View Full Version : Two-stroke emissions not so bad?
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 10:53
One of the threads in the Racing forum has started to morph into a discussion on the reasonableness or otherwise of emissions regulations as applied to 2-stroke motorbikes. Eg see my post
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1468634&postcount=36
So I've started this new thread with the following challenge:
Because 2-stroke engines burn oil as well as petrol (and I think also because they don't burn the petrol completely) they emit more carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and particulate matter than 4-strokes. I don't know exactly how much more, but various fragments I've seen on the WWW suggest much, much more, eg this (which admittedly is more concerned about hydrocarbons in the water than in the air)
http://www.kimointernational.org/Default.aspx?tabid=68
But I admit there are holes in my knowledge about this, so I have a challenge: I've seen many posts on KB dismissing the environmental problems caused by 2-stroke engines, but not one that suggested the poster actually knew the first thing about the subject. If anyone wants to go off and do a bit of reading and come back and argue that the emissions regulations applied to 2-stroke motorbikes are excessive or unreasonable, then please do and we can discuss it.
bungbung
11th March 2008, 12:25
Looking at petrol and oil input to kilometres travelled, and using comparable bikes.
My only 2T on road experience is with a 50cc scooter.
It needed 1l of 2T oil per 1000km, in that period it would use 35l petrol.
A 4T 50cc scoot should be more economical, lets try 30l per 1000km.
If oil and petrol are considered equivalent for pollution, and for this exercise the 2T has 20% more emissions than a 4T.
gijoe1313
11th March 2008, 12:30
My poor stinky, two stroker smokers! :no: Imagine that, finding a reason to get them off the road :weep:
Borrocks to that! Just imagine a future where bikers are bootlegging around on two-strokers evading the Environmental Police!
In the bigger scale of things, I'm sure the mass of used PET bottles for water would rank higher! (But then again, I guess if everyone was riding two strokers it would be a problem then innit? :scratch:) There ya go, completely anecdotal and unformed opinionated claptrap .. oh wait :doh:
Never mind, let the games begin! :banana: :chase: :scooter:
xwhatsit
11th March 2008, 12:41
We don't have emissions regs on two-strokes in NZ. Just thought I'd point that out.
pete376403
11th March 2008, 12:44
two strokes started to be demonised in California many years ago and what starts in California is usually taken up by the rest of the US soon after. And Japan isn't going to piss off its single biggest market.
I would suggest that the fact that the 2T exhaust "looks" bad, even if it's not, was grounds enough for kneejerk legislation calling for the banning.
(wild unsubstantiated guess follows) The volume of emissions from all the smokers in a year probably doesn't come anywhere near the volume of emissions from diesels in a single day, but by railing against 2T bikes (users of which are a very minor part of the voting mass), politicians can pretend they are trying to save the planet.
Outboard motor users probably don't care whats under the hood, as long as it pushes the boat along
WRT
11th March 2008, 12:52
2/'s aren't always terrible polluters, BRP seem to have got their act together with the emissions on their etec Evinrude outboards (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:tP6b3_tlY5QJ:www.evinrude.com/NR/rdonlyres/20C954B6-02AD-4480-81FC-2B9A3AD1866F/0/ETECTechnologyBackgrounder21705.pdf+e-tec+emissions&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=nz).
Be nice to see the same technology come across from the outboards to bikes. Clean burning, less pollution than an equivalent four stroke. And it's pretty cool engine management, the whole thing can be controlled by a laptop, turning off and on individual spark plugs or injectors, you can also see the history of the engine, temp, revs, throttle, etc. There's also no running in period, and the maintenance schedule is remarkably long - service once every three years. Wouldn't that be nice on your bike . . .
However, while the etec outboards run very cleanly, I don't think the same could be said of my CR (aka, Puff the Tragic Wagon). And BRP only use 2 stroke on their larger outboards, over 40hp. So perhaps the technology isnt suited to smaller engines. Sorry scooters . . .
I'm sure BRP must have looked at the possibility of transferring the technology from Evinrude to Ski-Doo/Sea-Doo, and to Rotax. Imagine if Rotax were to start producing a large capacity bike engine using the etec system? Now that would be cool.
However, according to the Vatican us current 2/ riders are all doomed to "eternal death" (is there another kind?) and will be going straight to hell (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10497386).
WRT
11th March 2008, 13:02
Actually, another article on the etecs, but talking about automotive use as well:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KJI/is_6_115/ai_103990207
Ah, if only . . .
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 13:24
We don't have emissions regs on two-strokes in NZ. Just thought I'd point that out.
Fair point, but I understand that the move away from 2-strokes overseas is due to emissions regulations there. (Well, partly due, anyway. I think the move away from 2-strokes is also due to their higher fuel consumption and the fact that many people just don't like them.)
two strokes started to be demonised in California many years ago and what starts in California is usually taken up by the rest of the US soon after. And Japan isn't going to piss off its single biggest market. I would suggest that the fact that the 2T exhaust "looks" bad, even if it's not, was grounds enough for kneejerk legislation calling for the banning. (wild unsubstantiated guess follows) The volume of emissions from all the smokers in a year probably doesn't come anywhere near the volume of emissions from diesels in a single day, but by railing against 2T bikes (users of which are a very minor part of the voting mass), politicians can pretend they are trying to save the planet.
Outboard motor users probably don't care whats under the hood, as long as it pushes the boat along
"Demonised"? "Kneejerk"? Your kneejerk dismissal of the issues and demonising of the politicians isn't going to convince anyone who hasn't turned his brain off.
"The fact that the 2T exhaust "looks" bad, even if it's not"? (Actually, as I understand it, it looks bad and it is bad.)
I'm not sure about your (wild, unsubstantiated :)) comparison between diesels and 2-stroke motorbikes. I'm no fan of diesels myself, but they are being subjected to quite tough regulations these days, and about time too.
2/'s aren't always terrible polluters, BRP seem to have got their act together with the emissions on their etec Evinrude outboards (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:tP6b3_tlY5QJ:www.evinrude.com/NR/rdonlyres/20C954B6-02AD-4480-81FC-2B9A3AD1866F/0/ETECTechnologyBackgrounder21705.pdf+e-tec+emissions&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=nz).
Be nice to see the same technology come across from the outboards to bikes. Clean burning, less pollution than an equivalent four stroke.
Thanks for that. I suspect that the technology won't come across because there isn't the demand in the market, but I may be wrong.
Ixion
11th March 2008, 13:33
Actually, in NZ, two strokes are EXEMPTED from our emission regulations (such as they are). Or (depending on which bit ) have much higher limits.
We do win one sometimes.
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 13:41
Actually, in NZ, two strokes are EXEMPTED from our emission regulations (such as they are). Or (depending on which bit) have much higher limits. We do win one sometimes.
Thanks, Ixion. Can you please point me to a source of information on this?
As I understand it, NZ emission regulations basically say that vehicles have to comply with emission regulations in the country of origin. And I understand there has been a change recently that effectively banned used imports more than 5 years old. Am I right?
Ixion
11th March 2008, 14:05
Road Rule Vehicle Exhaust Emissions 2007
Says that if a vehicle was built to comply with an emissions standard it must still comply on entry.
And specifies the emission limits for general application (Table 3.1)
Four strokes 1% Co, 300 ppm HC
Two strokes 4.5% 7500 ppm (thats the smoke)
So if a two stroke originally complied with whatever the standard required it still must (fair enough). And if it didn't comply with any standard it is allowed nearly 30 times as much emission as a four stroke. . Woo hoo
:banana::2thumbsup
Two strokes are also effectively exempted from the WoF visible smoke test (technically, they must not smoke more than they did when new. But who is going to be able to judge that !)
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 14:47
To the people who say, "Can my little 2-stoke really be that bad?" I think the answer is, possibly, "Yes!"
Ixion's already told us a 2-stroke is allowed to put out 2000 times as much hydrocarbon as a 4-stroke. How much does that matter? I'm not sure, but I suspect that some of the hydrocarbons in question aren't very nice.
And from this page
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/comm/news/index.cfm?fuseaction=con.main&cat=8&id=117
we learn
The United Nations Environmental Program has singled out two-stroke engines and diesel engines as primary contributors to the Asian brown cloud, a layer of particulate pollution that is one mile deep and roughly the size of the United States, which now covers South Asia.
"In the developed world, nearly all vehicles are powered by cleaner four-stroke engines. However, in developing nations, two-strokes are favored for personal transportation due to their low cost, durability and high power-to-weight ratio," said Lorenz. "Unfortunately, the simple two-stroke engine has so much pollution that one small tricycle may produce the same amount of pollution as 30 to 50 modern automobiles. The 250,000 tricycles in Manila contribute pollution equivalent to 10 million Honda Accords."
Throughout Asia, two-stroke vehicles create the pollution equivalent of 2 billion to 5 billion Honda Accords.
And here
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1247506
it says
Measurements of how much pollution two-wheelers emit are rare, but one study of traffic intersections in Bangkok, Thailand, found that two-wheelers contributed up to 47% of particulates. When the city instituted a stringent inspection program and emissions standards in 2000, two-wheelers made up 96% of the city’s traffic; by March 2004 they made up only 40%, reported Supat Wangwongwatana, deputy director general of Thailand’s Pollution Control Department.
Similarly, when two-stroke baby taxis were phased out of Dhaka, Bangladesh, in 2002, particulate concentrations dropped up to 40%, and carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons fell significantly, reported S.M.A. Bari, director of engineering at the Bangladesh Road Transport Authority.
Now, this may be over-simplifying things, it may even be completely wrong, but I think it's not reasonable to accuse the politicians & bureacrats of a kneejerk reaction to a non-problem.
Ixion
11th March 2008, 14:54
But but but (I got the maths wrong BTW, its only 30 times as much. But of course when I fire up Petal that makes up for the rest, Petal leaves an ozone hole trail the way jets leave contrails ). You speak as if two smoker smoke was BAD. It's bewdiful! :love:
Four strokes pollute. Two strokes perfume the air.
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 14:55
Looking at petrol and oil input to kilometres travelled, and using comparable bikes.
My only 2T on road experience is with a 50cc scooter.
It needed 1l of 2T oil per 1000km, in that period it would use 35l petrol.
A 4T 50cc scoot should be more economical, lets try 30l per 1000km.
If oil and petrol are considered equivalent for pollution, and for this exercise the 2T has 20% more emissions than a 4T.
Thanks for that. Your calculations relate to total amount of hydrocarbons burned, and hence (roughly) total amount of CO2 emitted. This is relevant for global warming (but let's not get into that here). Compared to 4-strokes, 2-strokes use a bit more fuel and produce a bit more CO2. However they don't burn the fuel efficiently, so they produce a lot more unburned or partially burned hydrocarbons. This is why they have trouble meeting emissions regulations.
Ixion
11th March 2008, 14:55
Now, this may be over-simplifying things, it may even be completely wrong, but I think it's not reasonable to accuse the politicians & bureacrats of a kneejerk reaction to a non-problem.
Of course it is. Two strokes are never a problem. They're SPECIAL.
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 15:04
I got the maths wrong BTW, its only 30 times as much.
Oops, I should have noticed that. (I'd insert an "embarrassed" smiley, but I can't find it.) A factor of 30 is closer to what I've seen from other sources.
There remains the question of how much hydrocarbon emissions matter. I'm not sure about that.
Edit: Actually, we're both still wrong, 7500/300 = 25.
Badjelly
11th March 2008, 15:10
Of course it is. Two strokes are never a problem. They're SPECIAL.
Ridden by SPECIAL people?
Dave_G
11th March 2008, 17:33
The real issue with a 2 stroke is the un-burnt hydrocarbons, not the burnt ones (i.e. the smoke) as the dangerous stuff is in the particles that are blown out the back end. They tend to over fuel i.e. there more fuel goes in than they can burn, so at the exhaust the level of un-burnt stuff is quite high. In a large way this is just a function of the way a 2 stroke works in that the charge is sucked through to the exhaust can then rammed back by the reflected pulse, only not all of it makes it, hence the emisson issues (and consumption problems).
I, of course prefer to think that its all an evil plot hatched by 4-stroke owners who new they would never be able to compete any other way so they set out to ban them!
gijoe1313
11th March 2008, 17:43
Ridden by SPECIAL people?
Ahyuk :drool: Momma always done tol'me I wuz always speshul!
I luvs my purty two-stroker smoker I does, she always done me no wrong and is the sunshine in ma' life!
Dem'blimm'n gubbermint types are always angl'n to cheat us simple folk they is!
Well if'n they come fer my Pippi and Daisy, I got a double load of varmint chasers for dem' whee doggy! :drinknsin:ar15::motu::shake::kick::2guns:
Motu
11th March 2008, 17:57
There remains the question of how much hydrocarbon emissions matter.
Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.Riding a 2 stroke is worth all the black looks and talking behind my back - riding bikes is all about having fun,and shit...nothing is as much fun as a 2 stroke motorcycle!
craigs288
11th March 2008, 18:08
Two strokes are also effectively exempted from the WoF visible smoke test (technically, they must not smoke more than they did when new. But who is going to be able to judge that !)
So when I accidently make a 20:1 premix and look like I'm laying chemtrails through the waitakeres and around west auckland, I'll tell mr policeman that i've always run it at 20:1 and it has smoked like that from day one.
Never had one seize on me yet.
jcupit69
11th March 2008, 18:27
It was a shame when the emissions laws stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes, personally i love them 2 bits :love:
from owning a 4stroke 250 and going back to a 2stroke you can visibly see the amount of beautiful smelling smoke there is come out of the back of the 2stroke (and if your in a closed garage you'll soon realise how much, lol). Also as you have to run alot of them for 5 mins befor you ride anywhere anyway, ur running the engine for longer than you would a 4stroke aswell.
But thanx ixon, nice to no my baby will be safe till the oil runs out :2thumbsup
Ixion
11th March 2008, 18:59
So when I accidently make a 20:1 premix and look like I'm laying chemtrails through the waitakeres and around west auckland, I'll tell mr policeman that i've always run it at 20:1 and it has smoked like that from day one.
Never had one seize on me yet.
Yep. From the VIR manual
Vehicle with two-stroke engine or
rotary engine.
The smoke produced is not noticeably and signifi cantly more visible than it would have been when the
vehicle was manufactured and supplied with the fuel recommended by the manufacturer (Note 4).
Motu
11th March 2008, 19:11
And most 2 strokes will smoke less then when they were new because the oil these days is so much better.When they ran on SAE30 at 16:1 it was a real smoke screen.Same engine at 40:1 or 50:1 on synth will be almost smokeless.
Coyote
11th March 2008, 19:20
As I understood it, the production of a vehicle sends out more toxic gas than the vehicle will ever pump out in it's lifetime. Basically making the idea of disposing of an old vehicle for one that emits less toxins ridiculous.
Could relate to 2 stokes. Since they're easier to rebuild an owner may keep it longer.
By the way, would I really help save the planet by getting a scooter?
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 08:39
Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.Riding a 2 stroke is worth all the black looks and talking behind my back - riding bikes is all about having fun,and shit...nothing is as much fun as a 2 stroke motorcycle!
One person who doesn't give a damn, no problem. A million people who don't give a damn and you get serious air pollution. Some people do give a damn about that.
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 08:44
As I understood it, the production of a vehicle sends out more toxic gas than the vehicle will ever pump out in it's lifetime. Basically making the idea of disposing of an old vehicle for one that emits less toxins ridiculous.
Got anything to back that up? I doubt it, myself, but I don't have anything to back that up right now.
There's toxins and there's toxins. The specific toxin (well, class of chemicals, some of which may be toxic) that two-strokes put out in large quantities is hydrocarbons from the unburned (or partially burned) fuel and oil. I don't think vehicle manufacture does result in any significant amount of hydrocarbons in the air.
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 08:52
And most 2 strokes will smoke less then when they were new because the oil these days is so much better.When they ran on SAE30 at 16:1 it was a real smoke screen.Same engine at 40:1 or 50:1 on synth will be almost smokeless.
Good point. I'd like to learn more about the factors effecting 2-stroke emissions. I think the unburnt oil ends up as smoke, but there's also quite a lot of unburnt fuel that is invisible. One of the references I found yesterday said that 30% of the fuel that goes into a 2-stroke comes out unburnt. That's mind-boggling! (But I need to find a better source before I'll believe that number.)
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 08:59
It was a shame when the emissions laws stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes, personally i love them 2 bits :love:
Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.
I quite liked my Suzuki GT250K, though I did get embarrassed when I opened the throttle and it left a smoke trail you could walk on!
McJim
12th March 2008, 09:04
My dad bought a 2 stroke car in 1973. Even then he told me never to stand behind it when the engine was running otherwise I would stand a good chance of death by toxic inhalation.:rofl: He used to carry huge quantities of 2T oil around. 993cc 2T engine.
stanko
12th March 2008, 09:06
What you ring ding haters forget is that while the 2ts may make a bit of visible smoke from their oil consumption, is their oil never needs to be changed and disposed of which is an enviromental issue that 4t owners forget about. Most of NZs waste oil is burned in cement kilns creating toxic pollution. At least 2t owners are up front about their pollution
Ixion
12th March 2008, 09:50
Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.
Nope. People wanted the two smokers all right. The were dropped solely because of US emissions rules . In fact there was such a uproar from the worlds bikers (I was a part of it!) that Yamaha and Suzuki decided to reintroduce the two stroke, whick was the RZ and RG series. Unfortunately they never brought back the big ones :crybaby:. The later two strokes weren't (by and large) ever sold in the US.
We can judge how popular two strokes wuld be in the absence of restrictions by looking at the jetski and snowmobile markets - where two strokes either dominate or are at least on the same footing as four strokes.
pete376403
12th March 2008, 09:58
Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.
I quite liked my Suzuki GT250K, though I did get embarrassed when I opened the throttle and it left a smoke trail you could walk on!
go here http://www.arb.ca.gov/db/search/search.htm
and search two-stroke emissions. Lots of docs relating. The factories stopped producing the big road strokers because of these, not because the consumers didn't want them - (how could the consumers NOT want them? What were the options? CB750 or Brit bikes that made up for in oil leaks what they lacked in exhaust smoke)
Recall also these were the days of air-cooled (with the exception of the GT750) engines, which meant looser control of engine temps (affects emissions), and the oil technology was not as advanced as it is now.
I remember baffle decoking was a regular part of the two stroke tune-up, getting rid of all the accumulated oil residues
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 10:01
What you ring ding haters forget is that while the 2ts may make a bit of visible smoke from their oil consumption, is their oil never needs to be changed and disposed of which is an enviromental issue that 4t owners forget about. Most of NZs waste oil is burned in cement kilns creating toxic pollution. At least 2t owners are up front about their pollution
I haven't seen any ring-ding haters posting on this thread. Certainly not me. What I hate is ring ding lovers yammering on about bloody bureaucrats & politicians driving their poor darlings off the road without having made any effort at all to understand the problems. In other words, denialism. I do hate denialism.
Still, you raise an interesting point about engine oil. Hmmm, what temperature do cement kilns run at? No need to answer that: Wikipedia says 1850-2000 degC. So the hydrocarbons and such-like in the oil are going to be burned pretty well, I should think (which is the reason for using cement kilns).
Granted there'll be bits of general crud (material worn off the cylinder bores and such-like) in the oil, which will end up as particulates, but cement kilns have filters to strip at least some of the particulates out. And if you're going to get worried about that, you might like to think about what happens to the material worn off the cylinder bores in a 2-stroke.
pete376403
12th March 2008, 10:06
Around Wellington quite a bit of recycled oil gets burned in the locomotives at Steam Incorporated. They leave it in holding tanks to let the various cruds settle (the bottom of those tanks must be pretty toxic). I've spoken to one of the loco firemen about performance - he said it's ok but not as good as proper fuel oil, and it soots the tubes up more.
so the oil ends up in the atmosphere after all...
But I thought most of the recycled oil ended up being just that - re-refined and put back into the market. It's too valuable to destroy just because it's dirty.addition
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 10:15
The factories stopped producing the big road strokers because of [two-stroke emissions], not because the consumers didn't want them - (how could the consumers NOT want them? What were the options? CB750 or Brit bikes that made up for in oil leaks what they lacked in exhaust smoke)
Recall also these were the days of air-cooled (with the exception of the GT750) engines, which meant looser control of engine temps (affects emissions), and the oil technology was not as advanced as it is now.
I remember baffle decoking was a regular part of the two stroke tune-up, getting rid of all the accumulated oil residues
Maybe you're right. I was a bike rider during that time, but I didn't know what was behind the factories' decisions.
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 10:19
so the oil ends up in the atmosphere after all...
Yeah, but I still think the hydrocarbons are likely to get burned more thoroughly than the oil that goes through 2-stroke engines.
Badjelly
12th March 2008, 10:43
By the way, I don't have a 2-stroke motorbike these days, and I wouldn't, because of the poorer fuel economy and the air pollution and because I just like sound and feel of 4-strokes better. And the old, faithful Victa mower died a year ago and was replaced by a 4-stroke. However I do have a 2-stroke machine, namely an olive harvester powered by a small chainsaw engine. It's got a lot of character, that engine! You have to drive it hard or it'll foul its plugs, but the power output from such a small, light engine is amazing. You have to admire it, however much you hate the noise and smoke (and I do). A small 4-stroke just wouldn't work in this application. The only alternative I can see to a 2-stroke engine is pneumatic drive from a much large, stationary engine. So I'm also doing my bit to pollute the air with hydrocarbons, but one thing I will do is switch to using synthetic oil exclusively.
Str8 Jacket
12th March 2008, 10:50
Ridden by SPECIAL people?
Watch it buster!! :spanking:
2 smokers ROCK! I just wish that I could stop blowing them up!
imdying
12th March 2008, 11:02
Really, who gives a crap... no amount of whinging will bring 2 strokes back (in to production), and if they outlaw them, that's hardly going to stop us riding them (oh noes, no wof no reg, whatever shall I do...).
Badjelly, go and smile at a single person today... or help an old person across a road, or whatever, that will have more infinitely more effect on the world than if this thread were to make a thousand pages long.
Just ride your boring slow bike and enjoy life without worrying about what the stinkwheel nuts are riding... cause they sure as anything don't give a crap about things like your bike...
Edbear
12th March 2008, 14:15
Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.Riding a 2 stroke is worth all the black looks and talking behind my back - riding bikes is all about having fun,and shit...nothing is as much fun as a 2 stroke motorcycle!
Have to say I've never noticed an RS250 putting out much smoke...
Motu
12th March 2008, 17:47
But I thought most of the recycled oil ended up being just that - re-refined and put back into the market. It's too valuable to destroy just because it's dirty.addition
The oil refineries were shut down many years ago - there is still the problem of the wastes.I was shown around the old Dominion Oil Refinery in Onehunga,maybe just a few months before it was shut down,and it was pretty old technology they were using....like clay filters for a start.I also didn't like my favorite brewery just up the road using spring water for it's choice beers.....or maybe that's why it always tasted so good to an old grease monkey like me....
jcupit69
12th March 2008, 18:36
Was it really the emissions laws that stopped most companies from producing the bigger 2 strokes? (I'm thinking of the the time when mainstream bikes like Suzuki T500, GT550, GT750, Kwaka H1, H2 were two-stroke, not so much the later, sharper vehicles like Yamaha RD350LC, Suzuki RG250.) I think it was more that the customers didn't want them. But I must admit I don't really know.
I quite liked my Suzuki GT250K, though I did get embarrassed when I opened the throttle and it left a smoke trail you could walk on!
Kind of a mix of the 2 from what iv managed to piece together.
From what iv gathered (and i may be wrong too) with the 250cc area at least was that japan changed its emissions laws and the japanise market was the biggest market for the 250's. Iv heard many different things but i know suzuki stopped making the rgv motor (due to emissions law change i think?!?), and that saw the end of the rs250 in 2003, the last of the 2stroke sports 250's......
If anyone knows the full story id love to hear it, iv only managed to piece bits and bobs together......
jcupit69
12th March 2008, 18:38
Have to say I've never noticed an RS250 putting out much smoke...
They blow a bit of smoke in the warm up, but your right if your running good oil their not that bad. Castrol TTS is good, but doesnt give that 2stroke smell :crybaby:
jcupit69
12th March 2008, 18:40
Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.Riding a 2 stroke is worth all the black looks and talking behind my back - riding bikes is all about having fun,and shit...nothing is as much fun as a 2 stroke motorcycle!
True that!!!! :clap:
Badjelly
13th March 2008, 08:23
There remains the question of how much hydrocarbon emissions matter.
Frankly Badjelly....I don't give a damn.
I wasn't thinking about whether they matter to you. Nor do I particularly care whether this thread matters (though I hope it matters more than "Is Harley bashing a jealousy thing?"). What I'm concerned about is whether they matter to the people breathing the exhaust fumes.
One reason airborne hydrocarbons definitely do matter, in some times and in some places, is because they are precursors to photochemical smog, as in Los Angeles. This is why the Californian authorities introduced controls on motorcycle hydrocarbon emissions in 1975, eg see:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/motcycle/onrdmc.htm
They also tried to control hydrocarbon emissions from a whole bunch of other sources as well as vehicles: dry cleaning, petrol stations, household solvents. I think these were the regulations that killed the old mainstream 2-strokes, the Kwaka 250-750, the Suzuki GT series.
In other places photochemical smog is not such an issue, but there's also the question of the toxicity of some of the hydrocarbons, notably benzene. One of the big problems in assessing the effects of air pollution is the complexity of the chemistry involved. There is good evidence that air pollution is bad for people, but it's very hard to work out which specific chemicals are doing the damage.
But, you don't give a damn? Noted.
bungbung
13th March 2008, 08:37
Emission regulations have made a big difference in Bangkok over the last 10 years. The old 2T motorbikes have mostly disappeared and have been replaced with 4T bikes. While not what you would call clean, the metro bangkok air is at least see through now.
Badjelly
13th March 2008, 09:04
Emission regulations have made a big difference in Bangkok over the last 10 years. The old 2T motorbikes have mostly disappeared and have been replaced with 4T bikes. While not what you would call clean, the metro bangkok air is at least see through now.
But ... but, hasn't anyone told them 4Ts are boring and slow? :gob:
daaatomic
13th March 2008, 09:11
I havent read this whole thread, but i've just bought a new 2T and it meets the latest E9 emissions standards.
Badjelly
13th March 2008, 09:23
I havent read this whole thread, but i've just bought a new 2T and it meets the latest E9 emissions standards.
I'll summarise the thread for you. BJ (me): nag, nag. Everyone else: f**k off.
But tell us more about the bike! It is a bike, isn't it?
daaatomic
13th March 2008, 09:32
I'll summarise the thread for you. BJ (me): nag, nag. Everyone else: f**k off.
well put!
yes, it's a bike. 50cc of 2T fury. And according to a guy who owns one, he only used 1ltr of oil over 2000kms.
Made by gas gas, in spain.
more_fasterer
13th March 2008, 12:04
Castrol TTS is good, but doesnt give that 2stroke smell :crybaby:
Ironic, considering Castrol's origins...
Now, when are the manufacturers gonna start releasing DI stinkwheels in capacities bigger than 50cc??
jcupit69
13th March 2008, 20:29
Ironic, considering Castrol's origins...
Now, when are the manufacturers gonna start releasing DI stinkwheels in capacities bigger than 50cc??
Saw 'castrol TTS racing' the other day and was tempted to give it a go, but at almost $30 a litre it stayed on the shelf! Anyone know if the TTS racing is worth the extra $$$, or what benefits it has over regular TTS?
Badjelly
14th March 2008, 09:29
Saw 'castrol TTS racing' the other day and was tempted to give it a go, but at almost $30 a litre it stayed on the shelf! Anyone know if the TTS racing is worth the extra $$$, or what benefits it has over regular TTS?
I didn't know there was an oil called "TTS Racing". And last time I looked (Supercheap Auto, Lyall Bay, last year) ordinary TTS was $27 per litre.
avgas
18th April 2008, 10:47
Two strokes - a complete drop dead gorgeous slapper with the best body.
4 strokes - ya mum.
One is good for everyday crap - the other you just want to fuck. Thats the best comparison i have.
Rosie
18th April 2008, 11:39
I would just like to randomly add to this thread that fully-synthetic 2T oil is made from soybeans, and is thus carbon neutral :D
Badjelly
18th April 2008, 15:52
I would just like to randomly add to this thread that fully-synthetic 2T oil is made from soybeans, and is thus carbon neutral :D
Call me a geek, but I want to know if this is actually true. Not that I'm doubting you or anything, but someone once told me you couldn't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Rogue
19th April 2008, 00:47
Two strokes you got to love them, love the sound, love the smell :rockon:
If only they would bring back the big bangers I'll be in for one !!
awayatc
19th April 2008, 03:33
Emission regulations have made a big difference in Bangkok over the last 10 years. The old 2T motorbikes have mostly disappeared and have been replaced with 4T bikes. While not what you would call clean, the metro bangkok air is at least see through now.
Just a short wait for the Humvees and vipers to replace the 4t bikes, and the air quality will be LA..:scooter:
Progress the American way.......
awayatc
19th April 2008, 03:36
Call me a geek, but I want to know if this is actually true. Not that I'm doubting you or anything, but someone once told me you couldn't believe everything you read on the Internet.
I don't believe that:dodge:
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