A skating we will go

[Neon]

So I binned my bike on the way to work this morning. No serious injuries or damage, but I could use some help understanding what went wrong.

Scene: Albany - Turning right at roundabout from Bush Rd. into William Pickering Dr. 6.30am, dark, road wet from brief shower ten minutes earlier.

I ride this way every day, so after the rain was expecting the road to be slippery as a bastard. I slowed right down and entered the corner at steady speed of maybe 15kph. Halfway through, was looking through to exit (still leaning but mostly upright, starting to accelerate but ever so gently) and felt the front slide to the left. Next thing I was on the ground.

Attached is a photo looking to the exit, halfway through corner - you can see the scratch marks in the middle of the pic. :crybaby:

Other than a few bruises and a sore neck I'm fine. Felt a bit dazed from hitting my head though. Gear did it's job fine. Bike has bent bars, bent brake pedal and a few scratches, all superficial.

I can only deduce that it was one or more of:

a) I took a bad line through either the smooth tar patches, or oil and shit that gets deposited on that roundabout. It's well known for being bad in the wet

b) I was going too slow and the bike was destabilised

c) It was a localised gravitation anomaly (LGA - well documented by Vifferman)

d) I expected to crash and so did.

So, what could I have done differently? I was expecting it to be slippery and so was being ultra careful, but binned anyway.

Feedback appreciated...

:(

[Taz]

Bummer dude.

[Ragingrob]

Damn that sucks al least you're OK. You didn't touch the front brake at all?

[mowgli]

You mention that you were leaning but mostly upright. The roundabout in the picture doesn't look very tight so at 15kph I wouldn't expect much lean at all. Where would you say you body weight was?

Reason I ask is that I had some interesting slow speed cornering incidents (in the dry) when I was leaning the bike but semi-countering by (wrongly) moving my body weight out. Net result was that it felt less stable so I've consciously made a point of not doing that any more.

On a wet road just after rain my experience might have been like yours.

[Neon]

Damn that sucks al least you're OK. You didn't touch the front brake at all?

Nope, I was nowhere near the brakes!

[Ixion]

OK. Firstly, and most importantly , congratulations on a VERY good attitude. Sometimes, shit happens,. But a rider who accepts that a BadThing (tm) happened , and maybe he can figure out what and prevent it happening again, has a long riding career ahead of him. Well done!

Now , as to what happened. Very very hard to say.. But assuming you didn't use the front brake (can't see why you would), then (a) that's a shit of a roundabout , and after light rain it'll will be (as you say) greasy and oily (b) if I remember it correctly, is it not off camber ? (doesn't show in the pic, but it probably wouldn't); (c) at 15kph I doubt you would have exceeded the traction budget, even accelerating gently on a greasy surface.

I suspect you were at the transition point between counter steering (like normal riding) and tiller steering (what you do when going really slowly). maybe you tried (without realising it) to tiller steer around the corner, whilst still a bit leaned over, and on a slippery off camber.

Slow speed steering on a slippery surface has somewhat different rules to oridnary steering . Riding on wet clay is a good way to explore this. Basically you want to do the exact reverse of the sports rider's technique - weight the outside peg, keep the bike upright , and steer with the handlebars. And ENORMOUSLY gentle with the throttle. I always go through that sort of corner completely on the overrun. Totally bad practice by ordinary standards , of course.

I suspect you mixed the techniques. I've seen this more than once , and it's a 'gotcha' for novices.

This is only my opinion , based on what are necessarily very limited facts. others may disagree, will certainly have other ideas. End of the day you may never really know what happened. But don't let it put you off. Odds are , it'll never happen again.

[Neon]

You mention that you were leaning but mostly upright. The roundabout in the picture doesn't look very tight so at 15kph I wouldn't expect much lean at all. Where would you say you body weight was?


It's possible that my weight was slightly off to the right, so yes this could have been a contributing factor. Maybe I should have tried to keep my body more centred?

[aroberts]

If the front wheel slid out at that speed it would have to be oil or crap on the road I would think.

[slick-kev]

could b the paintd lines on the road

[Neon]

OK. Firstly, and most importantly , congratulations on a VERY good attitude. Sometimes, shit happens,. But a rider who accepts that a BadThing (tm) happened , and maybe he can figure out what and prevent it happening again, has a long riding career ahead of him. Well done!
Thanks Ixion, I am certainly not going to let this put me off!



I suspect you were at the transition point between counter steering (like normal riding) and tiller steering (what you do when going really slowly). maybe you tried (without realising it) to tiller steer around the corner, whilst still a bit leaned over, and on a slippery off camber.


This sounds plausible. I have a vague recollecion of direct steering momentarily just before traction was compromised, so you could well be right.

[Neon]

could b the paintd lines on the road

If you look at the photo, there are no lines anywhere near where the front washed out. For obvious reasons I avoid lines like the plague in the wet, and even in the dry I'll take another line if I can.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Neon]

If the front wheel slid out at that speed it would have to be oil or crap on the road I would think.

Yes, I'm certain that this was a contributing factor. What pisses me off is that I was expecting it to be slippery and was compensating, but lost it anyway! :angry2:

[Ixion]

An oily surface , beyond any doubt, contributed to the off. But , if it were ONLY a slippery surface, given that you had begun to accelerate, the traction loss would have shown up at the rear wheel, not the front. It was something you did with the steering, for my money.

[FJRider]

I would say you were coasting through the roundabout, letting gravity and momentum do its thing. Little (no) weight/down force on the front wheel (bugger all grip in the wet) said wheel lets go. Slow motion to the deck. Then again ...1001 (other) things, Get a bigger/heavier bike (with insurance)

[Neon]

An oily surface , beyond any doubt, contributed to the off. But , if it were ONLY a slippery surface, given that you had begun to accelerate, the traction loss would have shown up at the rear wheel, not the front. It was something you did with the steering, for my money.

Agreed. My challenge now will be to practice my low speed cornering and try to get it smoother.

I already have a bit of a thing about turning right, and this hasn't helped :no:

Thanks everyone for your comments.

:niceone:

[BiK3RChiK]

Yes, I'm certain that this was a contributing factor. What pisses me off is that I was expecting it to be slippery and was compensating, but lost it anyway! :angry2:

I understand that if it has only rained a little then the road will be slippery as where fuel, oil, melted tar etc, etc are on it, until it has rained long and hard enough to wash the fuel and oil away.

When we left for town this morning, it was just beginning to rain and so I expected it to be slippery as hell! I wasn't disappointed! I have twice been through wet fuel on the road and even in the dry (the fuel just being spilt) it is slippery as.

If you take this roundabout regularly as you state, I'd keep an eye out for spills during the dry, and make a mental note to avoid that line in the future when it rains.

M

[BiK3RChiK]

Agreed. My challenge now will be to practice my low speed cornering and try to get it smoother.

I already have a bit of a thing about turning right, and this hasn't helped :no:

Thanks everyone for your comments.

:niceone:

Hmmm... the road code says that the turn right on roundabouts or off-camber corners require the most concentration/care. So it might be a mental block for you to break through...

Just a thought, and not in any way saying I'm any expert or anything! My learning curve is very steep..

M

[Caladbolg]

I binned today aswell... went for a ride at 6.30 ended up taking a wrong turn which ended up being a gravel road.. so as im turning around im not paying much attention and i get to the middle of the road where all the gravel builds into a mound.. and boomfa! the next thing i know im standing beside my poor bike while it has a sleep on the gravel :doh: broke the right side rear-set off the mounts so it wasnt much fun on the way home using the exhaust as a footpeg and not having a rear brake.. i never thought i used it much but i was missing it while going over dyers
pass.

Anybody have and ZXR rearsets for the right hand side?

[BiK3RChiK]

gravel and rain! Glad I only twitched the rear!

Heads up, guys... sorry for your bins!

M

[gijoe1313]

Poor liddle ol'hornet! :weep: Glad to hear you are okay and reflecting on the process ... if you need a hand getting it all purty again, drop me a PM ... I's luvvies liddle ol'hornets I does :love:

What sort of tyres are you using by the by?

[craneman]

yer mate Ive had a few offs in my time too,and I agree it could be something to do with a wet road and smooth patches,but in that case at the speed you recon you were going I would have thought the front end would have gone fi
rst ;ie handle bars gone to full lock and down you go.
I dont think your slow speed had anything to do with it. I also think you need to forget about Mr Vifferman
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last comment and Ithink the answer to that one is ride your bike.

[Nagash]

Could have sometime to do with the fact you weren't accelerating through the corner, (I realise it's a round-a-bout but with some clutch control it's still easy enough)

By just engine braking around the corner, by putting on the accelerator it may have kicked up a bit late (I don't know if th ebigger bikes do this but it's very common on 250's in my experiance). The jolt could have been enough to slide you out on the oily road surface, but as Ixion mentioned, the rear wheel would of probably slid but given the circumstances its possible the front would of slipped.

Hope you manage to sort out your bike, you too Calad. Every time i've binned (only ever binned once where it was major) I was always more concerned with me bike than myself.. wounds heal for free. Bikes don't..

[Neon]

Could have sometime to do with the fact you weren't accelerating through the corner, (I realise it's a round-a-bout but with some clutch control it's still easy enough)

By just engine braking around the corner, by putting on the accelerator it may have kicked up a bit late (I don't know if th ebigger bikes do this but it's very common on 250's in my experiance). The jolt could have been enough to slide you out on the oily road surface, but as Ixion mentioned, the rear wheel would of probably slid but given the circumstances its possible the front would of slipped.

I wasn't engine braking. If anything I was holding my speed or accelerating slightly, as I didn't want to either unload or overload the front wheel through what I knew would be a slippery patch.

I reckon Ixion was right. I think I made what was probably an excessive (given the conditions) direct steer input at the wrong moment, and that was enough to unsettle the front. :Oops:

[howdamnhard]

Hi Andy R,had the same happen to me,still don't quite know exactly why.As BIK3RCHik said,a little bit of rain is worse than a lot as it lifts all the oil out of the road surface but doesn't wash it away.I think Ixion is onto something with the transition between direct and countersteering.I now make a point of taking a different line( stay wide) in the wet to avoid the greasy spots .Also as Ixion said I wait the outside footpeg and keep bike more upright.So far I haven't binned since.Oh yes also replaced the crap chinese tyres the GN came with something better.Lousy cheap tyres are a false economy if you then have to spend heaps on fixing up your bike after you have binned it.Just get out there and practice.:scooter:

[howdamnhard]

Might pay to go along to the Wednesday night mentor training.Their a good bunch of experienced riders who volunteer their time to help new riders.They are out your way too.You never stop learning to ride better.:scooter:

[Neon]

Might pay to go along to the Wednesday night mentor training.Their a good bunch of experienced riders who volunteer their time to help new riders.They are out your way too.You never stop learning to ride better.:scooter:

Yeah I have been along a couple of times already and can't recommend it highly enough. Also booked to do RRRS on Sunday but not sure I'm gonna make it now :(

[howdamnhard]

The RRRS course is really awesome and well worth it.It will really boost your confidence and improve your skills.Why don't you think you won't make it,is your bike busted.



Yeah I have been along a couple of times already and can't recommend it highly enough. Also booked to do RRRS on Sunday but not sure I'm gonna make it now :(

[The Pastor]

bummer dude. I had a LGA incident a few weeks ago, nasty buggers they are!

[ital916]

I've learnt that you can't be scared of roundabout aye, you have to actually go through at an ok safe speed, not sper slow otherwise wierd stuff happens lol, I don't know if it's a bad habit but I tend to shift my weight a lot on any corner, always safer to have the bike more upright. I must look like a right wanker going through roundabout to car drivers but I feel I have more control over the bike that way...less lean, more weight shifted and a nice safe *but not a silly super slow speed* speed, unless it's peak hour, then go through it at 15kph.

[Neon]

The RRRS course is really awesome and well worth it.It will really boost your confidence and improve your skills.Why don't you think you won't make it,is your bike busted.

Well, it's rideable but the brake pedal is bent in at 90 degrees and the handlebars look a bit dodgy. Feeling a bit sore today too :rolleyes: So might postpone to next month.