What would happen if MNZ disappeared?

[FROSTY]

Throwing a question out there. If MNZ ceased to exist what effect would it have on bike racing in New Zealand?
Theres some pretty clear cut answers re race licences and sponsorship of international riders.
But what if we went to opperating directly under FIM?
throwing the idea out there for discussion.

[moT]

The Anti-Christ would be born!

[scott411]

you can not operate under the FIM, everybody has to go though thier national federation, if MNZ dissappered our international national riders would have to ride under a different country, Aussie for England i prusume would be the easy ones,

also if thier were no national body thier would be even more split in the rules, one club would run something a bit different than the others, and bikes would be legal in some races and not others, i think it would be worse than it is now,

[scrivy]

Why can't MNZ simply hold more regular discussion groups with interested parties to formulate the way forward?
Waiting a year just lets things stagnate, or worse, brew over and cause grief!
Why cant reps from all the classes attend meetings with MNZ officials at various times of the year, to tell them what their class wants!! After all, MNZ just governs what it thinks we want. How about it govern what we actually want?! The way forward is not too hard. Communication is the key in any industry/business/venture or organisation.
This has to be a 2-way street.

As I understand it, there has never been discussion about race dates, venues, formats, race lengths, classes etc. with any of the current road racers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Scrivy

[sidecar bob]

I assume you guys read Animal Farm.

[scrivy]

you can not operate under the FIM, everybody has to go though thier national federation, if MNZ dissappered our international national riders would have to ride under a different country, Aussie for England i prusume would be the easy ones,


I understand Stacey Sellar raced his sidecar over here on a NZ licence, not an international one?? He still got to race here, and race in Australia on his Aussie one did he not??

[Deano]

Is the problem MNZ or the people that work there and the organisation 'culture' ?

E.g hanging up the phone on one of your paying members (Club not racer) is not conducive to the fostering of the sport IMO

[scrivy]

I assume you guys read Animal Farm.

Beast you stay on topic Bob...... :shutup:

[FROSTY]

What would happen if race dates for the nationals were booked NOW for the 09 nats?

[sidecar bob]

What would happen if race dates for the nationals were booked NOW for the 09 nats?

I think it would result in competitors being able to get their shit organised good & early.:yes:

[scott411]

I understand Stacey Sellar raced his sidecar over here on a NZ licence, not an international one?? He still got to race here, and race in Australia on his Aussie one did he not??

i know australia and nz have a specail agreement, i know aussie riders can ride meetings here on aussie licences, with proof of insurance,

and i know you can apply for a mnz licence on a aussie passport with our border laws, you are not ment ot have both at licences at once, but i know other riders that have bent the laws to suit themselves as well, its one of the areas that is very hard to police

[ajturbo]

i know australia and nz have a specail agreement, i know aussie riders can ride meetings here on aussie licences, with proof of insurance,

and i know you can apply for a mnz licence on a aussie passport with our border laws, you are not ment ot have both at licences at once, but i know other riders that have bent the laws to suit themselves as well, its one of the areas that is very hard to police
And the Aussie's got to race FREE!!!... how the hell does THAT work??

the boys that went over to aussie late last year had to pay....

but what would happen if we got rid of mnz??

shaun would be wasting his time..lol

we do need a governing body, but we also need one that LISTENS to us ( well maybe not me, but guys who KNOW what they are talking about)

but we ALSO need room to move in our race clubs...

ie: the Vic club's inclusion of the 250's in streetstock...( it is OUR race meeting!!)

there should be separate mnz for dirt and road raceing...

[idleidolidyll]

as noted, you'd have to have another organisation instead that was affiliated to the FIM.

however, there's nothing to stop organisers running their own meetings outside MNZ.

Of course MNZ would likely blacklist them so it might only be for those of us who don't give a damn about racing overseas or in MNZ organised meetings.

BEARs seriously considered this for a while and MNZ softened up on them a bit (given it's massive popularity).

Sadly I think it is a culture issue. I know Pav pretty well and he's a good bloke with his heart in the right place.

It'd be hard for one man to make fundamental change within MNZ and it might be that the way its structured prevents such change.

I don't see that MNZ has really served its members and prospective members well for a long time. Without knowing the intimate motivations of the organisation and staff, it has always seemed to have served the sponsors and race organisers first and second and the riders/prospective riders last.

I'm sure they'll disagree of course but there ya go; that's been my experience and impression over the last 30 years in MX and road racing.

[idleidolidyll]

By the way, probably the largest group of newcomers to road racing in the last few years are the riders of motards and they don't even have a representative!

In fact, I reckon they've been treated like leppers.

Great for the sport? nope

great PR for new members? nope

[Grub]

Why can't MNZ simply hold more regular discussion groups with interested parties to formulate the way forward?

Nice to see some positive questions rather than a "them n us" discussion.

If the clubs talk to each other (I bet they don't) they could certainly influence how MNZ operates. Regular discussions are easy aren't they. We have a national series that visits all the regions over the summer. It wouldn't be hard to have a half-day meeting either on the Thu/Fri or Monday around the meeting.

Have a structured agenda, with discussion topics decided in advance by input from clubs (as the rider reps), sponsors, promoters and circuits. Stick to that agenda, keep the discussions on topic and get some of the issues aired and action-pointed afterwards. These could be called the "Annual Motorcycling Symposia" and be given formal status as the forum that defines the guiding principles for the sport in the year to come. Annual conferences don't really work - people make 'presentations' and don't really want discussions about them.

What you can't have, which is why MNZ's job is nearly impossible, is to try and manage a thousand different opinions, ideas and agendas. That's how it is now and all MNZ can do is put up barriers to stop individuals bombarding them with "their" idea of how the sport should be run. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

There is a catch. It requires riders and clubs to be organised and professional in formulating discussion points and agenda items and to agree on the outcomes. And most importantly, they can't moan about having to get to the circuit a day earlier/later. They either want their say or they don't - HTFU.

[Deano]

What you can't have, which is why MNZ's job is nearly impossible, is to try and manage a thousand different opinions, ideas and agendas. That's how it is now and all MNZ can do is put up barriers to stop individuals bombarding them with "their" idea of how the sport should be run. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

There is a catch. It requires riders and clubs to be organised and professional in formulating discussion points and agenda items and to agree on the outcomes. And most importantly, they can't moan about having to get to the circuit a day earlier/later. They either want their say or they don't - HTFU.

The second paragraph I certainly agree with, but the first - a certain private promoter, (while not the best at business communication) has not been assisted by the governing organisation, in terms of attaining insurance cover for grass roots events. It would be a shame to lose these events which encourage newbies and the hardcore alike to participate. Ask anyone who participate at the cliff hanger sprints or hill climb.

[Grub]

a certain private promoter, (while not the best at business communication) has not been assisted by the governing organisation, in terms of attaining insurance cover for grass roots events..

Yep and that's a damned shame Deano. That's why I included "promoters" as equal partners in the Motorsport Symposia idea. They need to be heard and they need to have the support of the other parties as well. As long as no one party is taking business away from others, everyone should be battting for the same team (except Honda riders of course)

[Deano]

Things could definitely be better.

[Kickaha]

What would happen if race dates for the nationals were booked NOW for the 09 nats?

I doubt any track in the country will book the dates that far ahead


I think it would result in competitors being able to get their shit organised good & early.:yes:

I doubt the competitors could organise them selves if they were given 2 years lead time

If MNZ disappear what organisation will replace them? if you want a National series I would think you need a National body to coordinate it,unless the clubs could do it between themselves and come up with a common set of class rules

[scrivy]

I doubt any track in the country will book the dates that far ahead
Rubbish -I book the Taupo track for each year for the RoadRace Spectacular. They know its my date.


I doubt the competitors could organise them selves if they were given 2 years lead time.
Er.... you talking about your lap time????? :whistle:

:rolleyes:

[sidecar bob]

I doubt any track in the country will book the dates that far ahead



I doubt the competitors could organise them selves if they were given 2 years lead time

If MNZ disappear what organisation will replace them? if you want a National series I would think you need a National body to coordinate it,unless the clubs could do it between themselves and come up with a common set of class rules

Well maybe it would result in poor old frosty being able get some tyres without them being allocated to a "more worthy" competitor, But i doubt two years would be enough for the tyre companies.

[FROSTY]

actually all kidding aside--i know at least ONE track with its bookings being taken 18months to 2 years in advance.
To me thats just fundimental to everything.
Get dates set in stone. 2 years in advance. Gives everybody time to organise themselves.
Including sponsors,potential investors.. Yes tyre suppliers etc
Ditto the local cub serieses. Why not have the tracks organised so we dont get overlaps--2 meetings on the same day.

[ajturbo]

Things could definitely be better.
hey deano....do you NEED the MNZ to run your event?

OUR bucket racing is done without them...we set the rules and we all get on with racing, politics?... we leave that up to luke!

[Burrt Badger]

Frosty.

The circuits will not commit to 18 months out in the summer period until Motorsport NZ has fixed it's tier 1 and 2 dates, then they will accept bookings for the likes of the Road Race Champs. Motorsport NZ usually confirms it's dates in June.

[Kickaha]

Rubbish -I book the Taupo track for each year for the RoadRace Spectacular. They know its my date.

Thats only one date,try booking a whole series that far out, and you also book for a time when track use isn't in high demand



Frosty.

The circuits will not commit to 18 months out in the summer period until Motorsport NZ has fixed it's tier 1 and 2 dates, then they will accept bookings for the likes of the Road Race Champs. Motorsport NZ usually confirms it's dates in June.

Cars get priority, they always have because they bring in more money

[oyster]

There's nothing wrong with MNZ it's classes or rules.
BUT there are two things that desperately need attention
1) Better "quality" people in the roles. It's only our fault if we sit back and let others do the work while we have the playtime.
2) A continuous and lively two way communication /consultation system.
Imagine if the MNZ site had a well run forum like KB where the commissioners and board regularly posted up topical issues for open discussion.

[idleidolidyll]

hey deano....do you NEED the MNZ to run your event?

OUR bucket racing is done without them...we set the rules and we all get on with racing, politics?... we leave that up to luke!

and that's the way other motorcycle sport will go if MNZ continues as its done for the last few decades

[idleidolidyll]

There's nothing wrong with MNZ it's classes or rules.
BUT there are two things that desperately need attention
1) Better "quality" people in the roles. It's only our fault if we sit back and let others do the work while we have the playtime.
2) A continuous and lively two way communication /consultation system.
Imagine if the MNZ site had a well run forum like KB where the commissioners and board regularly posted up topical issues for open discussion.

I disagree, there's plenty wrong with the classes. The original concept of F1, F2 and F3 have been destroyed and the manufacturers now own the premium class instead of competing in real; production classes where the racing is cheaper and we can actually judge which is the better production bike.

The bikes you see the winners on bear only a farcical resemblence to what you can buy from the shops.

As for the people, another thread points to the problem in that.
Sean Harris has offered himself as North Island representative and although we know he's a good rider, we know bugger all about his viewpoints.

Despite the best intentions, often the delegates have to make decisions and compromises at meetings that they have not discussed with the clubs/members and it is those decisions that often end up pissing people off.

If we had some kind of forum where delegates really were able to discuss their opinions about racing classes and meeting structures etc, we might be able to elect people who really did REPRESENT us.

How many of you actually know any of the personal viewpoints of your delegates?

And this is what makes your last suggestion a bloody good one.

[Goblin]

As for the people, another thread points to the problem in that.
Sean Harris has offered himself as North Island representative and although we know he's a good rider, we know bugger all about his viewpoints.

If we had some kind of forum where delegates really were able to discuss their opinions about racing classes and meeting structures etc, we might be able to elect people who really did REPRESENT us.

How many of you actually know any of the personal viewpoints of your delegates?

And this is what makes your last suggestion a bloody good one.This is why I think that Shaun would be suited to the job. He's a battler. He wasn't going to be allowed to race at IOM but he made some noise and got the result he wanted. He nearly died there but fought for his life and got results. He was dicked around by ACC here, made a lot of noise and got results. Anyone see a pattern forming here? Nobody wants an angry Ginga on their back so he gets things done.

And yes...a discussion forum on the MNZ site would go a long way to letting riders have their say. Great idea!

[FROSTY]

Just a lil heads up.Senior people in at least 1 bike club read THIS forum. The CEO of MNZ has been known to read this forum.

[Kickaha]

Nobody wants an angry Ginga on their back so he gets things done.

But does that mean he would get the things done that the people he represents want? especially if he doesnt agree with what they want?

[idleidolidyll]

Just a lil heads up.Senior people in at least 1 bike club read THIS forum. The CEO of MNZ has been known to read this forum.

yep, but do they really pay attention and act on what they read?

[idleidolidyll]

This is why I think that Shaun would be suited to the job. He's a battler. He wasn't going to be allowed to race at IOM but he made some noise and got the result he wanted. He nearly died there but fought for his life and got results. He was dicked around by ACC here, made a lot of noise and got results. Anyone see a pattern forming here? Nobody wants an angry Ginga on their back so he gets things done.

And yes...a discussion forum on the MNZ site would go a long way to letting riders have their say. Great idea!

all those things did happen to him but we still don't really know what his opinions are on the specific items that are of interest to members and prospective members; until ALL prospective members give those I'd find it hard to vote for ANY of them regardless of their experience.

Why? Because as much as you might dislike MNZ, it's almost always been made up of people like Shaun; ex racers with lots of experience.
What's been missing is knowledge of their opinions on specific issues outside their circle of friends and a few club members.

[scott411]

[QUOTE=idleidolidyll;1497049]Why? Because as much as you might dislike MNZ, it's almost always been made up of people like Shaun; ex racers with lots of experience.
QUOTE]


very good point, one i have been thinking about for a while, there seems to be a us and them attitude when people talk about mnz, mnz are jsut volenteers that are into motorcycle racing,

[Goblin]

But does that mean he would get the things done that the people he represents want? especially if he doesnt agree with what they want?


all those things did happen to him but we still don't really know what his opinions are on the specific items that are of interest to members and prospective members; until ALL prospective members give those I'd find it hard to vote for ANY of them regardless of their experience.

Why? Because as much as you might dislike MNZ, it's almost always been made up of people like Shaun; ex racers with lots of experience.
What's been missing is knowledge of their opinions on specific issues outside their circle of friends and a few club members.Well I havn't brushed up on my telepathy lately but he has put up a hand for the position so Im willing to vote to see if he can be a good N.I. Rep. Time will tell I guess.

This is also where a discussion forum on the MNZ site would be useful.

[doc]

yep, but do they really pay attention and act on what they read?


.
What's been missing is knowledge of their opinions on specific issues outside their circle of friends and a few club members.


But does that mean he would get the things done that the people he represents want? especially if he doesnt agree with what they want?

This is the problem, you have to have a bit of faith in who you vote for. They are in politics and can only speak on your behalf if they are honest in their intentions getting elected. Sometimes once they are there they will do anything to stay there.

Shaun seems pretty genuine to me. Time will tell.

[Robert Taylor]

By the way, probably the largest group of newcomers to road racing in the last few years are the riders of motards and they don't even have a representative!

In fact, I reckon they've been treated like leppers.

Great for the sport? nope

great PR for new members? nope


Well, if they have a habit of being foul mouthed, downright obnoxious and condescending then I could well understand them being treated like leppers.
Thankfully most of the motard riders I know are well balanced, polite and very pleasant people.

[idleidolidyll]

Just had coffee and a good conversation with two friends

one has been involved in racing teams for years (now retired) and the other currenly has a 12 year old up and coming motocrosser in the family, a national title already under his belt.

it seems MNZ is as 'interesting' in mx administration as it is with road racing.

the disconnect with riders interests was a theme from all sides; even importers whose combined suggestions and recommendations were thrown out completely

if so many riders, parents and importers are upset with MNZ; who are they working for?

Next years junior world champs seem to be handing publicity and income to a private training institution and creating a 'qualifying' system that will cost parents and riders many thousands of dollars each just to have a chance to ride.

someone enlighten me, why is this a good idea?

[idleidolidyll]

This is the problem, you have to have a bit of faith in who you vote for. They are in politics and can only speak on your behalf if they are honest in their intentions getting elected. Sometimes once they are there they will do anything to stay there.

Shaun seems pretty genuine to me. Time will tell.

yes, you need some faith but you also need to know what they think about the issues that bother you.

[cowpoos]

there's plenty wrong with the classes. The original concept of F1, F2 and F3 have been destroyed and the manufacturers now own the premium class instead of competing in real; production classes where the racing is cheaper and we can actually judge which is the better production bike.

The bikes you see the winners on bear only a farcical resemblence to what you can buy from the shops.



Ummm...not really up with current thinking are ya bud??

I think you will find the riders have little issuse with the current Production superbikes supersport classes...

you keep reiterating this point...F1 F2 classes were not as level playing feild as they are now...there was to much unataniuim!! special parts that only big $$ can buy...or special factory backings.

Current rules means anyone can get the same parts as the top guys! and access to the same back up and support.

Also..what its good on the track...is usually a polar opposite to whats good on the road!!

[idleidolidyll]

no, current rules mean that anyone with lots of money can get anything the others are using.

there's quite a difference

[cowpoos]

no, current rules mean that anyone with lots of money can get anything the others are using.

there's quite a difference

do explain in that case?? You have made a statement...with no credentials!!