NZ Herald article - Born agains...

[madbikeboy]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10501290

KatMan's going to love this one... :)

[GaZBur]

I find that article condescending and offensive -
"...Mr Kirk said most older people returning to the transport mode of their youth generally retained the physical skills needed to ride motorcycles.
But he said ageing reflexes meant many were mentally ill-equipped to handle the higher-performance machines now available, and needed basic education tips on how to get out of trouble, such as to ease their brakes into a swerve to avoid a head-on crash."

What bullshit!!! I am 50 this year and willing to bet my reactions are no worse than most 20somethings! I ride track days and race and see a bunch of older riders doing very well and nothing wrong with thier reactions.

The real problem with born again riders is the ones who did all their youth riding on an XL175 then buy a sportsbike coz they can afford it now. They werent high performance riders in thier youth so they shouldnt think they have magically developed high performace riding skills over the years of not riding at all!

Its like saying young riders dont have the mental maturity to ride - hang on - I rave read articles that are actually saying that too! OK so only people betwee the ages of 25 and 35 should be allowed to ride sports bikes then.

[Tank]

I find that article condescending and offensive -


What bullshit!!! I am 50 this year and willing to bet my reactions are no worse than most 20somethings!

yeah - prove it - reply to this post real quick ...... come on 'ol man (p/t)

[GaZBur]

yeah - prove it - reply to this post real quick ...... come on 'ol man (p/t)
Bugger 3 mins reaction time - so not so great - but i did make a coffee and go to the toilet between times and you dont usually do that on the road.

[Tank]

Bugger 3 mins reaction time - so not so great - but i did make a coffee and go to the toilet between times and you dont usually do that on the road.

Rather impressive (assuming that the coffee wasnt instant).

I think you have proved worthy and should be allowed on the road for another year.;)

[vifferman]

The problem is old riders have small nuts.

[ManDownUnder]

Actually I agree with it.

I was off a bike for 8 years, got on the RF and the power just blew me away. I'm naturally conservative so took it easy for qwuite a while (4 months or 6 months?) deliverately keeping the revs below 5,000 the whole time.

When I was ready I did a track day, that dropped me "back in the groove" and I've been improvng ever since.

Take someone out of a car for 8 years then let them loose in a V8. The mnature view on the world certainly helps moderate the risk but if you're not familiar with the various critical performance characteristics of the machine you're in charge of... you're screwed.

[98tls]

"The number of injuries has risen 80%" sounds about the same figure for new dairy farms.

[Edbear]

...The real problem with born again riders is the ones who did all their youth riding on an XL175 then buy a sportsbike coz they can afford it now. They werent high performance riders in thier youth so they shouldnt think they have magically developed high performace riding skills over the years of not riding at all!.

I think you'll find that that was the main point of the article, us old fullas who rode T500's putting out a whopping 45hp, go and buy bikes putting out another 100 or so and get caught out badly!

I "returned" in '03 with a GSX-F600 and at 80hp had twice the power of the old "T", and that nearly got me in trouble the first time I "played" with an Audi Quattro over the Waiwera hill! The fact that the brakes and handling and tyres were lightyears ahead of the T as well, saved my bacon, along with reflexes and 35 years experience driving all manner of vehicles.

Yes, I reckon my reflexes and reactions are at least as good as ever, probably better due to experience enabling me to predict situations and drive/ride defensively, but the incident with the Audi, gave me pause for concern and I spent some time getting used to the acceleration, brakes and handling before pushing the envelope again...

[90s]

I basically agree with the article, and in other threads the most recent 1980-1996 stats clearly bear out that it is older riders who are crashing more. The 80% increase is a very misleading figure mind.

However, there are several problems with the article. The first is that the crucial reflexes aren't pysical but mental. Training and familiarity mean that in an emergency you "do the right thing" by reflex, and that is what is missing when a "born again" overcooks it or gets out of hand.

I think the article usefully highlights the stupidity of scimping on prevention and education but paying up the cleanup bills. And most older riders returning to bikes after a long gap - and I was one until a few years ago - actually want some type of refresher. I did RRRS eventually, and think it should be publically funded and widely available.

The second thing that the article misses is the controversial role of groupriding - a fairly new type of acitvity - in the increasing accidents of older riders. This isn't a skills problem, its a social thing.

[90s]

I "returned" in '03 with a GSX-F600 and at 80hp had twice the power of the old "T", and that nearly got me in trouble the first time I "played" with an Audi Quattro over the Waiwera hill! The fact that the brakes ... were lightyears ahead of the T as well, saved my bacon, along with reflexes and 35 years experience driving all manner of vehicles.

As a GSX600F rider I have to say "holy moly" if your old T had worse brakes than the F! :pinch:

(no, I've riden drum-braked bikes and the FJ is at least a little better than them ... )

[sinfull]

Bugger 3 mins reaction time - so not so great - but i did make a coffee and go to the toilet between times and you dont usually do that on the road.

Rushes back into the room still shaking it !!

14 yr break for this old coote and thats not even a pillion ride, jumped on the triple (not as quick as some bikes ya might say) but after only ever riding cruisers, with trail bikes in my teens as well, the grump was enough to scare this old fella ! But i was also old enough (wont say wise) to know to gradually scare myself more and more rather than give it its all in the first weeks !
Have to love the track days !
Ok might even go back and read that artical now lol

[Ixion]

I think you'll find that that was the main point of the article, us old fullas who rode T500's putting out a whopping 45hp, go and buy bikes putting out another 100 or so and get caught out badly!

.

No, the problem is not with those who seriously rode performance bikes years ago. A T500 or T120 might not have had the horsepower of todays machines, but they were still fast enough to get the rider into serious trouble. F'instance , according to manufacturers figures the 'new' Bonniville is actually slower than the 'old' one. Riders who rode fast machinery back in the day and survived will have learned the skills that are needed for modern machines (long absence may have dulled the skills and taken the edge of alertness - I find that happens even if I don't ride for a week. But that will come back quickly)

The real problem is the guy who rode a CB125 or suchlike to University back in the day. And because there was no GDLS then, he has a full licence. And decides he wants a bike . Odds are it'll be a Harley or similar. And although they are not fast they are a lot faster then his CB125. And commuting to University he never really learned much in the way of riding and survival skills anyway. (If he does go for a sprotsbike , it's even worse of course).

But that's not really a function of being 'born again', it's simply a function of an inherited defect in the licencing system. He shouldn't really have a full class 6. Helen Clark will have a full class 6 (she rode a step through at uni) , but would hardly be likely to be safe on a big bike

[BIGBOSSMAN]

In my case, the article is complete bullshit. I binned my last bike in '86 (RG500), and last year bought a ZX10R. No problems whatsoever, I took my time getting used to the power/handling etc and just love the thing to bits.
Could do with a bit more power though...:innocent:

[sinfull]

Could do with a bit more power though...:innocent:

What he said !!!

[Hitcher]

It's taken me three hours to react to this. What was it again that I was reacting to?

It appears to me that Police and others have been conned into believing in generalised stereotypes and then making events conform with those. Transit are the same.

"Motorcycles are dangerous and are increasingly being ridden by Old Farts who have no idea what they're doing on them." Regretably there are enough incidents to keep reinforcing that stereotype. Even more regretably, the OFWHNIWTDOT can be found in motorcycle "lobby" groups like BRONZ and Uselyss.

Changing public perceptions on this matter and, by abstraction, the views of "opinion formers" amounts to pushing very sloppy shit up a steep and rocky hill with a pitchfork. Any progress is deleteriously impaired by the next forty-something who graunches their sexed-up Aprilia Superscrotum and themselves on the Takas or Coro Loop.

[Katman]

And a point that seems to have been missed is that there's a whooooole lot more vehicles on the roads these days. It requires a higher level of concentration to ensure your safety on the road today than it did 30 years ago.

[vifferman]

And a point that seems to have been missed is that there's a whooooole lot more vehicles on the roads these days. It requires a higher level of concentration to ensure your safety on the road today than it did 30 years ago.
And is it just me, or is the general standard of driving much worse than 30 years ago? People just seem to be so much more casual about it, maybe because cars are so easy to drive now?

[oldrider]

This borne again labelling crap pisses me off, I have been riding bikes almost continually for 54 years, so should I have to wear a little flag or something!

Every time I buy some new shiny riding apparel, some bright cunt makes a comment as if I am having a mid life (late life now) crisis or something!

I fell off the other day and claimed ACC, the first time ever off a bike and get a barrage of shit about how dangerous bikes are and that old people and bikes don't mix etc.

There are more old cunts around here that have ACC claims in for falling off their lounge room chairs FFS and they have the affront to say "bikes" are dangerous!

This sort of shit really pisses me off! :mad: Angry, angry, John.

[Ixion]

And is it just me, or is the general standard of driving much worse than 30 years ago? People just seem to be so much more casual about it, maybe because cars are so easy to drive now?

No, driving is no worse (though the 'worse' is a different worse). But what has happened is that the incompetents who 30 years ago never ventured outside to 30mph areas , because the open road was too scarey (and cars then were physically hard to drive at speed), now happily wander out and head off to here there and everywhere. Driving just as they do on the way to the supermarket, just a little faster. The 'casual' is right though, Mabel who used to be terrified of the open road now finds it so easy to drive her automatic power steer power brake abs auto brain car that she thinks there is nothing needed other than to point vaguely in the direction she wants to go.

Abolish power everything and auto anything I say,that'll send the bunnies back to their holes. Oh, and get rid of electric starters. Worst thing that ever happened for the road toll.

[Swoop]

I think we need an age limit on politicians.
The "old ones" are crap.



(p/t or not p/t???)

[Katman]

This borne again labelling crap pisses me off, I have been riding bikes almost continually for 54 years, so should I have to wear a little flag or something!



You've missed the point that the article isn't directed at those who have been riding continually for 54 years.

[Pwalo]

It just proves that most motorcyclist are older than they used to be.

I must say that the 80% rise in injuries is interesting. Has there been a change in the criteria for assessing injury types? You know, 'I strained my back moving the bike around the car park', sort of thing. (That does get easier the older you get!)

I guess including off road, farm, and quad stats makes a slight difference as well, especially as these aren't going to be included in the registration numbers that were quoted.

I think that group rides may be a factor in the number of crashes. There seems to be a bit of anecdotal evidence on this site.

The difference in performance of modern machines is an obvious point, but I would suggest that my SV is a lot easier to ride than my old RD400 (and not a lot faster). Sure going from a CB125 to a ZX10 is a big step, but that is probably an extreme example. I suspect most returning riders start off a little more modestly.

[Horse]

The Herald article is one guy sending out a press release... but he understands that sending out a release with relatively strongly-worded opinions, and getting it out while the original story it relates to is still "fresh" means that the paper is more likely to write an article from it.

Where was the press release over the weekend from BRONZ? How about the cheese-cutter campaign - perfect time to try and get some of that ADD news attention on your issue for 30sec. But reaction times have to be instant for this kind of thing.

[sinfull]

I must say that the 80% rise in injuries is interesting. Has there been a change in the criteria for assessing injury types? You know, 'I strained my back moving the bike around the car park', sort of thing. (That does get easier the older you get!)

.

Someone mentioned in another thread that injuries to moped/ scooter riders are included in that 80% rise ! Considering you dont even need a bike licence to ride the things , it strikes me as being a little missleading

[avgas]

An interesting article about a guy loosing money cos the government wont buy his stuff.
Man we are a country of whiners.

[GaZBur]

An interesting article about a guy loosing money cos the government wont buy his stuff.
Man we are a country of whiners.


OOOhhhh!!!! Very good point.

The MegaRider.com site is the site of the New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants (NZMSC). The NZMSC is a non-profit body working on motorcycle safety and riding skills promotion in New Zealand and internationally via the Internet.

They are a non profit organisation - hmmm that sells stuff and look "... pay by credit card" you can even pay by credit card - now I will feel safer on the road!!!!

EDIT: I was told at the OMCC meeting last night there is still one more RIDE RIGHT course being run in Dunedin this year - a better option by the look of it.

[Edbear]

As a GSX600F rider I have to say "holy moly" if your old T had worse brakes than the F! :pinch:

(no, I've riden drum-braked bikes and the FJ is at least a little better than them ... )


Actually, after a change of fluid and a good bleeding, the brakes were pretty good, I thought. Especially after forgetting about the T intersection coming out of Mangawhai Heads towards Waipu, I nearly did a stoppie!

Check your pads and change the fluid, they should come good. The old T500 brakes never gave me any particular problems, but then I rode it within its limits and never had to do many panic stops...

[Ixion]

I think his figures are crap. And probably include mopeds in the injury rates but not the rego figures.

Does anyone have access to actual "numbers of mopeds and motorcycles registered" figures for 2001 to 2005. Bloody LTSA charge $49 for the figures FOR EACH YEAR . Mercenary bastards

But I do know that toal bike+mopeds went from 47999 in 2005 to 65658 in 2007. So that's more than 36% increase in those years alone. But I can't find reliable injury/fatality rates fuigures.

You would think something like that , reliable numbers would be easy to find. But they seem to be actively hidden

[vifferman]

IBloody LTSA charge $49 for the figures FOR EACH YEAR . Mercenary bastards

You would think something like that , reliable numbers would be easy to find. But they seem to be actively hidden
It's not right, is it?
They use taxpayers' money to gather information, yet that info is not available. Perversely, a lot of information such as mapping info seems to be readily available to companies to then profit from by on-selling it to us.
I've been told that any gubmint info is readily available to Mrkn citizens, but our Gubmint seems a whole lot more secretive. It's either the "you're too stupid to have access to this info; eave it to us - we know best!" thing, or just deliberate obfuscation to make sure we don't find out what's really going on.

[kermit63]

I'm one of the XR200 at uni, Triumph Daytona at 45 - cos I liked sports bikes and could afford one. I did a riding course before I got the Triumph and use it mostly for commuting. I got told when i was 18 by a bike salesman that "none of these bikes have the ability to knock themselves off there own side stand - it's all between your ears and in your right wrist". Good advice then and it still applies today. I'm learning more each time I ride and am riding within my limits. I'll never be Valentino Rossi, but love the sensation of riding a bike on a windnig road - even the Ngaio Gorge at 60ks is fun.

I think the rule changes are generally good - particularly basing bike size on Kwh per 100cc's and was pleased to be advised that in fact I am the biggest part of the problem - certainly focused the attention.

Cheers.

[scumdog]

Abolish power everything and auto anything I say,that'll send the bunnies back to their holes. Oh, and get rid of electric starters. Worst thing that ever happened for the road toll.

I duuno - at least an auto kicks down if the ever decide to pass another car.

With 5-speeds they just let it pink and labour it's way sloowwwly past the other car still in 5th gear.

The big difference these days to 30 years ago is EVERYBODY in the family has a car, not just dad and sometimes Mum as well, even spotty oiks still at school have a car, I would like to see the comparitive figures of car per 10,000 people from 1977 to 2007.

Why have so many people got a car? 'cos jap imports have made them cheap-as-chips - and hence also nobody looks after their car, it's just a 'thing' like a fridge or microwave, it's value plummets as soon as it changes hands unlike when cars were hard to get and would hold their value and were consequently pampered a bit..

[Ixion]

OK. I managed to get half the figures, and as suspected the article is fudging

Motorcycle deaths/injuries 2001 669/35 20071234/39

The 2007 figures are not final , it takes time for the police to complete the crash data. Deaths are actually to Feb 2008. (cos that's they way they present the numbers. Don't ask me why). So, injuries went up by 84%, yes. But fatalities only went up by 11%. Much less than even their claimed rate of vehicle growth.

Which I am sure is wrong.

Those death and injury figures explictly DO include mopeds. Any two or three wheeled vehicle

But I'd bet a chocolate fish that the registration figures are for motorcycles only. Which would fit with the increase in injuries over fatalities - it's all the scooter riders being knocked off and getting road rash

Moreover:

The "old men falling off their bikes" is total cobblers.

Injury and death rates for 2006

Under 50 811/40 Over 50 141/5
Under 55 869/42 Over 55 68/3

Ditto for 2007 (same comment as above re different periods. And they only give it in 10 year chunks

Under 55 1103/40 Over 55 110/4

So, 10 times as many youngsters as old farts. So there. Of course if Oldrider keeps falling off, this years figures may be another matter.



If I can find the rego figures I'll write to the Harold and debunk him

[kermit63]

not old till I'm 50 eh.....cool. I must have mistaken middle age for old age. I could be getting towards experienced by then.

[Ocean1]

not old till I'm 50 eh.....cool. I must have mistaken middle age for old age. I could be getting towards experienced by then.

Purely subjective dude.

Middle age = *10yrs older than oneself*

Old = *>10yrs older than oneself*

[GaZBur]

not old till I'm 50 eh.....cool. I must have mistaken middle age for old age. I could be getting towards experienced by then.
Anyone who calls me old at the end of this year better be ready for a slapping! 50 is not old - I will just be a very experienced teenager!!!!

[Ixion]

not old till I'm 50 eh.....cool. I must have mistaken middle age for old age. I could be getting towards experienced by then.

I thought I was being conservative. Based on MY definition of old, we have a near perfect record (until Oldrider went and buggered it up!)

[vifferman]

Anyone who calls me old at the end of this year better be ready for a slapping!
What about if someone calls you old now?
Anyway - what happens at the end of the year? Does your warranty run out then?

[jimmy 2006]

:gob: lol !
The problem is old riders have small nuts.

[Ixion]

What about if someone calls you old now?
Anyway - what happens at the end of the year? Does your warranty run out then?

No, the lease on his body expires and he has to turn it in.

[mstriumph]

The problem is old riders have small nuts. and some of us don't have any nuts at all ...................... :innocent:

[Usarka]

......needed basic education tips on how to get out of trouble, such as to ease their brakes into a swerve to avoid a head-on crash.

hes right thats the first thing i was taught when learning to ride.

make sure you ease your brakes into a swerve to avoid a head on crash.

[90s]

Which would fit with the increase in injuries over fatalities - it's all the scooter riders being knocked off and getting road rash ... The "old men falling off their bikes" is total cobblers.


No I don't agree completey. If you look at the info I posted earlier on crash data 1980-1996:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1470790&postcount=105
(edited version below)


...
As for the age this is interesting - esp. bearing in mind the overall reduction in motorcyle deaths (makes the above even more relevant). Please see tables "motorcycle deaths and injuries by age group" and esp. "motorcyclsts killed and injured by selected age groups":
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf
You will note the trends esp in the 2nd table for the deaths in the group 2-24 yrs vs. the groups 30-39 and 40 and over.
Examining:
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/section4-motorcycles-2006.pdf
also shows the reducing number of deaths - against the general perception of this thread - to about 1/3 of 1980 levels in toto (see figure 19 and also table "deaths and injuries of motorcycle riders and pillion passengers 1980-2006", source: http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf)
and as a percentage of overall road deaths down from 20% to 6-7% 'only', although the first source comparable but slightly different figs.)
Fig 20 "percentage of motorcyle casualties by age and sex" conflates injuries and deaths so gives a different view, but the 'hump' of riders between 30-54 is clear. ...

[mstriumph]

Actually I agree with it............

in a sorta oblique way, so do i ...... but then, i believe that anyone who hasn't ridden [or driven, for cages] for a period of, say 4 years, should have to take a refresher course before being let back on the road

how to accomplish that
difficult but not impossible

[kermit63]

As we are on the topic of rider experience, I had an interesting new inexperienced rider experience yesterday morning. I was riding down the Ngaio Gorge at 5:45am in the rain (1) and the dark (2) - that's 2 new experiences. I was leaning my way round a left hand bend when I came across a small rock slide. Because it was wet and dark, I was going slowly, but I also didn't get to see the rock slide until I was virtually on top of it. I knew that the mud and rocks were going to be a problem, so I didn't grab the brakes, stood the bike up straight and then wham - hit the rocks. The jolt was enough to throw the bike to the right and onto the wrong side of the road. Fortunately, there was nobody coming the other way, so I'm able to write about it today. It did give me a hell of a fright tho.

Is this just one of those "shit happens - you never know what life's gonna thro at you moments", or what should I have done differently to avoid going onto the wrong side of the road and into what could have been a very sticky situation.

Cheers.

[Horse]

With 5-speeds they just let it pink and labour it's way sloowwwly past the other car still in 5th gear.

Yep.... and what's the other reason? :Pokey:

[oldrider]

OK. I managed to get half the figures, and as suspected the article is fudging

Motorcycle deaths/injuries 2001 669/35 20071234/39

The 2007 figures are not final , it takes time for the police to complete the crash data. Deaths are actually to Feb 2008. (cos that's they way they present the numbers. Don't ask me why). So, injuries went up by 84%, yes. But fatalities only went up by 11%. Much less than even their claimed rate of vehicle growth.

Which I am sure is wrong.

Those death and injury figures explictly DO include mopeds. Any two or three wheeled vehicle

But I'd bet a chocolate fish that the registration figures are for motorcycles only. Which would fit with the increase in injuries over fatalities - it's all the scooter riders being knocked off and getting road rash

Moreover:

The "old men falling off their bikes" is total cobblers.

Injury and death rates for 2006

Under 50 811/40 Over 50 141/5
Under 55 869/42 Over 55 68/3

Ditto for 2007 (same comment as above re different periods. And they only give it in 10 year chunks

Under 55 1103/40 Over 55 110/4

So, 10 times as many youngsters as old farts. So there. Of course if Oldrider keeps falling off, this years figures may be another matter.



If I can find the rego figures I'll write to the Harold and debunk him


I thought I was being conservative. Based on MY definition of old, we have a near perfect record (until Oldrider went and buggered it up!)

(lol) Guess I asked for that, fair enough! I shall try to keep upright from now on!

Don't want to stuff up our statistcs! :whistle: Cheers John.

[gunnyrob]

And a point that seems to have been missed is that there's a whooooole lot more vehicles on the roads these days. It requires a higher level of concentration to ensure your safety on the road today than it did 30 years ago.


BULLSHIT.:mad:

I returned to riding last year after a 15 year break. Throughout that time I was obviously driving a car.

My bike now (BMW R1200GS) is a shitload safer than the bike I had (GPX750R) as it has ABS, Antidive, better brakes and better handling.

My new riding gear is weather proof and has armour.

Roads are in much better condition than back then, and the amount of drunk drivers has significantly reduced.

So long as you return to riding in a sane manner and don't go stupid, it's perfectly o.k.

I attended a BRONZ meeting last month & the guys & girls there are making waves amongst the feckwits that want to introduce more cheese cutters and reduce bike parks in town. DON'T SAY BAD STUFF ABOUT THEM, THEY ARE FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT.

I have used my previous experience to help out with some of the 250cc rides and riders.

I welcome all returning riders. So what if we are re-discovering our youth and having fun. Isn't that why we all ride????

[Motu]

I'm certainly not a born again,but I'd love to have an excess of income to afford the flash bikes people of my age tend to ride.But I did hit a bump at the born again age.I spent 10 years living on Waiheke Island,a bit restrictive as far as long distance riding is concerned.But I wasn't sitting around twiddling my thumbs - I was doing a lot of off road riding,racing bikes on the dirt track and blasting around the gravel roads,and riding to work every day.But when I shifted back to the real world it took some time to get my riding up to speed....I was really nervous in the city,and open road riding was a challenge too,the speeds were higher than I'd done for years,and distances to the horizon much greater.There was certainly nothing wrong with my abilities as a rider,or my reflexes...but I was very conscious of the fact that I wasn't up to speed in the modern world.

[SPman]

The real problem is the guy who rode a CB125 or suchlike to University back in the day. And because there was no GDLS then, he has a full licence. And decides he wants a bike . Odds are it'll be a Harley or similar.
Or, he'll join Ulysses and buy a Blackbird......



And commuting to University he never really learned much in the way of riding and survival skills anyway. .Bugger off - the number of times I had to take violent evasive action from motorists determined to kill me, espec in Victoria St, for some strange reason, in 1970-71, gave me a raft of skills.
Mind you a T250 had a bit more go than a CB125......

[nonferrous]

ABS, Antidive, better brakes and better handling won't stop unconscious cage drivers taking you out - good luck out there

[Skyryder]

An interesting article about a guy loosing money cos the government wont buy his stuff.
Man we are a country of whiners.

Yep that's the message I got. You can have all the safety programmes in the world but some guys will never get it. It's not an age thing it's an attitude and the wrong attitude is the same at 65+ as it is a twenty.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

(lol) Guess I asked for that, fair enough! I shall try to keep upright from now on!
:whistle: Cheers John.

Yep 'upright' is not what it use to be.:spanking::buggerd:


Skyryder

[rustys]

[QUOTE=Skyryder;1500497] You can have all the safety programmes in the world but some guys will never get it. It's not an age thing it's an attitude and the wrong attitude is the same at 65+ as it is a twenty.

Think "Kirky" is loseing the plot i had dealings with him in the 90s, agree that the old bones take a bit longer to heal, in the old age department, but thats life.

Shit i'am 61, i ride a 2006 YZF R6 on the road and track days, and will eventually race it one day, i also have been raceing for the last 5 years and will continue till i'am blind. As Skyryder says its all an attitude thing.

"Kirky" would be better off organising some descent "rider training" schools, and put out some of his books again on "Rider skills" etc like he used to, so some of these newer (older) people can understand motorcycle handling and skills. Sure there are a hell of a lot of people getting back into the motorcycle scene, just walk into the shop buy one and off we go, where's the training schools.
I have to agree that the bike's off today are much easier to ride, but hell you can get into a lot of trouble with them to.

Just another "old Fart" saying his piece.

[James Deuce]

Hey look! Invincible non-aging bikers!

Good luck with that fellas.

[DonaldH]

Hey look! Invincible non-aging bikers!

Good luck with that fellas.

Meow.... Some of us can remember when folk respected their elders!

[Bonez]

Hey look! Invincible non-aging bikers!

Good luck with that fellas.Aww, c'mon Jim there's at least one in real life.

[James Deuce]

Meow.... Some of us can remember when folk respected their elders!
I'm 42. I've broken my back & neck. MY physical stamina and reaction times are estimated at 20 years physically older than I am, and I can tell you that 60+ year olds are definitely slower than 40 years olds as 40 year olds are to 20 year olds. Aging isn't a bad thing, or something to get angry about. You can do nothing about it, apart from decent diet and exercise which can prolong your physical well being and mobility. Shit wears out though, including neurons and ganglia, as well as muscle atrophy, joint wear & tear, skin elasticity, blah blah.

The age appropriate chart they measure your reactions against has different categories to cover a broad range responses for each age group. It's just life. You Baby Boomers AREN'T going to live forever no matter what they said in that 1955 Popular Mechanics.

[James Deuce]

Aww, c'mon Jim there's at least one in real life.
Ogri isn't real, fella.

[scumdog]

I'm 42. I've broken my back & neck. MY physical stamina and reaction times are estimated at 20 years physically older than I am, and I can tell you that 60+ year olds are definitely slower than 40 years olds as 40 year olds are to 20 year olds. Aging isn't a bad thing, or something to get angry about. You can do nothing about it, apart from decent diet and exercise which can prolong your physical well being and mobility. Shit wears out though, including neurons and ganglia, as well as muscle atrophy, joint wear & tear, skin elasticity, blah blah.

The age appropriate chart they measure your reactions against has different categories to cover a broad range responses for each age group. It's just life. You Baby Boomers AREN'T going to live forever no matter what they said in that 1955 Popular Mechanics.

Now THERE'S some info to cheer me up - thanks Jim!!

[James Deuce]

Any time. :niceone:

I still don't have my flying car. It's 2008. They PROMISED.

[DonaldH]

I'm 42. I've broken my back & neck. MY physical stamina and reaction times are estimated at 20 years physically older than I am, and I can tell you that 60+ year olds are definitely slower than 40 years olds as 40 year olds are to 20 year olds. Aging isn't a bad thing, or something to get angry about. You can do nothing about it, apart from decent diet and exercise which can prolong your physical well being and mobility. Shit wears out though, including neurons and ganglia, as well as muscle atrophy, joint wear & tear, skin elasticity, blah blah.

The age appropriate chart they measure your reactions against has different categories to cover a broad range responses for each age group. It's just life. You Baby Boomers AREN'T going to live forever no matter what they said in that 1955 Popular Mechanics.


I'm fifty and I have broken at least two fingernails - Ok the last one was technically a graze...

Did you ever see the BBC program where Jeremy Clarkson matches Michael Schumacher on reaction times... Come on.

P.S. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be...
P.P.S. Probably helps that I work for a gym company....

[Bonez]

I'm fifty and I broken at least two fingernails - Ok the last one was technically a graze...

Did you ever see the BBC program where Jeremy Clarkson matches Michael Schumacher on reaction times... Come on.It should also be noted that quite a few of those "born again bikers" don't leap straight on to current machinery. Quite a few go through a transition by getting a 10-15yo bike first then upgrade.

[daytona 2]

My last bike before being "born again" was a yamaha dt400 (fast with crap brakes and road trail tyres!)). And I had not riden since 1981, then last year I spent 6 months on a honda magna 250, I thought, better play it safe. Well it was bloody dangerous on that machine (nice built quality though), and I have since bought a suzuki Vx800, more like it, I can now mix it with the 'Caged And Raged' basically this power enables me to be where I want to be on the road, the safest place. My opinion is that, like flying airplanes it is a life-style choice, shit happens, at least I might die having some fun. Let the p.c. brigade think that they can legislate against danger and death. I like to think that an element of risk is a small price to pay for such a wonderful thing as a motorcycle.
"we band of brothers" (and sisters!)
Daytona2's dad.

[DonaldH]

It should also be noted that quite a few of those "born again bikers" don't leap straight on to current machinery. Quite a few go through a transition by getting a 10-15yo bike first then upgrading.

Nope, straight to a 2000 R6 from a 1980 CB900. Who's guessing what handled better and stopped better.

[sels1]

some random comments.....

Used to live across the road from the bloke quoted in the article....didnt find him particulaly endearing....(like Skyriders comment)

I returned to biking after a 20 year gap, what I lost in reaction time I had replaced with road sense/defensive driving skills gained from a job that has me driving all over the country.

And it still all comes down to attitude - whatever the age

[Bonez]

Nope, straight to a 2000 R6 from a 1980 CB900. Who's guessing what handled better and stopped better.I didn't say all did I? So you last rode in 1980? Or was the CB900 to get you back into biking?
Maybe I should have typed quite a few "born again riders" use an older bike to get back into motorcycling.

[Bonez]

And it still all comes down to attitude - whatever the ageThat's it in a nutshell Salwyn.

[Ocean1]

Did you ever see the BBC program where Jeremy Clarkson matches Michael Schumacher on reaction times... Come on.

Reminds me of an article I read about what makes pro racers, test pilots and astronauts different from mere mortals.

Lots of detailed tests showed thet the reason isn't one readily quantifiable skill like reaction time, it's a set that amounts to superior predictive capabilitiy. They can simultaniously manage more data streams than us and they can process it faster.

Sounds easy don't it?

[Katman]

They can simultaniously manage more data streams than us and they can process it faster.

Sounds easy don't it?

I can rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time.

[toycollector10]

From following a 50 plus idiot without any gear on at all except a helmet up the passes here in Christchurch, where he couldn't even stay on his own side of the road, to the 15 year old in jandals and shorts, t-shirt and sweet F/A else, it's no wonder the statistics are blowing out.

And yes, $20,000 dollars across the counter at your local dealer and 200 miles don't make you a motorcyclist. From a Yamaha RD350 to a superbike is a bike step.

[Hitcher]

I can rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time.

Not while you're browsing this web site you can't.

[Ocean1]

I can rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time.

Ah, that's not yer stomach dude...

[DonaldH]

I didn't say all did I? So you last rode in 1980? Or was the CB900 to get you back into biking?
Maybe I should have typed quite a few "born again riders" use an older bike to get back into motorcycling.


Nah just love riding bikes... Check this out my 50th Birthday present last week at Phillip Island

http://www.sdpics.com/cgi-bin/store/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=8000~Motor_Sport/8800~Bikes/500~Australian_Ride_Days_-_Schools_-_Events/09~Phillip_Island_Ride_Days/2008/99142~24_March_2008_Phillip_Island_Ride_Days/4~White_Gp_-_Slow&image=MQ0Y6868.jpg&img=&tt=&tfile=tn_MQ0Y6868.jpg

[oldrider]

In my opinion, yes it is, if not officially, definitely from a personal perspective!

Before quiting active employment (OK, retiring) I used to average 80K km per year driving in my works car plus riding my bike whenever I got the chance.

Over the last ten years I have refused to drive our car unless I have to and insist that if we go anywhere the bike is the first choice!

Over that time I have noticed that all of my riding/driving attributes have deteriorated by at least some degree and I have to be very aware of my limitations when out riding or driving. (especially when I am tired or cold)

I do not see this as any kind of weakness as long as I am aware and compensate or make calculated allowances for my loss of physical attributes and mental sharpness I can manage to perform riding/driving activities to a safe and competent standard.

When I am unable to do this I will volunteer to quit and surrender my drivers licence!

The big question is, how will I know when that time actually arrives?

I have trusted peers and relatives that will tell me long before it becomes a problem!

For instance, My wife rides on the pillion more often than not and she is four years younger than me, so I figure she has as close a vested interest in my riding capabilities as anyone and I know she wont stay quiet about it for long!

Personally I take this subject very seriously but I am still deep down just the same silly kid I was 54 years ago and every now and then that kid takes over and does something a bit silly before I can get him under control again!

The trouble is I sort of let him go for a wee bit too long sometimes because I too am enjoying the thrill of being a little reckless along with him! :doh:

That problem is a work in progress but we are still on the case! :whistle:

I intend to continue to ride my bike for as long as I am physically and mentally able to do so but I do acknowledge that being "legally licenced" to do so may not mean the same thing.

After 54 years I can still count the number of significant offs I have had on one hand and by the feel of the last one I think global hardening is much more serious a problem than global warming!

In summary what I am trying to say is yes, in my experience, we do lose the edge off our physical and mental attributes and not to acknowledge this and be aware of our limitations, especially when we are riding/driving is as irresponsible as driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs, in my honest opinion!

I think "The older I get the better I was" is a very dangerous mental attitude for an ageing motorcyclist to harbour inside his head.

If we want to earn and maintain the respect of our peers and juniors we must try to think and act respectfully ourselves!

Especially so when riding/driving. :ride: Cheers John.

[Bonez]

Nah just love riding bikes... Check this out my 50th Birthday present last week at Phillip Island

http://www.sdpics.com/cgi-bin/store/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=8000~Motor_Sport/8800~Bikes/500~Australian_Ride_Days_-_Schools_-_Events/09~Phillip_Island_Ride_Days/2008/99142~24_March_2008_Phillip_Island_Ride_Days/4~White_Gp_-_Slow&image=MQ0Y6868.jpg&img=&tt=&tfile=tn_MQ0Y6868.jpg
Cool.:yes::yes::yes:

[Ocean1]

When I am unable to do this I will volunteer to quit and surrender my drivers licence!

Surprisingly, I remember a time when I knew even less about riding than I do now. Surprising both that my memory's that good and that such a miniscule unit of knowlege actually exisits...

Like all of my contemporaries I was fookin' dangerous on a bike, the body was willing but the head was utterly clueless. The repeted application of varying quantities of pain helped, and at some point I came to be as good as I was ever going to be.

Comes a time when experience isn't enough to offset the loss of the formidible power of youth, it's a far more usefull tool though, experience, so I think you're entitled to get yer leg over a few more times yet eh John?

[Ixion]

I remember a time when I knew more about riding than I do now. Indeed, I remember the time when I knew everything there ws to know.

Experience cannot for ever offset the ravages of age. But then, biking keeps at bay those ravages. The Gods do not deduct from the span of years of men, the time spent riding.

[Swoop]

They can simultaniously manage more data streams than us and they can process it faster.
So they just hired females then?

[Ocean1]

So they just hired females then?

Probably not a bad scheme. We're really only good for two things, they both take a bit of effort but neither of them take very long... :rolleyes:

[Japtwin]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1501307]Surprisingly, I remember a time when I knew even less about riding than I do now. Surprising both that my memory's that good and that such a miniscule unit of knowlege actually exisits...

Ditto. I rode a Z1000 fell into an oncoming truck, skipped a generation.... leapt out of the zimmer frame onto a TL1000 to find I was just as crap a rider as in my last lifetime. Really shook my trust in reincarnation I tell you.
Are scientologists allowed to ride motorcycles or only spacecraft?