Front number plates on West Island

[Animal]

G'day y'all,

The Victoria state government (who are notoriously anti-motorcyle) are pushing for a law change that will see front number plates being made compulsory on bikes. They are also proposing that this change happens in all states.

The local media are in a frenzied war of words, with the Victoria politicians claiming (unsurprisingly) that this will reduce the temptation that riders face to speed - and therefore lower the death toll. Having a plate on the front of your bike will mean you can be positively identified in camera speed traps, so you're going to lose the desire to speed. Truly.

Countering this are the riders groups, saying it has less to do with the road toll and more to do with gathering revenue. It is being argued that camera traps taken pic of the back of speeding vehicles, so they are questioning the benefit of having a plate on the front of bikes. Also, the small proportion of motorcycles in the overall traffic numbers makes this proposal even more questionable.

There is a lot of concern about how plates would be mounted, and who stands to make the most revenue in providing 'approved' brackets, etc. (No prizes for guessing.) There are some safety concerns, and the fact that they'd be hard to standardise as the front of bikes are highly varied. Sticker on fairings, tin plates on brackets? Who knows? The Victoria brains trust don't have those answers either.

Another contentious topic regarding front plates is the privately managed toll roads throughout Oz. The road operators want to be damned sure that they're not going to lose a dime on tolls - and gate-runners (read: motorcyclists) would be less inclined to sneak past the booms and race off without paying the toll. They are pressuring the government to help them in not losing money - some if which is paid back in tax. Corruption? Surely not!

So far, this proposal is still that - a proposal, but previous proposals have led to stupid ideas (like cheesecutter barriers throughout Oz). What concerns me is that NZ politicians tend to copy some of Oz's less-intelligent ideas, particularly in regard to bikes. So, if you aren't already doing so, keep an eye on the Oz bike magazines and media, because this dumb-arse idea is gaining support in all the wrong sectors of Oz society. If it goes ahead here, it's highly likely that yet another arsehole idea is about to find its way into the head of some tit in the Beehive.

Remember, speed is the sole cause for every fatality - irrespective of the facts. We have reason to be concerned.

[Nasty]

When did they become anti motorcycle ... when we were there last year they had to best parking laws around for bikes ... I agree with what is said is the revenue gathering ... as that appears to be the truth ... all of there set for using the 'pay' motorways have cameras photograh the front of the car ... having no front plate bikes get away with not paying ...

[Grahameeboy]

From memory when bikes had front plates they were mounted on the front guard and could only be seen from the side plus they would need the rego on both sides which would cause problems with NZ plates which have the rego pressed into the plate plus how many camera's take side shots.

They would have to get around the standard size issue. On sports bikes they oten have twin headlights so I reckon the plate would be smaller and you could not really have different size plates depending on whether they were naked / sports bike...

Manufacturer's are not going to re-design bikes just for markets that required front plates

I mean take a GSX1400....no where to place a plate

Would having headlights on prevent a clear shot of a front plate anyway.

Whilst I agree that we should not benefit from having no front plate, I just cannot see how they are going to do it

[Motu]

From memory when bikes had front plates they were mounted on the front guard and could only be seen from the side


When the Australian's previously had front plates they were mounted cross ways to be visible from the front - they were hideous! I would think they are thinking of doing the same this time around too.

[pete376403]

Victoria is held as a paradigm of excellence by transit / ltsa / ministry of transport.

" We realise that there are several countries where wire-rope barriers are not favoured. But there are many others where they continue to be promoted, for example, Sweden and Australia (Victoria), whose approaches to road safety are held up as a good model for other countries to follow."

ie if they follow Victorias methods it removes the requirement to do any independant thinking.

[Ixion]

Every year this gets raised in Oz. And every year, answer is the same.

'Cos of liability and stuff, they can't mount a rigid number plate on the front unless the bike maker will certify that it won't dangerously upset stability. None of them will so certify. (and stick ons wont work on naked bikes !)

And, sheeple being sheeple, they insist that there must be one and only one mounting place and method. Which then falls over because of the difference between faired and unfaired etc.

[Animal]

I work with a guy who grew up in Singapore. Apparently, only India and Singapore have front plates. Bikes with fairings or screens of any description get stickers to paste on, everything else gets a tin plate, mounted transversely (and creating an effective air-brake).

It astounds me that Oz would want to emulate such highly advanced countries such as these two in terms of vehicle policy. However, we'll wait and see, while petitioning furiously against the introduction of such a dumb-arse idea.

[Animal]

Victoria is held as a paradigm of excellence by transit / ltsa / ministry of transport.

" We realise that there are several countries where wire-rope barriers are not favoured. But there are many others where they continue to be promoted, for example, Sweden and Australia (Victoria), whose approaches to road safety are held up as a good model for other countries to follow."

ie if they follow Victorias methods it removes the requirement to do any independant thinking.

Which would not surprise me in the slightest.

[Animal]

...I agree with what is said is the revenue gathering ... as that appears to be the truth ... all of there set for using the 'pay' motorways have cameras photograh the front of the car ... having no front plate bikes get away with not paying ...

The ideal solution to that one is to get e-pay technology to work reliably. I'm not sure about the specifics, but in broad strokes it involves a microchip / magnetic strip / bar code / something clever attached to all vehicles prior to them gaining access to the toll motorways.
These systems apparently need to be smart and reliable enough to be read while the subject vehicle is in motion, specifically through the toll gates leading onto the motorway. This technology is similar in concept to those laser devices at your local supermarket that can instantly identify and process the barcodes on your groceries. Not that those laser devices are 100% reliable either!
It's being argued here that because the e-pay technology is still not working reliably, the operators of the toll motorways are putting pressure on the feds to come up with a solution that will ensure they don't lose revenue - which of course, the feds don't want to see happen because their own revenue-gathering mission will be compromised. So, the easiest solution is this front plate proposal, mounted cross-ways for the best exposure to the fixed cameras at the toll gates. Of course, the feds gleefully recognise the opportunities in mandating front plates because of the speed camera revenue harvest.
I'm trying to find out more about the e-pay technology, and what problems the systems are encountering. Either way, the feds are going to push for anything that requires the least thought, effort and expense on their part, but yields the best return in revenue.

[Grub]

The ideal solution to that one is to get e-pay technology to work reliably. I'm not sure about the specifics, but in broad strokes it involves a microchip / magnetic strip / bar code / something clever attached to all vehicles prior to them gaining access to the toll motorways.

AFAIK, this is exactly the system in operation on Melbourne's "City Link" toll roads . You have a chip affixed to your sun visor, there are no "toll gates", the system looks for a valid chip, if it doesn't find one it takes a pic of the rear of the vehicle and you get a fine. Here's the detail from their wb page ...

Electronic tolling
The world’s most innovative electronic tolling system ensures that traffic flows freely on CityLink. An overhead tolling system scans your e-TAG® and automatically records tolls, so there is no need to slow down or stop to pay tolls.

When a vehicle travels on CityLink and passes under a toll point, an overhead gantry detects, scans and classifies the vehicle. Our system will either detect an e-TAG device in the vehicle, or take an image of the vehicle registration number.

Where an e-TAG device is detected, a computerised visual recognition system ensures the vehicle class matches the e-TAG. Our system then locates the CityLink account the e-TAG is registered to and subsequently charges the relevant trips.

If no e-TAG is detected, an image of the registration number of the vehicle is taken. Our system then identifies if the vehicle was registered for travel on a CityLink pass or account.

When an e-TAG is not detected and the vehicle registration number is not recognised on a CityLink account or Pass, a Late Toll invoice may be issued to the owner of the vehicle for payment of travel on CityLink.

[Waylander]

The ideal solution to that one is to get e-pay technology to work reliably. I'm not sure about the specifics, but in broad strokes it involves a microchip / magnetic strip / bar code / something clever attached to all vehicles prior to them gaining access to the toll motorways.
These systems apparently need to be smart and reliable enough to be read while the subject vehicle is in motion, specifically through the toll gates leading onto the motorway. This technology is similar in concept to those laser devices at your local supermarket that can instantly identify and process the barcodes on your groceries. Not that those laser devices are 100% reliable either!
It's being argued here that because the e-pay technology is still not working reliably, the operators of the toll motorways are putting pressure on the feds to come up with a solution that will ensure they don't lose revenue - which of course, the feds don't want to see happen because their own revenue-gathering mission will be compromised. So, the easiest solution is this front plate proposal, mounted cross-ways for the best exposure to the fixed cameras at the toll gates. Of course, the feds gleefully recognise the opportunities in mandating front plates because of the speed camera revenue harvest.
I'm trying to find out more about the e-pay technology, and what problems the systems are encountering. Either way, the feds are going to push for anything that requires the least thought, effort and expense on their part, but yields the best return in revenue.
Those systems work perfectly fine in the states. Toll-tags. people can pay a certain amount each month into a sort of etpos account that is read by transmitters mounted in the toll both structure. with your toll tag sitting on the dash in a car each time you pass under one it automatically deducts the money. On a bike you can have it stickied to the inside of your fairing screen or the back side of your speedo/tach. I've even gone through with it in my jacket pocket and it id it's job.

If they say the technology is not 100% reliable then they just don't want to spend the money on a real system.

[Swoop]

...how many camera's take side shots.
I was told, on Monday, that camera vans are taking shots through the side windows on occasions. Reducing the chance of the radar beam showing up on detectors.
True or false? I'm not sure, since I don't hang around camera vans, but worth investigating.

[Sanx]

G'day y'all,

The Victoria state government (who are notoriously anti-motorcyle) are pushing for a law change that will see front number plates being made compulsory on bikes. They are also proposing that this change happens in all states.


The Victoria government, egged on by that fuckwit at Monash University, aren't just anti-motorcycle, they're notoriously anti anything with an engine. Some of the most draconian anti-speeding enforcement in the world (tickets at 3kph over the limit). All of which has resulted in a spectacular effect on the road toll (http://www.tacsafety.com.au/jsp/statistics/roadtollannual.do?areaID=12&tierID=1&navID=17). Well, a spectacular failure to do anything at all, really.


Victoria is held as a paradigm of excellence by transit / ltsa / ministry of transport.

<snip>

ie if they follow Victorias methods it removes the requirement to do any independant thinking.

Exactly ... and by adopting the Victorian model, The government / LTNZ have managed to reverse the steady year on year decline in the road toll between 1991 and 2001, replacing it with a slight upward trend in the years following.

Of course, the main reason it's followed isn't that the Victorian model actually increases road safety - the results, or lack thereof, neatly demonstrate otherwise - but for financial reasons. Lots of pointless little tickets equates to lots of nice revenue. Moreover, the government can claim to 'be doing something' about the problem, even if the net effects of those actions is to make things worse.

As an aside, I just found something again that I'd seen once before but had never managed to track down since. The Ministry for Fucking Up Transport have a small publication entitled Speed Crash Facts July 2007 (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Speeeding-Crash-Factsheet-07-July-web.pdf). On page four, they make the laughable claim that every 1kph drop in mean road speed can produce up to a 4% reduction in fatalities (actually, fatal crashes). They even have a couple of pretty graphs to indicate the drop in mean road speed between 1996 and 2006.

In 2002, the mean open road speed was 99.1kph. In 2005, the figure was 97.1kph. That's a 2kph drop, which should equate to an 8% reduction, according to the government's own figures. In 2002, the road toll was 405. In 2005, it was 405. In fact, if you take 2004's figures, it's even worse. Mean open road speed of 97.8kph, and a road toll of 435.

Now, if I used the same statistical analysis the government seem to use, I would probably have to claim that, based on a thorough scientific examination of all available data, going slowly kills.

The reason for bringing this up is that Victoria make a very similar laughable claim for the effects of a reduction in average speed; 5kph should result in a 15% drop in crashes. And the results are the same there. A drop in average road speed, and fuck all difference in the road toll...

I would claim the figures and results should be blatantly fucken obvious to anyone with more than three interconnected neurons, but we're talking about governmentdepartments and bureacrats here.

[Trouser]

Seems to come around every 10 years or so.

[Animal]

If they say the technology is not 100% reliable then they just don't want to spend the money on a real system.

Hit the nail on the head there, Cannuck.
It's cheaper and less effort for them to simply legislate compulsory front plates - user pays, as usual.

[Subike]

not sure of the exact teckno shit but
dont the japs have something like this for road mileage?
dont the poms have a system for tolls in London thats similar?

now would I be correct in assuming that both those countries, because of pride, would want nothing other than a 100% perfect working system?


I dont think we should get too worried about it, petrol is due to run out anyway, and the gommint just wants all the taxes now, to offset those future years when they will be broke like the rest of us and walking

my meaningless dribble