Are there any tree huggers out there?

[Balding Eagle]

I see that Air NZ is allowing you to ease your conscience by paying for carbon credits against your air fare.

Are there any riders in the Biking community that would be prepared to pay more for their petrol to similarly ease their conscience?

Personally I think it is absolute crap and it is amazing that the world is being steered by the politically unusual - not unlike what Hitler managed to do in Germany all those years ago. Don't try and convince me with facts; just tell me a good story.

While I agree that we shouldn't be wasteful and I am a bit of a conservationist myself (solar heating etc.), the hand wringing and finger pointing by the extreme socialists (otherwise called the Greens) is amazing.

Would I pay for carbon credits? Not f***ing likely.

Whatcha reckon?

[Gubb]

I'm not likely to either, but what's the harm in offering it to people that want to?

[EL fatso]

Its probably just a trial to see what kind of interest there is. I get the feeling that carbon credit/tax is going to become mandatory soon anyway, so Air NZ is just dipping their toes into the water to get a feel for how it will affect their passenger numbers (or something like that).

[Grub]

Actually, I'm expecting to receive carbon credits for not using a car.

[Tank]

Speaking as someone with a carbon footprint the size of Australia - who cares.

Im not paying more when there are 40 trillion (there about) Chinese burning coal at a rate faster than skidmark or katman gaining red reps.

We have to address the bigger issues first!

But Air New Zealand being the thieving bastards they are will probably keep 40% of the carbon fee as an admin fee. Anything to help the shareholder (and CEO bonus)

[mowgli]

The Green Party is scary.

Edit: Who f@#king voted for MMP? I sure as hell didn't

[Motu]

Edit: Who f@#king voted for MMP?

The voting public - but it was engineered behind the scenes by politicians through the media.

[MaxB]

The whole idea of carbon credits is flawed from the start, blunt instrument and all that. Air NZ don't do anything unless there are dollars in it. If they want to reduce their footprint try renewing their aging 737 fleet for a start.

[rainman]

Would I pay for carbon credits? Not f***ing likely.


OK, I'll bite. (Much though I expect this thread will devolve into the usual bullshit slinging match... I must be bored).

So are you:
a) in denial and don't believe in science you find personally inconvenient, or
b) sufficiently amoral so as not care about destroying my children's future (to pick on only one very very tiny aspect of the potential trouble ahead), or
c) presenting the "but all the other kids do it too, mom, and they're worse then me" defense - which didn't work when I was a kid, either, or
d) a troll from a well known right wing party trotting out anti-Green poison PR lines...?

Did I miss any?

I haven't even looked at the Air NZ announcement today, so can't comment on it. But I'd be delighted to hear your alternative solutions for saving the planet.

[Steam]

... not unlike what Hitler managed to do in Germany all those years ago. ...

Have you ever heard of Godwin's law? Look it up, and use not Hitler's name in vain again.



I am the biggest hippie tree-hugger on this site, and I'll duel tofu recipes with anyone who challenges me.
But you are right, the Air NZ thing is just a big marketing exercise, all the analysts agree it won't help.
Paying to offset carbon dioxide emissions can be done but Air NZ aren't even attempting to do it. You'll just end up paying for their PR.

If I could buy carbon neutral petrol I would do it.
I eat GE-fee vegetarian, locally grown and organic where I can.
But I'm the extreme case on this site, and indeed in society.
At the end of this year I am considering going to work on an organic farm for a year and seeing how low-impact I can live. Having a hot girlfriend who is also very interested in that helps.

[Headbanger]

Many years ago I destroyed 200 acres of Aussie forest with a 20T excavator, then burnt it all in huge fires.

It was freaking awesome, as far as the eye could see....Rolling hills covered in destroyed vegetation, and huge roaring fires with 40 foot flames pumping plumes of black smoke into the air.

Knocking over the trees was also a hard case, Every so often a koala would come tumbling down from high above and do a little bounce a couple of feet in front of my tracks.

So in answer to the initial question, No, I'm no tree bugger, But I enjoy a good fire.

[Steam]

Oh man, remember to tell that to your grandkids when you are old, they'll love you for it.

[Headbanger]

Oh man, remember to tell that to your grandkids when you are old, they'll love you for it.

Sure will.

And I'll take the issue at hand seriously when they ground the 20 million air planes currently flying around the globe.

I'm all for a society that ships by ship, and travels by train and motorcycles.

[mstriumph]

.........


We have to address the bigger issues first!...........
you mean those massive 4 wheel drive thingies?? :whistle:

[rainman]

But I'm the extreme case on this site, and indeed in society.


More's the pity. The world needs many, many more eco-nutbars! :cool:



And I'll take the issue at hand seriously when they ground the 20 million air planes currently flying around the globe.

Ah, so that's an option c) then? You seem to recognise the problem, at least to some extent "I'm all for a society that ships by ship, and travels by train and motorcycles". So how, do you think, is actively participating in the continuation and extension of the problem going to solve it?

You know, sometimes you just have to do what's right irrespective of what those around you are doing.

[Headbanger]

More's the pity. The world needs many, many more eco-nutbars! :cool:



Ah, so that's an option c) then? You seem to recognise the problem, at least to some extent "I'm all for a society that ships by ship, and travels by train and motorcycles". So how, do you think, is actively participating in the continuation and extension of the problem going to solve it?

You know, sometimes you just have to do what's right irrespective of what those around you are doing.

Nope, I don't have to all, No matter what you think.

Watch me not do it.

Point proven?

Big businesses taxing me for more profit, or me making sacrifices is not the solution, or even part of the solution. Don't delude yourself.

Certain industries need to die, Not increase their profit.

Ground airlines
Massive tax on cars
Halve fishing.
Shut down major pollutants. now, today, Pinpoint em, pull the plug, tell em to fuck off.
Massive investment in public transport, nationally,city to city.
Halt to disposable rubbish imported from China and elsewhere.

It won't happen because the world runs on money.

If the big players won't play ball then fuck em all. If they can kill monks I can use plastic bags.







Though, I refuse to use plastic bags.

[Finn]

Until the Green Party, Liarbour & MMP disappear, I will continue to do the following:

Tip used oil down the drain
Buy the largest petrol engined SUV's and fucken use them
Recycling? Forget about it
Use lots and lots of plastics bags
Generally abuse the environment

In the building where I work, there are a few academic morons. One of them bought one of those toxic timebomb hybrid cars. We pulled in at the same time and got out. He gave me this look of disapproval of my gas guzzling, scooter crunching SUV so I looked at his pathetic car and said, "Kinda counters out what you're trying to do eh?"

Fucking hippies.

[BiK3RChiK]

I'm all for the environment but I don't agree with the carbon credit thing. I think it's a PR exercise in 'I'm caring for the environment!' while still spewing poisons into the atmosphere at a great rate. Sounds like a load of BS to me! Actively doing things to REDUCE emissions gets my vote...

[MisterD]

Its probably just a trial to see what kind of interest there is. I get the feeling that carbon credit/tax is going to become mandatory soon anyway, so Air NZ is just dipping their toes into the water to get a feel for how it will affect their passenger numbers (or something like that).

More like they're following suit with other major airlines (BA started their scheme two years ago), just in case it turns out to be something people will make part of their buying decision....

For those of you with the "it's all window dressing, what's the f-ing point" POV, you will be happy to learn that a parlimentary select committee (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmenvaud/331/33102.htm) report found that in it's first year of operation BA's scheme planted enough trees to offset a massive 4 return transatlantic flights :clap::clap:

[ElCoyote]

OK, I'll bite. (Much though I expect this thread will devolve into the usual bullshit slinging match... I must be bored).

So are you:
a) in denial and don't believe in science you find personally inconvenient, or
b) sufficiently amoral so as not care about destroying my children's future (to pick on only one very very tiny aspect of the potential trouble ahead), or
c) presenting the "but all the other kids do it too, mom, and they're worse then me" defense - which didn't work when I was a kid, either, or
d) a troll from a well known right wing party trotting out anti-Green poison PR lines...?

Did I miss any?

I haven't even looked at the Air NZ announcement today, so can't comment on it. But I'd be delighted to hear your alternative solutions for saving the planet.


Is that you Helen?

[rainman]

Nope, I don't have to all, No matter what you think.

Watch me not do it.

Point proven?

You're picking on semantics (or perhaps just showing you have little moral fortitude). Fine oh pedantic one, maybe the better word is "ought" rather than "have to" but that doesn't suffciently convey my essential point that just because others are doing something wrong, doesn't make it right. Most of the grown-ups among us should have learned that in our teens, or thereabouts. (You are out of your teens, aren't you?)



Big businesses taxing me for more profit, or me making sacrifices is not the solution, or even part of the solution. Don't delude yourself.

Actually, I was looking for your solution, not commenting on Air NZ....



Ground airlines
Massive tax on cars
Halve fishing.
Shut down major pollutants. now, today, Pinpoint em, pull the plug, tell em to fuck off.
Massive investment in public transport, nationally,city to city.
Halt to disposable rubbish imported from China and elsewhere.

...which appears to be a dictatorship? With a "massive tax on cars"? But I thought big business taxing you for more profit was not even part of the solution? And there I was thinking you might just be another common-or-garden libertarian.

The most telling part of your post is "me making sacrifices is not the solution" - you're just another selfish git with no moral compass. At least you won't be lonely on this planet. (Although that dictatorship shit will make you unpopular with the right wingers....)

I like the massive investment in public transport, btw, and your earlier point about ships, trains and bikes. So where's the funding coming from if not taxes?


Until the Green Party, Liarbour & MMP disappear, I will continue to do the following:

Tip used oil down the drain
Buy the largest petrol engined SUV's and fucken use them
Recycling? Forget about it
Use lots and lots of plastics bags
Generally abuse the environment


What a man! Look, everyone, Finn has a big penis! (Or did I mis-spell "has"?)


Actively doing things to REDUCE emissions gets my vote...

Works for me. But how do you achieve this in a world populated by Finns and Headbangers?


Is that you Helen?

Classy. Hyuk. Hyuk.

[Deano]

I'm going to stop using my bike for 'leisure' riding too, only use it when absolutley necessary........YEAH RIGHT !

[vifferman]

Air NZ don't do anything unless there are dollars in it. If they want to reduce their footprint try renewing their aging 737 fleet for a start.
Actually, they're renewing their whole fleet, not just the 737s.

[Dodger]

Many years ago I destroyed 200 acres of Aussie forest with a 20T excavator, then burnt it all in huge fires.

It was freaking awesome, as far as the eye could see....Rolling hills covered in destroyed vegetation, and huge roaring fires with 40 foot flames pumping plumes of black smoke into the air.

Knocking over the trees was also a hard case, Every so often a koala would come tumbling down from high above and do a little bounce a couple of feet in front of my tracks.

So in answer to the initial question, No, I'm no tree bugger, But I enjoy a good fire.

Bling Bling! :clap:

[Finn]

Yip, you're pretty much wasting your time Rainman. For all the little insignificant effort you put into the green movement, there will always be people like me around who just don't fall for all this bullshit.

[Tank]

You know, sometimes you just have to do what's right irrespective of what those around you are doing.

Who says what they are doing is right? Or that they are even heading in the right decision?

All the treehugging eco weenies go buy a Pirus or other hybrid and say 'ohh look at me - Im good for the enviornment' - yet the cost to the enviornment is higher over the life of the car. (look it up well documented yadda, yadda).

1/2 the time its just jumping on the bandwagon. Hell if Air New Zealand care so much - what about dropping off 1/2 full flights, turning off all the lights on they fucken huge billboards they have, take the carbon credit hit themselves? Its all bullshit based around $$$$ - not being 'good' or 'right' - Its a piss arsed marketing ploy and I for one am sick of it.

Besides - big cars, big bikes and big trucks are cool.

Global warming - hell it gives me more warm sunny days in which to enjoy the bike - so its gotta be good to right?

[Pwalo]

Hey as long as it's a voluntary tax, I'm more than happy for those who feel they need to pay it to do so.

I certainly won't as I see no logic in paying for something that appears to have no logic, other than an hysterical need to 'do something'.

[merv]

Where's my credits (I'll take it in cash thanks) coz I go to work on the train?

[glice]

I'm doing my bit by riding a motorbike and I'm still waiting for my tax cuts because I do ride. the rego for a motorbike Is way to much, the acc levey is huge.
And its all this emissions crap that has killed the 2 banger. why do they worry about that so much when there are so many other things that could be banashed which would be much better for the planet.

[Swoop]

Carbon credits?
Fucking bullshit. All invented so a "certain few" can make a shit load of money.
The stupid thing is that people fall for this stuff. I wonder how their Nigerian friend with the millions of dollars to "give away - for a small deposit of course", is getting on?

Every so often a koala would come tumbling down from high above and do a little bounce a couple of feet in front of my tracks.
Ahh, the legendary "Drop Bear!"

[rainman]

Yip, you're pretty much wasting your time Rainman. For all the little insignificant effort you put into the green movement, there will always be people like me around who just don't fall for all this bullshit.

Refreshingly honest, Finn, but I don't think I'm wasting my time - at least some people out there have a shred of moral fibre.


Who says what they are doing is right? Or that they are even heading in the right decision?

...Its a piss arsed marketing ploy....


Yeah, I said up the top I wasn't commenting on the specifics of the AirNZ deal as I hadn't really looked at it, but now having done so I agree this is more a marketing ploy to keep ticket sales from negatively correlating with consumer conscience than a realistic solution.

And Priuses ain't a silver bullet, nor are biofuels etc. But my question stands, what is?

Either you embrace denial, or you should do something about it. I can't delude myself any more that human activities are having a unsustainable negative impact on the environment, and I have to be able to look my kids in the eye and tell them I'm doing the right thing for their future.



Besides - big cars, big bikes and big trucks are cool.

Most cars and trucks don't really float my boat, but I agree about the bikes. But as the song goes, you can't always get what you want...



Global warming - hell it gives me more warm sunny days in which to enjoy the bike - so its gotta be good to right?

Is that really your honest assessment of the risk, or just an excuse not to think about it? I recognise we can't be certain about the future impact, but that's risk management, right - you should have a plan B.

It's like heading into a corner at speed: if you don't push it too far up front and you keep watching for risks (gravel, diesel) you can take corrective action and get through the other side, albeit with some uncomfortable moments in the middle... or you could end up dead or damaged.

[Finn]

Refreshingly honest, Finn, but I don't think I'm wasting my time - at least some people out there have a shred of moral fibre.


Typical lefty. If people don't fall for their bullshit, they're accused of lacking moral fibre. Go sell your social conscience somewhere else fool.

[Pwalo]

Either you embrace denial, or you should do something about it. I can't delude myself any more that human activities are having a unsustainable negative impact on the environment, and I have to be able to look my kids in the eye and tell them I'm doing the right thing for their future.


What do you mean by an unsustainable impact on the enviroment? And does that mean that human activity is, of itself, bad? Doesn't this logically mean that we should be curtailing such activity? (Bit of a bummer if you're a human).

And do you want to deny your children the oportunities that you have enjoyed to date by proscribing what they can or can't do? What happens to them if you get it wrong?

Look I'm all in favour of using resources wisely, and looking for better (or alternate) ways of doing things, but I can't see that rushing headlong in any one direction is going to solve a problem that may not exist.

[rainman]

Typical lefty. If people don't fall for their bullshit, they're accused of lacking moral fibre. Go sell your social conscience somewhere else fool.

Hey I'd be quite happy to debate your position with you, but I haven't seen anything from you so far except base denial, and simplistic labelling. And don't you have a social conscience? If so, doesn't that make you a sociopath?

You could of course actually address some of the points in the debate above?

[Finn]

Hey I'd be quite happy to debate your position with you, but I haven't seen anything from you so far except base denial, and simplistic labelling. And don't you have a social conscience? If so, doesn't that make you a sociopath?

You could of course actually address some of the points in the debate above?

I used to have a social conscience but some prick stole it from my garage while he was on parole. I had it replaced under insurance but then your Government taxed it away from me.

There's nothing wrong with the environment. We're just over populated because of people like yourself with an over inflated social conscience. Just take a look at Africa. $1 a day - talk about ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. They should be handing out condoms, not fucking food.

[MisterD]

nor are biofuels etc.

I've just heard the refreshingly straight-talking Nick Smith on the radio about this...the biofuel bill that Heilen and co are trying to hammer through into law.

Get this - to ease their lefty consciences, and give themselves something to green-soundbite about at the election, they want to get this into law asap. The thing is, there will be no standards in place to measure the sustainability of the bio portion of the fuel, which means in all likelyhood Kiwis will be paying more to import Brazillian ethanol made from sugarcane grown in clear-felled former Amazon rainforest...yay, we're leading the world in hypocrisy and wooly thinking again. :argh:

[rainman]

What do you mean by an unsustainable impact on the enviroment? And does that mean that human activity is, of itself, bad? Doesn't this logically mean that we should be curtailing such activity? (Bit of a bummer if you're a human).

And do you want to deny your children the oportunities that you have enjoyed to date by proscribing what they can or can't do? What happens to them if you get it wrong?

Look I'm all in favour of using resources wisely, and looking for better (or alternate) ways of doing things, but I can't see that rushing headlong in any one direction is going to solve a problem that may not exist.

Wiki is your friend: "Sustainability is a characteristic of a process or state that can be maintained at a certain level indefinitely." (Yes, indefinitely is a high standard). The likelihood of us being able to continue to increase our CO2 and other GHG outputs indefinitely is, well, effectively zero. Ergo, it's not sustainable. But it's not an on/off switch - yes, all human (and animal) activity has an impact on the earth, but back in the day when there were fewer of us and we behaved differently ecosystems could recover and absorb the impact. Technology can help get more benefit for less impact, but many technologies go the other way. Like ICEs, unfortunately.

I'd like my kids to have a better life than mine. But one that has a more manageable environmental impact - smarter tech, not necessarily less of it. That's a big change and a big ask, though, given attitudes today. If I get it wrong, they lose, same is true for any course of action. This is the nature of time, and has always been so. We have large brains and so can try to predict the future based on sound reasoning and rational discovery (a.k.a. science). We don't always get it right, but I think it is incumbent on us to try. In fact, I think this is a sounder base for morality than any other.

Doing nothing is a choice. What if you get it wrong?

[Tank]

And Priuses ain't a silver bullet, nor are biofuels etc. But my question stands, what is?

I dont know. And whilst the US and China and the like dont give a fuck - nothing I or my family do will make a blind bit of difference.



Either you embrace denial, or you should do something about it. I can't delude myself any more that human activities are having a unsustainable negative impact on the environment, and I have to be able to look my kids in the eye and tell them I'm doing the right thing for their future.

I assume that you dont buy the same kids any presents etc that are made in China etc then? You can plant a tree for a kid, or sponsor a goat for some Afrians to eat - but at the end of the day the kids dont give a shit either - they want the playstation.




Most cars and trucks don't really float my boat, but I agree about the bikes. But as the song goes, you can't always get what you want...

But I CAN get what I want. And if I want a huge fuck off truck - who has the right to tell me that its wrong? And BTW - I have been talking to my wife about getting one.



Is that really your honest assessment of the risk, or just an excuse not to think about it? I recognise we can't be certain about the future impact, but that's risk management, right - you should have a plan B.

I do have a 'plan B' - When I brought my house - I got one on top of the hill -so when the water rises Im gonna be OK.


It's like heading into a corner at speed: if you don't push it too far up front and you keep watching for risks (gravel, diesel) you can take corrective action and get through the other side,


Sad but true - We might get thru, so will our kids and grandkids - but at some point a generation wont. The worlds too far gone, and its only getting worse faster and faster.

[Mikkel]

I'm pretty ambivalent when it comes down to the environmental issue...

1. How much of it is caused by industrialisation?
2. Is it too late to avoid catastrophe?
3. What's gonna happen when shit hits the fan?
4. Is sustainability even realistic for a human population of 6 billion on this planet?

Those are questions that are unable to be answered. Call me cynic if I don't believe that anything significant is going to change before we run out of petrol.

As for the world of tomorrow - I don't know... I just hope we don't run out of petrol before my time is up.

That said - it would be nice if people were better at reducing wasteful behaviour. E.g. NZ needs to understand that being a pacific island doesn't mean that insulating houses is a waste of time and money...

[rainman]

There's nothing wrong with the environment. We're just over populated...

Huh? Either we're all hunky dory or we're over-populated? Pick one.


...because of people like yourself with an over inflated social conscience. Just take a look at Africa. $1 a day - talk about ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. They should be handing out condoms, not fucking food.

I fail to see how my "over inflated social conscience" could cause overpopulation. And are you really saying the world is in a mess because there are too many brown people? Ewww.

Overpopulation is a big problem, but per capita impact is too. A given ecosystem can sustainably support a large number of people poorly, or a small number well. Imagine you and your tribe lived on an island and survived by eating the native pigs and local flora. You and yours are the predators, the pigs are prey. If you eat pork all day long, quicker than the little fuckers can reproduce, the pig population will collapse. If you keep going, pork for breakfast, lunch and dinner, they'll go locally extinct and you'll be up shit creek. If you eat a modest amount of pork and your tribe reproduces too rapidly, sooner or later the same outcome results. Total impact = average individual impact * number of individuals. Kindergarten maths.


The thing is, there will be no standards in place to measure the sustainability of the bio portion of the fuel, which means in all likelyhood Kiwis will be paying more to import Brazillian ethanol made from sugarcane grown in clear-felled former Amazon rainforest...yay, we're leading the world in hypocrisy and wooly thinking again. :argh:

Agree, biofuels are a convenient political football, and by no means a silver bullet.

[MisterD]

That said - it would be nice if people were better at reducing wasteful behaviour. E.g. NZ needs to understand that being a pacific island doesn't mean that insulating houses is a waste of time and money...

Now that would be a better use of gummint money - interest free loans or grants for people to better insulate their houses or install solar water heating, but no, that doesn't have all the lovely extra regulations to create that a useless carbon trading scheme does...

[Finn]

Watch this series knuckle head. Here's the first one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUuff3cnPBo

[Finn]

I fail to see how my "over inflated social conscience" could cause overpopulation. And are you really saying the world is in a mess because there are too many brown people? Ewww.

Again, typical lefty trying to turn my comments into racism. You're so transparent. I'm saying that the wrong type of people are breeding. If you live in the middle of Africa, don't have any food, water or shelter and you say to your wife, "Hey honey, lets have 12 kids" then effectively that's child abuse.

Just like here in NZ where your Government is offering money for kids. The lower socio economic people are breeding like rabbits placing a HUGE burden on core services.

Socialism always bites you on the arse.

[devnull]

What a shame that people are so naive that they buy into the global warming bullshit.

There's a big difference between supporting the idea of reducing pollution (a good idea), and supporting a political myth (global warming).

IPCC members have resigned in protest because of this politicisation of a flawed scientific theory. Common sense will tell you that if they can't predict what the weather will be next week, what hope does a computer model have of predicting years ahead?

Now that we're coming to the end of this sunspot cycle, and temperatures are falling, the new term is "climate change" instead of "global warming".

In the '70s, we were told we were entering an ice age....

Anyone find it odd that the Mars polar ice caps melted at the same rate as ours during this sunspot cycle? Was that due to secret manmade bases polluting the non-existant Martian atmosphere? Or is there a possibility that it was due to the cyclic activities if the sun?

I know what my money's on....

BTW, for those that really believe in the global warming stuff - who wants to buy a nice little bridge in Auck - has great harbour views :jerry:

[Pwalo]

Hey I'd be quite happy to debate your position with you, but I haven't seen anything from you so far except base denial, and simplistic labelling. And don't you have a social conscience? If so, doesn't that make you a sociopath?

You could of course actually address some of the points in the debate above?

I'm a bit confused. What debate are you talking about. You have basically said that anyone who does not agree with your view point is a 'denier'.

No one is denying that the climate changes. It has done so since the earth has existed. I'd merely like to understand what it is you think that we are denying, and what sort of evidence you are basing your position (ie that humans are responsible for climate change) on.

[Headbanger]

I'm a proud supporter of climate change, about time we had some good long summers.

I see pollution as a separate issue, worth addressing, but it aint got fuck all to do with my shit.


What bunch of fucking moronic shitheads killed off the 2-stroke engine?

[Ixion]

I used to have a social conscience but some prick stole it from my garage while he was on parole. I had it replaced under insurance but then your Government taxed it away from me.

There's nothing wrong with the environment. We're just over populated because of people like yourself with an over inflated social conscience. Just take a look at Africa. $1 a day - talk about ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. They should be handing out condoms, not fucking food.

However, in countries like Africa, having many children is a sensible insurance policy for old age. Firstly, many of the children will die before adult hood. And it is essential that some at least survive, because in time you will be too old and feeble to hunt or grow crops. Who then will feed you ? Such African nations have no social welfare policies (I would have thought that might have commended them to you). If you are old, injured or ill and have no family to care for you, you will starve.

Ensuring that you have such a family is just common sense.

We should not unthinkingly extrapolate our own social dynamics to other societies. Usually any society works the way it does for good reasons, over a long enough time frame

[Zuki Bandit]

CRYSTAL LOVING PHYSCO'S:mad::mad::mad:

[The Pastor]

OK, I'll bite. (Much though I expect this thread will devolve into the usual bullshit slinging match... I must be bored).

So are you:
a) in denial and don't believe in science you find personally inconvenient, or
b) sufficiently amoral so as not care about destroying my children's future (to pick on only one very very tiny aspect of the potential trouble ahead), or
c) presenting the "but all the other kids do it too, mom, and they're worse then me" defense - which didn't work when I was a kid, either, or
d) a troll from a well known right wing party trotting out anti-Green poison PR lines...?

Did I miss any?

I haven't even looked at the Air NZ announcement today, so can't comment on it. But I'd be delighted to hear your alternative solutions for saving the planet.
I just dont care, and I dont have the extra money to waste.

I don't see how paying more money = less carbon.

Don't feed me the bs that trees eat the carbonz flying around in the air.

[Headbanger]

If you are old, injured or ill and have no family to care for you, you will starve.

Ensuring that you have such a family is just common sense.

We should not unthinkingly extrapolate our own social dynamics to other societies. Usually any society works the way it does for good reasons, over a long enough time frame

ok, and do we see this happening?, The old and sick being looked after by their young?

Fuck no, The old and sick are dead.hell, You get weak or slow and your dead, And the young are too busy trying to live off 3 grains of rice a week and pumping out a few kids of their own to die.

They may have a plan, it may make sense to them, Its still a total and utter shit plan that doesn't work

I don't donate until they address the real problem, If there is too many people for the amount of food, stop fucking.

[rainman]

...stop fucking.

May I recommend to you then this fine website (http://www.vhemt.org/)... :)

And I haven't gone away, I'll respond to the other posts above later on - sadly, work has intervened.

[ElCoyote]

Whatcha reckon?

After reading this thread I'll respond thus: RAINMAN, ask yourself how many votes the Groans got last election, take a photo because as few as it was then it will be more than this upcoming election.

TREEHUGGERS, continue to hug, and when the tentacles join themselves around your "body?" consult your intellect.

ALL GROANS, you will find most people are responsible in their own way, aside from those who are bereft of media influence or cannot read/understand newspapers.

You cannot push the proverbial uphill unless you are delusioned or are making money pretending to do so.

Which category are you in Rainman? Given time, one of the major retailers will have a special on commonsense and you can rejoin the real world. Meanwhile suck (up to) Uncle Helen, wipe your rose coloured spectacles, inhale the organically grown coffee beans and continue using electricity and oxygen to your (hearts?) content.

A wee word of advice, if I may be so presumptious. Don't align yourself too closely to your Labour Comrades because they are soon to be Kaput, Finis (said in a Russian/French accent)

Uncle Helen and his ilk have created the very world you espouse to despise.

I am constantly surprised (although I shouldn't be) with the rapidity with which zealots become quislings when their idealology is exposed as the fraud it is.

Bugger is currently deemed an offensive word, and believe me Hugger, will, when your children are able to comprehend the difference, be no different to TUGGER.

Make hay while the sunshines comrade, and NEVER let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Headbanger]

May I recommend to you then this fine website (http://www.vhemt.org/)... :)

And I haven't gone away, I'll respond to the other posts above later on - sadly, work has intervened.

Mankind will eventually die out no matter what anyone does, happens to everything, a new balance will be found and the world will keep on spinning, the weather will keep on changing as it has since day one, The sea levels will always be moving and eventually, the sun will die.

The end.

Makes no real difference if we save the whales or cut them up for the fluid in their eyeballs. Eat all the tofu and hug as many trees as you like.

[Ixion]

Mankind will eventually die out no matter what anyone does, happens to everything, a new balance will be found and the world will keep on spinning, the weather will keep on changing as it has since day one, The sea levels will always be moving and eventually, the sun will die.

The end.

.

Except for that cockroach hooning around on a plastic maggot.

[rainman]

RAINMAN, ask yourself how many votes the Groans got last election, take a photo because as few as it was then it will be more than this upcoming election.

Sadly, you may be right. But what's your point?



Meanwhile suck (up to) Uncle Helen, wipe your rose coloured spectacles, inhale the organically grown coffee beans and continue using electricity and oxygen to your (hearts?) content.

A wee word of advice, if I may be so presumptious. Don't align yourself too closely to your Labour Comrades because they are soon to be Kaput, Finis (said in a Russian/French accent)

Uncle Helen and his ilk have created the very world you espouse to despise.


I'm always astounded by the assumptions people make. Over the last few elections, depending on the context, issues and candidate the parties I've voted for have included National, Act, Labour and Green, that I can remember - quite possibly more, although some of the lesser parties are approximately equivalent to a spoiled ballot so probably not the ALCP and the like. I am not, despite Mr Finn's and your lack of imagination, closely aligned to Labour (or National, for that matter, or even the Greens) but I focus on and evaluate the issues I view as important. I'm some distance away from being a sandal/kaftan-wearing tree-hugger, or a flag-waving commie activist, and such characterisations provide a good deal of mirth to them what knows me.

And yes, if I were a betting man I wouldn't put a fiver on the chances of a Labour 4th term. But let me not meddle too much with your world view...

[ElCoyote]

[QUOTE=rainman;1494707]Sadly, you may be right. But what's your point?
QUOTE]
My point is, you have (self confessed) nonimated how many political parties you have voted for. None of the aforementioned have altered the world one iota and neither will you. You obviously do not have the courage of your convictions to stick to an ideal. The only good thing you could say about Uncle Helen is, "it" has always been a communist raver. You on other hand situate yourself to jump whenever the weather changes without looking back. Lack of moral fibre springs to mind.

I would love to debate (verbally of course) this with you in person in the public bar of any hotel you wish to nominate, so long I would imagine as they serve vodka.

Solidarity comrade

[homer]

I see that Air NZ is allowing you to ease your conscience by paying for carbon credits against your air fare.

Are there any riders in the Biking community that would be prepared to pay more for their petrol to similarly ease their conscience?

Personally I think it is absolute crap and it is amazing that the world is being steered by the politically unusual - not unlike what Hitler managed to do in Germany all those years ago. Don't try and convince me with facts; just tell me a good story.

While I agree that we shouldn't be wasteful and I am a bit of a conservationist myself (solar heating etc.), the hand wringing and finger pointing by the extreme socialists (otherwise called the Greens) is amazing.

Would I pay for carbon credits? Not f***ing likely.

Whatcha reckon?

Technically :
since i work here and pay tax here , I recken that with all our parks ,national parks, crown land run by DOC etc etc .
wheres my cut
After all should we all be able to sell our little divy as credits and pocket it .
wonder how long itll take a tribe to figure this out ,
Just wait for it , sea ,water , air oh now credits , another gift that keeps on giving.

[rainman]

I'm saying that the wrong type of people are breeding ...
The lower socio economic people are breeding like rabbits...

Socialism always bites you on the arse.

What political system a) does not "bite you on the arse" whatever that means, and b) stops the "wrong type/lower socio economic people" from breeding? No, it's a serious question. Bonus points for explaining your views of free will as it applies across different economic classes.


I'm a bit confused. What debate are you talking about. You have basically said that anyone who does not agree with your view point is a 'denier'.


If that's the impression I've created, my apologies.

I am not a climate scientist, and doubt anyone here is either. There is always some doubt around the immediate future, and climate prediction is, for obvious reasons, a difficult task. So, like most people, I depend on expert/credible/balanced sources, real empirical events where possible, information about who's funding the research, and a fairly well tuned bullshit detector to determine whether the science is vaguely plausible or not, and in turn whether I need to do anything about it or not. I doubt that I could summarise the full extent of what I've read into a nice easy five line proof, and in fact will say that no such simple proof exists. (Just like there isn't a simple disproof). I will however offer the following fairly scientifically based (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686) repositories (http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11462) of (http://unfccc.int/essential_background/feeling_the_heat/items/2918.php) information (http://www.ipcc.ch/) for (http://www.pewclimate.org/) your (http://www.realclimate.org/) review (http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11637). (And yes, there are contrary sources which I have an open mind towards, and I will watch Mr Finn's videos later, to see if they contain anything I have not seen refuted already).

But in summary, recent (http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_8720320) events (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080318/sc_nm/ice_arctic_dc) tend (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_on_sc/warming_west_2;_ylt=Anwn95DT9DMDmqDJ3OJ_UnsiANEA) to (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080115102706.htm) point to some odd shit going on, so I think it's a reasonable position to say that we should plan to mitigate the risk sooner than later. What makes you think it's all bullshit? Isn't that a harder position to defend?



We should not unthinkingly extrapolate our own social dynamics to other societies.

What he said.


Don't feed me the bs that trees eat the carbonz flying around in the air.

Um, perhaps you could read this... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis). It's been understood for quite a while now.


Mankind will eventually die out no matter what anyone does...

So why do you get up in the morning? Why keep living? And, if you don't mind a personal question, do you have kids?

[rainman]

None of the aforementioned have altered the world one iota and neither will you.
So why do you get out of bed in the morning then?


You obviously do not have the courage of your convictions to stick to an ideal.

Or maybe my ideals don't neatly align with the national political parties (which change, anyway - look at the case of National, or Labour for that matter), and I pay more attention to local candidates and other tactical voting considerations.



I would love to debate (verbally of course) this with you in person in the public bar of any hotel you wish to nominate, so long I would imagine as they serve vodka.

Solidarity comrade

Sounds like a plan. Except for the vodka.

[klingon]

...I am the biggest hippie tree-hugger on this site, and I'll duel tofu recipes with anyone who challenges me.

Challenge accepted. I bet I'm more of a hippie tree-hugger than you!



...At the end of this year I am considering going to work on an organic farm for a year and seeing how low-impact I can live. Having a hot girlfriend who is also very interested in that helps.

Well I only date boys who vote Green. :banana:


Watch this series knuckle head. Here's the first one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqZMTY4V7Ts

[Headbanger]

So why do you get up in the morning? Why keep living? And, if you don't mind a personal question, do you have kids?

hard wired to live life. If we weren't the human species would already have died out.

Same goes for ants. You going to ask them why thy get up each morning and set out to look for food?




I heard all about divinity
But angels don't turn me on
They say life's for livin' so live it
Find the Highway To Hell and lead on

[ElCoyote]

So why do you get out of bed in the morning then?


Or maybe my ideals don't neatly align with the national political parties (which change, anyway - look at the case of National, or Labour for that matter), and I pay more attention to local candidates and other tactical voting considerations.



Sounds like a plan. Except for the vodka.

PM me for a rendezvous but only if you think the Delerium Tremens won't be a problem. Sadly your ideology is flawed as your commitment to long term stability but isn't that the Communist way. Destabilise and divide. Comrade let me tell you that if you get my back against the wall...........Sayonara Comrade

[Balding Eagle]

As the initiator of this thread, I reckon it is probably time I posted a response. It certainly was my intention to toss the proverbial provocative pebble into the pond. The level of response has surprised me a little.

My reasons are many fold.

Firstly I wanted to find out how many of the biking community who are “green” are prepared to pay extra for their fuel and would accept a “carbon tax”. I note Rainman is prepared for all to pay taxes for their SUVs and the like but he does not say that he is prepared to pay any extra tax himself. Answer the question. If you are not prepared to pay extra for YOUR petrol for your bike, you are a hypocrite as petrol “carbon tax” should be paid on ALL petrol if you are a true believer. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is?

Secondly I personally don’t believe that there has been sufficient agreement amongst scientists for us to utterly accept that Global Warming is anthropogenic – ie manmade. That the earth is warming is probably a given but what is the cause and has this been proved scientifically and conclusively. (The flat earth belief was accepted as true science at the time.) Chris de Freitis (excuse spelling) as an associate professor at Auckland University is one who is certainly trying to tell us that the commonly accepted anthropogenic warming theory is crap and there are a few who have left the IPCC because they no longer believe. These are people educated in the ways of the atmosphere and should be listened to. The debate has not ended.

Thirdly I don’t like the Greens as a political party. I admit that my politics have more of a right lean to them but I have a solar water heater, I collect rain off my roof voluntarily for irrigation, I own a small cc car (and a bike of course) and I grow many of my own vegetables. Anyone seeing me would see me as a conservationist but I despise the Green Party and its politics. Sue Bradford doesn’t have a green bone in her body, she is a professional stirrer from wayback. Keith Locke started out in the Communist party and his beliefs have followed him. Nandor wanted to legalise hemp. Jeannette I suspect has her heart in the right place. My conservationist (green) measures would put most of the aforementioned to shame. And so the Green Party is a party of socialists hiding behind a conservationist veil. There is no reason why a true conservationist party has to be socialist.

Yes I believe that we have to be careful with our environment but while China, India and the US of A (to name but a few) are prepared to give Kyoto the proverbial finger then any attempt that we make by way of penalties for the use of carbon fuels will only hurt the people of NZ and will do diddly squat for the environment.

May the debate continue.

[Mikkel]

After reading this thread I'll respond thus: RAINMAN, ask yourself how many votes the Groans got last election, take a photo because as few as it was then it will be more than this upcoming election..

You ride a ZX7R - you can not possibly call green groan without somewhere along the line giving up your beliefs. ;)


I would love to debate (verbally of course) this with you in person in the public bar of any hotel you wish to nominate, so long I would imagine as they serve vodka.

Solidarity comrade

Problem today is that most political debate has become a shit-flinging contest instead of a sober debate over a few shots of high-quality liquour!



As for NZ politics - this is a democrazy(SIC) like so many other democrazies... I see the two major parties (Labour and National) engaging in one shit-flinging contest after the other while they get NOTHING done.

I don't know much about what else there is to choose from - but at least the greens doesn't seem to engage in the shitflinging and still manage to have a significant influence upon what has happened in political circles (this is from watching the process for just over a year). If I was to vote tomorrow I'd throw my vote at the greens before even considering Labour or National - but I'd have to check what other parties are there though.

[rainman]

I note Rainman is prepared for all to pay taxes for their SUVs and the like but he does not say that he is prepared to pay any extra tax himself. Answer the question.


OK. As I said somewhere in the thread above, the Air NZ deal appears to be a marketing ploy, so in response to your original question:

"Are there any riders in the Biking community that would be prepared to pay more for their petrol to similarly ease their conscience?"

my answer would be no. Don't know where you get the idea I am "prepared for all to pay taxes for their SUVs and the like" as I've said no such thing. I would broadly support a balanced tax on emitters but the devil is in the details so don't think I'd sign up to just any plan that says "carbon tax" - and I'd balance the tax on the less desirable behaviour with a rebate on more desirable behaviour. I don't have a carbon neutral lifestyle, and don't know anyone who does, but I do strive to be as low impact as practical, irrespective of what China or anyone else does.



Secondly I personally don’t believe that there has been sufficient agreement amongst scientists for us to utterly accept that Global Warming is anthropogenic – ie manmade.


This is a cop-out. There is no absolute proof, and won't be - at the very least because there are clearly multiple factors involved, but mainly because the global ecosystem is a big thing for us little monkeys to understand. Still, intelligently managing risk is part of being a grown-up, and doing nothing is a choice. (I don't have any substantial religious beliefs, but if I could pick one it would be the concept of Karma).


Anyone seeing me would see me as a conservationist but I despise the Green Party and its politics.

Good on ya for the stuff you are doing. I agree there are elements within the Greens that are hard to agree with and people who are hard to like, but politics isn't about perfection, it's about who can get the results. If enviro issues are important to you, you should vote for a party that can help deliver good outcomes in this area.

[Rogue]

Wouldn't pay Air NZ a nob of goat sh#t
Global warming bull :angry2:
If it were so why was the weather hotter in the 1940's?
Why has the worlds climate been up and down since weather has been recored?
Why was the highest recording of CO2 worldwide in the 1920's?
Ever consider where most of the world's weather readings are taken, airports which are now mostly built in. The surrounding buildings can raise the air temp by 10 deg C. And that there are now 25% less weather stations than 30years ago
This is just another Y2K scare ahh :whocares:
Due to the 250cc 2 stroke changes coming I should be able to pick up a cheep RS250 :clap:

[homer]

Wouldn't pay Air NZ a nob of goat sh#t
Global warming bull :angry2:
If it were so why was the weather hotter in the 1940's?
Why has the worlds climate been up and down since weather has been recored?
Why was the highest recording of CO2 worldwide in the 1920's?
Ever consider where most of the world's weather readings are taken, airports which are now mostly built in. The surrounding buildings can raise the air temp by 10 deg C. And that there are now 25% less weather stations than 30years ago
This is just another Y2K scare ahh :whocares:
Due to the 250cc 2 stroke changes coming I should be able to pick up a cheep RS250 :clap:

Yep glad someone can see past the bs
exactly what i think
Its anothere lot of , if we keep telling you ,"well most will start to believe it "

[klingon]

Firstly I wanted to find out how many of the biking community who are “green” are prepared to pay extra for their fuel and would accept a “carbon tax”. I note Rainman is prepared for all to pay taxes for their SUVs and the like but he does not say that he is prepared to pay any extra tax himself. Answer the question. If you are not prepared to pay extra for YOUR petrol for your bike, you are a hypocrite as petrol “carbon tax” should be paid on ALL petrol if you are a true believer. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is?

There are two quite different issues here -
1) Would you be prepared to pay extra for your petrol to more closely reflect the true 'cost' of its production and consumption? - My answer is yes. Absolutely.

2) Is a carbon tax (in different versions as proposed by different groups) the right way to go about it? - My answer is I don't know. I am following the debate with interest and so far I haven't seen anything that appears to be the whole solution. I am prepared to consider different models and see what other countries are doing to find out what does and doesn't work in the real world.


Secondly I personally don’t believe that there has been sufficient agreement amongst scientists for us to utterly accept that Global Warming is anthropogenic – ie manmade... The debate has not ended...

I agree that we don't know everything about climate change. [I would rather call it "climate change" than "global warming" because it's too simplistic to think that the world is simply warming up. Things are much more complex than that.]

What scientists do seem to agree on is that a change in behaviour to reduce the 'probable' or 'possible' causes of climate change would be a very good idea. Whether for climate change reasons or other reasons, it would be really good if we reduced our reliance on fossil fuels, reduced all kinds of pollution and tried not to burn, chop or otherwise destroy vegetation any faster than we really need to. Isn't that just common sense?


Thirdly I don’t like the Greens as a political party. ... There is no reason why a true conservationist party has to be socialist...

The charter of the Green Party has four equal parts:
Ecological Wisdom
Social Responsibility
Appropriate Decision-making
Non-Violence

It sounds to me like you wish they would just keep the first one and ignore the other three. That would be very boring.

Personally I like Nandor - as a biker, a politician and a human being. If I ever see him zooming around on his Yamaha I will happily wave at him, just like I wave at any other biker.

[homer]

As the initiator of this thread, I reckon it is probably time I posted a response. It certainly was my intention to toss the proverbial provocative pebble into the pond. The level of response has surprised me a little.

My reasons are many fold.

Firstly I wanted to find out how many of the biking community who are “green” are prepared to pay extra for their fuel and would accept a “carbon tax”. I note Rainman is prepared for all to pay taxes for their SUVs and the like but he does not say that he is prepared to pay any extra tax himself. Answer the question. If you are not prepared to pay extra for YOUR petrol for your bike, you are a hypocrite as petrol “carbon tax” should be paid on ALL petrol if you are a true believer. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is?

Secondly I personally don’t believe that there has been sufficient agreement amongst scientists for us to utterly accept that Global Warming is anthropogenic – ie manmade. That the earth is warming is probably a given but what is the cause and has this been proved scientifically and conclusively. (The flat earth belief was accepted as true science at the time.) Chris de Freitis (excuse spelling) as an associate professor at Auckland University is one who is certainly trying to tell us that the commonly accepted anthropogenic warming theory is crap and there are a few who have left the IPCC because they no longer believe. These are people educated in the ways of the atmosphere and should be listened to. The debate has not ended.

Thirdly I don’t like the Greens as a political party. I admit that my politics have more of a right lean to them but I have a solar water heater, I collect rain off my roof voluntarily for irrigation, I own a small cc car (and a bike of course) and I grow many of my own vegetables. Anyone seeing me would see me as a conservationist but I despise the Green Party and its politics. Sue Bradford doesn’t have a green bone in her body, she is a professional stirrer from wayback. Keith Locke started out in the Communist party and his beliefs have followed him. Nandor wanted to legalise hemp. Jeannette I suspect has her heart in the right place. My conservationist (green) measures would put most of the aforementioned to shame. And so the Green Party is a party of socialists hiding behind a conservationist veil. There is no reason why a true conservationist party has to be socialist.

Yes I believe that we have to be careful with our environment but while China, India and the US of A (to name but a few) are prepared to give Kyoto the proverbial finger then any attempt that we make by way of penalties for the use of carbon fuels will only hurt the people of NZ and will do diddly squat for the environment.

May the debate continue.

Well its quite simple
the world was covered by water .......once .....mmmmm
maybe its just the fact that mountains are growing , thats how the sea shells get at the top of mountains ?
and after all glaciers are retreating arnt they ?
and, the ice is melting ?
just more BS
it happens , been happening for years
maybe theres an ice age coming
after all you only need a 2 deg decrease on the avg temp to get one
so if its say a 2 deg rise , what then

dont get sucked in to it , the politicans know that we wont be around to know any diff .

What if we lived till say the year 2120.

HaHa I told you so

[madandy]

Would the 'hippies' 'tree huggers' and the like in here state what they have done in the last few years to benefit our environment please?
Real actions, rather than simply supporting a notion or flogging the dead horse that is social conscience.

[Steam]

Would the 'hippies' 'tree huggers' and the like in here state what they have done in the last few years to benefit our environment please?
Real actions, rather than simply supporting a notion or flogging the dead horse that is social conscience.

I'm trying to think of a reason I should explain and justify my lifestyle to you.
Nope, can't think of one.
Maybe someone else is happy to have their habits and life pried into. Not me.

[madandy]

I'm trying to think of a reason I should explain and justify my lifestyle to you.
Nope, can't think of one.
Maybe someone else is happy to have their habits and life pried into. Not me.

I'm not asking you to justify your lifestyle or tell us about your habits or personal life.
I simply asked for an example of something significant you and others may have done to help Earth.
I manage an ecologically significant 43hectares of low lying harbour frontage land on Tauranga Harbour. Cleaning up and preserving the ecosystem is of great importance to me. :rockon:

[Steam]

I'm not asking you to justify your lifestyle or tell us about your habits or personal life.
I simply asked for an example of something significant you and others may have done to help Earth.
I manage an ecologically significant 43hectares of low lying harbour frontage land on Tauranga Harbour. Cleaning up and preserving the ecosystem is of great importance to me. :rockon:

Oh! Impressive. Sorry, I thought you were just going to use it as an excuse for greenie-bashing.

[bikemike]

Personally I like Nandor - as a biker, a politician and a human being. If I ever see him zooming around on his Yamaha I will happily wave at him, just like I wave at any other biker.

And I hear Russel used to be a biker too.

It's interesting reading this thread that there seems to be a general understanding that Labour or National are teams that sing from the same hymn sheet, but that the Greens are a rag tag bunch of hippies and commies. Blinkers on.

As a biker (pretty large bike too though at 45 to 60 mpg much more economical than my car - soon to be sold!) I find myself in a quandary. Over 25 years part of my identity has become the fact that I ride a bike, as I guess it is for many here. It would be hard to give it up, a bit like cutting off an arm.

At the moment, funding my riding and my conscience consists of selling the car, and bicycling more. As far as transport is concerned that's what I can do for now.

However, in light of the increasing demand for oil, the diminishing supply thereof, and to my mind convincing argument in favour of anthropogenic CO2, I am also aware that my decisions and any debates I may take part in are moot. There's a lot more crap than a debate about carbon credits/trading coming our way and justifying riding a bike is getting harder in the truest, absolutist sense.

Still, in the real world, for now, it is better than running a car :-)

Regarding the comments on 'proof' and 'consensus' these are straw men in this debate. In maths there is proof, in all else there is empiricism. Science is not a democracy nor a consensus. The most useful hypotheses win out, so we shall see!

For the record, I vote Green for the fundamental rightness of their charter, intention, effort and results. I am not a commie nor a hippie, and do not in anyway agree with everything they say or support. They are however the only party that currently puts the security of our environment first. Politics is demeaned by partisanship, so my disagreement on some Green points is for me and other Greens not an indicator of flip-flopping or lack of conviction or weather cocking or whatever else you want to call it - it's about sticking with the rational assessment of the best, or least worst option when compared to our ideals.

Biofuels are a disaster and I despair at the current support they have. When they can be produced from waste with a net benefit to the environment and a net gain in EROEI then I will support those fuels - but cropping agricultural land as an alternative to oil should be avoided here at all costs.

I thought everyone knew that Priuses are for celebrities, not Greenies?

The price of fuel will keep going up, on balance. Does it matter to you whether the increase is from more government tax, extra carbon tax, speculation, terrorism and piracy, lack of supply, pollution tax or anything else? When fuel was 92 cents per litre in 2000 did you ever think you would be prepared to pay 1.999 per litre in 2008? Over your dead body was it....?

Steam, did you read Heinberg's muse on Organics? Very good.

[Balding Eagle]

There are a good few of you who have put up good arguments in favour of the Greens. As I said in an earlier post - I am a conservationist at heart and don't like wastage. That being said, I would like to reply to a couple of posts.

Rainman - I have misquoted you and I apologise for that. You say that my stance on requiring proof is a cop out. I disagree. Science is fact; not opinion as you will agree. All I want is sufficient[I] proof and while respected scientists are disagreeing you are not going to get me into the fold.

Klingon - You say that the Green charter has the following equal principles:

Ecological Wisdom
Social Responsibility
Appropriate Decision-making [I](What does that mean?)
Non-Violence

So why don't they call themselves the "Non-violent, ecologically wise, socially responsible appropriate decision makers"? They call themselves the Green party because they want everyone to see them as conservationists rather than socialist pacifists.

Right now, this country has bigger issues to deal with. It is a shame that the Greens could not take one of their charter principles and turn it around a little. Why not turn social responsibility into personal responsibility? I agree with helping out those that are less able to fend for themselves but receiving that assistance should require some responsibility from those receiving the assistance. As long as we pay people to sit on their arses and do nothing, they will continue to sit on their arses and do nothing.

So all in all I see that none of you who are followers of the "Green" mantra are prepared to pay extra for your fuel in the way of carbon tax. That is honest, pragmatic but hypocritical as you should all be using the bus. Is climate change here? - yes but it has been several times in our past history. Is it anthropogenic? I am yet to be convinced.

[geoffm]

I don't know much about what else there is to choose from - but at least the greens doesn't seem to engage in the shitflinging and still manage to have a significant influence upon what has happened in political circles (this is from watching the process for just over a year). If I was to vote tomorrow I'd throw my vote at the greens before even considering Labour or National - but I'd have to check what other parties are there though.

The only reason the Greens (Watermelons) have any influence is becuase Auntie Helen needs their votes - a classic case of the tale wagging the dog. The same applies to the Bauble party and the other no hopers in parliment.
The Greens are great at getting others to pay, but aren't so keen on stumping up themselves. Why do they fly in planes - surely they should be taking the train between Wellington and Auckland? Are they to important? Ditto cars, especially the ministerial limos.

[klingon]

...Klingon - You say that the Green charter has the following equal principles:

Ecological Wisdom
Social Responsibility
Appropriate Decision-making (What does that mean?)
Non-Violence

Appropriate decision making means that a decision should be made at a level/by the people appropriate to that situation. So decisions about an individual's welfare should be made by the individual but decisions about a society's welfare should be made by the society.

Some Green Parties use short-hand to talk about the four principles (something like: Conservation, Welfare, Democracy, Peace) but of course you can argue that non-violence is not peace, appropriate decision making is a lot bigger than democracy, and conservation is not the only thing needed for the survival of an ecological system.


So why don't they call themselves the "Non-violent, ecologically wise, socially responsible appropriate decision makers"? They call themselves the Green party because they want everyone to see them as conservationists rather than socialist pacifists.

Ummm...because "Non-violent, ecologically wise, socially responsible appropriate decision makers" is harder to say than Green...

And because the precursor to the Green Party in New Zealand was the Values Party - possibly a better name, but it doesn't have the international recognition of 'Green'. Green may only mean environmentalism to you, but internationally it means much more. Take a look at this Wikipedia article for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_party


...Why not turn social responsibility into personal responsibility? I agree with helping out those that are less able to fend for themselves but receiving that assistance should require some responsibility from those receiving the assistance. As long as we pay people to sit on their arses and do nothing, they will continue to sit on their arses and do nothing.

Oh yes. Lots of big discussions to be had around this one. Hard to know where to start really - so I won't! :bleh:


So all in all I see that none of you who are followers of the "Green" mantra are prepared to pay extra for your fuel in the way of carbon tax. That is honest, pragmatic but hypocritical as you should all be using the bus. Is climate change here? - yes but it has been several times in our past history. Is it anthropogenic? I am yet to be convinced.

I am prepared to pay more for my fuel. I stated that clearly earlier on. Anything that brings the price of fuel in line with its true cost is fine by me. That's one of the reasons I choose to ride a motorbike instead of driving a car everywhere.

By the way, I do use the bus or train when it makes sense to do so, and I walk or bike when it makes sense to do that. I also drive a car when I need to. I don't have a problem with using the best form of transport to do the job at the time. If that makes me a weirdo in some people's eyes, it really doesn't bother me!