Philosophy, Post-Modernism, a Refresh of the Enlightenment

[James Deuce]

Having just watched MDU hang himself on his presuppositions (which each of us largely share) I thought I'd try to expand this line of discussion. I think most of us suffer from a rather diminutive understanding of the definition of culture and all "cultures" involved in any form of Globalism have undergone vast changes resulting in the wholesale expurgation of assumed values.

This man quoted below, has a better handle on the fan bois of post modernism and Fascist Feminists than they suppose. He has determinedly championed historical accuracy, modernism as an expression of the present and post modernism as a cynical justification for a large number of current crimes against personal freedoms and the excesses of the misunderstood and misapplied economic ideas of Adam Smith.

Christianity has functioned for the normative self-understanding of modernity as more than a mere precursor or a catalyst. Egalitarian universalism, from which sprang the ideas of freedom and social solidarity, of an autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, of the individual morality of conscience, human rights, and democracy, is the direct heir to the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. This legacy, substantially unchanged, has been the object of continual critical appropriation and reinterpretation. To this day, there is no alternative to it. And in the light of the current challenges of a postnational constellation, we continue to draw on the substance of this heritage. Everything else is just idle postmodern talk.

Jurgen Habermas, "Conversation about God and the World." Time of transitions. Cambridge: Polity Press 2006, p. 150-151



Personally I think the only way forward on a global scale is to discard Keynesian capitalism and adopt a mixture of Deliberative Democracy, Universal Pragmatics and Stiglitzian economics. The age of personal responsibility is drawing to a close and Foucault's predictions of Totalitarianism through the rights of the Individual, however flawed are becoming a reality. Instead of an ethical society determined to share the wealth (not necessarily via Socialist means - calm down Finn), there are a decreasing number of financial, moral, religious and radical factions building "Fortresses of Right", and assuming "leadership" while people just try to get on with their life.

The underpinnings of "Western Culture" have shifted way the fuck over there somewhere and there is a significant world power relying on people not noticing. Our biggest challenge is accepting a different standard of living. I shy away from reduced, because what I'm essentially saying is changing from a highly mobile, resource intensive society to a village based, transactional, discursive and conversational communication oriented society, that walks everywhere.

Ethics and morals have disappeared from the "top" layer, the international, intercultural layer of our culture. We, however, still own and operate under their guidance and our assumptions are literally dropping us in the crap. If Jurgen Habermas can acknowledge the underpinnings of Western Society in the quoted paragraph as being diametrically opposed to his model of "rational humanity" yet intrinsic to the survival of our "culture", why do we let ourselves get tripped up by Victorian values and beliefs, based in clear perceptions of other cultures as inferior , stupid, and clearly not worthy of "ascending" to our cultural status?

[Str8 Jacket]

:blink: Thanks for making me feel VERY stoopid Jim. I think I only understood 4 or 5 words in that whole post! :blink:

[jrandom]

See?

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.

We are not worthy to respond, et cetera.

Anyway.

I haven't read Stiglitz, although the magical world of the internets is telling me that his ideas are sound, and more importantly, are motivated by rational humanism rather than the aforementioned faux-Victorian value system.

So I guess I'd best go do some research.

However, regardless of the accuracy and moral substance of Habermas's comments, the fact remains that there exists a plenitude of evil men who will will never be swayed from their destructive courses by means other than force.

The only true path to the utopia you envisage, Jim, is paved with blood, steel, lead, and the lamentations of women.

And, of course, having reached Utopia with boots soaked in the gore of the unworthy and ears deafened from the clash and sting of righteous battle in the name of justice and moderation, the intrepid voyagers in social experimentation would find their minds crumbling back towards the low-entropy state of selfish waste and abandon that the world has spent its entire history wallowing in.

Also, you misspelled 'enlightenment' in the thread title.

[James Deuce]

Also, you misspelled 'enlightenment' in the thread title.

Is fixed. Cheers!

[James Deuce]

:blink: Thanks for making me feel VERY stoopid Jim. I think I only understood 4 or 5 words in that whole post! :blink:
Don't worry Hels I had to have a brain dump or I'd explode. I've been reading about how the IMF reamed Stiglitz while he was the World Bank chair. Apparently, pointing out that IMF policy doesn't work is bad for your career prospects and reputation.

[Str8 Jacket]

Don't worry Hels I had to have a brain dump or I'd explode. I've been reading about how the IMF reamed Stiglitz while he was the World Bank chair. Apparently, pointing out that IMF policy doesn't work is bad for your career prospects and reputation.

Just as long as we're not talking IVF here..... and as long as we're talking about BRAIN dumps and not the other kind! :devil2:

[jrandom]

Don't worry Hels I had to have a brain dump or I'd explode. I've been reading about how the IMF reamed Stiglitz while he was the World Bank chair. Apparently, pointing out that IMF policy doesn't work is bad for your career prospects and reputation.

Did he actually manage to take significant action toward the furtherance of goals in accordance with his philosophies, or did he leave that position a frustrated and bitter man?

[Ixion]

The intellectuals will still be chattering when the Communists put them up against the wall. Pass me that Kalashnikov. Problem sorted.

[Hitcher]

An unfortunate reality of our society is that it encourages "reef fish" that blindly and unquestioningly follow the ideology du jour, whether that be Friedmanism, terrorism or "climate change". New Zealand's politicians, government officials, business "leaders" and media are no exception.

We are poorly served by media that do not present dissenting or different views, instead having to rely on things like Snopes to unearth the urban legends, cartoonists like Doonesbury to niggle politicians, and the occasional curmudgeon prepared to rattle cages in the face of personal ridicule and scorn. RIP, Augie Auer.

The world we think that we live in is unsustainable on many different levels: politically, socially, culturally and environmentally. I have been waiting for some time to see what the tipping point will be that aims us in a new direction. According to that great mind, Rachel Hunter, "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen".

Human history tells us enough to know that whatever the new direction may be, it will not be "sustainable". Humans are too self-absorbed and just plain greedy to ever allow such a utopia.

I concur with Jim2's vision of a village-based society, but discount his "walking everywhere" scenario. There are sufficient technologies that will survive a societal melt-down to ensure that we can do better than that. I hope.

[James Deuce]

Did he actually manage to take significant action toward the furtherance of goals in accordance with his philosophies, or did he leave that position a frustrated and bitter man?
His personal philsophy hasn't changed, and the best thing about him is he is entertaining and easy to learn from and he never leaves you feeling stupid. John Campbell wanted to marry him afetr 10 minutes of interview time which confirms what I've always thought of the boy (ish) wonder.

I would suggest his experience merely confirmed the basis of his stinging critique of IMF monetary policy as essentially correct.

[007XX]

As much as I do like the "egalitarian universalism" point of view, isn't it a little idealistic?

Inevitable? perhaps...likely to become the norm within an age that all taking part in this discussion would ever be likely to see if their life span? highly unlikely...

I would be the first to applaud such a change in worldwide sentiment, but I am afraid that basic human nature will be the undoing of such a concept.

Humans are stupid to start with...sheep generally wanting to be led....and religion is just what is generally required for such a state of mind.

Throw in the basic greed and you get what christianity has been about for centuries: leading the masses to suit "their" grand design...although maybe dwindling in their obvious presence, I am fully convinced that they are far from relinquishing their hold on the mere mortals.

But eh, I've had a glass of wine, and could have completely misunderstood what you guys are on about...

Nice write up anyway Mr Jim2!

[Mikkel]

As for the question you pose at the end of post #1 I think the answer is quite simply that most people, including the vast majority of those who sets the agenda, does not begin to have the same insight into the complexity and depth of the matter that Mr. Habermas possesses. Whether Mr. Habermas is right or wrong matters little - his statement, as quoted above, certainly proves that he has a significant insight into matters of importance in relation to the current state of global issues.

As for utopia and peaceful coexistance - I can only refer to the first principle of Neitzsche: the will to power. As long as humanity is humane there will be no hope of these ideals. Only by transcending common limitations such as ignorance, fear and emotional "logic" is it possible to achieve a harmonious coexistance on a global scale.

[Ignore the first line of my signature in regards to this post.]

[Coyote]

I wouldn't have been able to read that a year ago.

Lets hope I can understand it next year :laugh:


Joe Bennett (cool dude) said some brilliant things in his last column. But this really struck out: "Democracy is better than anything else. But that still doesn't make it as good as they say. The trouble with democracy is that the only people who get power are the people who want power".

Grow up in my generation and you'll loose hope for society coming right in the future.


Watch the film "Idiocracy". It's a good movie. Wikipedia explains it well :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

[James Deuce]

Grow up in my generation and you'll loose hope for society coming right in the future.



There might be 20 years between us, but we're stuck in the same vacuum.

[Coyote]

There might be 20 years between us, but we're stuck in the same vacuum.
I'm 20 years behind in wisdom and diction too.

I'm thinking of becoming Anti-Christ. Get the Apocalypse ball a-rollin'.

[Mikkel]

I'm thinking of becoming Anti-Christ.

I hope you have got a WICKED CV then. There seems to be some contention for that particular position... ;)

[Hitcher]

Doomsayers are rarely right, as the current crop of nutters buried in a Russian cave are grim testimony. There's this Pollyanna streak in humanity, combined with dumb luck, that has worked well for us to date in both an evolutionary and sociological sense. But how long will that lucky streak last?

[Ixion]

Who cares. So long as it lasts a few more years until I'm not around, that's all that matters. Besides Doomsday is a beginning, not an ending.

[James Deuce]

Doomsday is presaged by an Upper Huttian riding an unmuffled, and until recently unloved, Honda CB200.

I saw him last night. I think he is the 5th rider of the Apocalypse: Scrofula.

[Hitcher]

I think he is the 5th rider of the Apocalypse: Scrofula.

The 4th Rider, Chlamydia, is having problems with countersteering.

[James Deuce]

That's what comes from steering with your bottom.

[Coyote]

Besides Doomsday is a beginning, not an ending.
Exactly. That's why I'm keen to get it started. Maybe 1000 years of the lord ruling will set things straight.

Apocalypse is the battle ground where heaven and hell wage the war to end all wars. It's not the name of the day.


So the book says. Could all be fiction and we're destined to live under a plutocracy until the world decays.

[Hitcher]

Could all be fiction and we're destined to live under a plutocracy until the world decays.

It's not fiction. "Plutocracy" is merely code for "Bloody Labour Gummint".

[Coyote]

It's not fiction. "Plutocracy" is merely code for "Bloody Labour Gummint".
The Book of Revelations isn't fiction?

And I think it's 'code' for any party that has a hope of getting into power in any Western civilisation.

[Mikkel]

Well, let's not forget that our beloved motorcycles are but one incarnation of said plutocracy.

...as is this forum. :yes:

[MisterD]

S'all a bunch of bollocks innit? Anyone who uses the term "postmodern" and expects to be taken seriously needs a cricket bat applied behind the ear by B.McCullum...

[Fatjim]

Live and let live.

[SPman]

I'm hoping the next large meteorite is going to come and provide a clean slate..........preferrably after I'm not around, but.............

[Mikkel]

I'm hoping the next large meteorite is going to come and provide a clean slate..........preferrably after I'm not around, but.............

I'm just hoping that humanity, as a whole, might one day actually grow up and accept resposibility for its actions.

Kinda embarrasing to have to wait for an external event to come along and clear the slate for us eh?

[Pwalo]

I'm just hoping that humanity, as a whole, might one day actually grow up and accept resposibility for its actions.

Kinda embarrasing to have to wait for an external event to come along and clear the slate for us eh?

So are you suggesting we should wipe the slate clean ourselves? Perhpas MAD wasn't a bad idea after all?

[007XX]

I'm just hoping that humanity, as a whole, might one day actually grow up and accept resposibility for its actions.

Pollyana?.....Is that you m'dear? :mellow:


Kinda embarrasing to have to wait for an external event to come along and clear the slate for us eh?

But hasn't it been the rule for centuries?(rhetorical of course).
Humanity has been looking for cataclysmic cleansing for aeons now, eager to find the usual "quick fix" which will make it all ok...why? Because humans' nature is to be lazy.

Rather than to actually take responsibility for anything they do, they want the Pill-that-will-solve-it-all...

We are our own worst enemy, using our advancing technology to mask the flaws in our character. We invent ways of pallying to our deficiencies rather than face them and realise the answer is within ourselves. The bitter medecine of truth is above all the one that we want to avoid at all cost and our egos ruin the gifts we have been given, be it the Earth itself, or our talents as human beings.

Humanity is a monster which can be likened to the Ouroboros...The dragon forever eating its own tail...As much as we do not want to admit it, we are predictable and learning from the past mistakes is the only way we can entertain the idea of moving forward.

[Sully60]

So are you suggesting we should wipe the slate clean ourselves? Perhpas MAD wasn't a bad idea after all?

M.A.D. is the reason you could type that post and I'm able to reply to it.

[Krayy]

...
However, regardless of the accuracy and moral substance of Habermas's comments, the fact remains that there exists a plenitude of evil men who will will never be swayed from their destructive courses by means other than force...
I think that you are right citing that the shady men behind thrones of power are as ruthless as ever. Many conspiracy theories abound that the situations that brought about both World Wars, the Vietnam conflict and the war in Iraq were manufactured by a ruling elite, mainly bankers and personally I believe most of them.

The IMF appears also to be ruled by this group, and the tragic economic policies that they institute in 3rd world countries under the guise of aid that drive them into bankruptcy, only to be saved by selling the entire country back to that group can only be called piracy or and theft at best.

There is hope however, in that the powers that be (The New World Order, the Bilderberg Group, or another bunch of bankers) are chasing an economically based political advantage and could be exposed by enough countries or other economic bases standing firm and saying enough is enough.

The perceived power of the US economy is such a beast, which is based on Fractional Reserve banking and not underwritten by a gold standard. This means that the actual monies issued within the United States are not worth the paper that they are written on, and as a world wide standard of currency, that is not a good thing, as we can see with the current effect their housing crisis is having on our monetary rate. This Fractional Reserve banking system is controlled by the Federal Reserve, which is a private company that is run by European banking concerns and has literally a license to print money.

If a large number of countries that view the US as a major export earner told them to shove it and created their own consortiums, their economy would crumble overnight. That is the power to control your destiny.

We as a country are not in so deep as to be overly controlled by the shadowy powers but that will change in the very near future, so the chance of a stand gets slimmer every year. The problem is that I, along with most of us here, are simply along for the ride, but if things do not change, then I fear for my children's children and the restrictions their lives may be placed under.

[Mikkel]

So are you suggesting we should wipe the slate clean ourselves? Perhpas MAD wasn't a bad idea after all?

I never said that. I think we should continue this discussion via PM - seems someone is already catching (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=70802) on to us.

[Mental Trousers]

See?

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.

We are not worthy to respond, et cetera.


Yes, your point was proved. But I read Jim2's post and the entire way through I kept thinking oh crap don't get me started I don't have time and I've got too much to do etc. I'm being lazy because I could write something on subject but it's too difficult right now and gets pushed to the bottom of todays to do list (with 20 other things that won't happen today).

[gijoe1313]

The massaging of intellectual might and the prowess of the posters here, have left me bereft of my senses! Keen is the prose and with witticisms interjected, the nature of this mercurial topic has brought to fore old thoughts, cogitating from earnest discussions and the perusing of many an old tome.

I sit here with breath abated, bathing in the light of knowledge dessiminated through the ages and explored with gusto in these smokey forums of fornication, scatology, innuendos, double entendres, malapropisms, hyperbole, licentiousness and other interesting kernels of humanity's behaviour.

Please carry on as you are ladies and gentleman, I look forward to the discourse that is generating a voluble dissonance and discombobulation among those that have not had the opportunity to be present in such voluminous and fecund musings ... indeed the exsiccating of the topic here will undoubtedly perforce a shining truth that will viscerally sear those fumbling for the mechanics to entertain that apogee of thought!

:corn:

[Edbear]

...However, regardless of the accuracy and moral substance of Habermas's comments, the fact remains that there exists a plenitude of evil men who will will never be swayed from their destructive courses by means other than force.

The only true path to the utopia you envisage, Jim, is paved with blood, steel, lead, and the lamentations of women.

And, of course, having reached Utopia with boots soaked in the gore of the unworthy and ears deafened from the clash and sting of righteous battle in the name of justice and moderation, the intrepid voyagers in social experimentation would find their minds crumbling back towards the low-entropy state of selfish waste and abandon that the world has spent its entire history wallowing in....

...and history repeats...


An unfortunate reality of our society is that it encourages "reef fish" that blindly and unquestioningly follow the ideology du jour, whether that be Friedmanism, terrorism or "climate change". New Zealand's politicians, government officials, business "leaders" and media are no exception.

We are poorly served by media that do not present dissenting or different views, instead having to rely on things like Snopes to unearth the urban legends, cartoonists like Doonesbury to niggle politicians, and the occasional curmudgeon prepared to rattle cages in the face of personal ridicule and scorn. RIP, Augie Auer.

The world we think that we live in is unsustainable on many different levels: politically, socially, culturally and environmentally. I have been waiting for some time to see what the tipping point will be that aims us in a new direction. According to that great mind, Rachel Hunter, "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen".

Human history tells us enough to know that whatever the new direction may be, it will not be "sustainable". Humans are too self-absorbed and just plain greedy to ever allow such a utopia...

Yup!


...Humans are stupid to start with...sheep generally wanting to be led....and religion is just what is generally required for such a state of mind.

Throw in the basic greed and you get what christianity has been about for centuries: leading the masses to suit "their" grand design...although maybe dwindling in their obvious presence, I am fully convinced that they are far from relinquishing their hold on the mere mortals.

But eh, I've had a glass of wine, and could have completely misunderstood what you guys are on about...

Nice write up anyway Mr Jim2!

Yup!


I'm just hoping that humanity, as a whole, might one day actually grow up and accept resposibility for its actions...

But I think most would agree a forlorn hope...


I think that you are right citing that the shady men behind thrones of power are as ruthless as ever. Many conspiracy theories abound that the situations that brought about both World Wars, the Vietnam conflict and the war in Iraq were manufactured by a ruling elite, mainly bankers and personally I believe most of them.

The IMF appears also to be ruled by this group, and the tragic economic policies that they institute in 3rd world countries under the guise of aid that drive them into bankruptcy, only to be saved by selling the entire country back to that group can only be called piracy or and theft at best.

There is hope however, in that the powers that be (The New World Order, the Bilderberg Group, or another bunch of bankers) are chasing an economically based political advantage and could be exposed by enough countries or other economic bases standing firm and saying enough is enough.

The perceived power of the US economy is such a beast, which is based on Fractional Reserve banking and not underwritten by a gold standard. This means that the actual monies issued within the United States are not worth the paper that they are written on, and as a world wide standard of currency, that is not a good thing, as we can see with the current effect their housing crisis is having on our monetary rate. This Fractional Reserve banking system is controlled by the Federal Reserve, which is a private company that is run by European banking concerns and has literally a license to print money.

If a large number of countries that view the US as a major export earner told them to shove it and created their own consortiums, their economy would crumble overnight. That is the power to control your destiny.

We as a country are not in so deep as to be overly controlled by the shadowy powers but that will change in the very near future, so the chance of a stand gets slimmer every year. The problem is that I, along with most of us here, are simply along for the ride, but if things do not change, then I fear for my children's children and the restrictions their lives may be placed under.


Anyone who doesn't think that desire/greed for money and desire/lust for power are the bottom line, is naive. Anyone who believes this will change, is also naive.

[Sully60]

...and history repeats...










Anyone who doesn't think that desire/greed for money and desire/lust for power are the bottom line, is naive. Anyone who believes this will change, is also naive.


Yup!
10 chars

[007XX]

...and history repeats...



Yup!



Yup!



But I think most would agree a forlorn hope...



Anyone who doesn't think that desire/greed for money and desire/lust for power are the bottom line, is naive. Anyone who believes this will change, is also naive.

Could you perhaps make that into a slightly more drawn out tirade? Your simplistic approach is but mildly vexing :shifty:

:laugh:

[Krayy]

...Anyone who doesn't think that desire/greed for money and desire/lust for power are the bottom line, is naive. Anyone who believes this will change, is also naive.
Guilty as charged, but I don't have to like. Consider me an Anti-Globalist minus the strong liberalism, feminism and other greeny-touchy-feely views.

PS: In the words of SJD (and a damn good beer ad):

Beautiful Haze
It might be nice to smash the state, but it's getting late
And mostly I'm just working for the man.
It might be good to tell the boss that I don't give a toss and to stick his lame-arse job
But I'm not sure that I can.

The universe is mostly fine with me - it seems to me the only place to be.

Wake up from your beautiful haze
Rise up, smash your beautiful chains, climb out of your beautiful maze
Rise up, rise up.
Climb down from your beautiful tower, you know you won't make beautiful remains.
All that's left is a beautiful hour
And its ours, ours

[Ocean1]

Anyone who doesn't think that desire/greed for money and desire/lust for power are the bottom line, is naive.

What's money?

Define power.

[Edbear]

Could you perhaps make that into a slightly more drawn out tirade? Your simplistic approach is but mildly vexing :shifty:

:laugh:


Man o' few words, I am...:innocent:


What's money?

Define power.

Goodonyermate...:msn-wink:

[007XX]

Define power.

I prefer to think of this definition:

http://www.answers.com/topic/balance-of-power

Yes, yes, I know....even I have little Polyanna moments :rolleyes:

[Ocean1]

I prefer to think of this definition:

http://www.answers.com/topic/balance-of-power

Yes, yes, I know....even I have little Polyanna moments :rolleyes:

Take... *counts* one step backwards.

Balanced or otherwise, power is conferred by the ability to destroy something. It’s a tool of control and it always requires either force or the believable threat of force.

And money? Is a unit of value, no more and no less.

So to paraphrase the gent with the chequered vest: Anyone who doesn't think that desire for value and for control are the bottom line, is naïve.

[007XX]

Take... *counts* one step backwards.

Balanced or otherwise, power is conferred by the ability to destroy something. It’s a tool of control and it always requires either force or the believable threat of force.

And money? Is a unit of value, no more and no less.

So to paraphrase the gent with the chequered vest: Anyone who doesn't think that desire for value and for control are the bottom line, is naïve.

Would you stop being so darn logical....gaaaahhh! I got a curly haired Shirley Temple like little girl inside of me screaming: "No, no...please let it not be so! Please let us be as one and kiss in the sunshine and never be bad to each other..."

Maybe more people shoukld read about the Sword of Damocles.

[Ixion]

Guilty as charged, but I don't have to like. Consider me an Anti-Globalist minus the strong liberalism, feminism and other greeny-touchy-feely views.

PS: In the words of SJD (and a damn good beer ad):

Beautiful Haze
It might be nice to smash the state, but it's getting late
And mostly I'm just working for the man.
It might be good to tell the boss that I don't give a toss and to stick his lame-arse job
But I'm not sure that I can.

The universe is mostly fine with me - it seems to me the only place to be.

Wake up from your beautiful haze
Rise up, smash your beautiful chains, climb out of your beautiful maze
Rise up, rise up.
Climb down from your beautiful tower, you know you won't make beautiful remains.
All that's left is a beautiful hour
And its ours, ours

<dl><dd>The people's flag is deepest red,</dd><dd>It shrouded oft our martyr'd dead</dd><dd>And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,</dd><dd>Their hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold.
</dd></dl><dl><dd>It well recalls the triumphs past;</dd><dd>It gives the hope of peace at last:</dd><dd>The banner bright, the symbol plain,</dd><dd>Of human right and human gain.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>It suits today the meek and base,</dd><dd>Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place,</dd><dd>To cringe before the rich man's frown</dd><dd>And haul the sacred emblem down.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>With heads uncovered swear we all</dd><dd>To bear it onward till we fall.</dd><dd>Come dungeon dark or gallows grim,</dd><dd>This song shall be our parting hymn.
</dd></dl><dl><dd> <dl><dd>Then raise the scarlet standard high,</dd><dd>Within its shade we'll live and die,</dd><dd>Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,</dd><dd>We'll keep the red flag flying here.</dd></dl> </dd></dl>

[Ocean1]

Would you stop being so darn logical....gaaaahhh! I got a curly haired Shirley Temple like little girl inside of me screaming: "No, no...please let it not be so! Please let us be as one and kiss in the sunshine and never be bad to each other..."

Maybe more people shoukld read about the Sword of Damocles.

It don’t taste so bad, the restraint of power is common yet, as good a definition of nobility as I could wish for. Damocles lived, I wonder if Dionysius was the arsehole he was made out to be…

[Krayy]

I like to think I'm slightly more centre aligned than that.

Beautiful Haze is more about acceptance than revolution, as in "I know I should do something, but I'd rather ride my bike instead"

[007XX]

Damocles lived, I wonder if Dionysius was the arsehole he was made out to be…

I always wondered about that.

Historically, and as you stated before, power is very much either the threat or actual utilisation of strength to render people docile.

It would really make one jaded and a bit edgy to have to maintain such an aura of power at all time.

Although I don't condone the principle of royalty, I can see that the concept would be ideal to rule the dumb masses, if it was always in the hands of a just ruler.

That obviously, is just another utopia however.

i think no matter the concept, it is bound to have flaws, as it is forever to be only as good as the humans who put it in practice. Be it religion, politic, economic, nothing will ever be perfect. So ultimately, it is only ever about making the best of what we've got.

[vifferman]

Although I don't condone the principle of royalty, I can see that the concept would be ideal to rule the dumb masses, if it was always in the hands of a just ruler.
It doesn't need to be royalty - any form of dictatorship is a more efficient and stronger form of gummint than a democracy.
In fact, a theocracy is the best form of gummint, provided the god in charge was actually omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.

[007XX]

In fact, a theocracy is the best form of gummint, provided the god in charge was actually omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.

eeerrrr...meeeeepppp....I'm sorry, pelase try again. I do hope that was a sarcastic "get back on topic" reply! :laugh:

With theocracy, it would be solely up to its "representant(s)" to make the god omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc

Once again leaving it in the hands of individuals of flesh and blood (and with their respective flaws aka: greed, lust...) to make it work.

Nothing's the best...it's all flawed I tells ya!:wacko:

[Ocean1]

Historically, and as you stated before, power is very much either the threat or actual utilisation of strength to render people docile.

Bit simplistic, and simple military/police strength is limited within a single nation because the conscripts come from the great unwashed anyway. Ultimately those who govern require the consent of the governed... with one exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_despotism


I don't condone the principle of royalty, I can see that the concept would be ideal to rule the dumb masses, if it was always in the hands of a just ruler.

Viffer's onto it, management by committee is a cast iron guarantee of mediocrity. Better to define the objective, identify the best single entity for the job and turn ‘em loose. At least while their KPIs stack up…

Dear God, ifn’ I don’t get a new 1125R for Xmas you’re fired!