Strange Behaviour

[Lou Girardin]

Had a, fortunately rare, meeting of the minds with a member of the thin blue line on Saturday.
There I was, placidly Harleying over the coathanger after work; when I spy Mr Motorbike Plod, flouro vest and white helmet gleaming, gaining on me about 500-600 metres behind. So, being the law-abiding citizen that I am, I check the speedo, 80 k's on the dot, as it has been for ages. Mr Plod tucks in behind and I'm thinking that he's going to nail the Maserati beside me that tested the G forces while merging at Fanshaw St. Well, stuff me sideways, he hits the flashers and lights and apprehends me outside the Motorway base. Being a little perplexed, I hop off, open my helmet, and he says he's checked me at 95km/h on the bridge. Now I've heard about fit-ups, but this is the first time I've had it happen to me.
So I say that I was doing 80 k's, he says that I should get my speedo checked. I say that we don't do that with new bikes, we rely on the factory to make sure the speedos don't read slow.
He then asks why I hit the horn back at the Khyber Pass off-ramp. ( I blasted an old woman who thought she should stop in the middle lane because there was a Pleece car stopped on the shoulder). This guy actually followed me for all that way. Must have been a slow day for road crime.
Feeling the outrage grow, I said (very politely) that I disputed in the strongest terms that I was speeding. Then he says that he'd only picked up his Beemer 24 hours before and it did not have a certificate of accuracy for the speedo and he wasn't sure that it was accurate and would not issue a notice for speeding.
So, if he knew that, why the f#*k did he stop me.
My bind is moggled.

[marty]

1. maybe he was bored

2. maybe he knew who you were

3. maybe he didn't like harleys

4. maybe he was testing out his new lights

5. maybe he knew who you were

[DarkNinja]

1. sometimes i hit my horn accidentaly
2. doesnt it say on every page of the road code 'if in doubt, toot' ?

[ajturbo]

there's a road code????

[DarkNinja]

pretty much went into microsoft word, selected the search and replace option and:
Search: Car, Cars, Van, Ute, Anything else
Replace With: Motorcycle, Motorcycles, Death Machine, Anything Else
It even has pictures of cars for the demo things :S

[Bounty]

Maybe he should give up being a m/cycle plod, and transfer into police intelligence - now theres a contradiction! :shake: :Police:

[WINJA]

POLICE SUCK ,I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR PIGS IVE GONE THRU THIS KINDA SHIT ALL THE TIME. IVE BEEN TO COURT TWICE AND WON TWICE.

[StoneChucker]

Thats a little harsh don't ya think? But still, I was turning out of my folks street a couple of nights back, and bam! 5 police cars "buzzing" around in the space of about 300-500 meters! I thought I could make it through, but no :rolleyes: Red/Blue lights come on behind me, so I pull over. It was just a licence/reg/wof/bike check. The usual is this your bike, where do ya live, where did ya come from... I have to admit, he almost looked disappointed when he couldn't find anything wrong, but he was real nice, and MAN, was his partner tasty :love: I contemplated giving him a push, so she'd cuff me :niceone:

I reckon it's all good. My mum was hit by a drunk driver, luckily not hurt, but the more people they check, the safer the roads. And, maybe they'll pull my bike over and ask "is this your bike" to the rider, and it won't be, and they'll save my bike being stolen :sweatdrop

[Da Bird]

Then he says that he'd only picked up his Beemer 24 hours before and it did not have a certificate of accuracy for the speedo and he wasn't sure that it was accurate and would not issue a notice for speeding.
So, if he knew that, why the f#*k did he stop me.
My bind is moggled.
The new Beemers are all supposed to have electronic digital speedos fitted in addition to the normal speedo/rev counter and you can actually lock a speed on the digital speedo - maybe he didn't have one for some reason but they are all supposed to be fitted and calibrated when they leave the shop... Maybe it was just an excuse to not give you a ticket. Who knows?

[Yamahamaman]

Who knows?
May have wanted a closer look at the new Harley :whistle:

[Rainbow Wizard]

Sounds like a blatant attempt at a fit-up to me and I'd be writing a letter to the Police Complaints Authority. Jerk-off cops like that will think nothing of pinging even the innocent just to get their quota up, anybody less assertive than you Lou would now be a "speeding driver" statistic and a source of revenue. Hopefully you got his police number and you can bust the basstid. Just cut and paste your post Lou, should do the job.

[Kwaka-Kid]

1. maybe he knew who you were

2. maybe he knew who you were

3. maybe he knew who you were

4. maybe he knew who you were

5. maybe he knew who you were
Maybe it was just an excuse to not give you a ticket.?id be stoaked i didnt walk away with a ticket.

[avgas]

Yeh i had a good case a few years ago, when i had my rg.
While riding down akoranga drive at 40k's, i pull into a servo, and start topping up my bike (had no gas - hense the 40kmh).
Next thing i know, a cop cuts off my exit, leaps out of the car, and looks like hes gonna cuff me.
this was followed by, "Your bike is smokeing!" :eek5:
i then told him it was a 2 stroke - it does that!!!!!! :Pokey:
"Yes, but its burning oil!!!!"
:lol: I know that dopey, 2 strokes do that.
He then called in the plates and said i could only go home, or to the shop to get it fixed. I then told hime that i had it serviced 2 days ago, and that the bike was only 3 weeks old. Didnt matter to him
So i said :finger: i live in tauranga, got on the bike, and left.
I think they could educate the plod a little better, not just arrogance school.
Felt like i was on one of those boiling point shows or something.....but no

[What?]

I'd be writing a letter to the Police Complaints Authority.
Been there, done that. Story posted on this site. Total waste of time (unless one cop gets bulk complaints about him, then something might happen)

[Slim]

You were far too polite, Lou!

When the same thing happened to me, I was so shocked that my immediate response was a very indignant, "I was not!" to his initial claim that I was doing 130-something kph. And this while I was still sitting on the bike with my helmet on, and unable to even get the bike on the sidestand, he was so in my face. :crazy:

Next time I'll be getting his number & writing the letter.

[Sniper]

I had that once. I just said to the police man. You might be mistaken when he told me I was doing 123kph and a car overtook me. He said sorry it must have been the car and took off again

[AMPS]

Sounds like a blatant attempt at a fit-up to me and I'd be writing a letter to the Police Complaints Authority. Jerk-off cops like that will think nothing of pinging even the innocent just to get their quota up, anybody less assertive than you Lou would now be a "speeding driver" statistic and a source of revenue. Hopefully you got his police number and you can bust the basstid. Just cut and paste your post Lou, should do the job.

No, the new placid me believes that his karma will get him.
Lou

[AMPS]

1. maybe he was bored

2. maybe he knew who you were

3. maybe he didn't like harleys

4. maybe he was testing out his new lights

5. maybe he knew who you were

Knew me? Riding a new, yellow Harley?
Right that's it. The Pleece have a mole at AMPS, I'll hunt him down like the cur he is
Lou

[Blakamin]

And, maybe they'll pull my bike over and ask "is this your bike" to the rider, and it won't be, and they'll save my bike being stolen :sweatdrop
Ya think the thief would stop?????? you think he'd say "No sir, I just stole this bike from down the road, nice innit?" :lol:

[SuperDave]

Ya think the thief would stop?????? you think he'd say "No sir, I just stole this bike from down the road, nice innit?" :lol:


Yeah, I was thinking just the same thing. It's just like airport security when they ask you if you have any dangerous items in your luggage. What a way to detect possible terrorists. "Yes, actually I have explosives in my bag, do those count?" I'm sure the terrorist would be stupid enough to answer truthfully. :laugh:

[spudchucka]

So, if he knew that, why the f#*k did he stop me.
My bind is moggled.
Maybe he's read this forum and was just fuckin with ya!

[Paul in NZ]

Them Be eM UU's sure have funny switch gear so perhaps he was reaching for the indicator and suddenly all the pretty lights and shit came on so he had to pull you over to cover up his little blunder....

You know, like when you go to turn a corner in a Ford and the wipers come on so you squirt a bit of washer fluid to make it look like you are cleaning the windscreen.

Paul N

[Kwaka-Kid]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by marty
1. maybe he knew who you were
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Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Bykey Cop
Maybe it was just an excuse to not give you a ticket.?
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Its funny how instantly everybody is so fast to take the opportunity to bad mouth a cop/put a PCA in.

[Jackrat]

Maybe he thought you looked like a mug.
I hear it works quite often.
I had an MOT cop wave me down one day an try to tell me I was speeding.
It went like,You were speeding back there,Back where?Back there coming into town,How do you know?,I saw you,No ya' didn't an prove it if ya' reckon ya' can,Piss off.
So I pulled into the gas station an while I fueled up he pulled another bike an wrote the guy a ticket.So maybe this cop thought you were a mug like that guy.

[scumdog]

POLICE SUCK ,I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR PIGS IVE GONE THRU THIS KINDA SHIT ALL THE TIME. IVE BEEN TO COURT TWICE AND WON TWICE.

I know what you mean, I've been to court 55 times and won 55 times!!! :msn-wink:

Of course, the loser that was defending the case each time was not so impressed! :blah: :killingme :killingme :killingme

[MSTRS]

THey don't export these drongos south of the Bombays,. do they??!! :sweatdrop

[marty]

POLICE SUCK ,I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR PIGS IVE GONE THRU THIS KINDA SHIT ALL THE TIME. IVE BEEN TO COURT TWICE AND WON TWICE.yeah and you've been 'robbed' 3 times and been given the :whocares: each time. so far, the cops are winning.

[Jackrat]

POLICE SUCK ,I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR PIGS IVE GONE THRU THIS KINDA SHIT ALL THE TIME. IVE BEEN TO COURT TWICE AND WON TWICE.

Yeah sure you have.
No mate I belive you I really do,now just go an have a nice lay down :killingme

[6Chris6]

Then he says that he'd only picked up his Beemer 24 hours before and it did not have a certificate of accuracy for the speedo and he wasn't sure that it was accurate and would not issue a notice for speeding.
.

So lets recap shall we.

A bike cop pulls you over
You argue (sp) with said bike cop
You ride away minus ticket

I'd consider yourself f*kn lucky myself, they have always got the power to make life very difficult for you (read expensive).
And as for the rest of you band-wagon-jumpers-on get a life FFS.

And BTW If i was reading from this forum for the first time I'd think what a whinging pack of jumped up pricks these bikers are, with all these "rants" read (whinging and moaning).
Don't get me wrong some are justified.

But this one isn't

[NodMan]

Luigi mate...as a few others have suggested the Plod knew you...cant comment on the mole at AMPS...but be careful Mr Truman everybody has a part to pay in this show...


I spy Mr Motorbike Plod, flouro vest and white helmet gleaming, gaining on me about 500-600 metres behind. So, being the law-abiding citizen that I am, I check the speedo, 80 k's on the dot, as it has been for ages. Mr Plod tucks in behind and I'm thinking that he's going to nail the Maserati beside me.
The Plod thinks your estimation of distance is very inaccurate and how would he be stopping the Maserati which was on a separate road/bridge alongside yourself even after its alledged exhibition back at fanshawe Street on ramp?


Being a little perplexed, I hop off, open my helmet, and he says he's checked me at 95km/h on the bridge. Now I've heard about fit-ups, but this is the first time I've had it happen to me.
Plod disputes any fit up and rightly or wrongly used discretion when he was offered a plausible explanation and Plod not having the certification document available at that time...recent information confirms that the digial readout was in fact accurate


So I say that I was doing 80 k's, he says that I should get my speedo checked. I say that we don't do that with new bikes, we rely on the factory to make sure the speedos don't read slow.
The advice offered by Plod was in fact based on experience of the inaccuracy of a number of NEW non jap motorcycles.


He then asks why I hit the horn back at the Khyber Pass off-ramp. ( I blasted an old woman who thought she should stop in the middle lane because there was a Pleece car stopped on the shoulder).
Plods question regarding the use of your emergency warning device was in fact to determine whether the matter was so serious that you may wish to complain about the old womans driving...but no complaint was forthcoming.


I said (very politely) that I disputed in the strongest terms that I was speeding. Then he says that he'd only picked up his Beemer 24 hours before and it did not have a certificate of accuracy for the speedo and he wasn't sure that it was accurate and would not issue a notice for speeding.
Plod states that the beemer was actually one of several loaners he has had recently and, as well as the radio being jammed on 1ZB, it had suffered an electrical fault earlier in the day and until Plod saw a Certificate of Accuracy he was willing to offer a warning on this occassion.


So, if he knew that, why the f#*k did he stop me.
My bind is moggled.
Luigi mate Plod thinks that you never know when Big Brother is watching you.

Ride safe mate.

[jrandom]

Ahem.

Was it *you*, Noddy, or did you just canvass the locals on your lunchbreak?

[MikeL]

I find this a bit scary.

Could I ask that those who know me personally refrain from divulging any details that might identify me or my motorcycles in such a way that certain persons browsing this forum might be tempted to pay more than passing attention to said bikes if they should happen to see them on the road in the course of their duties...

I hope I have made myself clear.

Thank you.

:Oops: how do I get rid of this avatar thingy??

[jrandom]

You know, I live in perpetual fear of being pulled over by Nodman, seeing as he hunts the same grounds I fearfully roam at just ever-so-slightly over the speed limit every day. It'd just be so... embarrassing.

Looks like Lou might have caught some karma on his dogma...

[riffer]

You know, I live in perpetual fear of being pulled over by Nodman...


Well if you did, I'm sure you would make damn sure you got your facts ABSOLUTELY correct before you posted here... :msn-wink:

[AMPS]

Interesting, Nodman. Your knowledge of the matter is also bind-moggling. However, the Maser was in the lane next to me. He and several other cars, both in front and behind, were travelling at the same speed. maybe all their speedos were 15 km/h out too.
I'm not worried, at least it turned out to not be a fit-up. I still haven't been stopped on the Bandit yet. (Touch wood)
Lou

[marty]

good work mole man - he doesn't suspect a thing. and AMPS - $39k for a V-rod? bloody hell. i could buy a Rocket and a V-twin thingie for that

[Kwaka-Kid]

Mr Plod tucks in behind and I'm thinking that he's going to nail the Maserati beside me that tested the G forces while merging at Fanshaw St.
So if the maser back at fanshaw really did Test the G forces... how were u still beside him coming over the bridge?

surely the testing of G's would of sent him some distance ahead no?


oh and

I'm not worried, at least it turned out to not be a fit-up.Well by the looks of things thats all the thanks some poor law enforcement officer gets after he had such a harsh accusation put against him, enough to create a band wagon big enough for a load of unknowing KB'ers to jump on and damn near want the cop hung!

And i wanted to be a motorcycle cop? makes me sick. I hope the officer can retrospectivly issue the bloody ticket! :angry2:

cut me deep.

[marty]

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin
I'm not worried, at least it turned out to not be a fit-up.

ah yes but now he's got your number...do you have his?

[igor]

Luigi mate...as a few others have suggested the Plod knew you...cant comment on the mole at AMPS...but be careful Mr Truman everybody has a part to pay in this show...


The Plod thinks your estimation of distance is very inaccurate and how would he be stopping the Maserati which was on a separate road/bridge alongside yourself even after its alledged exhibition back at fanshawe Street on ramp?


Plod disputes any fit up and rightly or wrongly used discretion when he was offered a plausible explanation and Plod not having the certification document available at that time...recent information confirms that the digial readout was in fact accurate


The advice offered by Plod was in fact based on experience of the inaccuracy of a number of NEW non jap motorcycles.


Plods question regarding the use of your emergency warning device was in fact to determine whether the matter was so serious that you may wish to complain about the old womans driving...but no complaint was forthcoming.


Plod states that the beemer was actually one of several loaners he has had recently and, as well as the radio being jammed on 1ZB, it had suffered an electrical fault earlier in the day and until Plod saw a Certificate of Accuracy he was willing to offer a warning on this occassion.


Luigi mate Plod thinks that you never know when Big Brother is watching you.

Ride safe mate.

keep the good work up Noddy.

old Louie is easier to wind up the a solar powered clock.

bloody ex ACC cops all the same

lucky for Louie the lettle red haired fella Nightingale still ant workin in Jaffaland or he would really make his life a misery hahahaha

[speedpro]

This seems like a good thread to just mention that I have seen an unusual number of motorcyclists pulled over by bike riding HP guy this week. All in reasonably heavy traffic and I'm guessing for "overtaking when prohibited". What is the view of the traffic officers on this forum regarding this. The location for this infringement is either the NW or southern motorways here in AK and around peak traffic times and therefore slow moving heavy traffic. I'm contemplating getting another bike to do the commute next year once the schools go back, it'll save me an hour or so every day, but only if I commit the abovementioned offence.

My personal view is that there seems to be only one motorcycle HP guy who issues tickets to commuting motorcyclists for this offence.

[igor]

My personal view is that there seems to be only one motorcycle HP guy who issues tickets to commuting motorcyclists for this offence.

yeah that guy would book his son riding a bike if he owned one, probably does and probably hass booked him :killingme

[igor]

yeah that guy would book his son riding a bike if he owned one, probably does and probably hass booked him :killingme

hey nod looks just like u

[Kwaka-Kid]

that guy would book his son riding a bike
Nah i was actually let off with a warning very luckily enough.


Anyway the rule in very basic is so long as you stay on the right hand side of a car in the same lane your good, soon as u cross that white line and are going passed hte left hand side of a car in the same lane (undertaking) your bad.

[igor]

Nah i was actually let off with a warning very luckily enough.


Anyway the rule in very basic is so long as you stay on the right hand side of a car in the same lane your good, soon as u cross that white line and are going passed hte left hand side of a car in the same lane (undertaking) your bad.

to put up his nu avator

[scumdog]

Amazing huh? - Cop pulls KBer over, issues ticket = wanker
Cop pulls KBer over, warns/does nothing = wanker

Therefore win/win for KBer? WTF

[igor]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-19919894.htm

[Two Smoker]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-19919894.htm
I doubt if its got ALL original parts.... Due to the MOT thrashing the hell out of them and constantly having to get new parts lol..... There is a guy in Auckland (forgotten his name) that collects MOT bikes....

[igor]

I doubt if its got ALL original parts.... Due to the MOT thrashing the hell out of them and constantly having to get new parts lol..... There is a guy in Auckland (forgotten his name) that collects MOT bikes....

to me original parts mean parts that were meant to be on bike weather from nu or replaced. i rode one of these and couldn't blow the mongrel up.

the guy that collects im in jaffaville, u must mean "rotton AL" who lives out westirland up in them there hills, top bloke

[AMPS]

Amazing huh? - Cop pulls KBer over, issues ticket = wanker
Cop pulls KBer over, warns/does nothing = wanker

Therefore win/win for KBer? WTF

I never accused him of being a wanker, I would have if he wrote the ticket though. (And worse). I wondered why he bothered at all if he knew his speedo didn't have a certificate of accuracy. How many tickets would he have written without it, if any, I wonder? How many people would have just shut up and paid up?
For the answer to these and other questions don't ask me.
I'll just keep riding my yellow CBR 1000 rego 67 WRT in peace.
Lou

[igor]

the police are giving u better service than AMPS been giving me

i been in there 4 times and no one ever has spoken to me

maybe cause i drive a 4 wheel drive
clean cut
and don't look at Harleys

KTM 950 IMMMMMMM please

[Biff]

I'll just keep riding my yellow CBR 1000 rego 67 WRT in peace.
Lou

Thanks Lou - I was looking for a new rego for a CBR1000 I have in the garage that I stole last month. I'll just paint it yellow.......... :Pokey:

[Kwaka-Kid]

I never accused him of being a wanker

Nah your right there, ten points for that.

negative 100 points for the original post

:blah:

[Skunk]

:finger: :ride:

[ZorsT]

Amazing huh? - Cop pulls KBer over, issues ticket = wanker
Cop pulls KBer over, warns/does nothing = wanker

Therefore win/win for KBer? WTF

Dont take it the wrong way spud, but any cop that pulls someone over wanting to give a ticket = wanker
ANY OTHER COP (at any other time) = good guy. Simple

:Police: :Police: :Police:

Its just too bad the good ones get trapped in the sterotype

[spudchucka]

Dont take it the wrong way spud, but any cop that pulls someone over wanting to give a ticket = wanker
ANY OTHER COP (at any other time) = good guy. Simple

:Police: :Police: :Police:

Its just too bad the good ones get trapped in the sterotype
Firstly I think you are responding to scumdog's post not mine.

Secondly I don't quite get what you mean. If I spot someone committing a traffic offence and I stop them with the intention of writing them a ticket then that makes me a wanker? What about the wanker that was driving like a wanker and drew my attention in the first place?

[wari]

MAybe he haddta go 95k to catchup toya ...

ANd then gott con-fused about who was speeding ..

DUnno ... :spudwhat: ... justa thought ... :doobey:

:sunny: today init .. :yeah:

[sAsLEX]

How many people do the plods on here ticket for failing to keep left??? This is an offence is it not? and people failing to keep left causes innocent little lane splitters to "undertake" when they are pushed in to the left hand edge of the lane to their right. :no: :no:

[Motu]

surprised on kbers are bidding on this

I had to sell my scooter first - I had one unanswered question :moon:

I think wari's got it - he was watching his speedo alright,but caught the wrong guy speeding.

[igor]

surprised on kbers are bidding on this

I had to sell my scooter first - I had one unanswered question :moon:
.

so answer the mans question

[RiderInBlack]

Personally, I would just count my blessing. When I'm pulled over by a cop and ticketed for a meer 10-15KPH over, I try to remember all the times I could have got done for a lot more. I really doubt that you Lou have not done more than 95KPH over the Bridge before (I know I have just to stay with the traffic:innocent: ). Just roll with and be glad he didn't ticket you:cool2:

[2_SL0]

Firstly I think you are responding to scumdog's post not mine.

Secondly I don't quite get what you mean. If I spot someone committing a traffic offence and I stop them with the intention of writing them a ticket then that makes me a wanker? What about the wanker that was driving like a wanker and drew my attention in the first place?

Its simple Spud, we are all wankers.

[duckman]

Its simple Spud, we are all wankers.
I prefer "Self-indulgent, stress reliever" but todger tosser will do just fine .. Thanks :innocent:

[ZorsT]

Firstly I think you are responding to scumdog's post not mine.

Secondly I don't quite get what you mean. If I spot someone committing a traffic offence and I stop them with the intention of writing them a ticket then that makes me a wanker? What about the wanker that was driving like a wanker and drew my attention in the first place?

yeah, i was, sorry about that.

what i was ment to say is its too bad the good cops have to write tickets for traffic offences, because then they have to be wankers aswell.
If they didn't, it would be way eiser to say that all traffic cops are wankers, because then you wouldn't have to justify your views to the other cops who have to write traffic tickets (which makes them wankers)

Maybe cops are only wankers while (and soon after) they write tickets for traffic related stupidity??? - which makes traffic cops wankers more often.

did this make sence?

and yes, the other guy is a wanker for making you seem like a wanker

[ZorsT]

:doh: oops, i just realised that i called just about EVERYONE in NZ a wanker :o :Oops:

Shit, theres no way to win this.... i give up! :argh:

[scumdog]

How many people do the plods on here ticket for failing to keep left??? This is an offence is it not? and people failing to keep left causes innocent little lane splitters to "undertake" when they are pushed in to the left hand edge of the lane to their right. :no: :no:
We don't got no lanes down here so 'failing to keep left' is not an issue - unless they do so to the extent they have a head-on or crash into the ditch on the wrong side of the road!!

[marty]

in which case a 'failing to keep left' is hardly gonna make it all better....

[RiderInBlack]

We don't got no lanes down here so 'failing to keep left' is not an issue - unless they do so to the extent they have a head-on or crash into the ditch on the wrong side of the road!!It is up here as we get a few drivers who prefer to drive on the right. I have also so seen two Comma-doors passing a que on the left, on the gravel and up the drain and then pulled in to the next Pub:gob: :gob: Old Mister Plod :Police: would not have been a wanker if one had been there to pull them over (I think a lot of us would have been thankful if he had).