100% responsibility [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

Ixion

28th March 2008, 16:57

I take a slightly different approach though the end result is probably the same

I consider that every time I leave home I have a job of work to do, which is to get myself and the bike to my destination safely and expeditiously.

There will no doubt be various factors and problems I will meet with along the way that may make that job more or less problematic. No matter, it is my task to deal with them, one way or another, so that they do not affect my primary task. Some of them may be hazards of the road: gravel, diesel, nasty corners. Others may be human hazards: idiot drivers not giving way, cops, soccer Moms etc. I certainly am not responsible for what they may do, but, none the less, I must make sure that whatever they do, I still get my job done. Because no-one else will do it for me.

I can draw a close analogy to a military operation. A commanding officer may say to one of his officers 'Your task is to get yourself and the men in your command over to Hill99 as fast as possible, without any casualties'

If that officer were to reply 'But, Sir, there are enemy troops out there. They may shoot at us. I can't take responsibility for that. And the battlefield is muddy. And there may be mines or other hazards, I can't be responsible for those either', I wonder what his CO's response would be ?

I rather think something along the lines of 'I don't give a damn about all that, that's your job to deal with it. Just get on and do it and stop whining about it not being your responsibility'.

yungatart

28th March 2008, 17:02

Some on here do ride with that attitude.
Some on here take full responsibility for their riding.
Some on here have "good", "safe", "responsible", "mature" attitudes to their riding.
It will never happen that all motorcyclists do, human nature has seen to that...

merv

28th March 2008, 17:04

Its exactly what defensive driving training for cage drivers is all about isn't it, so sure, same principle applies for bikers.

Usarka

28th March 2008, 17:17

Yep - you may not necessarilly be "at fault" but you should understand the risks and deal with it. every fecker is out to get you including yourself.

onearmedbandit

28th March 2008, 18:55

Of course we would all like to have that attitude. For the most part I do. But what about these circumstances:

Riding through town at a speed applicable to the conditions, aware of all your surroundings etc. Go through an intersection, buildings blocking your view so much that to be sure no one runs a red light you would have to stop and check both ways. Sure enough, a car runs a red and takes you out.

Riding in a dual lane road, concentrating on riding, observing everything around you as best you can without taking concentration away from actually riding. A car that had previously been travelling in the lane next to you suudenly veers across and takes you out.

And there could be lots more examples. In every one of my accidents I could've blamed other conditions, but have realised that I was the one who was in control. I'm just lucky enough not to have been in any of the above examples before.

All I'm saying is that we should do everything to ensure our safety, but to do it 100% of the time would mean either never taking the bike out of the garage or only riding when there are no other road users around.

ElCoyote

28th March 2008, 19:32

Responsible for others actions whether on a bike or car....NO...They are out of my control....

I control what I ride like. Or how I ride...Therefore that is something that I contol and will be responsible for...

My oar has just entered ther water and perhaps I am saying what you are saying, Indeed control your own enviroment but you also control the enviroment of others by "anticipating what they are liable to do" and positioning yourself accordingly. I am not trying to be flippant but, instead of watching for indicators, or lack thereof, watch the body language of the driver. For most drivers, any manoeuvre is an afterthought and looking at a fender in anticipation of a signal from God will get you killed. Many trucks display a sign, "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you", yet drivers (both 2 and 4 wheel) look at the body of the other vehicle, hoping for divine intervention and are unpleasantly surprised by the lack of response.

I owned and operated a Taxi for 24 years and did not even have so much as a scrape on any vehice I owned.....BUT.....I have also owned, raced and ridden bikes since I was 15.

Unfortunately money cannot buy experience and I sympathise with those who get hurt because they "did not get experience" straight off. I will admit to being lucky several/many times, but with each "lucky event" the memory banks swelled and I can now "smell" trouble from 100 metres. My advice to all and sundry would be this: Plan your journey and dont EXPECT to exit a multi lane road (Motorway) at the last minute without repurcusions to yourself or other motorists, just because you thought you could overtake "just one more car" before you made that turn.

When you leave home, anticipate your journey and select the appropriate lane as early as possible. Despite the fact you my percieve that other lanes are moving faster ("at the time) you will save time by remaining in your exit lane. While doing so, observe the fuckwits that are forced to change lanes at the last minute and bring the motorway to a crawl. IS THIS YOU.

Instead of criticising others, observe the faults you are critising others for and ask the question DO I DO THIS I can guarantee you do but are in denial.

Conclusion: Anticipate..................Plan...............Thi nk ahead...........concentrate..........and best of all, when lightning strikes........DON'T PANIC. If you observe the above, you will have anticipated 99.9% of any situation that will confront you and react accordingly, while there is still every chance of reducing an incident into a "Thank God". Try it and see. A biker that was/is/has been a cager is significantly less likely to cause a problem to any other road user than the current crop of fuckwits the LTSA deems suitable to hold a licence.

Unless an oncoming driver suffers a system failure and "collides with you" there is no such thing as an accident. It is an incident, despite what the LTsA attempts to include into their smoke screen of "SPEED/ALCOHOL" Mantra.

This is a brief account of what is wrong on our roads. Long letter to follow. :clap:

Ixion

28th March 2008, 20:08

All I'm saying is that we should do everything to ensure our safety, but to do it 100% of the time would mean either never taking the bike out of the garage or only riding when there are no other road users around.

Indeed so. No one can be perfect. But it can the target we set.

Go back to my military analogy.

It is of no use for 2nd Lt Ixion to whine to his CO that 'he cannot be responsible for the enemy shooting at him'. He will told to HTFU and remember that he is a King's Officer.

So he goes out, and gets his men safely through to Hill 99. Despite the enemy snipers , the mud and the landmines

And , again, the next day ditto.

But , sooner or later , perhaps, he will run out of luck and despatchs for the day will record the sad fact that 2nd Lt Ixion, while leading his platoon was targeted by enemy nebelwerfers and he and his platoon were blown to Kindom Come. But, at least, he tried. You can always try.

And maybe the campaign ends before those damn nebelwerfers arrive and the gallant subaltern is posted back to Blighty all in one piece

We can always try

And end of the day, no-one out there gives a fuck if you live or die. Except you. So best to leave the job to the only person who cares about it , eh?

McJim

28th March 2008, 20:17

Is not this exactly the same principle which Mr Katman has been reaping much abuse for proposing ?
He's not reaping abuse for that principle at all. He's reaping abuse for the way he talks down his nose to some bikers who already take responsibility for their actions, the way they ride and their choice of underpowered bikes.

Patronising is the word I seek methinks.

I got hit by a car (I went through a green light and she went through a red) and learned my lesson over a year ago.

Usarka

28th March 2008, 20:20

I got hit by a car (I went through a green light and she went through a red) and learned my lesson over a year ago.

what, get out of the north island? :yes:

Mikkel

28th March 2008, 20:30

Ultimately *I* choose to get on that bike. I do so knowing the inherent risks and strive to anticipate and counter each and every risk that I encounter on my way.

No amount of premonition and planning is ever going to save your arse if your number is up!

When you leave home, anticipate your journey and select the appropriate lane as early as possible. Despite the fact you my percieve that other lanes are moving faster ("at the time) you will save time by remaining in your exit lane. While doing so, observe the fuckwits that are forced to change lanes at the last minute and bring the motorway to a crawl. IS THIS YOU.

While I agree with your post and was about to bling you for it and compliment you on great choice of motorcycle. I have to say that what I highlighted is absolutely bollocks!

Unless you are passing anyone STAY LEFT! If you're in a slow moving vehicle STAY LEFT! If there's ANY space WHATSOEVER - STAY LEFT! Do NOT change lane to turn right earlier than one block before your turn off. If traffic is light it is easy. If traffic is heavy there will be plenty of time anyway...

I am sorry but Kiwis need to understand how a dual carriage way works! It's not about creating a rolling roadblock or selecting the "appropriate" lane 5 km in advance. Dual carriageways are usually put in place in a - albeit unrealistic - hope to help resolve large volumes of traffic.

He's not reaping abuse for that principle at all. He's reaping abuse for the way he talks down his nose to some bikers who already take responsibility for their actions, the way they ride and their choice of underpowered bikes.

Patronising is the word I seek methinks.

I think I can agree with that :niceone:

CookMySock

28th March 2008, 21:07

No amount of premonition and planning is ever going to save your arse if your number is up!eh ? "your number is up" is a cliche - and certainly not a concise description of anything meaningful whatsoever - how is it possible that planning will not assist with staying alive, but a cliche will kill you ?

I have to say that what I highlighted is absolutely bollocks!cough, re-read.. the guy drove taxis for twenty-something years and never marked one.. I think that counts for a lot.. if anything some respect, if not that, then politeness is in order.

DB

James Deuce

28th March 2008, 21:13

Most people don't try to accept responsibility for the outcome of an event and when the chips are really down, 99% of the vocal supporters of the concept of total responsibility will do anything rather than accept that they were less than perfect and screwed up. It's always someone else's fault, and "they" should do something to stop the someone else who was at fault from ever doing it again.

Total waste of time to expect any motorcyclists to really believe that they are/were to blame for any event even partially. People keep offering up the example of the red light runner "taking you out". Why did it happen. There can be many reasons, from skipping breakfast and having low blood sugar and therefore a sluggish brain, to a relationship break up affecting your judgment because you're obsessing about what a loser you are.

Most motorcyclists ride bikes because they are in essence risk takers and they want their fix irrespective of whether or not they are in the zone and ready to cope. I've had a rough couple of weeks commuting. It's been nerve racking. Because I'm really tired from working those 12-18 hour days and I've been actively having to participate in commuter traffic instead of flowing through it like it isn't there. My reaction times are probably less than half a second slower than normal, but if I get taken out during my morning commute rest assured it's my fault. 100%. I know I'm rooted, but I'm still riding.

I need my fix.

Kickaha

28th March 2008, 22:00

Unless you are passing anyone STAY LEFT! If you're in a slow moving vehicle STAY LEFT! If there's ANY space WHATSOEVER - STAY LEFT! Do NOT change lane to turn right earlier than one block before your turn off. If traffic is light it is easy. If traffic is heavy there will be plenty of time anyway...

There is no requirement under NZ road rules to keep left,unless it is a passing lane BUT THERE FUCKING SHOULD BE:angry2:

yungatart

28th March 2008, 22:04

There is no requirement under NZ road rules to keep left,unless it is a passing lane BUT THERE FUCKING SHOULD BE:angry2:

What rule book are you reading from? Mine quite clearly states...Keep Left!

mstriumph

28th March 2008, 22:20

...... What would happen if we all rode with the ATTITUDE that we are 100% responsible for what happens to us on our bikes?.............

I ride that way
I live that way

mstriumph

28th March 2008, 22:22

................. 99% of the vocal supporters of the concept of total responsibility will do anything rather than accept that they were less than perfect and screwed up. ..............

then that makes me a one percenter!!! :rolleyes:

sheesh - does that mean i'm gonna hafta get tatts and shave my head? :(

Mikkel

28th March 2008, 22:22

eh ? "your number is up" is a cliche - and certainly not a concise description of anything meaningful whatsoever - how is it possible that planning will not assist with staying alive, but a cliche will kill you ?

cough, re-read.. the guy drove taxis for twenty-something years and never marked one.. I think that counts for a lot.. if anything some respect, if not that, then politeness is in order.

DB

Mate, I need your badge number... :D

Anyway, take the time and re-read what I posted and then come back and tell me exactly WHICH part you disagree with!
The only thing I called bullocks on was his way of handling lane selection, and I take it that Elcoyote has been driving taxis in NZ - otherwise his opinion would have been DIFFERENT - trust me on that. Besides, calling bullocks would never constitute a breach of politeness IMHO.

And trust me on the "when your number is up" - you can do a lot to minimise the probability of your number coming up, but you just can not eliminate it. Whatever happens, happens! - that is my philosophy and believe me, you can not possibly fault it...

I don't know if I need to elaborate - but you do at times come across as being, with all due respect, rather dense (sorry, that is the wine talking again). Planning is not going to do you any good when facing the unexpected!

There is no requirement under NZ road rules to keep left,unless it is a passing lane BUT THERE FUCKING SHOULD BE:angry2:

Yes, it is fucking frustrating! :yes:

Mikkel

28th March 2008, 22:24

then that makes me a one percenter!!! :rolleyes:

sheesh - does that mean i'm gonna hafta get tatts and shave my head? :(

Good on ya! :)

According to statistics there should be about 110 of us on this site then :yes:

onearmedbandit

28th March 2008, 22:34

People keep offering up the example of the red light runner "taking you out". Why did it happen. There can be many reasons, from skipping breakfast and having low blood sugar and therefore a sluggish brain, to a relationship break up affecting your judgment because you're obsessing about what a loser you are.

I must be one of the 1%'ers as well, as from my few off's I've owned responsibility on each and every one. Period. However Jim2 not matter how much you would like to think that we are in control of everything, we unfortunately are not. I'm going to pick up on the red light thing, as you mentioned it. Lets say, in this example at least, that the cage driver was being pursued by the Police and was traveling at 140km /h when he entered the intersection, leaving you a fraction of a second to see him, no time to react. I doubt even the most alert, aware, most on to it rider could accept responsibility for that one, except maybe to say 'I wish I had never got on the bike this morning'.

I applaud what you are saying, I follow it myself as best I can. I don't know whether your aim is to try and convince people that they are in control at all times so that they believe it, or whether you actually believe yourself. But myself, I'm a realist and I know that not everything is in our hands (or hand).

Deano

28th March 2008, 22:40

Yawn yawn yawn. Repost.

I ride within my limits 99.9% of the time. I accept a bit of risk in life.

Hope I haven't jinxed myself. It's been a while between offs.

Mikkel

28th March 2008, 22:41

I applaud what you are saying, I follow it myself as best I can. I don't know whether your aim is to try and convince people that they are in control at all times so that they believe it, or whether you actually believe yourself. But myself, I'm a realist and I know that not everything is in our hands (or hand).

I dare guess that Jim is a realist! :yes:

Anyone who lives an active life beyond the age of 25 will encounter reality at least a couple of times - and a sobering experience it is.

However, life needs to be lived and we need to at least contemplate the risks and consequences our choices may have.

James Deuce

28th March 2008, 23:09

What rule book are you reading from? Mine quite clearly states...Keep Left!

There's no punishment for not keeping left. Each lane on a dual carriageway or motorway in NZ is a highway in its own right, so there is no incentive to move into the left lane after completing a passing move.

Mikkel

28th March 2008, 23:15

There's no punishment for not keeping left. Each lane on a dual carriageway or motorway in NZ is a highway in its own right, so there is no incentive to move into the left lane after completing a passing move.

Except displaying consideration and common sense - virtues that are sadly lacking in this day and age! :yes:

James Deuce

28th March 2008, 23:30

I must be one of the 1%'ers as well, as from my few off's I've owned responsibility on each and every one. Period. However Jim2 not matter how much you would like to think that we are in control of everything, we unfortunately are not. I'm going to pick up on the red light thing, as you mentioned it. Lets say, in this example at least, that the cage driver was being pursued by the Police and was traveling at 140km /h when he entered the intersection, leaving you a fraction of a second to see him, no time to react. I doubt even the most alert, aware, most on to it rider could accept responsibility for that one, except maybe to say 'I wish I had never got on the bike this morning'.

I applaud what you are saying, I follow it myself as best I can. I don't know whether your aim is to try and convince people that they are in control at all times so that they believe it, or whether you actually believe yourself. But myself, I'm a realist and I know that not everything is in our hands (or hand).

It's really hard to have this discussion when people firmly seal their ears and eyes and insist that they aren't ever responsible for being part of an incident.

Pilot error for instance can be a huge huge number of things and everyone thinks that identifying those circumstances that lead to the "pilot error" in a specific case can only be a good thing in terms of improving the safety of air travel.

Bikers just want to point at everyone else and say it was their fault and I'm not interested in looking at it any other way or learning from the chain of events that lead to me to be nailed by a Police car entering an Intersection at 140 km/hr. Which I've NEVER seen incidentally. It's more likely to be a Courier or a Bus that rampantly runs a red at highly inappropriate speed.

If you are reacting to your surroundings you've already lost the fight. Your brain can only do 20km/hr. Anything over that is a combination of planning and experience. The biggest contributing factor in any incident is traveling at more than 20 km/hr, and that goes for show jumping, tricycle races, and kite flying. But no biker EVER even considers that they are wildly outside the electro-chemical capabilities of their body on even an urban road. No one in any vehicle does. You've already flagged the whole idea of personal responsibility by exceeding the physical limits of the human body.

But you offset those limitations with skill and experience and planning and you assume that everyone else does. They don't. Nor do they ever accept that they are totally responsible for the damage they do to other people irrespective of who is in the right or wrong.

There's an attitude shift that needs to happen in this particular sphere of influence. The road toll is essentially static because cars have gotten safer but skill levels haven't improved, because most drivers don't care that their skills aren't good enough to avoid hurting other people, because when they strap the metal box on, the passengers, drivers, and riders of other vehicles become depersonalised. Inhuman and therefore a challenge to be surmounted. Not a charming, beautiful, pleasant human being to cherish, but a target to be eliminated, a hated opponent to crush.

You guys don't get the huge scope of personal responsibility, you don't want to contemplate it, you don't want to learn about its implications, and you don't want to apply it. It might limit your fun, the competition of driving on the road, and the chance to vanquish foes on a daily basis.

When you get on a bike with an arm in a cast, a fresh appendectomy scar, and a throbbing hangover, you've basically said I don't give a fuck, it's everybody else's fault if I have an accident.

James Deuce

28th March 2008, 23:33

Except displaying consideration and common sense - virtues that are sadly lacking in this day and age! :yes:
They're not lacking at all. It's just the average Kiwi becomes a total cunt on the road.

swbarnett

28th March 2008, 23:34

onearmedbandit

29th March 2008, 00:06

Selective reading Jim. Have a look at some of my posts, I have owned every one of my crashes, ahhh forget it, you'll read what you want to and believe what you want to. Don't go assuming anything about me. Don't want to contemplate it. FFS, I live every day with a reminder how I fucked up 10yrs ago. No one else, me. I'm fine with that. Maybe you are actually not.

How about this one? I remember reading a Two Wheels magazine a number of years back now, I can't remember the scribe but it was 'stories' they have in the back of the magazine from the staff writers. The author was telling a story of being out on a ride once, him and his wife and his mate and his wife. Matey was in front coming up a hill just about to come over a brow when lo and behold a tour bus was overtaking another vehicle in the opposite direction ih his lane. So picture it, just as you come over the brow there is a tour bus directly in front of you. You're doing say 90-100km/h, bus doing say 70-80km/h. Both matey and his wife were killed in the impact. Are you suggesting that the rider was responsible for that crash? That he could've taken action to avoid it? Like what, get off his bike first and inspect that there is no oncoming bus in his lane?

Fatjim

29th March 2008, 06:50

I'm sorry, but this sport of talk is futile and boring. It smacks of the same totalitarian logic that the government use to say how often speed is a factor in deaths.

You can always say someone could have done something different, just like you could say that if someone was driving at a different speed a particular accident wouldn't have happened, but often neither is usefull, and more often this type of over analysis is detrimental to determining and fixing the real causes of accidents.

Sure, ride defensively, ride like noboby has seen you, take controll of your own safety, but in the end your number can still come up, dispite all your risk avoidance, because you are not the only human on the road, and dispite your best efforts, there is always someone lurking out there who is able so completely fuck things up that the only safe place for you is home in bed.

FROSTY

29th March 2008, 08:50

McJim

29th March 2008, 09:32

Guys whats allarming me is that the people participating in this discussion-(Barr 1) are people who have a few years riding experience under our belts.
I guess stupidly my target audience is the 0-2 year riding experience people.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. The people who most need to learn to take responsibility are the ones least likley to pay attention to a thread about responsibility. Maybe you need to re-title the thread "Radical Sick Bikie boys on crotch rockets" and then you'll have their attention.

I think as longas the mesage keeps getting out there from time to time in a non-accusatory and non patronising manner the message will sink in for more riders.

Keep up the good work Frosty, Jim2 and Katman.

CookMySock

29th March 2008, 09:49

Guys whats allarming me is that the people participating in this discussion-(Barr 1) are people who have a few years riding experience under our belts.It's not so much about riding or driving experience, it's more about the underlying acceptance (or not) that we are in control of our own destiny. Many people have been conditioned to believe that they are along for the ride - and they take what life deals to them. Others dictate to their life what it will be.

When these types of beliefs are so deeply embedded, they are not immeditely obvious to either party, (in particular the person who believes they have no control) so the result is usually an argument of jihad preportions, as each team bash the other into submission on account that they are so blind.

For myself, I am surprised that I bother typing all this crap into a web site somewhere on the net.. maybe I do care that others get it.. or maybe I should just get back to figuring out what to do about my overly firm suspension, or how and when to get a race bike, or how to lose another kilo off my fat arse.

I am rather amazed to see people bash katman so resoundly, complete with insults and veiled threats, where in this thread they are strangely on-topic and supportive of the concept. It seems to me, that in person, kiwis are a perfectly nice bunch, yet behind the keyboard is similar to on the road - overtly brave, rude, dominant, and dangerous. It's kinda damning isn't it. :(

DB

Sully60

29th March 2008, 10:15

Sure, ride defensively, ride like noboby has seen you, take controll of your own safety, .

I agree with this and Frostys 100% responsibility message.
I have had more than my fair share of accidents, or sorry "incidents" on the road and the race track, in all of them it was entirely the situation I had put myself in that resulted in my outcome.

Like Mr Miagi say: "Best way to avoid blow is to not be there when it lands"

They're not lacking at all. It's just the average Kiwi becomes a total cunt on the road. .

I agree with this statement also and I would tend to say the percentage total of cunts to considerate road users is on the increase.
And the scary thing is this applies to more than just road users.

but in the end your number can still come up, dispite all your risk avoidance, because you are not the only human on the road.

Exactley, you can take into account some or most of the actions of other people some or most of the time but not all of them all the time.

This isn't a particularly great example but think back to when that guy was killed by some animal who threw a lump of concrete of a motorway overpass.

He would have had some exceptional situational awareness skills to avoid that one, like staying away from Auckland in the firstplace.

That's as stupid as it sounds but like FJ says how far do you take it?

Ixion

29th March 2008, 12:39

I think there is a massive confusion generally between the concepts of control, and responsibility.

No matter how good, defensive, experienced, cautious a rider is there are some things he cannot control or predict. Someone mentioned the lump of rock thrown from a bridge. I recall an incident where a motorcyclist was riding innocently along and a tree branch broke off and fell on his head, killing him.

Do what you will, there are factors outside our control or ability to predict. Eventually any rider may find himself caught in a situation that could not have been avoided , cannot be eliminated. Worst case, that may kill him.

Moreover, we are all human. All of us will make mistakes from time to time. Of commission (going too fast into the corner); of ommission (I didn't notice that car was not going to give way).

But what we CAN do is accept responsibility for our own safety. To me that means rejecting, totally, the concept that "someone else ought to". The other driver ought to give way; the council ought to clear the gravel off the road; the dealer ought to have fitted better tyres.

Accepting responsibility for one's own safety means accepting that NO-one else will (even if they ought to). So, I must do it. The other driver WILL pull out in front of me. My job to deal with it. The council WILL leave gravel on the roads . My job to deal with it. Trucks WILL park on the far side of blind corners. My job to deal with it.

Noone else. Just me. Because saying "He ought to " when you're lying in agony on the road is pointless.

Accept that no-one will do what you think they ought to. Accept that it is your responsibility to get there safely. Eventually, maybe , something will happen that you can't deal with. Shit happens.You can only do what you can. But, it is up to YOU to do that, noone else.

FROSTY

29th March 2008, 13:11

yea what he ^^^^^^^ said
One story constantly comes to mind is the one Im probably gonna misquote
Yep Ol Jimmy is the rightest guy in the cemetary/hospital.
Being "right" don't keep ya alive

Okey Dokey

29th March 2008, 13:26

This reminds me of Jim2's recent thread about attitude. I think it is important to be in the right frame of mind when riding. I like to focus myself while putting on my gear: leathers, boots, gloves, helmet. Getting ready to be fully aware of what you are about to face out on the road.

Part of that, for me, is realising the relative risks of motorcycling and using my brain/experience to minimise these risks.

ElCoyote

30th March 2008, 19:38

There is no requirement under NZ road rules to keep left,unless it is a passing lane BUT THERE FUCKING SHOULD BE:angry2:

I have emerged from my underground bunker complete with white flag and iodine tablets expecting to see the landscape smoking, oblitereted and cratered. Well done guys and guyesses.

Just a wee addemdum though, it is an offence to "FAIL TO KEEP AS NEAR LEFT AS PRACTICABLE" This can be mitigated on a motorway by saying you were overtaking. It just took you from Market Rd to Drury to do so. Perhaps the consequences of exceeding 100kph has many people confused and/or scared. If they listen to the mantra of the LTsA often enough maybe so.

Courtesy would say to me to pull left when able and allow those who wish to travel faster to clear your space and then if the need is still there pop back out.

Serioulsy, what moves traffic more effectively: 3 lanes, full to capacity all moving at the same speed or, 3 lanes with the traffic in each moving at the speed they are comfortable with. If that means cars on the outer lane moving at 110-120kph so be it, is it not better to let water find it's own level than have the faucet wound back on each lane so it is follow the leader with an associated increase in nose to tails.

Again, it is an offence to fail to keep as far left as practicable but this is negated by the lack of enforcement. Sorry must return to the bunker before the Gubbmint read this. I have enough food for 2 weeks don't worry about me. :devil2:

Fatjim

30th March 2008, 19:45

Keeping left isn't a safety issue, but a consideration for others issue, this is outwieghed in a motorcycles case by safety, where sitting in the right hand of the left lane is the safest place to be NORMALLY.

doc

30th March 2008, 19:52

Im asking the question --what would happen if.........?
and its not the fact Im thinking of more the ATTITUDE

It's not the attitude it's a fact of life, you get on a bike and do something other than nana along on it . You have to accept the responsiblity you fall off it its your fault. You chose to ride a bike in the wet and you have to accept the consequences. What people can't understand is those consequences can involve serious injuries just from a blow to the head. You don't have to look messy, to be unable to operate your playstation effectively ever again.

Jacko2

31st March 2008, 06:10

I know this has been floated in different ways lately BUT.
What would happen if we all rode with the ATTITUDE that we are 100% responsible for what happens to us on our bikes?
So that fuckwit in the car that just pulled out in front of ya.
You ride in a way that stops you hitting him.
Ditto other road hazards
Could it work? would it change how you ride on the road?

Ironic that I was read this thread on Friday then had an OFF on Saturday.

I had to nurse my bike (80km) home after. Amazing what the mind does after a shot of adreneline.

Anyhoo, after another day of reflection, I have concluded that, I expose myself to this risk by choosing to ride a motorcycle. I sort of knew this already, but an 'event' does clarify ones thoughts.

At the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered who's fault it was if I, the other guy or both of us were dead.

Because I'm not, I feel I have had another warning I should listen to.

I think if we had the 100% attitude, a few more of us may survive. Alas, we (humans) have egos. (IE: I own a bike capable of 250kph, why?)

Frosty, to answer your question I say YES.

CookMySock

31st March 2008, 06:36

Ironic that I was read this thread on Friday then had an OFF on Saturday.owch, hoping ur ok bud.

I have concluded that, I expose myself to this risk by choosing to ride a motorcycle.not exactly - take a look at the chain of events before your off - keywords "mindset, dehydration, speed, worried" etc some or all may not apply - add your own. It isn't the motorcycle that is the issue, it is the nut on the steering you see.

I sort of knew this already, but an 'event' does clarify ones thoughts. I think you just said "I believed this would happen and now I know it was true to begin with". Be careful with what you believe, because it will come to pass whether you like it or not.

DB

Deviant Esq

31st March 2008, 07:32

Unfortunately money cannot buy experience and I sympathise with those who get hurt because they "did not get experience" straight off. I will admit to being lucky several/many times, but with each "lucky event" the memory banks swelled and I can now "smell" trouble from 100 metres.

*snip*
In this way, I'm quite glad that I didn't start riding bikes when I was 15 or 16, and indeed, wasn't interested in bikes at the time either. But I started driving a car at 15 and have been driving ever since, so when I did get interested in bikes and started riding after my 23rd birthday, I had already amassed a fair bit of knowledge and situational 'feel' of what some clots behind the wheel get up to. That knowledge has stood me in good stead in biking and being a learner rider... like ElCoyote I've had some close calls (most of us have), but I've always been able to avoid a car pulling out in front of me or not giving way, because I've had a feeling it might happen, saw that it did, and because I'd adjusted, had enough time / room to avoid it. Not saying that it'll never happen, but in this way, I haven't had to be 'lucky' to avoid having a crash.

Jacko2

31st March 2008, 16:34

owch, hoping ur ok bud.

Yeah, good thanks. A bike is replaceable, I'm not haha.......................

{not exactly - take a look at the chain of events before your off - keywords "mindset, dehydration, speed, worried" etc some or all may not apply - add your own. It isn't the motorcycle that is the issue, it is the nut on the steering you see.}

This is what I reflected on going home and the rest of that day.
On reflection, I was very surprised to be taken out as TEC. Possibly less alert.
Granted, it is the steerer, however "I" choose to ride a motorcycle and not something that has a (safety) cage around it.
(Incidentally it works both ways. If I'd been in a cage I would have killed the guy on the Quad parked in the middle of the road, as it was being on a bike I managed to 'almost' miss him)

{I think you just said "I believed this would happen and now I know it was true to begin with". Be careful with what you believe, because it will come to pass whether you like it or not.}

What I meant was, I know I expose myself to more risk by riding a bike than not. I am prepared to do that, so take responsibility for my decision.

Appreciate your feedback, I think it is good to reflect. The subject known as 'History' taught in schools, should be renamed "Lessons Learnt'.
Cheers, JACKO

DB.........................................

Jacko2

31st March 2008, 16:40

Sorry, ballsed-up the quote thingy. It's all there somewhere. Dah!

Badjelly

31st March 2008, 16:41

Jacko2

31st March 2008, 16:50

And yet, again and again, you will find people on KB saying, "I had an accident and it was my fault" or "I had an accident and it was some other guy's fault, but if I'd been more careful or reacted more appropriately I might have come out better" or "I had an accident, what did I do wrong?".

Badjelly, I'm not being a smartass, but I'm getting 'mixed messages'.
Can you elaborate a bit. What in your opinion should thay do?

Badjelly

31st March 2008, 17:13

Badjelly, I'm not being a smartass, but I'm getting 'mixed messages'. Can you elaborate a bit. What in your opinion should they do?

I knew that title was asking for trouble. (It just reflects the fact that I'm a middle-aged Pakeha male whose avatar is a green-skinned frog and whose forum name is a witch, probably also green-skinned.)

I'm not speculating on what they should do, I was just responding to Jim2's statement (a few posts back) that people never admit responsibility, by pointing out that on KB they frequently do.

Jacko2

31st March 2008, 20:52

I knew that title was asking for trouble. (It just reflects the fact that I'm a middle-aged Pakeha male whose avatar is a green-skinned frog and whose forum name is a witch, probably also green-skinned.)

I'm not speculating on what they should do, I was just responding to Jim2's statement (a few posts back) that people never admit responsibility, by pointing out that on KB they frequently do.

Ahh, OK, cool.

Nagash

31st March 2008, 21:45

Ironic that I was read this thread on Friday then had an OFF on Saturday.

I have never seen someone as humble as you were after a bin on a bike.. even when the guy was clearly at fault.

Glad to hear you made it home alright, no hidden injuries that cropped up later?

---

I reckon the 100% responsibility mindset does keep people safer.

As Big Dog drills into people on training days, it's all about keeping as many options open as you can. So if you come round a corner into an 'Oh Shit!' moment, your have more resources to draw upon to get yourself out of it safely. Whether it being the skills to stop while fully leaned over, or wearing the correct protective gear for if you do bin.

I like to think I have a bit of this attitude, but admittedly do go riding on occasion thinking, if that guy pulls out on me (and they always do) and I crash into the back of him, i'm gonna so pissed at him. When really I could just listen to myself knowing that he IS going to pull out on me an dslow down or use the horn or swing to the right more, etc. etc.

I reckon it's a good attitude to have.. though it's not gonna happen. People just have to take it upon themselves, whether they feel it's important or not.

Jacko2

31st March 2008, 22:08

I have never seen someone as humble as you were after a bin on a bike.. even when the guy was clearly at fault.

Glad to hear you made it home alright, no hidden injuries that cropped up later?

---

I reckon the 100% responsibility mindset does keep people safer.

As Big Dog drills into people on training days, it's all about keeping as many options open as you can. So if you come round a corner into an 'Oh Shit!' moment, your have more resources to draw upon to get yourself out of it safely. Whether it being the skills to stop while fully leaned over, or wearing the correct protective gear for if you do bin.

I like to think I have a bit of this attitude, but admittedly do go riding on occasion thinking, if that guy pulls out on me (and they always do) and I crash into the back of him, i'm gonna so pissed at him. When really I could just listen to myself knowing that he IS going to pull out on me an dslow down or use the horn or swing to the right more, etc. etc.

I reckon it's a good attitude to have.. though it's not gonna happen. People just have to take it upon themselves, whether they feel it's important or not.

Cheers Josh, alls good thanks.
I think the old girl is really a closet naked/streetfighter all along.

A bit off topic but, yes the practise we've had with Bigdog saved my ass.
I did everything automatic, no time to think just did it.
I don't get angry very often, and the old guy was in shock. Glad I didn't kill him. Sorry for any dumb/inane attempts at humour. You guys all did and said the right things at the time. Weren't those neighbours great? I'm gonna run a bottle of wine out to each of them when I go get payment for my new helmet.

On Topic Again: Yeah I think we have to be aware of our part in things, but not to sweat on it. Obviously do as much as you can, defensive driving, skills practise etc. but don't get hung-up on it or you won't enjoy riding anymore.

Hope to see ya at practise, can't do enough.