Crash scene -what do you do?

[FROSTY]

Scenario. -Its late at night. You come across a bike accident where there are two people lyiing on the ground.
Crash scene has been secured.
One person is lying face down not moving the other is rolling around a bit and making groaning noise. There are no trained medical people around.
What would you do?

[Bikernereid]

If you think one person is dead, check first. If yes than make sure the other person's air way is not obstructed. DO NOT move them if you think for one second they may have spinal injuries.

If not dead do first aid and if not breathing do 30 chest compressions followed by 2 mouth to mouth breaths and repeat until person is breathing.

Then call the emergency services.

Make sure they are warm and talk to them to reassure them and make them feel safe and secure. That is what I would do.

[sAsLEX]

Contact 111 whilst going to the quiet one, noisy people are never hurt that bad they just think they are.

And being a biker I would have done some basic first aid due to the inherent danger in my past time and the high likely hood that this skill would be needed one day.

[Grub]

Yup sounds like the business. I remember one exercise we did someone was screaming their lungs off and the other was quiet. It's the quiet ones that need your attention first, they're usually in the worst shape.

The other thing not to do is take their helmet off straight away if you can help it. There's a thread by RiffRaff about how to do it properly. It's a tough call because you need the helmet off to clear airways and do mouth-mouth.

[sAsLEX]

It's a tough call because you need the helmet off to clear airways and do mouth-mouth.

Sure removing their helmet might injure their neck, but not doing it could leave them dead, makes the decision a little easier.

[Nasty]

Sure removing their helmet might injure their neck, but not doing it could leave them dead, makes the decision a little easier.

Also removing it may exacerbate a neck injury and leave them paralysed .... there are many ifs and butts here ...

[FROSTY]

Ok so see if I have this right. Go to quiet one first--establish if d or a then.
if dead -Go to the noisier one and see what you could do to help.
If not dead?

[homer]

accertain whos at fault , then proceed to help the others ring 111

[James Deuce]

Try not to run them over as you weave through the wreckage on your way past.

You don't want to run over anything sharp and get a puncture.

[Bikernereid]

Ok so see if I have this right. Go to quiet one first--establish if d or a then.
if dead -Go to the noisier one and see what you could do to help.
If not dead?

If the person is not dead make sure that thier airway is clear so that they can breath unassisted. You should be able to see thier breath on thier visor or you could open visor and hover hand over mouth to see if you can feel thier breath on your hand.

At the end of the day you have to make a decision- would the person rather being paralysed and alive or dead. Making sure the person can breath and doesn't end up also being barin damaged would be my preference so if I thought it essential I would remove the helmet. So if you think the airway might be blocked you need to remove helmet make sure there is no blockage in the throat and tilt the head backwards using the chin to do so.

If you don't think the spine is damaged then you need to get the person into the recover position.

[slimjim]

Try not to run them over as you weave through the wreckage on your way past.

You don't want to run over anything sharp and get a puncture.'

:wari: yup that'll do it

[speights_bud]

Removing helmets discussed here:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=46494&highlight=removing+helmet

[Mikkel]

Try not to run them over as you weave through the wreckage on your way past.

You don't want to run over anything sharp and get a puncture.

Do on your back wheel so at least the front will be fine. It'll also make weaving around the people on the ground more challenging. And it'll make you look even cooler.

Alternatively, stop, get off your bike, tell the screamer to harden the fuck up and then wheelie off into the distance. (check if he's got some petrol money for you...) (p/t)


Well, it's all hypothetical - I wouldn't be there, considering there would be no trained medical people around ;)

[FROSTY]

Do on your back wheel so at least the front will be fine. It'll also make weaving around the people on the ground more challenging. And it'll make you look even cooler.

Alternatively, stop, get off your bike, tell the screamer to harden the fuck up and then wheelie off into the distance. (check if he's got some petrol money for you...)


Well, it's all hypothetical - I wouldn't be there, considering there would be no trained medical people around ;)
Screamer was a girl.Dress jacket no gloves flat slip on shoes
Tell ya what Ill give you the addy for the ICU she's in and YOU can go tell her to HTFU

[merv]

Somewhere in amongst all the carnage if you have another person with you its easier, make sure if one of you has the knowledge and wherewithall then also check the bike as in if the motor is still running turn it off and see if you can stand the bike upright to stop fuel leaking and that kind of stuff - you don't want a kaboom near injured people and you as rescuer.

[klingon]

Scenario. -Its late at night. You come across a bike accident where there are two people lyiing on the ground.
Crash scene has been secured.
One person is lying face down not moving the other is rolling around a bit and making groaning noise. There are no trained medical people around.
What would you do?

Crash scene has been secured. How thoroughly? By how many people? Are you completely confident that no other vehicle is going to come along (from either direction) and plough into the lot of you? Can you put your bike on the road somewhere visible with its hazards on to stop oncoming traffic? If necessary, do you have other reflective gear you can leave on the road from the other direction - panniers or other gear with reflective strips for example.

If you have someone posted on the road to stop traffic, can they be making the 111 call at the same time you're attending to the victims? If so, do they even know where they are so they can give emergency services an accurate location? (At night on a rural road, a lot of people will have trouble describing where they are.) If there is no cellphone coverage in the area, what's plan B?

Does your helper know that as soon as more people arrive the helper should get one of them to be on traffic duty and everyone else must report to you IMMEDIATELY for further instructions? (You are definitely going to need help monitoring and caring for the injured people.)

Also - there were two people on the ground... how many bikes were there? It's dark. Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that the two people you can see are the only two people involved? Is there another bike in the ditch? Has a pillion been flung over a hedge and are they lying in a paddock badly injured? Get someone with a torch to survey a much wider area.

[FROSTY]

Good stuff merv/klingon.
But a tadd more focussed here.
No possibility of traffic coming from either direction.-single lane road with Vehicles stopped and banked up.
Single bike which has pretty well destroyed itself but is upright and secure
so your main focus is the injured people

[Hitcher]

I know first-hand what most bikers do when encountering a downed biker in their path: they lane-split past, least they arrive late for the start of the racing at Wanganui.

[motorbike.ventures]

Here in the Czech Republic we are required by law to help. We must first call the paramedics in all cases, then check the injured.

And we are required by law to have a first aid kit always with us.... though I guess not all motorcyclists do...

[Crazy Steve]

Check your own saftey 1st..Are you in a Hazard position ? ?

Then Check there wallets for large cash notes..

If you score anything...Leave quickly and quietly..:baby:

Crazy Steve..

[Squid]

Like the other more serious ppl have said, make sure you aren't going to add to the hazards on the road by having you bike parked up in a dumb place i.e. Middle of the road. If there is other people around, from cars or whatever, get one of them to call 111. You want to get onto that early as they take time to get to the scene. Again like the others have said tend to the quite one first and if possible get somone else to look at the sceamer.

What was the outcome of the crash?

[FROSTY]

What was the outcome of the crash?
Thanks for asking.
Last I heard rider in serious but stable condition in ICU.
Pillion Critical condition in ICU.
--Im not relative so can't find out more

[jrandom]

What would I do?

Hmm. Immediately kick myself for never taking a first aid course, probably.

Then park up somewhere safe, go over to the downed riders, check airway/breathing/circulation. Fortunately, I have memorised the steps to safe helmet removal if required to establish the above.

Check if any bystanders had already dialled 111 and do it myself if I couldn't confirm that immediately.

Can't think of anything else, really. I doubt I'd be much use in a crash. Then again, a proper bin on a bike can fuck up a human body so much that 'first aid' becomes pretty pointless. How do you administer 'first aid' to someone who has torn-up lungs, smashed bones throughout their body and rampant internal bleeding?

I imagine there's little you can do sometimes but shake your head, hold their hand and wait for the end.

:no:

[marty]

i've had a few of these. worst one was a mid-80's commodore with 8 kids in it. driver was pissed and 'p'd, crashed into a pole, killed one, seriously injured the others, then did a runner.

live power lines draped over the car. 2 quiet ones, one dead one, 4 screaming girls bleeding everywhere, and the driver running away...........where do you start?

secure the scene. for your own and others safety. switch ignition off. hope like hell the circuit breaker for the power has popped (and they have already cycled it, popping it for the second time just to confirm) get screamers moved away from the scene. confirm the dead one and cover them up. there is not much apart from stemming blood flow and reassuring while waiting for ems that you can realistically do.

[Squid]

Good that there both alive at least :)

What caused the prang? Lowside on a corner or what???

[FROSTY]

What caused the prang? Lowside on a corner or what???
If its ok I'd rather not say just now.

[sAsLEX]

hope like hell the circuit breaker for the power has popped (and they have already cycled it, popping it for the second time just to confirm)

Normally its three times not two.....

[old git]

PLEASE,
Go do a first aid course, learn CPR.
I'm a sparkie and they make us do the course every two years, boring as hell and costs you money!!!, and its a pain in the arse that you will probably never use.
BUT...................If you read my rantings from a few weeks ago-- SHIT HAPPENS {less than a week after the CPR course}...........and i was first on the scene, he is now up and about ALIVE and still walking.
I will admit i went to work after it happened, and shook like a F###ing leaf for a while, Hell its a real wake up call, but haven't we all had a prang at some time ?, and sure as hell i want the first person that arrives on the scene to know what to do, coz for every sixty seconds you ain't breathing you stand 10 % less chance of ever doing it again!!!.
So just to be real good to all the other riders, and them to you,:done: GO LEARN, one day you just may save some poor sods life.
And that will make your day as well as Theirs!!!

[BiK3RChiK]

Lots of comfort for the injured is much appreciated too... Ask those who are coherent if they would like you to ring someone for them.

When I was in a serious crash back in the early 90's it was great to see my sister-in-law. The crash scene had been secured by the time she came along, but when she found out it was me in the crash she barged her way through! In the meantime, it was awesome to have strangers put a blanket around me and an arm or two over the shoulders and talk to me. I cannot remember what they said but it all helped!

It's a bit of a shame that those who help out are not able to contact the victim if they aren't family, because I for one would have loved to at least say a big thank you to everyone who assisted me...

Good on you Frosty! +1 Well! I've gotta spread the love!!!


M

[merv]

I know first-hand what most bikers do when encountering a downed biker in their path: they lane-split past, least they arrive late for the start of the racing at Wanganui.

Hmmm - like off the Bulls bridge for example.

[owner]

+1 cool thread frosty. Real shitter about the inspiration I hope everyone pulls thru alright.

[HungusMaximist]

Start giving the 'kiss of life' immediately, especially if the biker is extremely gorgeous. They'll thank you for it later.

This goes for guys and ladies.

But yes, I agree, take a First-Aid course or something and save a life!

[devnull]

Triage is one of the more difficult skills to learn - it's a skill where experience really counts.

I agree with those that have said do a first aid course, and I'd like to add, do a first aid course with an experienced instructor (e.g. ex-ambo).

Helmet removal - takes 2 people to do, and PRACTICE the damn skill BEFORE you need it. It's a bit late when you're pumped up on adrenalin and a biker's lying on the ground in front of you

Ever wonder why ambulance staff don't leap from the vehicle the moment the wheels stop moving? They're looking. That brief pause lets you take a good hard look at the scene, get into the correct frame of mind and prepare to work (hard to put into words... )

Good thread though - a reminder that if you haven't done a first aid course, get off your arse and do one (for extra motivation, many workplaces pay a bit more for a registered first aider - they need to have a certain number to keep OSH happy)

[klingon]

Thanks for asking.
Last I heard rider in serious but stable condition in ICU.
Pillion Critical condition in ICU.
--Im not relative so can't find out more

Oh... it was a real situation? I thought it was just you testing us, Frosty. Sorry to hear it was real and my thoughts go out to the bikers. Good on you for being able to help.

It always amazes me at an accident scene when so many people seem to be frozen into 'observer' mode and never make any attempt to help. Even if there are people there ahead of you and it all seems to be under control, ask if there's anything you can do. As BiK3RChiK said, just sitting by an injured person, assuring them an ambulance is on its way and keeping them calm can be a huge help.

[Jorja]

Used to live on a road that saw alot of car crashers. Was first on the scene to about 5 of them. 3 really serious. All of them were caused by rain and speed. The late night ones always involved alcohol.

Making sure the person is breathing, then keeping them still, calm and warm is sometimes all you can do.
A basic first aid course will teach you alot but some people no matter how much training they have just can not cope with the situation. Me I go into auto pilot. Tend to shake and get upset once I am away from the scene.

[Bikernereid]

I am sure that whatever you did hey are both extremely grateful that you had the heart to stop and help and not ride on by. Good on you for caring enough to help, it couldn't have been a pleasant experience.

I just completed a first aid course for work and believe me it is something I would recommend everyone to do. God forbid they should ever need to use it but how would people feel if it was their loved one, family member or friend that need this attention and they didn't have the skills to help!




Screamer was a girl.Dress jacket no gloves flat slip on shoes
Tell ya what Ill give you the addy for the ICU she's in and YOU can go tell her to HTFU

[Mikkel]

Screamer was a girl.Dress jacket no gloves flat slip on shoes
Tell ya what Ill give you the addy for the ICU she's in and YOU can go tell her to HTFU

As klingon said - it certainly wasn't in anyway obvious that this was a real occurance...

But nah, HTFU won't put the skin back on her body... I think ATGATT would be more appropriate - although it's a bit late when you already have ground to stop.

First aid is a valuable skill. But staying calm and collected when faced with situations like the one you describe is the biggest challenge. It's easy to sit down in a class room and do a case study and follow the list from A to Z. When you are in the situation unprepared with very real screaming and very real blood on the ground things are a bit different.

But if it comes to a case study, this would be my approach:

1. Stop the accident - make sure that no further mishaps will occur.
2. Visually check that the screaming person doesn't have any arterial bleeds. - if any arterial bleeds are seen try to get the victim to shove a thumb in the wound to stem the bleeding.
3. Check respiration and pulse on the immobile victim - apply CPR as necessary.
4. Contact emergency services ASAP after critical first aid has been taken care of.
5. First aid - bandaging other wounds, psychological first aid, etc.

What did you do?

[Bikernereid]

If possible carry first aid kit at all times evern if it is only the bare essentials. But one thing that seems to be one of the most important pieces of kit is cling film. So if there is any way you can make sure you have some one your bike or in tank bag it is worth it.

Cling film can help to keep dirty out of all wounds and can also provide visibility to the paramedics so that saves time as they are able to see what they are dealing with straight away.

[Ixion]

Ambo services , what with choppers n all, are so good and fast now, that, assuming the crash is in a reasonably non-remote area, all that an amateur should do is secure the scene to prevent any further damage, and deal with any "going to die in the next 60 seconds stuff". Which , realistically, means CPR.

If the victim isn't breathing, they will die. No matter how fast the ambos get there. So if they are not breathing, CPR it is. If that means pulling the helmet off so be it. If y'don't , they're dead, how much worse than that can y' make it?

And apply pressure to any major arterial bleeds (bright red blood spurting out and shitloads of it).

If they're breathing, and not pissing blood everywhere, don't try to be clever, IMHO. Reassure, make comfortable, wait for the experts.

[Jorja]

If possible carry first aid kit at all times evern if it is only the bare essentials. But one thing that seems to be one of the most important pieces of kit is cling film. So if there is any way you can make sure you have some one your bike or in tank bag it is worth it.

Cling film can help to keep dirty out of all wounds and can also provide visibility to the paramedics so that saves time as they are able to see what they are dealing with straight away.

On the whole I agree. We have a first aid kit when riding the dirt bikes. However I would have thought that a basic first aid kit would be of very little help at the scene of a road crash. It certainly would have been last night.
A cell phone would be more advisable and possible a fluro vest tucked away with the bikes tool kit so you are visable to any other vehicles while giving help.

[Guided_monkey]

Good thread Frosty..... get's people thinking.

A first aid course is a real handy thing.

I carry a first aid kit in the car and on the bike. Hopefully I'm not going to need it but you never know.

Have yet to come across a accident where the training was required ...... and don't really want to.

[Bikernereid]

I guess it may not have been useful last night but I would rather have one with me than not. If there are gaping wounds then bandages from the kit are useful.


Yes defo on the fluro vest and I always carry a mobile phone when on a bike. The only things with bikes is the lack of space for all of these things; short of having a tank bag or ruck sack!

Hope you n Frosty are both ok.


On the whole I agree. We have a first aid kit when riding the dirt bikes. However I would have thought that a basic first aid kit would be of very little help at the scene of a road crash. It certainly would have been last night.
A cell phone would be more advisable and possible a fluro vest tucked away with the bikes tool kit so you are visable to any other vehicles while giving help.

[Mikkel]

I'm just sitting here feeling slightly ambivalent about the whole "carry a first aid kit at all times". Indeed, if you're going off the beaten track where help is going to be hours or even days away it is essential.

If you're on paved roads with emergency services able to reach you fairly quickly I don't think a band aid and a few bandages are going to make much of a difference.

CPR doesn't require anything but knowledge, skill and experience (you will only posses skill and experience if you get to use CPR in real situations on a regular basis - so that only leaves knowledge for most of us.)

You can't bandage a serious arterial bleeding anyway - your thumb is the only thing that will work. If it's a minor arterial bleed such as your lower arm or leg a compression bandage MAY do the trick, and compression bandages are easily improvised using a rock and a torn t-shirt. If shit hits the fan a tournique may be necessary - a belt and a spanner/branch will sort that out. But it will have to be released every 5 minutes unless you're willing to sacrifice the limb.

The most valuable thing in a first aid kit for these kinds of situations (and they may not be present in some kits) are those emergency tin foil blankets to help keeping people from going into shock.

[DEATH_INC.]

I guess it may not have been useful last night but I would rather have one with me than not. If there are gaping wounds then bandages from the kit are useful.


Yes defo on the fluro vest and I always carry a mobile phone when on a bike. The only things with bikes is the lack of space for all of these things; short of having a tank bag or ruck sack!

Hope you n Frosty are both ok.
Ya don't need to carry bandages, clothing can always be ripped up if needed. Not a bad idea if ya got the room all the same.
Check the not moving one first, if they're breathing and stableish with no big blood losses, get to the other and try to calm and reassure them and make sure there's nothing critical.
If the first is not breathing, get that helmet off and try cpr, nothing to lose, but ya still need to check the second person to see that there's nothing critical like huge blood loses or things stuck through 'em etc, don't need two dead people trying to resuscitate one while the other dies.....
On ya Frosty, sounds like ya did the right thing anyhoo...

[BiK3RChiK]

Oh!, and FFS don't interfere with anything from the emergency services when they do arrive!!! Seen this heaps of times from morons who think they are 'helping'!!

[James Deuce]

I've seen the "emergency services" send one bloke out in an ambulance to multi vehicle pile up. This moron won't offer to help anymore then.

Cool.

I am getting on and my back is a bit dodgy.

[FROSTY]

Oh!, and FFS don't interfere with anything from the emergency services when they do arrive!!! Seen this heaps of times from morons who think they are 'helping'!!
Yup thats me --Just another moron

[Bikernereid]

You are never a moron by helping anyone in pain or distress!!! You deserve so much respect for taking the time to help strangers when you could have just left them to fend for themselves!!!!!!!


Yup thats me --Just another moron

[BiK3RChiK]

You took it all wrong! What I meant was if they bring stuff out of the ambulance and put it aside, then don't move it! The ambulance officer turns around to pick it up and it's gone!!! Heard many a complaint from them about people who are trying to 'help' and making things worse...

[FROSTY]

I must say I stand in awe of the people who can do this sort of thing day in and day out. The ambos,triage staff,police and fire crews.
These guys n gals are frigging amazing

[R1madness]

Neck injurys are a difficult thing to diagnose on the side of the road even for a trained professional. So, if i am lying there not breathing and still have a helmet on please remove it asap and give me some mouth to mouth so i have a chance of living. (even if if is in a wheelchair forever). Better a chair than a box i think.

[FROSTY]

Neck injurys are a difficult thing to diagnose on the side of the road even for a trained professional. So, if i am lying there not breathing and still have a helmet on please remove it asap and give me some mouth to mouth so i have a chance of living. (even if if is in a wheelchair forever). Better a chair than a box i think.
Thanks a million dude--This EXACT senario has been going round and round in my head since saturday night.
The guy to the best of my knowledge wasn't breathing. Fluttery pulse.
2 decisions I made 1-Turned him over with help after looking at his back
and 2) removing his helmet. -He was blue in the face with blood running out of his mouth.I thought He'd swallowed his tounge
Helmet off ,head supported he started breathing again on his own--kinda explosive first breath
Shit scared I made matters worse to be honest

[Mikkel]

Oh!, and FFS don't interfere with anything from the emergency services when they do arrive!!! Seen this heaps of times from morons who think they are 'helping'!!

Well, in the case that the emergency services work the way they should you are right. Alas, sometimes that is indeed not the case.


I've seen the "emergency services" send one bloke out in an ambulance to multi vehicle pile up. This moron won't offer to help anymore then.

My uncle works as an ambulance driver and general rescue worker. On several occasions he's gotten into trouble with the management because he told them to get stuffed and thought for himself. E.g. at one point he was being allocated an unsuitable vehicle for a certain accident by the young pretty girl taking calls behind the counter. He said fuck that and took the vehicle that suited the task. His boss called him in afterwards and told him off, warning him that he risked being fired for insubordination.
Next time he was being allocated the wrong vehicle he said "it's not gonna cut it", they insisted, he shrugged and took the one he was told to take, drove out to the accident scene, had a chat to the people out there, called back to the central, was told to come back and take the vehicle that would do the job, went and did the job. Was then called in by his boss and was told off for doing what he was told when he well knew that it wouldn't work.

WTF can you do?

[klingon]

Thanks a million dude--This EXACT senario has been going round and round in my head since saturday night.
The guy to the best of my knowledge wasn't breathing. Fluttery pulse.
2 decisions I made 1-Turned him over with help after looking at his back
and 2) removing his helmet. -He was blue in the face with blood running out of his mouth.I thought He'd swallowed his tounge
Helmet off ,head supported he started breathing again on his own--kinda explosive first breath
Shit scared I made matters worse to be honest

Frosty, you did the right thing. The first thing you did right was to stop and help. Everything after that was a bonus.

From your description it sounds like you probably saved the guy's life. If I was the injured rider I would want you to do exactly what you did.

My brother was in a car crash some years ago (back seat passenger - car vs bridge). The driver thought he was dead and ran away from the scene. My brother had a broken neck and collapsed lungs - he would have died if a passing motorist had not stopped to check the car wreck and seen him jammed between the back & front seats.

My brother survived and is a tetraplegic. He now has a wife and twin little girls (my only nieces). Am I glad the motorist stopped and helped him? OF COURSE I AM!! Even if* the helper's actions had contributed to the result of my brother being in a wheelchair, I (and my brother and the whole family) are forever grateful for that person having stopped and helped.

*note: I don't think their actions caused worse injuries. As far as I know he would still be a tetraplegic if he had survived without help - but it's likely he would also have brain damage due to oxygen starvation. It's even more likely that he wouldn't have survived at all.

You made the best decisions you could in an extremely difficult situation. Whatever you did, you did the right thing.

[Bikernereid]

+1. Have friends who wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for people who care stopping.


Frosty, you did the right thing. The first thing you did right was to stop and help. Everything after that was a bonus.

From your description it sounds like you probably saved the guy's life. If I was the injured rider I would want you to do exactly what you did.

My brother was in a car crash some years ago (back seat passenger - car vs bridge). The driver thought he was dead and ran away from the scene. My brother had a broken neck and collapsed lungs - he would have died if a passing motorist had not stopped to check the car wreck and seen him jammed between the back & front seats.

My brother survived and is a tetraplegic. He now has a wife and twin little girls (my only nieces). Am I glad the motorist stopped and helped him? OF COURSE I AM!! Even if* the helper's actions had contributed to the result of my brother being in a wheelchair, I (and my brother and the whole family) are forever grateful for that person having stopped and helped.

*note: I don't think their actions caused worse injuries. As far as I know he would still be a tetraplegic if he had survived without help - but it's likely he would also have brain damage due to oxygen starvation. It's even more likely that he wouldn't have survived at all.

You made the best decisions you could in an extremely difficult situation. Whatever you did, you did the right thing.

[MIXONE]

In a situation like this I hope I would have the guts to do SOMETHING.Doing nothing at all is the crime.

[HenryDorsetCase]

In a situation like this I hope I would have the guts to do SOMETHING.Doing nothing at all is the crime.

Yeah but no.

The "do nothing" option (apart from the obvious like ensuring the professionals are on their way) is a viable option. Particularly if the alternative might make things worse.

What you have to do is THINK, not rush about like a pissed chook.

I did a first aid course run by an advanced paramedic (she had GREAT war stories) and one thing she said stuck in my mind. It was that you stop, get your kit out the car/truck, and WALK to the scene, while looking about. That gives you time to LOOK, and ASSESS.

it was a very good experience and a great course.

[NSR-Dan]

Sure removing their helmet might injure their neck, but not doing it could leave them dead, makes the decision a little easier.

Some situations the head may be cracked open and the helmet may be holding it together.

That happened to a work colleuge after being hit by a truck on a TZR, out of commision for about 2 years.

[discotex]

Thanks a million dude--This EXACT senario has been going round and round in my head since saturday night.
The guy to the best of my knowledge wasn't breathing. Fluttery pulse.
2 decisions I made 1-Turned him over with help after looking at his back
and 2) removing his helmet. -He was blue in the face with blood running out of his mouth.I thought He'd swallowed his tounge
Helmet off ,head supported he started breathing again on his own--kinda explosive first breath
Shit scared I made matters worse to be honest

Speaking as someone who's been in similar situations (although not a road crash)...

Mate if he was blue he wasn't breathing.

You almost certainly saved his life and/or brain damage.

If there's a spinal cord injury it probably would have happened during the accident not when you moved him anyway. It's all speculation and unless you had a collar there and didn't use it you did absolutely nothing wrong.

Too many people stand back waiting for someone else to take (or freeze) when the shit hits the fan. Good on you for doing what you could. Please don't seccond guess yourself. If you need to talk about it over a beer or whatever just let me know and I'm there k.

[FROSTY]

Fucking fantastic news. Both the rider and passenger on the bike are alive.
Both outa ICU.

[jrandom]

Fucking fantastic news. Both the rider and passenger on the bike are alive.
Both outa ICU.

Glad to hear it.

Heard in the news that it was a bike vs car, so I guess they ended up going under a vehicle coming the other way.

They're lucky to be alive, and yes, it sounds like you almost certainly saved the rider's life.

Not that you'll ever get a medal for it, but nonetheless, that's something I'd be proud to know that I'd done.

Onya Frosty.

[FROSTY]

like my dad said ages ago --dya want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

[yungatart]

I always go by this neumonic D R A B C

D= Danger... is there any danger that I could get done for this.

R= Response.. if no response, its safe to take their wallet

A= Airway.. if caught with the wallet it might be a good time to get a ticket with British Airways.

B= Breathing.. If they're not breathing perform mouth to mouth.. if they are breathing it could be a homo trying to get some man on man action. (insert fist to testicles)

C= Circulation.. make sure the notes from his wallet get back into circulation as soon as possible.

Glad you aren't stationed here then.
A flippant reply from a professional...but then it is Speedie, I guess I should not expect more...

[MSTRS]

Nothing humorous about that without a smiley to go with it.

[ManDownUnder]

Helmet off ,head supported he started breathing again on his own--kinda explosive first breath

Hey Tony,

One of the first times I met you I remember clearly you telling me the reason for staying involved in motorcycling after year of seeing your mates die around you in racing circles... one by one by one...

The reason you gave me then was simple - to try and keep some of them alive.

Congrats. You're probably the one that made a difference. Walk tall mate.

:niceone:

[yungatart]

It is just a humerous reply. If you can't see that then too bad. I have answered these types of questions too many times to count. Do a search.

You have no idea how serious I take my job, and what I go through at motorcycle accident scenes. Think back to Pukekohe a month back. Then think again before making such remarks and red reps. Next time you're dealing with deceased motorcyclists give me a call...then we might be on the same page. Until then I am more than qualified to deal with tragic events in a humourus nature, thats what we do.

As a trained nurse, believe me, I know what your job entails. I have been first on the scene of numerous accidents (as a private citizen) and have rendered assistance countless times. And yes, after the job is done, I get emotional and upset. Pity your sense of humour isn't funny, eh? This was a serious question and should not IMHO have been treated so flippantly by you.Your response was not funny, especially with the lack of smilies.
If you couldn't treat it seriously, then maybe you should have not replied at all.
I do recall some of your sensible posts, but along with that I seem to recall a few that are in extremely poor taste, not to mention, in at least one instance, downright unprofessional.


Smilies added..:doh:
Pity they weren't there to start with.
I stand by what I posted earlier and my rep comment that went with it.

[ManDownUnder]

I always go by this neumonic D R A B C

Gotta admit I read this and simply saw the voice of experience wrapped in a bit of grim humour. Obviously a painful area, and I know some deal with it differently to others. I'd hate to see a shit fight break out for that sake.

In a similar vain if you ever wanted the world's biggest collection of baby jokes - just ask the Stratford Mortician. Very very dark sense of humour that helps him avoid sleepless nights.

Janet - total respect for you speaking your mind too. As I said - I'd hate to see you guys go tooth and nail over what appears to be different ways of coping with stress. That is what it looks like from the outside and the last couple of posts from you both.

... butting out...

[FROSTY]

Hey folks please don't argue . I can see as MDU said clearly you deal with it differently.
I suspect if Speedie diddnt use black humour he'd be a blubbering mess.
Me I just get angry.

[Mikkel]

It is just a humerous reply. If you can't see that then too bad. I have answered these types of questions too many times to count. Do a search.

Yes, you'll rarely find people with a more dark sense of humour than the professionals that deal with in-your-face life and death situations on a daily basis.

Albeit, it's not all of them that partake in it - some have a more introvert nature.

It's just a survival mechanism and while it may not appeal to everyone I think that for some it is a necessary way to vent.

Problem about the way this thread was started is that it was in no way apparent that the scene, as FROSTY described it, was anything more than a hypothetical scenario.
You'll find that several piss-takes are found on the first couple of pages before it was evident that this was a real-life situation. Yes, one of these piss-takes is my own (and yes, I also forgot to add smileys, thinking that the irony was obvious.).

[candor]

Never mind safeguarding your bike - think of yourself first.

CPR to a prolly much lacerated crash victim entails risk of fatal blood bourne viruses - mainly hepatitis C, which is common and gives a shorter life expectancy than HIV for many sufferers(treatments not as good as for HIV see). Hep C can be a stigma and drain on quality of life too.

Use protection. The mask through which to do CPR breathing prolly is the one essential of a first aid kit if you had to carry one item. We always got issued them on first aid refreshers required as part of my job. I'd keep them on me a few weks to be honest then somehow loose them. Still - I'd recommend - can proly buy at chemist cheap.

Hepatitis C is a blood borne RNA virus. Hepatitis C is a diverse disease of significant clinical, personal, and public health importance. Infection with hepatitis C can cause ill health and other serious conditions such as cirrhosis, liver failure and hepatocellular carcinoma.

Pegasus say -
It is estimated that in the year 2000 there were 25,200 people in New Zealand with hepatitis C virus (HCV) antibodies. This represents approximately 1% of the New Zealand adult population aged 20 years and above. It was estimated that there were at least 1200 cases of hepatitis C related cirrhosis in the year 2000. HCV infection is expected to increase by approximately 25 new infections per week in New Zealand. It is also estimated that the numbers of New Zealanders with hepatitis C antibodies will increase by 50% over the next 10 years.

Intravenous drug users represent the most at risk group with 15% per annum becoming infected. The number of HCV related deaths in New Zealand will more than double by 2010

[Mikkel]

Never mind safeguarding your bike - think of yourself first.

CPR to a prolly much lacerated crash victim entails risk of fatal blood bourne viruses - mainly hepatitis C, which is common and gives a shorter life expectancy than HIV for many sufferers(treatments not as good as for HIV see). Hep C can be a stigma and drain on quality of life too.

Use protection. The mask through which to do CPR breathing prolly is the one essential of a first aid kit if you had to carry one item. We always got issued them on first aid refreshers required as part of my job. I'd keep them on me a few weks to be honest then somehow loose them. Still - I'd recommend - can proly buy at chemist cheap.

So how big a percentage of kiwis suffer from Hepatitis C?

I mean, I'd be more worried about catching Ebola than Hep. C - the prognosis is much worse ;)

[discotex]

Never mind safeguarding your bike - think of yourself first.
...

Hep C can be a stigma and drain on quality of life too.


A stigma which you are promoting.

The odds of the person you're saving

a) having a blood borne disease
and
b) you having an open wound to get infected from

are probably the same as winning lotto. It's much harder to get infected than just getting a drop of blood on your skin.

The average person has a much higher chance of getting HIV through unprotected sex and Hep C from getting a tattoo.


Not giving someone CPR because you don't happen to have a mask handy (or creating hysteria about having to carry one at all times) is fucking sad. Not saving someone's life for billion to one odds you might catch something is selfish to the extreme.

[Dutchee]

Speedie, i had to double check to see if it was who I thought it was who'd posted it. It seemed out of character for you.
But, by this stage, we have established the hypothetical question (with the flippant remarks at the beginning), was a question after the fact of an accident. We have also established that both the rider and pillion are alive and out of ICU.
how old were the rider & pillion? I'm guessing young. You been young? I've worn some dumbass things as a pillion and when I used to ride scooters.
I am still one of the scum of the earth that wears jeans when riding. I also wear leathers, depending on what the ride is. I have come off, I have not had skin grafts. I have worn overtrou where when I came off, they were fine. The jeans underneath and my skin wasn't overly, but nothing serious (slow dump, shouldn't have even hurt).
One of my colleagues used to laugh at me coming into work on my scooter, wearing a jacket, jeans & gloves. He questioned me about the gloves and I commented I couldn't afford time off work with injured hands. He'd been riding for years and had never thought of it. I'd been down the road enough times to know gravel rash on the hands ain't fun.
Glad the rider & pillion are okay.
Speedie, thanks for the job you do, I couldn't do it. I'm one of these folk that turns into a blubbering mess (or would inappropriately faint - I hate the sight of blood).

[candor]

A stigma which you are promoting.

The odds of the person you're saving

a) having a blood borne disease
and, b) you having an open wound to get infected from
are probably the same as winning lotto.

The average person has a much higher chance of getting HIV through unprotected sex and Hep C from getting a tattoo.

Not giving someone CPR because you don't happen to have a mask handy (or creating hysteria about having to carry one at all times) is fucking sad. Not saving someone's life for billion to one odds you might catch something is selfish to the extreme.

Just checked in so excuse late reply. Can't agree that stigma is promoted by the post. Tho mighta been better to highlight as you did that this is not going to be a factor most cases. I just think it is best to be as safe as possible - and most responsible. In no way did I suggest people should not do CPR on others. It is possible to have a win win and no worries -

?Billion to one odds of transmission you say - now thats going to the extreme -if it were not a fair concern they why did our qualified CPR instructors always cover this and recommend masks?

And can you back up your odds comparisons?
I'd doubt it - as the numbers of tattoos done would allow good ballpark estimates of odds of catching a bbv - but the infrequency of CPR would make sure no good stats can be gathered on this possible mode of transmission.

I'd agree it is not a huge risk but its a lot higher than billion to one - for one the main risk group (iv users) is at greater risk of serious crashing than most of those outside the risk group. At about double the risk (IMMORTAL study). Some risk of dealing with someone with a bbv is therefore there. A risk that can be eliminated is worth considering.

If you are in a crash with someone with a person with a bbv as your driver or passenger and you must CPR there is every likelihood you will have some facial lacerations that could see your risk go well up

Sheesh - withholding info that could prevent a serious illness in a rescuer... just because a disease may have stigma is also sad in my book. Its like saying because most hiv transmission was between male gays the heteros ought not be given any info - lest it cause hysteria and too much safe sex!

When you have had a needle stick injury and months of worry as a result of attending to someones healthcare without employing sufficient self care techniques, I think maybe you'll relate to the safety first principle. It cant hurt anyone, so whats the issue .

[scumdog]

Scenario. -Its late at night. You come across a bike accident where there are two people lyiing on the ground.
Crash scene has been secured.
One person is lying face down not moving the other is rolling around a bit and making groaning noise. There are no trained medical people around.
What would you do?

What do you mean 'secured'?? - that bit needs some clarification.

[PrincessBandit]

Never mind safeguarding your bike - think of yourself first.


It makes sense that you need to think in terms of your own safety when dealing with any injury to others, whether it be simple cuts/grazes etc. or at the other end of the scale full-on triage scenario. But I would go more for personal safety by ensuring that you remain in a condition yourself to be of assistance e.g. doing your best to stay out of the line of fire regarding bypassing vehicles etc. In terms of protection against infection or blood borne disease, maybe surgical gloves could be a handy compact item to keep in our pack/pocket/medical kit when we're on the road. I never really thought about it till now, although we do have some in our first aid kit in the bathroom [not much use there if you come across an accident on the road though]. As for mouth to mouth, well, you are either moved sufficiently by the victim's plight to do it if you consider it necessary or not. We should all give serious thought to what we should/could do (especially those of us who are not medically trained) as in the heat of the moment we might be less likely to dither or procrastinate. Another good reason for carrying (charged :doh:) phone - never know when it might be needed, and not necessarily for yourself!

[discotex]

This is turning into a novel sized discussion..


Just checked in so excuse late reply. Can't agree that stigma is promoted by the post. Tho mighta been better to highlight as you did that this is not going to be a factor most cases. I just think it is best to be as safe as possible - and most responsible. In no way did I suggest people should not do CPR on others. It is possible to have a win win and no worries -

Ok fair call that you didn't actually say don't do it but you certainly made it sound like helping someone in need is an extremely a risky thing to do which is not actually the case (aside from the moving cars and petrol etc)



?Billion to one odds of transmission you say - now thats going to the extreme -if it were not a fair concern they why did our qualified CPR instructors always cover this and recommend masks?

Most likely that they're expecting professionals to encounter many incidents where they would risk exposure - ambos, firemen, police, etc. I imagine they then use the same standard training material for corporate courses.



And can you back up your odds comparisons?
I'd doubt it - as the numbers of tattoos done would allow good ballpark estimates of odds of catching a bbv - but the infrequency of CPR would make sure no good stats can be gathered on this possible mode of transmission.

We could do some basic guessing... Canadian OSH stats there is a 0.3% chance of a needlestick/direct-cut-contact resulting in an HIV infection. Hep C as 1.8%.

I'm sure someone so inclined could do the maths and work out:

1) the odds of the particular victim having HIV or Hep C
2) the odds of yourself having an open wound and getting infected blood in it (largely a guess but very low unless you were in the crash yourself)
3) add the percent chance above

I'm sure there are a number of other factors that all reduce the likelihood. Personally I do think it'll be in the 1:million to 1:billion range.

I'd be interested to know (I looked but couldn't find) what the number of non needle-stick blood exposure related HCV or HIV infections per decade is in NZ. I'm willing to bet it doesn't make an average of 5 per decade.



I'd agree it is not a huge risk but its a lot higher than billion to one - for one the main risk group (iv users) is at greater risk of serious crashing than most of those outside the risk group. At about double the risk (IMMORTAL study). Some risk of dealing with someone with a bbv is therefore there. A risk that can be eliminated is worth considering.

You make a big assumption (incorrectly) that it's mainly druggies that:

a) crash - as although risk of crash is higher number is still very low as there are very few iv drugs users compared with the general population - 2x10 is still lower than 1x1000 for example.
b) have Hep C - Although new cases are largely iv users as far as I know the majority of Hep C sufferers in NZ are hemophiliacs that were given infected clotting agent before blood screening came in in the early 90's.



When you have had a needle stick injury and months of worry as a result of attending to someones healthcare without employing sufficient self care techniques, I think maybe you'll relate to the safety first principle. It cant hurt anyone, so whats the issue .

In a nutshell....

If a life isn't saved because someone doesn't have a mask that's doing a lot more harm than infecting someone with Hep C. Hep C is hardly a life-ending disease anyway (although shortening in a percent of cases).

There's nothing wrong with considering it as one of a whole host of things in life that are a risk. That said I think you overstate the risk at the risk of scaring someone into inaction.

My other issue is with the tone of your post (largely the quoted bits). It comes across to me as very negative towards people with blood borne diseases (in other words it comes across that you're saying "they're all gay druggies so watch out" but more politely). I'm sure that's not what you mean to convey but.....

[candor]

This is turning into a novel sized discussion..

Most likely that they're expecting professionals to encounter many incidents where they would risk exposure - ambos, firemen, police, etc. I imagine they then use the same standard training material for corporate courses.

I'd be interested to know (I looked but couldn't find) what the number of non needle-stick blood exposure related HCV or HIV infections per decade is in NZ. I'm willing to bet it doesn't make an average of 5 per decade.

You make a big assumption (incorrectly) that it's mainly druggies that:

a) crash - as although risk of crash is higher number is still very low as there are very few iv drugs users compared with the general population - 2x10 is still lower than 1x1000 for example.
b) have Hep C - Although new cases are largely iv users as far as I know the majority of Hep C sufferers in NZ are hemophiliacs that were given infected clotting agent before blood screening came in in the early 90's.

My other issue is with the tone of your post (largely the quoted bits). It comes across to me as very negative towards people with blood borne diseases (in other words it comes across that you're saying "they're all gay druggies so watch out" but more politely). I'm sure that's not what you mean to convey but.....

Tone is hard to convey :devil2: I once had a partner with it and he was often ill and care both sides prevented transmission. So rest assured I'm far from "judgmental" - just aware its best avoided if you like eating fish n chips without a nausea response (:

No most crashers are not drug users but they are still shown in many studies to crash way more than others so that would up the odds. A quarter or less of IV users are in treatment programs and in NZ they are tested showing a 70% prevalence. Current IV users being 1% of population the sometime users would be more. At a guess 2%. If they crash twice as often as studies siggest that makes 4% of crash victims with the iv user status risk factor and a 7/10 chance of a bbv so back to 3% again. And much much lower for hiv. I'd call a one in 30 chance would make precautions worth considering - maybe not if it was a one in 3000 tho. Everyone would have diff risk acceptance I guess.

Yep my CPR training was prolly directed to people with higher risk exposure (hospital staff). A cursory fact finding look at the hep c website in response to someone saying hardly anyone has it, saw only iv users not haemophiliacs mentioned. The numbers weren't insubstantial and an awareness ad I just on telly the first time a few minutes ago said there are 30g diagnosed, with large numbers also not.

As for the number of non needle stick blood exposure caught bbv in a decade I can assure you it is much higher than 5 a decade. I have 2 friends who got hiv thru sex, and my mother worked as an hiv specialist nurse for 20 years and dealt with many cases of hiv caught by both sexes through partners they thought were faithful. Thats how one of my mates got it - did not make for a harmonioos relationship the few years after diagnosis tho they are OK now. Nuff said by me - hopefully :sleep:.