Dominion Post 28/03/2008 Section B Page 5

[James Deuce]

Official refutation from Transit about the risks inherent in Cheesecutters for motorcyclists, along with the line that there is "no evidence" to suggest they are any more dangerous for motorcyclists than any other barrier.

BRONZ - You guys need to have a Press Release in the DOm Post on Monday.

If it isn't there, I will do one on your behalf for Tuesday. Then you'll have to do one on Wednesday distancing yourself from me, because I'm mental, I am.

Regards

Jim Walsh

[Ocean1]

BRONZ - You guys need to have a Press Release in the DOm Post on Monday.


Absofuckinlutely. Who's taking point on that? And do they need any help from some of the more media-savy members?

[Skunk]

Here's the article:

Safety the barrier priority, not cost
Transit New Zealand traffic and safety manager Dennis Davis defends wirerope barriers.
SAFETY has always been, and will continue to be, Transit’s number one priority when choosing what sort of safety barrier to install on New Zealand’s state highways.

Wednesday’s opinion piece by Patrick McGuire, chief executive of the Cement and Concrete Association ( Concrete Barriers Safest Option), implied that initial cost was the preference when choosing the type of barrier. This is unfortunate because it does not reflect the true situation.

Throughout New Zealand we use a variety of safety barriers, both as median and side barriers. We choose the most suitable barrier for the situation.

Barriers protect road users from many hazards. For example, median barriers reduce the risk of head-on crashes by separating opposing traffic while roadside barriers protect road users from coming off the road in hazardous areas.

The point we want to make is that there is no one right answer for every situation.

Different stretches of road call for different solutions. We typically use three types of safety barriers: flexible (wirerope), semi-rigid (steel) and rigid (concrete).

As an example, along Centennial Highway, north of Pukerua Bay, a wire-rope safety barrier was the best solution because it could be accommodated along the middle of this narrow twolane road. It is simply not possible to fit a concrete barrier along this stretch of highway, which has a steep hill and railway line on one side and the sea on the other.

The results of installing this barrier speak for themselves. Since the barrier was installed, our monitoring cameras have captured at least 12 instances of motorists hitting the median barrier and surviving to tell the tale because they were prevented from crossing the centre line into the path of oncoming traffic.

Mr McGuire talks of wirerope barriers preventing traffic from being diverted around an accident scene and causing traffic jams. This is not true. One of the main reasons for using wire-rope barriers is that they can be dropped to allow traffic to drive around an accident.

As for concrete barriers, these are particularly suitable where roads are wide and have generous shoulders. Wellingtonians can observe concrete barriers along State Highway 1 near Porirua and on State Highway 2 between Petone and Ngauranga.

Concrete barriers will also be used in the Dowse to Petone project under way in the Hutt Valley because they are the most appropriate solution for this stretch of road.

We know that motorcyclists are concerned about their safety if they were to hit a wire-rope barrier, which is why we have continued to monitor overseas research. Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers.

What is dangerous is speed and, undoubtedly, motorcyclists are more vulnerable.

However, as technology develops, we will continue to monitor trials of products aimed at making barriers more forgiving if hit by a motorcyclist.

We realise that there are several countries where wire-rope barriers are not favoured. But there are many others where they continue to be promoted, for example, Sweden and Australia (Victoria), whose approaches to road safety are held up as a good model for other countries to follow.

All barriers, whether concrete, wire-rope or steel, are designed to prevent crashes by ensuring road users stay on their side of the road. Many factors go into choosing the most suitable barrier and cost is but one factor.

We remain committed to choosing the best options for each situation. New Zealanders can rest assured that their safety is our number one priority.

Dennis Davis is traffic and safety manager for Transit NZ.

[ManDownUnder]

A direct quote with highlighted that contradiction built in

"We know that motorcyclists are concerned about their safety if they were to hit a wire-rope barrier, which is why we have continued to monitor overseas research. Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers.

What is dangerous is speed and, undoubtedly, motorcyclists are more vulnerable"

Got a Bob each way on that one!

Also, I think it would be wise to consider getting whatever research and meeting with the Concrete Guys... construct a co-ordinated plan of attack and take it to them.

The concrete guys have budget and a vested interest to keep this battle alive. Have they seen/do they know of the Cheesecutter resources thread in here? It's nice this battle has gone public and has been escalated just in time to "ripen" before the election... I think this could be fun!

[henry]

"Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers"

What a fucking liar!

Some one needs to get this guy on a bike down Haywards and see if he thinks any differently.

[Ixion]

There is no BRONZ in Wellington. But if someone wants to put something together I'm happy to email it in on on a BRONZ Auckland letterhead and sign it.

[Storm]

Jims your man- he'll let them know our feelings in his usual succint, pithy manner

[MSTRS]

Mr McGuire talks of wirerope barriers preventing traffic from being diverted around an accident scene and causing traffic jams. This is not true. One of the main reasons for using wire-rope barriers is that they can be dropped to allow traffic to drive around an accident.
And this bit....HA! Did they drop the wires during the recent roll-over at Paekak? Nope...apparently it would have taken at a bit of trouble, so left in place. Held up southbound traffic for hours...those that were already committed to that bit of road and couldn't divert over the hill.

[Ocean1]

Did they drop the wires during the recent roll-over at Paekak? Nope...apparently it would have taken at a bit of trouble, so left in place. Held up southbound traffic for hours...those that were already committed to that bit of road and couldn't divert over the hill.

Yes, an article in the same rag at that time quoted someone saying it took 8 trained officers and some equipment to manage this. IIRC there was also some question as to the safety of such activities... and there was another reason it couldn't be done in that case, can't remember.

[yungatart]

Transit obviously think that motorcyclists have but one brain cell, and that is shared among many. Otherwise, why would they spout such utter shit and expect that we will believe them.
I'm with MDU. This is election year, let the partay begin!!
Right, camn someone clever tell me what to do next....

[WelshWizard]

have a look at the artical concerned for those who have not seen it,
follow the link

So is Dennis Davis correct when he states that "Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1494410#post1494410
I have already put may 2 pennys in there




Originally Posted by The Stranger
So is Dennis Davis correct when he states that "Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers?



Originally posted by Welsh Wizard
Many thanks for the artical,
after reading I am left wondering what planet Dennis Davis lives on,
he tries to downplay the fact that WRB are loseing favour in many of the countries of Eutope and some have actualy banned there use,

He claims that concrete needs space and implies that concrete would have been considered along Centennial Highway, but the road was not wide enough to accomadate Concrete,
What about the Southern Motorway from Auckland, enough room there for concrete and only one line of Concrete would be required instead of two lines of WRB's.

He makes no mention of the cars and Trucks that have crossed through the WRB's Cars can still go under WRB's and through them as per Falcon on the CC website, and if he looks at the link to the students that died in the Mazda that went under the WRB's in Nebraska he will find that this has heppened before, and the Truck that just rolled through the WRB in Oct 2007 is another example of there failure the Souther Motorway .

Most vehicals that come into concrete Barriers glance off unless hitting at an acute angle, same factors apply to a motorcyclist, only difference being that a glancing action on a bike is going to be as deadly as hitting at an acute angle as all the WRB's do is guide the motorcyle into the post, ( there design is such that the post are supposed to give way and aid the slowing down of a car or lorry,

for those who still dought, read the cut and paste of an e-mail with links you can follow up as to what research has been done in the States


Dear Mr. **************


One of my colleagues suggested that you contact Clay Gabler at VA Tech [gabler@vt.edu] as he has done some work on motorcycle crashes with barriers. Also try Nick Artimovich, FHWA, (Nick.Artimovich@dot.gov).



Jessica Fomalont

Librarian

Transportation Research Board

500 Fifth St., NW

Washington, DC 20001

USA

(202) 334-2989

(202) 334-2527 (fax)

jfomalont@nas.edu

and the following statement

Corp. Authors
/ Publisher:
· National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov

400 7th Street, SW

Washington, DC 20590 USA

Publication Date:
20050600

Description:
13p; Figures; Photos; References(7); Tables(7)

Media Type:
Web

Languages:
English

Abstract:
Roadside protection systems such as steel guard rails or concrete barriers were originally developed to protect occupants of cars and/or trucks – but not to protect impacting motorcycle riders. Motorcycle rider crashes into such barriers have been identified as resulting in severe injuries and hence has become a subject of road safety research.

Please note the statement

Motorcycle rider crashes into such barriers have been identified as resulting in severe injuries

As this statement is made by a USA based authority they will have far more evidence about crashes than even NZ can handle after all they have over 3 million people in the States compared to our nearly 4 million.
so they will have far better ideas about what is identified as a servere

steel guard rails are no better than WRB's they still have post exposed at least they have found in their report that concrete is mainly a danger when hit at acute angle

[What?]

We realise that there are several countries where wire-rope barriers are not favoured. But there are many others where they continue to be promoted, for example, Sweden and Australia (Victoria), whose approaches to road safety are held up as a good model for other countries to follow.
On the flip-side, it wouldn't be unfair to say that the road safety model for both Vic and Sweden is to make crashing (in a car) safe, and has absolutlely fuck-all to do with teaching people how to not crash in the first place.

And Sorry Yungatart, but neither Transit nor LTNZ have any staff capable of thinking at all; their elite simply have the skills to regurgitate convenient bullshit.

[Grahameeboy]

I guess no one has realised that Motorcycling is inherently hazardous without any other hazards needing to be present.
More bikers get killed on the open roads than motorways so is this really as big an issue as it is being made.
Perspective??

[James Deuce]

Graham, you really are a tiresome prat.

We're not over stating the risks, and I've survived glancing off concrete barriers at motorway speeds. If it had been a WRB I had a 70% chance of losing a limb. Other countries who have expreienced one single fatality of a motorcyclist being chopped in half by by a WRB have promptly reviewed WRBs and rejected them on the grounds that they are specifically significantly more dangerous than any other form of motorway or roadside barrier for motorcyclists. They've then either ripped them out or clad them. In spite of this Transit insist that there is no evidence to suggest that WRBS are more dangerous for motorcyclists, and unsurprisingly, you in your blissed out, God will Sort It, psuedo-hippy religious haze insist on also discounting the value of human life, simply because it's just a step on the journey to sitting at the right hand of a myth, all the while spitting on the other losers who don't share your point of view.

In the meantime the LTNZ's own mythical religious leader, Monash University, are starting to question the validity of describing WRBs as safety barriers after testing cars striking barriers at highway speeds at angles greater than 60 degrees. It rips the roof of cars that submarine under the barier and it over turns vehicles that are tall enough to go over.

Transit install them incorrectly in NZ. They are supposed to be a minimum of 4 metres from traffic, due to the fact they stretch when hit and can allow larger vehicles to enter oncoming traffic albeit at reduced speed.

Done ANY research Graham? Bothered in any way to back up your drippy placatory attitude. Yes motorcycling dangerous, but that doesn't mean we should stand back and let the state sanctioned equivalent of a head high wire strung across the road to get rid of those pesky motorcyclists by Mavis the countryside bigot.

[Grahameeboy]

Graham, you really are a tiresome prat.

We're not over stating the risks, and I've survived glancing off concrete barriers at motorway speeds. If it had been a WRB I had a 70% chance of losing a limb. Other countries who have expreienced one single fatality of a motorcyclist being chopped in half by by a WRB have promptly reviewed WRBs and rejected them on the grounds that they are specifically significantly more dangerous than any other form of motorway or roadside barrier for motorcyclists. They've then either ripped them out or clad them. In spite of this Transit insist that there is no evidence to suggest that WRBS are more dangerous for motorcyclists, and unsurprisingly, you in your blissed out, God will Sort It, psuedo-hippy religious haze insist on also discounting the value of human life, simply because it's just a step on the journey to sitting at the right hand of a myth, all the while spitting on the other losers who don't share your point of view.

In the meantime the LTNZ's own mythical religious leader, Monash University, are starting to question the validity of describing WRBs as safety barriers after testing cars striking barriers at highway speeds at angles greater than 60 degrees. It rips the roof of cars that submarine under the barier and it over turns vehicles that are tall enough to go over.

Transit install them incorrectly in NZ. They are supposed to be a minimum of 4 metres from traffic, due to the fact they stretch when hit and can allow larger vehicles to enter oncoming traffic albeit at reduced speed.

Done ANY research Graham? Bothered in any way to back up your drippy placatory attitude. Yes motorcycling dangerous, but that doesn't mean we should stand back and let the state sanctioned equivalent of a head high wire strung across the road to get rid of those pesky motorcyclists by Mavis the countryside bigot.

Pratt has 2 "T's" Jim...

"and unsurprisingly, you in your blissed out, God will Sort It, psuedo-hippy religious haze insist on also discounting the value of human life, simply because it's just a step on the journey to sitting at the right hand of a myth, all the while spitting on the other losers who don't share your point of view"

Sorry Jim, my bad, I thought this was the religious thread...surprisingly a) I have no issue being called a Pratt and b) Christians do have non-Christian views...yeah amazing eh.

All I did was raise a question...I did not attack the cause or anyone...I actually got some green bling...actually the last time I posted something which you did not like on a Post you started I got infracted...at least you like my poetry...

As you were...

[sunhuntin]

i read that yesterday at work, and then spent most of the rest of my free shift time writing on paper stolen from my bosses book, lol.

DRAFT! please review and make suggestions.

i am writing in response to the letter from dennis davis [dom post, march 28 2008]

he has several major faults in his facts reguarding wire rope barriers.

point 1: the barrier on centennial highway. international facts recommend a minimum of 3 meter allowance either side to allow for distortion when hit. on centennial highway, this means the impacting vehicle would be in the opposing lane by the time the 3 meter distortion has been completed.

point 2: studying overseas reports. i call transits bluff on this. if transit was paying attention to overseas reports, they would know many countries have banned them and are in the process of replacing or altering to make them safe for ALL road users.

point 3: they pose no more danger to motorcyclists then other barriers. again, i call transits bluff. at any speed above 70k, its a guarantee that any motorcyclist who hits it will, at best, lose a limb. at worst, it will cost a life. im sure the general public wont mind motorcyclists riding at the safe speed of 50km in places where wire ropes are erected.

point 4: cost is not a factor. wire rope barriers ARE cheaper to install than concrete. however, over a timeframe of even a year, the installation savings have been eaten up by repair costs. everytime a wire rope barrier gets impacted, it needs to be repaired. concrete does not.

point 5: roadside barriers protecting users from hazards. i have not once seen a site where wire ropes were more suitable than concrete. other than to preserve the view for tourists, that is.

myself and many other motorcyclists have been campaigning against wire rope barriers since danial evans died as a result of hitting a wire riope barrier. had that not been there, he would still be with his friends and family today. and i know we will continue our cause until we see the barriers either removed or covered to make them safe for 100% of road users. i only hope this happens before another innocent person loses their life to a barrier.

[Ixion]

Can someone provide a link to the original concrete guy article. I can't find it.

[WelshWizard]

It would seem the Dom Post is pay to view so if some one has a scan of it and puts it on Photofuckit and post a link most of us who never read it can see what they are on about.

[Ocean1]

Not privy to the Dom's electric version.
Sometimes Stuff caches articles otherwise not directly available, not this time it seems, however two other recent articles now seem useful in light of the recent Transit missive...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4424105a23918.html

"The delay motorists faced was the price you pay for a wire rope median barrier. We could not right the truck, it had to be towed away."

About eight men would have been needed to remove one section of the barrier, he said.

Kapiti Emergency Medical Services director Chris Lane said that, though a concrete barrier would have been more expensive, sections would have been easier to remove in emergencies.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4254703a6479.html

"Transit announced in 2005 that it would spend $15.2 million to extend the barrier along the entire stretch (of the southern end of the Centenial highway). The project was delayed by planning changes, and work started this May at a cost of $14.5 million."

[WelshWizard]

first one

Peak-hour traffic delays of up to two hours after a crash on Centennial Highway could not be prevented because of the new wire rope median barrier, emergency services say.

Hundreds of motorists were delayed yesterday when a truck flipped on to its roof alongside the new wire rope median barrier installed along the entire stretch of road south of Paekakariki last year. The small truck in the southbound lane clipped a bank and flipped, straddling the lane, about 8am, Sergeant Des O'Sullivan said.

The truck driver suffered a suspected broken collarbone and was taken to Wellington Hospital along with two passengers who had minor injuries.

Mr O'Sullivan said the rope median barrier stopped southbound traffic going around the truck. "The delay motorists faced was the price you pay for a wire rope median barrier. We could not right the truck, it had to be towed away."

About eight men would have been needed to remove one section of the barrier, he said.

Kapiti Emergency Medical Services director Chris Lane said that, though a concrete barrier would have been more expensive, sections would have been easier to remove in emergencies.

Paekakariki Volunteer Fire Brigade chief Ash Richardson said: "There will be teething problems, every crash is different, but the delays were pretty much unpreventable. It would have been too dangerous to remove a section of the wire rope barrier. There would not have been a lot of gain. "

Emergency response representatives will meet this week to discuss procedures.


the second on
A wire rope median barrier will finally be extended along the entire stretch of Wellington's Centennial Highway - nearly two years after Transit New Zealand announced it would be extended.

Work started last night on erecting the barrier posts along the southern end of the highway. The work will take a week and will be done at night to reduce inconvenience for motorists.

"It is fantastic news," said Chris Lane, who as director of Kapiti Emergency Medical Services has attended most accidents on the road during the past 16 years.

"As soon as it is erected, the potential for fatalities and serious injuries on the road will drop back to a negligible level."

The benefits of the barrier have already been seen - since Transit erected a 700-metre trial section of wire rope median at the southern end of Centennial Highway in 2004, there has not been a fatal crash on that stretch of road.

Vehicles had struck the wire barrier 15 times with possible deadly collisions prevented. The trial section was put in place after seven people died on the highway in 2004, sparking a public outcry. Wellington coroner Garry Evans said the deaths could have been prevented if a median had been in place.

Transit announced in 2005 that it would spend $15.2 million to extend the barrier along the entire stretch. The project was delayed by planning changes, and work started this May at a cost of $14.5 million.

Project manager Terry McGavin said the overall project had taken 62 weeks, including widening the road and reinforcing the hillside.

[MSTRS]

Can someone provide a link to the original concrete guy article. I can't find it.

No link - but hope you can read the scan I took

[Ixion]

No link - but hope you can read the scan I took

Good stuff. OK, where's my quill and horn.

[Skunk]

Good stuff. OK, where's my quill and horn.
Try this...


Concrete barriers safest option
PATRICK McGUIRE
SEVERAL recent road accidents on our highways have highlighted the need for an urgent reassessment of the type of median barriers being installed throughout the roading network.

These incidents have prompted road user groups, such as the Bikers Rights Association, to call for the wire-rope barriers to be replaced with concrete barriers to improve road safety. They reiterate the position of the Automobile Association and some emergency services specialists, which have advocated in favour of concrete barriers as the safest device for median strips.

One particularly tragic crash, on Auckland’s Southern Motorway last October, resulted in the death of a young motorcyclist, who lost control of his vehicle and collided with the wire-rope barrier beside the road.

Another crash on the same stretch of highway involved a truck smashing through the wire-rope median barrier, and colliding with cars approaching in the opposite direction on the other carriageway —a ‘‘cross-over’’ accident.

And recently an accident on Centennial Highway north of Wellington led to a major traffic jam because the wire-rope barrier prevented traffic from being diverted around a crashed vehicle.

There is clearly an urgent need for authorities to reconsider their policies on road safety barriers, as steadily growing traffic volumes on our motorways and arterial routes will inevitably result in more frequent cross-over accidents.

The cost of failing to address this important road safety issue is too great, not only for the people directly affected by the horrific smashes, but also for the health system and the wider economy.

While there has been significant investment in roading infrastructure in the past few years, there has not been the same level of investment in the most effective road safety barriers — those made from concrete.

The wide-scale introduction of concrete road safety barriers will require a different approach from decision-makers, however, who have traditionally given preference to perceived lower initial costs when choosing the type of barrier. This focus has led to a proliferation of the wire-rope barriers along our highways, as concrete barriers are about twice as expensive to install.

BUT long-term safety performance and lower life cycle costs, both key advantages of building with concrete, must be taken into account when making these decisions.

There is a groundswell of international opinion in support of the benefits of concrete road barriers over alternatives such as steel and wire-rope barriers. In Norway, for instance, wire-rope barriers have been banned and are being gradually replaced, while in other countries wire-rope barriers are being modified to reduce their impact in crashes to road users such as motorcyclists.

In 2005, Britain’s Highways Agency announced an initiative to install concrete median barriers on all of England’s motorways which carry more than 25,000 vehicles a day. Traffic volumes on many of New Zealand’s major highways exceed this threshold.

A review conducted by the British agency concluded that rigid concrete safety barriers provided the greatest benefit in terms of safety and reduced long-term cost. In addition to their vehicle containment and impact resistance capabilities, concrete safety barriers had reduced maintenance requirements, and did not require repairs following accidents, therefore minimising consequent disruption to traffic. At least a 50-year lifespan was also expected for concrete barriers.

Concrete road safety barriers prevent dangerous motorway cross-over accidents by redirecting the errant vehicle along the direction of the flow of traffic in which it was travelling, rather than into oncoming vehicles, regardless of the type of vehicle.

As such, these barriers easily meet the performance criteria required for New Zealand’s roading infrastructure, and the evidence from overseas indicates they are a suitable and affordable alternative to the wire-rope median barriers currently being installed throughout New Zealand.

While the industry I represent may benefit from the wide-scale introduction of road safety barriers made from concrete, this issue is not about extra business or profit for our members, but the best solution for New Zealand’s roading network.

When deciding what type of road safety barrier to use, New Zealand should consider all the benefits of concrete barriers, including the long-term safety performance and reduced life cycle costs.

Surely New Zealanders’ lives are worth it.

Patrick McGuire is chief executive of the Cement & Concrete Association of New Zealand.


Picture: CRAIG SIMCOX
Cheap and nasty: Wire-rope barriers are cheaper to install than concrete, but are not as safe. In Norway, the barriers have been banned and are being replaced.

[MaxB]

Ideas for a test.

Take 3 Government transport spokespeople and be ready to throw them off a building such that any unobstructed landing would not be fatal. Across their path place a wire rope barrier, a concrete barrier and a soft earth bank such that you have 1 obstacle per contestant. Place bets on who you think would be the most farked. Then throw them off. If the barriers are that safe then they haven't anything to worry about.

I'm guessing none of the hypocrites would be prepared to back up their ridiculous statement with any kind of demonstration or testing.

[WelshWizard]

No link - but hope you can read the scan I took


Many thanks MSTRS,
at last we can all see what was published, the fact that there is no archive links makes me wonder was any presure put on the Dom post after they published, Maybe some one who works for the Dom Post could confirm or deny this.