"beginners" race class ideas?

[FROSTY]

Ok hypethetical question here.
You wanted to offer a beginners race class aimed squarely at the 150 SS folk as a next step up or at someone with an under 10k budget looking to get into the sport.
Clean slate forgetting any existing race classes what would you propose.?
What would the class rules be?

[R6_kid]

I am under the impression that Moriwaki has released their MD250R (or something like that) which is essentially a GP125 frame with a 250 four stroke dirt bike based engine in it. They are around $12k out of the box ready to race. It's apparently the future of the MotoGP support classes so why not get into it now and build up some NZ talent for the world stage.

Rules for the class?

No mods on the bikes, just different tyres and suspension changes?

Or even better get a tyre manufacturer behind it and make it so its more about bike setup and just riding the damn things.

[Ivan]

Thats a good idea

[Buddha#81]

MotoFXR! 1K and your competetive, 2K and your kicking arse........Its not how fast you go........

[FROSTY]

MotoFXR! 1K and your competetive, 2K and your kicking arse........Its not how fast you go........
Nahh buddha to be honest I suspect that the 150ss class is going to end up being 150 4 strokes in a couple of years unless a new batch of 150 strokers apear

[Grub]

What R6 said sounds great but with some additional wrinkles. A couple of thoughts first,
- Why are there so many Spanish riders in MotoGP?
- Why is the racing in A1GP so close?

The Spanish have a development series, I'm not strong on the details but I understood it to be that the Spanish Motorcycling Federation supply the bikes and all the young guns go race them. Whether you get only 1 year to prove yourself before you pay or not I don't know.

In A1GP, the engines, tyres and chassis are all the same. There is no ability for 'tuning" except on the chassis and suspension setup of the supplied components.

So ... for NZ
- The MD250R sounds perfect
- Maybe the riders are all scholarship riders, not sure
- What would be really cool is like what happens at Laser world championships. The boats are all on the beach and they draw lots to see which oine you race. Imagine that at a bike meet!
- In motorbikes, maybe you get that bike on Thursday night and you have two days for setup

The idea behind all of this is of course rider development and skills because the machinery is all the same.

Good thread Frosty.

[quallman1234]

12K aint affordable for a young racer. Its not such a good idea if you look in any futhur. The 250 High Performing Single 4 strokes will have more mainteance costs than the 125GP bikes. How do i know. (Look at the 125's and 250F's in dirt riding, whats more expensive to run?) , If it was a twin then it would be different.

Need a developmental Class what tour's New Zealand, where you pay a fee X amount a week or month Or Total or whatever. And EVERYTHING is sorted out for you.
This aviod's extreme stress of having your bike up and running competitvely (125GP is a great example of how stress to get your bike running correctly effect's performance and setup (suspension e.g)). Effect's your whole performance.

A good example of this setup already is, Ken's Bike in 125GP, he does not do anything work too it him self (well might help out once in a while), He's just given the bike in tip top condition and told to race it.
This gives him a great advantage too focus on just riding. :yes:.

The bike isn't really that important (although a GP only bike would be the way to go and all the same bike's give or take.), The more important part In my oppion is the structure of the class. Mentors etc etc

[Pumba]

I believe R6 Kid, and Grub are on the right track, and I will tell you why.

I used to be involved, and still have an intrest in, Offshore powerboat racing. About 5 years ao the entire spot was at risk of falling over dueto thedwindiling number of boats actually competing in events. The association new it had to do somthing and launched a new class (along with a number of other rule changes that I wont go into here) Formula Honda.

Formula Honda is a one make of boat hull and engine class, the association got the buy in of Honda NZ to supply the engines and the manurfacture at the time of Sonic boat hulls to supply the boats. The boat and engine packages were purchased though the same shop (originally here was only one shop, now the class is bigger there may be soe others around the country) where all the hulls where rigged the same then could only be serviced by authorised Honda dealers.

Some minor changes could be made to indervidulise the set up to suit the driver best but all in all each rig was identical.

All boats sold where registered with the Offshore powerboat association, and the associated with this allowed them to purchase a propeler for each of the boats in the feild. At breifing pofore the race the propeleers were drawn out of a hat (not the actually props but you know what I mean) and that was your prop for this race, and then the same thing happened at the next race and so on and so on.

Points from the races where then given to the boat (not the crew, so you could change crew for each race if you wanted) and the season winners won an all expenses paid trip to Great Britten to compete in a couple of races in a simular calss over there.

This class has been hugly sucessful and has sucessfully brought the crowds and other competitors with MONEY back to the sport. Alos a number of the drivers have moved on from the honda class, investing in the larger Superboat (30 - 35ft Catamarans with 2 525 stern drive engines) and Superboat light class (25 - 30ft Cats with twin 2.5 litre outboard race engines).

MNZ need to look at a simular type of class to try breath fresh life into NZ road racing. My personal opinion as an outsider looking in is that they had a chance with the Pro Twins Class but now all it seems to me to be is a slower version of F3, not true entry leavel racing.

[scracha]

A one make series where the riders turn up and get allocated the bike at random at the start of the meeting. No mods allowed cept riding position and oem suspender adjustments. Kwakka Er6, SV650, hyobag or summit would be ideal. To keep under budget you'd have to use bikes that were a few years old.

[Moss 16]

125Gp IS the future. just because japan has pulled out (Sucking up to the americans) dosnt mean the class is going to die, KTM, Aprilia, Derbi and Gilera are still making and quite succesfully running 125's in not just motogp but also the spanish 125 series ( the series where most of the motogp 125/250 riders come from).

With regards to the moriwaki MD250R (An expensive maintenance diesel which is NOT eligable in the 125gp class as it is over 125cc), 12k would buy the best 125 currently being raced in nz. :scooter:

[HenryDorsetCase]

We were talking about this at the track day I did on Sunday!

The idea that was kicked around was the Hornet Cup. Identically prepared Honda Hornet 919's stock save removal of road kit. The key is as others have stated a manufacturer or distributor ownership and buy-in.

What you need is a fleet of, what, 20 bikes?, all identically prepared, sealed and all serviced by authorised dealers. The mods would for safety only and crashability: emulators/springs/oil brake pad material, rear shock, handlebars and footpegs and removal of road kit. Oh, and control tyres.

the idea of drawing a number out of a hat on Friday night, suspension/tyre setup on Saturday morning, race on Saturday arvo has to be attractive.

Say the bikes cost the distro $6k each (they retail at $11k, so that seems reasonable), and the bits/suspension/conversion costs say $4k you have $200k in the bikes, then advertising/cost of running the series/shipping the bikes/admin etc etc. Say another $100k (I have no idea really, just throwing figures around).

Your riders buy the right to race the season for say $10k each (cash money or Mum & Dad or sponsors (leathers only) ) and this gives them guaranteed entry all season, all support, and all they have to do is show up, setup, and race.

So the year one up front commitment for the distributor is around $100k. ($300k plus the other costs, less the $200k they get from the riders and the dealer money and any other sponsors). Surely that deficit should be spread between the distributor, and the tyre/suspension sponsors... and in fact each machine could be sponsored by a separate dealer and signwritten appropriately, and the dealer gets levied a couple of grand for the privilege... the commentator would say "and here comes Shaun Harris on the Ashburton Honda 919 closely followed by Simon Crafar on the Auckland Motorcycles 919".. stuff like that. You only need say $2000 for each dealer and you've got $40k

So with the staff time and residual cost the cost to the distributor might be still $80k or $100k in year one. Bet they look at that and go "Too much".

sounds like a lot of the profit on a lot of CR230F's and CBR600's before they get their money back. I dont see it.

The same model could theoretically be applied to other bikes though: SV650 Cup (still need the fork/shock mods), Triumph Daytona 675 cup (bike is dearer, but you wouldnt have to screw with the suspension). Or the Street triple cup. (that has potential!) You could even do it with something left of centre like HD 1200 sportsters though the brakes and ground clearance issues would need to be worked on..... lots of "the faithful" might come out to watch that though. Plus they'd be going slow enough you wouldnt strain your neck to see them!*

I guess it comes down to being 4 million people, vanishingly few interested in racing motorcycles, all spread around a long thin strip of land that is broken in the middle. Who are the big monied distributors around?


*sorry couldnt resist that.

[R6_kid]

Interesting post HDC, saw that in Aussie they have the R6 Cup and the FZ6 cup, but Yamaha Motors is a rather large company in Aussie - YMF also sponsor the Australian Superbike Championships.

In reality it would be smart to try and tag along with what the aussies have so that we can send our top riders over there to compete and further their careers.

[Hoon]

Hasn't that already been tried with the SV650 rent a racer scheme a few years back?

My opinion, I'm not exactly convinced that the lack of new racers is due to an absence of a suitable class. F3, 125GP, streetstock, Bucket racing is about as cheap and accessible as it gets. The problem to me seems to be a lack of interest in motorcycling overall and I don't see how yet another different class with different rules will change this.

Whats my solution? Well I don't really have one - yep kind of rude of me to knock everyones suggestions when I have nothing to add...sorry.
Ummm get more people interested in motorcycles and anything else related will also reap the benefits but how to do that is the big question that we've all been dwelling over for years!

But I believe the Hampton Downs WSB will be the best thing thats happened to NZ motorcycling in years!

[scott411]

Suzuki did try this with the SV650's about 3 to 5 year ago, you could hire ikes for the round or the series, all the bikes were identacally prepared by Brian Bernard, it think the price was about $650 a round, from memory, they built 10, and i am not to sure if they ever all got hired out,

it was part of the old tim gibbes winter series, these bikes were then aloud into f3,

it is a good idea, but it takes a bit of organising, and it did not seem to take off last time,

i think a smilar series with maybe ninja 205r's or sv650's or er6n's could be done, but it would take a lot fo support from the race public, mnz, and the distrubtors, i think you would want to do this class on smaller bikes,


if you look at the classes now, their is a a few option for young riders
125gp
formula 3
Pro twins,
Or even Motard (stop the hating people)
reasonably competitve bikes for these classes for well under 10K,

i am not sure if a brand new class would take off quicker enough

[Hellraiser]

Why reinvent the wheel ....

why not just copy some of the car racing classes i.e V8's, Pro7's etc etc ....

They all use controlled parts.

I'll come back do a bigger write up later when i have more time.

[Pumba]

if you look at the classes now, their is a a few option for young riders
125gp
formula 3
Pro twins,
Or even Motard (stop the hating people)
reasonably competitve bikes for these classes for well under 10K,

i am not sure if a brand new class would take off quicker enough

Maybee there is another problem that people are not thinking about. Its not the fact that there are not enough classes for people to start in, but there are to many.

A small pool of riders spreed over a number a fields results in a watering down of the talent pool and the xcitment. Just a thought.

[McJim]

Mmmmm- scorpio 225 racing.:rofl:

[scott411]

Maybee there is another problem that people are not thinking about. Its not the fact that there are not enough classes for people to start in, but there are to many.

A small pool of riders spreed over a number a fields results in a watering down of the talent pool and the xcitment. Just a thought.


very good call,

when i first started to go and watch road racing 250 proddy was the only real way to get in, so big feilds were the norm,

[CHOPPA]

That $12k bikes sounds like a bargain for a full set up bike, thats about the average price of a motocross bike and the mx bike will be rooted in 6 months! I reakon there needs to be something for minis like road racing ktm65s and to try get all the kart clubs to run some meetings, i have friends that would love to get there lil kids into it that are currently racing mx into road racing

[Buddha#81]

My opinion, I'm not exactly convinced that the lack of new racers is due to an absence of a suitable class. F3, 125GP, streetstock, Bucket racing is about as cheap and accessible as it gets. The problem to me seems to be a lack of interest in motorcycling overall and I don't see how yet another different class with different rules will change this.



I agree Hoon, South Island meets get 30-40 S/S riders and the same number of F4 riders at the bigger bucket meets.......I think we need to look at looking after the young riders, not look for a new class......Oyster down here drive's the S/S bus and plenty are on board I think another class may water down a already struggling sport.

[Maido]

I am under the impression that Moriwaki has released their MD250R (or something like that) which is essentially a GP125 frame with a 250 four stroke dirt bike based engine in it. They are around $12k out of the box ready to race. It's apparently the future of the MotoGP support classes so why not get into it now and build up some NZ talent for the world stage.

Rules for the class?

No mods on the bikes, just different tyres and suspension changes?

Or even better get a tyre manufacturer behind it and make it so its more about bike setup and just riding the damn things.


isn't this basically the same (albeit slightly slower) as going to the 125 class anyway? except if an engine shat it self you are looking at alot of money as opposed to less money in the 125s?
you can pick up a 125 or F3 bike for well under $12k

[skypig]

Supermotard on RR circuits?

Cheapish to buy, very cheap to crash.

(Trail rides, MX on your other wheels)