Fork cartridges...Ohlins vs Traxxion

[Tony.OK]

Ok so I hope this does'nt annoy certain people but here goes....
Based on standard delivered from factory settings is one brand better than the other?
I currently have Traxxion AK-20's in and have the opportunity to get some Ohlins FGK 126 cartridges with superbike valve specs for a very very good price,I'm having trouble getting a good set up with the AK's,am tearing fronts fairly badly,I've tried just about everything to improve the wear but not getting anywhere,am happy with the handling though.
With whatever I get back on selling my AK's this makes the Ohlins an even better deal,only trouble is that "yes" they are privately imported.
I'm not trying to stir anyone up but being without sponsorship and on a very limited budget money does count,especially when the difference is into the 4 figure mark.

[Pussy]

Hey Tony, I'm not a racer, but have had experience of both cartridges you mention as a road rider. From my experience, I have found the performance of the Ohlins cartridges to be primo.
I had the first set of AK20s in a road bike in NZ (fitted to a K4 GSX-R1000). As delivered, they had quite weak high speed rebound, RT revalved them a couple of times to get the ideal setting. The AK20s were of course valved a bit less aggressive on the compression side to make them more comfy for my road riding.
After some time, and not being 100% delighted with the AK20s ( bearing in mind I am no "gun" rider), I got RT to get me a set of FGK cartridges, to give them a bash. For starters, the quality of manufacture of the Ohlins articles is very obvious. They are VERY well toleranced, and offer virtually zero stiction. Again, RT valved them to suit my road riding, and I was off, happier than a pig in shit. I transferred these cartridges to my K6 GSX-R1000 when I bought that. Same deal
The FGK119 cartridges don't fit the K6 750, but RT traded them on the set I now have in my 750. There are lots of valving combinations available, with dyno print out graphs for each one. The possibilities of fine tuning them are broad.
My .05c worth is go for it, I'm sure you'll be rapt with the Ohlins

[Robert Taylor]

Ok so I hope this does'nt annoy certain people but here goes....
Based on standard delivered from factory settings is one brand better than the other?
I currently have Traxxion AK-20's in and have the opportunity to get some Ohlins FGK 126 cartridges with superbike valve specs for a very very good price,I'm having trouble getting a good set up with the AK's,am tearing fronts fairly badly,I've tried just about everything to improve the wear but not getting anywhere,am happy with the handling though.
With whatever I get back on selling my AK's this makes the Ohlins an even better deal,only trouble is that "yes" they are privately imported.
I'm not trying to stir anyone up but being without sponsorship and on a very limited budget money does count,especially when the difference is into the 4 figure mark.

I hear what you are saying and will come back with a full reply that is totally BS free, cold hard facts as over the years I have dealt intensively with both products. Dont commit to them just yet as it needs to be established what springs they come with and if they have the current pistons fitted that we used with great success with Bugden, Stroud, Shirriffs, Jones, Cudlin, Charlett, Smart, Smith, Sadowski x 2, Fitzgerald, Williams and a whole host of other very happy customers. Point of fact we did a lot of development with these cartridges and the same specs have been forwarded to and are now being used by Giles, Coxell and Robbie in Oz.
Give me until tonight.

[Tony.OK]

I hear what you are saying and will come back with a full reply that is totally BS free, cold hard facts as over the years I have dealt intensively with both products. Dont commit to them just yet as it needs to be established what springs they come with and if they have the current pistons fitted that we used with great success with Bugden, Stroud, Shirriffs, Jones, Cudlin, Charlett, Smart, Smith, Sadowski x 2, Fitzgerald, Williams and a whole host of other very happy customers. Point of fact we did a lot of development with these cartridges and the same specs have been forwarded to and are now being used by Giles, Coxell and Robbie in Oz.
Give me until tonight.

Thanks for that Robert,if it helps they were ordered from Ohlins 2 weeks ago and will be sprung for my weight(9.5 or 10.0 spring,85kg rider no gear,06 1000rr).
I really don't want to tread on toes either,the AK's worked really well with my lighter wheels but now I've got the stock wheels back on I'm struggling to get it right.

[cowpoos]

Ok so I hope this does'nt annoy certain people but here goes....
Based on standard delivered from factory settings is one brand better than the other?
I currently have Traxxion AK-20's in and have the opportunity to get some Ohlins FGK 126 cartridges with superbike valve specs for a very very good price,I'm having trouble getting a good set up with the AK's,am tearing fronts fairly badly,I've tried just about everything to improve the wear but not getting anywhere,am happy with the handling though.
With whatever I get back on selling my AK's this makes the Ohlins an even better deal,only trouble is that "yes" they are privately imported.
I'm not trying to stir anyone up but being without sponsorship and on a very limited budget money does count,especially when the difference is into the 4 figure mark.

In all honstey..I think you have jumped the gun!!


the ak20 cartridges can be made to work really well...with a few exceptions...from what I hear and know from having them myself...those cartridges are capable of doing 1:06 lap times around manfield...with specific valving specs that robert taylor has developed...along with a ttx36 shock. on a bernard R1 last year at the nats..so those facts point toward the fact that the product is not the limiting factor? I'm not trying to put you down..just trying to enlighten the cost effectivness of your change..

and maybe enligjhten you to the fact that ur money may have been better spent??

[Robert Taylor]

In all honstey..I think you have jumped the gun!!


the ak20 cartridges can be made to work really well...with a few exceptions...from what I hear and know from having them myself...those cartridges are capable of doing 1:06 lap times around manfield...with specific valving specs that robert taylor has developed...along with a ttx36 shock. on a bernard R1 last year at the nats..so those facts point toward the fact that the product is not the limiting factor? I'm not trying to put you down..just trying to enlighten the cost effectivness of your change..

and maybe enligjhten you to the fact that ur money may have been better spent??

No he hasnt jumped the gun as the lap record was again lowered at Manfield again this year, by several who were using Ohlins cartridges. Bear in mind that (arguably ) the Superbikes are perhaps not quite as ''engine quick'' due to the more restricted engine rules. Also bear in mind that lap records were broken at every track by the Superbikes and again usually by at least 2 or 3 riders. As we were predominantly doing our cartridge setting changes/ development with these guys I think I can fairly state that much of this improvement in lap times came from the front.
A little bit of history and please forgive me if my dates are not quite accurate. Up until 97 /98 the ''dim dark ages'' were such that aftermarket suspension components were banned in production racing in NZ. ( I know someone is possibly going to bitch at me for saying that )It was recognised that the cocktail of ever increasing power, wider and stickier tyres, loadings and our bumpy tracks were overcoming the limitations of stock suspension, eating tyres and among myriad other factors was unfair to both lightweight and heavyweight riders etc etc etc.
At that stage we were usually just fitting appropriate springs with an oil viscosity change in the forks. Improvement being a term of relativity.
A little while later we were fitting aftermarket piston kits into the stock cartridges be they Ohlins, Race Tech or Traxxion.
Then a few years later Traxxion I think were the first to introduce an aftermarket complete drop in cartridge kit. I was told by the manufacturer that the settings were perfect and that I wouldnt need to do any revalving. That was unfortunately not the case so we worked at it laboriously until we had much improved settings, but as has now been clearly revealed by the performance of the Ohlins kits the performance of the AKs is lacking in comparison and ultimately limited.
Brutally, most manufacturers of high end aftermarket cartridges have embraced the 25mm size, whereas Traxxion has stuck with 20mm. In simple terms a 25mm piston is going to push more fluid for any given distance of movement and that is ( frankly ) a big bonus under brakes. But also the ''mid valve'' ( opposite side of rebound piston ) is a wave washer and checkplate type which is now far less common and frankly inferior if you want to build cartridges with great dynamic ride height control and brake dive control.
The moment the fork moves in compression the first thing that moves is that checkplate, which then stops against its travel limiter seat at full lift and bypasses oil from one side of the rebound piston to the other. The only thing that ( remotely ) modulates its rate of lift is a wave washer or two in tandem.
The system used in Ohlins cartridges ( and not exclusive to Ohlins ) is a bending shim stack midvalve that modulates the flow very well according to the fork velocity, the higher the velocity the more the lift, the less the velocity the less the lift. With a check plate set up it basically just stops at full lift and thats what youve got whether you need full lift or not. With the Ohlins system much much more emphasis for compression damping control is placed on that midvalve as it is the primary moving component. This means also that the compression base valve does less of that duty and can have a less aggressive setting, for these reasons the forks are not only remarkably controlled but also very responsive and plush.
Most of our work with these forks was spent making detail changes to the mid valve calibration to afford even better brake dive control, which in turn gave more liberty to run alternative rear shock rebound calibration.
Because the check plate midvalve ''lets the horse bolt'' straight away it then places an overemphasis on oil level ( and therefore secondary air spring compression ratio ) to control final bottoming out. WHAT REALLY PROVES that line of thinking is that when we recalibrated the Ohlins mid valves for more brake dive control we actually found we could lower the oil level in the forks. So, the best work is done ''straight away'' at the start of the stroke and not later on by trying to arrest the runaway horse with a higher than ideal oil level ( too progressive in air spring ) that will compromise ultimate grip.
And thats another issue, how is final bottoming out control effected? With Traxxion it is merely by oil level before there is metal to metal contact, usually the underside of the top cap striking the top of the inner tube. Ohlins still of course rely on oil level but it is a little less sensitive to same because of the aforementioned reasons. BUT they also have internal bottoming out rubbers timed to engage 3mm or more before there is metal to metal contact.
Another long term operational/ longevity problem we have found with Traxxion is that the seating surface for a washer below the cartridge top cap is precariously narrow. It doesnt take too many racing miles for that surface to flog out thereby losing some tension and seal on the floating o ring and bushing set up. This is fixable but has a lifespan. The rebound rod is also oversized, that means if a coarse pitch 10mm thread is required at the top of the rod ( common size for many caps ) the wall thickness becomes dangerously thin and many rods have been broken overseas.
In deference to my opening statement you may very well have jumped the gun in at least one respect. FGK126 are very early series Ohlins cartridges ( now out of production ) and the first ones used checkplate midvalves. It will still work better than your current cartridges but falls well short of what is now possible. POINT OF FACT the CBR is in relative terms the ''brake dive weight transference bike from hell'' which is why you are so attentive to this issue. Relative to this Hayden Fitzgerald used Traxxion in the front of his CBR last season and during testing at the start of this season. We then fitted FGK126 that we upgraded to the new pistons and continued with our ongoing upgrades. But straight away he was way happier than with the Traxxion. Tony Rees also guest rode an FGK equipped R1 at Pukekohe and remarked straight away just how great the front end was in comparison to the Traxxion stuff he had used previously.
Another advantage with the Ohlins is that they have longer top out springs to both minimise wheelies ( not standard in FGK126 ) that we developed right here in NZ with Sam Smith and Robbie Bugden, now adopted by the factory. This also counteracts the effect of main spring preload, making the fork a little more responsive at the top reaches of its stroke. That can pay a small but useful dividend in sidegrip when accelerating out of corners under power.
Buying goods cheaply offshore often occurs no saving at all. To bring it up to the specs we have successfully developed for on track and also road use it will need the latest series rebound / midvalve pistons allied with the valving that we have developed ( and successfully ''exported'' across to OZ and also to our viking friends ) I need to check the spec card but I am 99% sure the spring rate is also going to be too light.
Bumpy tracks and roads often are counter-intuitive to how you set up suspension. It is not uncommon to fit firmish spring rates to keep the bike high in its stroke in the compliant part of travel. Also to arrest sudden abrupt movements such as dive into slow corners and g outs etc. Fast flowing tracks and roads with no sudden chassis pitch movements can often run softer rates.
Remember that the components are just a tool and I dont know what the salesmen across the water have told you ? They have no idea of our local tracks / roads nor will they care. Just last week I repaired a set of Ohlins cartridges that had been bought in second hand from the States. They were still fitted with the standard .9 springs that we automatically change to a firmer rate here before sending to the individual customers. Clearly the Yankee pilot on board had lived on too much fast food as the bottom out it had experienced was so violent that it had internal and costly damage. TOO MUCH PRODUCT is sold by people who possess neither the infrastrucure / knowledge or sincerity to back it up properly. Its not as bad as buying a helmet or boots offshore to find they dont fit, at least this is upgradeable. I know I get maligned for saying such things but it is an irrefutable fact.
Yes, it is possible to win races using the Traxxion stuff but I will also say that given the settings we have come up with it takes a rider who is prepared to stick their kneck out a little further. In production superbike and 600cc sports production we spent most of our time and also upgraded settings in course for the non distributor team riders using our kit. ALL production superbike and 600cc sports production races were won using Ohlins cartridge kit and TTX36. At the recent Daytona 200 the first 3 bikes were Ohlins equipped, as were the first 3 600s.

Local backup is a very important part of the equation. I am always available to point out all the whys and wherefores beforehand.And that can save money!

[HDTboy]

But Robert, I can save a few hundred dollars if I parallel import the stuff.

[cowpoos]

No he hasnt jumped the gun as the lap record was again lowered at Manfield again this year, by several who were using Ohlins cartridges. Bear in mind that (arguably ) the Superbikes are perhaps not quite as ''engine quick''


what I was getting at Robert...is that Tony is not doing 1:06's no offence to him or your product...but In his case...his cartridge brand/type is probally not limiting his progress in terms of lap times at the moment...hadyen Fiz was still doing some seriously respectable lap times on his traxxion equiped cbr...with non ttx rear shock...there is most likely better settings to be found within his riding style and evolution or settings for his cartridges...smae goes for those that advocate new tyres...top top guys...the difference between new and used tyres is about .250-.400 of a second a lap at manfield...I mean...thats nothing!! most club level racers are not that consistant with brand new tyres let alone second hand ones...

My point was merely about where money is best spent...and within the speed range that tony would be lapping in at the moment...there will be a better comprimise in settings before a need for a product chage would be neccersary...not to mention...track craft...trying different tyre pressures...genral tracktime/race time...testing...hunderds of different things...argubly 3k spent on aussie superbike school would be a better investment than alot of things a racer could spend 3k on...

and in regaurds to the engines...the suzukis are making slitly more power this year...not much...and not sure about the other brands..

Like I said earilier..I'm not trying to put anyone down...just a sense of realisium was in order I felt...:)

[Tony.OK]

Maybe I should be a little clearer,the cartridges I'm looking at are brand new,will be sprung for me with 10.0 springs(same as I have in now) and will cost me $1600NZD landed,so more than a few hundred dollars saved.
Robert i appreciate all that you have said,and have been happy with both front and rear ends supplied by you.I used the FGK 126 product name because I went to the Ohlins website to get model #,and thats all they showed for my bike.

[Tony.OK]

what I was getting at Robert...is that Tony is not doing 1:06's no offence to him or your product...but In his case...his cartridge brand/type is probally not limiting his progress in terms of lap times at the moment...hadyen Fiz was still doing some seriously respectable lap times on his traxxion equiped cbr...with non ttx rear shock...there is most likely better settings to be found within his riding style and evolution or settings for his cartridges...smae goes for those that advocate new tyres...top top guys...the difference between new and used tyres is about .250-.400 of a second a lap at manfield...I mean...thats nothing!! most club level racers are not that consistant with brand new tyres let alone second hand ones...

My point was merely about where money is best spent...and within the speed range that tony would be lapping in at the moment...there will be a better comprimise in settings before a need for a product chage would be neccersary...not to mention...track craft...trying different tyre pressures...genral tracktime/race time...testing...hunderds of different things...argubly 3k spent on aussie superbike school would be a better investment than alot of things a racer could spend 3k on...

and in regaurds to the engines...the suzukis are making slitly more power this year...not much...and not sure about the other brands..

Like I said earilier..I'm not trying to put anyone down...just a sense of realisium was in order I felt...:)

Yeah I see your point Poos,maybe I'm still a bit high from winning my 1st 2 races yesterday(slip that in hehe).

Maybe I should have asked.......is one easier to set up?does one have a broader adjustment range than the other?Not being able to afford to get things re shimmed for every race,my thought was range of useful adjustment might be better with one than the other,meaning less technical servicing.
Maybe I'll just go to bed:blink:

[Robert Taylor]

But Robert, I can save a few hundred dollars if I parallel import the stuff.

And its not going to be set up the same, if you take it for service the going rate is ceratainly going to be charged and if there is a warranty issue ( however unlikely ) the local distributor is going to tell you to go back to source. Every dollar spent offshore with these parasites is also killing NZ business, FACT. Dont complain when we reach the point of no return, NZ already has a serious skills shortage and long lead times for QUALITY service because of this and myriad other compounding factors.............

[Robert Taylor]

what I was getting at Robert...is that Tony is not doing 1:06's no offence to him or your product...but In his case...his cartridge brand/type is probally not limiting his progress in terms of lap times at the moment...hadyen Fiz was still doing some seriously respectable lap times on his traxxion equiped cbr...with non ttx rear shock...there is most likely better settings to be found within his riding style and evolution or settings for his cartridges...smae goes for those that advocate new tyres...top top guys...the difference between new and used tyres is about .250-.400 of a second a lap at manfield...I mean...thats nothing!! most club level racers are not that consistant with brand new tyres let alone second hand ones...

My point was merely about where money is best spent...and within the speed range that tony would be lapping in at the moment...there will be a better comprimise in settings before a need for a product chage would be neccersary...not to mention...track craft...trying different tyre pressures...genral tracktime/race time...testing...hunderds of different things...argubly 3k spent on aussie superbike school would be a better investment than alot of things a racer could spend 3k on...

and in regaurds to the engines...the suzukis are making slitly more power this year...not much...and not sure about the other brands..

Like I said earilier..I'm not trying to put anyone down...just a sense of realisium was in order I felt...:)

Actually it IS limiting his ultimate lap times! We have proved it many times, the better the quality of kit the faster the rider can go and the benefit is even greater for novice riders as it gives them a greater level of confidence. But you miss my point, I have pointed out the shortcomings and longevity problems with the 20mm cartridges and the now largely outmoded check plate type midvalves. That very system is a compelling reason why there is difficulty in stopping the CBR in blowing through its stroke under brakes.
I have worked with both systems over the years and believe me we have taken a quantum leap with the 25mm system, allied to bending shim satck midvalve. If you want verification talk to Hayden Fitz directly....
For those that want to spend less we are currently developing 20mm settings for standard cartridges using bending shim stack midvalve pistons. This will not reach the performance levels of 25mm Ohlins / Race Tech but will outperform 20mm aftermarket cartridges for a significantly lower cost.
As Paul Thede said the best youve ridden is the best you know....

[Tony.OK]

I knew this would turn pear shaped:shutup:

Ok at the mo my lap times at Taupo are low 1:36's with S/corser pro's not slicks
Motor is stock,want to get as fast as I can before going down that path
I know I can knock still more time off,am braking too early because of exc dive
Have played with oil levels,preload etc etc
I don't know where those times put me against experienced racers,but its getting quickish I think.

[Robert Taylor]

Maybe I should be a little clearer,the cartridges I'm looking at are brand new,will be sprung for me with 10.0 springs(same as I have in now) and will cost me $1600NZD landed,so more than a few hundred dollars saved.
Robert i appreciate all that you have said,and have been happy with both front and rear ends supplied by you.I used the FGK 126 product name because I went to the Ohlins website to get model #,and thats all they showed for my bike.

Okay, the spring rate supplied is NOT correct for those particular cartridges for our tracks, add $259.90. The rebound pistons and shimming is also not correct and not up to the settings we have refined here, add $800 for parts and labour. The internal top out springs will not be the longer type that we have found work better off our tight corner exits, add $60 Etc....
Improvement is a term of relativity and you may very well be happy but it will fall far short of what is possible and will therefore limit your ultimate lap times, moreover with that spring rate and set up you are likely to screw front tyres.
The local distributor supplies with all the latest specs dialed to our own track conditions! There is also a funny perception that the product needs reshimming for every track. In the case of the top riders we are there to help push the envelope for them all the time but also we have been ( largely through our own interest ) trying new settings all the time. This has a flow through effect to the non distributor riders who have purchased kit off us, ask Kyle Key about the upgrade we did to his forks at Pukekohe, at no charge.
If you had checked with me first I would have told you all this. Same answers, cold clinical technical truth.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah I see your point Poos,maybe I'm still a bit high from winning my 1st 2 races yesterday(slip that in hehe).

Maybe I should have asked.......is one easier to set up?does one have a broader adjustment range than the other?Not being able to afford to get things re shimmed for every race,my thought was range of useful adjustment might be better with one than the other,meaning less technical servicing.
Maybe I'll just go to bed:blink:

The Ohlins stuff is a lot easier to work on, actually does have a wider response range and the springs are an absolute delight to change and change quickly. I believe ( not arrogantly so ) that I am more than qualified to answer that given extensive experience with all systems.

[Tony.OK]

Okay, the spring rate supplied is NOT correct for those particular cartridges for our tracks, add $259.90. The rebound pistons and shimming is also not correct and not up to the settings we have refined here, add $800 for parts and labour. The internal top out springs will not be the longer type that we have found work better off our tight corner exits, add $60 Etc....
Improvement is a term of relativity and you may very well be happy but it will fall far short of what is possible and will therefore limit your ultimate lap times, moreover with that spring rate and set up you are likely to screw front tyres.
The local distributor supplies with all the latest specs dialed to our own track conditions! There is also a funny perception that the product needs reshimming for every track. In the case of the top riders we are there to help push the envelope for them all the time but also we have been ( largely through our own interest ) trying new settings all the time. This has a flow through effect to the non distributor riders who have purchased kit off us, ask Kyle Key about the upgrade we did to his forks at Pukekohe, at no charge.
If you had checked with me first I would have told you all this. Same answers, cold clinical technical truth.

Ok thankyou Robert,
This was why I posted this thread,to check 1st,I haven't brought anything yet.

[Robert Taylor]

I knew this would turn pear shaped:shutup:

Ok at the mo my lap times at Taupo are low 1:36's with S/corser pro's not slicks
Motor is stock,want to get as fast as I can before going down that path
I know I can knock still more time off,am braking too early because of exc dive
Have played with oil levels,preload etc etc
I don't know where those times put me against experienced racers,but its getting quickish I think.

Heck no reason to knock the wind out of your sails but if you had checked with me first I could have given you the pre-knowledge that nothing is ever as it seems! And those deals out of the States fall into that category, this is a little different to buying clothing etc.
As I am linked straight into Ohlins Sweden Technical database and in fact do development work for them I can provide totally accurate information
PROUDLY, I am an engineer first and foremost before being a salesman and to that degree you will get totally candid answers. I think also there is a danger via these forums of disseminating way too much bad advice / ''information''.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok thankyou Robert,
This was why I posted this thread,to check 1st,I haven't brought anything yet.

Well thats good news, especially for you! As I have just eluded to forums are not always such a good way of airing such matters because all too often people with only very limited knowledge will say their piece. It then eats time re-justifying ones standpoint. You know how to get hold of me and maybe you should as I believe I may have a solution at reasonable cost.

[Tony.OK]

Ok enough said.

[HDTboy]

The Ohlins stuff is a lot easier to work on, actually does have a wider response range and the springs are an absolute delight to change and change quickly.

The Ohlins forks are absolutely wonderful to work with. Twas funny to see how big a bite Robert took with my earlier comment though. :bleh:

[gixerracer]

I knew this would turn pear shaped:shutup:

Ok at the mo my lap times at Taupo are low 1:36's with S/corser pro's not slicks
Motor is stock,want to get as fast as I can before going down that path
I know I can knock still more time off,am braking too early because of exc dive
Have played with oil levels,preload etc etc
I don't know where those times put me against experienced racers,but its getting quickish I think.

As a reasonably experienced racer I think I can vouch for the ohlins product over the AK20 as I have reced on both even won a championship on the AK20 in my 600 and they are pretty good but the new ohlins is another step again. As for silly MR POOS comment about the lap record at manfeild last year at a 1.06 I think he may find that this was ther first metting on ohlins forks and that may be the reason why there results were crap down south because they didnt have them? Poos plese correct me if im wrong:wacko:
The ak20 may well be worth spending money on and getting them revalved but if you can sell them and put the money towards buying ohlins from robert thath would be the best way.
We were doing 1.36/37 round Taupo on the the track using the shitty little bit going around the old hairpin etc I would think 1.30 or high 20's woulod be the pace on the new track.

[Robert Taylor]

As a reasonably experienced racer I think I can vouch for the ohlins product over the AK20 as I have reced on both even won a championship on the AK20 in my 600 and they are pretty good but the new ohlins is another step again. As for silly MR POOS comment about the lap record at manfeild last year at a 1.06 I think he may find that this was ther first metting on ohlins forks and that may be the reason why there results were crap down south because they didnt have them? Poos plese correct me if im wrong:wacko:
The ak20 may well be worth spending money on and getting them revalved but if you can sell them and put the money towards buying ohlins from robert thath would be the best way.
We were doing 1.36/37 round Taupo on the the track using the shitty little bit going around the old hairpin etc I would think 1.30 or high 20's woulod be the pace on the new track.

Actually thanks for that clarification Craig, Seato was also using Ohlins front for the second time ( first time out was at Paeroa ) at Manfield. And those were the old settings.

[Robert Taylor]

The Ohlins forks are absolutely wonderful to work with. Twas funny to see how big a bite Robert took with my earlier comment though. :bleh:

Youd have been dissappointed if I didnt bite!

[Tony.OK]

We were doing 1.36/37 round Taupo on the the track using the shitty little bit going around the old hairpin etc I would think 1.30 or high 20's woulod be the pace on the new track.

Hahaa at least I had one day of feeling good about where I'm at..........:crazy:thanks Craig lol.

[HDTboy]

Youd have been dissappointed if I didnt bite!

You're right, but it's like fishing with dynamite

[Shaun]

Hahaa at least I had one day of feeling good about where I'm at..........:crazy:thanks Craig lol.




Keep fealing good mate, you are doing very well, and it does take time, to get even close to Craig S and other fast riders

[gixerracer]

Hahaa at least I had one day of feeling good about where I'm at..........:crazy:thanks Craig lol.

Dont get me wrong mate I wasnt trying to burst your bubble or anything I think you are doing a great job I was just trying to give my thoughts as there can be some pretty bad advice handed around about suspension in this country what ever you buy make sure it comes with back up as nothing is ever very good straight out the box generally. Roberts going to hate me for this but i still remember when I finally got my first after market rear shock which was Ohlins:banana: and I couldnt wait to get out on it and when I did I hated it the standard shock I used the year before that we had put some heavy oil in was way better but after spending time pulling it apart changing sprinigs etc etc it was bloddy great so that is why it is important to buy something that you can quality service and information on. Hope it all helps.
Cheers

[Robert Taylor]

Dont get me wrong mate I wasnt trying to burst your bubble or anything I think you are doing a great job I was just trying to give my thoughts as there can be some pretty bad advice handed around about suspension in this country what ever you buy make sure it comes with back up as nothing is ever very good straight out the box generally. Roberts going to hate me for this but i still remember when I finally got my first after market rear shock which was Ohlins:banana: and I couldnt wait to get out on it and when I did I hated it the standard shock I used the year before that we had put some heavy oil in was way better but after spending time pulling it apart changing sprinigs etc etc it was bloddy great so that is why it is important to buy something that you can quality service and information on. Hope it all helps.
Cheers

No I dont hate you, you have reinforced the obvious. There are too many people selling product with woefully inadequate product knowledge and backup. That is nothing less than immoral.

[cowpoos]

Actually thanks for that clarification Craig, Seato was also using Ohlins front for the second time .


As for silly MR POOS comment about the lap record at manfeild last year at a 1.06 I think he may find that this was ther first metting on ohlins forks and that may be the reason why there results were crap down south because they didnt have them? Poos plese correct me if im wrong:wacko:


I'm wrong...:cool: would have swore I saw ak20 sticker on the bikes forks though!!


anyway...

I know what you guys...are saying.
I was merely pointing out that...does the up and coming racer need to have the best and latest equipment to improve his lap times?? does getting the cheque book out the sensible way of doing it always?? I'm not debating which product is better..or if newer more evolved product isn't better...I have no doubt its better...companys in the legue of Ohlins et al are not usually in the habbit of realeasing inferior products!! and yes your point of brake dive..well valid..I have same problem with my ak20's..try heavy brake..end up dam near looping the fucking thing..crank up low speed compression or spring or combinations of both or fork oil high changes etc..just leads to other issuse's!! but it still didn't haulter myself consitantly dropping laptimes at every race meeting..and learning..sure I would have love a better setup..but hey..I only had a limited budget to race with..so it was within that I raced.

but meh...I really don't think anyone is getting my megure little point/opinion. ;)

[Robert Taylor]

I'm wrong...:cool: would have swore I saw ak20 sticker on the bikes forks though!!


anyway...

I know what you guys...are saying.
I was merely pointing out that...does the up and coming racer need to have the best and latest equipment to improve his lap times?? does getting the cheque book out the sensible way of doing it always?? I'm not debating which product is better..or if newer more evolved product isn't better...I have no doubt its better...companys in the legue of Ohlins et al are not usually in the habbit of realeasing inferior products!! and yes you point of brake dive..well valid..I have same problem with my ak20's..try heavy brake..end up dam near looping the fucking thing..crank up low speed compression or spring or combinations of both or fork oil high changes etc..just leads to other issuse's!! but it still didn't haulter myself consitantly dropping laptimes at every race meeting..and learning..sure I would have love a better setup..but hey..I only had a limited budget to race with..so it was within that I raced.

but meh...I really don't think anyhone is getting might megure little point/opinion. ;)

1 ) That is because either the team probably lacked the discipline to have the correct stickers or you confused it with say Scotty Charltons bike. The Ohlins front fork cartridge and rear TTX36 combo in Seatos bike was clearly working though, against the next nearest guy, his own team mate Scotty Charlton running AK20 front / old type Ohlins rear. Before Seato started to dramatically tire due to the debilitating effects of his shoulder injury ( from the practice crash ) he had basically the length of the pit straight lead on Scotty. So to ''poo poo'' an earlier statement of yours that .4 or so of a second per lap improvement is not much....well it accumulates over a race distance.
As for stickers one shouldnt always believe what one sees...Peter Brock ran Mobil 1 stickers / livery on his cars for years and peddled the stuff on television, but he certainly didnt actually use the dodgy stuff!
2 ) To coin an old phrase Ive had more AK20s and then Ohlins FGK apart than many people have had hot dinners. Its very clear which is the much better piece of kit. The ''blowing through its stroke'' problem starts with the checkplate midvalve ''allowing the horse to bolt'' and is in no way helped by the size of ports in the base compression pistons. If you increase the preload on the valving stack or increase the overall stiffness of the stack you will to a degree get rid of the brake dive problem but the flipside is the low speed compression damping becomes way overfirm giving a very harsh fork. What I am saying is that the base components do not allow for that to be fixed. Playing with spring rates and oil level to control bottoming is really controlling an end event as a band aid, the real problem occurs at the start of stroke ( hydraulically ) and then through the stroke ( hydraulically ) The ''mid and high speed ''slope'' of the damping graph is too shallow to ''catch'' such movement.

Actually we can ( thinking about it ) make a dramatic improvement to these cartridges by fitting our old faithful Ohlins 20mm pistons or a Race Tech bending shim stack midvalve / rebound piston matched to a Race Tech G2R base piston with a large diameter but still bending shadowing shim.....

The goalposts keep moving and I think that in as many ways as possible we should be tenacious enough to not get left behind by the rest of the developed world.

Poos your round next time!!!!!

[Tony.OK]

Dont get me wrong mate I wasnt trying to burst your bubble or anything I think you are doing a great job I was just trying to give my thoughts ,Hope it all helps.
Cheers

Nah I was just taking the piss mate,I know I've got a ways to go yet,pity I've decided to start at 35 hahaa,times already running out:blink:

[Tony.OK]

I was merely pointing out that...does the up and coming racer need to have the best and latest equipment to improve his lap times?? does getting the cheque book out the sensible way of doing it always??
but meh...I really don't think anyone is getting my megure little point/opinion. ;)

I totally get ya Poos,I asked the orig question thinking maybe one product had a wider scope for adjustment,sending forks off whenever something doesn't feel right doesn't appeal to my wallet.
Mmmmmmmm now where did I see that slipper clutch:drool:

[HDTboy]

I'm not sure if you're aware that revalving is part of Robert's aftersales service. When you buy your gear from him, he revalves for the fee of freight, or can do it at the track at no charge (so far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong).

[Robert Taylor]

I'm not sure if you're aware that revalving is part of Robert's aftersales service. When you buy your gear from him, he revalves for the fee of freight, or can do it at the track at no charge (so far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong).

In truth we have optimised the settings on those FGK cartridges pretty well. Again the perception is that constant revalving is a neccessity, in truth it is us pushing the envelope all the time for the contracted distributor riders we work with. But we still find time to help other people that have purchased product from us. If they buy offshore ( and especially havent even given us the chance ) then they pay the going rate. That is fair.

Heck, if we werent at the circuits with our trackside revalving capability would there be anybody else there doing it? Everyone would be riding around with what they brung....The Ohlins cartridges have lifted the game ( with more to come ) and the trackside service has lifted the game. Frankly, as a term of comparison Kiwi road racers are very well served at a low cost. Those that have been overseas will agree with that 110%.

[Shaun]

In truth we have optimised the settings on those FGK cartridges pretty well. Again the perception is that constant revalving is a neccessity, in truth it is us pushing the envelope all the time for the contracted distributor riders we work with. But we still find time to help other people that have purchased product from us. If they buy offshore ( and especially havent even given us the chance ) then they pay the going rate. That is fair.

Heck, if we werent at the circuits with our trackside revalving capability would there be anybody else there doing it? Everyone would be riding around with what they brung....The Ohlins cartridges have lifted the game ( with more to come ) and the trackside service has lifted the game. Frankly, as a term of comparison Kiwi road racers are very well served at a low cost. Those that have been overseas will agree with that 110%.



The service you provide at the race tracks is very valuable to the riders that want to improve-win!- You and I both know how much working together in past, helped me to claim a few plates over the years mate!!!!! Thanks!

BUT SORRY, Re running what ya brung i.e. NO REWORK from the box

Steve wood, set pole position, and won one race at Pukekohe at the last round of the NZ champs, using a PENSKE shock, as it came from the factory, with only 2 adjustments, EXTERNALL ONLY!

As well as using Traxxion GAS CARTRIDGES in his forks, RE SPRUNG BY YOU! Thanks again.

Ohlin's and your service is brilliant, but there is an alternative availlable now, that seems to work from the BOX AS DELIVERED- well, in this case anyway.

As Craig S has said, his Traxxion AK 20 was good/great! But the new spec Ohlin;s fork kit you deal with, has gone a step further, But in fairness to traxxion AK20 Kit, it was a few years ago that Craig last used there product, so it is very hard to compare an apple with a Peach!

I realise as a technician, you have tested and re developed your product for the NZ market place ( Great for all concerened) but there are people looking for improvements from what they have, ( At the lowest possible cost) and the traxxion AK 20 kit, is very well priced, and works very very well!

PS, your workshop is going to look very Kool when finished, many riders will have to take a trip to Taranaki to take a look at it:msn-wink:

[Robert Taylor]

The service you provide at the race tracks is very valuable to the riders that want to improve-win!- You and I both know how much working together in past, helped me to claim a few plates over the years mate!!!!! Thanks!

BUT SORRY, Re running what ya brung i.e. NO REWORK from the box

Steve wood, set pole position, and won one race at Pukekohe at the last round of the NZ champs, using a PENSKE shock, as it came from the factory, with only 2 adjustments, EXTERNALL ONLY!

As well as using Traxxion GAS CARTRIDGES in his forks, RE SPRUNG BY YOU! Thanks again.

Ohlin's and your service is brilliant, but there is an alternative availlable now, that seems to work from the BOX AS DELIVERED- well, in this case anyway.

As Craig S has said, his Traxxion AK 20 was good/great! But the new spec Ohlin;s fork kit you deal with, has gone a step further, But in fairness to traxxion AK20 Kit, it was a few years ago that Craig last used there product, so it is very hard to compare an apple with a Peach!

I realise as a technician, you have tested and re developed your product for the NZ market place ( Great for all concerened) but there are people looking for improvements from what they have, ( At the lowest possible cost) and the traxxion AK 20 kit, is very well priced, and works very very well!

PS, your workshop is going to look very Kool when finished, many riders will have to take a trip to Taranaki to take a look at it:msn-wink:

That is in all reality only half the story. As I believe it Terry Fitz won the last race and broke the lap record in doing so. Bear in mind that Steve is a young and very aggressive rider ( and a very polite one to boot ) and is prepared to hang it on the edge much more so than the codgy old guys he is racing with! Terry ''woke up'' and then set a new lap record, as he had also done at Manfield.
Its also very relevant to point out that Steve Wood set pole positions at other tracks and won his first race with an old worn out Ohlins not spec'd properly for the bike.
I very much doubt that the Traxxion settings as delivered have improved and certainly all the AK20s floating around are not stock as delivered from the factory. And the Penske shock is likely to have a Traxxion piston in it. ( correct me if wrong ) The Gas cartridges are indeed better than the AKs ( at a price ) but could be a lot better again if the checkplate midvalve was ditched, all else being equal with achieving pressure balance.
I have no doubt at all that Steve would have gone faster again with an FGK kit in the front and the dedicated race setting SV Ohlins or the high spec TTX36. The very same equipment that won the F3 title, winning all but I think 3 of the races, and won all the street races.
I think it is a very dangerous thing to say that all will be well at every circuit in NZ, on every stretch of road and with every rider, out of the box. In fact I can already predict what issues there will be in our ''climate'', which are fixable. Pull apart, change, put back in the box so someone can pull it out of the box.
With respect to the AK20s knowledge that we have gained can actually be applied to make them better.

[jrandom]

I can't help but think that it would be possible to set up a controlled experiment to measure suspension performance.

Data on vertical accelerations transmitted through the top of a shock absorber (ie, ride smoothness) combined with the total amount of wheelspin (ie, how well it maintains traction) should be the desired output, no?

Not sure how you'd set that up to control all variables aside from the shock absorber itself; you'd want to be able to do some kind of repeatable run across a surface with various irregularities with identical power input to the wheel each time.

You could then reliably correlate damping curves and spring rates against ride quality and traction levels, etc.

I hear what Mr Taylor et al are saying in these threads, but it all sounds very subjective - how can one prove that a certain damping curve affects behaviour on certain surfaces at certain speeds in a certain way? Common sense, intuition, rider impressions and lap times on circuits are all well and good, but wouldn't stand up as data in a scientific journal.

Sure, you can measure how a shock performs in a machine that squeezes it and pulls it, but where's the hard correlation to how that behaviour will affect traction and ride quality?

It'd make an interesting ME thesis project.

I assume that such rigorous experimentation is performed by the engineers at Ohlins and Penske during the design process, but of course we wouldn't have access to any of the data generated thereby; it'd be strictly a trade secret.

All this ongoing suspension discussion sounds a bit like smoke and mirrors to me. Engine tuning, for instance, is easy to quantify - run the engine on a dyno and observe the torque it generates.

Suspension, though? It all seems so subjective, so 'I liked the feel of this' or 'I rode faster on that'. Robert asserts that such and such a design provides benefits, but how on earth can that be quantified?

Robert, if you have a chance to address the subject, I personally would be quite interested to see some damping curve graphs, with explanations of how each curve affects ride quality and traction on different types of surface irregularities traversed at various speeds.

Heck, I couldn't even tell you what the axes on a 'damping curve graph' should be. Would two dimensions even be sufficient?

I read all this 'high/low speed' stuff as indicating that the rate of compression does not have to change linearly as the force changes; ie, ten times the compressive force does not have to equal a ten-times-faster rate of compression - it can equal a twenty-times-faster rate, etc.

Showing the rate of compression given a particular force against a particular compression position would require three dimensions. Is that how the curves are graphed?

[Tony.OK]

I could picture a rolling deck whick can have different bumps textures added,a fixed set of forks that can lean to simulate real life,then it would just need a datalogger of sorts to measure stroke and sideways movement from a fixed line to indicate slide.
Piece of cake:2thumbsup

[jrandom]

I could picture a rolling deck whick can have different bumps textures added,a fixed set of forks that can lean to simulate real life,then it would just need a datalogger of sorts to measure stroke and sideways movement from a fixed line to indicate slide.

Yeah, that's about what I had in mind.

:niceone:

[avgas]

dude VHS is dead.
Now its FORK DVD's.

[Shaun]

That is in all reality only half the story. As I believe it Terry Fitz won the last race and broke the lap record in doing so. Bear in mind that Steve is a young and very aggressive rider ( and a very polite one to boot ) and is prepared to hang it on the edge much more so than the codgy old guys he is racing with! Terry ''woke up'' and then set a new lap record, as he had also done at Manfield.
Its also very relevant to point out that Steve Wood set pole positions at other tracks and won his first race with an old worn out Ohlins not spec'd properly for the bike.
I very much doubt that the Traxxion settings as delivered have improved and certainly all the AK20s floating around are not stock as delivered from the factory. And the Penske shock is likely to have a Traxxion piston in it. ( correct me if wrong ) The Gas cartridges are indeed better than the AKs ( at a price ) but could be a lot better again if the checkplate midvalve was ditched, all else being equal with achieving pressure balance.
I have no doubt at all that Steve would have gone faster again with an FGK kit in the front and the dedicated race setting SV Ohlins or the high spec TTX36. The very same equipment that won the F3 title, winning all but I think 3 of the races, and won all the street races.
I think it is a very dangerous thing to say that all will be well at every circuit in NZ, on every stretch of road and with every rider, out of the box. In fact I can already predict what issues there will be in our ''climate'', which are fixable. Pull apart, change, put back in the box so someone can pull it out of the box.
With respect to the AK20s knowledge that we have gained can actually be applied to make them better.




"CORRECTED" As I have told you many times now, the Penske Units I bring in, and Steve won on, are Genuine from Penske Racing Factory, NO TECHNICIAN has modified them as yet!

Traxxion Gas charched cartridges- $ 2695-00- Not to bad, and within range of another product.

I am only a middle man, so no skin of my nose what people purchase, Just trying to give a quality alternative service, with a product that I would be very happy to ride on.

[johnsv650]

i thought stevie rode very well all year, not the fastest bike, with help from robert and kerry, he got better and more confident as the nationals went on, the help we and he recieved was outstanding and we now know what the others have in there bikes,

[slowpoke]

Nah I was just taking the piss mate,I know I've got a ways to go yet,pity I've decided to start at 35 hahaa,times already running out:blink:

What the hell are you thinking dude?! This is the new millenium.....you've won a coupla races so just retire undefeated, get yourself a nice wee drug habit, a coupla skanks to look after the place and enjoy the fruits of your labours....this "constant search for improvement" business is just so last century......

Seriously, mate yours was one of the stellar performances of the weekend, and you looked so smooth doing it. That you are still thinking about sensible improvements (numpty's like me chase unuseable horsepower every time, haha), and asking questions, says a lot about why you are already so quick.

[johnsv650]

so,
robert for next year for the sv650 what do you recommend and is there any new products still to come onto the market before december 2008 and your help and advice was very confidence building and much appreciated.
whats your views on carbon fibre wheels over standard ?
shawn please answer as well......

[cowpoos]

Poos your round next time!!!!!


Mate I'm just a poor racer making my way through this highly taxed,low income world we live in!! with the high tax rates on ciggerettes and beer...its hard to get by!!

But yeah...must be my shout by now!! lol...I think I may owe craig a couple too for some reason [and a rubber duck]

[Robert Taylor]

i thought stevie rode very well all year, not the fastest bike, with help from robert and kerry, he got better and more confident as the nationals went on, the help we and he recieved was outstanding and we now know what the others have in there bikes,

Yes, his politeness and gratitude was one of my abiding memories. Such a refreshing change to ( for example ) the world of junior MX where little Johny may have had everything given to him from an early age and continues to expect nothing less.

[Tony.OK]

What the hell are you thinking dude?! This is the new millenium.....you've won a coupla races so just retire undefeated, get yourself a nice wee drug habit, a coupla skanks to look after the place and enjoy the fruits of your labours....this "constant search for improvement" business is just so last century......

Seriously, mate yours was one of the stellar performances of the weekend, and you looked so smooth doing it. That you are still thinking about sensible improvements (numpty's like me chase unuseable horsepower every time, haha), and asking questions, says a lot about why you are already so quick.

Oh you've just reminded me.......have to get bike dyno'd before it blows up:wacko:

Still chasing HP too mate,just don't want to get into the motor just yet.............its still under warranty if no one tells Mr Honda dealer its a racer hehee:lol:

[Robert Taylor]

I can't help but think that it would be possible to set up a controlled experiment to measure suspension performance.

Data on vertical accelerations transmitted through the top of a shock absorber (ie, ride smoothness) combined with the total amount of wheelspin (ie, how well it maintains traction) should be the desired output, no?

Not sure how you'd set that up to control all variables aside from the shock absorber itself; you'd want to be able to do some kind of repeatable run across a surface with various irregularities with identical power input to the wheel each time.

You could then reliably correlate damping curves and spring rates against ride quality and traction levels, etc.

I hear what Mr Taylor et al are saying in these threads, but it all sounds very subjective - how can one prove that a certain damping curve affects behaviour on certain surfaces at certain speeds in a certain way? Common sense, intuition, rider impressions and lap times on circuits are all well and good, but wouldn't stand up as data in a scientific journal.

Sure, you can measure how a shock performs in a machine that squeezes it and pulls it, but where's the hard correlation to how that behaviour will affect traction and ride quality?

It'd make an interesting ME thesis project.

I assume that such rigorous experimentation is performed by the engineers at Ohlins and Penske during the design process, but of course we wouldn't have access to any of the data generated thereby; it'd be strictly a trade secret.

All this ongoing suspension discussion sounds a bit like smoke and mirrors to me. Engine tuning, for instance, is easy to quantify - run the engine on a dyno and observe the torque it generates.

Suspension, though? It all seems so subjective, so 'I liked the feel of this' or 'I rode faster on that'. Robert asserts that such and such a design provides benefits, but how on earth can that be quantified?

Robert, if you have a chance to address the subject, I personally would be quite interested to see some damping curve graphs, with explanations of how each curve affects ride quality and traction on different types of surface irregularities traversed at various speeds.

Heck, I couldn't even tell you what the axes on a 'damping curve graph' should be. Would two dimensions even be sufficient?

I read all this 'high/low speed' stuff as indicating that the rate of compression does not have to change linearly as the force changes; ie, ten times the compressive force does not have to equal a ten-times-faster rate of compression - it can equal a twenty-times-faster rate, etc.

Showing the rate of compression given a particular force against a particular compression position would require three dimensions. Is that how the curves are graphed?

Actually the reality of testing is a whole lot less simple than thought. The most sophisticated datalogging that I work with has a very fast sampling rate and is installed in Carl Hansems megabuck TVR Tuscan race car. Even that has limitations. One of the big variables is the frequency response of the tire sidewalls. If youve got maybe 3 to 5 million to build a variable axis shake rig and have all the time in the world then go for it! No ones done that yet because it also has to take stock of commercial reality.

[Robert Taylor]

"CORRECTED" As I have told you many times now, the Penske Units I bring in, and Steve won on, are Genuine from Penske Racing Factory, NO TECHNICIAN has modified them as yet!

Traxxion Gas charched cartridges- $ 2695-00- Not to bad, and within range of another product.

I am only a middle man, so no skin of my nose what people purchase, Just trying to give a quality alternative service, with a product that I would be very happy to ride on.

2006 /07 Chris Seaton first up race winner on TTX36 straight out of the box
Sam Smith '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ''

As we have begun to understand these dampers further we have optimised the settings to our tracks to improve further yielding lower lap times etc.

When you have a shock that is ''not quite right'' ( and it WILL happen ) you have to be prepared for it

[Shaun]

2006 /07 Chris Seaton first up race winner on TTX36 straight out of the box
Sam Smith '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ''

As we have begun to understand these dampers further we have optimised the settings to our tracks to improve further yielding lower lap times etc.

When you have a shock that is ''not quite right'' ( and it WILL happen ) you have to be prepared for it



This is starting to read like some kind of a competition, So I will back out of it now, if anyone wants to ask me any questions RE Traxxion or Penske, just PM or email from now on please.

And once again, Ohlin's and Robert are good, but so is Penske and Traxxion

[Robert Taylor]

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition, So I will back out of it now, if anyone wants to ask me any questions RE Traxxion or Penske, just PM or email from now on please.

And once again, Ohlin's and Robert are good, but so is Penske and Traxxion

Only in as much as there needs to be crystal clear understanding about the actual reality of what happens and how it is all backed up etc.

[gixerracer]

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition, So I will back out of it now, if anyone wants to ask me any questions RE Traxxion or Penske, just PM or email from now on please.

And once again, Ohlin's and Robert are good, but so is Penske and Traxxion

You win Robert:jerry::Playnice:

[GSVR]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works every racer will all be forced to spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket equipment.

Production bike racing should be just that. If a manufacturer puts shit suspension on his bike then no one would race it and they would quickly start losing sales.

Its a conspiracy to rip off joe average.:jerry:

[jrandom]

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition...

Aren't we talking about motorcycle races where your products are competing on the track against Robert's, with the stickers on every race winner's forks determining a significant portion of each company's sales revenue over the following weeks?

Yeah, true, you're right, couldn't have it sounding like a competition.

;)

[jrandom]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works...

They do make safe suspension that works.

But they're not going to make the best possible suspension they can regardless of cost, or they'd start losing money hand over fist to their competitors who had a better grasp of commercial reality.

[gixerracer]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works every racer will all be forced to spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket equipment.

Production bike racing should be just that. If a manufacturer puts shit suspension on his bike then no one would race it and they would quickly start losing sales.

Its a conspiracy to rip off joe average.:jerry:

Thats a pretty sad way to look at it, if suzuki yamaha honda etc put racing suspension in there road bikes they wouldnt sell them any way because the difference required between road and track is huge and if some was to ride my gsxr 1000 with its current suspension setup race orientated on the road the would hate and want there money back anyway.

[jrandom]

if some was to ride my gsxr 1000 with its current suspension setup race orientated on the road the would hate and want there money back

Would you like a volunteer to help you test that theory?

:whistle:

[GSVR]

Thats a pretty sad way to look at it, if suzuki yamaha honda etc put racing suspension in there road bikes they wouldnt sell them any way because the difference required between road and track is huge and if some was to ride my gsxr 1000 with its current suspension setup race orientated on the road the would hate and want there money back anyway.

So if you where given a Stock out of the box(crate) GSXR you would not be able to race against another stock GSXR? Admittedly you would not break any lap records but would the bike be dangerous?

[Robert Taylor]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works every racer will all be forced to spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket equipment.

Production bike racing should be just that. If a manufacturer puts shit suspension on his bike then no one would race it and they would quickly start losing sales.

Its a conspiracy to rip off joe average.:jerry:

Oh my giddy Aunt!..............not that tired old and comprehensively discredited line of thinking again.

No-one is going to ''force'' you to spend thousands of dollars and in fact you miss the reality of why in real terms the bikes are now so affordable. Production sportsbikes have suspension that is built to a price to keep the cost down in a very competitive market, worldwide. Even more so with standard toring bikes and cruisers. The suspension must attempt to ''satisfy'' a wide range of rider height / weights and thats a very tough call, especially in markets like this where we have a much higher percentage of bumpy roads ( and tracks ) that will challenge the suspension. Largely, you get passable performance on road.
As I reasonably recall total worldwide motorcycle production for NZ per annum is approx 2 to 3 hours, woefully short of a total required to justify more individualisation to the market. So that in itself is a grip on reality....Conspiracy theories? JFK yes,''evil motorcycle manufacturers'' ripping off joe average I think not. What they are guilty of is marketing terms such as ''race bred suspension'' Say it often enough and people will believe it. Joseph Goebbels must be laughing in his grave.
Yes they could have top shelf suspension components but the end price would be significantly higher, now that would attract plenty of grizzling here in this ( too often ) insular country. And then there is always the need to individualise according to rider weight and application etc, more grizzling? Companies like Ohlins and Race Tech exist to improve suspension performance, I take my metaphorical hat off to them as such people are first and foremost engineers engaged in improving our world.
In the 70s through to mid 80s bikes had a lot less horsepower, much much more chassis flex and narrow section tyres with less grip. The loads placed on suspension components were dramatically less, so you could get away with just winding up the preload on the stock ''chatter sticks'' And there werent a great deal of options.
But this is not the 70s, we have stiff chassis and wide section tyres that put enormous force into the suspension. Add in massive engine torque and slick tyres ( for production superbike ) and those loads are further magnified. So with stock suspenders youve got a wobbling piece of jelly that squats and runs wide off corners and very quickly screws its tyres on every track in NZ.
Even at track day level I constantly field calls from riders of all capacities of bikes that are screwing their tyres with stock suspension or second hand aftermarket suspension that they have bought privately and is not sprung and set up for them.
The cure is ( of course ) good quality aftermarket suspension allied with full and proper backup. And a second level that we are working on with respecing the stock shocks, although this wont reach the same ultimate level, and frankly many of these chatter sticks you cant do a hell of a lot with.
In 600 sports production and production superbike the tyre bills would go up ENORMOUSLY if they were restricted to stock suspension, FACT. In fact the further tyre usage would eat into what was otherwise spent on suspension and some. And there is no doubt at all that crashes and injuries would increase alarmingly. That would be dumb.

[Robert Taylor]

They do make safe suspension that works.

But they're not going to make the best possible suspension they can regardless of cost, or they'd start losing money hand over fist to their competitors who had a better grasp of commercial reality.

Yep, commercial reality are the two key words.

[Robert Taylor]

so,
robert for next year for the sv650 what do you recommend and is there any new products still to come onto the market before december 2008 and your help and advice was very confidence building and much appreciated.
whats your views on carbon fibre wheels over standard ?
shawn please answer as well......

Yes indeed there is more new stuff and worthwhile incremental improvements on the way through the year. Ohlins have over 60 engineers and the biggest R&D facility of any of the top level suspension manufacturers, development is relentless.
We are also ( as previously eluded to ) having an Ohlins technician out here later in the year to run a couple of road race schools for our best Ohlins customers.
As for the CF wheels the jury may still be out over their ultimate safety for such a heavily loaded component. But certainly lightweight wheels in any material will provide immediate steering and direction change benefits because their is less inertia to changing direction. Also suspension is always ''reverberating'' between compression and rebound, reduce the inertia ''hanging off it and it too will be more responsive.

[GSVR]

I would have thought the tyre wear issue would be more noticable on the road where you don't have the luxury of tyre warmers and your tyres would cold shear. Couldn't the problem of high tyre wear be reduced by just fitting a harder compound?

To put it another way some guys in Streetstock and Postclassic with totally stuffed suspensions reacon their tyres last them a season why can't a Superbike rider get his to last for more than 20 laps?

[Robert Taylor]

I would have thought the tyre wear issue would be more noticable on the road where you don't have the luxury of tyre warmers and your tyres would cold shear. Couldn't the problem of high tyre wear be reduced by just fitting a harder compound?

To put it another way some guys in Streetstock and Postclassic with totally stuffed suspensions reacon their tyres last them a season why can't a Superbike rider get his to last for more than 20 laps?

I really dont believe Im answering this or ( frankly ) that youve asked it. Its got more than a little to do with horsepower and torque and the level you are riding at. Where have you been when WSB and MotoGp is televised? I really do hope this is not a perverse wind up.....

[gixerracer]

Would you like a volunteer to help you test that theory?

:whistle:

You may need to send me your bank account details 1st:buggerd:

[gixerracer]

So if you where given a Stock out of the box(crate) GSXR you would not be able to race against another stock GSXR? Admittedly you would not break any lap records but would the bike be dangerous?

Thats a very interesting question. Yes we could race them no worries but man it would cost more money than it does now because they would handle like shit and we would crash alot, I no that as a stock road bike they seem pretty grunty but trust me compared to one in race trim they are really very tame we could run stock suspension i guess if the motors were totally un tuned which would then require leaving the stock exhaust on which cost more than an after market to replace when you wreck etc etc. I have done many laps around manfeild on standard suspension running in 600s in the past and at a medium pace its ok but once you try and go quicker they just cant cope and were are talking 3-4 seconds of race pace they just get hot and go all mushy after only 3-4 laps so no we certainly couldnt race 160hp thousands on stock units it just wouldnt work.

[gixerracer]

I would have thought the tyre wear issue would be more noticable on the road where you don't have the luxury of tyre warmers and your tyres would cold shear. Couldn't the problem of high tyre wear be reduced by just fitting a harder compound?

To put it another way some guys in Streetstock and Postclassic with totally stuffed suspensions reacon their tyres last them a season why can't a Superbike rider get his to last for more than 20 laps?

Superbike tyres are only designed to be good for 20 laps thats why they go as fast as they do because they have lots of grip we can get tyres to last 60 laps if you want but the lap times would be shit the bikes would suck to ride what would even be to bloddy point of having a superbike if you cant get the best out of it after its a race and motor bike racing isnt cheap if you want to win? its what we chose to do insted of going to pub or smoking P its our own little addiction:headbang:
As for your comments about street stocks lasting a year this true as I raced one for a season but get reall youcant compare them or postclassic to a mdoern 200+hp superbike really can you?

[GSVR]

Thanks for the answers Robert and Craig. You have given me plenty to think about for a while.

Just on the subject of tyre wear it seems the major factor in how fast they wear is how much HP/Torque your trying to put down to the track. (stating the obvious)

What would be interesting would be to quantify the increased tyre wear for two identical Superbikes (same HP) ridden by the same rider with the same tyres. One bike has the state of the art race suspension the other has stock Mr OEM suspension.

Craigs comment about the stock shock going mushy after a few laps reminds me about what you said (Robert) about the crap suspension in V8 supercars. Imagine bike racers wrapping their shocks in ice before a race!

And Robert as for your comment in a previous post about the tyre bill increasing I do not believe this would be so as the rules state you can only use a certain number of tyres. All riders would have to go to a harder compound and adjust their riding to suit.

I remember when Rossi was winning on the 1000ccc MotoGP bikes he seemed to always be on harder compound tyres than most of other riders and when it came to the final stages of the race he was able to crank the pace up while others where struggling on shagged tyres.

And I'm not really trying to wind you up about suspension if Ray Clee was on here I'd probably debate as to why Superbikes are allowed any engine modification at all. Why can't the rules say stock engine no mods whatsoever? Would save alot in tyre wear right?

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for the answers Robert and Craig. You have given me plenty to think about for a while.

Just on the subject of tyre wear it seems the major factor in how fast they wear is how much HP/Torque your trying to put down to the track. (stating the obvious)

What would be interesting would be to quantify the increased tyre wear for two identical Superbikes (same HP) ridden by the same rider with the same tyres. One bike has the state of the art race suspension the other has stock Mr OEM suspension.

Craigs comment about the stock shock going mushy after a few laps reminds me about what you said (Robert) about the crap suspension in V8 supercars. Imagine bike racers wrapping their shocks in ice before a race!

And Robert as for your comment in a previous post about the tyre bill increasing I do not believe this would be so as the rules state you can only use a certain number of tyres. All riders would have to go to a harder compound and adjust their riding to suit.

I remember when Rossi was winning on the 1000ccc MotoGP bikes he seemed to always be on harder compound tyres than most of other riders and when it came to the final stages of the race he was able to crank the pace up while others where struggling on shagged tyres.

And I'm not really trying to wind you up about suspension if Ray Clee was on here I'd probably debate as to why Superbikes are allowed any engine modification at all. Why can't the rules say stock engine no mods whatsoever? Would save alot in tyre wear right?

Stock bikes at track days 600 and 1000cc with hard compound tyres are screwing their tyres. I think that more than answers the question. They have passable performance and passable life on the road, which is what they are primarily built for. Put them anywhere near a track and the limitations are evident straight away.
I for one am not interested in ''dumbing down'' the premier classes. That is stated from a technical and safety perspective.

[GSVR]

Stock bikes at track days 600 and 1000cc with hard compound tyres are screwing their tyres. I think that more than answers the question. They have passable performance and passable life on the road, which is what they are primarily built for. Put them anywhere near a track and the limitations are evident straight away.


Sorry just wanted to quote this.

[Tony.OK]

Stock bikes at track days 600 and 1000cc with hard compound tyres are screwing their tyres. I think that more than answers the question. They have passable performance and passable life on the road, which is what they are primarily built for. Put them anywhere near a track and the limitations are evident straight away.
I for one am not interested in ''dumbing down'' the premier classes. That is stated from a technical and safety perspective.


Sorry just wanted to quote this.

The stock rear in my bike couldn't handle the extra grip from a race tyre at all,after one session on the old track at Taupo the shock resevoir was so hot you couldn't touch it,and after a while it was just getting dangerous to be out there with a self destructing tyre,the pics show what was a brand new tyre at the start of the day.
Since putting the Ohlins on rear grains nicely and shock doesn't get much above warm.
Pic 1 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43883&d=1160767334)
Pic 2 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43884&d=1160767334)

[GSVR]

The stock rear in my bike couldn't handle the extra grip from a race tyre at all,after one session on the old track at Taupo the shock resevoir was so hot you couldn't touch it,and after a while it was just getting dangerous to be out there with a self destructing tyre,the pics show what was a brand new tyre at the start of the day.
Since putting the Ohlins on rear grains nicely and shock doesn't get much above warm.
Pic 1 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43883&d=1160767334)
Pic 2 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43884&d=1160767334)

Yeap I've seen tyres like that off Ohlins equipped bikes too.

The way we got around the problem was to go up to a harder compound. You can also get the temp level and wear of a tyre right by adjusting the tyre pressures. And also by by having the right spring in your shock and adjusting the rebound and damping. Of course the way the front is set up will effect the rear as well.

And also the way you roll on the gas.

When Taupo was new it dealt to tyres something chronic.

One thing is for sure when a tyre starts to cold shear like that it will only get worse.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeap I've seen tyres like that off Ohlins equipped bikes too.

The way we got around the problem was to go up to a harder compound. You can also get the temp level and wear of a tyre right by adjusting the tyre pressures. And also by by having the right spring in your shock and adjusting the rebound and damping. Of course the way the front is set up will effect the rear as well.

And also the way you roll on the gas.

When Taupo was new it dealt to tyres something chronic.

One thing is for sure when a tyre starts to cold shear like that it will only get worse.

Thats a little mischievous and frankly a little naive for you to say that because the reality is there are a lot of second hand Ohlins shocks ( and others ) out there that have been resold and have not been sprung and optimised for the new rider! Not to mention the ''one shock fits all mentality'' where Joe Bloggs will fit a shock that is totally unsuitable for the bike, it is sprung and damping calibrated for a completely different linkage system and therefore motion ratio. And if same happens at least there is a full facility available in this country to sort it out. But being the way many of us are there is often a reluctance to do things properly or to try and do so on ( for whatever arguable reasons ) is an unrealistically tight budget!

''Adjusting the rebound and damping'' is I guess you mean externally, that doesnt actually cut the mustard on many stock shocks because even with the comp adjuster wound all the way in the rear will still squat excessively and screw the tyre. Its about the internal shim stack calibration and the size of bypass bleed, whilst still trying to maintain a good pressure balance. But then if you instal more aggressive damping to afford some control more damping equals more heat buildup more quickly and therefore the shock goes off more quickly! Just changing springs to clean up the tyre also doesnt work consistently, Crudely, springs are about position, damping is about controlling change of position.

You are also confused about what cold shear is and shear that is occuring for other reasons.

Racers are all about wanting to be able to roll the throttle on sooner and running as soft a compound as they can get away with to both maximise grip and to get the tyre to just last long enough. Your suggestions are ( in effect )about making people go slower.

[GSVR]

The point I was trying to make is as well as not having a properly set up Ohlins shock there are many other factors that can cause a tyre to wear like that.

[Robert Taylor]

The point I was trying to make is as well as not having a properly set up Ohlins shock there are many other factors that can cause a tyre to wear like that.

I understand exactly what you were trying to say and responded accordingly, END.

[cowpoos]

The point I was trying to make is as well as not having a properly set up Ohlins shock there are many other factors that can cause a tyre to wear like that.

there are so many factors that cause so many issues...that robert doesn't have the time to write you a 1,000,000 word eassay that probally only just scratche's the surface on the probability of the situations that he has come accross in his career let alone what other tracks roads and surfaces around the world bring to light!

[GSVR]

there are so many factors that cause so many issues...that robert doesn't have the time to write you a 1,000,000 word eassay that probally only just scratche's the surface on the probability of the situations that he has come accross in his career let alone what other tracks roads and surfaces around the world bring to light!

But are Dunlops really better than Pirellis or Conti' or is it just the guy using them has better suspension or is perhaps a better rider on the day?

Or should that be Bridgestone vs Michelin

Like is it better to have average suspension and great tyres or average tyres and great suspension?

[Robert Taylor]

But are Dunlops really better than Pirellis or Conti' or is it just the guy using them has better suspension or is perhaps a better rider on the day?

Or should that be Bridgestone vs Michelin

Like is it better to have average suspension and great tyres or average tyres and great suspension?

What about great suspension, great tyres and great rider, isnt that where most racers strive to be at? At present the Dunlop N-Tecs seem to be a touch better but in real terms I dont think the Pirellis are too far off. Continental also make a good tyre and the guys are certainly providing excellent, KNOWLEDGABLE back up.

Tyres are a bit like suspension, its also very much about full and proper backup and on my radar screen there is only ( a self plug! ) one complete and comprehensive service available in NZ.

Weve seen ''dumbing down'' through our education system courtesy of the ''bitch from belsen'' I really hope this little gem of social engineering doesnt permeate its way into NZ road racing.

[GSVR]

What about great suspension, great tyres and great rider, isnt that where most racers strive to be at? At present the Dunlop N-Tecs seem to be a touch better but in real terms I dont think the Pirellis are too far off. Continental also make a good tyre and the guys are certainly providing excellent, KNOWLEDGABLE back up.

Tyres are a bit like suspension, its also very much about full and proper backup and on my radar screen there is only ( a self plug! ) one complete and comprehensive service available in NZ.

Weve seen ''dumbing down'' through our education system courtesy of the ''bitch from belsen'' I really hope this little gem of social engineering doesnt permeate its way into NZ road racing.

I really shouldn't reply to this with you slagging off my Aunty Hellen.

So I wonder whats Rossi's choice if he had one. Maybe the writing was on the wall for him when he couldn't match Stoner so tyres was a good excuse.
Theres alot to be said for a two bike raceteam where you can test stuff properly and compare changes to on machine against the other. And if a problem comes along if its happening to both bikes its alot easier to isolate. Bit like Americas Cup.

BTW you didn't answer the question but gave the answer I knew you would.

So your answer might have to be interpreted as "above average tyres and above average but not great suspension."

[Robert Taylor]

I really shouldn't reply to this with you slagging off my Aunty Hellen.

So I wonder whats Rossi's choice if he had one. Maybe the writing was on the wall for him when he couldn't match Stoner so tyres was a good excuse.
Theres alot to be said for a two bike raceteam where you can test stuff properly and compare changes to on machine against the other. And if a problem comes along if its happening to both bikes its alot easier to isolate. Bit like Americas Cup.

BTW you didn't answer the question but gave the answer I knew you would.

So your answer might have to be interpreted as "above average tyres and above average but not great suspension."

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

[svr]

Slow sat nite so I tread this thread for entertainment - thanks guys even better than watching pro wrestling!
Geez Gary you ask some frustrating questions - RT has incredible patience.
Two points:
1. I dont like seeing `safety' coupled with `grip' or ultimate performance because there is no simple correspondence - often the low grip motorcycle is safer to ride at it's performance limit (which is the job of the racer) than one with higher grip - its the feedback that matters.
2. with regards to buying suspension products locally, it's just another `commons tragedy' unfortunately, whereby the individual perceives personal advantage ($$ savings) and acts rationally (remote sourcing) to the real long-term cost of the collective interest (local resourcing i.e. RT, Gremlin).
We wouldnt be living in the age of global capitalism now would we?

[speedpro]

1. I dont like seeing `safety' coupled with `grip' or ultimate performance because there is no simple correspondence - often the low grip motorcycle is safer to ride at it's performance limit (which is the job of the racer) than one with higher grip - its the feedback that matters.
2. with regards to buying suspension products locally, it's just another `commons tragedy' unfortunately, whereby the individual perceives personal advantage ($$ savings) and acts rationally (remote sourcing) to the real long-term cost of the collective interest (local resourcing i.e. RT, Gremlin).
We wouldnt be living in the age of global capitalism now would we?

If this isn't a troll then you have missed some pretty basic motorcycling education.
1. Well obviously with less grip you will be going slower at the limit and as we all know - "speed kills", I saw it on TV. According to you, riding a bike with a 20yr old Cheng Shin ribbed front would be safer than with say a new soft Pirelli. I'm willing to sacrifice my bucket to see "YOU" test that one. I recall that the only feedback from crap tyres was regular and instant loss of traction. Compared to say TT100GP2s which would slide heaps before you landed on your head.
2. Forget the collective interest for a moment. What about the actual "cost-of-ownership", ie what it costs to purchase and all the other costs to get it where it actually does the job. Purchasing from a local source the majority of costs are included. Such things as optimising settings and components and the invaluable ability to make a more or less local call for a bit of one-on-one advice.

I agree on the collective interest bit as well though. I always buy local - clothes, boots, John Bull for instance.

[Pussy]

One huge advantage of Ohlins over Traxxion.... RT gave me a different set of springs to try in the 750 yesterday, it took me about 15 minutes maximum to change them this arvo, VERY easy job with the Ohlins cartridges

[svr]

If this isn't a troll then you have missed some pretty basic motorcycling education.
1. According to you, riding a bike with a 20yr old Cheng Shin ribbed front would be safer than with say a new soft Pirelli.

No that's actually the opposite of the logical point I tried to make i.e that you simply cannot equate grip with safety - a (decent) racer is always going to ride at the limit of available grip, whether that's a `knife-edge' or a comfortable situation is the safety issue - it only matters how fast you're going if you crash.
When SBK introduced pirellis the riders could comfortably smoke both tyres(?) in the corners and high sides all but disappeared (even before traction control) because they now had low grip / high feedback compared to previous higher grip / lower feedback situation of Michelin.

And crashing on 20yr ribbed tyres has nothing to do with physics - Its just God punishing you for taking the piss.

[pritch]

- Its just God punishing you for taking the piss.

Now there's a gem. Have bling :clap:

[Robert Taylor]

One huge advantage of Ohlins over traxxion.... RT gave me a different set of springs to try in the 750 yesterday, it took me about 15 minutes maximum to change them this arvo, VERY easy job with the Ohlins cartriges

In a race track situtaion the ability to make changes very quickly is paramount. Ohlins cartridges have their own top cap which together with the holding adaptor for the spring is designed to facilitate such quick changes.
We have managed several times to change springs in under 5 minutes.
Different tracks can require different springs because each and every track places its own peculiar dynamics on the bike.
Cartridges that still retain the standard top cap are frankly as much of a pain in the butt as with the oem cartridges. What this all too often means is it can be so intimidating to do so ( and time inhibitive ) the rider and crew will just not bother and then race on springs that are not quite right.
The little bit extra you pay for Ohlins pays dividends in this and other respects

[Shaun]

In a race track situtaion the ability to make changes very quickly is paramount. Ohlins cartridges have their own top cap which together with the holding adaptor for the spring is designed to facilitate such quick changes.
We have managed several times to change springs in under 5 minutes.
Different tracks can require different springs because each and every track places its own peculiar dynamics on the bike.
Cartridges that still retain the standard top cap are frankly as much of a pain in the butt as with the oem cartridges. What this all too often means is it can be so intimidating to do so ( and time inhibitive ) the rider and crew will just not bother and then race on springs that are not quite right.
The little bit extra you pay for Ohlins pays dividends in this and other respects


Of Course None of this rellivent to ROAD Riders, Racers Only

[Robert Taylor]

Of Course None of this rellivent to ROAD Riders, Racers Only

I disagree, in as much as its still intimidating, time consuming and more costly in labour to change fork springs with the oem system and those that mimic it.

[Tony.OK]

Showa's aren't too bad,I can get the top off and springs out in about 10 min,once you know how its not too hard.

[Robert Taylor]

Showa's aren't too bad,I can get the top off and springs out in about 10 min,once you know how its not too hard.

Im actually talking 5 minutes for the whole job, removal, instal and set. That is a BIG difference in time. Ohlins looked at the whole top cap thing, if you get the chance to see how its actually done with their racing cartridges you will be more than impressed.

[k14]

Can you retro fit ohlins caps to oem forks? Would be very handy on the RS. Takes at least 30 mins to change the springs on that. Quite a monotous process and something I tend to shy away from at the track. Being able to do it in 5 mins with (buy the sounds) one or two spanners sounds very appetising.

[Robert Taylor]

Can you retro fit ohlins caps to oem forks? Would be very handy on the RS. Takes at least 30 mins to change the springs on that. Quite a monotous process and something I tend to shy away from at the track. Being able to do it in 5 mins with (buy the sounds) one or two spanners sounds very appetising.

Youve concurred with excatly what I was eluding to with two key points 1) monotonous process ( actually frustrating ) and 2) ''tend to shy away from at the track'' ...which means very often the spring rate you have raced on might not actually be ideal.

With respect to fitting an Ohlins top cap its also about the boss on top of the main cartridge rod. Not impossible but it would be a nasty job. The specific Ohlins 125cc road race forks have this quick change system, these forks are available at $5999 incl. Before there are howls about the price from certain quarters pricing new RS125 ones would be an interesting exercise.

One other thing that I failed to previously mention is that you absolutely do not have to remove the forks to change the springs or to use a cumbersome and fiddly to use spring changer manipulated down the length of the fork leg.

Products designed by engineers rather than accountants normally are nicer to work with! Those that have actually changed springs in Ohlins racing cartridges or have closely viewed the whole exercise will know exactly what I am talking about. If during the Nationals we were still using products that still employ the standard oem top caps we would have been frustrated to hell about it. The real world value of those caps cannot be underestimated.

[Pussy]

Just to clarify.... 15 minutes total to change the springs, from the bike sitting on it's wheels with one set of springs installed, to ready to ride with the other set installed, and that included letting any oil on the springs coming out being allowed to drain into the legs

[k14]

Youve concurred with excatly what I was eluding to with two key points 1) monotonous process ( actually frustrating ) and 2) ''tend to shy away from at the track'' ...which means very often the spring rate you have raced on might not actually be ideal.

With respect to fitting an Ohlins top cap its also about the boss on top of the main cartridge rod. Not impossible but it would be a nasty job. The specific Ohlins 125cc road race forks have this quick change system, these forks are available at $5999 incl. Before there are howls about the price from certain quarters pricing new RS125 ones would be an interesting exercise.

One other thing that I failed to previously mention is that you absolutely do not have to remove the forks to change the springs or to use a cumbersome and fiddly to use spring changer manipulated down the length of the fork leg.

Products designed by engineers rather than accountants normally are nicer to work with! Those that have actually changed springs in Ohlins racing cartridges or have closely viewed the whole exercise will know exactly what I am talking about. If during the Nationals we were still using products that still employ the standard oem top caps we would have been frustrated to hell about it. The real world value of those caps cannot be underestimated.
Hmm, $6k. I'll get back to you on that one...

Seeing as I'm ususally doing it by myself I'll normally take the front wheel out. Then i need to find something to hold each fork leg in the compressed position to get some of it protruding out the top. Then its the hard bit of compressing the spring (usually by hand) enough to slide the 17mm spanner underneath the cap to loosen it. Then you slip off and dent the tank or graze your knuckles. Hmm, 6 grand you say....

P.S. Brand new set of oem forks go for roughly $2k.

[slowpoke]

One thing is for sure when a tyre starts to cold shear like that it will only get worse.

Hmmmmm, I dunno if I should get involved in this or not......

.....but I fitted a nearly new slick to the rear of my R1 for the Rider Instruction Day at Toe-paw. As the day went on and my pace increased, my rear tyre was well on the way to emulating Tony's pic's, to the point where I was seriously worried it wasn't going to last for Sunday's race day.

The ol' girl is fitted with an Ohlins rear shock but as became evident when Robert cast his expert eye over it, and the bike history, the thing was well overdue for a freshen up. Even so once Robert had set it up as best he could (my apologies Robert, for the compromises you as an obvious perfectionist had to make) the bike felt much more settled and the tyre slowly but surely looked better as the weekend wore on.

So, given the cost of tyres I have absolutely no doubt that the cost of freshening up the suspenders or fitting quality suspension will well and truly be recouped... even for a Clubman's level racer like myself.

[GSVR]

Yep I should refrain from using quotes from other racers. Seriously Slowpoke I'm not even sure what size or compound tyre to use anymore. Manufacturers guidelines aren't all they are cracked up to be.

Dunlop recommends 23 psi in some of their slicks.

[ArcherWC]

Yep I should refrain from using quotes from other racers. Seriously Slowpoke I'm not even sure what size or compound tyre to use anymore. Manufacturers guidelines aren't all they are cracked up to be.

Dunlop recommends 23 psi in some of their slicks.
actually its 22psi hot off the warmers, and its only the ntech rears

[GSVR]

actually its 22psi hot off the warmers, and its only the ntech rears


Are you sure its 22 and not 22.5 because the page I'm reading says 21cold and 23 hot.

I don't want to start a war over 1 psi.

pt