1st Bin: Binned my new bike

[Stromble]

Hey folks,

I bought a Kawasaki Versys last week and binned it 100Kmh on a bend in Waitoki last friday. Perfect dry sunny day, not a sharp bend, just one of those long sweepers, felt that I couldnt lean the bike long enough and drifted over the white line and caught the gravel.. Next thing I knew, I was upside down in the ditch with the bike up the embankment and a sore leg..

Damage:

Bike: Bent bars, scratched panels, little scuff on the rear wheel rim.

Me: Lost a few layers of skin, from road burns to right leg, no breaks, just lots of bruises, thank god for good gear.. apart from the jeans. Never again will I go out without my lower gear on. Weird as even when I nip out to the shops up the road, I always kit up from head to toe and the one day I didnt, this happens...!! ah well, lesson learned..

Not quite sure of what happened, been thinking it over for a few days now and replaying the events in my head. Only thing I can think of is that I got a little confident on the new bike quickly, though obviously not confident enough to drop the bike a little further into the corner once I started to drift..

Bike' been booked in for inspection, just need to ensure that there isnt any serious frame damage etc.. but seems to be cosmetic.

My helmet was scratched, mainly the visor went down the road, jacket torn, and half the carbon knuckles ground of my gloves..(hands absolutely fine - thanks to the guys at Motomail for making me spend on good gloves and helmet.!:niceone:) Though I think I will be switching the Cordura jacket to leather...

The bike has Shinko tyres which arent stock, I think this bike sells new with Bridgestone BT020's 160/60/17 back and 120/70/17 front.. though upon closer inspection, the rear Shinko is 170/60/17...

Without jumping to assumptions that this would be dangerous or have contributed to my bin, I am interested to know the thoughts on fitting oversized tyres to bikes? I know people do it to cars, but doesnt seem as risky when you have 4 wheels..

Any wisdom would be much appreciated..

[gijoe1313]

Cripes, you were lucky! How long have you been riding? I'll leave it for the more learned folk to add their observations.

Just remember to get yourself checked out properly like!

[Crisis management]

In all likelyhood you stuffed up.

Don't blame the tyres, conditions etc, you have to gain the skills to ride around those issues, they are with you every day.

Sounds like you got off lightly, congratulations, now get back out there riding.

[Squiggles]

Shinko's arent great, but the bike didnt slide out from under you, the rear being oversize wont have helped. What most likely contributed would be you, thinking that you couldnt lean more :bugger:

[madandy]

I shouldn't think the rear tyre being one size up from stock would contribute to your off. It would possibly effect how the bike tips into turns but shouldn't have prevented you from cranking her down harder in time if you were cornering at a suitable pace for th bend.
If I've read right you seem to have experienced some severe understeer. How is the front tyre? Correctly inflated? plenty of rubber left on it?

Sorry to hear of your misfortune - may you learn something valuable from it on top of the lesson that jeans are not much use above jogging speed.
Heal well.

[surfchick]

lady luck was with long enough for you to stay within better limits and NEVER do that again..be good to find your limits more slowy on ya nu ride. and great call re getting decent gloves etc. hand are precious weee things ;) useful for all sorts of tasks :devil2:

[vifferman]

Perfect dry sunny day, not a sharp bend, just one of those long sweepers, felt that I couldnt lean the bike long enough and drifted over the white line and caught the gravel.. Next thing I knew, I was upside down in the ditch with the bike up the embankment and a sore leg.
Classic result of inexperience. More'n likely, you looked at the corner, went "OMIGOD! I'm not going to make it!", :eek: then stopped looking through the corner and started looking at the corner, which is where you ended up.

Basically, you go where you look. The Shinkos may have contributed to it, in that they felt like there wasn't much lean left. Some tyres are like that: they don't give you confidence there's more lean left, and that if you tip it in any more, the bike will fall over/crash/skid/bite your arse/all of the above.

[FROSTY]

Trying to get a mental image of the situation.
Dry day -big right? hand sweeper you were cornering at 100km/h and ran off the road on the left?
3 possible senarios
1) you hit a tar snake and startd to slide
2)You target fixated and ran straight at the ditch
3)You simply forgot to lean

Not to suggest you aint tellin the truth --another possibility is that you were going a "bit" faster and simply underestimated how much you needed to lean

[Stromble]

Classic result of inexperience. More'n likely, you looked at the corner, went "OMIGOD! I'm not going to make it!", :eek: then stopped looking through the corner and started looking at the corner, which is where you ended up.

Basically, you go where you look. The Shinkos may have contributed to it, in that they felt like there wasn't much lean left. Some tyres are like that: they don't give you confidence there's more lean left, and that if you tip it in any more, the bike will fall over/crash/skid/bite your arse/all of the above.


You're right there Vifferman.. I got to the point where I convinced myself I wasn't going to make the corner and started wondering where I was gonna land.. looked there and sure as hell, thats where I laid.. :Oops:

Absolutely agree on the experience part, just one of momentry lapses of thought and that was it. Been round the same route 50 times before, no problems. Hopefully Ill be back round the same bend soon!

[Stromble]

Trying to get a mental image of the situation.
Dry day -big right? hand sweeper you were cornering at 100km/h and ran off the road on the left?
3 possible senarios
1) you hit a tar snake and startd to slide
2)You target fixated and ran straight at the ditch
3)You simply forgot to lean

Not to suggest you aint tellin the truth --another possibility is that you were going a "bit" faster and simply underestimated how much you needed to lean


Yep, big right hander. I think Viffer hit the nail on the head.. I did become target fixated..

[HungusMaximist]

It's all good brother and don't take it too much at heart. It is a psychological thing 99 % of the time and you can only learn from this!

Just remember, in most cases your skills run out before the bikes does.

[vifferman]

I think Viffer hit the nail on the head.. I did become target fixated..
It's VERY easy to do. Remember: the bike can go a lot faster and corner more betterer than you think you can.
But when you forget that, you tend to panic, tense up, and think too much, when you should be (by instinct, through practicing good cornering technique over and over again), be continuing to look as far ahead through the corner as you can, leaning a bit more, and (if necessary) hanging off the inside a bit.

[Stromble]

I shouldn't think the rear tyre being one size up from stock would contribute to your off. It would possibly effect how the bike tips into turns but shouldn't have prevented you from cranking her down harder in time if you were cornering at a suitable pace for th bend.
If I've read right you seem to have experienced some severe understeer. How is the front tyre? Correctly inflated? plenty of rubber left on it?

Sorry to hear of your misfortune - may you learn something valuable from it on top of the lesson that jeans are not much use above jogging speed.
Heal well.

Thanks Andy,
Front tyre is ok, plenty of grip. I rode it to Whangerei and back the day before, through all the twisties, really enjoyed the bike, not a single scare, bike seemed to do everything I wanted.. So the next days event was quite random.. Though youre right, I certainly have learned some lessons, and mainly yes, wearing jeans=not good.!:spanking:

[Boob Johnson]

Funny you mention those Shinko tyres. I just returned from a trip to the friendly bike shop & while I was waiting had a wee look at what tyres they had in stock. A Shinko 180/55/17 was $195 next to the Metlzer Z6 & the likes all at $330 ish.

Some things you can cut corners on (no pun intended.........honest :innocent:) but tyres are not one of them :spanking:

Not suggesting it was 100% the tyres fault, obviously the rider has to take the majority of the blame in this case but hell, you wouldn't catch me with some cheap ass brand of tyre on my bike or any other for that matter.

Heal well mate, lesson learned by the sounds of it :niceone:



Hopefully Ill be back round the same bend soon!
That's the spirit, straight back on the horse :clap:

[Stromble]

Funny you mention those Shinko tyres. I just returned from a trip to the friendly bike shop & while I was waiting had a wee look at what tyres they had in stock. A Shinko 180/55/17 was $195 next to the Metlzer Z6 & the likes all at $330 ish.

Some things you can cut corners on (no pun intended.........honest :innocent:) but tyres are not one of them :spanking:

Not suggesting it was 100% the tyres fault, obviously the rider has to take the majority of the blame in this case but hell, you wouldn't catch me with some cheap ass brand of tyre on my bike or any other for that matter.

Heal well mate, lesson learned by the sounds of it :niceone:



That's the spirit, straight back on the horse :clap:

Yeh, the Shinkos are going, not that I blame them, they did feel incredibly grippy on the long twisties up north, but I would rather ensure the bike has its recommended tyre sizes.. Luckily a guy on trade me was selling the tyres off his ER-6, which are the same stock tyres used on the Versys, Just received them today, hardly used. Will be having them fitted tomorrow!

[Kittyhawk]

Overconfident and understimated power of the bike, reading the road and knowing how to corner...

Your input created a negative output. It was not the bikes fault this happend.

When you realised you were over the line and hitting gravel you must have looked down in front, and thats where you would have gone...

If you had of looked through the corner, and focused on your exit point despite the surface changing, you would have had an oh fuck moment instead and carried on..

It's shit like this that gets to me...

Bad kitty day here :mad:

[Boob Johnson]

Yeh, the Shinkos are going, not that I blame them, they did feel incredibly grippy on the long twisties up north, but I would rather ensure the bike has its recommended tyre sizes.. Luckily a guy on trade me was selling the tyres off his ER-6, which are the same stock tyres used on the Versys, Just received them today, hardly used. Will be having them fitted tomorrow!
That's the story, don't know anything about the Shinko's had never heard of them until today but anything that cheap is usually for a good reason <_<

[jrandom]

Such a bin is easily entered into.

After the lunchbreak at the last MotoTT trackday at Taupo, I headed back out on Betty, and I was a bit tired and distracted.

Got to turn 5, a sharp 110-ish degree right hander, turned in on my usual line and just drifted myself straight off the left-hand side of the track.

Bumped over the grass for a bit, thought 'wtf', stopped and checked, then headed back on and continued around.

If I'd done that on a road with no safe runoff, I'd have been upside-down in a ditch, saying naughty words to myself.

Eternal vigilance is the key! Glad you're in one piece, tsmj.

[FROSTY]

some things you can cut corners on (no pun intended.........honest :innocent:) but tyres are not one of them :spanking:Not suggesting it was 100% the tyres fault, obviously the rider has to take the majority of the blame in this case but hell, you wouldn't catch me with some cheap ass brand of tyre on my bike or any other for that matter.
Sorry dude but that for the AVERAGE newbee rider is the biggest crock of shit I've heard.
Not having a go at the poor bugger that crashed but I will 100% promise if a more experienced rider was on the bike they wouldn't have crashed.
NOTHING to do with the tyres.
I'd love to run a "blind taste test" for a few average newbees and seee if they are able to tell the difference between a shinko and a metmickerelli type r race compound

[jrandom]

Sorry dude but that for the AVERAGE newbee rider is the biggest crock of shit I've heard.

+1

Boob, stop being a boob.

[madandy]

I ran a Shinko on the back of my old RF400 a few years ago. Right through a BOP winter. It was as good as the Mez3 it replaced. Well it was just as good at coping with very wet roads at 6:30am.
I don't think they're that bad if yuo're riding to a reasonable limit on the road and surely they must meet or exceed some testing before being made available?
I considered using Shinkos again on my old Gixxer but scored some Michellin Pilot Powers for Shinko money :)

[Stromble]

Such a bin is easily entered into.

After the lunchbreak at the last MotoTT trackday at Taupo, I headed back out on Betty, and I was a bit tired and distracted.

Got to turn 5, a sharp 110-ish degree right hander, turned in on my usual line and just drifted myself straight off the left-hand side of the track.

Bumped over the grass for a bit, thought 'wtf', stopped and checked, then headed back on and continued around.

If I'd done that on a road with no safe runoff, I'd have been upside-down in a ditch, saying naughty words to myself.

Eternal vigilance is the key! Glad you're in one piece, tsmj.

Thanks Mate,

Good to hear it happens to others..

Obviously nothing like this has ever happened to Kittyhawk :oi-grr: god forbid the outcome..

[Stromble]

Overconfident and understimated power of the bike, reading the road and knowing how to corner...

Your input created a negative output. It was not the bikes fault this happend.

When you realised you were over the line and hitting gravel you must have looked down in front, and thats where you would have gone...

If you had of looked through the corner, and focused on your exit point despite the surface changing, you would have had an oh fuck moment instead and carried on..

It's shit like this that gets to me...

Bad kitty day here :mad:

Poor Kitty.. why such a bad day..:violin: surely its not my bin that angered you so..??

[Kittyhawk]

Poor Kitty.. why such a bad day..:violin: surely its not my bin that angered you so..??

Nah twas the icing on the cake...:nono: spend a day with me and I'll get you riding so you wont arse off....

[Stromble]

Nah twas the icing on the cake...:nono: spend a day with me and I'll get you riding so you wont arse off....

Id love to.. always willing to learn more :niceone:

[Kittyhawk]

Id love to.. always willing to learn more :niceone:

lol make sure you pack well....

spare towel
extra underwear
sliders

[Stromble]

lol make sure you pack well....

spare towel
extra underwear
sliders

Spare Towel ??
Extra underwear - Fair enough..
Sliders - Oh Shit...:sweatdrop

[Subike]

shenko tyres are no good on a light weight bike, they dont get hot enough to work. I use them on my old girl and have had no problems getting it to move where ever I point her.
I have read posts before about Shenko's, those who have had problems have all been riders of lightweights, can somebody point me to a heavy weight bike that has had problems with the Shenko"s?
I think that Target fixation may have been you downfall coupled with not looking at where you wanted to be rather than looking at where you were in the instant that you felt wrong
Good to know you are OK and only brused
Enjoy you next ride

[MVnut]

Trying to get a mental image of the situation.
Dry day -big right? hand sweeper you were cornering at 100km/h and ran off the road on the left?
3 possible senarios
1) you hit a tar snake and startd to slide
2)You target fixated and ran straight at the ditch
3)You simply forgot to lean

Not to suggest you aint tellin the truth --another possibility is that you were going a "bit" faster and simply underestimated how much you needed to lean

reckon Frosty got it with 'forgot to lean'.....me, I try not to think too much when I'm on a bike.........thinking too much usually gets me in the shit:blank:

[aff-man]

Glad to hear you didn't come off to bad mate....

Hey frostmister sorry but gonna have to disagree with you about them tyres..

Sure a noobs would probably not be able to tell a shinko from an M3 from a supercorsa from a whatever... But it doesn't mean that the tyres won't behave differently. Coming into a corner at say 100 clicks and tipping it in or not tipping it in, tyre profile and grip have a lot to do with how you come out the other side. Cheaper tyres that offer less grip will see you drifting (even if you are not aware of it) more than stickier ones. So although it is most likely rider error, given the same situation on different tryes may have given that extra edge. But for an unexperienced rider being able to use that extra edge is just luck...

Just my opinion but i've run cheaper tyres once or twice and is why i'll go for the ex racies over the new cheapies any day.

[pete376403]

That's the story, don't know anything about the Shinko's had never heard of them until today but anything that cheap is usually for a good reason <_<
Shinko are what used to be known as Yokohama. Yokohama got out of the motorcycle tyre business and sold the equipment to what is know known as Shinko in Korea. Yokohama engineers setup the plant in the new location and stayed with Shinko for an initial period while they established themselves. They've been in business for a good few years.

www.shinkotire.co.kr if you can read Korean Hanguel

[MVnut]

Glad to hear you didn't come off to bad mate....

Hey frostmister sorry but gonna have to disagree with you about them tyres..

Sure a noobs would probably not be able to tell a shinko from an M3 from a supercorsa from a whatever... But it doesn't mean that the tyres won't behave differently. Coming into a corner at say 100 clicks and tipping it in or not tipping it in, tyre profile and grip have a lot to do with how you come out the other side. Cheaper tyres that offer less grip will see you drifting (even if you are not aware of it) more than stickier ones. So although it is most likely rider error, given the same situation on different tryes may have given that extra edge. But for an unexperienced rider being able to use that extra edge is just luck...

Just my opinion but i've run cheaper tyres once or twice and is why i'll go for the ex racies over the new cheapies any day.

Shouldn't make the difference between binning and not binning in this scenario

[Stromble]

Ok... I think we can rule out the tyre... and indeed it was my error, in a lapse of concentration when I felt I was drifting, I looked at the bend, hit the bend.. hard..:doh:

As I said before, I dont think its to blame, I just wanted to hear folks opinions on running the oversized tyre and what effects it may have on the bike..?

What would be the differences in cornering, grip etc with a 170/16/17 than a standard 160/6017 ? anyone tried this?

[tri boy]

Another point to remember is your position on the road prior to tipping in.
A metre closer to the centre line on a right hander is going to tighten your line considerably more than if you were wider/closer to the left.
Things get really busy really quickly in this situation, and being cranked over sometimes just isn't enough. (although the comments on target fixation, and the bikes ability are both spot on). Glad you walked away. Some don't.

With regards to tyre size and grip, there will be little difference in grip. But definitely a difference in the bikes cornering characteristic. Although, I don't think this will be too obvious to 90% of us riders.

[Kittyhawk]

Spare Towel ??
Extra underwear - Fair enough..
Sliders - Oh Shit...:sweatdrop

Youll know when it happens....someone has to demonstrate stationary throttle control :devil2:

[Gaz]

Ok... I think we can rule out the tyre... and indeed it was my error, in a lapse of concentration when I felt I was drifting, I looked at the bend, hit the bend.. hard..:doh:

As I said before, I dont think its to blame, I just wanted to hear folks opinions on running the oversized tyre and what effects it may have on the bike..?

What would be the differences in cornering, grip etc with a 170/16/17 than a standard 160/6017 ? anyone tried this?


Hey fella, - you didn't need more grip. Looking where you WILL go is a rule of physics. BUT I'm amazed no-one has mentioned counter-steering. Practicing this (emergency counter-steering) could actually save your life. l

[Stromble]

Hey fella, - you didn't need more grip. Looking where you WILL go is a rule of physics. BUT I'm amazed no-one has mentioned counter-steering. Practicing this (emergency counter-steering) could actually save your life. l

Thanks Gaz,

I used countersteer all the time, and even consciously once used it in emergency when a car pulled straight out in from of me from the left, I even suprised my self what the bike could do (and I have a V-strom at the time, bloody heavy!)

Only this time I didnt, weird, I really did get transfixed on where I was going to ditch the bike....

Though appreciate the advice, will be definately practising my cornering and counter steering abilities once im back up..

[Grub]

The bike has Shinko tyres which arent stock, I think this bike sells new with Bridgestone BT020's 160/60/17 back and 120/70/17 front.. though upon closer inspection, the rear Shinko is 170/60/17...

Without jumping to assumptions that this would be dangerous or have contributed to my bin, I am interested to know the thoughts on fitting oversized tyres to bikes? I know people do it to cars, but doesnt seem as risky when you have 4 wheels..

Any wisdom would be much appreciated..

Not two minutes ago I posted this in another thread!


Sorry I was referring to the back tire. I still have a little chicken stripes on the front, but nothing on the back. So I'm thinking if I get a bigger back wheel and get lower, I can find the max of the front wheel.

Same applies to the back. There was a really big thread on this about 8 days ago woth lots of technical background. See if you can find it. It basically comes down to this ...

The tyre and the rim size are matched. If you put a wider tyre on the existing rim then it has to wrap around in a smaller circle to fit the narrow rim. This can make your tip-in feel really weird (either too fast or too slow) and if you really get it wrong you end up with less tyre contact patch rather than more.

Then there's the relation of the rear tyre's width to the front. Mis-matched and they don't have the same roll into the corner which means you could end up with bad understeer or oversteer, I can't remember which. The geometry of a bike is hugely complex with castor, trail, dip and all sorts of other parameters all designed by those big computers to work together - I wouldn't change a thing.

Sorry about your bin tsmj, I hope it wasn't the tyres but I do hear so many times (esp young guys) wanting to change up to big fat tyres. All I can say is that if a fat tyre is the best for that bike, Kawasaki would have made it like that. Shitty that someone else's big penis envy has cost you a bin

[Stromble]

Not two minutes ago I posted this in another thread!



Same applies to the back. There was a really big thread on this about 8 days ago woth lots of technical background. See if you can find it. It basically comes down to this ...

The tyre and the rim size are matched. If you put a wider tyre on the existing rim then it has to wrap around in a smaller circle to fit the narrow rim. This can make your tip-in feel really weird (either too fast or too slow) and if you really get it wrong you end up with less tyre contact patch rather than more.

Then there's the relation of the rear tyre's width to the front. Mis-matched and they don't have the same roll into the corner which means you could end up with bad understeer or oversteer, I can't remember which. The geometry of a bike is hugely complex with castor, trail, dip and all sorts of other parameters all designed by those big computers to work together - I wouldn't change a thing.

Sorry about your bin tsmj, I hope it wasn't the tyres but I do hear so many times (esp young guys) wanting to change up to big fat tyres. All I can say is that if a fat tyre is the best for that bike, Kawasaki would have made it like that. Shitty that someone else's big penis envy has cost you a bin


Cheers Grub!

Weird, I was just reading that other thread...spooky... Absolutely, I am not happy with the wider Shinko on the back. If they were the correct size, I would keep em. Already received my Bridgestone replacements today, so they will be going on over the weekend. I have Battleaxs on my previous V-strom and there were no chicken strips left on those, so will be happier once these are on..

[Grub]

...:nono: spend a day with me and I'll get you riding so you wont arse off....

Well that sort of statement would make me run a mile!

[Kittyhawk]

Well that sort of statement would make me run a mile!

Come here sunshine!! - wanna play?

[Gaz]

Thanks Gaz,

I used countersteer all the time, and even consciously once used it in emergency when a car pulled straight out in from of me from the left, I even suprised my self what the bike could do (and I have a V-strom at the time, bloody heavy!)

Only this time I didnt, weird, I really did get transfixed on where I was going to ditch the bike....

Though appreciate the advice, will be definately practising my cornering and counter steering abilities once im back up..

whenever I find I've gone in toooo hot, I quietly say push - this prompts me to CS. Screaming F$%K its OVER - has the opposite effect.

[westie]

Wow all the crap bout "those bad tyres" and not one word bout how he chopped off the gas moments before he started sliding. Yes thats right rule number one to twelve on cornering. Even if it is just 500 rpm its gotta stay on or you're going out to the edge of the grippy stuff.

Bummer you crashed dude. Read some motorcycle technique books (twist of the wrist) and do some track days. Soo much fun and learning.
Take care:scooter:

[Stromble]

Wow all the crap bout "those bad tyres" and not one word bout how he chopped off the gas moments before he started sliding. Yes thats right rule number one to twelve on cornering. Even if it is just 500 rpm its gotta stay on or you're going out to the edge of the grippy stuff.

Bummer you crashed dude. Read some motorcycle technique books (twist of the wrist) and do some track days. Soo much fun and learning.
Take care:scooter:


Nice... and another valid perspective.! thanks.. this forum is great.!

[Gaz]

tsmj, have a look at this...

- its not gory. just bad.


http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=cXuORVo-eQo&feature=related

[Stromble]

tsmj, have a look at this...

- its not gory. just bad.

What the F.....??!? those guys are mental.. but what an amazing dodge of the car... how lucky was he..??

[Gaz]

What the F.....??!? those guys are mental.. but what an amazing dodge of the car... how lucky was he..??

Lucky they both made it that far... I don't think any of their corners were even average. These sort of clowns are why bikers get a bad name.

[Stromble]

One thing I have noticed in the last week, is how many riders Ive seen out in just shorts and t-shirts.. not even a pair of gloves.. now makes me cringe even more..

...but then they are probably better at cornering than me... (but still, no one can dodge that unexpected diesel spill..)

[Gaz]

One thing I have noticed in the last week, is how many riders Ive seen out in just shorts and t-shirts.. not even a pair of gloves.. now makes me cringe even more..

...but then they are probably better at cornering than me... (but still, no one can dodge that unexpected diesel spill..)

They are dicks. They think they can ride better than the rest of us. - we''ll still feel sorry for them when they loose all their skin.

Gravity is a law and skin is softer than asphalt. I've found a neat trick to stay cool on those hot days... I wear a rash -shirt (actually a climatec garment, but that sounds gay) under my gear. seriously, no sweat.

[aff-man]

Shouldn't make the difference between binning and not binning in this scenario

well yes and no.. I was refering to frosty's post about differences in tyres.

As for the yes if you read my post I said was user error but a better tyres would have given more confidence to lean it in more when they were running wide If running to wide a little trick is to tap the back break. It basically drops the bike further into the corner hence tightening your riding line. (for people reading DON'T stamp on the brake you will crash) I have done it once or twice but you need the conficence in yourself and tyres to do it. Personally seeing a newer rider go dirt riding in the ditch after not making a turn it sounds like it was as most suggested target fixation. Experienced riders still get it but they shut it off and react to the sitaution faster and hence probably come out of it ok. And these fast shifts in a sticky situation are helped by the tyres..... So after a long windedness thingy ma-jig in THIS situation better tyres could have with a bit of experience heled him get out of it. And different tyres DO have an effect on how your bike corners adn it's cornering capabilities....

Hope you're back on the road quick..

[howdamnhard]

Glad to hear your OK.Always take it easy and take the time to feel out a new bike/car etc,before pushing the limits.You've obviously learnt the wearing all your gear lesson to.Hope you and the bike are all good.Now get back to riding.:2thumbsup

[DogBreath]

Yep, big right hander. I think Viffer hit the nail on the head.. I did become target fixated..

Yeah, been there dun that, dammit, got the possum thing going. I think we just talk ourselves out of the turn sometimes. I got grass stains only, u ripped some skin, some die. life goes on eh?
What do they say, 3 bins to learn? Heres to 2 and 3.
Lucky boy

[DogBreath]

tsmj, have a look at this...

- its not gory. just bad.

Bad, and not in any good way. How did he miss?? Noticed they had bugger all lean going on at all, that upright body line reminds me of the old motorcycle cops, maybe they were...
Or is that just how buells behave?
Gotta respect the thumbs up tho. Got his cool back quick.

[offrd]

Years ago crashed my CBX that i had for 6 days. Very easy corner... Gust of wind, Freaked out a bit, Looked at my landing spot, Got the bike airborne off the side of the road, Barrell rolled down the side of the road breaking my arm. The bike went up thru the scrub and acted as a scrubcrusher...

Very much a learner back in those days.... Had never heard of target fixation, no such thing as the internet to discuss this kind of thing way back then.

I gave up road riding for many many years after this accident and took up dirt. I find now that i have been riding for years... Dirt hurts more as it has a bigger magnet that attracts me into it!

:2thumbsup to all that have added to this post and all the other posts along the same subject over my short time on KB.

TSMJ, glad to hear you and the bike are in not to bad shape!

[Jimmy B]

Running wide can get us all irrespective of experience, it’s what you do when it becomes apparent that is often the difference. My pet hate is unexpected decreasing radius corners and there are a few really tight unmarked ones out there.

When I am “running out of lean” in these corners stopping is not usually the best option and nor is stepping on the brakes to try and tip the bike in. Personally if the X gets sideways I don’t want to be there. What works for me is push or counter steering; this will unlock instant lean with very little effort but, like anything to do with bikes, requires practice to get right.

[90s]

Not two minutes ago I posted this in another thread!



Same applies to the back. There was a really big thread on this about 8 days ago woth lots of technical background. See if you can find it. It basically comes down to this ...

The tyre and the rim size are matched. If you put a wider tyre on the existing rim then it has to wrap around in a smaller circle to fit the narrow rim. This can make your tip-in feel really weird (either too fast or too slow) and if you really get it wrong you end up with less tyre contact patch rather than more.

Then there's the relation of the rear tyre's width to the front. Mis-matched and they don't have the same roll into the corner which means you could end up with bad understeer or oversteer, I can't remember which. The geometry of a bike is hugely complex with castor, trail, dip and all sorts of other parameters all designed by those big computers to work together - I wouldn't change a thing.

Sorry about your bin tsmj, I hope it wasn't the tyres but I do hear so many times (esp young guys) wanting to change up to big fat tyres. All I can say is that if a fat tyre is the best for that bike, Kawasaki would have made it like that. Shitty that someone else's big penis envy has cost you a bin

I had a dirt bike that had been used in a beach racing series once, and a huge rear oversize tyre was fitted. It certainly affected handling, esp. turn in.

But so what? You learn to ride the bike you have got, and if you bin "because" of this then are riding badly.
If your tyres lack grip in the wet - back off.
If your tyres give strange turn-in, don't run too hot until you've figured it out.
If someone has modified a bike you have bought in any of numerous ways relating to ride and handling, ride cautiously until you figure it out.

If you don't know that answers to how the bike will handle, don't try to find out by riding above your level.

But as the thread has already explored, this bin caused by pure rider error and inexperience. If you think as in the original post "the bike won't lean more" then you are always, but always, wrong. 9 times from 10 the bike can make almost any corner that *you* think it can't. Fear and panic - what's the solution? Training.

[Insanity_rules]

I think you'd have to be going pretty hard to notice tire limitations. In my experience you'd know if the tires let go. Bad luck on the crash, I'm nursing gravel rash myself. Hurts don't it?

[Stromble]

I had a dirt bike that had been used in a beach racing series once, and a huge rear oversize tyre was fitted. It certainly affected handling, esp. turn in.

But so what? You learn to ride the bike you have got, and if you bin "because" of this then are riding badly.
If your tyres lack grip in the wet - back off.
If your tyres give strange turn-in, don't run too hot until you've figured it out.
If someone has modified a bike you have bought in any of numerous ways relating to ride and handling, ride cautiously until you figure it out.

If you don't know that answers to how the bike will handle, don't try to find out by riding above your level.

But as the thread has already explored, this bin caused by pure rider error and inexperience. If you think as in the original post "the bike won't lean more" then you are always, but always, wrong. 9 times from 10 the bike can make almost any corner that *you* think it can't. Fear and panic - what's the solution? Training.

Good info, but wasnt riding above my level, unfortunately just one of those days.. but absolutely, practise makes better..

Though I do know where my kill switch is... :lol:

[90s]

Though I do know where my kill switch is... :lol:

Surely you don't remember my embarrassing kill switch incident a year ago?

No? that's good. What incident, no I don't know what you are talking about ... :innocent:

[Stromble]

Surely you don't remember my embarrassing kill switch incident a year ago?

No? that's good. What incident, no I don't know what you are talking about ... :innocent:

Absolutely... memorable.. though I must admit myself once, got to work in the car and sat for 30 mins trying the prise the key from the lock, it just wouldnt come out... arghhh, then finally realised it was still in drive, clicked it to park, and like:blink: magic the key released.!

[Waxxa]

Bummer tsmj. The Versys come out with Dunlops front 120/70/17 and rear 160/60/17. I've dumped the Dunlops for Continentals and am very happy with that choice. Glad you are OK and the bikes' not to badly damaged. Once you are back on the road again, get the owners manual out and check out the suspension default settings the bike comes out with and then adjust those settings to suit your weight.

[Stromble]

Bummer tsmj. The Versys come out with Dunlops front 120/70/17 and rear 160/60/17. I've dumped the Dunlops for Continentals and am very happy with that choice. Glad you are OK and the bikes' not to badly damaged. Once you are back on the road again, get the owners manual out and check out the suspension default settings the bike comes out with and then adjust those settings to suit your weight.

Cheers Waxxa,

Ive got an owners manual on order as there wasnt one on the bike. You can probably help me out with the correct tyre pressures? what does the manual recommend?

[Waxxa]

It will depend on the tyres. With the Dunlops I was running 32psi on the front and 38 psi on the rear.

With the Contis' I'm running 36 psi on the front and 40 psi on the rear.

[Stromble]

Wow, seems pretty high.. though if thats the manual recommendations..! and obviously holding the road well for you :)

[Katman]

but wasnt riding above my level,

I'd question that.

(But then, you all knew I would).:msn-wink:

[Stromble]

Guess I was waiting for this... the wise one steps in...:not:

[YellowDog]

Gained a lot from this thread. Thanks.

[mitchilin]

Borders at Westfield Albany has a copy or two.Brilliant book.I'm halfway through it and have been reading it for a while.I'm not a slow reader but until I understand it I won't read further.As a matter of interest what corner was it, in Waitoki?I can't think of any bad corners out that way.There is one out Wainui Rd that tightens if you go in too hot,and that's going towards Silverdale.Anyway,sorry about your "off" but,hey,we've all done it and if you learn from it,that's good.Good luck in the future,mate.

[Stromble]

Borders at Westfield Albany has a copy or two.Brilliant book.I'm halfway through it and have been reading it for a while.I'm not a slow reader but until I understand it I won't read further.As a matter of interest what corner was it, in Waitoki?I can't think of any bad corners out that way.There is one out Wainui Rd that tightens if you go in too hot,and that's going towards Silverdale.Anyway,sorry about your "off" but,hey,we've all done it and if you learn from it,that's good.Good luck in the future,mate.

Cheers, Ill be going up there tomorrow.. will definately get a copy..

Sounds like the bend you mentioned, I'm gonna have a run up there tomorrow hopefully in the car to find it and familiarise myself, as Ive checked out on google maps and cant seem to find the bugger..! Was definately on Wainui Road heading from Albany upto Silverdale.. the embankment/gully at the side of the bend has all sorts of memorabilia down it, from tools to car parts, and even me last week! :)

Nice to see some constructive advice for a change, rather than the usual "tut tuts :nono:" and "you were riding above your level :angry2:" etc...

[Katman]

Nice to see some constructive advice for a change,


Some constructive advice? Always ride within your ability.:msn-wink:

[Stromble]

Some constructive advice? Always ride within your ability.:msn-wink:

And some for you.. Dont waste your time posting useless one liners..

[mitchilin]

I got my copy of this by searching.There is a couple of links around to download it on kiwibiker.I got some shit from others for reposting it,but it really is worth reading."wink"I do not condne copywright infringment.

[Stromble]

I got my copy of this by searching.There is a couple of links around to download it on kiwibiker.I got some shit from others for reposting it,but it really is worth reading."wink"I do not condne copywright infringment.

Absolutely, sounds like it will be money well spent..

[mitchilin]

Absolutely, sounds like it will be money well spent..

If you get my drift...

[Goblin]

And some for you.. Dont waste your time posting useless one liners..Ya know the funny thing is.....He's RIGHT!!!:msn-wink:

[mitchilin]

Found it yet tsmj?If you haven't I can give you a soft copy.

[Stromble]

Ya know the funny thing is.....He's RIGHT!!!:msn-wink:

Yep, Strike 2...

[Stromble]

As far as gear goes, is this usually covered under contents?

[discotex]

Bumped over the grass for a bit, thought 'wtf', stopped and checked, then headed back on and continued around.

If I'd done that on a road with no safe runoff, I'd have been upside-down in a ditch, saying naughty words to myself.

Eternal vigilance is the key! Glad you're in one piece, tsmj.

:lol: grass at 50km/h is fun eh. Mine was turn 14 when I was surprised by my pegs touching down. Just fucked my line up enough I had to straighten up and go grass. Might have made it but I didn't want to risk hitting the edge of the track while still cranked over.

Target fixation and lack of trust in the bike/tyres/brakes is a bad combo. No better way to get past that than on the track where you can screw up and it's usually no biggie.

[Boob Johnson]

well yes and no.. I was refering to frosty's post about differences in tyres.

As for the yes if you read my post I said was user error but a better tyres would have given more confidence to lean it in more when they were running wide If running to wide a little trick is to tap the back break. It basically drops the bike further into the corner hence tightening your riding line. (for people reading DON'T stamp on the brake you will crash) I have done it once or twice but you need the confidence in yourself and tyres to do it. Personally seeing a newer rider go dirt riding in the ditch after not making a turn it sounds like it was as most suggested target fixation. Experienced riders still get it but they shut it off and react to the situation faster and hence probably come out of it ok. And these fast shifts in a sticky situation are helped by the tyres..... So after a long windedness thingy ma-jig in THIS situation better tyres could have with a bit of experience helped him get out of it. And different tyres DO have an effect on how your bike corners adn it's cornering capabilities....

Hope you're back on the road quick..
Thank goodness for someone else with a little common sense & a level head.

Frosty, a bit quick to shoot ya mouth off there mate.

[CookMySock]

I got to the point where I convinced myself I wasn't going to make the corner and started wondering where I was gonna land..

I did the exact same thing, twice.. Once I ended up in the gravel - slid to a stop in a cloud of dust.. nasty! and once WAY too quick in a 100k corner (entered 140k, out 120k). The first one was fixating and then getting a fright as you did, the second time was just not watching/thinking and way too quick.

My self-training has been ;

a. Learn to countersteer. I MUST have absolute control over my position on the road.
b. Slow Down!
c. Practice countersteering ALL the time until it's natural - even in a straight line.
d. Slow the fuck down!
e. Trust the bike and its tyres - modern bikes will scrape pegs no probs so you have a lot of lean left.
f. Approach my comfort-zone speed in corners rehearsing c. while remembering d. and e. (in that order) Stay in my half-lane - NO APEXING! DISCIPLINE! ACCURACY!
g. CAREFULLY add speed (5 clicks only) in corners that I know well, rehearsing in my mind c. before entering, and looking where I'm going.
h. Consolidate for another 1,000km's. No being a smartass.
i. Rinse and repeat from g. Don't forget h. !!

Now I'm up to weight shifting, a little apexing, and lots and lots and lots of h. and remembering to b. and d. and having a little fun ignoring b. and d. here and there - within reason.

Also I'm a newb so you should probably ignore everything I said, and listen to the experts.


DB

[carver]

Hey folks,

I bought a Kawasaki Versys last week and binned it 100Kmh on a bend in Waitoki last friday. Perfect dry sunny day, not a sharp bend, just one of those long sweepers, felt that I couldnt lean the bike long enough and drifted over the white line and caught the gravel.. Next thing I knew, I was upside down in the ditch with the bike up the embankment and a sore leg..

Damage:

Bike: Bent bars, scratched panels, little scuff on the rear wheel rim.

Me: Lost a few layers of skin, from road burns to right leg, no breaks, just lots of bruises, thank god for good gear.. apart from the jeans. Never again will I go out without my lower gear on. Weird as even when I nip out to the shops up the road, I always kit up from head to toe and the one day I didnt, this happens...!! ah well, lesson learned..

Not quite sure of what happened, been thinking it over for a few days now and replaying the events in my head. Only thing I can think of is that I got a little confident on the new bike quickly, though obviously not confident enough to drop the bike a little further into the corner once I started to drift..

Bike' been booked in for inspection, just need to ensure that there isnt any serious frame damage etc.. but seems to be cosmetic.

My helmet was scratched, mainly the visor went down the road, jacket torn, and half the carbon knuckles ground of my gloves..(hands absolutely fine - thanks to the guys at Motomail for making me spend on good gloves and helmet.!:niceone:) Though I think I will be switching the Cordura jacket to leather...

The bike has Shinko tyres which arent stock, I think this bike sells new with Bridgestone BT020's 160/60/17 back and 120/70/17 front.. though upon closer inspection, the rear Shinko is 170/60/17...

Without jumping to assumptions that this would be dangerous or have contributed to my bin, I am interested to know the thoughts on fitting oversized tyres to bikes? I know people do it to cars, but doesnt seem as risky when you have 4 wheels..

Any wisdom would be much appreciated..

unless your bike is fully decked, just bring yourself to lean it further and look where ya want to go

[Blackbox]

...when you should be (by instinct, through practicing good cornering technique over and over again), be continuing to look as far ahead through the corner as you can, leaning a bit more, and (if necessary) hanging off the inside a bit.


hey, just a question on your advice...

It seems to me that if you're into a corner, and already worried about the lean angle... how would you have time to move into a hanging off position? And, if you attempted that, wouldn't the extra movement upset the bike (suspension, throttle etc), and cause more problems than it would potentially solve, especially as you are already in a stressed state (so more likely to do things wrong, like roll off the throttle, or countersteer without realising it...)?

[CookMySock]

In MY OPINION ;


It seems to me that if you're into a corner, and already worried about the lean angle... You shouldn't be there. That is a severe and very dangerous lapse.. But since we are talking hypothetically, we'll move on.. :cool:


how would you have time to move into a hanging off position?You don't have any time at all.. So you the best thing to do is just do it anyway - REAL FAST!! Just get your shoulders and head OUT THERE, PRONTO!, and push that inside bar forward, son, and do it NOW, and forget any fear that you have because at this point that fear is about to kill you. If you are really lucky you will carve a big deep arc and end back in your lane.. If you are unlucky, well, then you will be very unlucky.


And, if you attempted that, wouldn't the extra movement upset the bike (suspension, throttle etc), and cause more problems than it would potentially solve, especially as you are already in a stressed state (so more likely to do things wrong, like roll off the throttle, or countersteer without realising it...)?Well, if they are that far up shit creek, there is no such thing as making more mistakes - they are already fried so now we try the impossible - (seemingly to them).
If the rider did not have ANY briefing whatsoever on this, then I would say they are screwed - they will simply not have the information to apply to the problem.
If the rider was not able to manipulate their emotional state as they so chose, then I would say they are also screwed since the brain loading here as you say will be extreme.

This happened to me once, and it was forget your fears and "do it or die.. do it RIGHT NOW SON, or meet your maker!" So I just did it.

Something like that anyway.

DB

[FruitLooPs]

Wow all the crap bout "those bad tyres" and not one word bout how he chopped off the gas moments before he started sliding. Yes thats right rule number one to twelve on cornering. Even if it is just 500 rpm its gotta stay on or you're going out to the edge of the grippy stuff.


Exactly, have to stay on mean or even increasing throttle or the turn radius will go massively wide. Pitty it feels likes the worst thing to do, but it really does work.

I recall my first time on the port hills, 25w headlights on the RG150 (i'd had for a week or two) following some friends who were more experienced at 10pm at night. Barely even knew about the powerband on the 2-stroke heh.

nearly came off several corners just coming in hot enough to scare myself (not very fast in hindsight) tensing up massively shutting the throttle fixating on the edge of the road which was rapidly approaching and barely making the corner on the edge of the tarmac past the outer white line.

I slowed down pretty quick and decided rather than keep up with them and bin to just stay rubberside down. I physically cannot go at any pace at night on the RG150 still, due to the lights not having enough distance or power to look through the corner at all - its all just darkness out there so you cant really direct the bike properly at speed - have to take it on tiptoes.

Always look through the corner, and use the gas to tighten the turn radius if you must. Or so I reckon. Also learn to fight off that automatic fight or flight tense reaction, it'll do you over one day.

Oh yeah, pretty obvious but never go thrashing through an area of unknown bends - gravel or just horribly sign posted decreasing radius corners can and have caught many a person out

[discotex]

Exactly, have to stay on mean or even increasing throttle or the turn radius will go massively wide. Pitty it feels likes the worst thing to do, but it really does work.


Yep Keith Code explains it pretty well in Twist of the Wrist vol 2.

Backing off the gas loads the front up and will make the bike stand up in a similar way to using the front brake does. Hence running wide.

[Stromble]

Yep Keith Code explains it pretty well in Twist of the Wrist vol 2.

Backing off the gas loads the front up and will make the bike stand up in a similar way to using the front brake does. Hence running wide.

Funny, im now laid in hospital with a copy of that very book...awesome read, cant wait to get back on the road...

[dipshit]

My self-training has been ;

a. Learn to coun....

....Also I'm a newb so you should probably ignore everything I said, and listen to the experts.


That was very good advice! Pushing your envelope occasionally a small bit at a time is good. It will help you to manage tricky situations you may end up in from time to time with less panic and more natural reaction.
But then slow the fuck down for the majority of your riding. This way you will be riding with far more capacity in reserve.

[dipshit]

Funny, im now laid in hospital with a copy of that very book...awesome read, cant wait to get back on the road...

Just remember though that having bike handling skills is only half of it.

They are some other good books out there that also go into having the right attitude and road craft skills necessary for riding as well.

[CookMySock]

[...] have to stay on mean or even increasing throttle or the turn radius will go massively wide. Pitty it feels likes the worst thing to do, but it really does work.Damn thats hard to do.. :pinch: Lean it over harder, harder, haaaaaarder, haaaaaaaaaaarder, now power up again.. :pinch: eek!

DB

[CookMySock]

That was very good advice! Pushing your envelope occasionally a small bit at a time is good.Thank you. I have slightly hit a brick wall with my leaning and cornering, so I followed the mighty Delphinus around the east cape loop from Whakatane. My GOD what a trial by fire!! Anyways, my chicken strips have halved in size, and nads doubled in size. That is a KAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRNT of a road, wow.. 700km of hardcore!!

DB