Crash and Burn mentality [Archive]

Kickaha

22nd March 2008, 15:35

An extract for the April Kiwi rider on developing future champions

Although it had a rule in its Competition Rules allowing 13 year olds to compete in Miniature Road Racing events ( the so called "Bucket" class) there was no proper junior structure and almost no coaching. The class attracted aged riders who were happy to spend thousands of dollars on old, well thrashed motorcycles and it developed a "crash and burn" mentality that is still present

Yes the average age would be higher than most classes, happy to spend thousands? I fucking doubt it, most people I know race this class because of low cost, competitive and fun racing

My bike originally cost $500 and has had perhaps $2000 spent on it in 4 seasons of racing, an expensive bike in this class is $1000-1500 not "thousands"

crash and burn mentality? no one I know likes crashing or has the win it or bin it attitude, it hurts and it breaks shit that cost money

Sully60

22nd March 2008, 16:01

Lets burn Esdaile now!
:devil2:

Skunk

22nd March 2008, 19:35

Although it had a rule in its Competition Rules allowing 13 year olds to compete in Miniature Road Racing events ( the so called "Bucket" class) there was no proper junior structure and almost no coaching. The class attracted aged riders who were happy to spend thousands of dollars on old, well thrased motorcycles and it developed a "crash and burn" mentality that is still presentGood drugs Michael... which Fast Bikes video were you watching? :mad:

Dipstick.

98tls

22nd March 2008, 19:44

Seems strange indeed,am currently spending $ i dont have getting this old girl (that i paid $1500 for) trackworthy and besides pain my biggest worry when it gets to the track is binning it,doing damage, because it will take me so long to afford to fix the thing.

Kickaha

22nd March 2008, 21:43

Lets burn Esdaile now!
:devil2:

Slowly over a pile of broken Bucket parts:niceone:

speedpro

22nd March 2008, 21:58

I just wish journos would take the time to visit a meeting or two before getting the pencil out.

James Deuce

22nd March 2008, 22:17

Yeah, I read that and thought that didn't sound like the people I know poring care and attention into every scrap and freebie and mates rate part, time and services they can beg, borrow, or steal.

Skunk

22nd March 2008, 23:42

I just wish journos would take the time to visit a meeting or two before getting the pencil out.
Takes to long. Also the truth isn't all that sensational. It's better for all concerned that they just make it up as they go along.

Slingshot

23rd March 2008, 21:27

crash and burn mentality? no one I know likes crashing or has the win it or bin it attitude, it hurts and it breaks shit that cost money

I don't like crashing...but in my short bucket racing career to date I've done it a few times. My thinking was if I'm not crashing every now and then, I'm not pushing it hard enough. Then I read a quote: "to finish first, first you have to finish" which got me thinking.

For me, this season is going to be about developing skills and consistently getting points rather than pushing as hard as I can and always falling off (then blaming the skinny tyres :) )

speedpro

24th March 2008, 11:04

For me, this season is going to be about developing skills and consistently getting points rather than pushing as hard as I can and always falling off (then blaming the skinny tyres :) )

I won the Auckland champs one year like that. Never crashed, never broke, ALWAYS got points, never won a race. Annoyed a few people including me. It would have been nice to win at least one race. It came down to Jo Mead and me in the final race and I think something happened to his bike and noone else was close enough points-wise to beat me in the championship.

Doesn't hurt progress to crash now and again. Just make sure it happens when it doesn't really matter.

FROSTY

24th March 2008, 11:18

I read that article. Then went back after this thread and reread it.
It looks to me that he was making a point--and a pretty valid one at that
BUT the way he phrased it was far from the best.
Should have read something like - Formula 4 (Buckets racing) although generally a low cost class is still competative and not a place for a novice racer to start out.
I must say I'd refute that argument as well given my memory was that F4 was devided into A and B grade with B grade intended for novice riders of any age.
I think that in AUCKLAND bucket racing is the perfect place for a novice racer to start out BUT it needs someone like oyster to put the spade work in for the kids.
Why specifically auckland --Quite frankly In my opinion Pukie is not a place for a novice racer of any age to cut their teeth let alone a 13 year old

Skunk

24th March 2008, 13:59

We help any one who asks for help here. We even have a women's only class (but I suspect they'll be racing with everyone in no time). If someone turns up and just wants to try we'll let them (on their own if they want).

Best of all, advice is freely given. I get tips all the time (mostly 'get the fuck outta my way!' but some of it I listen to).

speedpro

24th March 2008, 19:14

I'm not so sure about F4 "not" being a place to start your racing career. Just a few names that "I" first saw at bucket racing - the Shirriffs, K Morgan, and G Cunningham, and there's plenty more.

It's also good from the point of view of, sometimes literally, rubbing shoulders with some absolutely top class riders, to name a few - D Charlott, Mr Morgan and Mr Cunningham, Olly Young, Dave Diprose, that Biddle girl and I seem to recall seeing that Briggs bloke out there once though that could be an old age and Woodstock thing. There's more, that's just the few I remember without trying too hard.

Kickaha

24th March 2008, 19:26

FROSTY

24th March 2008, 19:34

If ya read back on my advice re starting racing its been for years --go bucket racing.
But for a 13 year old that has never seen a racetrack jumping into a full on raceclass of any type has to be pretty daunting.
hey speedy--a germ of an idea--howsabout we find 3or 4 rg50's or nsr50's each and see what we can do for these dorkland kids

gav

24th March 2008, 21:50

Andy Bolwell, multiple F3 champ, prob still has a bucket?

chris

25th March 2008, 08:48

Michael Esdaile
c/o Kiwi Rider
PO Box 299
Kumeu

Write to him directly, I'm sure he'd love to hear your points of view.

Buddha#81

25th March 2008, 09:29

chris

25th March 2008, 09:47

We sould get him to join here so we can linch him pubicly.......Has anyone got the article? I'm keen on reading it myself so I can form my own opinion. I'd hate to think a jurno has written an article without reserch......like that never happens!
Hmmm, ask him his opinion of internet forums and those users who regularly frequent them.

Oh, and another thing. You'll need to improve your spelling and grammar before taking him on...

avgas

25th March 2008, 11:17

he obviously has never been to sand sprints. that is crash and burn - we still have a xs750 back at my dads with a nice knobbly on it. rest of the bike is stuffed.
buckets i feel a more like necrophilia - playing with things that once were dead. rather than buying a brand new bike and killing it.

avgas

25th March 2008, 11:19

howsabout we find 3or 4 rg50's or nsr50's each and see what we can do for these dorkland kids
good luck with that concept - last time i looked rg50's are not the cheapest thing on the planet. Infact i have seen RG150's cheaper.

Buddha#81

25th March 2008, 11:58

Oh, and another thing. You'll need to improve your spelling and grammar before taking him on...

Thanks Chris if I could spell, my grammar was ok and I could think clearly I'd be in a totally different occupation, after all school was where I ate my lunch. But thanks for pointing out my spelling is shite.......I don't wan't to "take him on". I'm interested what the guy has written about the sport I enjoy. I'd rather form my own opinion by having all the facts.

chris

25th March 2008, 12:05

Thanks Chris if I could spell, my grammar was ok and I could think clearly I'd be in a totally different occupation, after all school was where I ate my lunch. But thanks for pointing out my spelling is shite.......I don't wan't to "take him on". I'm interested what the guy has written about the sport I enjoy. I'd rather form my own opinion by having all the facts.
Buy a copy of KR, it's in there. I thought it was extremely well written and there's more to come in future issues. If anyone researches his facts, it's Mike. Writing in and questioning his article would be the way to go, so put your point of view forward after reading it.

I wasn't having a go at your spelling, rather that Mike would!

oyster

25th March 2008, 12:25

The context of his comment regarding the past, say 10 years ago when Bucket WAS crash and burn. If he hadn't said it still like this today, all would be fine. His mistake and I'm sure he'd be cool with that. If fact I KNOW he'd be thrilled to be proved wrong, that Buckets today by and large is on reliable, well ridden bikes with all the good safe principles of "full" road racing.

And I think too his main thought was the lack of structure to safely bring in new riders, particularly the young ones. But that is changing now, for sure.

As for his journalism, he impresses me he takes his time and gets good stuff out there. Not just quickly assembled "fluff" like most of them go for.

007XX

25th March 2008, 12:48

Having known Michael for a few years now, but knowing nothing about bucket racing, I would hate to comment. however, I'd say definitely have a chat to him directly. He's an awesome guy who is always ready to help, and has the knowledge to do so properly.

He is the kind of man who is smart enough to take constructive criticism, and who would be happy to debate an idea, and be glad to be proven wrong if it was the case.

And like Oyster said, Michael does research his topics very thoroughly as a habit, but is the first one to admit he can make mistakes.

Anyway, my 0.02 cent worth...

Sully60

25th March 2008, 12:59

He is the kind of man who is smart enough to take constructive criticism, and who would be happy to debate an idea, and be glad to be proven wrong if it was the case.

And like Oyster said, Michael does research his topics very thoroughly as a habit, but is the first one to admit he can make mistakes.

Anyway, my 0.02 cent worth...

Awwww,
We can' possibly burn him after that now can we?

, but knowing nothing about bucket racing, I would hate to comment.
Carefull there, I've seen your posts in a couple of bucket threads now, soon you'll be crawling around on he garage floor, swearing, looking for the last M6 nut you need to bolt on you new handmade exhaust bracket!:bleh:

I would really like to see the full article and the subsequent articles in the series. Esdaile's been around for a while now I'm sure he sees the value in starting racers young and bucket racing may not be the ideal but what other choices do we have?

I find the percieved "resistance" to miniature road racing frustrating at best. I mean we can't let 11 and 12 year olds race a 100kg bike with 15hp around a closed , flat carpark, but the same kid could get a 25+hp bike and go do big double jumps at a motocross what's with that?

enigma51

25th March 2008, 13:02

another great right up from kiwirider GO KIWIRIDER

Sully60

25th March 2008, 13:06

another great right up from kiwirider GO KIWIRIDER

I'm overcome by the sincerity of that post enigma51, it's good to know the media in this country are (deservedly) held in high regard.

007XX

25th March 2008, 13:27

Awwww,
We can' possibly burn him after that now can we?

:nya: Stop it you ...:girlfight: Besides, Michael is so cool, even fire turns to ice when he's around...so there!

Carefull there, I've seen your posts in a couple of bucket threads now, soon you'll be crawling around on he garage floor, swearing, looking for the last M6 nut you need to bolt on you new handmade exhaust bracket!:bleh:

Don't start with me...I can only sustain so many addictions ;)

I would really like to see the full article and the subsequent articles in the series. Esdaile's been around for a while now I'm sure he sees the value in starting racers young and bucket racing may not be the ideal but what other choices do we have?

Me thinks I'm going to have to call him and give him a ruck up on this...

I think that introducing younguns to any sport is fantastic...heck, my son would love to start his own little quad racing if we could afford it...bucket racing is brilliant, so give it another couple of years, and i'll introduce him to it.

enigma51

25th March 2008, 13:40

I'm overcome by the sincerity of that post enigma51, it's good to know the media in this country are (deservedly) held in high regard.

They make wanna go out and buy two copies every day.

I dont think they are the worst mag out there but i compare them to Superbike (UK) and even some of the aussies mags and there is nothing in there that realy is going to make me wanna buy it. Dave can and has come up with some good stories but even then the most he gets is a one pager ....... if he's lucky. Just look at his fatboy youtube vid Briliant even though i dont want one I still watched it from start to end.

Everthing is always a repeat of what someone else said never real balls on the line statements. I know its hard to be able to test ride bikes in NZ but still there is a market out there for not so new things to be ridden and commented on.

Its purely my opinion so those of you who still buy KR good on you for supporting a Kiwi company

Skunk

25th March 2008, 15:14

Hmmm, ask him his opinion of internet forums and those users who regularly frequent them.
Oh, and another thing. You'll need to improve your spelling and grammar before taking him on...Oh, so he's not bias in any way then? If you can't spell or are on an internet forum your opinion is worthless.

Buy a copy of KR, it's in there. I thought it was extremely well written and there's more to come in future issues. If anyone researches his facts, it's Mike. Writing in and questioning his article would be the way to go, so put your point of view forward after reading it.If that was well researched I'd hate to see a badly researched article. But then I'm only on an internet forum. Here's a misspelt wrod so he has grounds to ignore me completely.

Oh well, guess we F4 and F5 riders have a long way to go.

stanko

25th March 2008, 15:32

Maybe we should be thankfull for the article, any publicity is good publicity. Buckets dont get too much attention so this is good.
I thought under 14 yrs you had to race F5 not F4. That doesnt work out so well down here but Oysters junior training more than makes up for it.

Down here we are seeing a few Young Guns from street stock getting involved in buckets, its good for buckets and if it wasnt good for their racing I dont think they would bother.

My bucket isnt a ancient heap, its a 2001 FXR150 , half the field is FXR150 and that has made buckets into a reliable cost effective form of motorcycle racing. Buckets allows for virtually any modifications, so you can spend up if you want, still wont buy you a place on the podium, cos theres always a young guy with a 40kg advantage and no fear to contend with.

Number One

25th March 2008, 15:42

I think bucket racing rocks as a place to have a go at racing.

In my experience the people involved are more than happy to help you out with bike maintenance and advice and on the day letting you follow them around to learn lines.

Here in Welly we have learner runs, and everyone is really supportive of letting newbees out for a wee go. I've just instigated some ladies only races too cos some of us weren't so keen on footing it with the big bad boys (at least we weren't initially) and the organisers and other riders were really good about it.

Having been a tag along at the 'real serious grown up races' I can say the atmosphere at buckets is heaps better. A lot more encouraging, open and people are there to have fun..competition is important but people aren't all wrapt up in themselves. If we (and I know Sully will pipe up soon with WHEN we) were to get our boy into bike racing I'd certainly prefer him having a wee go at buckets to the serious racing and the motocross everytime!

I also recall that the lovely Mr Jay Lawrence got started in buckets - (might have been doing other things too not sure) but I remember him as a young un coming along and going around and around with the old fullas (sorry hun, skunk and all you other old fullas) at first they could even beat him! Remember those days old fullas?!!! That didn't last too long though - come a long way that lad :banana: GO JAY!!!

James Deuce

25th March 2008, 15:57

Rashika

25th March 2008, 16:06

So maybe Mike could rock on up to the BOB in June at Ruapuna, to see what Bucket racing or F4/F5 road racing or miniature road racing (or whatever we wanna call it now) is really like.
Not only will he get to see bucket racing in the flesh (so to speak), he can also see Oysters training in action with both Streetstock racing and rider training (in the breaks between racing) as part of the action.

Oh yeah and to stay on topic, generally I try not to crash and burn, and I certainly have not spent $1000's on my bucket :laugh:

Kickaha

25th March 2008, 17:45

And I think too his main thought was the lack of structure to safely bring in new riders, particularly the young ones. But that is changing now, for sure.

I think it has well and truly changed with the SS150 class, and I think perhaps in the past the so called perceived "crash and burn" mentality of the Buckets led to them being ignored by mainstream motorcycle clubs as a way to introduce young riders to road racing

Michael Esdaile
c/o Kiwi Rider
PO Box 299
Kumeu

Write to him directly, I'm sure he'd love to hear your points of view.

Real writing with a real pen, paper and envelopes? are you guys to poor to have email?

Buy a copy of KR, it's in there. I thought it was extremely well written and there's more to come in future issues. If anyone researches his facts, it's Mike. Writing in and questioning his article would be the way to go, so put your point of view forward after reading it.

Yes it was very well written and up unto that point I doubt I could fault anything, but that particular part of the article was inaccurate (apart from the aged bit) unless Buckets are very different in Auckland

Awwww,
We can' possibly burn him after that now can we?

Pretty sure we still can, it'd only take a couple of litres of gas and a lighter

Esdaile's been around for a while now I'm sure he sees the value in starting racers young and bucket racing may not be the ideal but what other choices do we have?

Minimoto would be the obvious class and then move up to Buckets or SS150 but while motocross seems to have a well defined entry level and class structure to accommodate the younger riders road racing in this country doesn't

So maybe Mike could rock on up to the BOB in June at Ruapuna, to see what Bucket racing or F4/F5 road racing or miniature road racing (or whatever we wanna call it now) is really like.

Good idea,I'll contribute towards his plane fare

chris

2nd April 2008, 08:28

I miss blithe arrogance from journalists.

No, hang on, I don't actually.

Big Dave did a lot of work for you.

Mike Esdaile just undid it.[/QUOTE]

'Opinions expressed in Kiwi Rider are not necessarily those of the editor or publisher blah blah blah'

Good grief, you lot are easier to wind up than a clock. If you have issues with Mike's article and want to challenge him, then write to Mike c/o KR. Or e-mail me and I'll pass them on.

F5 Dave

2nd April 2008, 09:45

Gee that sounds like fun, so we can get slandered by the 'I have the last word' response?

Or we could just not read the mag. I stopped subscribing a little while back. I had been subscribing as a habit started ironically as a prize subscription from a Bucket GP win.

But I got bored of it. Only Taylors infrequent articles had much interesting content for those with a tiny bit of technical interest. I think the last straw was when the Ed was doing a bunch of mods to the GasGas. Great, looks interesting. . . So what happened? He fitted some tyres & gave it back with bugger all report.

Pathetic! I can't respect a man like that. Lets all just feed the new bike sales market & ignore everyone else. yawn.

Buddha#81

2nd April 2008, 12:55

I was in Westport last week with work and went in search of a copy, 2 servo's, 2 supermarkets and a diary later no KR to be found. Plenty of "other" bike mags though. Can we have a copy of the article put up here?

Even if we disagree with the article would writing to the author make a whole lot of difference........If he is so hot on research get him down to the Battle of Buckets in June.