KB Insurance (aka the bin fund)

[madbikeboy]

Been thinking about this one for a while.

If we set up a fund where KB's could donate a little money - and I'm talking like $10 each - we could have a small pool of money as a hardship grant of sorts.

This wouldn't be for people like me who can afford insurance (just), it would be for newbies and people who use their bikes to commute and have mishaps.

Now, a lot of people on this site already donate time, and most of us don't have money (we're bikers, not rich asshole property developers and lawyers), but there are often posts in here where I wish I had the ability to help out, just a little.

We'd need to determine criteria - but does this idea have legs or what?

[Mikkel]

We'd need to determine criteria - but does this idea have legs or what?

It does have legs...

BUT - setting up a proper fund with all the legalities that it involves is not a small deal AFAIK.

And no, setting it up in any other way will end in tears, bitterness and enmity.

I think the way it is done on KB at the moment is a good way of doing it - where someone just start fundraising of their own initiative.

[madbikeboy]

Yeah, I see your point, and I agree - there will be tears downstream if a charter and guidelines aren't set up in advance. Because it would be voluntary, I think the rules could be quite relaxed.

I would nominate a board of five mods, they would need to have a quorum to allow money to be passed across.

The criteria:
- honest mistake, not a race event etc
- the binner would need to be desperately in need of their bike for work/uni/school
- the money would be used specifically to aid their circumstance (not for new toys, but for real stuff)

...

I'd recommend the following people for a start:
Frosty, umm...

[boostin]

I am studying law and property, guess that counts me out.

[mowgli]

Perhaps you'd be better starting with a poll to see how many of the nearly 10000 members would contribute. I suspect most, like me would not - sorry.

[DougieNZ]

Yeah, I see your point, and I agree - there will be tears downstream if a charter and guidelines aren't set up in advance. Because it would be voluntary, I think the rules could be quite relaxed.

I would nominate a board of five mods, they would need to have a quorum to allow money to be passed across.

The criteria:
- honest mistake, not a race event etc
- the binner would need to be desperately in need of their bike for work/uni/school
- the money would be used specifically to aid their circumstance (not for new toys, but for real stuff)

...

I'd recommend the following people for a start:
Frosty, umm...

I have 3 more:

1. The binner would have to be riding legally in the terms of his/her licence
2. The binner would have to have been riding in a legal manner... i.e. not speeding.
3. The binner would have to supply a good reason why they didn't take personal responsibility and have insurance...

I don't know that we should be encouraging people not to have insurance and/or ride legally because there was a "kiwibiker back up fund"?

Personally I would have no problem contributing for an excess payment, or repairs if it was more economical than paying the excess...

The administration and set up could be a complete nightmare. Maybe it might be better to have an appeal on a case by case basis.

But I believe that all appeals should involve full disclosure of the circumstances... especially if any illegality was involved.

[mowgli]

I don't know that we should be encouraging people not to have insurance and/or ride legally because there wass a "kiwibiker back up fund".

Very well put :niceone:

[Kittyhawk]

Not a good idea, too many criteria

Speed
Bike size
Licence class
Other motorists involved on the road.

Its what insurance is for anyway....It would turn friends against eachother..

How could you justify and allocate funds on a case by case basis?? Damage done to a 250cc bikes fairings at 50km/hr compared to a litre bike doing the same speed, huge difference in value etc...

Good idea, but I like the idea of if a biker in need/has serious injury etc we do our own fundraising.

[sidecar bob]

Im over propping up broken arsed lazy people that dont understand even the basics of living in society.
My bikes are safe thanks, Count me out.
It would be the usual system, where the contributors are never the beneficaries.
P.S Youre asshole property developers are the same people who have insurance & pay the taxes that keep all the useless bastards on their various benefits, So dont be too harsh on them.
Id also be very grateful if someone could explain what makes the property developers, Lawyers etc assholes.

[Disco Dan]

I like the idea... in principle however has others have said the realitiy not to mentiont the lagalities and fairness would be too much to make it worthwhile.

I would want those people that dart around stunting all the time not allowed access to it for example.

People that openly boast about silly/stunts/overtakes etc etc then all of a sudden they bin and claim they were doing everything legal? How would we know?? Would a witness be needed for each claim? ...then even that person would most likely be a 'mate' and go along with the story anyway!

Sorry too many variables - I would not contribute.

Surely it is better to put $10 asisde for yourself each pay for your own 'insurance' or even better, actually go and get insurance.

[imdying]

What happens if I bin my bike at a race track, then say someone else was riding, then defraud you guys? Would that be the sort of person that could join this scheme? How would you feel if you were ripped off like that?

[Kittyhawk]

Or what if you have been putting into the scheme and never made a claim?

Would you get fully refunded when you decide to pull out?

[doc]

Been thinking about this one for a while.

If we set up a fund where KB's could donate a little money - and I'm talking like $10 each - we could have a small pool of money as a hardship grant of sorts.

This wouldn't be for people like me who can afford insurance (just), it would be for newbies and people who use their bikes to commute and have mishaps.

Now, a lot of people on this site already donate time, and most of us don't have money (we're bikers, not rich asshole property developers and lawyers), but there are often posts in here where I wish I had the ability to help out, just a little.

We'd need to determine criteria - but does this idea have legs or what?

Nice idea, never work. Sorry just my 2c

[Coyote]

Sounds good, in theory. Communism is good, in theory.

[Zuki Bandit]

Good idea, but could get messy.

[The Pastor]

Sounds like a good idea, i already have set up a bank account, pm me and i'll give you the number to start donating to the kb fund.

[cowboyz]

really bad idea that will never work. $10 a week with a bin every other day being posted up.

[boomer]

Id also be very grateful if someone could explain what makes the property developers, Lawyers etc assholes.

z^^ that goes a long way!

[madbikeboy]

I agree with most of the sentiments here.

I pay tax, believe me when I have zero tolerance for bludgers (and I fucking hate the helen Nazi party state), and I have insurance as well (and it's expensive). And don't get me started on interest rates.

But.

If we had a fund that could provide a legitimate hardship case with a couple of hundred dollars, it would make a real difference if it were genuine.

Now a couple of thoughts for you all. There is no reason that we can't look at wholesaling insurance through KB, in a mutual society for bikers, and put profits back into funding safety and lobbying programmes for our benefit.

And if you think that couldn't be done?? AMI and AA insurance both started out that way. AMI = Allied Mutual Insurance was built on exactly that model...

I read so many posts where people hand wring and debate about safety - all I'm thinking is that if we as a community, started thinking a little bigger, we'd have more of a say about shit like:
Safety, policing, parking, road rules, insurance, lobbying...

My 2c.:done:

[madbikeboy]

I am studying law and property, guess that counts me out.

Your parents must be gutted. :innocent:

[madbikeboy]

Im over propping up broken arsed lazy people that dont understand even the basics of living in society.
My bikes are safe thanks, Count me out.
It would be the usual system, where the contributors are never the beneficaries.
P.S Youre asshole property developers are the same people who have insurance & pay the taxes that keep all the useless bastards on their various benefits, So dont be too harsh on them.
Id also be very grateful if someone could explain what makes the property developers, Lawyers etc assholes.

Property developers are such stand up people. Yep, leaky buildings, corporate shells, ripping off subbies...

And how much tax do you think the average property company or lawyer actually pays?

And before you think I'm sticking up for the bludgers, I'm not. I see little difference in a bludger feeding off the system whether they're on government funding or wearing a suit and working the system...

[Mikkel]

Your parents must be gutted. :innocent:

At least they won't be guttered since they've raised offspring that might be able to support them when they reach old age... ;)

[Soul.Trader]

we're bikers, not rich asshole property developers and lawyers

You should be a bit more careful with your words. If I've found anything since I've started riding, it's that bikes bring together people from ALL walks like life, and you're working pretty hard to alienate a large portion of riders. Have you ever met a lawyer or a property developer? If you had (which you clearly havent), you'd know they're very normal people like me and you.


And how much tax do you think the average property company or lawyer actually pays?

as an ACCOUNTANT who does the annual work for many of these types of people, I can confidently say they pay A LOT MORE TAX than yourself, buddy. Believe it or not, it's extremely difficult to legitimately evade your tax liability. I did the accounts for a gentleman on a salary (a PAYE payer, no business activities) who was paying $120,000 PER YEAR in tax. Do you think that's fair? He's also a good bastard by the way.

I might also add that property developers prop up rate payers so substantially, that if they weren't around, you wouldn't be able to handle your rates liability. Property developers get royally screwed by local government.

[ElCoyote]

[QUOTE=sidecar bob;
Id also be very grateful if someone could explain what makes the property developers, Lawyers etc assholes.[/QUOTE]

It's the difference between a dead dog and a lawyer, fleas leave a dead dog alone

[Swoop]

I suggested this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=55187&highlight=charity) some time ago.
Something that would be a donation and claimable on your yearly tax return.
I intended it to be for unfortunate folks who were in trouble.

[nivram]

It's common sense If you can't afford insurance don't ride, Insurance should be compulsory like having a current WOF and Rego.

It's people riding without insurance and smashing themselves up thats driving up ACC premiums, just my 2c worth.

[The Lone Rider]

If you can't afford insurance, don't get a fucking bike!!

I pay $9 a week, and it gets well cheaper than that for insurance

[Soul.Trader]

It's common sense If you can't afford insurance don't ride, Insurance should be compulsory like having a current WOF and Rego.

I happen to agree with this.


It's people riding without insurance and smashing themselves up thats driving up ACC premiums, just my 2c worth.

This, however, I cant see the logic in. Almost no one in NZ has private health/accident insurance, so our level of insurance has basically nothing to do with ACC.

[sidecar bob]

I happen to agree with this.



I suspect that we may have a bit in common.

[cowboyz]

oooh can I play devils advocate??

Think about this comment before you answer.

Simply by having insurance you are saying that you do not have faith in your ability to avoid an accident or keep your bike safe from being stolen.


Whos got the popcorn.

[Soul.Trader]

Nah, to me having insurance is saying "sometimes, shit happens, and I'd rather be prepared".

[madbikeboy]

At least they won't be guttered since they've raised offspring that might be able to support them when they reach old age... ;)

Bling for Mikkel!

[madbikeboy]

You should be a bit more careful with your words. If I've found anything since I've started riding, it's that bikes bring together people from ALL walks like life, and you're working pretty hard to alienate a large portion of riders. Have you ever met a lawyer or a property developer? If you had (which you clearly havent), you'd know they're very normal people like me and you.



as an ACCOUNTANT who does the annual work for many of these types of people, I can confidently say they pay A LOT MORE TAX than yourself, buddy. Believe it or not, it's extremely difficult to legitimately evade your tax liability. I did the accounts for a gentleman on a salary (a PAYE payer, no business activities) who was paying $120,000 PER YEAR in tax. Do you think that's fair? He's also a good bastard by the way.

I might also add that property developers prop up rate payers so substantially, that if they weren't around, you wouldn't be able to handle your rates liability. Property developers get royally screwed by local government.

Umm, last year I didn't pay that much tax. Bu the year before I paid more than $120k in tax. I also read law at Undergrad, and I saw the light before the madness took hold. I actually like a few lawyers. Oh, and I spent a couple of years fighting property developers over a leaky building. They're normal people, with a few bad seeds... Ahem.

While you're wiping away tears for the poor property developers, can we get back on point about a bin fund? :calm:

[Quasievil]

Nice idea in a fluffy world where we wear rose colored spectacles and give hugs to each other, but the idea has no legs and I doubt it will ever get of the ground.
If it does and Im proved wrong and there is a nice helping fund for a kb biker member who meets the "criteria" I will offer the medium average donation given to the cause as well.

After a few years on KB, I think this has been discussed on several occasions but to no avail.

buy insurance cover yourself, and if you cant afford insurance get of my road.

[Romeo]

<!--

Probably get some red rep from this, too bad I guess. The idea sounds nice, but I WOULDN'T want to be constantly bailing out idiots. That's right, IDIOTS. If you ride without insurance then you're a muppet.

-->I'd rather see any funds I donate go to either an injured rider (think Shaun Harris immediately after his IOM accident), into legislation/action to make riding safer (Cheese Cutters etc), or to the Westpac chopper.

Though, I'll admit that there have been a few instances in the past where KB'ers have been royally shafted by Insurance and courts. So there are grounds on that basis.

But at the end of the day, motorcycling ISN'T cheap, if you can't afford insurance ontop of that then you really shouldn't be riding.

[RantyDave]

Simply by having insurance you are saying that you do not have faith in your ability to avoid an accident or keep your bike safe from being stolen.
Or you could say that I don't have faith in Fulton Hogan's ability to sweep up the stones once they're done resurfacing; or that I don't have faith in aunt Dorothy's ability to not back out of her drive at a really inappropriate moment; or merely that I am willing to pay into a fund between myself and all the other hoons to share the cost when one of us *does* bin. I can even, under some sets of circumstances (being older, a chick, riding a classic bike or low k's) exclude myself from some groups and not have to put quite as much in the pot. But the point is that the bin fund exists already and is called the insurance industry.

There are occasions when KB gets together to pay for something/someone when we feel there are exceptional circumstances or they are just plain lucky bastards and I feel the current 'system' of doing this just whenever someone feels the need is plenty good enough. I also think it could grow old really fast so we need to be careful.

Dave

[Soul.Trader]

we're bikers, not rich asshole property developers and lawyers


Umm, last year I didn't pay that much tax. Bu the year before I paid more than $120k in tax.

Something tells me you're full of crap. You're not rich, you just pay $100,000+ tax?

[bucket boy]

[QUOTE=LLAMA SOLA;1480330]If you can't afford insurance, don't get a fucking bike!!

Who says if you dont have insurance you cant afford it some people like myself take the risk

[Soul.Trader]

As long as you dont "take a risk" right into the side of a new Mercedes, that's fine.

[bucket boy]

As long as you dont "take a risk" right into the side of a new Mercedes, that's fine.

And if i do it will be me paying for it

[RantyDave]

You're not rich, you just pay $100,000+ tax?
If he owns a business, even a small one, his tax bill could hit $120k easily. The question is whether or not you count it as being his tax bill...

Dave

[madbikeboy]

Something tells me you're full of crap. You're not rich, you just pay $100,000+ tax?

No, I'm not rich. But I've had a few years where I've done okay. I had a lifestyle change about a year ago where I got sick of the long hours and politics, and retired from being a GM. Don't make assumptions soletrader, I have met a lawyer or two, and I've met a property developer of two, and I can count.

You enjoy your lil' 250? I'll go home and hug my Gixer, My CBX1000, and my race bike - and then I'll look out and watch the waves crashing and contemplate where the bin fund went so wrong... :crybaby:

[YellowDog]

This sounds a bit like paying Union subs. I think this is an excellent idea.

The main issue I see is to having a panel of voters and set criteria to decide what is and what is not worthy of assistance.

[madbikeboy]

It's about defining what the money gets used for.

If JoeAverage has a bin, has insurance, but can't get to work because his bike is his only transport...

If JoeAverage has a crash, he's insured but his time off work means that his family doesn't eat...

It's not intended as a prize for binning - it's simply a hardship grant.

Anyhow, it seems that the idea doesn't have any legs after seeing the range of comments, and it has been tried before. So, instead of spending more time on an outcome that is predetermined, I'll go back to surfing for bike porn.

[Str8 Jacket]

I see exactly what you're trying to do. I dont think it would work but it is a good idea, however what about if someone who everyone really dislikes needs to call upon this "fund".... They contirbuted to it yeat most of the other contributors dont want them to get any $$. How would this work? Let's say a person that everyone loves bins there bike in a bad way but has no insurance and wasnt riding to their licence conditions but beacuse they are popular everyone wants them to get some $$. What about when someone lies to us and they dont have insurance or are not riding to their licence conditions but we give them $$, then someone finds out the truth..... etc etc.....
There are so many things to consider when doing someting like this, I think it may be more trouble than its worth.

[nodrog]

what if it was Skidmark?

[Str8 Jacket]

what if it was Skidmark?

What if he had contirbuted $$ to the fund as well...............

[nodrog]

What if he had contirbuted $$ to the fund as well...............

what if he hadnt ............................

[Str8 Jacket]

what if he hadnt ............................

Ah! Another problem with this fund thing. What if someone is unable to contribute to the fund cause they really dont have the $$ but then they crash. They meet all the criteria but would we be giving them any $$ cause they didnt contribute?.... hmm

[YellowDog]

KB would not be the place it is today without Skidmark.

We'd all want him not to have to sell hs computer and be able to still get on-line to grovel to KBers with mercyful gratitude.

[nodrog]

Ah! Another problem with this fund thing. What if someone is unable to contribute to the fund cause they really dont have the $$ but then they crash. They meet all the criteria but would we be giving them any $$ cause they didnt contribute?.... hmm

exactly, if people can afford to contribute to a fund they might never use, they may as well contribute to their own insurance.

this is KB, not WINZ

[Str8 Jacket]

this is KB, not WINZ

KB
ACC
DPB
IRD
KFC

Its all the same aint it?!

[nodrog]

KB
ACC
DPB
IRD
KFC

Its all the same aint it?!

you forgot OMC

[Strider]

It is doomed to fail.

[Crisis management]

Great sentiment madbikeboy, but doomed to failure unfortunately.
I believe in self responsibility and don't have any time for those that don't stand up for their own errors, I will willingly give assistance to someone that needs help (and I decide how they fill that criteria) but have no interest in a general fund / blanket save everyone.
The best thing we can do is teach those we come across how to act responsibly and solve their problems, give them skills, not money.

[YellowDog]

KB
ACC
DPB
IRD
KFC

Its all the same aint it?!
If KB introduced a nominal membership fee for this purpose, it could potentially go to this cause.

Did you say KFC ?

Almost lunch time then.

[Soul.Trader]

You enjoy your lil' 250? I'll go home and hug my Gixer, My CBX1000, and my race bike - and then I'll look out and watch the waves crashing and contemplate where the bin fund went so wrong... :crybaby:

Damn, if I knew the size of my penis was proportional to the size of my engine, I woulnd't have judged you in the first place.

PS: I have my own insurance.

PPS: I'm still pretty sure you're telling porkies. Anyone here met this guy IRL?

[tbone]

I think it's a good idea, but as what everyone else is saying - in theory it's good, but in the real world it just doesn't work.

Sort of like working for a mate - might be good for the first little while, but sooner or later the money aspect comes in and pits brother against brother type thing!

I think what happens now is awesome - if someone gets in a bind, they post a message on here and people try to help out. I think if I got stuck somewhere, I'd appreciate the help in non-monetery aspects - somewhere to crash for the night or maybe to get from point A to point B type thing.

[madbikeboy]

Damn, if I knew the size of my penis was proportional to the size of my engine, I woulnd't have judged you in the first place.

PS: I have my own insurance.

PPS: I'm still pretty sure you're telling porkies. Anyone here met this guy IRL?

I'm a myth, like Ghost Rider, only slower and less Swedish.

You're not coping well with this are you, penis size, porkies, your own insurance. Did you start riding as you hit that mid life crisis stage? Wanted to feel like you're a bit wild? Wife not giving you much loving anymore? Does your receptionist have a glazed look in her eyes as you stride in wearing your bad ass leathers? I'm willing to bet that you stand out as the cool funny accountant at your office. :jerry:

Is this the bit where you get really angry?:crybaby: Am I going to get sinbinned again? Hanging with the bad kids is actually kind of neat.

[madbikeboy]

Sole - I just read your profile, 22 year old Junior Accountant. First year out of uni huh? I misjudged you for a Born again. :niceone:

[jrandom]

Hmm. A not-for-profit motorcycle insurance collective, along the lines of the approach Southern Cross originally took to health insurance.

Could work, could work. Then again... why bother?

I'm not sure that the very high risk exposure from the small customer base and its propensity to throw its bikes down the road and track would would be overcome by whatever moderate savings on 'premiums' could be achieved over current policy offerings from the likes of Star and Swann via the not-for-profit approach.

[mstriumph]

...............we're bikers, not rich asshole property developers and lawyers..................

the two are not mutually-exclusive you know ..... :whistle:

[mstriumph]

I'm a myth, like Ghost Rider, only slower and less Swedish.

...........

a myth? .... i thought that was an unmarried gal with a lisp? :wari:



- sorry - don't know what came over me - sheesh :confused:

[sidecar bob]

I think what happens now is awesome - if someone gets in a bind, they post a message on here and people try to help out.

Oh cool!!! Scrivy & i havent binned or anything, But if people could chip in for our next season of racing, Or maybe we'll just blow it on piss or something, then that would be great.
Thanks in advance.
Bob.

[nodrog]

Oh cool!!! Scrivy & i havent binned or anything, But if people could chip in for our next season of racing, Or maybe we'll just blow it on piss or something, then that would be great.
Thanks in advance.
Bob.

ive got half a dozen beers you guys can put towards your pissup, but you have to share.

[sidecar bob]

ive got half a dozen beers you guys can put towards your pissup, but you have to share.

How about I spank YOU!!

[nodrog]

How about I spank YOU!!

is that going to cost me more beers?

[westie]

So beneficiaries? Extra beer fund?

[Finn]

Hmm. A not-for-profit motorcycle insurance collective, along the lines of the approach Southern Cross originally took to health insurance.

Originally being the operative word.

[shafty]

Not even a good idea, sorry, - the admin would kill the financial benefits and it would be a bloody nightmare and end in bitterness