KB = Mourning

[Quasievil]

Im interested in the thoughts of my fellow Bikers about this subject.
Ive been a biker for, hell ,EVER being an old bugger I have been around for a while and it seems to me that the last few years have been quite tragic there have been many close friends and fellow bikers being seriously hurt and or killed.
When I first joined KB about 5 years ago it seems to me (bad memory syndrome) that we never really had as much serious carnage certainly not like what we do now,and these days its on a reasonable regular basis.
For me In the last ,.....say 2 years I have lost a fair number of mates from motorbike crashes, why and hows arent what this thread is about,
this thread is saying the more you get into the Motorcycling world via racing forums etc the more mates you will loose as a result of crashes, it seems obvious to me know that this is the price I pay for knowing so many bikers, the trouble is Im not sure how comfortable I am paying this price anymore.
I can name these guys whom I have known that have been hurt or who have died recently
Not in Order

Flyin (died)
OldFart (died)
Loosebruce (died)
Shaun Harris (seriously injured)
DSS3 (Died)
Stonechucker (seriusly injured)
MotoBob (seriously injured)
UncleB (died)
Derek hill (died)
inlinefour (seriously injured)
Oarbreaker (died)
Skelstar (seriously injured)
Razya (died)

(anyone not there I forgot, or didnt actually know them)

8 Dead
5 badly Injured

Thats just guys I know, some very closely and some as online mates. But all I have met.

So whats this all about, well its a wake up call, its a hey guys be careful............NO NO seriously........ Be careful !!
This is getting mental and deeply worrying, for me at least, I mean who of you is next ? based on the above it will only be a few weeks before one of you dies, horrible thing to say isnt it? but im afraid its reality.

In light of the last few days with the recent deaths at Pukekohe I guess its made the heart feel even heavier and has got me thinking whats around the corner for me, who is it next, is it me? when do I get another phone call or read a post about another incident, kinda depressing aint it?

thats about it, little Quasi bleet over

in a Somber mood, but not depressed (for the record)

[Maha]

Nice try Quasi...i really mean that!
Gets said after every incident/accident...''be careful out ther guys''
Nobody listens, its human nature to and a moral right to do what every the hell you like. Thats the way it goes mate. Nothing you or I can do to stop accidents, they happen, we dont mean for them to happen, thats why they are called accident. I will carry on riding the way see fit, just because someone get taken out wont change that, and im sure most other bikers feel the same...
Some will jump on the bandstand and agree with what you are saying (i do) but all i will say is...''good on ya mate''.

[Katman]

I actually believe sites like this have something to do with it. Back when I started riding motorcycles like an idiot I had plenty of people telling me I was an idiot and not many saying "You're the man". Via the internet it's not terribly difficult to get enough supporters behind you that you begin to not hear the ones calling you an idiot. These days it's possible to even organise large group rides made up entirely of idiots.

[MSTRS]

Known a few myself over the years. But with the fairly close-knit community we have here, it just seems more tragic and somehow more frequent.
Another KBer was a young fellow calling himself KoroWetere. Had only been riding a few weeks.
Here is the page of the 'fallen' http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/picgallery.php?sort=rip&order=desc

[gijoe1313]

..........

[ManDownUnder]

+1......... bang on the money dude. Bang on the money

The only thing I can do is look after me and mine and stay off that sad role call, hence the ocassional out of character wee shouting stampy I have... then back to normal me.

[Jimmy B]

Nobody listens.

I listen.

Thanks Quasi

[Mikkel]

I actually believe sites like this have something to do with it. Back when I started riding motorcycles like an idiot I had plenty of people telling me I was an idiot and not many saying "You're the man". Via the internet it's not terribly difficult to get enough supporters behind you that you begin to not hear the ones calling you an idiot. These days it's possible to even organise large group rides made up entirely of idiots.

Good point there I guess.

It seems that the ones that call you an idiot over the internet are usually the ones that have never met you in person - or had closer dealings with online. I don't know how others feel about that, but I generally take that kind of criticism with a grain of salt...

[avgas]

After reading that list it has left a very bitter taste in my mouth.
Sad fact of the matter guys is that
The world is out to kill you!
The quicker we realize it the less dead we become.
Those that dont think this - must be living in some kind of Utopia i haven't heard of yet.
Ride safe, Ride smart - know your limitations and Always! think of the love ones you would leave behind if anything happened.
IF and WHEN are 2 things that should be on the thoughts of everyone, everyday.

[Bass]

Nobody listens???

Jimmy B listens!

Me too

Again, thanks Quasi

[Firefight]

don't forget "Korowetere"

runciman rd

[MSTRS]

don't forget "Korowetere"

runciman rd

I didn't forget him.
It is something I do occasionally...just reflect on the people who make up that list. Helps to keep me grounded in reality.

[Kittyhawk]

It is a worry when you see a headline "biker down" or hear on the news "bikers killed in..." Heart always jumps into throat and first thought is "who is it do I know them are they ok?"

The longer friendships last weather it be online or in person, when a biker is lost it hurts. As a community we all share the sadness and pain alot higher than non bikers.

A biking lifestyle has a closer interaction among ourselves in society. If we see a biker down we help weather we know them or not in most cases. If we loose a rider we all feel the pain on some level. If someone died of cancer for example, others are sympathetic, but that feeling isnt the same as what it is among bikers.

Sitting at a cafe alone with ya bike parked out front someone will come along and start a coversation bout back in their day when they had a bike etc...Since I signed up to KB I have lost 4 friends to being killed on bikes, and it always makes me wonder too...who will be next?

No one knows. But because bikes are contantly improving performance wise, we all start from the bottom and work our way up by riding. This raises a question should the licence procedures be adjusted to that according to the higher quality performance improvements of bikes?

When I compared my 97 ZX6R to my K3 Gsxr 600 massive difference. I am lucky to have had alot of riding experience on older heavier bikes..but the newer and lighter they are the faster they will go..

Could this be why there are more deaths as of recent?

[Katman]

I actually believe sites like this have something to do with it. Back when I started riding motorcycles like an idiot I had plenty of people telling me I was an idiot and not many saying "You're the man". Via the internet it's not terribly difficult to get enough supporters behind you that you begin to not hear the ones calling you an idiot. These days it's possible to even organise large group rides made up entirely of idiots.

And that's why, a while ago, I tried suggesting that this site takes a far more active role in condemning irresponsible behaviour on motorcycles. (And I believe there has been a noticeable improvement in that respect of late).

[Mikkel]

The world is out to kill you!

Well, life ends eventually. That's about the only fact there is to it...
And if the world hadn't been out to kill us, then we wouldn't have evolved in the first place.


Nobody listens???

Jimmy B listens!

Me too

Again, thanks Quasi

I listen as well. But I know that sometimes when I twist my right wrist I suffer a temporary amnesia.

[Maha]

Almost 11,000 memebers on Kiwibiker and 8 or so have tragiclly gone from this Earth over the last five years. Example: A small town has a population of around 11,000, over the the past 5 or so years a handful of the population (lets say 8) have died, yes its a bastard to those who love and know these people but its an acceptable % given the numbers. Not acceptable to those that have lost loved ones, but thats the circle of life. There will be more I and dread the day that its someone i know personally.

[Mikkel]

Almost 11,000 memebers on Kiwibiker and 8 or so have tragiclly gone from this Earth over the last five years. Example: A small town has a population of around 11,000, over the the past 5 or so years a handful of the population (lets say 8) have died, yes its a bastard to those who love and know these people but its an acceptable % given the numbers. Not acceptable to those that have lost loved ones, but thats the circle of life. There will be more and dread the day that its someone i know personally.

11,000 registered members mind you. Some of which are inactive (who knows why?), some of which are lurkers...

What the usual number of members visiting the site? I'm guessing somewhere between 500 and 1000 a day.

My point being of course that if you don't interact with the community both on- and offline noone here will have a clue that you've binned and gotten yourself hurt or worse.

[Kittyhawk]

Greyghost....another lost kber...

[Deano]

Slightly off topic, and I'm not in any way trying to downplay road fatalities (or track) as any fatality is tragic to those involved.

But - if this was an interest group concerning hazardous substances, we would be mourning 480-700 people per year in NZ. That's more than the road toll - but it just doesn't make the headlines.

After the Puke tragedy, I looked at my 5 month old son and it certainly made me think.

But we each have to live our own lives and assess the risks in our activites.

With that in mind, there's no way I'm giving up racing.

[Finn]

I never post on "biker down" threads, especially the serious ones. Sure I care and sure I'm shocked and saddened, but after all it's a numbers game with the added risk given the physics of 2 wheels and the disproportionate number of k's traveled by the average biker.

Life is cruel and one thing for sure, it will end one way or another. Still, I'd rather die by a Lancer than Cancer.

We're bikers, life with it.

[Str8 Jacket]

During my life I have lost quite a few mates for various reasons, mostly suicide. Those types of deaths are harder to mourn and harder to understand. Motorcycle accidents you can understand, even if it just doesnt seem right. Its real, cause it can happen to you. Since my time on KB I have made sooo many great mates and life has been awesome since I have started riding. The loss of others has really served as a reminder to me about how dangerous motorcycling really is and that I need to look after myself out there! Losing Uncle B was hard but it has been made easier through my mates on KB, we have all been there to support each other and to help "keep things real". I know that riding is dangerous but I would rather lose my life to riding than to depression.

[Joni]

I never post on "biker down" threads, especially the serious ones. Sure I care and sure I'm shocked and saddened, but after all it's a numbers game with the added risk given the physics of 2 wheels and the disproportionate number of k's traveled by the average biker.
Yup me too... I will only post if I knew the person.


KB is an unnatural thing in a way.... In “real life” a person would never be exposed to this amount of riders on a personal level. Bikers do go down, they do get hurt and at times pass away... but with so many riders concentrated into one place like KB, it becomes a lot more common to hear about.

[SpankMe]

What the usual number of members visiting the site? I'm guessing somewhere between 500 and 1000 a day.

<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="0" align="center" width="90%" class="tborder"><tr> <td class="tcat" align="center" colspan="3"> <b>User Activity Statistics</b> </td></tr><tr valign="top" align="center"> <td class="thead" align="left">Date</td> <td class="thead">&nbsp;</td> <td class="thead" align="right">Total</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;10,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2.gif" width="78%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1184</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;11,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3.gif" width="86%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1301</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;12,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4.gif" width="84%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1275</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;13,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5.gif" width="83%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1248</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;14,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6.gif" width="81%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1228</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;15,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1.gif" width="79%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1197</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;16,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2.gif" width="67%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1007</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;17,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3.gif" width="71%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1069</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;18,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4.gif" width="88%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1329</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;19,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5.gif" width="83%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1262</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;20,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6.gif" width="83%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1254</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;21,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1.gif" width="85%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1288</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;22,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2.gif" width="79%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1200</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;23,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3.gif" width="72%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1082</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;24,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4.gif" width="78%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1173</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;25,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5.gif" width="85%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1292</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;26,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6.gif" width="87%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1320</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;27,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1.gif" width="83%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1250</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">February&nbsp;28,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2.gif" width="85%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1284</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">February&nbsp;29,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3.gif" width="81%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1221</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">March&nbsp;01,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4.gif" width="73%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1100</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">March&nbsp;02,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5.gif" width="76%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1151</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">March&nbsp;03,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6.gif" width="86%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1295</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">March&nbsp;04,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1.gif" width="84%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1266</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">March&nbsp;05,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2.gif" width="84%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1277</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">March&nbsp;06,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3.gif" width="85%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1280</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">March&nbsp;07,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4.gif" width="82%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar4-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1237</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">March&nbsp;08,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5.gif" width="74%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar5-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1112</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt1">March&nbsp;09,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6.gif" width="87%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar6-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">1321</td></tr><tr><td width="0" class="alt2">March&nbsp;10,&nbsp;2008</td><td width="100%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-l.gif" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1.gif" width="100%" height="10" /><img src="/forums/images/polls/bar1-r.gif" height="10" /></td><td width="0%" class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">1521</td></tr></table>

[WRT]

Wow, see that spike on the 9th/10th. First thought is "what a bunch of vultures" but I was one of them - checking on those I know.

[Maha]

I never post on "biker down" threads, especially the serious ones. Sure I care and sure I'm shocked and saddened, but after all it's a numbers game with the added risk given the physics of 2 wheels and the disproportionate number of k's traveled by the average biker.

Life is cruel and one thing for sure, it will end one way or another. Still, I'd rather die by a Lancer than Cancer.

We're bikers, life with it.


Yup me too... I will only post if I knew the person.


KB is an unnatural thing in a way.... In “real life” a person would never be exposed to this amount of riders on a personal level. Bikers do go down, they do get hurt and at times pass away... but with so many riders concentrated into one place like KB, it becomes a lot more common I to hear about.


Both posts put way better that i managed but in some weird way we are saying the same thing...thank you Finn and Joni for making clear what i was trying to say.

[007XX]

It's still important to be reminded that we're not bullet proof.

It is only human to get into a comfort zone when you practice something on a daily basis , be it racing or road riding, or even crossing the street...

Sure it is a daily occurence that people die, but all need to be looking after themselves and be respectful of the risks we all take just living...

enjoy every moment though...ya only get one chance to make it good!

[SixPackBack]

Like any other addiction we make excuses for our motorcycling habit, the recent Pukekohe double tragedy was a great example. two people die at the event and the event rolled on like nowt has happened???...cries of "that's what the victims would have wanted"..."HTFU"....."that's racing"...and "riders have put a lot of time and money to be here this weekend" , only reinforce how twisted the motorcycle mind can become. Life has become so cheap to us that we make any excuse to continue on with our deadly pursuit.

Just like junkies!

[Mikkel]

Table of forum visitor numbers.

That's impressive! :yes:


Both posts put way better that i managed but in some weird way we are saying the same thing...thank you Finn and Joni for making clear what i was trying to say.

+1


Like any other addiction we make excuses for our motorcycling habit, the recent Pukekohe double tragedy was a great example. two people die at the event and the event rolled on like nowt has happened???...cries of "that's what the victims would have wanted"..."HTFU"....."that's racing"...and "riders have put a lot of time and money to be here this weekend" , only reinforce how twisted the motorcycle mind can become. Life has become so cheap to us that we make any excuse to continue on with our deadly pursuit.

Just like junkies!

Either that, or society has become permeated with an unreal appreciation of the value of the individual and other socialistic and humanitarian virtues, perpetrated by the bleeding hearts, the ideologists and the artists. A set of morals that are only vaguely in touch with the harshness of reality.

Personally I think the truth(TM) is to be found somewhere in the gap between these two extremes.

[Mental Trousers]

I usually count on attending 1 or 2 funerals a year of biker mates. It's a pasttime/lifestyle that has inherent dangers, particularly if a mistake is made.

KB is still growing (quite rapidly I might add, just had the 10,000 registered member on 04/03/2008) so people are being exposed to a larger number of bike riders than ever before. It's just a numbers game - the more we're exposed to the more often we'll find out about deaths.

[Crasherfromwayback]

KB is an unnatural thing in a way.... In “real life” a person would never be exposed to this amount of riders on a personal level. Bikers do go down, they do get hurt and at times pass away... but with so many riders concentrated into one place like KB, it becomes a lot more common to hear about.

In my 21 years in the motorcycle industry, plus 30 years of riding/racing I've known thousands of bikers...and losing them is a sad part of it. You're right Joni....a site like this just makes it easier (but harder if that makes sense) to read about it. Motorcycling is going through a huge boom...more riders = more nasty things happening too. We all love bikes...but they can be cruel.

[Joni]

We all love bikes...but they can be cruel.Yes they can be babe.... its kind of bitter/sweet.

I have lost a few very good friends, both in NZ and SA.

The ones who were injured, but lived to give me more shit I will always be greatful for. (Stonechucker, Skelstar and Shaun)

[SPman]

Yup me too... I will only post if I knew the person.


KB is an unnatural thing in a way.... In “real life” a person would never be exposed to this amount of riders on a personal level. Bikers do go down, they do get hurt and at times pass away... but with so many riders concentrated into one place like KB, it becomes a lot more common to hear about.
I would agree with that.
In 35 yrs riding, I never knew more than a handful of active riders. The 5 odd yrs on KB, I now know, personally, way more than I ever have, and, know of, or have had had online contact with hundreds more. In the "old days", riders would go down, but would be no more than a "oh shit, poor guy", from seeing a mention on the news, whereas now.........well......with the weekends tragedy, when I saw the headlines, the immediate thought was "Oh god, who is it, is it someone I know" as the brain raced through a list of names of who was likely to be there!
The idea of increased carnage, is because, more and more, we can put a name or face to those involved.
KB, and the like, have made it a lot more real and personal. If that's a good thing, or not, is up to the individual - it can certainly be a discomforting thing.
It certainly makes me more aware.

[Mom]

There have been some good posts on this thread. The KB community allows us to get to know, either online or increasinly in person a disproportionate number of people that ride motorcycles. We all know and appreciate (at least some of us do anyway) that the sport we love can be dangerous and unforgiving. We dont stop riding, but manage the risks we face in our own way.

It is always a tragedy when a life is cut short for what ever reason, it is always very sad when a life reaches its natural time to end.

My views on biker down threads are well known, I dont like them at all. I dont post on them, and have been very lucky to have not lost a mate on a bike for many years. I pray that I am never moved to make a post on a biker down thread.

[ynot slow]

Not morbid at all,even though in todays paper there was another guy fatally injured in the nth island,do we know them?Usually only via the net,sometimes personally.

I see any death as a wake up call to all road users,be it car,truck or bike.Sounds stupid but when you go to ride or drive on the road,you don't expect to get injured or killed,but it can happen.

[James Deuce]

WTF!?

<img src=vvbfgt>

[Unit]

During my life I have lost quite a few mates for various reasons, mostly suicide. Those types of deaths are harder to mourn and harder to understand. Motorcycle accidents you can understand, even if it just doesnt seem right. Its real, cause it can happen to you. Since my time on KB I have made sooo many great mates and life has been awesome since I have started riding. The loss of others has really served as a reminder to me about how dangerous motorcycling really is and that I need to look after myself out there! Losing Uncle B was hard but it has been made easier through my mates on KB, we have all been there to support each other and to help "keep things real". I know that riding is dangerous but I would rather lose my life to riding than to depression.
Brilliant.
I listen. Everyday. I ride loads of Kms, in sometimes extreme conditions, I ride too fast sometimes, I ride in groups and I know way more people than I can previously remember in any one point in time of my life. I hope I take care enough to stick around a bit longer. But even if I do, it may not be my fault, and I may not see it coming. But, I love motorcycling, I love the journey and choose my bike often over a car as a means of transport.
I remember when T.I.E went down, was on my birthday so I will never forget the date. He took a very nasty knock to the head, required the helecopter, had the meanist black eye for over a month, and is still 18 months later dealing with the fallout. Back on his bike though and out and about with us all. I've nursed Chris through some pretty knarley injuries too, his leg was ripped open to the bone and it took 12 weeks for the wound to Start healing over.
But I've also lost friend to horse riding accidents.
Least we forget aye Brett

[surfchick]

Events this weekend were so tragic and sad I almost can't type :(
The accident -the devastating ripple of pain and instant grief amongst the riders who eventually took to the grid. The post-classics class opted not to race to bring what had become an-navigatable day to a close quicker. Riders who still took to the track opting to take it easier, who even with all that speed, noticed the place of the tragedy with each lap. Yet other riders gave the spectators the performance of their lives. I doubt the gravity of taking to the grid after this was lost on anyone, riders or organisers alike.

What struck me was that such alot of the cluster of spectators at the hairpin turned out to be on this site (from the posts in the other thread) -and there couldn't have been more than 20-30 in total. KB for me does mean a form of mourning and a form of respect giving when anyone passes who has family on this site-esp when the threads showing the extent of sadness around the death can be used as something to hang on to or have for those ones grieving.

Thoughtful post Quasi.

[rainman]

Yup, these motorcycle things are kinda dangerous. But the price of the freedom and joy of riding them is the increased chance of injury or death. And those chances get worse with the addition of factors like speed, intoxication (rider or those in the vicinity), distraction, fatigue, poor maintenance, crap road surface, animals, idiots, weather, mechanical failure (bike or surrounding vehicles), idiotic road barriers,... and just plain bad luck.

Every time you get on a bike you fully accept these economics. You may think you have super skillz are ten feet tall and bulletproof and it'll never happen to you... whatever, your delusions are irrelevant - you choose to ride, so you choose to accept the risks. Ain't being grown up fun?

And mourning loss is just part of being human, it's how we're wired. If you didn't do it you'd be a sociopath.

[jrandom]

it seems to me that the last few years have been quite tragic...

I'm with the folk who put it down to increased membership numbers combined with the ongoing fact that bikers die on the road, end of story. Always have, always will. Two wheels and an engine with a young man in control is, statistically speaking, a recipe for carnage.

Weighing it up, I've always felt that the positives of knowing lots of other riders outweigh the negatives. I won't hide away from it all.

I've been on KB for almost five years, now, and I've known and ridden with several of the guys on your list. I wasn't as close to any of them as you were to Bruce and Daryl, but I know that it's entirely possible that one day, one of my close friends will cop it.

I've considered that fact at length, and I'll deal with that when it happens. I don't think it'd change an awful lot for me.

Not that I'm meaning to sound fatalistic; after all, every moment on a motorcycle, we're in control, we make the decisions. Sometimes, when we fuck up, it's fatal.

Nature of the beast. Accept, move on. Do one's own best to stay safe. Nowt else that can really be said.

[Katman]

It's the deaths that result from idiotic behaviour that get me though. Those that happen under controlled circumstances like racing and even the ones on the road that are a mixture of bad luck and/or questionable decision making, while still tragic, can be understandable. Stupidity that results in death should not be acceptable because, like it or not, they reflect on us all in the public's eye and in my mind Biker Down threads try to throw a blanket of acceptibility over accidents regardless of the circumstances.

[Skyryder]

Not much I can say that has not already been said. We do what we do and hope to keep on doing it. There are no guarentees in life and there are less with riding.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Like any other addiction we make excuses for our motorcycling habit, the recent Pukekohe double tragedy was a great example. two people die at the event and the event rolled on like nowt has happened???...cries of "that's what the victims would have wanted"..."HTFU"....."that's racing"...and "riders have put a lot of time and money to be here this weekend" , only reinforce how twisted the motorcycle mind can become. Life has become so cheap to us that we make any excuse to continue on with our deadly pursuit.

Just like junkies!


There was a time when a death occured the meet was cancelled out of respect.

Changing times, changing values.

Some still do

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2003/08/13/story109527.asp



Skyyrder

[Mom]

It's the deaths that result from idiotic behaviour that get me though......Stupidity that results in death should not be acceptable because, like it or not, they reflect on us all in the public's eye and in my mind Biker Down threads try to throw a blanket of acceptibility over accidents regardless of the circumstances.

You cant stop stupidity mate, nor bad decisons, nor youthful exhuberance, nor non-youthful exhuberance, read my posts regarding biker down. People make their own choices, good or bad. We love them or we dont (both people and choices) Its life.

We are going to read more and more about members and friends of members dying on bikes as this forum grows, we have to accept it, there is nothing that can be done to alter anyones behaviour, or how long they spend on this earth.

[merv]

As Finn says it is a numbers game. If we were a cage forum would we be lamenting the 300 - 400 lost per year i.e. 6 to 8 per week. Now other than SpankMe I guess most of us drive cars too and while the risk is probably lower per km driven we still risk our lives every time we leave home in the car. On the bike its the same. The World is out to get you and we just have to be as vigilant as we can be.

This type of medium sure brings it all close to home. As for racing, the 60's & 70's was the time when deaths were frequent all over the world with many high profile names disappearing - e.g Bill Ivy, Kim Newcombe, Cal Rayborn. The safety record of late has been better - we don't have the two strokes seizing all the time, the tracks are safer.

If we get too concerned about this we would never get out of bed in the morning, but then perhaps still get anxious how lying in bed something fatal may happen to us like a truck or plane crashing into our house.

[Manxman]

I actually believe sites like this have something to do with it. Back when I started riding motorcycles like an idiot I had plenty of people telling me I was an idiot and not many saying "You're the man". Via the internet it's not terribly difficult to get enough supporters behind you that you begin to not hear the ones calling you an idiot. These days it's possible to even organise large group rides made up entirely of idiots.

I take the positive view that this site helps reduce the number of accidents, not increase them. To read that sobering first post by Quasi and then not have even a little voice going on in the back of yer head, means yer probably gonna be toast regardless. I mean, if you're not persuaded to take fewer risks/ride safer by threads such as "Survival Skills", then you're a lost cause and will prolly end up as a statistic whatever form of transport you use.

Is it possible that as this site has grown (exponentially), it increases the chance that you will know someone who leaves us...?

Conclusion: I suspect more people are safer because of this site. I'd like to think I am...

[Quasievil]

Some good comments out of all this I think.
Alot of comments saying thats what we do, its a numbers game, it better to die on a bike than from depression etc etc etc, and yes maybe valid but many also selfish, just a quick point though, and that is to be the dead one is the easy bit, youre dead........gone and final, the pain and suffering is amongst the families and friends who you care for, so just to throw this into the fold, Those of us that do ride on the edge abit from time to time or choose to take risks are essentially being extremely selfish.
For Example, during the day when Loosebruce took out Dss3 he was basically being selfish dick and was not really thinking of anyone else apart from his gaining that sqilly second BUZZ (and another and another), Infact he usually rode in this way.
So the Point is, ride for your families and freinds sake as well, it not just your life you have on the line, its the lives of many.

[Disco Dan]

And that's why, a while ago, I tried suggesting that this site takes a far more active role in condemning irresponsible behaviour on motorcycles. (And I believe there has been a noticeable improvement in that respect of late).

I agree, but not over the top PC stuff...

We - as a community of motorcycle enthusiasts we have an obligation, a duty to look after each other... I dont agree that we should allow posts about 'how to wheelie' or 'how funny it is to annoy cars' etc etc but I do understand that others have different opinions and think that it is ok. Which is fine, we are a very diverse group and KB is a unique forum for bringing together such diversity. I am not requesting a change, mearly voicing my opinion.

As others have said - as the population of KB increases the amount of riders being seriously injured/killed will increase.

Look at the transport ministry - they squel on about road deaths increasing without looking at the increase in vehicles on the roads.

It still does not make accidents ok but just a bit of perspective?

[nonferrous]

Coming home from work this afternoon 5.00pm on southern between Otahuhu and Mt wellington the traffic was almost stand still - like walking pace - and I get rear ended in the car by another car - she was so sorry etc - this car is a loan car for my other car which is in the panel beaters atm after being T boned as I exit roundabout by a car rushing to airport - they were so sorry too - if I was on my bike and couldn’t escape I would be either dead or seriously injured -

Everyone please stay conscious of the insanity out there on our roads

[Grahameeboy]

Lost 6 mates before I was 20 and still riding...

To put it in perspective, how many mates do we know who have suffered serious non-bike related issues, cancer etc...

Life and Death are what we are about...life goes on...death ends..,

[FROSTY]

The thought in my mind when a fellow rider dies is usually -There but for the grace of God go I.

[twotyred]

I too have been thinking about this alot lately...

cheers Quasi

[Brett]

Quasi, I know exactly, 100% what you mean as it is something I have been struggling with since Patrick (Oarbreaker) died earlier this year. There have been a lot of injuries and deaths in our community, and it is hard to adjust to it.
Like you, I sit here wondering who will be next and when. And when it happens, I am not surprised, gutted/hurt but not surprised. And I sit here wondering whether it will be me next that gets done. It is very easy, one slip on concentration, automatic/robot riding in traffic for a single minute, one missed line at a trackday when you are pushing too hard etc. and it could lead to life long consequences.
Now, I dont say any of the above as a bleeding heart, I know this is biking, we know the risks and rules and we choose to play the game. The thing for me, as I am guessing it is for you, is whether it is a game that I want to play or be involved with anymore.
That aside, the companionship and friends that you meet from all over the country make it so incredibly unique and one can only wonder whether it is a case of 'where the risks are greater, the rewards are too'. Would we want to undo the losses and subsequently undo the gains?

[Okey Dokey]

Very thoughtful post, Quasi. I guess I agree with manxman that although kb biker down threads are mourning, the overall kb site encourages bikers to think about what they are doing, and how they ride.

As has already been said, the sensible among us have probably reflected in a mature manner about the risks vs pleasures of biking and made our decisions to carry on motorcycling.

The less sensible among us just may not be among us very long; either they will become sensible or they will cease to be.

Thanks for giving us another opportunity to reflect on our freedom of choice.

[James Deuce]

There's so much hypocrisy on this site I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Thanks very much.

[MadDuck]

So i read the first few posts at work today and the last few tonight and anything in between doesnt really count.

I hear what you are saying Bret and respect what you say as I always have.

BUT heres my thoughts. Yes we have a kind of hobby that may get us killed. I have done a lot of scuba diving over the years and theres big fish with sharp teeth want me for supper. I have lost a few mates through diving. Why do I do it ...because I love living on the edge..else I will wrap myself in cotton wool and oh what a boring life that would be.

A site like KB means we actually get to know more bikers than we would meet normally. Unfortunately it also comes with its negatives. I know or have met every person you mentioned and am sad at losing such good people. But my life is enriched by meeting them.

[nonferrous]

There's so much hypocrisy on this site I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Thanks very much.

care to elaborate ?

[Ixion]

Hm. A "time to reflect " maybe.

Nothings changed since then. Nothing will. This'll be in PD soon enough, or the darker vaults where its forbears lie buried. There'll be more funerals before the year's out. Yep, you, and you and , hm, yes you. And maybe more.

[James Deuce]

care to elaborate ?
Yes, OK.

I don't smell of stale piss because I wet my pants.

It's because I've been pissing this message into the void for years, only to have the massed KB exhalation of , "Fuck Off Grandad", blow it back in my face.

[MadDuck]

perhaps you and Paul in NZ need to go for a drink together real soon

[James Deuce]

perhaps you and Paul in NZ need to go for a drink together real soon
Our respective and respected wives wont let us do that anymore. We're too annoying. Apparently. We seem to have a good time, just no one else does. Apparently.

[Maha]

Our respective and respected wives wont let us do that anymore. We're too annoying. Apparently. We seem to have a good time, just no one else does. Apparently.

Drummers aye?.....Boom Tish!

[nonferrous]

Yes, OK.

I don't smell of stale piss because I wet my pants.

It's because I've been pissing this message into the void for years, only to have the massed KB exhalation of , "Fuck Off Grandad", blow it back in my face.

cheers but don't really get it - what is the message ?

[James Deuce]

I know.

There's nothing anyone, including Quasi, can do to fix that either.

[Katman]

Yes, OK.

I don't smell of stale piss because I wet my pants.

It's because I've been pissing this message into the void for years, only to have the massed KB exhalation of , "Fuck Off Grandad", blow it back in my face.

Step up to the plate Jim. Your time has come.:msn-wink:

[Ixion]

cheers but don't really get it - what is the message ?

Precisely so. You don't. Don't worry , you've plenty of company.We try, but round here the messengers get shot. A few figure it out, enough to keep the faith alive.

[Mike748]

Some good comments out of all this I think.
Alot of comments saying thats what we do, its a numbers game, it better to die on a bike than from depression etc etc etc, and yes maybe valid but many also selfish, just a quick point though, and that is to be the dead one is the easy bit, youre dead........gone and final, the pain and suffering is amongst the families and friends who you care for, so just to throw this into the fold, Those of us that do ride on the edge abit from time to time or choose to take risks are essentially being extremely selfish.
For Example, during the day when Loosebruce took out Dss3 he was basically being selfish dick and was not really thinking of anyone else apart from his gaining that sqilly second BUZZ (and another and another), Infact he usually rode in this way.
So the Point is, ride for your families and freinds sake as well, it not just your life you have on the line, its the lives of many.

Good posts,
I also agree with the numbers game.
Being responsible for up to 75 staff at a time I have seen deaths, major surgery and cancer sweep through like a cold or flue with everyone looking for explanations, this made me stop and think, how? why? can I prevent it happening to me?

For me each time I read a biker down thread it keeps the risk real and closer to home, before KB I was isolated and would only ever catch the occasional accident report on the news, this made it less real, less risky.
Now I consider myself more aware of the risks and therefore before heading out for some fun I think of MsKABC, our 7wk old boy and what if?

Also it will forever remain true that "you cannot put an old head on young shoulders" and some will never grow up.

[MadDuck]

Precisely so. You don't. Don't worry , you've plenty of company.We try, but round here the messengers get shot. A few figure it out, enough to keep the faith alive.

Move away from the dictionary.....

[Reckless]

Like any other addiction we make excuses for our motorcycling habit, the recent Pukekohe double tragedy was a great example. two people die at the event and the event rolled on like nowt has happened???...cries of "that's what the victims would have wanted"..."HTFU"....."that's racing"...and "riders have put a lot of time and money to be here this weekend" , only reinforce how twisted the motorcycle mind can become. Life has become so cheap to us that we make any excuse to continue on with our deadly pursuit.

Just like junkies!

I have read this attitude in two threads now, I'm pretty sure the other was the RIP thread for those poor guys. I let it pass then out of respect for the thread but cannot now as I disagree very strongly! Ask any racer pre race, if he would want the meeting canned because of an accident he was involved in or even killed in and I'm pretty damn sure 99.999% would say no, let it go on. From what I witnessed in the Pits at Puke when I was pitting for my mate in Post classics there was no HTFU expressed at all by anyone, in any class, period. And it is pretty insulting to imply that racers have that little feeling for their mates. The Postie racers voluntarily withdrew their class so the meeting could go on, on time. My guy was from Wellington and did it with no complaint. It has nothing what so ever to do with money, but alot to do with the understanding of the sport. I could go on about a fallen riders understanding the effort that his mates put in and understanding the many passionate hours spent in the garage before a meeting, also not wanting to disappoint the public in showing there support by turning up and many other points in favour of carrying on from the fallen riders perspective. But I won't as I'm sure you all get my drift from the above. I have never ever met anyone that would want the whole show stopped because of any event they where involved in "period". And everyone in the pits at Puke was simply gutted!! Believe me when I say there lives where not "so cheap" (as you put it).

RIP the fallen

My 2c.:angry2:

[fireball]

this is a good thread Quasi

when it comes down to it we can only control so much as to what happens to us out there, we have a say in our own safety you know the risks and you buy gear to minimise the risk as much as you can, but sometimes things just cant be controlled and accidents happen you get hurt or killed
its life. but if you live your life to its fullest and remember to tell the ones you love how you feel, when it is your time to go friends and family can remember you for your zest for life and passion.

I dont drive cars at all, i only hold a class 6 and thats the way it will always be i dont feel safe in cars infact they scare me more than the prospect of being killed on my bike. i have accepted the risks of my decision and everyday when i get on a bike i know that if its my last ride then so be it, everything happens for a reason.

[onearmedbandit]

Re the message thing.

Young people and guns
Young people and cars
Young people and drinking
Young people and extreme sports
Young people and just about anything you care to name.

Now you could substitute 'Young people' for say 'idiots' as to not only discriminate against the young. But young people will push the boundaries in whatever they do, they will not listen to those who have been there before, they will not listen to those who say they know better. Why do young people go to war, despite granddad telling them atrocious stories of death and pain? Because they are young. Nothing will change it, it's in mankind's makeup. In fact it's there for a reason, this lack of consequential thought process, so that we will push boundaries, to develop new and improved techniques. Just mankind was never intended to ride 160hp motorcycles, drive 300hp cars, or be in possession of a gun (ever looked on youtube at videos of young people with guns or explosives).

Now most of these young folk get through ok, either completely scar free or with a few battle wounds to show their grandkids. And some don't. Most of those that survive adolescence go on to understand just how lucky we were, wise up a lot, stop taking such stupid risks, and lead long enjoyable lives. And then there are those that don't, and they make up the 'idiot' category.

Now unless you can change what happens in the adolescents brain, you will never get them to listen, you will never get them to understand. You're best to just take away all their dangerous toys.

And give them to me. I'm all grown up now and only lost an arm!

[Mekk]

I actually believe sites like this have something to do with it. Back when I started riding motorcycles like an idiot I had plenty of people telling me I was an idiot and not many saying "You're the man". Via the internet it's not terribly difficult to get enough supporters behind you that you begin to not hear the ones calling you an idiot. These days it's possible to even organise large group rides made up entirely of idiots.

I imagine that ties in with the whole power of anonymity thing. I wonder how many would encourage dangerous riding in person?

[terbang]

don't forget "Korowetere"

runciman rd
Yeah I ride up Runciman a lot, always have a thought for that guy. That website his family did was so sad.. Got me thinking a lot more.

[terbang]

I've been around bikes and planes for a while now. I've actually been to more funerals of aviators than bikers. Especially the helicopter people. As Crasherfrom wayback says, they can be cruel and also unforgiving of slip ups in judgement. Don't want to downplay the lives lost and certainly would prefer it if we could all take a zero tolerance attitude toward motorcycle fatalities. However, like the aviators, we as motorcyclists should learn from the mistakes of others. Not in a disrespectful way, but with the intention of educating those that continue riding. If I were killed in a an accident I would prefer if people publicly discussed the accident, including any shortfalls that I may have made and learn something from it. It may save someone elses skin and if so, then my demise wouldn't have entirely been in vain.

[Kendog]

we as motorcyclists should learn from the mistakes of others. Not in a disrespectful way, but with the intention of educating those that continue riding.

Totally agree with this, but seems to be lacking round here.

[SixPackBack]

I have read this attitude in two threads now, I'm pretty sure the other was the RIP thread for those poor guys. I let it pass then out of respect for the thread but cannot now as I disagree very strongly! Ask any racer pre race, if he would want the meeting canned because of an accident he was involved in or even killed in and I'm pretty damn sure 99.999% would say no, let it go on.

With all due respect Reckless I think you missed the point, the racers will always go back out, after all they are the "racing junkie". But what about support staff at the event, the wives and children of the fallen, the crowd gathered to watch. And what about respect, common decency. All fall by the wayside so the racers can get their next fix

From what I witnessed in the Pits at Puke when I was pitting for my mate in Post classics there was no HTFU expressed at all by anyone, in any class, period. And it is pretty insulting to imply that racers have that little feeling for their mates.

I would never suggest that Reckless. What I suggest is the over riding want to get out on the track again over rides the collective judgement.

The Postie racers voluntarily withdrew their class so the meeting could go on, on time. My guy was from Wellington and did it with no complaint. It has nothing what so ever to do with money, but alot to do with the understanding of the sport. I could go on about a fallen riders understanding the effort that his mates put in and understanding the many passionate hours spent in the garage before a meeting, also not wanting to disappoint the public in showing there support by turning up and many other points in favour of carrying on from the fallen riders perspective.

Erroneous points of discussion compared to the bigger picture. And please don't assume that's what the riders wanted as we shall never know.


But I won't as I'm sure you all get my drift from the above. I have never ever met anyone that would want the whole show stopped because of any event they where involved in "period". And everyone in the pits at Puke was simply gutted!! Believe me when I say there lives where not "so cheap" (as you put it).

RIP the fallen

My 2c.:angry2:

I respect your post and point of view Reckless, but much like yourself strongly disagree. Life it seems is now so cheap a major tragedy can occur and racing is not stopped and the general public not informed. In my mind that represents appalling bad taste.

[fLaThEaD FreD]

Im interested in the thoughts of my fellow Bikers about this subject.
Ive been a biker for, hell ,EVER being an old bugger I have been around for a while and it seems to me that the last few years have been quite tragic there have been many close friends and fellow bikers being seriously hurt and or killed.
When I first joined KB about 5 years ago it seems to me (bad memory syndrome) that we never really had as much serious carnage certainly not like what we do now,and these days its on a reasonable regular basis.
For me In the last ,.....say 2 years I have lost a fair number of mates from motorbike crashes, why and hows arent what this thread is about,
this thread is saying the more you get into the Motorcycling world via racing forums etc the more mates you will loose as a result of crashes, it seems obvious to me know that this is the price I pay for knowing so many bikers, the trouble is Im not sure how comfortable I am paying this price anymore.
I can name these guys whom I have known that have been hurt or who have died recently
Not in Order

Flyin (died)
OldFart (died)
Loosebruce (died)
Shaun Harris (seriously injured)
DSS3 (Died)
Stonechucker (seriusly injured)
MotoBob (seriously injured)
UncleB (died)
Derek hill (died)
inlinefour (seriously injured)
Oarbreaker (died)
Skelstar (seriously injured)
Razya (died)

(anyone not there I forgot, or didnt actually know them)

8 Dead
5 badly Injured

Thats just guys I know, some very closely and some as online mates. But all I have met.

So whats this all about, well its a wake up call, its a hey guys be careful............NO NO seriously........ Be careful !!
This is getting mental and deeply worrying, for me at least, I mean who of you is next ? based on the above it will only be a few weeks before one of you dies, horrible thing to say isnt it? but im afraid its reality.

In light of the last few days with the recent deaths at Pukekohe I guess its made the heart feel even heavier and has got me thinking whats around the corner for me, who is it next, is it me? when do I get another phone call or read a post about another incident, kinda depressing aint it?

thats about it, little Quasi bleet over

in a Somber mood, but not depressed (for the record)

Let them all be remembered

[Katman]

Now unless you can change what happens in the adolescents brain, you will never get them to listen, you will never get them to understand. You're best to just take away all their dangerous toys.



It's not just adolescents that meet the 'idiot' criteria. And it won't just be adolescents who lose their toys if the government decide to intervene.

[Bass]

I'm with the folk who put it down to increased membership numbers combined with the ongoing fact that bikers die on the road, end of story. Always have, always will. Two wheels and an engine with a young man in control is, statistically speaking, a recipe for carnage.

Not that I'm meaning to sound fatalistic; after all, every moment on a motorcycle, we're in control, we make the decisions. Sometimes, when we fuck up, it's fatal.

Nature of the beast. Accept, move on. Do one's own best to stay safe. Nowt else that can really be said.

There's a modicum of wisdom here.
Most of us accept that motorcycling is a risky passtime, but what I have never understood is the attitude that accepts that people must die, that it is inevitable and that we can do nothing about it (and I am not trying to put words in Jrandom's mouth here, rather, I am adding to what he said)
It's NOT inevitable, we CAN do something about it and I have issues with those who put down the people who try.
I am not a dreamer who imagines that we can ever succeed 100%, but I do believe that It can get a shitload worse if we ever stop trying.
So yet again - thanks Quasi

[MSTRS]

There's a modicum of wisdom here.
Most of us accept that motorcycling is a risky passtime, but what I have never understood is the attitude that accepts that people must die, that it is inevitable and that we can do nothing about it (and I am not trying to put words in Jrandom's mouth here, rather, I am adding to what he said)
It's NOT inevitable, we CAN do something about it and I have issues with those who put down the people who try.
I am not a dreamer who imagines that we can ever succeed 100%, but I do believe that It can get a shitload worse if we ever stop trying.
So yet again - thanks Quasi

Dan is right - there is a risk associated with motorcycling. A risk that is greater than in (most) other forms of transport. It IS inevitable that some will get caught out - if they didn't, it is either because they managed the risk effectively, or the perceived risk is not real. Which is it to be?
Ixion mentioned a sore point (with me at least) 'A time to reflect'...that thread is still locked away from the general view. Time to re-instate it, I think, because it was on the very subject of this thread, which is a poignant reminder of the realities of motorcycling, coupled with the opportunity to teach/learn some restraint whilst in control of a machine capable of so much pleasure and pain.

[onearmedbandit]

It's not just adolescents that meet the 'idiot' criteria. And it won't just be adolescents who lose their toys if the government decide to intervene.

Read my post again. I said that there are those that grow past adolescence who then become idiots. And yes you are right, the govt will take away the toys. As they have done in the past (fireworks anyone?). But I still feel that while inexcusable behaviour is exactly that, inexcusable, you will never weed it out of mankind.

[Swoop]

Almost 11,000 memebers on Kiwibiker
A statistic that is possibly irrelevant.

KB is still growing (quite rapidly I might add, just had the 10,000 registered member on 04/03/2008)
As above, but there is a massive amount of members who have signed up then departed. I spent a little while looking at this yesterday, and the amount of "short timers" is staggering.
It is like a shop saying "we have XXX customers" while counting the people through the door and disregarding the number of people putting cash through the till. (bad comparison, I know.)

Two wheels and an engine with a young man in control is, statistically speaking, a recipe for carnage.
A very good and valid point. Quasi's list is very sexist. Female "biker down" threads are unheard of.

As Finn says it is a numbers game. If we were a cage forum would we be lamenting the 300 - 400 lost per year i.e. 6 to 8 per week.
I have to disagree with this. The community is far tighter on 2 wheels. A small community of cagers, probably a club or a specific interest, would mourn their friends, but on the whole they probably don't give a tinkers cuss about the "overall" road deaths.

I respect your post and point of view Reckless, but much like yourself strongly disagree. Life it seems is now so cheap a major tragedy can occur and racing is not stopped and the general public not informed. In my mind that represents appalling bad taste.
Reality check for some people? There is no "reset" button to press and re-commence the game.

[Mikkel]

There's a modicum of wisdom here.
Most of us accept that motorcycling is a risky passtime, but what I have never understood is the attitude that accepts that people must die, that it is inevitable and that we can do nothing about it (and I am not trying to put words in Jrandom's mouth here, rather, I am adding to what he said)
It's NOT inevitable, we CAN do something about it and I have issues with those who put down the people who try.
I am not a dreamer who imagines that we can ever succeed 100%, but I do believe that It can get a shitload worse if we ever stop trying.
So yet again - thanks Quasi

I agree with what MSTRS wrote.

Death is indeed inevitable, no matter whether you get on a motorcycle or not. Time is flying and we have to try and make the most of it...

The possibility of grievous bodily harm is almost always present if you choose to engage in just about anything that'll make you heart pound and/or mind buzz. (Sex and computer games are a couple of exceptions - although they can cause damage in other ways...)

If, as an individual, you choose to engage in such activity I think it would be desirable if you at least sit down and reflect upon the possible consequences. If you have trouble accepting the possibility perhaps you should refrain from engaging in such activity in the first place.
Surrounding just about all such activities there's a more or less tightly knit community. If you engage socially with your fellow community members it is, given enough time, unthinkable that one of your mates isn't going to pass away (if not from an accident else then at least old age/cancer/you name it) - and the passing of a mate, no matter what the reason, will always be a sad thing.

I agree with you Bass that it is important to try and do something about it. Because while we can not, as you say, remove motorcycling fatalities it may be possible to reduce them.
However, I think a realistic perspective (death is inevitable, but we have some impact upon when, where and how we take it) is a better foundation to build upon.
Oh, and as Quasi said - no one listens. I don't know about that - but there sure are a lot of people who doesn't.

[MSTRS]

Just to clarify, re the 'inevitable' comment....it is not inevitable that a particular individual is going to crash and die (that can be avoided) but it is that 'someone' will.

[Deviant Esq]

There are plenty of people who seem not to listen, but that the message does get through to. To the messengers of this forum, it seems as though noone is listening, but mostly none who has paid attention and has changed his ways has made a post to say "wow that's great advice, that's me from now on." They've read it, not posted, had a think about it, moved on, and found themselves being more careful out there. The message is getting through to some people, making them and others safer. If only we could do something about the drunk drivers and boy racers, not to mention soccer mums in supersized SUVs, crazed delivery vans and taxis....

RIP our fallen friends. Lest we forget.

[McJim]

I listen. I tried a faster bike (my wife's) and realised I posess a lot less self control than I thought I did. I'll stick to the bike I've got - it can still get me into trouble but it's not as effortless to get into trouble as a litre sportsbike so it gives me the time I need to re-think my actions as I approach the "I'm in trouble" zone.

And yes, I am aware that you can have a disaster at almost any speed.

[Lissa]

When Skel had his accident my mum was asked if she was worried about me having one. Her comment was no because I dont ride fast.

I had to correct her, how fast I ride has nothing to do with not crashing. There are so many variables that could go wrong as soon as you climb on your bike. I could crash due to someone elses stupidity, my own stupidity, road conditions, weather conditions etc etc.

All that I can do is understand the risks, and ride as safely as I can within my limits. I can not control anyone else's riding and especially with the people I care about I just have to trust they know there own limits. I can not tell anyone, even Skel that I don't want him to ride because I am scared he will crash again, this is something that only he can decide and work through.

I like to think I take some lessons or learn from others mistakes as I really dont want to have that one big mistake which will cost me and my loved ones too much.

[Ixion]

Go read this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=69194), reflect on the attitudes it highlights, then come back here and say whether you think there's any hope.

[MSTRS]

When Skel had his accident my mum was asked if she was worried about me having one. Her comment was no because I dont ride fast.

I had to correct her, how fast I ride has nothing to do with not crashing. There are so many variables that could go wrong as soon as you climb on your bike. I could crash due to someone elses stupidity, my own stupidity, road conditions, weather conditions etc etc.

All that I can do is understand the risks, and ride as safely as I can within my limits. I can not control anyone else's riding and especially with the people I care about I just have to trust they know there own limits. I can not tell anyone, even Skel that I don't want him to ride because I am scared he will crash again, this is something that only he can decide and work through.

I like to think I take some lessons or learn from others mistakes as I really dont want to have that one big mistake which will cost me and my loved ones too much.

And this, people, would be the most sensible and realistic post on this subject that I have ever read.
There's a few on here that should have Lissa's words of wisdom tattooed to the inside of their eyelids.

[FROSTY]

My attitude towards this and similar threads to it over the past years is pretty simple.
They DO do some good.
The way I see it is if it makes ONE ydfoc (young dumb full o....)
sit back for a moment and rething his riding even just for one day hey ya might have just saved his/her life.
Given that we aint cats with 9 of the buggers to spend. TODAY maybee he gets to live another day.

[90s]

Alot of comments saying thats what we do, its a numbers game, ....
For Example, during the day when Loosebruce took out Dss3 he was basically being selfish dick and was not really thinking of anyone else apart from his gaining that sqilly second BUZZ (and another and another), Infact he usually rode in this way.

I think this addresses your original question. It is not just a numbers game. It is not just that the KB community is more aware of accidents. Riding behaviour and related accidents have changed over your time riding and led to a different type of accident profile.
Group based riding used to not be common, or of a different nature (ie. cruisers in packs rather than 'coro loop' style riding groups. Accidents between bikes were rare, but now make up a large portion of bike accidents.
Far from the emphasis on 'young idiots' in this forum, the most at risk groups are males between 34-45, esp. those that have 'returned' to biking.
So your observation is not an articfact of more information, but you correctly have seen a real shift in biker accidents.
If you are in the risk group and go on a group ride you are in a situation where an accident is much more likely than in previous times, where this type of riding was less common, and anonymous riding groups were also less common.
All the other posts are also true, but reflect what was, is and will continue to be true about the risks of biking. Modern practice has added an additional layer of bike-v-bike accidents.
There is no reason for many of these accidents, like the sad death of loosebruce and DSS3. Unlike the inherent dangers of motorbiking this is something that is in our control and if we want we can reduce the growing numbers of accidents of this type.

[FROSTY]

On a different vein I must say I FOR ME disagree with Sixpacback Regarding closing a meeting down if I was to die.
I know there is NO comparisson but I was apsolutely gutted when told that my accident in may caused the cancellation of the Vic Club meeting that day.
If I died I would hope that the meeting carried on.

[90s]

I can not control anyone else's riding and especially with the people I care about I just have to trust they know there own limits.

Well you can choose not to ride with people who's riding you can't control and/or don't trust.
If a road is very dangerous for bikes you can find another longer route.
If you can not control the environment you can choose not to enter it or find ways to adapt it.

[Daffyd]

A very, very pertinent thread!

As some of you know, I have 4 sons and a daughter, all of whom ride, or have ridden bikes. Only my daughter has given up, a bit hard to cart 2 kids around on a scooter.
Recently 3 of my sons and I completed a 10 day tour of the South Island, (no 4 is on his OE.) We don't often ride all together, but make it a priority to do at least one good ride together each year.
I am under no illusions that, statisically, one of us will die on the road. I hope not. Some of the best moments of my life have been spent on the road with my boys, and if the unthinkable happens, then I will not say, "I wish we had not taken up riding." Sure, there will be a huge hole in the lives of those left behind, but none of us would swap the thrill of riding for a more mundane life.

Personally, all I can do is encourage them to ride with safety in mind, while not seeming to be a nagging old fart!

As an aside, the daily average number of people on the site is 1194.

[TonyB]

As has been said- the nature of this site exposes you to an artificially high number of people, who you would otherwise never meet. So you make more friends. More friends = more chance of one of them dieing.

Then you have the fact that this site has 11,000 or so members and a high number of active members. So you hear about all those accidents too.

Then you have the people who listen to police scanners and post up on KB whenever they hear of an accident...which starts the 'RIP fallen rider" threads.

So you are pretty much reading about EVERY serious motorcycle accident that happens in NZ... Imagine if car drivers were bombarded with info on EVERY serious car accident- it just doesn't happen. The nature of KB is such that if you spend a lot of time on here, you WILL hear about EVERY serious accident.

Its only natural that this will have an effect on many of us.

[James Deuce]

On a different vein I must say I FOR ME disagree with Sixpacback Regarding closing a meeting down if I was to die.
I know there is NO comparisson but I was apsolutely gutted when told that my accident in may caused the cancellation of the Vic Club meeting that day.
If I died I would hope that the meeting carried on.
Of course you would. Like most other bikers, the concept of simple human respect and dignity slides right on by.

"They died doing what they love" has to be the biggest crock of proverbial ever written about anyone who snuffed it ever. It's no solace.

[Swoop]

Far from the emphasis on 'young idiots' in this forum, the most at risk groups are males between 34-45, esp. those that have 'returned' to biking.
According to who?

[Katman]

"They died doing what the love" has to be the biggest crock of proverbial ever written about anyone who snuffed it ever. It's no solace.

I doubt that any person who has attended a fatal accident has seen what could be described as a smile on the deceased's face.

[onearmedbandit]

It's a saying ffs, only there to help those affected by the passing of someone else. No one is actually suggesting people die with a smile on their face. But if the thought of your loved one dying doing something they loved makes the pain a little bit easier then why not?

[Skyryder]

On a different vein I must say I FOR ME disagree with Sixpacback Regarding closing a meeting down if I was to die.
I know there is NO comparisson but I was apsolutely gutted when told that my accident in may caused the cancellation of the Vic Club meeting that day.
If I died I would hope that the meeting carried on.


I don't doubt the sincerity of your convictions. No one wants their actions to be an inconveniance to others be it even because of their own demise. But there a greater issue, as I see it, and that is one of respect. A life has been lost and its 'carry on as normal.' Sorry that's just plain 'old fashioned' wrong.


Skyryder

[FROSTY]

Of course you would. Like most other bikers, the concept of simple human respect and dignity slides right on by.

"They died doing what the love" has to be the biggest crock of proverbial ever written about anyone who snuffed it ever. It's no solace.
We will have to agree to disagree there Jim
I am talking from MY prospective if it happened to ME.
As such if you were showing respect to ME you would indeed carry on.
I'm NOT saying this applies in every or for that matter any other case what I am saying it is what I would want.
My lovely lady may feel different as may my freinds -I respect that.
In the same way as I would respect that YOU feel that if I died YOU would want the meeting /event shut down.

Perhaps sounding hypocitical here but on the same account if someone died at a KB trackday or a meeting I was running my call would be to call it quits on the day.
That would be for the marshals and others out there trying to deal with such a horrible event.

[Crasherfromwayback]

It's a saying ffs, only there to help those affected by the passing of someone else. No one is actually suggesting people die with a smile on their face. But if the thought of your loved one dying doing something they loved makes the pain a little bit easier then why not?

I'm with you there. As much as I'd love to stay 'round forever, I know I won't.

I'd rather be racing bikes or having sex when I depart than sitting at work or mowing lawns.

[Maha]

Some months back I had a chance to let a couple of mates know just how i feel, not going to get into the reasons why but, what i will say is, i had to let them know that I care about them, they mean an awful lot to Anne and myself. Now in the tragic case of Loosebruce and Dss3, would it be fair to say that had Bruce Survived, that he could have been charged with Manslaughter? (at the extreme) I refer to this -- ''Loosebruce took out Dss3''
Its just a case in point, im not having a dig at the deceased. Being responsable for your actions, i agree with Jim2 in that, they/he died what they/he loved doing...na ah, im positive they would much rather be alive doing what they love doing. I have organised 10 rides in the last 2 years, each one without incident, and i have riders turn up that can ride with the best of ya, I have never had to tell anyone to fuck off, which will happen if i think they are putting anyone in danger.

[Maha]

A statistic that is possibly irrelevant.



I agree, but it was totally relevent to what i had to say...if people would read and take in eveything, they would see the relevance of peoples posts, but then again, there would be no debate if a post was read thoroughly.

[MSTRS]

Of course you would. Like most other bikers, the concept of simple human respect and dignity slides right on by.

"They died doing what the love" has to be the biggest crock of proverbial ever written about anyone who snuffed it ever. It's no solace.

I don't usually disagree with you, young fella, but I'll have to here..
Continuing to run a race meeting after a fatality is a call the organisers make on the day. Different day/organisers = different call? Maybe. I don't think it has anything to do with (a lack of) respect tho. People who race, and watch racing, know the risks, and if the worst happens....well...c'est la vie (sort of). Now, as Frosty says, a trackday is a different scenario altogether and fair enough to close that down in such an event.
As far as dying doing what they loved...why not. Just about anything one can say after a death is some sort of platitude. At least that one is honest.

[90s]

According to who?

Some of the information is difficult to unpack or not recorded. According to sources and the police and BRONZ, the I have seen (but do not have record of) that motorcycle vs motorcyle incidents on a continious curve over the last 10 years, from a very low base. I am not implying they form a large number, but a rising category. You will note that the classification v22 (motorcycle rider injured in collision with 2 or 3 wheeled vehicle) data is not easily available (for example from http://www.otago.ac.nz/ipru/Reports/ImpactInjury200502.pdf) and generally not recorded in data through LTNZ (ie. in http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf).
The type of accident is poorly recorded, but I think a real issue.

As for the age this is interesting - esp. bearing in mind the overall reduction in motorcyle deaths (makes the above even more relevant). Please see tables "motorcycle deaths and injuries by age group" and esp. "motorcyclsts killed and injured by selected age groups":
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf
You will note the trends esp in the 2nd table for the deaths in the group 2-24 yrs vs. the groups 30-39 and 40 and over.
Examining:
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/section4-motorcycles-2006.pdf
also shows the reducing number of deaths - against the general perception of this thread - to about 1/3 of 1980 levels in toto (see figure 19 and also table "deaths and injuries of motorcycle riders and pillion passengers 1980-2006", source: http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf)
and as a percentage of overall road deaths down from 20% to 6-7% 'only', although the first source comparable but slightly different figs.)
Fig 20 "percentage of motorcyle casualties by age and sex" conflates injuries and deaths so gives a different view, but the 'hump' of riders between 30-54 is clear. A review of several sources in addition to these confirms what I said earlier, and you can review that is generally older riders on bigger bikes who have high risk of death. Ask BRONZ too.

I have to do some work, but again back to FROSTY's thread, the perception is not reality. The reason riders like you and me, older riders on bigger bikes, are more likely to be killed despite safety improvement and an overall decline in deaths from motorcycling is because of the way we are riding.
Don't think I don't reflect on that a lot.

[Ixion]

I don't have the sources, but I have seen data that suggests that younger riders are more likely to crash and/or be injured. But older riders, crash less often , but when they do it's more likely to be fatal.

Which sort of makes sense I think. Novices (and born agains) often have minor (though perhaps still painful) crashes. Often that puts them off , and they move on away from bikes.

Those who perservere soon learn survival skills that enable them to avoid the typical "overshot the bend and ended up in the ditch" or "collected by car that didn't give way" crashes. But when they do get caught out it's likely to be nasty.

One must be very careful about such figures though. firstly to check that they actually relate to NZ - data from other countries, with different licence rules, helmet laws etc may not be at all applicable. And careful that it is as up to date as possible. The demography of motorcycling is changing quite fast.

10 years ago for instance, it was almost certain that older riders would be the most represented in crash statistics. Simply because there were bugger all young ones taking up riding. Now, we have a LOT more young people coming in, it's getting more like the 70s. So that will change things. Often even if the statistics are dated recently, the underlying data is several years old. It takes time to collect collate and anaylyse it.

[Mikkel]

It is very interesting to read what you (with all due respect :yes:) oldtimers think of the matter. You all seem to have lost mates to motorcycling one way or the other. I wonder how many of these people you would have gotten to know if you never had gotten into motorcycling in the first place?

Anyway, I'm just a youngish fella who finally got his act together and got into something I've wanted to do, but put off for various reasons, since I was 18 years old.
Having been riding for almost 6 months now I have made several mistakes (only one painful) and, I hope, learned from them - only time will tell.

The number of Biker down/RIP threads I have seen here on KB in that short time is sobering. The memories of fallen mates permeates this website. It makes you think, a lot actually. Even if you didn't know the people, their legacy can still influence you. That is a good thing about KB in my humble opinion!

I chose to take up motorcycling for purely selfish reasons and have the good fortune to have a partner that accept and support my interests in that regard (motorcycles, not being selfish mind you). I have a family that are very well aware of the potential consequences, but trust my judgment enough to not worry too much about what I might get myself into.

I know that the loss would shatter these peoples lives should I die at a young age - no matter the reason. I don't hold any beliefs in afterlife or anything like it, when it's over it's over and that's the end of the story. Still, I actively choose to engage in an activity that is potentially, and more so than many others, fatal - knowing and accepting the inherent risks. It's my choice every time I get on the bike - I accept that responsibility and hope that I won't let anyone down handling that responsibility!

I am absolutely certain the ones that care for me would want it no other way!

[90s]

I don't have the sources ... One must be very careful about such figures though. firstly to check that they actually relate to NZ - data from other countries, with different licence rules, helmet laws etc may not be at all applicable. And careful that it is as up to date as possible. The demography of motorcycling is changing quite fast.

The data I posted on is current to 2006, New Zealand from the ministry of transport. This is very interesting, particularly the accident data 1980-2006.
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf

[Unit]

The data I posted on is current to 2006, New Zealand from the ministry of transport. This is very interesting, particularly the accident data 1980-2006.
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf

Wow, Im glad we arent back in the 80's, seems to have been a great improvement since then

[motobob]

Interesting Thread you started Brett :-) It was a shock to arrive and hear that Derek Hill and Phil Harrison had that fatal collision.

You have some pertinent insights. One thing as a biker is we forget of the impact on our families and friends when we make those serious mistakes. Having screwed up and made one of those mistakes I have put real pressure on the ones I love. This one of the hardest things I have to live with.

The funny thing is that when I look back in hindsight, I can see that I was destined to crash badly. The opportunities to change th outcome were presented to me, but were ignored because I did not realise what was going to happen. Hope that makes sense :-)

Biking is a high risk sport and attracts risk takers, even if we don't think its risky. Hence the heavy toll. You can reduce the risk by going and playing bridge or lawn bowls. However the oldies playing those games are dying or suffering from serious medical problems too.

Anyways time to go, only popped on to check how Skelstar was getting on.

[Grahameeboy]

Like any other addiction we make excuses for our motorcycling habit, the recent Pukekohe double tragedy was a great example. two people die at the event and the event rolled on like nowt has happened???...cries of "that's what the victims would have wanted"..."HTFU"....."that's racing"...and "riders have put a lot of time and money to be here this weekend" , only reinforce how twisted the motorcycle mind can become. Life has become so cheap to us that we make any excuse to continue on with our deadly pursuit.

Just like junkies!

Not sure I agree...racing is a dangerous sport so should it be stopped?...it is part of the risk held by the event...I mean war does not stop when people start dying...however, the fallen are still remembered...that is the important thing

I am sure that the 2 guys killed would not want to have spoiled the fun...

[Quasievil]

You have some pertinent insights. One thing as a biker is we forget of the impact on our families and friends when we make those serious mistakes. Having screwed up and made one of those mistakes I have put real pressure on the ones I love. This one of the hardest things I have to live with.



This was the point I was trying to make earlier (page three ?) anyhow yes exactly, its not just about the individual riding, youre either dead or injured, if Dead you have it easy, youre gone. The real impact is on those you leave to cope with the trauma of loosing their Dad their Husband their Son or Friend, thats where the damage is.
Riding in a dangerous manner is nothing but a SELFISH ACT nothing less.

I remember last year the pitts with you and Shaun, I was getttng ready to go out on the track and I really really struggled with it.............why? you where both mates and you where both in wheelchairs, it was like WTF this shit aint worth it, Im buying a adventure bike ! (not thats a super safe option) I could see clearly there was ZERO future in sportsbikes on the road. ZERO

[jrandom]

... this shit aint worth it, Im buying a adventure bike ! (not thats a super safe option) I could see clearly there was ZERO future in sportsbikes on the road. ZERO

Actually, this has a lot to do why why I'm riding a GSX1400 instead of a B-King.

Slower is faster - you tend to actually arrive.

[Quasievil]

personally ,I believe strongly the racing on Sunday should have been stopped, think of the trauma the event organisers , the marshalls, the other riders,the Ambo's the witnesses, the spectators where under.
For me why would it be necessersary to put those people back into "lets race mode" and deny them the chance to well GET OVER IT at least a little.
Its only a fucking race, who cares , People first racing LAST

[Dave_G]

The thing is you can wring your hands all you like about people who die as a result of riding a bike, either on the track or on the road. But the reason they were doing that in the first place is that they have an absolute passion for it, otherwise they (and me) wouldn't get on one. If you don't have that then don't do it, but if you do have that passion you will ride regardless of the statistics, and you will ride in the way that you enjoy, whether thats cruising at the speed limit or balls out on a sports bike. I haven't met too many who only ride a bike for the transport, its more than that for most, and if someone you know does die riding, you pause, you take stock, you remember them (always) but you move on, maybe wiser maybe not, everyones different and it would be a boring place if they weren't.

[Motu]

It is very interesting to read what you (with all due respect :yes:) oldtimers think of the matter. You all seem to have lost mates to motorcycling one way or the other.


I haven't read this thread,it doesn't interest me.....but I've been riding bikes a long,long time,and I've been to a few funerals along the way too - but I don't think I've ever been to a funeral of a friend who died on a motorcycle.The only close friend who died in a motorcycle crash,I didn't get to his funeral because of a transport hic up that left me no time to get there.Maybe I just have the wrong sort of friends....I have known a lot of people who died on bikes,but they weren't mates.Still,plenty of time to go yet.....at my stage in life funerals seem to crop up often enough.

[Radar]

I know that the loss would shatter these peoples lives should I die at a young age - no matter the reason. I don't hold any beliefs in afterlife or anything like it, when it's over it's over and that's the end of the story. Still, I actively choose to engage in an activity that is potentially, and more so than many others, fatal - knowing and accepting the inherent risks. It's my choice every time I get on the bike - I accept that responsibility and hope that I won't let anyone down handling that responsibility!

I am absolutely certain the ones that care for me would want it no other way!

Its not just about death from a bike accident, but life long debilitating injuries.

Getting snuffed out in an instant by slamming into a truck is one thing, but then I think of my friend here in Masterton, who is in a wheel chair for life with no bladder control and a gimp arm. She spent ONE YEAR in hospital and suffered great emotional pain as well as the physical.

Mikkel, I am not criticizing your post; I do in fact understand what you say and can see where you are coming from. This probably rings true for many of us: [Mikkel says] "I chose to take up motorcycling for purely selfish reasons and have the good fortune to have a partner that accept and support my interests in that regard." I thought about this thread yesterday coming down from Woodville, fighting to ride in what must have been 100 kph cross winds, first thinking F**k this is crazy! Why am I doing this shiite?" but then laughing at seeing my mate on his big bike getting tossed around also, then laughing at what we were doing, thinking "I love this, crazy as it is, and it sure beats sitting on my ass somewhere!"

Back to my paralyzed friend. That accident was avoidable. Rider error.

Yes I know, some accidents are unavoidable, but good rider skills and quick thinking can get us out of most trouble. There is another thread here on KB where some kids stretched videotape across the street and they flipped out when instead of a bus or car, a bikie rode into it. Things like that could decapitate, but the rider chose to slide his bike to lessen the injury.

We old guys were young once, and to be honest we would have to admit doing some stupid things on a bike way back then, that could have resulted in injury or death. The difference now is with the internet we are connected with a large and helpful community of bikers. For me, reading various views is very helpful.

Quasievil, thanks for creating this thread. Its all very sobering, as others have said.

[Katman]

I remember reading somewhere that, for all the bravado of soldiers at war, the single most common final word uttered by a dying soldier is "Mummy". Not "Mum" or "Mother" or "Ma" - but "Mummy".




Makes you think.

[McJim]

I remember reading somewhere that, for all the bravado of soldiers at war, the single most common final word uttered by a dying soldier is "Mummy". Not "Mum" or "Mother" - but "Mummy".


Innit amazing how all of those Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, French, Spanish and North African soldiers immediatley knew the english diminutive for mother. Even those whose languages don't even contain a diminutive for mother.

Sorry to do this but I suspect your source to be anecdotal at best.

But I know what you're trying to say.

[Katman]

But I know what you're trying to say.

So the German soldiers said "Mutti", the Italian soldiers said...............

Anecdotal maybe, but you know exactly what I'm trying to say.

[Mom]

I'd rather be having sex when I depart than sitting at work or mowing lawns.

Me too mate, me too!!


It is very interesting to read what you (with all due respect :yes:) oldtimers think of the matter. You all seem to have lost mates to motorcycling one way or the other. I wonder how many of these people you would have gotten to know if you never had gotten into motorcycling in the first place?

I wear old timer with a tiny bit of pride. I have been fortunate in only saying goodbye to one mate from a bike accident. It was the saddest thing, and something that I will never forget, it is 27 years this past Jan 20th he died, straightening out a corner in a rush for work, met a car swinging wide. He was 18 years old and the most lovely guy! I miss his potential talking about him tonight!

I have buried many more friends over the years, for many and varied reasons. I have also buried my step father, and my father within a month of each other a couple of years ago.
You can die, or sadly in this day and age, be killed in many ways, every day, any day.


You have some pertinent insights. One thing as a biker is we forget of the impact on our families and friends when we make those serious mistakes. Having screwed up and made one of those mistakes I have put real pressure on the ones I love. This one of the hardest things I have to live with.

No mate, I watched what you have been up to on TV the other day, you have nothing to hang your head about at all!


Slower is faster - you tend to actually arrive.

Slower is the new FAST!!!!!!!!! That is how I ride, and my slow is S L O W! I have a lot of living left in me yet! LOL

[Boob Johnson]

I actually believe sites like this have something to do with it.
Hey so why don't you FUCK OFF then if this site is so bad, you are a broken record of the worst kind, someone ban this moron once and for all :bash:

Apparently this site is the cause of an increase in motorcycle deaths according to Katman!!! LMFAO!!! Is this moron for real??? How can so many of you sit by & listen to his bullshit?

Mate if anything this site would do the exact opposite & if it didn't how the HELL would you know, nothing more than a complete & utter wild stab in the dark.





But I still feel that while inexcusable behaviour is exactly that, inexcusable, you will never weed it out of mankind.
Will someone beat Katman to death with that statement!



I doubt that any person who has attended a fatal accident has seen what could be described as a smile on the deceased's face.
Once again you miss the boat :rolleyes:

Shall we spell it out for you Katman? Or would you just like to cling to ANYTHING remotely in the ball park to your bandwagon :bash:


So the German soldiers said "Mutti", the Italian soldiers said...............

Anecdotal maybe, but you know exactly what I'm trying to say.
Yes & it's a fucking broken record mate. You say it on a near daily basis irrelevant of another "biker down" thread.


A "biker down" thread is to pay respect's to the dead & their family's & is actually a healthy reminder to take it easy out there, we don't need a fuckwit like you crapping on every two minutes about how idiot riders are giving other sensible riders a bad name. As said previously your rantings Katman actually have nothing to do with the topic but more about your own health/mortality.

[SixPackBack]

On a different vein I must say I FOR ME disagree with Sixpacback Regarding closing a meeting down if I was to die.
I know there is NO comparison but I was absolutely gutted when told that my accident in may caused the cancellation of the Vic Club meeting that day.
If I died I would hope that the meeting carried on.

So putting aside the obvious difference in opinion for a moment, are we saying that when your accident occurred they stopped the meeting [and with due respect], when two people are killed we carry on as normal.
I find that certifiably insane:gob:.....do the organisers make it up as they go along? are there no standards for when a meeting is stopped? what an appropriate response is to a given situation?

FFS I would have thought the organisers at Puke would have had 2 minutes silence, maybe a coupla slow laps of all the bikes, at the least an announcement out of respect for the fallen! It appears they cleaned up and carried on like nothing has happened?

[FROSTY]

So putting aside the obvious difference in opinion for a moment, are we saying that when your accident occurred they stopped the meeting [and with due respect], when two people are killed we carry on as normal.

not quite that simple dude -the pukie accident was basicly a one off freak
--A terrible freak but none the less a freak.
My accident was number 27 --Yes 27 within a 3 hour period.
I think me laying out cold for a few minutes was the final straw.
I must add that most of the accidents were strictly due to track conditions.

[Number One]

have had 2 minutes silence, maybe a coupla slow laps of all the bikes, at the least an announcement out of respect for the fallen! It appears they cleaned up and carried on like nothing has happened?

I'm surprised to hear that nothing like this did happen....

[terbang]

Im buying a adventure bike ! (not thats a super safe option) I could see clearly there was ZERO future in sportsbikes on the road. ZERO

Yup I did that, went from a Hayabusa to what I'm riding now. Loved that Busa to bits but I was gonna kill myself. The Cagiva has opened up many more opportunities and interests and it has certainly slowed me down to my own level of competence and confidence. Thats part of the answer, recognizing it and making a change.

[Qkkid]

Its been 2yrs 2 months since me bin i am glad i survived it. It could of been a different scenario 6 inches to the right. Since then i have done a further 35,000 kms on my 1000cc bike. I dont have the scares or frights any more. I still ride quick at times but only on roads i know well. I also think more about my wife and family when i get on my bike. Dawn used to say i had nothing between my ears when i rode. I used to tell her dont be silly,:( she was right:weep: Its not nice coming around the corner finding out that its your partner in the ditch hurt. For that i was a thoughtless prick. Thats why we are taking up Adventure riding time to smell the roses. We will still ride our sportsbikes but the desire has changed.
Nice to reflect and think Quasi

[Mikkel]

Its not just about death from a bike accident, but life long debilitating injuries.

Getting snuffed out in an instant by slamming into a truck is one thing, but then I think of my friend here in Masterton, who is in a wheel chair for life with no bladder control and a gimp arm. She spent ONE YEAR in hospital and suffered great emotional pain as well as the physical.

I do realise that a severely debilitating accident would probably be worse for both me and anyone who cares for me. You don't know me, but I think anyone who does would agree that me being tied to a wheelchair would be a bad bad bad idea, unless my mind disappeared together with my mobility.

I still accept it. Unless you sit down and wrap yourself in cotton wool you're eligible to get hurt, maimed or killed... The difference with a motorcycle is that it's sometimes not a freak accident but poor judgement on behalf of the rider that causes shit to happen. I find that strangely comforting in a way.
If you get hurt badly walking on the sidewalk it's most likely because someone else has made the decision for you...

I'd rather regret doing something today than regret not doing it tomorrow. And today I want to go motorcycling!


I wear old timer with a tiny bit of pride.

And so should you! There's that saying about bold and old riders...
I hope in time I will be able to consider myself an oldtimer with kids that ride... And I hope I won't be an angry old man at that time! If I stopped doing what I like because of the potential risks I'm sure I grow angry over time.

[SixPackBack]

not quite that simple dude -the pukie accident was basicly a one off freak
--A terrible freak but none the less a freak.
My accident was number 27 --Yes 27 within a 3 hour period.
I think me laying out cold for a few minutes was the final straw.
I must add that most of the accidents were strictly due to track conditions.

I understand. So unless a serious OSH hazard presents itself racing goes on regardless?
I'm sorry FROSTY but what happened at Puke at the weekend would have to be one of the most disgraceful shows of arrogance and callousness ever witnessed. People died and that needed to be recognised, reflected upon. Not scrape the poor buggers off the track and keep racing with little regard for family, freinds, spectators and track officials.

Human life is infinitely more important than a second rate bike meet in some dusty corner of the world.

[Joni]

Human life is infinitely more important than a second rate bike meet in some dusty corner of the world.I agree.... not about the second rate part, but the value of life.

However, that seems to be the way its done... there was a tragic death last year at Puke too, where a young sidecar swinger died.

The racing was not called off, even though there was a terrible feeling among all the riders.

[Jimmy B]

Hey so why don't you FUCK OFF




Will someone beat Katman to death with that statement!



Once again you miss the boat :rolleyes:

Shall we spell it out for you Katman? Or would you just like to cling to ANYTHING remotely in the ball park to your bandwagon :bash:


Yes & it's a fucking broken record mate. You say it on a near daily basis irrelevant of another "biker down" thread.


.


Hey BJ this thread is open to anyone to express their thoughts on Qausi’s topic, including Katman.

At the risk of appearing hypocritical, why don’t you back off and focus your comments on adding to the topic rather than singling out another member who has as much right to express their ideas as anyone else.

If we all just focus on the topic rather than one upping someone else then this place will be much better for it. I am sure that you have plenty of experiences to share and I for one want to hear about them.

This post need no reply.

[90s]

Hey BJ this thread is open to anyone to express their thoughts on Qausi’s topic, including Katman.

At the risk of appearing hypocritical, why don’t you back off and focus your comments on adding to the topic rather than singling out another member who has as much right to express their ideas as anyone else.

If we all just focus on the topic rather than one upping someone else then this place will be much better for it. I am sure that you have plenty of experiences to share and I for one want to hear about them.

This post need no reply.

I agree with Jimmy B. If you examine the data I posted earlier there is a credible thesis behind Katman's (somewhat wearying at times but well intentioned) diatribe:
KB = meeting of middle-aged bikers on big bikes egging each other on on group rides = high accident rate, and more likely to be fatalities.
The data supports all of the above.

This does not mean it is true. But it does mean, like Frosty, we should stop and think a bit.
Because in many other ways, ie. by drawing attention to a possible problem likes this, this site reiforces much positive.

[Boob Johnson]

Hey BJ this thread is open to anyone to express their thoughts on Qausi’s topic, including Katman.

At the risk of appearing hypocritical, why don’t you back off and focus your comments on adding to the topic rather than singling out another member who has as much right to express their ideas as anyone else.

If we all just focus on the topic rather than one upping someone else then this place will be much better for it. I am sure that you have plenty of experiences to share and I for one want to hear about them.

This post need no reply.
Is that some kind of joke? So you actually agree that KB'er incites us to ride like maniacs, encourages us to ride irresponsibly? Sorry mate but that is complete & UTTER rubbish. Yes he is entitled to an opinion like anyone else but when it's the same BS over and over and over again it gets a little old. I dare you to go over Katman's post's, all of them (it won't take long until you see the pathetic pattern) & then you might just get the picture, including the massive amount of red rep he has received from the community including being dressed down by many other members + multiple infractions from the mods.

[Ixion]

The deep irony of this is that Mr Johnson is precisely the sort of rider that Mr Katman is (futilely) trying to protect from the consequences of their own folly. The rider who totalled his 250 , and himself (it was , of course, the 'other persons fault', since he was not breaking the speed limit and therefore should have been perfectly safe): and then , in a wonderful example of squidly logic, decided that the cure for his incompetence was to buy a 900!

The reaction shows why Mr Katman is attempting the impossible. Only pain or death will desquid a squid. None so blind as they who will not see.

The most that can be hoped for is that Mr Johnson and his like will have a crash that, whilst it does not seriously injure, frightens them enough that they realise how ghey they always thought motorcycles were and go back to the phish-phish cages (I do not wish a crash on anyone, but some riders one just knows that a succession of crashes is inevitable) . And that , perhaps, some of the more sensible novices will get Mr Katman's message. And may, perhaps, still be out there riding 50 years form now.

[WelshWizard]

Im interested in the thoughts of my fellow Bikers about this subject.
Ive been a biker for, hell ,EVER being an old bugger I have been around for a while and it seems to me that the last few years have been quite tragic there have been many close friends and fellow bikers being seriously hurt and or killed.
When I first joined KB about 5 years ago it seems to me (bad memory syndrome) that we never really had as much serious carnage certainly not like what we do now,and these days its on a reasonable regular basis.
For me In the last ,.....say 2 years I have lost a fair number of mates from motorbike crashes, why and hows arent what this thread is about,
this thread is saying the more you get into the Motorcycling world via racing forums etc the more mates you will loose as a result of crashes, it seems obvious to me know that this is the price I pay for knowing so many bikers, the trouble is Im not sure how comfortable I am paying this price anymore.
I can name these guys whom I have known that have been hurt or who have died recently
Not in Order

Flyin (died)
OldFart (died)
Loosebruce (died)
Shaun Harris (seriously injured)
DSS3 (Died)
Stonechucker (seriusly injured)
MotoBob (seriously injured)
UncleB (died)
Derek hill (died)
inlinefour (seriously injured)
Oarbreaker (died)
Skelstar (seriously injured)
Razya (died)

(anyone not there I forgot, or didnt actually know them)

8 Dead
5 badly Injured

Thats just guys I know, some very closely and some as online mates. But all I have met.

So whats this all about, well its a wake up call, its a hey guys be careful............NO NO seriously........ Be careful !!
This is getting mental and deeply worrying, for me at least, I mean who of you is next ? based on the above it will only be a few weeks before one of you dies, horrible thing to say isnt it? but im afraid its reality.

In light of the last few days with the recent deaths at Pukekohe I guess its made the heart feel even heavier and has got me thinking whats around the corner for me, who is it next, is it me? when do I get another phone call or read a post about another incident, kinda depressing aint it?

thats about it, little Quasi bleet over

in a Somber mood, but not depressed (for the record)

Back in the 50's and 60's it wa no safer, of the guys and gal that I rode with about 36 hardcore and maybe 20 parttime riders of the 36 hard core only about 9 of us are still standing,
get rid of the easy ones firts
Lost.
2 heart attacks (fatal)
1 Stroke ( Fatal 3 months to pass)
3 Killed on the Prom in Cheltenham (not riding a bike)
2 Car Crashes ( fatal)
1 Horse rideing accident ( Broken Neck fatal)
2 Broken backs ( not fatal but life in a chair sucks , one who knew he was going to be a quad was begging his mates to get a wrench and finish him off before the meat wagon arrived, they did,nt but I know some wish it had been done as he has never spoken to the ones who were with him at the time since)
15 Motorcycle crashes (Fatal)
Strangly apart from the heart attacks , stroke, the street fight on the Prom and horse rideing accident they all died before the mid 1970's

and its was the mid sixties before they died, once motorways and other restrictive laws like a speed limit, helmet law were imposed, also the intro of the Austin Mini helped as instead of starting on a motorcycle it was now possible to start with a small car and drivers never got the extra edge of being aware of motorcycles on the road, hence more often than not they come up with the Classic "But I did'nt see him" after a crash

[90s]

I agree with Jimmy B. If you examine the data I posted earlier there is a credible thesis behind Katman's (somewhat wearying at times but well intentioned) diatribe:
KB = meeting of middle-aged bikers on big bikes egging each other on on group rides = high accident rate, and more likely to be fatalities.
The data supports all of the above.

This does not mean it is true. But it does mean, like Frosty, we should stop and think a bit.
Because in many other ways, ie. by drawing attention to a possible problem likes this, this site reiforces much positive.

So this is what a rep repped post looks like.

I think I am entitled to this position. I would not say that elements of the social networking site KB do not promote some unsafe riding situations, within the circumstances that I described. Then again, I suppose you can prove anything with facts.

[Jimmy B]

Is that some kind of joke? So you actually agree that KB'er incites us to ride like maniacs, encourages us to ride irresponsibly? Sorry mate but that is complete & UTTER rubbish.

BJ

KB could be, at times, a vehicle to this end. Dont believe me bro, search CoroGP, read some of the posts and know that if you sign up to ride with some of these dudes then thats the pace. It wont be said, but when you're out there, thats exactly how it will feel. Plenty have walked back or worse from rides like these.

Anyway the real point of my post was...

[Quasievil]

kB Does however promote group rides and group rides by default are dangerous, throw in a group ride around say the coromandel and it will involve a crash or 2, or in one case I witnessed 5, on one bloody ride!

Quasi's recepie How to make a crash

1/ Add a internet website
2/ Add One group ride
3/ Leave to boil for a few days
4/ Add riders of various capabilites and experince
5/ for extra spice add some young impressionable young newbies
6/ Let the ride commence and wait
7/ you will have a crash within a hour or so
8/ Clean up the mess, post the reports on the internet site

9/ Repeat each week.

[Boob Johnson]

The deep irony of this is that Mr Johnson is precisely the sort of rider that Mr Katman is (futilely) trying to protect from the consequences of their own folly. The rider who totalled his 250 , and himself (it was , of course, the 'other persons fault', since he was not breaking the speed limit and therefore should have been perfectly safe): and then , in a wonderful example of squidly logic, decided that the cure for his incompetence was to buy a 900!

The reaction shows why Mr Katman is attempting the impossible. Only pain or death will desquid a squid. None so blind as they who will not see.

The most that can be hoped for is that Mr Johnson and his like will have a crash that, whilst it does not seriously injure, frightens them enough that they realise how ghey they always thought motorcycles were and go back to the phish-phish cages (I do not wish a crash on anyone, but some riders one just knows that a succession of crashes is inevitable) . And that , perhaps, some of the more sensible novices will get Mr Katman's message. And may, perhaps, still be out there riding 50 years form now.
You sir are an A class moron, get off your high horse, who the hell do you think you are? You don't know me from a bar of soap, you don't know how I ride, but you sure are the type of arrogant fuckwit that presumes to know :rolleyes:


My first accident: Katman said the same thing "oh but there MUST have been something you could of done to avoid it" lol. Yep he was right too, I could of taken the car. When your riding at WELL below the posted speed limit with your headlight on, correct lane position & some teenager pulls out with you literally meters away............yes well I guess a veteran knob end like you would of called upon ol Scotty to beam you up aye :innocent:


Mate pull your head in, you ruffle a lot of feathers here with your high n mighty arrogant attitude, give it a rest aye, just makes you look like a bitter cynical old man, especially when you make massive assumptions on someone you know nots riding habits.



BJ

KB could be, at times, a vehicle to this end.
Well if Katman is soooooo worried about how a certain few ride then best he direct it at them instead of his wild generalisations. How bout PM'ing those riders with his thoughts? No that wouldn't work because that's not Katman's true intention's, he wants a stage, a stage to launch his riding school :msn-wink:

[Str8 Jacket]

kB Does however promote group rides and group rides by default are dangerous, throw in a group ride around say the coromandel and it will involve a crash or 2, or in one case I witnessed 5, on one bloody ride!

Quasi's recepie How to make a crash

1/ Add a internet website
2/ Add One group ride
3/ Leave to boil for a few days
4/ Add riders of various capabilites and experince
5/ for extra spice add some young impressionable young newbies
6/ Let the ride commence and wait
7/ you will have a crash within a hour or so
8/ Clean up the mess, post the reports on the internet site

9/ Repeat each week.

Auckland maybe, but I dont hear of this happening so reguarly from other places that have regular rides.

[Maha]

Auckland maybe, but I dont hear of this happening so reguarly from other places that have regular rides.

Like i said ealier, i have organised 10 group rides over the last two years with up to 30 bikes on some, and not one accident/incident, nothing, one speeding ticket on the last ride, fucken big deal! Been on one Coro Loop ride and there were two offs that i saw on that ride. I know of some who wont touch a Coro Loop Group Ride for that very reason.

[Str8 Jacket]

Like i said ealier, i have organised 10 group rides over the last two years with up to 30 bikes on some, and not one accident/incident, nothing, one speeding ticket on the last ride, fucken big deal! Been on one Coro Loop ride and there were two offs that i saw on that ride. I know of some who wont touch a Coro Loop Group Ride for that very reason.

Yep, for sure. What I was meaning is that you can not lump everyone into the same category! :sunny:

Just look at how all the responses are differing in their opinions on this thread. Everything means something different to an indivual. Who is anyone to judge what someone feels....

[MSTRS]

To those talking about good, safe rides....we in the Hawkes Bay have enjoyed rides week in, week out, all over 'B' roads and we've had one crash that had nothing to do with pace or squid behaviour. A pine cone on the ride line that wasn't noticed until too late.

[Jimmy B]

Quasi's recepie How to make a crash



Fore shore.

Like the following stats from one evening on a popular KB group ride up this way where up to 60 riders of all abilities will front:

36 Riders
3 Bins
5 Tickets - 1 Walking

While this is a "busy night" it's not exactly a blip in the stats. Quite staggering that ~ 1 in 4 failed to ride successfully less than 200k.

For this reason I tend to stick in small groups with Guys I know. I am not alone in this way of thinking either.

n. pl. squids or squid
Var. of Skwid

1. (n) Any of various road going vertibrates, having a usually brightly coloured and elongated body, 2 arms, a sprotsbike and an obvious lack of talent. 2. pl. Usually young Squid(s) will travel erratically in groups replicating the motion of their aquatic cousins i.e. Fast in a straight line and slow to turn. 3. behav. Squids are not to be underestimated in their capacity for stupidity, ability to deny the blindingly obvious and/or their feisty demeanour. Squids should be approached with a great deal of caution.

[Quasievil]

To those talking about good, safe rides....we in the Hawkes Bay have enjoyed rides week in, week out, all over 'B' roads and we've had one crash that had nothing to do with pace or squid behaviour. A pine cone on the ride line that wasn't noticed until too late.

Thats credit to you I suspect and your sensible attitude, along with some of the other KB crew there, there is no fucking way you would allow any shit on one of your rides, and you should be commended for that to John:Punk:

[MSTRS]

Thats credit to you I suspect and your sensible attitude, along with some of the other KB crew there, there is no fucking way you would allow any shit on one of your rides, and you should be commended for that to John:Punk:

Nice of you to say so :woohoo: , but...actually, none of us tolerate dickhead behaviour and most of us are in the 'target' group of 35-50, so how about that?

[fireball]

i have the impression most of the coro rides that have bins related to speed would be due to the noobs trying to keep up with the other riders thus it is down to bad leadership and bad choices by the rider themselves.

kb is only at best a catalyst for this... not a reason

[FROSTY]

Actually its interesting about the auckland rides.
I'd given up on the ATNR simply because I was sick of going home early to get my van.
But last three rides not a hint of problems -everyone riding pretty well

[ManDownUnder]

...i have organised 10 group rides over the last two years with up to 30 bikes on some, and not one accident/incident, nothing, one speeding ticket on the last ride, fucken big deal!

Yup - picky and choosy about where I go (or more speecifically who I ride with) for that reason.

If I am forever worried about squids taking me out, or taking themselves out then there's no fun for me. If I'm riding in a group where I WANT to help - the no problem, that's part of the fun for me, and playing sweep on the ANTR used to be great for exactly that reason

(Sweep is falling to the back of the pack and slowly weedling your way back up and through making sure the various slowbies and newbies are ok - not sure if it's a generic term or not, but I got it from haymaking days... picking up the stragglers).

Back to topic, I guess if the ride iis wnat I want it to be then I'll have fun - if not I'll have less fun, and people hurting themselves tends to ruin a night for me. Call me Mr Fussy but there ya have it.

[Jimmy B]

kb is only at best a catalyst for this... not a reason

Ok lets have a look at this:

Fast ride for Coro on XX, if you cant keep up then don't come....

10 litre bikes and a handful of 600's

Bring it on.

2 or 3 noobs in their 20's or 30's, big fast bikes want to mix it up with these guys, over the preceeding days they are thinking hey I'm quick I can do this easy and register.

Ride happens, fast guys shoot through....whos following right on the edge of their ability so, in their mind, they dont look like a dick?

Catalyst and reason are pretty closely aligned from where I sit

[90s]

So Frosty, still thinking of calling the racing a day but had your faith in biking in general restored?

[Boob Johnson]

To those talking about good, safe rides....we in the Hawkes Bay have enjoyed rides week in, week out, all over 'B' roads and we've had one crash that had nothing to do with pace or squid behaviour. A pine cone on the ride line that wasn't noticed until too late.
Same with us mate, been riding with a few different crews & without incident for over a year. Two weeks ago was the first ive come across, two of our crew came off on a "B" road after hitting un-sign posted gravel on a blind corner, wasn't goin fast, no squid behaviour, just a lil unlucky. I was behind them but had buttoned off because I wasn't comfortable with the level of sun strike so was well at the back of the pack otherwise I may have followed them into the bank :doctor:

[madandy]

Bikers in NZ have been known as 'Temporary New Zealanders' for decades, sadly.
Like mass media in general, KB and the great WWW enables so many of us to come to know, or become associates of many and access news of peoples' untimely demise so much more easily than before.

I've said it before so I'll say it agaon but simpler.
Listen to the old riders! They might know something if they been enjoying bikes for 30+ years. If ya been riding a short time - STFU & listen to 'em.

[=cJ=]

Looking at the list of fallen, it's kinda unnerving aye.

Still, a good thing to keep in the back of my head to keep the overconfidence at bay...

[Ixion]

Have you thought about which hymns you would prefer ?

[Edbear]

Same with us mate, been riding with a few different crews & without incident for over a year. Two weeks ago was the first ive come across, two of our crew came off on a "B" road after hitting un-sign posted gravel on a blind corner, wasn't goin fast, no squid behaviour, just a lil unlucky. I was behind them but had buttoned off because I wasn't comfortable with the level of sun strike so was well at the back of the pack otherwise I may have followed them into the bank :doctor:


Bikers in NZ have been known as 'Temporary New Zealanders' for decades, sadly.
Like mass media in general, KB and the great WWW enables so many of us to come to know, or become associates of many and access news of peoples' untimely demise so much more easily than before.

I've said it before so I'll say it agaon but simpler.
Listen to the old riders! They might know something if they been enjoying bikes for 30+ years. If ya been riding a short time - STFU & listen to 'em.

These two quotes are significant! BJ buttoned off because visibility was compromised and avoided a bin, the others didn't and fell off! Think about it! So even though they weren't going fast, and there was "no squid behaviour", were they riding according to the conditions and could they also have avoided the accident had they been more concerned with safety? Was this an "accident" or rider error?

[Boob Johnson]

These two quotes are significant! BJ buttoned off because visibility was compromised and avoided a bin, the others didn't and fell off! Think about it! So even though they weren't going fast, and there was "no squid behaviour", were they riding according to the conditions and could they also have avoided the accident had they been more concerned with safety? Was this an "accident" or rider error?
Yeah rider error of course has its place here but not everything is staunchly black n white. Was kinda unlucky as well as there was gravel on the apex of the corner that dropped away (hidden). I would imagine cars and or trucks had been cutting the corner & over time flicked up a lot of material. It can be a fine line between riding for safety & enjoyment sometimes.

[Edbear]

... It can be a fine line between riding for safety & enjoyment sometimes.

Agreed! I've had a few "moments" and I guess it's all about being human after all. Not criticising the guys who suffered the accidents as I don't know them or the circumstances apart from your post.

One could ride so "safely" as to take all the fun out of it and we all accept the risks of riding, (and driving), on the open road. I assume they were wearing appropriate gear, though and thereby avoided more serious injury.

[Boob Johnson]

Agreed! I've had a few "moments" and I guess it's all about being human after all. Not criticising the guys who suffered the accidents as I don't know them or the circumstances apart from your post.

One could ride so "safely" as to take all the fun out of it and we all accept the risks of riding, (and driving), on the open road. I assume they were wearing appropriate gear, though and thereby avoided more serious injury.
Yep both had full gear on which most likely minimised injuries. Yeah totally agreed on being over safety conscious, perfect safety is an oxymoron. But we can certainly strive towards it in a balanced fashion. Personally I ride for the pure enjoyment of doing so, not a commuter (anymore) so I like to do just that, enjoy myself & sometimes that means getting to close to that invisible safety net :pinch:

[skidMark]

**origional start of thread post**


Yes Quasi it is hard logging on wondering if theres going to be a thread, or that phone call.

We accept the risk everytime we jump onto that seat of freedom.

We all know the risks, i know bikes will probably be the death of me, but i would rather ride and die. Than to have never known the freedom you gain from riding and lived longer.

Rayza/Backfires best mate (a good friend of mine also), rang me for a catch up, hey man how are you etc. Completely unknowing to his best friends passing in the very early hours of the same morning.

Telling him that his friend had died, was by far the hardest words i have ever had to say.

I never want to have to do that again, but with the amount of bikers i know, i know one day i shall have to.

Some people will not listen though. Some people will buy bikes they are not ready for, and you just have to prepare yourself as best you can for the time you hear they have passed.

I knew 0arbreaka wasnt going to survive on that gsxr600, i said before he bought it, do not jump to a 600 yet mate you will be dead within 6 months if you do

"nah, don't worry mate, i'll be sweet".

4 months later he was dead.

I knew it was coming, still hurt like hell, and i ask my self to this day is there more i could have done?

The simple answer is no.

I had to respect it was what he wanted, and i had no right to tell him what to do.

It is like my parents, me laying in hospital me mother almost in tears looking at me, looked me right in the eye and said

"No more motorbikes mark"

What was i to say?

"I can't give them up, they are what i live for"

To see the look i got back in your mothers eyes, it was heart wrenching. Most weekends when i would head out on the open road i would give her a hug tell her i love her and so on.

That wasn't the end of it, how did i know she worried?

Because she would almost everytime be standing in the upstairs window, and watch me ride away. She knows everytime i head off she may never see me alive again. I cannot promise her i will come home, because truth is you never know.

Make the most of your friends and family when you are around is how i see it.

My mother worries. She knows how i ride, but she knows its what makes me feel truely alive.

Living away from home now i think she worries a bit less because she doesn't always have to see me head off down the road.

This is life, you get one shot and thats it, make the most of it.

Skid.

[WelshWizard]

Yes Quasi it is hard logging on wondering if theres going to be a thread, or that phone call.

We accept the risk everytime we jump onto that seat of freedom.

We all know the risks, i know bikes will probably be the death of me, but i would rather ride and die. Than to have never known the freedom you gain from riding and lived longer.

Rayza/Backfires best mate (a good friend of mine also), rang me for a catch up, hey man how are you etc. Completely unknowing to his best friends passing in the very early hours of the same morning.

Telling him that his friend had died, was by far the hardest words i have ever had to say.

I never want to have to do that again, but with the amount of bikers i know, i know one day i shall have to.

Some people will not listen though. Some people will buy bikes they are not ready for, and you just have to prepare yourself as best you can for the time you hear they have passed.

I knew 0arbreaka wasnt going to survive on that gsxr600, i said before he bought it, do not jump to a 600 yet mate you will be dead within 6 months if you do

"nah, don't worry mate, i'll be sweet".

4 months later he was dead.

I knew it was coming, still hurt like hell, and i ask my self to this day is there more i could have done?

The simple answer is no.

I had to respect it was what he wanted, and i had no right to tell him what to do.

It is like my parents, me laying in hospital me mother almost in tears looking at me, looked me right in the eye and said

"No more motorbikes mark"

What was i to say?

"I can't give them up, they are what i live for"

To see the look i got back in your mothers eyes, it was heart wrenching. Most weekends when i would head out on the open road i would give her a hug tell her i love her and so on.

That wasn't the end of it, how did i know she worried?

Because she would almost everytime be standing in the upstairs window, and watch me ride away. She knows everytime i head off she may never see me alive again. I cannot promise her i will come home, because truth is you never know.

Make the most of your friends and family when you are around is how i see it.

My mother worries. She knows how i ride, but she knows its what makes me feel truely alive.

Living away from home now i think she worries a bit less because she doesn't always have to see me head off down the road.

This is life, you get one shot and thats it, make the most of it.

Skid.

Skid we all know the risk Dan ( Backfire/ Rayza) came from a line of riders His Gran my Ma rode a cotton in the 20's and his Granddad rode a Rudge, His mothers father rode a Norton, His mum has been rideing since her first bike in the 70's And I have been rideing since the 50's mainly BSA, Norton, RE's and trumpies, but over the years Also Yamaha, Honda, Suzuli and now Kawasaki, I have walked away from many downs and asked myself latter how the hell I did so, never a broken bone till 2 years ago.

The main thing is you ride for what ever reason takes you, in the earlier years it was because all my mates had motorcycles, we could not afford a car on 19/6 a week pay back then , both my Ma and Da never wanted me to ride, It was my Uncle that told me shortly after he lost his son in a Motorcycle accident, its not the bike that kills you its the way you ride and fall, always asume the other guy is going to do something that will hit you, position your bike so you can be seen, and any car at a junction unless you can eyeball him in the face assume hes going to pull out, well most of my life it has worked, I have slowed down a lot as it hurts more at my age when I step off the bike to get clear of it when I have lost it, the fat layers don't act as a cushion when you get older, so always ride with the attitude that some AH is out to get you and be prepared, some things you can never be prepared for like a front whell blow out even at 70 mph is bad enough but at 100mph plus you are going for a slide, so just make sure you have the padding and the leather to protect yourself, learn to role go to a Judo class get some training they show you how to land when thrown, you be amazed how it helps when stepping off a bike at 115mph, never even got a scratch that time, but now adays bit to old for the high speed stuff any more so give me some twisties to sling the bike around on, or even a bit of trials work ( classic that is, not up to this modern stuff rideing over cars ect.)

Even when you get to old age life is to short, so make every second count, because those lost second can never be regained.

[Genestho]

Sorry I didnt know the people this thread is attributed to, I heard of the accident at Puke, I cant bring myself to post in these threads.

And I hope my comment is not out of place or a thread killer.


The statisical cost of a life $3.8 mill per fatality. Yes there is a price to our life.

The stasitical cost of 4 lives 16 mill (ish) plus one serious (around 500 g's) and two minor (cant remember)

The true cost of lives - seven children loose a family member.

Three little dudes witnessing some extremely graphic stuff.

Their innocense lost, reality kicked in for them all too soon.

How many people lost a friend and family member? The ripple effect is huge.

My son is struggling to believe there is bad people out there. He thinks Gordon Armstrong was a "good boy" Hes frightened if hes not a good boy, then he'll do bad things - the utmost being killing 4 people. Christ.

The day Leon and Si and Toni were killed, Leon was getting back on the "horse" so to speak, 6 weeks earlier on the way to Paeroa being u turned in front of by a car, the 4th bike in a pack of 8 bikes.

We made it and we spoke of everything that was important to us.
I tried a gentle suggestion of shelving the bike for a while - the week prior to his death (yea right!) He loved it. Loved everything about riding.

He road from Palmerston North to the Coromandell many times a year having owned his bike for 10 years , and enjoyed the coroloop, and most back roads NZ had to offer. It was his passion like so many here. Strangely enough - they were killed on a main road.

As cheesey an cliched as it sounds, they were killed doing something they loved.

Lately we've talking about if only there was one extra red light, or a longer yarn when they fuelled up, they'd have made it home. When Im stuck in line somewhere I no longer stress, it really isn't important anymore.

Simple fact is - shit happens, think of all that you leave behind if your hooning.

Never stop loving what you do.
Find whats important whatever it is before you loose someone you love, or they loose you.

And rock it.

Our days are sure to come, no matter what you do.

[Unit]

Well, my 15 yo boy is about to get his first bike, how do I feel about that? Being a rider (and driving for a living), scares the shit out of me. He has never driven (but has done a lot of trail bike riding so knows bikes at some level), so he has no road or traffic sense at all. Its a strange feeling. And the reason for him getting onto a road bike is purely due to his father (whom he lives with and yes there is a slightly bitter tone here) cant be bothered picking him up from soccer, work anymore, he is a long term rider to.
Jay has been here for the school holidays, and Chris and I have taken the opportunity to try to impress on him how desperately important it is to look at all cars around you with the attitude, they are out to kill you, and pointing out all the road hazards, and to wear as much protective clothing as possible, but to not rely on that as a total comfort zone.
People will continue to ride, everyday, and we all love it (and love to hate it when our dear ones get hurt).
Im totally focused on doing everything within my power to help my son have many happy motorcycling years, just as I have.

[WelshWizard]

Well, my 15 yo boy is about to get his first bike, how do I feel about that? Being a rider (and driving for a living), scares the shit out of me. He has never driven (but has done a lot of trail bike riding so knows bikes at some level), so he has no road or traffic sense at all. Its a strange feeling. And the reason for him getting onto a road bike is purely due to his father (whom he lives with and yes there is a slightly bitter tone here) cant be bothered picking him up from soccer, work anymore, he is a long term rider to.
Jay has been here for the school holidays, and Chris and I have taken the opportunity to try to impress on him how desperately important it is to look at all cars around you with the attitude, they are out to kill you, and pointing out all the road hazards, and to wear as much protective clothing as possible, but to not rely on that as a total comfort zone.
People will continue to ride, everyday, and we all love it (and love to hate it when our dear ones get hurt).
Im totally focused on doing everything within my power to help my son have many happy motorcycling years, just as I have.

Not much you can do bar ban him from rideing, or just give him the best of your knowledge, he will decide to either listen and learn or learn through time, remember you can't keep them in coton wool,
Lost my boy to bikes and now my daughter is learning to ride, all I can do is try and give advice, but its up to her to listen or not.

[Unit]

Not much you can do bar ban him from rideing, or just give him the best of your knowledge, he will decide to either listen and learn or learn through time, remember you can't keep them in coton wool,
Lost my boy to bikes and now my daughter is learning to ride, all I can do is try and give advice, but its up to her to listen or not.
Sorry to hear about your boy, cant imagine.... as far as banning, as my son doesnt live with me its not really up to me. I just hope his father realises the position he is putting us all in by not being bothered to spend another 18months running our boy around, or, waiting six months while he gets through his car learners period before he can drive on his own.
Fortunately my son is a bit of a delicate lad, and not pron to being testosterone driven like most boys, so I expect he may be a little more sensible than most 15yo's.
How's ya girl going with her riding? Do you get out with her much? Im actually really looking forward to following my boy and seeing him ride

[Radar]

Well, my 15 yo boy is about to get his first bike, how do I feel about that? Being a rider (and driving for a living), scares the shit out of me.

Sit with your son in front of the PC and view the website shown in my signature. It will take quite a while to view all of the photos and videos but make it a requirement before he gets on his bike. Some of the things you will see on that site will scare you but keep saying that nearly all accidents can be avoided with good rider skills. If your son finishes viewing the site with a solid sense of confidence, and knows that you trust him in spite of all the dangers, his maturity level will ratchet up a few notches and he will be a safer rider.

[Mikkel]

Sit with your son in front of the PC and view the website shown in my signature. It will take quite a while to view all of the photos and videos but make it a requirement before he gets on his bike. Some of the things you will see on that site will scare you but keep saying that nearly all accidents can be avoided with good rider skills. If your son finishes viewing the site with a solid sense of confidence, and knows that you trust him in spite of all the dangers, his maturity level will ratchet up a few notches and he will be a safer rider.

Gets a bit graphic at the end... Unless you have a strong stomach I think reviewing the contents before sitting down with your son might be in order. :yes:

[Reckless]

Well, my 15 yo boy is about to get his first bike, how do I feel about that? Being a rider (and driving for a living), scares the shit out of me.

yep me to!! I have an 18 year old about to get his first vehicle soon. And I've said NO to a bike!! He could tell me to get stuffed but likely he's a good lad and has understood my reasoning about getting some road experience etc in a car first. I'm probably only putting off the inevitable but if I can do that for a year or so till, he gets some experience, that first (young fella over doing it) crash we all tend to have and a years more maturity (not that he's immature at all) I'll have done what I can. Some of you may not approve of my approach but he's exactly like me and I know what I was like at his age and I was simply lucky!!!

[WelshWizard]

How's ya girl going with her riding? Do you get out with her much? Im actually really looking forward to following my boy and seeing him ride


She has a GN250 and a Hiyo Rally so I don't have to worry to much about speed, neither are that fast round the block, been out for a few rides with her while she was on the GN, wife rides lead on her ER6 and I ride block behind her, she finds gear change and riding something she needs to come to terms withy that's why she got the Hiyo Rally, so it will help her confidence, she has a reasonable chance of making a good rider, and her Boyfriend also rides a Scooter and a Busa, he seem experienced enough to teach learners the finer points of riding so she has all the bases covered.:2thumbsup