Letter from ACC

[sunhuntin]

just got this in the letter box, from acc.

dear sunhuntin

as a motorcyclist owner, you probably know first-hand about the many risks motorcyclists face when using the roads

a group here in the manawatu/wanganui region, including motorcycle clubs, the manawatu motorcycle safety group, local police and road controlling authorities, LTNZ and acc, is asking for help from motorcycle owners to try to reduce these risks.

in the past, your probably been the victim of bad driiving - or been suprised by a road hazard you didnt expect. we believe we can learn from these incidents, because for every road crash that occurs, there are probably numerous near-misses.

heres how you can help

wed like you to tell us about any near misses youve had in the last two months, using the near miss form attached. once youve completed the form, all you have to do is fold it then send it - freepost.

the information you provide will geko us identify key areas we could focus on to try to make our local roads safer.

i hope you can help us. by working together, we can make a difference.

[name censored]
acc injury prevention consultant
LEVIN.

and theres a form on the back with questions and spaces for answering. questions include: where it happened, date and time, details of what happened and what would have reduced the risk. id like to reply, i really would, but ive had so many damn near misses in the last two months, itd take a week to write em all down, and mostly the answer for what would have reduced it comes down to driver stupidity [tail gating in poor conditions, cutting off, etc] im also wondering whether i can submit my one and only accident that happened on 06 as part of this?

[Coldrider]

A near miss is as good as an event statistically, and could be used against us.

[Edbear]

A near miss is as good as an event statistically, and could be used against us.

Call me a cynic, but I'd be asking a couple of questions...

[Tank]

They knew your KB login was "sunhuntin" ?

fuck - the g'ment must be watching.

[007XX]

A side of me would like to give them the benefit of the doubt as the logic behind such an initiative sounds good.

But another side is just shouting: "yeah right...pull the other one, why don't you?"

Admitedly, new measures such as the new rules for learner and restricted licences do show that they are giving it some thought and are not too far out of reality.

I guess my take would be after reflexion: what harm can it do?

[Swoop]

Put down every speed trap and speed camera you see. They cause people to brake heavily and create near-misses.

[Edbear]

They knew your KB login was "sunhuntin" ?

fuck - the g'ment must be watching.

KB - world famous in NZ...

[Coldrider]

Call me a cynic, but I'd be asking a couple of questions...
If a near miss is out of our control, so could happen, and there are say 50 near misses to one event (injury or worse), do you think ACC premiums will go up or down?
The company I work for is an ACC accredited employer and I know what counts.

[Coldrider]

Do you pass your near misses onto your insurance company, under disclosed information that may affect your insurance premium risk?

[Patrick]

A near miss is as good as an event statistically, and could be used against us.


Call me a cynic, but I'd be asking a couple of questions...

Makes me think that ACC is giving us, the poor motorbikers, some sympathy for a change... lower ACC premiums for bikes perhaps? (once they see that most of the time, its the cars that have dopey drivers that are the main problems, not the bikers... loose gravel on corners from roadworks that have not been cleaned up properly, those sorts of things...).

Wishful thinking, on my part, perhaps????

[chanceyy]

I got the same letter .. but the only near misses I have is when there is a hazard on the road & its not warned about .. IE pea gravel :)

I am rather cynical about the info the are wanting .. but to my mind the conditon of some roads leaves a lot to be desired so I will only comment on this one .. esp the road out of fordell pea gravel sharp left hand bend with no warning comes instantly to mind .. how many crashes have there been there??

[Edbear]

If a near miss is out of our control, so could happen, and there are say 50 near misses to one event (injury or worse), do you think ACC premiums will go up or down?
The company I work for is an ACC accredited employer and I know what counts.

Yeah, that's why I'm a little bit skeptical as to their motive. On the face of it, it sounds innocent enough, but ACC are playing up motorcycle accident/injury statistics at the moment, how are they going to incorporate "near misses" into those?


Makes me think that ACC is giving us, the poor motorbikers, some sympathy for a change... lower ACC premiums for bikes perhaps? (once they see that most of the time, its the cars that have dopey drivers that are the main problems, not the bikers... loose gravel on corners from roadworks that have not been cleaned up properly, those sorts of things...).

Wishful thinking, on my part, perhaps????


Unfortunately, ACC don't consider the causes, just the results. It doesn't matter why you crashed, the fact that you did and cost the health system money, is what counts. Yes, bike accidents resulting in injury and death have increased disproportionately, but the fact that 75% of them are caused by car drivers, is irrelevant to them.

[chanceyy]

Yeah, that's why I'm a little bit skeptical as to their motive. On the face of it, it sounds innocent enough, but ACC are playing up motorcycle accident/injury statistics at the moment, how are they going to incorporate "near misses" into those?


Unfortunately, ACC don't consider the causes, just the results. It doesn't matter why you crashed, the fact that you did and cost the health system money, is what counts. Yes, bike accidents resulting in injury and death have increased disproportionately, but the fact that 75% of them are caused by car drivers, is irrelevant to them.

and is this a reason to make motorcyclists wear fluro vest ?? I still would prefer to know upfront what they "plan to do with this info" hmm actually might have to contact this person (since she is a local) & see if they are keen to subsidise the RRRS course I want to hold ...

[Patrick]

esp the road out of fordell pea gravel sharp left hand bend with no warning comes instantly to mind .. how many crashes have there been there??

That one nearly caught me out 2 years ago... it hasn't changed still????


Unfortunately, ACC don't consider the causes, just the results. It doesn't matter why you crashed, the fact that you did and cost the health system money, is what counts. Yes, bike accidents resulting in injury and death have increased disproportionately, but the fact that 75% of them are caused by car drivers, is irrelevant to them.

Perhaps it is a survey on the "actual causes" of why motorbikes feature so regularly? Still being hopeful, agreeing with the voices in my head for a change....

[Coldrider]

Yeah, that's why I'm a little bit skeptical as to their motive. On the face of it, it sounds innocent enough, but ACC are playing up motorcycle accident/injury statistics at the moment, how are they going to incorporate "near misses" into those?

It exposes the true risk involved in being a motorcyclist.
Motorcyclist should take that risk on themselves and be responsible about it, otherwise down the track we will lose our toys, as per other threads on KB happening overseas.

[chanceyy]

That one nearly caught me out 2 years ago... it hasn't changed still????



no & I know 86GSXR was talking to the farmer a wee bit later on after I had my off & he said that there are a number of crashes there .. but still no warning has been put on it

[Edbear]

...Perhaps it is a survey on the "actual causes" of why motorbikes feature so regularly? Still being hopeful, agreeing with the voices in my head for a change....

I do think the information would be good, and could be very useful, I just wonder whether they will use it for education, or an excuse to target the biker cost-wise. I mean, why are bike rego's so high when it's the cars causing the problem?


It exposes the true risk involved in being a motorcyclist.
Motorcyclist should take that risk on themselves and be responsible about it, otherwise down the track we will lose our toys, as per other threads on KB happening overseas.

As my reply to Patrick, while we as bikers can take responsibility, often the accident is "out of our hands" so to speak, so the logical thing as far as I'm concerned would be to increase the car reg. instead of the bike reg. and make the car drivers aware that their knocking bikers off, is costing THEM money!

[Coldrider]

As my reply to Patrick, while we as bikers can take responsibility, often the accident is "out of our hands" so to speak, so the logical thing as far as I'm concerned would be to increase the car reg. instead of the bike reg. and make the car drivers aware that their knocking bikers off, is costing THEM money!

I would like to agree with that but the cost of money and the path of least resistance means the minority is going to lose.

[Patrick]

"Say nothing, get nothing" perhaps?

[Coldrider]

"Say nothing, get nothing" perhaps?
Cost Benefit ratios, safety does not rate as high as people presume, that is where emotion cuts in.
LTSA, ACC and those that police the roads have different cashflow streams.
It would take huge synergies and change of focus to have an impact, and how can Govt Ministries do that.
'Name censored" from ACC Levin may just be doing a project for his/her KIPS or goals for a payrise.

[Patrick]

Cost Benefit ratios, safety does not rate as high as people presume, that is where emotion cuts in.
LTSA, ACC and those that police the roads have different cashflow streams.
It would take huge synergies and change of focus to have an impact, and how can Govt Ministries do that.
'Name censored" from ACC Levin may just be doing a project for his/her KIPS or goals for a payrise.

True...

But times change... The ambulance at the bottom of the cliff is not working. Maybe, just maybe... they are trying out ways of finding out what is causing motorbikes to fall over, other than crap riders. Wouldn't that be nice?

[Coyote]

Shit, wake up call for me. This just got me thinking "gee, what near misses have I had lately" and I can't think of anything. I certainly know there have been several near misses, but I've become dismissive of them since they're such a normal thing now.

I am aware, there'd certainly be more near misses otherwise. Always got to make sure that 4x4 you see crawling over the double yellow lines at a stop sign is actually going to stop.

[SPman]

Near Miss?

Surely it should be a "near Hit"

A near miss, would be a hit, as in "I nearly missed him"

[Usarka]

Tell them you had a near miss on you farm bike, but are glad that the road registered riders pay for the increased premiums as a result :)

[hgmiers]

I suspect that this letter is to gain ammo. for them to make the wearing of fluoro vests compulsory! If a car cuts you off, etc. they can say that if you had a vest on, it would not have happened. That's crap, actually, because as many of us know, cars pull out blatantly even when they do see us - they know who will come off second best!

[davereid]

I suspect that this letter is to gain ammo. for them to make the wearing of fluoro vests compulsory! If a car cuts you off, etc. they can say that if you had a vest on, it would not have happened. That's crap, actually, because as many of us know, cars pull out blatantly even when they do see us - they know who will come off second best!
I have some sympathy for this view... clearly if a lot of bikers calim the accident or near miss occured because the motorist didnt spot you then you provide the ammunition required to justify the proposed flouro jacket rule.

Without hesitation I would wear a flouro jacket if I was convinced it worked.

But...

While I get a lot of recognition when I wear a shiny coat, I am sure it is because motorists have seen me, and think, even if just for a moment that I am a cop, or some kind of official. Because we link the shiny coat with authority.

I compare 3 recent bikes..

HD Sportster
Jappa midweight
and my usual transport, a moped scooter.

I sincerely believe that I am equally visiable on all bikes.

But on my HD I get a wider berth than on my jappa.

But on my scooter, I get no space at all. But its a big scooter. And I still wear all my biker gear.

Only last week, I was turning right, and a woman passed me on the left, then turned down the same street, in front of me cutting me off. I was missed by inches. But I was doing at least the speed limit. When I confronted her, she admitted she had seen me, but I was just in the way, and I assume she assumed that as a scooter rider I was non - threatening, so could be illegally overtaken.

She no longer has that view about scooter riders - I am sure she will me more cautious in future.

For me.. its not an issue of being seen. I thinj thats actually an excuse. I think that after sitting at a corner for ages, a motorcycle is seen as being as good as a gap in the traffic...even if its a bad call, it won't hurt.

(Actually, if its me, even if it's a borderline call it will hurt !)

[rottiguy]

Hi all, just thought I'd say today I got a letter from ACC saying because I own a motorcycle could I please fill out an enclosed near miss report of dick head car drivers who caused me shit in the last 2 months. It seems they are doing a bit of a survey to educate car drivers on how to look out for bikes and not to drive like F wits ( as if that will work ).
Just wondering if anyone else has had a letter yet, I think they must have got my details from LTNZ
Boy do I have some stories for them :niceone:

[Ixion]

One is suspicious. We may be sure that whatever ACC may be plotting, it won't be to our advantage.

What is needed here , is for everyone who fills in the form to *say* that any near misses happened when they were wearing a hi-vis jacket, even if y' never really wear one.

[Usarka]

One is suspicious. We may be sure that whatever ACC may be plotting, it won't be to our advantage.

What is needed here , is for everyone who fills in the form to *say* that any near misses happened when they were wearing a hi-vis jacket, even if y' never really wear one.

+1 Good call Ixion. make it a driver competency issue where it belongs.

[Mom]

I suspect that this letter is to gain ammo. for them to make the wearing of fluoro vests compulsory! If a car cuts you off, etc. they can say that if you had a vest on, it would not have happened. That's crap, actually, because as many of us know, cars pull out blatantly even when they do see us - they know who will come off second best!

I dont think for a second that hi-vis makes us more "seeable". There are so many people out there with the "hi-vis" vest or what have you, we will just blend in as we do now. Bit like the headlight debate really.


One is suspicious. We may be sure that whatever ACC may be plotting, it won't be to our advantage.


I agree! Your spidey sense works really well. I smell roses with too much horse shit around them.

[Usarka]

I dont think for a second that hi-vis makes us more "seeable". There are so many people out there with the "hi-vis" vest or what have you, we will just blend in as we do now. Bit like the headlight debate really.


Sorry mon, but your sound like switched on perosn, so what you think is probably poles apart from how ACC will interpret the answers.

hi-vis has been a gubbernmint topic resently. I really do think Ixions suggestion is in the best interest of bikers.

:)

(too serious for this time of night :eek:)

[Mom]

Sorry mon, but your sound like switched on perosn, so what you think is probably poles apart from how ACC will interpret the answers.

hi-vis has been a gubbernmint topic resently. I really do think Ixions suggestion is in the best interest of bikers.

:)

(too serious for this time of night :eek:)

OK, I will don the Hi-vis, and vote for it too, but be warned, I look terrible in neon anything....LOL

I am off to refresh my tipple! I agree, far too, far too.

[PrincessBandit]

All I can say is if that is an official letter that you've typed verbatim then it sounds exceptionally dodgy to me - right from the "motorcyclists owner" line!! Btw, how many motorcyclists do you own? Huh, come on now, fess up!:msn-wink::msn-wink: nudge nudge, say no more.

[dipshit]

Yes, bike accidents resulting in injury and death have increased disproportionately, but the fact that 75% of them are caused by car drivers, is irrelevant to them.

That's BS though. 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are caused by the motorcyclist. Including all injury motorcycle accidents, it is about 50/50.

Motorcyclists need to stop blaming everybody else.

[Ixion]

BTW, just what is this "Manawatu Motorcycle Safety Group" ? Anyone ever heard of it?

[chanceyy]

BTW, just what is this "Manawatu Motorcycle Safety Group" ? Anyone ever heard of it?

no I see its supported by bike shops in the area & there is a website I have left my letter at work so one of the others can advise the website address

[Edbear]

That's BS though. 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are caused by the motorcyclist. Including all injury motorcycle accidents, it is about 50/50.

Motorcyclists need to stop blaming everybody else.


I was just quoting from the letter, mate.

[Bonez]

no I see its supported by bike shops in the area & there is a website I have left my letter at work so one of the others can advise the website addresswww.rideforever.co.nz e-mail Manawatumsg@gmail.com

Let's get off the blame game and back on topic. Any feed back is better than non.
Been on a few rides lately and come across groups where a few riders have been wearing vest. They do stand out compared with the riders without them.

[Okey Dokey]

I guess I'm getting crusty and cynical, but my gut reaction is not to supply any information to ACC or the govmt. I don't trust them; I think they will twist it to do whatever they are already planning. And then claim they "consulted" first.

[Headbanger]

That's BS though. 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are caused by the motorcyclist. Including all injury motorcycle accidents, it is about 50/50.

Motorcyclists need to stop blaming everybody else.

Where do you get this info?

[Headbanger]

Righto, I recieved the letter today, Im with the cynics here, First thought was this will be used against us,

My second was I bet this is to introduce vests.

My third thought was to consider stating on their form that while travelling at 100km/h I passed within a couple feet of a "safety" barrier designed to cut bike rider's in half.

My fourth thought was to pour a juice and whine about it on KB'r....



Guess which highly productive course of action I went with.....

[dipshit]

Where do you get this info?

www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf

[rottiguy]

I agree that wearing high vis vests wont do squat, car drivers just don't give a crap about bikes. It's just like most truck drivers who know that if they get in a crash 99% of the time they will be fine. Car drivers "see" a bike and think "who cares I'm bigger than him he can get out of MY way" and they pull right out in front of you or cut you off.
In my opinion the only way to get car drivers to take us seriously is to make every person who wants a car license ride a bike for 1 year before they can get one. Then when they finally get into a car they will not only SEE us they will have a certain amount of empathy/appreciation for bike riders having been one themselves.

[Rogue]

dipshit is on to it I must CONCUR :niceone:
That site makes very interesting reading
Never again will I blame others :spanking:

By the way it will be a cold day in hell when I ever wear a hi-viz while riding

[hgmiers]

One is suspicious. We may be sure that whatever ACC may be plotting, it won't be to our advantage.

What is needed here , is for everyone who fills in the form to *say* that any near misses happened when they were wearing a hi-vis jacket, even if y' never really wear one.
Great idea. I'll do that. Hope lots more do it as well.

[quickbuck]

I got the same letter .. but the only near misses I have is when there is a hazard on the road & its not warned about .. IE pea gravel :)

I am rather cynical about the info the are wanting .. but to my mind the conditon of some roads leaves a lot to be desired so I will only comment on this one .. esp the road out of fordell pea gravel sharp left hand bend with no warning comes instantly to mind .. how many crashes have there been there??

I have been around a while, and have found that what is a near miss to some is just what happens to us motorcyclists... in my mind.

So instead of naming a particular incident... I couldn't think of one in the past couple of years... What? Old Timers you say? Eh?

Anyway... I generically stated that it would be great if the contractors cleaned up the mess before they removed the signs indicating road works.

There seems to be a trend of letting the traffic "sweep" the road.

We all know for us motorcyclists it can mean anything from, a stone to the throat from a passing vehicle ...to a slide on a bend and rider hitting the nearest solid object!

So let me explain my first comment.
After posting my letter off, I went for a blast over the saddle road.
Well blow me down! On the other side was freshly laid chip, and some kind person had knocked over the warning sign! Or, it was put in a place where I didn't see it. The light wasn't the best, and I had lots of bugs on my tinted visor.......
Well, good news is I worked out what was happening quickly, and took it easy... See if I wasn't experienced I may have locked a brake and gone cross country.
Well, many years ago that DID happen!

Oh, and once I got back onto the hard stuff on the saddle, I looked around, and saw the sign advising the uphill traffic.
Got me thinking, Did I just not see it? Maybe I was looking at the road rather than the grass at the time? Who knows.

Anyway, to back up my case there is still rubbish on the intersection outside Mt Biggs School from the work 6 weeks ago..... Well I think it has been there over 15 years to be truthful!

Oh, and sunhuntin herself knows first hand about the rubbish our local roading contractor dumps on the intersection of SH1 and Tangimoana Road.
Rocks to the knee smart!

[quickbuck]

down the track .

;) yes, much safer there!

[quickbuck]

I suspect that this letter is to gain ammo. for them to make the wearing of fluoro vests compulsory! If a car cuts you off, etc. they can say that if you had a vest on, it would not have happened. That's crap, actually, because as many of us know, cars pull out blatantly even when they do see us - they know who will come off second best!

Well, if this is the case, then it is easy to mess their data by talking about a near miss where visibility wasn't the factor.
Motorcycle incidents are more than cars pulling out in front of you.

A friend of mine described his near miss.
He was waiting to pull out from an intersection. A car was traveling from his right and had it's left hand indicator on.
Sweet he thought. I'll go now.
Well, as it turns out, the car hadn't turned off the indicator from the round about!
Yes near miss that time... Next time wait to see if the car actually turns!
Takes just a few more seconds, but better home a few seconds late than in Hospital!
If the car is more than a few seconds away, then you have heaps of time anyway....

[sunhuntin]

in the last week, ive seen 2 lots of unsigned roadworks in town. one was at the end of my street and was that yellow gravel stuff they put in potholes before sealing. had to go the long way to work due to a right hand turn being made dangerous by the gravel.

second was on a side road to my main motorbike park. looked like a pipe had been replaced, but it wasnt wide enough. it was the same stuff used in potholes. no signs, just cones.

and yet they have cones for africa for a side street having the footpath replaced.

im tempted to reply with photos showing the unmarked works, with details as to their location, as i view roadworks more a threat than car drivers... at least with cars theres a slim chance they will stop... with roadworks theres nothing you can do once you get caught on it. im also wondering, is there a way to find out how much diesel/petrol covers the roads around petrol stations? twice now ive locked the rear and ridden an invisivble slalom course on perfectly dry roads. on the same bit of road as well.

quickbuck... there hasnt been any gravel there since! its much better actually. :cool: im still trying to work out how it got across a passing lane, through my front wheel and impacted my left knee... very determined stone!

[Usarka]

One is suspicious. We may be sure that whatever ACC may be plotting, it won't be to our advantage.

What is needed here , is for everyone who fills in the form to *say* that any near misses happened when they were wearing a hi-vis jacket, even if y' never really wear one.

Hmmm not sure. They'll see all these high-vis bikers having near misses, then look at the accidents where most riders won't be wearing them.

Instant conclusion, a near miss is better than an accident, and hi-vis can make the difference between a hit and a miss.....