Broadband - Should the government simply buy a satellite?

[Winston001]

Should the NZ government buy Xtra and a satellite (or sufficent bandwidth) and provide fast broadband to the whole nation?

I'm thinking that the cost would be subsidised by the taxpayer, not at current satellite rates. Cheapish for all.

What do you think?

[jrandom]

It would only be cool if it had a death ray.

[Mikkel]

The Americans are going to use it for missile target practice... especially if it has a deathray!

[Steam]

I think you'd soon find out it would be INSANELY EXPENSIVE.

[jrandom]

I think you'd soon find out it would be INSANELY EXPENSIVE.

But totally worth it, if it had a death ray.

[yod]

I think you'd soon find out it would be INSANELY EXPENSIVE.
correct


But totally worth it, if it had a death ray.
...and correct

[Hitcher]

Hmmm. Death ray...

[YellowDog]

I guess the 'Death Ray' idea is a good one.

You could then auction off 5 minute slots for users to do as they see fit. "A better money raising idea than Kiwisaver" I hear you say!

So far as Broadband goes, it depends upon which problem you are looking to address. If you are talking about home and business services - IMO - Satellite is not the answer. There are enough of those already. You just need to do what the rest of the developed world has done and lay fibre cable all around NZ (Wellington has it). I realise that NZ is sparsely populated however most European settlements with >1000 have it, so should not be a problem for NZ.

The solution will take time and cost money. David Cunliffe says that ADSL2 is very close to general availability.

Good one David.

Problem sorted!

[yod]

You just need to do what the rest of the developed world has done and lay fibre cable all around NZ (Wellington has it). I realise that NZ is sparsely populated however most European settlements with >1000 have it, so should be a problem for NZ.

Do you mean fibreoptics around cities/towns or a national network?

because we already have a fibre backbone covering most of the populated country and fibre laid throughout the main centres (not just akl wgtn chch), it's called the telstraclear network

obviously it isn't down every suburban street and into each door but;

a) that would be REAAAALLLY expensive
b) it's unnecessary

[CookMySock]

Should the NZ government buy Xtra and a satellite (or sufficent bandwidth) and provide fast broadband to the whole nation?It won't work. The ping time just to the satellite will be enormous. Then there is the problem of fitting millions of users, all wanting 10mbit connections, into some finite bandspace.

1million users times 10mbit up AND down fullduplex = 1x10^6 * 10x10^6 Hz * 2. Well into the absurd category. There is simply not that band bandspace available.

Unfortunately, fibre to each house is what is needed long-term.

DB

[limbimtimwim]

What do you think?There is the latency problem, something that far away has issues around that. There is also the rain fade problem. Then the downlink from the satellite to the intarnets will get very busy if you have lots of people using it.

You see, once upon a time, the government spent money on infrastructure. That's how nearly everyone got phone, power and a road somewhere near where they lived.

So, what should be done, in my opinion, instead of messing with this radio stuff is just bite the bullet and run half a dozen fibres into every house. Yes, it'll cost an absolute bomb. You don't have to connect it to anything, just get it in there.

The cable in it's bulk form is very durable and once it is there, it'll last decades and you can upgrade the endpoints and get speed increases but leave the cable in place. Eventually whatever is buried will be superseeded, but not for many years. Replacement fibre could be pulled through the installed conduit in many cases.

Each cable would become property of the house/business it is connected to, and each cable would run to a publicly owned box where private companies could patch your fibre into their equipment.

[NighthawkNZ]

I just want a death ray... stuff the broadband

[007XX]

But totally worth it, if it had a death ray.

"Bring in the Laassseeeeer!!!!"

Wasn't the whole debate of Fibre optics discussed by Telecom + Gubermint about 2 years ago and rejected as way too expensive?

[Usarka]

A death ray???? Isn't that what got Steve?


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:aEUpiwWuttLzsM:http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/09/04/gallery/irwin_zoom.jpg

[limbimtimwim]

Wasn't the whole debate of Fibre optics discussed by Telecom + Gubermint about 2 years ago and rejected as way too expensive?That's kinda what I was getting at. Once upon a time, the goverment spent money on core infrastructure. Now the NZ government is kind of in maintenance mode. Sure, a spagetti junction there, a bridge there. But nothing Auckland harbour bridge or Clyde dam sized is on the agenda. They are too scared to just do something about it. Networking to a house is what I think is core infrastructure. If it's not core infrastructure today, in 5 years we'll all be feeling it as we continue to curse telecom's crap ADSL service and TelstraClear's very slow to roll out coaxial cable network.

[007XX]

That's kinda what I was getting at. Once upon a time, the goverment spent money on core infrastructure. Now the NZ government is kind of in maintenance mode. Sure, a spagetti junction there, a bridge there. But nothing Auckland harbour bridge or Clyde dam sized is on the agenda. They are too scared to just do something about it. Networking to a house is what I think is core infrastructure. If it's not core infrastructure today, in 5 years we'll all be feeling it as we continue to curse telecom's crap ADSL service and TelstraClear's very slow to roll out coaxial cable network.

I thought you might be heading for that and yes, I agree...

Even though admitedly the North Shore where I live has seen some major changes to implement bus circuits, there is no serious new projects as you stated.

PS:There is also a tunnel being dug to make a new portion of motorway between Orewa and the back of Waiwera, which has been dragging on for some time...But it is quite a massive project.

[Usarka]

PS:There is also a tunnel being dug to make a new portion of motorway between Orewa and the back of Waiwera, which has been dragging on for some time...But it is quite a massive project.

Everything takes so long here. Your lot built the highest viaduct (bridge) in 3 years. In the unlikely event something like this got started here it would take 8 years at least.....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Wiadukt_Millau.jpg/600px-Wiadukt_Millau.jpg

[007XX]

Everything takes so long here. Your lot built the highest viaduct (bridge) in 3 years. In the unlikely event something like this got started here it would take 8 years at least.....


and a beauty she is too...French are morons for the great majority (and yes, I'm entitled to say that), but they do have some awesome engineers.

The thing is, it doesn't mean their economic system or their governement is any better...far from it actually! I would much rather be here still than go back to living in Paris.

[Ocean1]

It's got nothing to do with technical nouse, it's funding. Kiwi civil engineers were responsible for some very cool design initiatives a generation ago. Today the budget's simply not there. I'd love to know exactly where all our pilfered pennies go but next to none of it's spent on infrastructure. We're already paying for that and it'll get worse unless we take control of our future again.

[Disco Dan]

It's got nothing to do with technical nouse, it's funding. Kiwi civil engineers were responsible for some very cool design initiatives a generation ago. Today the budget's simply not there. I'd love to know exactly where all our pilfered pennies go but next to none of it's spent on infrastructure. We're already paying for that and it'll get worse unless we take control of our future again.

Lets get helen a collar then?

[Hitcher]

Couldn't somebody engineer something so that data traffic fitted into the peaks and troughs in an AC power sine wave, and people could get their broadband out of a three-pin wall socket?

[Usarka]

Couldn't somebody engineer something so that data traffic fitted into the peaks and troughs in an AC power sine wave, and people could get their broadband out of a three-pin wall socket?

and rely on NZ's futureproofed and resilient power network :lol:

[Ocean1]

Couldn't somebody engineer something so that data traffic fitted into the peaks and troughs in an AC power sine wave, and people could get their broadband out of a three-pin wall socket?

I'm aware that research did provide a working solution based on exactly that premis, but I haven't heard anything about it for years.

[tide]

Couldn't somebody engineer something so that data traffic fitted into the peaks and troughs in an AC power sine wave, and people could get their broadband out of a three-pin wall socket?


I'm aware that research did provide a working solution based on exactly that premis, but I haven't heard anything about it for years.

I have seen some LAN based solutions using electrical outlets and tested some myself... they don't work long distance and as a LAN wireless is faster at the moment... go figure...

as for broadband... fibre at the moment is the only way to future proof anything... mind you a death ray has a nice ring to it... :shifty:

Satallite is good for a last option if nothing else is available...

D

[YellowDog]

Do you mean fibreoptics around cities/towns or a national network?

because we already have a fibre backbone covering most of the populated country and fibre laid throughout the main centres (not just akl wgtn chch), it's called the telstraclear network

obviously it isn't down every suburban street and into each door but;

a) that would be REAAAALLLY expensive
b) it's unnecessary
Yes, that is why ADSL2 is presently very close to general availability and the existing problems will have been largely resolved. Most will get a 10Mb/s plus connection (I get 3Mb/s now).

Satellite is only a good option for a very small minority of remote users; but it is slow and very expensive.

There was a Scottish power company a few years back who was offering a 15Mb/s service on their power cables. Essentially everywhere you have electricity, you could also have Broadband. I don't know how well it worked or whether it is still being used however this would be an ideal solution for remote users and possibly everyone.

Unfortunately there was no 'Death Ray' option and hence this would only have limited appeal in NZ.

Perhaps the VooDoofone Vodem is the answer?

Not exactly a 'Death Ray' however it does sound sinister enough eh?

[McJim]

and a beauty she is too...French are morons for the great majority (and yes, I'm entitled to say that), but they do have some awesome engineers.

The thing is, it doesn't mean their economic system or their governement is any better...far from it actually! I would much rather be here still than go back to living in Paris.

Wow! you'd rather see the Sky tower than Eiffel's grand erection?

[mynameis]

Should the NZ government buy Xtra and a satellite (or sufficent bandwidth) and provide fast broadband to the whole nation?

I'm thinking that the cost would be subsidised by the taxpayer, not at current satellite rates. Cheapish for all.

What do you think?

Satellite costs a lot of money and do you want the government controlling the airports, banks, transport companies, shopping malls...ect...ect.

Got the drift. Resonable intervention.

[NighthawkNZ]

Well southland is now part of the space scene with its tracking stations :bwahahha

[CookMySock]

Satellite costs a lot of money and do you want the government controlling the airports, banks, transport companies, shopping malls...ect...ect.actually, I wonder if we might be better off if the govt still owned telescum now. Perhaps we might see some real investment in infrastructure, rather than all this ripoff dodging the consumer type bullshit from its' current owners.

DB

[Ewan Oozarmy]

There was a Scottish power company a few years back who was offering a 15Mb/s service on their power cables. Essentially everywhere you have electricity, you could also have Broadband. I don't know how well it worked or whether it is still being used however this would be an ideal solution for remote users and possibly everyone.

Data can run over power lines no problem, however the issues come when it hits the transformers - ie. when the 70,000 volts (or whatever) gets transformed to 240 volts before entering peoples homes.

[mynameis]

actually, I wonder if we might be better off if the govt still owned telescum now. Perhaps we might see some real investment in infrastructure, rather than all this ripoff dodging the consumer type bullshit from its' current owners.

DB

Working on it slowly and unbundling would be the way to go just like they have in Auz, UK...

[Mully]

Can anyone tell me why there is an obsession with putting cables in the ground, rather than putting cellphone type towers up and having a national wireless grid? Couldn't you then purchase a wireless modem for home (or log in via a mobile device) with a price-plan to suit the speed you want? Couldn't you stick internet "repeaters" on to Cell towers?

Or run fibre optic to the towers and beam it wirelessly from there?

Is it:
Cost?
Resource Management to get the towers?
Wireless can't run as fast? Not as reliable?

Just curious.

[007XX]

Wow! you'd rather see the Sky tower than Eiffel's grand erection?

When I want to see an erection, I stay at home :shifty:...:innocent:

[NighthawkNZ]

Can anyone tell me why there is an obsession with putting cables in the ground, rather than putting cellphone type towers up and having a national wireless grid? Couldn't you then purchase a wireless modem for home (or log in via a mobile device) with a price-plan to suit the speed you want? Couldn't you stick internet "repeaters" on to Cell towers?

Or run fibre optic to the towers and beam it wirelessly from there?
I get bombarded enough from all the other radioactive crap... and cell phones give yah cancer with smoking...


Is it:
Cost?
Resource Management to get the towers?
Wireless can't run as fast? Not as reliable?


In all seriousness yes to all the above,

it probably is cheaper to lay cable,
yes Resource Management would be a major problem... think of the problems they have getting the resource consent now for the cell phone repeaters
on a over-cast day, satilite is no as reliable...

[Swoop]

A gubbinment satellite?
Just shoot Heilen into orbit.
Oh, hang on. "She" (using that term loosley) would frighten all the other alien beings up there.:rofl:


Wow! you'd rather see the Sky tower than Eiffel's grand erection?
When are the froggies going to finish the thing? They have put all the reinforcing into position but when is the boxing and the concrete pour going to get done?

[chrisso]

A Sattelite HaHa .get real---you dont even have a fucking Air Force-how ya gonna afford a Sattelite? :gob:

[limbimtimwim]

Can anyone tell me why there is an obsession with putting cables in the ground, rather than putting cellphone type towers up and having a national wireless grid? Couldn't you then purchase a wireless modem for home (or log in via a mobile device) with a price-plan to suit the speed you want? Couldn't you stick internet "repeaters" on to Cell towers?
Or run fibre optic to the towers and beam it wirelessly from there?
Is it:
Cost?
Resource Management to get the towers?
Wireless can't run as fast? Not as reliable?If it is a privately owned wireless network you are stuck with them. A few money laden organisations can buy the licences to blocks of radio spectrum and then charge you too much money for the privilage of using it. As far as I know, the only way of getting data performance that people find acceptable is via managed spectrum. The wireless router your have in your house shares it's radio spectrum with bluetooth devices, cordless phones and video senders. Using unlicensed spectrum works fine in many cases, but you wouldn't be able to build a national network that provides consistent acceptable performance because one crappy 2.4GHz cordless phone can spam a wide area with radio garbage.

A problem, that can be countered somewhat by throwing technology at it, is that as the range of your data radio system increases, the data rates decrease. This means that to get acceptable data rates, you need to put your cells close together. The cellphone type technology can counter this because they have quite expensive cell sites with clever antenna technology and the computer running it all is also quite clever. And they also don't have to deal with interference from other people's crap. And they control to some degree the devices that connect to the network. Vodafone and Telecom check the models of cellphones they sell (To some degree anyway) to make sure they don't misbehave and disrupt other users.

Ergo a wireless network would have to be run by one organisation with a plan to ensure good performance. It also has to be quite expensive. Now either this organisation is owned by the government, who will charge too much because that is what happens. Or by a private company that has to return money to it's (Overseas) shareholders. The private company also wouldn't bother putting in whizz-bang technology in poor parts of town or out in the styx because there would be no return for shareholders.

Now the idea of a fibre going to a box at the end of the street does not need central control. There would be some glass that pops up in your land somewhere, and there would be some glass that pops up in the box. There is no need for control except for handing out the keys to the boxes on the streets. Once installed and the fibre certified as meeting a certain standard, that's it. There shouldn't be much maintenance except when someone puts a digger through a cable or the box gets hit by a car. Authorised people could open that box and connect your bit of fibre to their bit of equipment. Then you could buy something to put on your end of the fibre, or perhaps rent it. You could do whatever you liked with your fibre and not disrupt anyone else. Likewise with whomever has connected to your fibre in the box; they could connect your fibre to the internet, perhaps some sort of television system or maybe a phone system.

Anyway, that's how I'd like to see it work. ..dum-de-do pipedream..

[jrandom]

A Sattelite HaHa .get real---you dont even have a fucking Air Force...

I vote for using the death ray on the other side of the Tasman first.

[Mooch]

Can anyone tell me why there is an obsession with putting cables in the ground, rather than putting cellphone type towers up and having a national wireless grid? Couldn't you then purchase a wireless modem for home (or log in via a mobile device) with a price-plan to suit the speed you want? Couldn't you stick internet "repeaters" on to Cell towers?

Or run fibre optic to the towers and beam it wirelessly from there?

Is it:
Cost?
Resource Management to get the towers?
Wireless can't run as fast? Not as reliable?

Just curious.

IIt is feasible and available, the argument is 3g mobile data verse technologies like Wimax. The mobile providers that already have the towers are able to do this. The dury is out on Wimax becoming widely adopted. If it isn't then it's unit cost will not come down. It comes down to the cost of capital verse the return on investment. It's also down to tarafing, the mobile providers have traditionally charged a premium for Data (internet) over there networks.

This technology have been expensive to purchased compared to Ethernet based data solutions which the likes of the ISP's normally run.

Speed wise, standards based wireless lags behind fibre and cooper cable and it's speed drops over distance more so than the other two.

EG Fibre , 10,000 Mbit is getting common , Copper 1000 mbit , ADSL to your house can be unto 8 meg , 20 meg with adsl 2 , Mobile 3g 800k to 3.5 meg currently.

Satellite is the most expensive form of wireless data, and has delay and lag due to propagation delay of the signal to be sent from space and back twice. Most satellite owners charge a premium for bandwidth channels, based on the cost of getting the equipment into space, the expensive low volume technology required and the lifecycle of the satellite.

[Jantar]

Couldn't somebody engineer something so that data traffic fitted into the peaks and troughs in an AC power sine wave, and people could get their broadband out of a three-pin wall socket?

There are already speech and data systems using HV power lines. The AC is a carrier and has the speech and data superimposed on it. However, the signals are not strong enough to be transferred through a transformer, so it only works as point to on the HV circuits. There are technical reasons that limit the frequency of the superimposed signal, that will also make it unsuitable for high speed internet.

[NighthawkNZ]

There are already speech and data systems using HV power lines. The AC is a carrier and has the speech and data superimposed on it. However, the signals are not strong enough to be transferred through a transformer, so it only works as point to on the HV circuits. There are technical reasons that limit the frequency of the superimposed signal, that will also make it unsuitable for high speed internet.

I have thought control over my system and 600 million tera-quads of storage using a Grid Operated Database, which allows the fast data transfer. The great thing is because its thought control, It has unlimited range and speed.

The main problem I have is all the porn that comes in, all at once and I only have so many minutes a day to look at it... :sigh: :eek5: :innocent:

[Finn]

In the unlikely event something like this got started here it would take 8 years at least.....

And that's just to get resource consent.

[YellowDog]

I don't like the idea of yet more wireless radiation, plus it would be a crap system designed for ships and remote data feeds.

You'd also have trouble getting the Death Ray idea past parliament.

Perhaps if you rename it as an "Illegal Alien Termination of Visa Advisory Service", they might go for it! (forget the Broadband idea).

[Mully]

"Illegal Alien Termination of Visa Advisory Service"

I don't think the Gummint would go for that.

Maybe if it was the Illegal Immigrant Finder, cuddler and supplier of taxpayer funds they'd go for it.

[CookMySock]

Can anyone tell me why there is an obsession with putting cables in the ground, rather than putting cellphone type towers up and having a national wireless grid?There just isnt the radio bandspace to do it. No way everyone could get a gigabit (each) over a shared wireless link, but over fibre that is easy.

Fibre everywhere is the only real option.

DB

[limbimtimwim]

I don't like the idea of yet more wireless radiationYou don't really think cell sites cause cancer or effect your health do you?

Your choice of the word 'radiation' suggests confusion with nuclear radiation, which causes cancer for sure.

[NighthawkNZ]

Death Ray Death Ray... yah

oh :( no deaf ray

Fibre Optics is more reliable mes think... but Death Ray on that but you could put...

[YellowDog]

You don't really think cell sites cause cancer or effect your health do you?

Your choice of the word 'radiation' suggests confusion with nuclear radiation, which causes cancer for sure.
No confusion from me. Transmitting additional frequencies through the environment in which we live IMO is not a good thing and I'd rather see less rather than more. A lot of the data regarding the potential effect on the human brain has been suppressed. If you can make mice grow brain tumours with concentrated force, there is the potential that such concentrations will affect humans too. Though I must say that the predicted hike in human brain tumours with the mobile phone revolution has not materialised. This is a good thing.

I sometimes use a microwave at home. I don’t go out of my way to put my head against it whilst it is in use and would say the same about any electromagnetic frequency emitting device. If I was on my computer for 10 hours in a day and in direct exposure to satellite enabled broadband frequencies, then I would have concerns and need factual assurances over the potential health risks related to such prolonged exposure (I don’t, some do – and they should get out more).

Back to the answer to the original question: There is no good and reliable satellite based broadband system available that could potentially be an alternative to the present wired broadband system. When there eventually is, maybe this debate can start over.

[chrisso]

I vote for using the death ray on the other side of the Tasman first.

Kill George Gregan with it. And All the Aussie cricket team...../and all the AFL teams

[jrandom]

You don't really think cell sites cause cancer or effect your health do you?

Cell sites? No, indeed. HF stuff doesn't seem to be so much of an issue.

An acquaintance of mine slept for five years in a bedroom 5m from the edge of a very large substation, though.

He subsequently found that he had a brain tumour at the age of 28.

While that may not be statistically significant in the broader picture, barely scraping through that experience alive was pretty fucking statistically significant for him.

I remain unconvinced about EMF health impacts.

[CookMySock]

I sometimes use a microwave at home. I don’t go out of my way to put my head against it whilst it is in use and would say the same about any electromagnetic frequency emitting device.Nup. Microwave ovens transmits two KILOWATTS. Internet link gear transmits two hundred THOUSANDTHS of ONE watt. 2,000 watts versus 0.2 watts.

They are several orders of magnitude different.. and on top of that, your internet antenna is outside on the roof with a very very highly focussed antenna pointing up and away, while your microwave oven is on yer flamin' fridge, looking closely at your nuts. Yes - TWO KILOWATTS looking at your nuts, yet they still work ok you see.. :yes:

DB

[Mooch]

Agree with Dangerousbastard.

Did a radio energy servey at work when we were looking into WIFI.

The worst device on the floor was by far the microwave oven and 2/3rds of the maximum level recommended. Makes you think if you are located the otherside of the wall from the work kitchen.

The next was the sky tv transmitter that was 1 km away. Very low

third was the AM radio transmitter 3 KM away. Very low

In terms of enery , Cellphones regisited next and wi fi next. These were something like 1/1000th of 1/5000th the energy of maximum allowable.

Satelite is lower again , hence the need for a large dish to recieve it.

One thing that does make me laugh is the people who get upset with cell sites at schools,yet allow there kids to have cellphones that are normally in a pocket right next to there skin. The cellphone in the pocket has more reative emf to the kid than the cell site. If you move the cellsite further away, the mobile phone will up it's radio power level to communicate with the cellsite. It makes it worse.

With Wifi the standard in it's base form was designed so it could operate in ECU's in hospitals , which i find rather reassuring. Rule of thumb I use , don't sit within 90 cm of your access point for long periods. The energy drop of is substancial the further away you sit. The wifi cards on your PC's and Laptops
and it's attenna gains has very low emf. (they don't worry me)

Power stations / sub stantions in my view are a different matter, if you think about the energy from these (they power suburbs / large buildings) I for one would not live close to those.

[Winston001]

So we are agreed - buy a Death Ray instead, and point it at Parliament just to keep the residents focused on their job..... :D

The reason I posted was because of an article which said NZ was slipping backwards in the broadband stakes. I'm not convinced that fast internet for everyone is the magic bullet for our economy but we shouldn't ignore it either. In my opinion, instead of concentrating on ADSL2 for the cities, as a nation we should ensure everyone has ADSL1 in the first place.

I'm not a fan of big govenment projects but sometimes it is the only sensible option. Our total population is the size of a large city overseas. We live on narrow mountainous islands. Getting fibre to everyone will be damned expensive but if the government undertook the work, it will get done. There is already a lot of cable laid anyway.

The question is whether the cost is worth it? Despite the very interesting and rational posts here regarding the problems with wireless, and electric cables, technology in 5 years could have solved it.

[Hitcher]

Some people have obviously never heard of the inverse square law.

[jrandom]

the inverse square law

'Gotta be hip'?

[Winston001]

Some people have obviously never heard of the inverse square law.

Quoi?

If you mean the law of diminishing returns in the economic sense (which is what you imply) just say so man.

Can't quite see the relevance unless you mean the exponential drop in wireless signal as one moves away from the transmitter. Speak up, we can't hear you Hitcher.... :bye:

[Hitcher]

Can't quite see the relevance unless you mean the exponential drop in wireless signal as one moves away from the transmitter. Speak up, we can't hear you Hitcher...

That's exactly what I meant. Apologies for any needless ambiguity.

[Winston001]

Sorry Hitch - is this the 5 minute argument or the full half-hour?

[Mooch]

Death Ray for Parliment ..... I would have a grandstand seat looking out the Window.......

Agree on the adsl 1 comments , I'd also like to see the backhaul oversubscription rate drop. The 2 meg adsl I had in London ment 2 meg downloads. I'd be luckly to get 128k - 512k at best on NZ internet for internation traffic.

kiwibiker.co.nz ran real quick out of London with minimal packet loss. Can't say the same here using xtra as an ISP.

Hitcher , bring on the argument , I need some suitable bed time reading to fall a sleep quickly with ......

[Skyryder]

Some people have obviously never heard of the inverse square law.

I thought that was a Photoshop tool.:angry2: Leaves a bloody big hole.................like a death ray.

Skyryder