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carver
3rd March 2008, 14:28
are cheesecutters really that bad?
no 8 wire fences that line just about every country road seem just as lethal, with their big strainer posts.
and what can be done about them.
i remember seeing a RSV-R that had gone through one, the rider was dead.
the thing is if you run wide into one, your going to get hurt.
And cheesecutters are on straight roads! (mainly)

Katman
3rd March 2008, 14:32
are cheesecutters really that bad?
no 8 wire fences that line just about every country road seem just as lethal, with their big strainer posts.
and what can be done about them.
i remember seeing a RSV-R that had gone through one, the rider was dead.
the thing is if you run wide into one, your going to get hurt.
And cheesecutters are on straight roads! (mainly)

Not the first time it has been pointed out. 'Twill fall on deaf ears I'm afraid.

Sidewinder
3rd March 2008, 14:37
are cheesecutters really that bad?
no 8 wire fences that line just about every country road seem just as lethal, with their big strainer posts.
and what can be done about them.
i remember seeing a RSV-R that had gone through one, the rider was dead.
the thing is if you run wide into one, your going to get hurt.
And cheesecutters are on straight roads! (mainly)

i totaly agree with you there hun.
and what about barbed wire and deer fences?

Disco Dan
3rd March 2008, 14:38
are cheesecutters really that bad?
no 8 wire fences that line just about every country road seem just as lethal, with their big strainer posts.
and what can be done about them.
i remember seeing a RSV-R that had gone through one, the rider was dead.
the thing is if you run wide into one, your going to get hurt.
And cheesecutters are on straight roads! (mainly)

Better get yourself one of these then so you feel safe.

Either that or we start a concentrated leaflet campaign and get farmers to replace their wire with 'break away' string instead. I'm sure the cows will be supportive.

While your at it there is a chip out of the curb near me, could rip an arm off if some poor sod slid along it and hit that.


Seriously - I understand where your coming from, but to be devils advocate - you really cant make the safety bubble stretch to cover the country... It's around you and thats it. I quite like it that way... doesn't mean I did not sign the petition though because I did.

swbarnett
4th March 2008, 01:33
The main problem that I see with cheese cutters is their intent. They are supposed to be a safety device and yet they're badly installed, won't stop a truck (or even a car sometimes) and kill motorcyclists.

Farm fences are not supposed to improve safety, there set back from the road and you never see one run along the centre of a two lane road or right on the edge of your lane.

In short, farmers aren't telling us that we're second class road users and our lives are worthless, Transit is.

White trash
4th March 2008, 04:29
I've thrown myself through a farmers fence at 200+kph and survived. The wire snapped. Wouldn't want to test the breaking point of a cheesecutter wire with a human body.

DEATH_INC.
4th March 2008, 04:34
Same, but not that fast. Been through a fence....but not planning on trying a cutter anytime soon...

carver
4th March 2008, 09:07
i see, thats impressive that some of you have been through farmers fences at such speed and survived!

Deano
4th March 2008, 09:09
Yeah why not add more hazards to the roads eh ? (note sarcasm)

Look at the overseas research. It's not rocket science.

There are safer (and cheaper long term) options available.

rudolph
4th March 2008, 09:11
There not up the middle of the motorway are they? there on farms you jackass

QMOTO
4th March 2008, 09:12
i totaly agree with you there hun.
and what about barbed wire and deer fences?



HUN ?? sheesh bloody poof

Deer fences are fine, good for around race tracks like Paeroa so must be good

All
4th March 2008, 09:14
I've thrown myself through a farmers fence at 200+kph and survived. The wire snapped. Wouldn't want to test the breaking point of a cheesecutter wire with a human body.

Damn! I won't be lining up to try that one.

carver
4th March 2008, 09:16
There not up the middle of the motorway are they? there on farms you jackass

hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway

Colapop
4th March 2008, 09:21
Cheesecutter barriers aren't made with no.8 wire though. They're constructed with wire rope. The breaking strain of wire rope is far greater than that of no.8 wire.

There is nothing that's going to make NZ roads perfectly safe, save having no-one use them. The anti-cheesecutter lobby is about trying to have the safest barriers (for all road users) installed. IF cheesecutters are going to be installed then they should be installed with the manufacturers reccomended median (3m) and not like along centenial highway (Coastal highway - Kapiti) where the median is at best 500mm.

Deano
4th March 2008, 12:20
hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway

Getting pushed/cut off into one by a cage ?

Ixion
4th March 2008, 12:21
Hit a few farm fences (not at warp speeds though, off road riding). They usually deflect or the posts break/pull out. Barbed wire ain't so bad, doesn't penetrate leather.

Other thing is, between farm fences and the road , is almost always a decent run off area. Which gives you a fighting chance to save it, or at least go down in relative safety. The cheesecutters you have zero space. They are right there a few inches from your leg.

(What you don't want to fall onto is an electric fence! DAMHIK)

fireball
4th March 2008, 12:42
I've thrown myself through a farmers fence at 200+kph and survived. The wire snapped. Wouldn't want to test the breaking point of a cheesecutter wire with a human body.

number 8 just stings a little eh :lol: i went through one as a kid had nice purple lines for months

sunhuntin
4th March 2008, 12:50
Getting pushed/cut off into one by a cage ?

or being on a group ride and having some dimrod go by on one wheel to prove hes the man? and then losing it over a bump sending innocent riders into a barrier

Sidewinder
4th March 2008, 12:52
HUN ?? sheesh bloody poof

Deer fences are fine, good for around race tracks like Paeroa so must be good

poof? damb u found out my secret...........

Sidewinder
4th March 2008, 12:55
hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway

running wide because most of these noobs cant go around corners on there fast bikes. pretty hard to hit the middle of the motorway and if you can do that your doing something realy fucking dumb

carver
4th March 2008, 14:02
or being on a group ride and having some dimrod go by on one wheel to prove hes the man? and then losing it over a bump sending innocent riders into a barrier

tell the world buddy

not many bumps on the motorway, and just as a fact, i have NEVER lost a wheelie, done em 2 up, stand ups, up to 130 kph, through the gearbox....

so cry me a river..carver did a wheelie..wahhhhh

Deano
4th March 2008, 14:48
or being on a group ride and having some dimrod go by on one wheel to prove hes the man? and then losing it over a bump sending innocent riders into a barrier

I've seen a dude nearly hit the wrb after a wheelie went wrong.

He pretty much WAS the man round these parts back then though....eh mate ?

WelshWizard
4th March 2008, 19:21
Originally Posted by rudolph
"There not up the middle of the motorway are they? there on farms you jackass"

Carver"hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway"

First there is no need for either to stoop the level of personal insults, both have there own belief, no matter how flawed we may think they are.

Wire fence on country roads have alway been a problem but in the main they don't tend to have concreted in Iron post holding them in place, and they also don't tend to be at the same tension as the WRBs, they also don't have the twisted strands that change the wire into a primitive form of saw.

As for cost the WRB,s are a cheap skate alternative to safety, as they only have a short life span when compared to concrete barriers, they fail in this country because they do not even comply with the original design that calls for 3.5 meters between the road lane and the barrier themselves, when in the close distances they are used on in particular the Souther Motorway, they end up slingshotting anything not soft, that hits it back into the following traffic, and not the outer lane , but some where between the two lanes. and if in the case of the crash in Wellington on the 4th March end up closing the motorway, as it was not economic to take down the WRBs to allow the traffic to pass.( Dom Post state it would take 8 men to remove a section of WRBs were a Concrete Barrier could have been removed by one man with a lorry and Hiab.) How much did it cost the economy with lost production of the people caught up in the snarl up the crash caused, LTNZ don't have to cover those cost so they don't give a Sh!t.

As for the fact that you say they are only on straight section ( thats bad enough in its self) but they are on the corners, and going wide is not the main reason for losing it, Nor is doing a wheele at 30KPH, you have to consider the main reason Car pulls out in front of you because they don't check their mirror, you then have to swerve or get side swiped, or front wheel blow out, ( which is more common than most think, mainly due to a precious crash and the road not being cleared correctly, or lorries shedding some of it load) there are loads more reasons for failing to hold your line on a corner.
If you want to check up on cost then go view the video at the following link
http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

Long term Concrete is cheaper and safer, and less costly to the economy of this country :dodge::angry2:

Deano
4th March 2008, 20:41
Nice post WW - clear and concise reasoning - why is it so difficult for SOME PEOPLE to understand though ?

Mike748
4th March 2008, 20:46
I haven't seen or looked for any info on these WRB's but for me the wire isn't the issue.
It's the support posts and to make it worse they're at such close spacings!

You have absolutely no chance of sliding through or bouncing off without hitting a post or two.

Concrete barriers are the way to go, no contest.:angry2:

I don't know how they got promoted but I bet it was political and not an engineering decision.:crazy:

All
4th March 2008, 21:35
First there is no need for either to stoop the level of personal insults, both have there own belief, no matter how flawed we may think they are.

Wire fence on country roads have alway been a problem but in the main they don't tend to have concreted in Iron post holding them in place, and they also don't tend to be at the same tension as the WRBs, they also don't have the twisted strands that change the wire into a primitive form of saw.

As for cost the WRB,s are a cheap skate alternative to safety, as they only have a short life span when compared to concrete barriers, they fail in this country because they do not even comply with the original design that calls for 3.5 meters between the road lane and the barrier themselves, when in the close distances they are used on in particular the Souther Motorway, they end up slingshotting anything not soft, that hits it back into the following traffic, and not the outer lane , but some where between the two lanes. and if in the case of the crash in Wellington on the 4th March end up closing the motorway, as it was not economic to take down the WRBs to allow the traffic to pass.( Dom Post state it would take 8 men to remove a section of WRBs were a Concrete Barrier could have been removed by one man with a lorry and Hiab.) How much did it cost the economy with lost production of the people caught up in the snarl up the crash caused, LTNZ don't have to cover those cost so they don't give a Sh!t.

As for the fact that you say they are only on straight section ( thats bad enough in its self) but they are on the corners, and going wide is not the main reason for losing it, Nor is doing a wheele at 30KPH, you have to consider the main reason Car pulls out in front of you because they don't check their mirror, you then have to swerve or get side swiped, or front wheel blow out, ( which is more common than most think, mainly due to a precious crash and the road not being cleared correctly, or lorries shedding some of it load) there are loads more reasons for failing to hold your line on a corner.
If you want to check up on cost then go view the video at the following link
http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

Long term Concrete is cheaper and safer, and less costly to the economy of this country :dodge::angry2:Since when has the government let good sense get in the way of policy making? ;)

All
4th March 2008, 21:36
Wire fence on country roads have alway been a problem but in the main they don't tend to have concreted in Iron post holding them in place, and they also don't tend to be at the same tension as the WRBs, they also don't have the twisted strands that change the wire into a primitive form of saw.

As for cost the WRB,s are a cheap skate alternative to safety, as they only have a short life span when compared to concrete barriers, they fail in this country because they do not even comply with the original design that calls for 3.5 meters between the road lane and the barrier themselves, when in the close distances they are used on in particular the Souther Motorway, they end up slingshotting anything not soft, that hits it back into the following traffic, and not the outer lane , but some where between the two lanes. and if in the case of the crash in Wellington on the 4th March end up closing the motorway, as it was not economic to take down the WRBs to allow the traffic to pass.( Dom Post state it would take 8 men to remove a section of WRBs were a Concrete Barrier could have been removed by one man with a lorry and Hiab.) How much did it cost the economy with lost production of the people caught up in the snarl up the crash caused, LTNZ don't have to cover those cost so they don't give a Sh!t.

As for the fact that you say they are only on straight section ( thats bad enough in its self) but they are on the corners, and going wide is not the main reason for losing it, Nor is doing a wheele at 30KPH, you have to consider the main reason Car pulls out in front of you because they don't check their mirror, you then have to swerve or get side swiped, or front wheel blow out, ( which is more common than most think, mainly due to a precious crash and the road not being cleared correctly, or lorries shedding some of it load) there are loads more reasons for failing to hold your line on a corner.
If you want to check up on cost then go view the video at the following link
http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

Long term Concrete is cheaper and safer, and less costly to the economy of this country :dodge::angry2:Since when has the government let good sense get in the way of policy making? ;)

Big Dog
5th March 2008, 07:57
hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway

Interesting.
You have started a debate, yet you have descended to personal attacks because your view was not universally accepted...
Surely if you had a real point to make instead of just trawling for laughs you would have had a logical, factual and civilized answer.

What I hear when I read the above post is, I concede my point has no valid defence so I shall move on to a personal attack.

sunhuntin
5th March 2008, 08:06
tell the world buddy

not many bumps on the motorway, and just as a fact, i have NEVER lost a wheelie, done em 2 up, stand ups, up to 130 kph, through the gearbox....

so cry me a river..carver did a wheelie..wahhhhh

okay... so you are the man. wow... 130k, running the risk of the pillion sliding off the back. what an amazing awesome guy! the guiness world records should dedicate a page to you, o amazing wheelie puller :whocares:

you honestly think anyone bar yourself is impressed by that? :lol:

Big Dog
5th March 2008, 08:13
running wide because most of these noobs cant go around corners on there fast bikes. pretty hard to hit the middle of the motorway and if you can do that your doing something realy fucking dumb
If people are having issues making it around corners I urge them to seek help from people who can give them guidance in how to do this better.
Taking down all the fences in NZ will not remove the problem of they either lack the skills to take the corner or the judgement to make the corner.
Some will be lucky enough to learn their lessons from fences, others will have to do so with moving vehicles.

Fear is a valid learning tool.

I have seen a fair few vehicles hit median barriers and for that matter fences.
Luckily I have never seen a bike do it to a barrier.

The vast majority of the vehicles that hit barriers were because they had a mechanical fault or there was an undue interference by other drivers before hand. I.E. the driver of the vehicle that hit the barrier was not behaving strangely or illegally.

All of the vehicles that I have seen hit wire barriers have been write offs.
Most of those I have seen hit other kinds of barrier the car was repairable.

Personally I have never thought that the wire rope barriers were an intelligent option. There is flawed mentality in their installation.
I have seen photos of an MX5 that made it to the other side.
Fortunately I was being shown by the driver.
Nope no a pillar.
Nope no steering column.
Yes the top 3 inches were pushed flat or severed.

The guy was feeling very lucky to be alive after being shunted by a faster moving vehicle.

All
5th March 2008, 08:15
you honestly think anyone bar yourself is impressed by that? :lol:Actually, I was impressed. :yes:

Not necessarily very sensible, but it would involve a bit of skill at least.

sunhuntin
5th March 2008, 08:17
Actually, I was impressed. :yes:

Not necessarily very sensible, but it would involve a bit of skill at least.

definately not sensible... specially on a group ride where such antics were requested be kept for AFTER the ride. how hard a rule is that to follow?

MSTRS
5th March 2008, 08:49
No matter 'your' personal view on barriers in general, that video link from WelshWizard proves what is claimed by him, me and many others...if a barrier is necessary, make it one that works for all motorists, and is cost effective from installation right through its life. Ok - it doesn't mention WRB, but the deformation and repairs reqd to Armco along with the danger to us from the posts is just the same. Can't argue with that.

carver
5th March 2008, 17:18
definately not sensible... specially on a group ride where such antics were requested be kept for AFTER the ride. how hard a rule is that to follow?

its hard.....im surprised more people didn't do em

Ryder
5th March 2008, 18:07
hey homo, whats the greater chance, running wide, or crossing the middle of a motorway

whats wrong with you? stick to the facts matey! we all have a right to our own opinions here and just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need resort to name bashing!

Ryder
5th March 2008, 18:17
First there is no need for either to stoop the level of personal insults, both have there own belief, no matter how flawed we may think they are.

Wire fence on country roads have alway been a problem but in the main they don't tend to have concreted in Iron post holding them in place, and they also don't tend to be at the same tension as the WRBs, they also don't have the twisted strands that change the wire into a primitive form of saw.

As for cost the WRB,s are a cheap skate alternative to safety, as they only have a short life span when compared to concrete barriers, they fail in this country because they do not even comply with the original design that calls for 3.5 meters between the road lane and the barrier themselves, when in the close distances they are used on in particular the Souther Motorway, they end up slingshotting anything not soft, that hits it back into the following traffic, and not the outer lane , but some where between the two lanes. and if in the case of the crash in Wellington on the 4th March end up closing the motorway, as it was not economic to take down the WRBs to allow the traffic to pass.( Dom Post state it would take 8 men to remove a section of WRBs were a Concrete Barrier could have been removed by one man with a lorry and Hiab.) How much did it cost the economy with lost production of the people caught up in the snarl up the crash caused, LTNZ don't have to cover those cost so they don't give a Sh!t.

As for the fact that you say they are only on straight section ( thats bad enough in its self) but they are on the corners, and going wide is not the main reason for losing it, Nor is doing a wheele at 30KPH, you have to consider the main reason Car pulls out in front of you because they don't check their mirror, you then have to swerve or get side swiped, or front wheel blow out, ( which is more common than most think, mainly due to a precious crash and the road not being cleared correctly, or lorries shedding some of it load) there are loads more reasons for failing to hold your line on a corner.
If you want to check up on cost then go view the video at the following link
http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

Long term Concrete is cheaper and safer, and less costly to the economy of this country :dodge::angry2:

WRB's kill!...end of story!

they are not just in the centre of the motorways etc but they are also on the outside in some areas. furthermore are also located around bends/corners!

if you land in them for whatever reason you are dead! they are not used for safety, they are used to cut costs :nono:

Squiggles
5th March 2008, 18:20
I can see where your coming from, but my concern with it is how they are being installed yet do not meet the purpose for which they are intended. Also, installing them on the outside straight roads and especially in corners is just dumb

rphenix
5th March 2008, 18:22
i totaly agree with you there hun.
and what about barbed wire and deer fences?

Unless your aiming for a deer fence pole them things have quite a bit of flex plus its quite easy to get through the rectangular gaps Im betting with a bit of speed youd snap one or two wires and tumble through quite easily.

I grew up on a farm that had red deer I remember the time a bull decided it wanted to charge me in the next paddock I dived right through one of those gaps in the deer fence then bent the wire back into place so dad wouldnt notice.

As for those wire cables designed to hold cars from going over the edge hit them at any speed and lets face it, your going around it, not through it.

Ryder
5th March 2008, 18:37
I can see where your coming from, but my concern with it is how they are being installed yet do not meet the purpose for which they are intended. Also, installing them on the outside straight roads and especially in corners is just dumb

no they dont...when will they ever?! transit doesnt seem to care about such things.

skidMark
5th March 2008, 19:00
I've thrown myself through a farmers fence at 200+kph and survived. The wire snapped. Wouldn't want to test the breaking point of a cheesecutter wire with a human body.

Yeah poor dan tested that one and the body gave in first :crazy:

Patar
7th March 2008, 15:30
You know, there's something that i find funny.

http://www.transit.govt.nz/about/awards/safety.jsp


The project won the Road Engineering category of the Road Safety Innovation and Achievement Awards, funded by the Road Safety Trust and administered by Land Transport New Zealand.


Does anyone else see the flaw with LTNZ patting transit on the back?

WelshWizard
7th March 2008, 16:32
You know, there's something that i find funny.

http://www.transit.govt.nz/about/awards/safety.jsp




Does anyone else see the flaw with LTNZ patting transit on the back?

Man I had a look at those WRBs, could they get any more posts in if they tried, the concrete foundations of each post are nearly touching each other, why the hell did they bother, they could have made it a solid wall of posts with little effort, instead they have made it a death trap for any motorcyclist who is unseated and slides towards them, not much chance of loosing a leg or arm this is going to a game of two or three parts minimum.


most likely a hell of a lot more parts

Strider
14th March 2008, 15:08
At the end of the day. All the govement care about is saving money so they can go on overseas trips at the tax payers expience.

Ryder
19th March 2008, 20:18
At the end of the day. All the govement care about is saving money so they can go on overseas trips at the tax payers expience.

uh huh...thats not likely to change either.

Big Dog
19th March 2008, 23:37
uh huh...thats not likely to change either.

Snipers. Snipers are the answer.:wari:

Ryder
5th April 2008, 12:30
Snipers. Snipers are the answer.:wari:
so tempting..... :niceone:

Tumbles
5th May 2008, 22:37
are cheesecutters really that bad?
no 8 wire fences that line just about every country road seem just as lethal, with their big strainer posts.
and what can be done about them.
i remember seeing a RSV-R that had gone through one, the rider was dead.
the thing is if you run wide into one, your going to get hurt.
And cheesecutters are on straight roads! (mainly)

I think the main issue is that Cheese Cutters are used as median barriers on busy roads. Busy roads = far greater chance of motorcyclist accidents by people changing lanes, nose to tail or a raft of other reasons. They are basically installing these things on the roads MOST likely to experience motorcyclist crashes.

I ride to work each day in Wellington and the amount they are used down here now is just crazy. Even riding real conservative and avoiding people's blind spot I've still had three separate incidents of only avoiding a cheese cutter impact by less than a foot clearance and instant reactions due to idiots changing lanes at the last second. These things are an absolute death trap.

The next person who is killed by these things, their family should bring a private manslaughter prosecution against the CEO (or whatever their position is called) of TRANZIT. It has already been proven in court that if you know of a problem and can do something about it, if someone dies due to that problem, you can be held criminally liable. Its affecting the military in a big way. Im no lawyer, but I would put money on being able to prosecute for this.

WelshWizard
6th May 2008, 19:27
I think the main issue is that Cheese Cutters are used as median barriers on busy roads. Busy roads = far greater chance of motorcyclist accidents by people changing lanes, nose to tail or a raft of other reasons. They are basically installing these things on the roads MOST likely to experience motorcyclist crashes.

I ride to work each day in Wellington and the amount they are used down here now is just crazy. Even riding real conservative and avoiding people's blind spot I've still had three separate incidents of only avoiding a cheese cutter impact by less than a foot clearance and instant reactions due to idiots changing lanes at the last second. These things are an absolute death trap.

The next person who is killed by these things, their family should bring a private manslaughter prosecution against the CEO (or whatever their position is called) of TRANZIT. It has already been proven in court that if you know of a problem and can do something about it, if someone dies due to that problem, you can be held criminally liable. Its affecting the military in a big way. Im no lawyer, but I would put money on being able to prosecute for this.


THe HelenGrad lot took that right away even Osh can't do Transit now because they have been protected from legal action by the Beehive

stormy1
24th October 2008, 16:05
IF cheesecutters are going to be installed then they should be installed with the manufacturers reccomended median (3m) and not like along centenial highway (Coastal highway - Kapiti) where the median is at best 500mm.

Ok, time to wade into a thread that invokes strong feelings (he takes a deep breath). As far as I am aware when it comes to centennial highway (and my comments only relate to this section of road), what was the alternative? People (yeah ok peps in cars but they are still NZers) were killiing themselves along this strecth of highway by crossing the centreline into the paths of oncoming vehicles. Have any of you measured the width of a concrete barrier at the foot of them (widest part)? No way could you fit this type of barrier and have sufficient lane width left along this section of SH plus there is the well known effect of "shy lines". This is where if you put in a solid barrier, people naturally travel a lot further to the left, once again needing wider lanes.

Yes Cheesecutters are not biker friendly, nor is a car crossing the centreline into a bike along this stretch of highway. Either way I think the biker is going to come off second best.

Now for the insults?

MSTRS
24th October 2008, 16:11
Now for the insults?

No. You are entitled to your opinion, and at least you attempt to explain the reason you believe what you do.
You are wrong though. Sure concrete may appear to take more room at the base, but it doesn't move when struck. Where do you think the wires etc go, when the manufacturer specifies a 3m flex area each side? Not to mention the shattered bits of post that fly all over the place.

Dave-
24th October 2008, 16:28
they stop the majority of stuff from crashing into the majority of stuff comming the other way at a price that cant be beat.

following from wire rope barriers I think we should also bubble wrap cars and wear 3ft thick padding incase we fall off.

power poles too should be removed or modified and made out of jelly so when stuff crashes into them no one is injured.

swbarnett
24th October 2008, 16:39
Ok, time to wade into a thread that invokes strong feelings (he takes a deep breath). As far as I am aware when it comes to centennial highway (and my comments only relate to this section of road), what was the alternative? People (yeah ok peps in cars but they are still NZers) were killiing themselves along this strecth of highway by crossing the centreline into the paths of oncoming vehicles. Have any of you measured the width of a concrete barrier at the foot of them (widest part)? No way could you fit this type of barrier and have sufficient lane width left along this section of SH plus there is the well known effect of "shy lines". This is where if you put in a solid barrier, people naturally travel a lot further to the left, once again needing wider lanes.
The trouble is that, according to the manufacturers instructions, WRBs require a 6m corridor to work properly. This is a lot wider than concrete.

I wonder if anyone has thought of just putting up those flimsy centre-line marker poles. These would not stop loss of control incidents but they would certainly have a psychological affect on drivers that are prone to overtake in the wrong place.

Quasievil
24th October 2008, 17:20
power poles too should be removed or modified and made out of jelly so when stuff crashes into them no one is injured.

thats stupid the warm light will melt the jelly, maybe a refridgerated pole system with a cold kind of gas in it would work ?

anyway if they are strawberry they are fucked cause I for a start would eat them

raftn
24th October 2008, 17:30
thats stupid the warm light will melt the jelly, maybe a refridgerated pole system with a cold kind of gas in it would work ?

anyway if they are strawberry they are fucked cause I for a start would eat them

I prefere the orange flavoured jelly! Yummmmmmmmm............I dont think jelly powere poles would worl very well, i would take them home and put them in the bath....that would be fun!

swbarnett
25th October 2008, 22:15
It has been said that WRBs aren't as bad as power poles. The justification being that there have been more deaths and serious injuries (DSI) from collisions with power poles than there have been from collisions with WRBs.

The problem with this argument is that power poles line a great deal more of NZs roads than WRBs do. It would be more accurate to compare DSIs as relating to WRBs and power poles were compared on a per km basis.

MSTRS
26th October 2008, 09:03
Plus statistics over time. Powerpoles have been around 'forever' - not so WRB. As the saying goes...If it hasn't happened yet, give it time
And plus, with powerpoles there are almost always options, with the big gaps between them. Where is this option with cheesecutter?

slimjim
26th October 2008, 09:20
more people drown ...than what these will cause.....yet we all enjoy a day at the beach...as we do travelling in vehicles of any make....

stormy1
26th October 2008, 11:07
Plus statistics over time. Powerpoles have been around 'forever' - not so WRB. As the saying goes...If it hasn't happened yet, give it time
And plus, with powerpoles there are almost always options, with the big gaps between them. Where is this option with cheesecutter?

The problem with power poles (and trees for that matter) is a thing called the Possum Syndrome. You look at the object that you dont want to hit, and end up driving/riding straight into it!

MSTRS
26th October 2008, 11:20
The problem with power poles (and trees for that matter) is a thing called the Possum Syndrome. You look at the object that you dont want to hit, and end up driving/riding straight into it!

True, that. The other old saying "Look where you are going, 'cause you'll go where you're looking" covers that. At least there is a choice of where to look (gaps). No gaps with a continuous barrier.
I still won't be convinced that a fence that slices and dices bodies is a safety feature. And when they are installed on the road edge AND down the middle...

WelshWizard
27th October 2008, 19:27
The way they are installing WRB's it won't be long before there are more WRB posts along side the roads of NZ than Power poles, and as MSTRS states give it time

Mom
27th October 2008, 19:46
And when they are installed on the road edge AND down the middle...

*shudders*

Scarey thought. One worry of mine is that these WRB's are appearing in the oddest places. Along a bit of pristine coastal highway on the East Cape, a 50m (approx.) length of WRB preventing a fall of a metre or so to the beach, though it may be to prevent whales from stranding there for all I know.

Ok, perhaps cars/bikes have gone off that edge and onto the beach, perhaps people have been injured in the process, hence the WRB. Now a car will be slowed, and perhaps stopped from flying onto the beach (hope the edge of the road is wide enough to stop a car from falling under the WRB when the posts have gone (unlikely as there appeared to be almost no "shoulder" beyond the posts). The poor hapless biker that gets a sudden downdraft of wind off the cliffs above and is blowen against the wire will be dead, or at best maimed for life.

Much better option, NOT!

reofix
27th October 2008, 20:01
lets face it ... the most dangerous thing to run into on our roads are the 1500kg hunks of steel coming head on at us at 100 k just a few feet away acroos the white line

MSTRS
28th October 2008, 08:41
Reality check? *Someone* needs one, alright.
People are the problem, on most roads. People. Some of whom drive/ride and cause problems for themselves or others. And some of whom think that steel posts and braided wire fences are a safety initiative. And despite all the data from all over the world, continue to install as an appropriate form of protection.

Vagabond
28th October 2008, 16:42
Was just on a South African site looking up some old school mates and came across a section dedicated to "Bike Safe" and they had these photo's which I promptly stole. I know I read somwhere that all info and or pictures will help so they're yours to do what you want to with them.:blank:

Katman
29th October 2008, 18:10
Was just on a South African site looking up some old school mates and came across a section dedicated to "Bike Safe" and they had these photo's which I promptly stole. I know I read somwhere that all info and or pictures will help so they're yours to do what you want to with them.:blank:

Let me guess - a motorcyclist pulling wheelstands on a GSXR1000 (with a weakened steering head from landing too many wheelstands) right alongside a wire rope barrier?

Vagabond
29th October 2008, 19:31
Let me guess - a motorcyclist pulling wheelstands on a GSXR1000 (with a weakened steering head from landing too many wheelstands) right alongside a wire rope barrier?

:doh: Now ain't that jumping to conclusions!
Quote from below pic: What we DONT like to see...

This was the aftermath of a fall during a morning bike run with a bunch of mates. The rider broke his arse but was otherwise unhurt (save the obvious scrapes and bruises)Added October 15



Maybe he lost it braking for a cager? who knows cause I don't :nono:

Katman
29th October 2008, 20:13
:doh: Now ain't that jumping to conclusions!


That's why I called it a guess.

(But I'm usually pretty good at guessing games).

Katman
30th October 2008, 09:30
It appears that I've upset the Hawkes Bay branch of the Katman Fan Club again.

MSTRS & yungatart, are you suggesting that it's better to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the fact that the only death caused by WRBs in New Zealand can be directly attributed to irresponsible behaviour?

MSTRS
30th October 2008, 09:46
It appears that I've upset the Hawkes Bay branch of the Katman Fan Club again.

MSTRS & yungatart, are you suggesting that it's better to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the fact that the only death caused by WRBs in New Zealand can be directly attributed to irresponsible behaviour?

You were there? You've seen all the crash reports? We know the bike is in 2 pieces - how it got there is speculation. And it is highly insensitive of you (or anyone) to make that type of assertion when the dead rider's father and friends are on here reading it. Pull your head in, and put yourself in others' shoes for a change.
Besides, why red me when you agreed with a post of mine in another thread?

Katman
30th October 2008, 09:53
Besides, why red me when you agreed with a post of mine in another thread?

What red?

The only one I'm aware of is the one you sent me.

Katman
30th October 2008, 09:57
And I'm sick of the standard 'veil of secrecy' that gets thrown over accidents like this one (and the one that killed Bruce and Darryl).

The only good that can come out of incidents like this is that people learn from them. In order to do that they need to be discussed honestly.

MSTRS
30th October 2008, 10:51
What red?

The only one I'm aware of is the one you sent me.

This one...
Your memory must be going.

MSTRS
30th October 2008, 10:57
And I'm sick of the standard 'veil of secrecy' that gets thrown over accidents like this one (and the one that killed Bruce and Darryl).

The only good that can come out of incidents like this is that people learn from them. In order to do that they need to be discussed honestly.

I agree. But only when the facts are released, and then with sensitivity for those that were close to the dead. It is possible to have a frank exchange without upsetting people.

Katman
30th October 2008, 11:13
This one...
Your memory must be going.

My apologies - it was certainly meant to be green.

(And I wasn't even drinking last night).

MSTRS
30th October 2008, 12:06
My apologies - it was certainly meant to be green.


I thought so, apology accepted. But I did mean the one I gave you...

Katman
30th October 2008, 12:17
But I did mean the one I gave you...

I'd expect nothing less.

:msn-wink:

enigma51
30th October 2008, 13:10
I'd expect nothing less.

:msn-wink:

Fucking hell you too want a private room or something.

You two boyfriends or something?

Murray
30th October 2008, 13:29
Fucking hell you too want a private room or something.

You two boyfriends or something?

You know mentors like to stick together!!! yuck, the thought of it, how demented

enigma51
30th October 2008, 14:14
You know mentors like to stick together!!! yuck, the thought of it, how demented

does seem that way

Big Zappa
30th October 2008, 17:11
was the alternative?

at least stick the plastic guards around the bare wire like they have in France/Belgium.

I was discussing the other day going down there with buckets of red paint and broken down mannequin parts, and arranging them creatively around the WRB before a big long weekend, so that cagers get the point!

PrincessBandit
30th October 2008, 17:20
I was discussing the other day going down there with buckets of red paint and broken down mannequin parts, and arranging them creatively around the WRB before a big long weekend, so that cagers get the point!

You'd have to include some bike parts otherwise most of them wouldn't have a clue what you meant. If I wasn't a rider and saw a display like that I'd be going :scratch: Yes, call me a thicko if you want but it would have gone above my head (as i said if I only drove cars and wasn't a rider).

saxet
1st November 2008, 09:17
About 30 years ago my parents dragged me along to the Defensive Driving course they were attendin-no baby sitter,I was about 10, as a kid who was already into mcycles and was interested to here even then that cheesecuuter barriers were considered dangerous to mcycles. Anyone who says they're not has'nt researched it e.g.Transit (or thet're just lyin.)
Hey Katman do even you ride exactly to the road code.Thats the only way'in theory to avoid an accident and even the people who wrote and enforce it don't follow it. Accidents arent always our own fault.
Back to barriers, they were designed to reduce the cosequences of an accident. I would call shreedin the vehical and operater an escalation of the accident.

jafar
1st November 2008, 09:50
You know mentors like to stick together!!! yuck, the thought of it, how demented

DMNTD :eek:

carver
9th November 2008, 18:35
last night when doing 2 up stand ups, with a pillion sitting on the race cowl, both a bit drunk, doing 170kph, the cheesecutters were good, the reflectors ment i could see where they were, (waikato expressway)

thanks cheesecutters

madmartin
16th November 2008, 21:14
yeah, they've just put them all up the top of the wangamoas in nelson, think i would've rather gone off into the trees, even armco looks more inviting

Katman
16th November 2008, 21:18
yeah, they've just put them all up the top of the wangamoas in nelson, think i would've rather gone off into the trees, even armco looks more inviting

Even gravel (or trees) on the side of the road isn't "inviting".

The idea is to avoid close encounters with all those extraneous obstacles.

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)
16th November 2008, 22:16
yeah, they've just put them all up the top of the wangamoas in nelson, think i would've rather gone off into the trees, even armco looks more inviting

Holy shit - that's scary - you would have a better chance at living if you went thru the trees - and in winter it has lots of black ice - lots of pea gravel - to a newbie at the time in the mid of winter (doh) it was an interesting ride - ignorance was bliss.

Katman
17th November 2008, 07:35
Maybe their intention is to eventually line all of New Zealands roads with them in an effort to discourage motorcyclists from using the road as their own private racetrack.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1812570&postcount=1

DougieNZ
17th November 2008, 10:24
This is a pretty difficult topic for me.

I would like to use the centennial highway north of Wellington as an example. There were quite a few fatalities on this road before the WRB was installed.

Media reports recently suggest that these barriers are saving lives.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4743382a6479.html

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4604082a6000.html

Obviously Transit are putting them in becuase they are cheaper to install than the other type (forgetting about overall costs etc etc). otherwise why would we bother. There is plenty of proof that these barriers are saving lives. If your family members' life was saved by a WRB, would you still feel the same?

Maybe a campaign to have them retro fitted to make them more biker firendly would have more effect?

Also, like "charity" calls I would say that if a particular incident is being used to strenghten calls for a partaclar issue, that the full facts of this incident(s) should be disclosed (including speed, reasons for mechanical/bike failure etc etc). Then (like the charity) you could make your mind up on wheter to support the cause or not.

swbarnett
17th November 2008, 16:01
This is a pretty difficult topic for me.

I would like to use the centennial highway north of Wellington as an example. There were quite a few fatalities on this road before the WRB was installed.

Media reports recently suggest that these barriers are saving lives.
I have no doubt that they are. The problem is that there are other solution that will save more lives. Including motorcycles.

Does anyone know if the problem is loss of control or dick-head overtaking on this stretch of road (to stick with this example)? If the problem is overtaking then non-lethal centre marker posts (the kind that just bends when you drive over them) would probably have a psychological affect on driver behaviour and stop most of the inappropriate overtaking. There's no need for a solid barrier at all.


To put this issue into perspective - let's suppose that a barrier was installed that saved the lives of all but Maori people. How long do you think that would last?

SARGE
17th November 2008, 16:35
are you suggesting that it's better to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the fact that the only death caused by WRBs in New Zealand can be directly attributed to irresponsible behaviour?

first off Katman.. you were not there.

second..can i assume that in all your time riding, you have never engaged in so-called "irresponsible behaviour"..how would your partner/ parents react if you were chopped in to mince by these things?.. then had someone on a public forum call you a douchbag because of it?

third..Dans parents are good friends of mine and i respect them greatly. Dans mother is taking this very hard (as would any mother)..

i was honored to be able to participate in the ride and to carry the coffin..

i sold Dan the bike and it hit me very hard..i was expecting to be partly blamed for the accident, but Kat wrapped her arms around me at the funeral and cried in to my coat..

Dan was a good kid..sure ..a bit of a squid sometimes, but show me anyone who hasnt been at one time of another, .. i know i certainly have been in the past.. have you? .. hell man.. i've done shit that should have killed me 100 times over , but im either the luckiest motherfucker on the planet, or Satan hasnt got my room ready yet

Dan was taken too young by the Gubbmints greed and irresponsibility..as well as his own "youthful exuberance"

a little respect for our fallen please

no red rep from me bro.. thats not how i roll


as far as Carver and the Moron Few

i wont be coming to your funerals bro..Carver...youre an arrogant loudmouth who's not as good as he thinks.. it WILL catch up with you dude..




the Grim Reaper is a member of KB and he's takin notes..

NighthawkNZ
17th November 2008, 17:14
tell the world buddy

not many bumps on the motorway, and just as a fact, i have NEVER lost a wheelie, done em 2 up, stand ups, up to 130 kph, through the gearbox....

so cry me a river..carver did a wheelie..wahhhhh

and you want to be a mentor... ???

Mom
17th November 2008, 17:24
Does anyone know if the problem is loss of control or dick-head overtaking on this stretch of road (to stick with this example)

Head on collisions for whatever reason on any road kill people. Sometimes median barriers are required to be installed to save us from ourselves.

These barriers have demonstratively saved lives since they were installed. No arguments there. No bikers have been killed hitting them there either.

The issue that disturbs me is the fact that the cheapest upfront option seems to be the ONLY one regardless of the safety of ALL road users.

Bikers are vulnerable, WRB's increase our risk in a way we can not manage ourselves. They are dangerous, they kill and main bikers and they dont stop heavy vehicles from crossing them.

In the cited example they have saved lives...ergo they are fine. I have argued that one with a few people in the know. They could of course cover the posts so bikers are less likely to be chopped limb from limb on contact, but there is the rub, why should they?

SARGE
17th November 2008, 17:30
and you want to be a mentor... ???

mentor??????????

Grahameeboy
17th November 2008, 17:37
Dan was a good kid..sure ..a bit of a squid sometimes, but show me anyone who hasnt been at one time of another, .. i know i certainly have been in the past.. have you? .. hell man.. i've done shit that should have killed me 100 times over , but im either the luckiest motherfucker on the planet, or Satan hasnt got my room ready yet

Dan was taken too young by the Gubbmints greed and irresponsibility..as well as his own "youthful exuberance"



I rode with Dan a few times and he was not stupid...he was not a loudmouth and was an all round nice guy.

Not sure I agree that he was taken by the Govt's greed. A bit harsh I think and to be honest we can only speculate the outcome had there been no cheesecutters...it was a straight piece of road after all.

I mean do we blame farmers for leaving crap on a countrylane..no cause as bikers we should be aware of these hazards...not sure where I was going on that one...ah yes, we have to take responsibility for our exuberance...it what being young is all about...I fell down a mountain when 18 and was lucky....the weatherman said it would not snow...we got caught in a whiteout...cannot blame the weatherman.

We ride bikes, we accept a risk...

To be honest since Dan's accident I have not heard of any other incidents so I am not sure what the safety issue is..sorry Mom..I expect a armour glove in the bollocks for saying that but lets not let what happen to Dan create a storm in a tea cup...:bye:

SARGE
17th November 2008, 17:44
I rode with Dan a few times and he was not stupid...he was not a loudmouth and was an all round nice guy.

Not sure I agree that he was taken by the Govt's greed. A bit harsh I think and to be honest we can only speculate the outcome had there been no cheesecutters...it was a straight piece of road after all.
:


nah GB.. never said Dan was a loudmouth.. please re-read my post

and what would YOU call it??.. they put these things in because of the cost.... i'll happily give up the dole- bloggers payments to fix this shit,,, hey ..theres an idea.. cheap labor.. get prisoners and dole bloggers to pour the cement barriers..nothing on TV in the afternoon anyway

Grahameeboy
17th November 2008, 17:50
nah GB.. never said Dan was a loudmouth.. please re-read my post

and what would YOU call it??.. they put these things in because of the cost.... i'll happily give up the dole- bloggers payments to fix this shit,,, hey ..theres an idea.. cheap labor.. get prisoners and dole bloggers to pour the cement barriers..nothing on TV in the afternoon anyway

Never said you did was just saying how I saw him....say compared to Craver.

I dunno what I would call it...mmm...not the best idea....

NighthawkNZ
17th November 2008, 17:59
mentor??????????

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=85867

Katman
17th November 2008, 18:08
first off Katman.. you were not there.


Like I've said before - it doesn't take a rocket scientist.

At the time of the accident it was widely reported to the public that excessive speed was a governing factor. We, on here, were well aware of Dan's penchant for performing high speed wheel stands. The effort to make Dan the poster child for the anti WRB campaign is where any hope of widespread public support was lost. The general public already view us as a bunch of dickheads who deserve everything we get.

It is most definitely not my intention to cause anyone further needless anguish but the lessons that we all need to learn from this are of such a magnitude that it would be remiss of us not to discuss it openly and honestly.

road king
17th November 2008, 18:53
To put this issue into perspective - let's suppose that a barrier was installed that saved the lives of all but Maori people. How long do you think that would last?

bloody good point

carver
17th November 2008, 19:58
as far as Carver and the Moron Few

i wont be coming to your funerals bro..Carver...youre an arrogant loudmouth who's not as good as he thinks.. it WILL catch up with you dude..




the Grim Reaper is a member of KB and he's takin notes..

i love this, you know for sure that im not that good!
and you can predict the future, so, tell me...

where was i at 7pm today?


and you want to be a mentor... ???

yeah, why not eh, im honest, the best type!


Like I've said before - it doesn't take a rocket scientist.

At the time of the accident it was widely reported to the public that excessive speed was a governing factor. We, on here, were well aware of Dan's penchant for performing high speed wheel stands. The effort to make Dan the poster child for the anti WRB campaign is where any hope of widespread public support was lost. The general public already view us as a bunch of dickheads who deserve everything we get.

It is most definitely not my intention to cause anyone further needless anguish but the lessons that we all need to learn from this are of such a magnitude that it would be remiss of us not to discuss it openly and honestly.

i agree with what you have said here, and i always felt that it was the case.

alot of people have put forward he was not doing wheelstands, but from what i saw, and i do alot of high speed wheelstands myself, i agree with katnanna

SARGE
17th November 2008, 20:17
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=85867

holy shit.. youre 'aving a larf aye?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

SARGE
17th November 2008, 20:21
i love this, you know for sure that im not that good!
and you can predict the future, so, tell me...

where was i at 7pm today?



ive seen your vids squid-boy..

and yes.. in your case i CAN see the future..

head on into a car while passing on a blind corner



then some media cunt is gonna call you a " Biker" and tar us all with the same brush

douchbag

carver
17th November 2008, 20:25
ive seen your vids squid-boy..

and yes.. in your case i CAN see the future..

head on into a car while passing on a blind corner



then some media cunt is gonna call you a " Biker" and tar us all with the same brush

douchbag

didnt you leave this site?
what you think of the vids?

i have never passed a car in a blind corner on video (from memory)

show it to me.

oh waaaaaahhhh, a biker dies, and we all get bagged.

though a guy like you could take it.

i take it all the time.

i think you have me confused for skidmark!

what should i place a bet on next mr soothsayer!

i want to make some easy coin!

NighthawkNZ
17th November 2008, 20:25
holy shit.. youre 'aving a larf aye?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

I was... and still am... :blink:

SARGE
17th November 2008, 20:30
Like I've said before - it doesn't take a rocket scientist.

At the time of the accident it was widely reported to the public that excessive speed was a governing factor. We, on here, were well aware of Dan's penchant for performing high speed wheel stands. The effort to make Dan the poster child for the anti WRB campaign is where any hope of widespread public support was lost. The general public already view us as a bunch of dickheads who deserve everything we get.


im not tryin to make anyone a posterboy..i just think there are better ways to die than getting turned into a kebab by a government that would rather save money than lives.. the goddamn things wont stop a car from going through..are they just there so we can see the pretty flowers?


ive seen dismembered bodies.. have you?

NighthawkNZ
17th November 2008, 20:34
ive seen dismembered bodies.. have you?

Unfortunately I have... a few times... :(

SARGE
17th November 2008, 20:39
didnt you leave this site?
what you think of the vids?

i have never passed a car in a blind corner on video (from memory)

show it to me.

oh waaaaaahhhh, a biker dies, and we all get bagged.

though a guy like you could take it.

i take it all the time.

i think you have me confused for skidmark!

what should i place a bet on next mr soothsayer!

i want to make some easy coin!


i'll bet your the next contestant on Sarge's Iggy List

oh look.. i win..

**click**

douchbag

carver
17th November 2008, 20:57
i'll bet your the next contestant on Sarge's Iggy List

oh look.. i win..

**click**

douchbag

what ever makes you feel better

MSTRS
18th November 2008, 08:11
... The effort to make Dan the poster child for the anti WRB campaign ....

No such effort was ever made. His death was used to illustrate what bikers have been saying for years - that horrific injuries/death would happen if a biker should hit that shit.
What is so hard to understand about that? The exposed wires and posts are deadly. It is proven fact.
We know these barriers have saved many lives, that is not in dispute. Perhaps they have even saved a biker or 2...but only by preventing the other vehicle from crossing over. Cross overs happen for all sorts of reasons, but however it happens, should a biker do it, he is most likely dead. That is why Europe and Britain are removing these nasty things.
And just in case you weren't paying attention...the campaign is not about removing them. It is asking that no more be installed. That, and a way be found to make the existing ones safer for bikers.

WelshWizard
18th November 2008, 15:53
Let me guess - a motorcyclist pulling wheelstands on a GSXR1000 (with a weakened steering head from landing too many wheelstands) right alongside a wire rope barrier?

Without the facts, who knows what happened, I lost a mate while living in South Africa, while he was riding his bike on the national road from Cape Town to Somerset West, he was riding a Suzuki at less than 120 Ks ( 120K's being the legal speed limit for that road) not the fault of the bike or the rider, as he was caught by the South Easter which picked his bike up and dropped him over the Central barrier in front of an oncoming Lorry. ( in Cape Town it is common for the council to put ropes from lamp post to lamp post and you often have photos of pedestrian holding on while being blown by the South Easter, feet in the air. so without knowing why its just casting crappola on the M/C rider in South Africa.





MSTRS & yungatart, are you suggesting that it's better to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the fact that the only death caused by WRBs in New Zealand can be directly attributed to irresponsible behaviour?

Once again jumping to conclusion when not all the fact are out. from what I know Speed was not the issue in this crash, nor was vision, most riders even at 80K's would have ended the same way, it will all come out at the inquest, and the Cops are in for a surprise with this one.

MSTRS
18th November 2008, 15:56
...it will all come out at the inquest...

Any news on when?

WelshWizard
19th November 2008, 16:14
It will not be for some time yet.