Braking

[James Deuce]

Go practice it this weekend.

Get a mate, find an empty carpark and go to town.

Make sure you have trailer backup to hand.

Had a bus change lanes this morning. He indicated as he whipped into the lane I occupied.

I locked the front.

I didn't fall off.

I held it as long as I dared and as the bars started to turn, backed off and held it just on the point before locking. The front tyre howled. It all happened in a fraction of the time it took to read this, but if you don't know what an incipient lockup feels like you'll fall off when you least want to.

I've been practicing lately when I've been able to make time. It pays off.

I'm no hero, all of you should be able to do this. Bet you'll lock the brakes on your car without hesitation.

[Trudes]

Good reminder to all Jim, thanks!

[Lissa]

Always a good idea to practice braking, no matter how long you have been riding or experienced you are. :niceone: Will be organising some time to do this soon.

[marioc]

good advice on my ride to work I have been practicing HARD stops with both brakes,rather than just the front like normal

[Coyote]

I think I did well to avoid smacking into a little girl that turned back to pick up something on the motorway. Not bad considering I had about 50m and a warped disk. Luckily for them they didn't get hit by the car that took this as an opportunity to pass me.

Had both wheels lick up on the Rimutakas on a wet day. Went sliding towards the hill, stop in time to not slam into it. This was a good opportunity for a car to tear past me too and hold me back until the end of the hill.

I'll resume stoppie practice once my brakes are straight.

[fizbin]

man i had the same thing happen to me!
God buses suck! good save though!
i was just luck the 3 cars behind me hit each other and not me!:Pokey:

[jrandom]

if you look down.. you will go down!!!

:niceone:

<img src="http://i31.tinypic.com/302an9c.jpg"/>

[McJim]

When doing emergency stops I don't even bother with the clutch.

These should be practiced weekly as well as swerving/hazard avoidance.

thanks for the reminder Jim2

[MyGSXF]

:niceone:
<img src="http://i31.tinypic.com/302an9c.jpg"/>

woops... :shutup:

[Badjelly]

When doing emergency stops I don't even bother with the clutch.

I've heard people say that it's important when doing an emergency stop to be in a position to take off again quickly. Eg, when the obstacle you were stopping for has moved on and there's someone else coming up fast in your mirror.

[McJim]

I've heard people say that it's important when doing an emergency stop to be in a position to take off again quickly. Eg, when you the obstacle you were stopping for has moved on and there's someone else coming up fast in your mirror.

Maybe so but the RRRS course I was on with BRONZ taught me to use engine braking so often you stop in a gear too high ro a fast take off anyway.

[MyGSXF]

When doing emergency stops I don't even bother with the clutch

The clutch is an important part of the process... :niceone:

Since you haven't got time to use 'engine braking' in an emergency stop.. it's about stopping as FAST as possible, without locking it up.. losing it.. or stalling. You won't be using the gears to stop you, like you do in a normal slowing down situation.

Also, if you have stopped for an emergency.. you need to be stopped in first gear, with the engine running, clutch in, checking the mirrors.. READY for a quick getaway, should any trouble be coming up behind you.. like another vehicle. IF you have stalled.. you are not ready to MOVE out of harms way.. FAST.. if required.. & you may end up in a worse predicament..:eek:

I would encourage people to TRY the technique posted earlier.. :yes: as it is the one taught by highly sought after professional riding instructors! :first:

Jen :rockon:

[Coyote]

Didn't think cops were too keen on people practising any manoeuvres in a car park.

[James Deuce]

Errrr, fuck the pigs?

[vifferman]

Errrr, fuck the pigs?
Burn them!

[jrandom]

... fuck the pigs?

Ewww.

<img src="http://i26.tinypic.com/ejsavn.jpg"/>


Burn them!

Mmmm.

<img src="http://www.bestpork.us/images/pork_roast.jpg"/>

[xwhatsit]

When doing emergency stops I don't even bother with the clutch.
I hear people say this, but I find that even with my gutless bike the engine seems to keep wanting to push the bike along unless I disengage the clutch and/or change down.

I'm certainly in no danger of locking the front, haha. Even in the wet I'd have some difficulty. Look for the gap!

[ManDownUnder]

A sillyy we exercise I was taught years ago seems to have stood me in good stead, and I highly recommend it.

Every time you come to a stop - see if you can come to a complete stop before you take your feet off the pegs. Ideally you should be able to ride up, brake to a stop, sit there for 1/2 a second then smoothly accelerate away again.

Do it while slow braking, and heavy braking... try it in a variety of situations. Really good for balance, co-ordinated use of controls and braking.... and you can do it every time you come to a halt.

[jrandom]

As a corollary to the main thrust of this thread, I'd like to make the point that generally speaking, motorcycles simply don't have the straight-line braking capabilities that cars do.

If you're in traffic and the four-wheeled vehicles around you start locking up their wheels, you probably won't be able to stop as quickly as them, no matter how good your skills are (particularly on a wet road).

While being able to control one's bike at the very extremes of braking performance is an essential skill to learn, it's also very important to maintain full situational awareness on the road and to remember that in many situations, you won't save your arse from a crash without swerving as well as (or instead of) braking.

The best reason to practice heavy braking is to make it just another component of one's instinctive bike-control repertoire so that it can be incorporated as part of an evasive maneuver.

Trackdays make for good training in this regard - you always end up hunting for your bike's traction limits while turning hard under heavy braking, so the handling skills that you pick up while doing laps are precisely what you need in emergency avoidance situations on the road.

[Maha]

if you look down.. you will go down!!!


Wahayyyyyyy!!!!! (sorry couldn't let that on go by....:devil2:)

I did read your entire post Jen and agree with every part of it, great explanation of 'the squeeze' as i call it.
Late last year I almost mounted a VTR1000 (aye oldguy?) anyway, story goes...we were on a rather large group ride, backroads down the line and some of us missed a turn off. John (on the VTR) came around me on my right and pulled in rather close braking. I was slowing but had to use 'the squeese' to the utter most and I dont mind admitting that I controlled this manouver like a master (yes im full of it...:rolleyes:) ..what i mean is, I grab the front brake and say to myself stop stop stop stop ect, each time squeezing just a little harder until the bike stops, gearing down as I slow. This all happened in about 5 seconds and I swear I reckon my front tyre went between the rear tyre and the right pipe on Johns VTR. Anne was on the back and she saw everything, over my shoulder, I was stopping that hard...but controlled, hope I can repeat it someone if needed.

[James Deuce]

As a corollary to the main thrust of this thread, I'd like to make the point that generally speaking, motorcycles simply don't have the straight-line braking capabilities that cars do.


Absolutely untrue and I'll find the Performance Bikes article that demolished this myth once and for all.

They used bikes from Valkyries to Blackbird's, with and without ABS, and they absolutely demolished a small hatch with ABS, traction control, and yaw control in terms of braking distance. Even the Valkyrie, and even in the wet. The more experienced testers were beating the ABS equipped bikes by metres.

There have been a couple of significant studies carried out in the UK using accelerometers on race bikes, and John Reynolds, multiple BSB champ was using almost exactly the same amount of braking force, wet & dry. He just took longer to apply that maximum force in the wet.

[James Deuce]

Trackdays make for good training in this regard - you always end up hunting for your bike's traction limits while turning hard under heavy braking, so the handling skills that you pick up while doing laps are precisely what you need in emergency avoidance situations on the road.

Have to disagree strongly with this statement. Brakes on a race track are not for stopping, they are for negative acceleration. You use your throttle to set your velocity (positive acceleration) and your brakes to set your corner entry speed. The dynamics of rapidly braking to a complete stop without screwing up like I did and locking the front tyre are utterly different to adjusting corner entry speed.

[jrandom]

The dynamics of rapidly braking to a complete stop without screwing up like I did and locking the front tyre are utterly different to adjusting corner entry speed.

:girlfight:

I dunno, eh, heading off the back straight into the chicane at Taupo with the front end fully compressed and wanting to skitter feels a lot like the times when a truck pulls over in front of me and I have to slow down quickly before scooting up one side of it.

[jrandom]

Absolutely untrue and I'll find the Performance Bikes article that demolished this myth once and for all.

You know, if I'm going to be comprehensively shown up as being full of shit, I quite like having it done in a way that makes bikes better than cars.

:2thumbsup

A link to that article would be great wiki material, actually.

[NZsarge]

They used bikes from Valkyries to Blackbird's, with and without ABS, and they absolutely demolished a small hatch with ABS, traction control, and yaw control in terms of braking distance. Even the Valkyrie, and even in the wet. The more experienced testers were beating the ABS equipped bikes by metres.

There have been a couple of significant studies carried out in the UK using accelerometers on race bikes, and John Reynolds, multiple BSB champ was using almost exactly the same amount of braking force, wet & dry. He just took longer to apply that maximum force in the wet.

Interesting, I'd like to see the put into practice on the road with your average Joe on the bike and the average Joe in a car, not every one is John Reynolds or Micheal Schuemacher for that matter.
The brakes on my bike I think are pretty good but i'd seriously hesitate to say it would brake as well as the Skyline GTS25t that I had. (sporty bike/sporty car) Just an instance, many varyables involved in these sorts of things.

[kiwifruit]

:girlfight:
skillZ learned from braking hard and turning on the track carry over into emergency traffic situation management on the road

absolutely

[James Deuce]

The only "skills" I've seen carried from trackdays to road riding are big giant fuck off accidents. The two are similar only in that you are riding a bike. If trackdays had traffic going the other way, driveways, kids, cows, and random mudslides they'd be a useful adjunct to road riding training.

Track days are fun. That is it. I really object to them being pushed as any way useful in helping with rider training.

I know what you are saying about the bike moving around, but if you aren't coming to a dead stop, or plotting and carrying an avoidance move in response to an event that happened without warning right NOW it isn't in any way a simulation.

[jrandom]

Track days are fun. That is it. I really object to them being pushed as any way useful in helping with rider training.

I absolutely disagree.

I'll never be able to prove it; you can't prove a negative, but I'd bet good money on the fact that there are people walking around out there in one piece who wouldn't be if a trackday hadn't given them the trust in their bike's cornering ability to get safely around an unexpectedly decreasing radius or sudden obstruction or bad surface on the road.

[SPman]

I absolutely disagree.

I'll never be able to prove it; you can't prove a negative, but I'd bet good money on the fact that there are people walking around out there in one piece who wouldn't be if a trackday hadn't given them the trust in their bike's cornering ability to get safely around an unexpectedly decreasing radius or sudden obstruction or bad surface on the road.

True - otherwise, I agree fully with Jim.
Although - I had learned all those things, before I went to a trackday. Trackdays just let me do them faster, without hitting an oncoming car!
Nothing beats training for the road, like riding on the road.

[jrandom]

True - otherwise, I agree fully with Jim.
Although - I had learned all those things, before I went to a trackday.

Yes; but for a new rider (like me) trackdays are an excellent way of accelerating that learning.

That said, the primary reason I go to trackdays is to make the edges of my tyres and the underside of my footpegs look used, pull rude gestures at my friends when I manage to ride around them, and get my knee down in front of professional photographers.

:2thumbsup

[inlinefour]

Go practice it this weekend.

Get a mate, find an empty carpark and go to town.

Make sure you have trailer backup to hand.

Had a bus change lanes this morning. He indicated as he whipped into the lane I occupied.

I locked the front.

I didn't fall off.

I held it as long as I dared and as the bars started to turn, backed off and held it just on the point before locking. The front tyre howled. It all happened in a fraction of the time it took to read this, but if you don't know what an incipient lockup feels like you'll fall off when you least want to.

I've been practicing lately when I've been able to make time. It pays off.

I'm no hero, all of you should be able to do this. Bet you'll lock the brakes on your car without hesitation.

Geeze Jim2, you have lost that bet allready. ABS is my friend and believe me, I have tried to lock them up...

[James Deuce]

I absolutely disagree.

I'll never be able to prove it; you can't prove a negative, but I'd bet good money on the fact that there are people walking around out there in one piece who wouldn't be if a trackday hadn't given them the trust in their bike's cornering ability to get safely around an unexpectedly decreasing radius or sudden obstruction or bad surface on the road.

There's no logic there at all. NZ is a hilly country, full of decreasing radius corners and no sight line. With the exception of the tit they call a hill at Pukekohe all of NZ's race tracks are so flat you can wave to your Mum on the other side of the track.

They are the same 7-16 (or so) corners over and over and you won't find corners of that width or profile anywhere in the country without using the whole road. Tracks are in no way analogous to roads except for being coated in tarmac.

Getting confident on the track with no intention of racing just produces overconfident riders who bin in spectacular fashion when surprised with the unexpected in the real world. Just because you can go around a corner on the road at 275km/hr indicated, doesn't mean you should. Unless the trackday is structured and focuses on specific road skills most people aren't learning anything except how to nearly come to a stop, wobble around a corner, and then nail the throttle to the stop. I rather suspect that the normal trackday hounds wouldn't attend a proper training day because it would interfere with their knee slider destruction.

To learn you need to understand what you are doing, and how that influenced the outcome. Then you should be actively engaging in why you have limits and how those limits affect your approach to riding in a particular way. Learning by osmosis doesn't work.

I'd bet the only people trackdays have saved are those who are comfortable with a high level of risk, and who push their envelope irrespective of the environment they are using.

[SPman]

That said, the primary reason I go to trackdays is to make the edges of my tyres and the underside of my footpegs look used, pull rude gestures at my friends when I manage to ride around them, and get my knee down in front of professional photographers.

:2thumbsup
Or in my case, to wear the toe sliders off my boots (I'm a lazy cornererererer) :rolleyes:
old habits...........

dying hard.......

etc etc........

[jrandom]

Or in my case, to wear the toe sliders off my boots (I'm a lazy cornererererer)

I have Sidi Evo Tepors. Waterproof touring boots, no toe sliders. So I have to get my tootsies up toot-sweet when the bike starts to tip, or it'll be socks on the tarmac in no time flat.

You shoulda seen DMNTD's boots by the end of the last MotoTT day - he can't bend his left leg up, so he just has to let it drag. He wore all the way through on one side and ended up scraping and blistering the skin on his foot.

Didn't slow him down, but.

I guess they don't call him DMNTD for no reason.

:crazy:

[Ixion]

I absolutely disagree.

I'll never be able to prove it; you can't prove a negative, but I'd bet good money on the fact that there are people walking around out there in one piece who wouldn't be if a trackday hadn't given them the trust in their bike's cornering ability to get safely around an unexpectedly decreasing radius or sudden obstruction or bad surface on the road.

But are they, perhaps, not outnumbered by those who have come off, because a trackday has given them confidence in their bike's cornering ability. Only to find, too late, that roads differ from tracks, in having bumps, oncoming traffic, cars parked on the far side of the blind corner etc.

I agree with Mr Jim2. The conditions at a race track differ so much from those of the public roads that I doubt any useful lessons can be carried from the former to the latter, and the overconfidence engendered will more than offset any technical proficiency acquired.

[Subike]

IMHO
the track teaches you how to go fast
the road teaches you how to say alive

[Trudes]

I don't normally try and get involved in conversations like this, but......
From a relative noob, someone who enjoys trackdays and road riding and is also a complete nanna, I would just like to say that when doing a trackday I ride the track like it's the road, I tend to stick to a line, not exceed about 140/150 on the straights (Manfeild here folks) so anyone who wants to can pass me safely there instead of in the inside of a corner and attack corners like they are corners on the road and not use the whole track, this could be why I will always be in the slow group and get told I'm slow as arse.
I'm there to improve my cornering and braking in an environment where if I fuck it up, I won't get run over by a truck, and also learn about my and my bike's capabilities.

[Mikkel]

I agree with Mr Jim2. The conditions at a race track differ so much from those of the public roads that I doubt any useful lessons can be carried from the former to the latter, and the overconfidence engendered will more than offset any technical proficiency acquired.

Excuse my insolence but I can not help but having to throw a comment in here.

IMHO both sentiments are true - but neither are the whole truth.

Sure, if you go riding on the public road like you can do on the track - and unfortunately some people do exactly that - you are likely to have a big spill sooner or later.

On the other hand - getting a feel for the utmost of your bikes capabilities will leave you with an untapped reserve when you are riding on the road. IF you ride sensibly of course. I'd say - never give 100% on the road unless your life is at stake... Leave some in reserve.

After having been to the track several times I have gotten to the point where I can push my bike to the limit and have become quite good at this knee-down stuff as well.
Mind you - when I ride on the public road under normal circumstances I don't hang off my bike at all. This is due to two reasons:

1. I then know I have a lot in reserve.
2. Most importantly it shifts my focus in a undesirable direction...

Just my 2 cents.

[jrandom]

Yeah, what Mikkel said.

Pros and cons to both sides of the argument.

I don't really mind, to be honest. It's not a subject I can grow particularly exercised over.

Anyone who hasn't done a trackday, I'd really encourage to give it a go, if only because it's about the most fun you'll ever have with your pants on.

And if folk like James Deuce and Ixion have ridden on the track and find that it isn't conducive to safer road riding for them, I respect their opinion.

:grouphug:

[James Deuce]

And if folk like James Deuce and Ixion have ridden on the track and find that it isn't conducive to safer road riding for them, I respect their opinion.

:grouphug:

Trackdays on an RG250 and RG400, buckets on an RG50 and a KH100 (one race each) Clubmans on a VFR400 with an F3 kit imported from Japan, and also an Rc30. Having said that I did my last trackday in 1991, and my last race in '92.

I've never found track work useful on the road. Bike setup and a totally different mental attitude (get the fuck out of my way, until Shaun Harris or a Cudby or a Latimer goes get the fuck out of way and shoulder charges you into the kitty litter) mean that the bikes felt radically different on the road compared to the track. IMO racers either make calm collected road riders or arrogant chargers, with nothing in between.

[McJim]

I do track days for serious fun and try to use OP (other people's) bikes where possible.

I ride my bike around coz it's a beautiful country we live in.

My bike is too gutless to be worth a fack on a track but is a great wee bike for the real world.

[Usarka]

I've never found track work useful on the road. Bike setup and a totally different mental attitude (get the fuck out of my way, until Shaun Harris or a Cudby or a Latimer goes get the fuck out of way and shoulder charges you into the kitty litter) .

I found most riders on my first track day (moto tt) to have a very considerate attitude.

i am concious of the possibility though that track day training encourages you to push harder on the road, but conversely it gives some skill / confidence if things do go titsup.

but i didnt do it for road training, i did it for an adrenaline fix. i still occasionally do the carpark brakes hitting stint though i havent for a while, thanks for the reminder j2 :2thumbsup

[James Deuce]

I found most riders on my first track day (moto tt) to have a very considerate attitude.



Back when I were a lad, most trackdays, with the exception of a "school" that Tony McMurdo ran were just bike setup and practice days for "proper" racers, and they didn't like us non-racers getting in the way. They felt themselves considerate if they gave us a decent learn and taught to stay out of the way of people who could ride. They also did not share information with lesser mortals.

Oh, and you're welcome.

I can even drag my own threads off topic.:shutup:

[jrandom]

Back when I were a lad, most trackdays, with the exception of a "school" that Tony McMurdo ran were just bike setup and practice days for "proper" racers, and they didn't like us non-racers getting in the way. They felt themselves considerate if they gave us a decent learn and taught to stay out of the way of people who could ride. They also did not share information with lesser mortals.

It's really not like that any more, you know.

I don't suppose there's any chance you'll make it up to Taupo on the Zed one of these days for a play on the track with us young 'uns, is there...

:(

[James Deuce]

James Deuce @ Track Day = :chase:

James Deuce after putting in one last "quick lap" = :doctor:

James Deuce after explaining to lovely wife about that ride that turned into a track day = :spanking:

Audience watching :spanking: = :jerry:

Audience for next several months when referring to James Deuce at track day = :Pokey: :banana:

[jrandom]

Sure, I'll take a day off work and see you there on Friday 16 May.

Excellent news!

We're not going to let you back out now, you know.

:cool:

[McJim]

Back when I were a lad, most trackdays, with the exception of a "school" that Tony McMurdo ran were just bike setup and practice days for "proper" racers, and they didn't like us non-racers getting in the way. They felt themselves considerate if they gave us a decent learn and taught to stay out of the way of people who could ride. They also did not share information with lesser mortals.
:

It's amazing how people with some ability or other look down on those that don't - I remember moving to a different town in Scotland when I was about 16 and being invited to go roller skating...which I had never done before...I was terrible and got bullied on the floor by better skaters. I don't know why they surmised that because I couldn't skate this somehow translated into being unable to kick the shit out of the bastards afterwards which I promptly did. They seemed surprise that someone who couldn't skate could kick their heads in.

Nearly fucked up some skinny little runts at a kiwitrack day last year at Pukekohe too but thought better of it.:angry2:

[jrandom]

<img src="http://i32.tinypic.com/e0n02s.gif"/>

<img src="http://i31.tinypic.com/2vcdnpv.jpg"/>

*giggle*

[Trudes]

That's getting close to the mental image I got, eh McJim sk8er boy!!

[James Deuce]

Ahh crap. Avril Lavigne ruined.

[McJim]

Och! Ah'm awa' in the huff.....grrrrrr :rofl:

[xwhatsit]

Absolutely untrue and I'll find the Performance Bikes article that demolished this myth once and for all.

They used bikes from Valkyries to Blackbird's, with and without ABS, and they absolutely demolished a small hatch with ABS, traction control, and yaw control in terms of braking distance. Even the Valkyrie, and even in the wet. The more experienced testers were beating the ABS equipped bikes by metres.

There have been a couple of significant studies carried out in the UK using accelerometers on race bikes, and John Reynolds, multiple BSB champ was using almost exactly the same amount of braking force, wet & dry. He just took longer to apply that maximum force in the wet.

Well, I see what you're saying and it might very well be true, but like JRandom and co., you're a little bit abstracted from the real world. There's a significant proportion of us riding around (especially commuters) on older bikes with crap brakes, like GN250s and GB500s and SRX400s and Superdreams. I don't think they'd be quite as good as a Blackbird or Valkyrie (cruisers supposedly quite good at stopping, long rake and fat tyres).

Secondly, even if you've got the braking horsepower, it requires quite a bit more skill to use it on a bike compared to in a car. Soccer mums can just mash the pedal, lock it up, whatever, and it'll still stop in a reasonable amount of time; but it requires a lot of practice and skill to use all the braking potential of a good bike. I appreciate that that's what you're saying -- learn to use it -- but for most of us (definitely myself) JRandom's advice regarding learning to dodge, rather than stop, is pertinent.

[James Deuce]

Well, I see what you're saying and it might very well be true, but like JRandom and co., you're a little bit abstracted from the real world. There's a significant proportion of us riding around (especially commuters) on older bikes with crap brakes, like GN250s and GB500s and SRX400s and Superdreams. I don't think they'd be quite as good as a Blackbird or Valkyrie (cruisers supposedly quite good at stopping, long rake and fat tyres).

Secondly, even if you've got the braking horsepower, it requires quite a bit more skill to use it on a bike compared to in a car. Soccer mums can just mash the pedal, lock it up, whatever, and it'll still stop in a reasonable amount of time; but it requires a lot of practice and skill to use all the braking potential of a good bike. I appreciate that that's what you're saying -- learn to use it -- but for most of us (definitely myself) JRandom's advice regarding learning to dodge, rather than stop, is pertinent.

Excuses!

Everyone sees Supercars being tested against Superbikes and the Ceramic/Carbon brakes absolutely thrashing the radial calipers and steel disks of a Superbike. That's abstracted from the real world.

Skill? You're already more skilled at handling a motorcycle than most people ever will be in a car. You shouldn't be learning to dodge or brake, you should be building a suite of skills that match the situation you find yourself in.

[xwhatsit]

I'm not against the learn-to-brake thing you're talking about. I think it's an excellent idea. I just thought I'd point out that for most commuters, what you said is not quite true just yet. Wait until you can pick up old GSR600s for $2000 on Trademe for commuting in a decade or so.

[Ocean1]

There's a significant proportion of us riding around (especially commuters) on older bikes with crap brakes, like GN250s and GB500s and SRX400s and Superdreams.

This interests me. The only bike I've spent much time on that positively couldn't lock the front wheel on dry tarmac was a BSA bushman. Everything else managed, with more or less lever pressure, to achieve something aproaching maximum braking potential of the front tyre.

In fact I believe some of the drum braked bikes delivered better fedback/feel than most of the later disk brake set-ups. Some faded, true, but in a one-off emergency brake they still pushed the limits of the tyres traction.

So, if your bike can't actually lock the front wheel with a reasonably desperate grab I'd probably get it fixed so it can. If so then discussions about braking "power", while relevent for some performance criteria, don't mean much when it comes to a single emergency event. Learn to use the brake up to the tyre's full potential.

Or else.

[Motu]

They used bikes from Valkyries to Blackbird's, with and without ABS, and they absolutely demolished a small hatch with ABS, traction control, and yaw control in terms of braking distance. Even the Valkyrie, and even in the wet. The more experienced testers were beating the ABS equipped bikes by metres.


As someone who does brake testing with a meter a dozen times a day - I often have trouble getting an ABS equipped car to get a pass reading,often several attempts to get 51%.Worse in the wet.The only advantage is heavy braking in a corner - an ABS car will actually stop very well full hard on the brakes in a wet corner....without ABS it'd be spinning down the road and down the bank.I've never ridden an ABS bike to know anything about them,but the corner test would be interesting....

[xwhatsit]

This interests me. The only bike I've spent much time on that positively couldn't lock the front wheel on dry tarmac was a BSA bushman. Everything else managed, with more or less lever pressure, to achieve something aproaching maximum braking potential of the front tyre.

In fact I believe some of the drum braked bikes delivered better fedback/feel than most of the later disk brake set-ups. Some faded, true, but in a one-off emergency brake they still pushed the limits of the tyres traction.

So, if your bike can't actually lock the front wheel with a reasonably desperate grab I'd probably get it fixed so it can. If so then discussions about braking "power", while relevent for some performance criteria, don't mean much when it comes to a single emergency event. Learn to use the brake up to the tyre's full potential.

Or else.

I can lock the front wheel, of course, if I just slam it on straight away like a ham-fisted fool with a hairy man-hand. That gives me carpal tunnel, though. But squeezing it on how you're supposed to, no, you won't be locking it. Caliper is shiny-clean and full of fresh pad-meat and rubber bits, about 6 months ago I think.

As for the drum brakes, hell fucking yes. I want SR400 TLS front-end on my RS. I never, ever want to play with hydraulics again for a start.

[Ixion]

This interests me. The only bike I've spent much time on that positively couldn't lock the front wheel on dry tarmac was a BSA bushman. Everything else managed, with more or less lever pressure, to achieve something aproaching maximum braking potential of the front tyre.



The Bushman was fairly late. But none of the Bantams would lock the front wheel on a good surface from any sort of speed.

Same for most of the early 4 5 and 6 inch SLS front brakes. Some of the later 7 inch could maybe manage it from lowish speeds.

A bike that gained a reputation for the front wheel locking up would not have sold, the front brake was universally distrusted.

EDIT: The TLS 8inch drums on late model bikes were far better brakes for non-racing use than the early Jap disc brakes.

[bell]

Anyway, as Jen was saying a few posts/pages back...


The Technique.

1) keep eyes UP on the horizon
2) keep bike upright & controlled
3) close the throttle
4) Apply FRONT brake progressively - squeeze
5) clutch in
6) Apply the rear brake progressively (to about half way, then forget about it)
7) Continue to focus & apply the front brake progressively until bike is completely stationary
8) down change through the gears just before coming to a holt (tap tap tap tap.. no throttle revs!)
9) stop in first gear, left foot down..
10) check mirrors & be ready to escape from possible dangers


The clutch is an important part of the process... :niceone:

I also recall the instructors teaching that another key reason to pull the clutch in when doing an emergency stop is this:

unless you've been tapping down through the gears you're likely to drop the bike when the rear suddenly locks as the bike stalls. You'll need to have your dancin' shoes on to get a foot out to stop the rather sudden weight transfer that's going to take place.

IIRC one of the RRRS people suggested that the stall speed of the bike was effectively higher than normal (ie. if you're still in 4th when you reach 11km/hr as opposed to being in 1st at 11km/hr)

That made complete sense in my head 60 seconds ago.

Completely irrelevant but important nonetheless: what time does the MotoGP start this weekend someone/anyone? Sky's website is utter shite and I've wasted 20 minutes trying to find out. TIA

[Mikkel]

It's really not like that any more, you know.

I don't suppose there's any chance you'll make it up to Taupo on the Zed one of these days for a play on the track with us young 'uns, is there...

That echoes my experiences trackside as well. The racers I've seen trackside have been happy to talk bullshit and bikes. And no worries about sharing the track either (you get used to being passed at high speeds very quickly when you're riding your ZXR250 together with Robbie Bugden :yes:).


It's amazing how people with some ability or other look down on those that don't

Well, I haven't had that from competent riders in my own age bracket. I have however had older experienced riders point out to me that I was doing stupid stuff without going into any detail - big fucking help, thank you!
Considering I stayed on my bike I can not possibly have done EVERYTHING wrong...


This interests me. The only bike I've spent much time on that positively couldn't lock the front wheel on dry tarmac was a BSA bushman. Everything else managed, with more or less lever pressure, to achieve something aproaching maximum braking potential of the front tyre.

In fact I believe some of the drum braked bikes delivered better fedback/feel than most of the later disk brake set-ups. Some faded, true, but in a one-off emergency brake they still pushed the limits of the tyres traction.

So, if your bike can't actually lock the front wheel with a reasonably desperate grab I'd probably get it fixed so it can. If so then discussions about braking "power", while relevent for some performance criteria, don't mean much when it comes to a single emergency event. Learn to use the brake up to the tyre's full potential.

Or else.

Hmmm, well it's not hard to lock up your front tyre if you don't allow the forward weight-transfer to take place. (Been there, done that - bought the new leathers...)

Depending upon your tyre compound, temperature can be critical.

Some tyres will have enough grip that on a dry road you'll make a somersault before they loose grip if you brake progressively...

[moT]

Emergency braking.. (notes given at a Roadsafe training course!! :yes:)

The objective is to stop as quickly & safely as possible.. using BOTH brakes & without locking the wheels, falling or stalling.


FRONT brake gives you about 75% of your braking power
REAR brake gives you about 25% of your braking power!!!!!


The order of application is: 1)Throttle off 2)front brake (squeeze) 3)clutch 4)rear brake 5) down gears

Control is lost as soon as wheel STOPS rolling.. so if you lock the wheel - release the brake & re-apply progressively.


One of the MOST important things is: to look UP & FORWARDS.. if you look down.. you will go down!!! (where ever you LOOK.. is where you will go!)

The Technique.

1) keep eyes UP on the horizon
2) keep bike upright & controlled
3) close the throttle
4) Apply FRONT brake progressively - squeeze
5) clutch in
6) Apply the rear brake progressively (to about half way, then forget about it)
7) Continue to focus & apply the front brake progressively until bike is completely stationary
8) down change through the gears just before coming to a holt (tap tap tap tap.. no throttle revs!)
9) stop in first gear, left foot down..
10) check mirrors & be ready to escape from possible dangers


Find a large carpark that is very quiet.. high school etc.. & PRACTICE your emergency stopping. Start of trying it at a very slow speed.. just to get used to the order you need to do things in. Then as you get more confident.. SLOWLY!!!! increase your speed!! get used to doing it again.. before you SLOWLY increase your speed again.. & keep going like that until you feel confident. PRACTICE where ever & when ever you can!


Check out www.roadsafe.co.nz

Hope this helps... Take care out there!! :ride:

Jen :rockon:

That is the biggest load of crap if your hard under brakes the last thing you want to touch is the rear brake. It will most likely make you come off the front brake can take 100% of the braking force of the bike this only applies to most sports bikes with fairly resonable tyres (note why these bikes can do stoppies and pressing the rear brake then wont slow the bike down faster) What you need to practice is front brake control, learn to position your weight so the center of gravity is as far back and as low as possible and squeese the front brake so thay 99% of the weight is on the front 1% for stability on the rear (the rear wheel is barely on the ground but enough to keep bike stable). the common mistake ppl make is brakeing eg 85% on the front and then 25% on the rear this causes the bike to start slideing and cause an accident (even though the rear is relativly easy to mannage a slide you would rather not be slideing at all)

[Mikkel]

I just have to point out that 85% + 25% = 110%. :lol:

Indeed if you brake like that you will have exceeded your limits and have caused a lock-up somewhere...

[swbarnett]

Maybe so but the RRRS course I was on with BRONZ taught me to use engine braking so often you stop in a gear too high ro a fast take off anyway.
Last time I had to stop fast the brakes alone wouldn't have been enough (it is only a GN). I added in engine braking by tapping down a gear and releasing the clutch repeatedly through the gears. As a result I got good engine braking and stopped in first.

[MyGSXF]

That is the biggest load of crap if your hard under brakes the last thing you want to touch is the rear brake. It will most likely make you come off the front brake can take 100% of the braking force of the bike this only applies to most sports bikes with fairly resonable tyres (note why these bikes can do stoppies and pressing the rear brake then wont slow the bike down faster) What you need to practice is front brake control, learn to position your weight so the center of gravity is as far back and as low as possible and squeese the front brake so thay 99% of the weight is on the front 1% for stability on the rear (the rear wheel is barely on the ground but enough to keep bike stable). the common mistake ppl make is brakeing eg 85% on the front and then 25% on the rear this causes the bike to start slideing and cause an accident (even though the rear is relativly easy to mannage a slide you would rather not be slideing at all)

I have practiced the method given by Roadsafe, many many many times.. using the 75% & 25% ratio.. the bike has not got in a slide, I have not had an accident, or dropped it practicing the technique. Neither did anyone else on all of the several Roadsafe courses I have done! :D

You are more than welcome to do it whichever way you want to. :rolleyes:

Me.. I prefer to follow the methods of highly trained, highly sought after, professional instructors thanks! :yes:

Jen :rockon:

[vifferman]

I just have to point out that 85% + 25% = 110%. :lol:


That's good maths, that is. You'll stop 10% faster than using only 75% of the front brake.

[swbarnett]

I just have to point out that 85% + 25% = 110%. :lol:

Indeed if you brake like that you will have exceeded your limits and have caused a lock-up somewhere...
I think that's what he meant. The extra 10% of braking power is not actually stopping you but causing a skid.

What he said may apply to full on sports bikes but for us folks on more sedate transport I think we're better using the fornt and rear.

[Usarka]

If the bikes upright and no weird variables then who cares if the back wheel is locked? it the back wheel is still on the deck then any extra friction/braking will help.

the only way you can be in a situation where the front is doing 100% of the available braking is when you are doing a stoppy and imho thats not the most efficient way to stop. or is it?

[Mikkel]

If the bikes upright and no weird variables then who cares if the back wheel is locked? it the back wheel is still on the deck then any extra friction/braking will help.

the only way you can be in a situation where the front is doing 100% of the available braking is when you are doing a stoppy and imho thats not the most efficient way to stop. or is it?

I'm not keen on starting another mechanics thread a late friday afternoon...

Suffice to say that a stoppie is not ideal due to conservation of rotational momentum (flipping forward).

Ideal is to keep the rear tyre on the road. Braking as much as possible with your front brake while keeping the rear down. If you have enough weight on the rear to apply some braking without locking it up (unlikely during hard braking on a sportsbike) - by all means use the rear, but don't lock it up.

[Okey Dokey]

Good advice; it's probably been a while since I actively practiced (ie 2 months) I thought I was pretty good about that sort of thing, but your post made me think about when was the last time I really concentrated on braking and I realised it had been a while. Thanks.

That little bit extra can make all the difference in the world, and I don't want to get complacent on the bike.

[CookMySock]

I am exceedingly wary approaching other vehicles that are moving slowly - they are usually VERY erratic.. sets my alarm bells off loud and clear.

Last night coming back from Rotorua, 9.30 pm ish, chasing a boy racer on some back road I notice his brake lights up ahead (he had some distance on me) I see that he is turning left into a vehicle entrance, giving way to opposing traffic also wanting to use the same vehicle entrance, with a left-turning vehicle waiting to depart said entrance, and me approaching at night on a wet road with pillion doing 140. Houston, we have a problem! MY PROBLEM! I hit the picks early and firmly, and slip through quietly off the brakes at about 70 km/hr, with everyone watching everyone like a hawk.. Whew! That could have been much worse!

Regain control of the situation by keeping speed within a reasonable differential - as the situation requires, and detecting this earlier rather than later.

edit: Braking practice is a good idea tho ;-)

DB

[zanebrown]

I was riding back to Puke from Thames when i had an emergency brake due to an unseen slow tracter taking up the road after the crest of a bridge. I hit the brakes and the back of the bike lifted off the ground and went out side ways-when she hit the ground i was very lucky not to get high sided as it grabbed into the road. Was a lucky outcome really. Braking is very important to be done correctly.