Fisher & Paykel - fuc-ing shocking

[slimjim]

a buy new zealand made whiteware , yup not fisher an paykel not no more , anything for a higher buck to their stock holder's, fucking so cheap labour ,and even the thai's giving the prick's support money to transfer oversea's fucking shocking they reckon by laying off 430 worker's they'll saving 40 million a year yea right

[Virago]

A sad day for Dunedin.

Tamahine Knitwear going down as well.

[McJim]

a buy new zealand made whiteware , yup not fisher an paykel not no more , anything for a higher buck to their stock holder's, fucking so cheap labour ,and even the thai's giving the prick's support money to transfer oversea's fucking shocking they reckon by laying off 430 worker's they'll saving 40 million a year yea right

Yeah - they shoulda just told the shareholders to go f*ck themselves so they (the shareholders) would pull all the money out of the company so it could go bust completely and cost thousands of jobs instead.....yeah.

[scumdog]

On a side issue; as an ex-Fortex worker I know how they feel...it will rip their guts out.
But they will survive.

NZ manufacturing is going down the tubes as overseas offers cheaper wage costs.

[Usarka]

And the exchange rates are so high making it hard to sell overseas. You can only sell so many appliances to a 4 million person economy......

Sad for the workers and the country alright.

[MIXONE]

Buy New Zealand Made.Tuis.
I had to phone F&P call centre last week.I couldn't understand why the lady on the other end didn't know where I was calling from.Then she told me the cc is in Australia.WTF
This is going to be the norm from now on.Thanks Labour for the "Free Trade Agreement"

[homer]

yeah i agree its bull shit
ya get told to buy nz made ,
and all for what

what a fucken waste of doing anything at all for this shit hole ,
why dont we all , every person go buy a plane ticket to aussie .

[homer]

On a side issue; as an ex-Fortex worker I know how they feel...it will rip their guts out.
But they will survive.

NZ manufacturing is going down the tubes as overseas offers cheaper wage costs.

not just the labour but the cost of shipping as well

[MIXONE]

yeah i agree its bull shit
ya get told to buy nz made ,
and all for what

what a fucken waste of doing anything at all for this shit hole ,
why dont we all , every person go buy a plane ticket to aussie .

And will the last person to board the plane please turn the lights off first.

[Toaster]

Buy "New Zealand designed"... with a free mexican rug.

[homer]

or you could do a re-run of the good night kiwi as the last person flys out .

[merv]

The other one today is ANZ bank outsourcing 500 jobs to Bangalore - bummer.

Weird thing was I'm on my daily commute on the train this morning and a dude sits next to me and starts going through his papers and annotating them and sure enough I see at a glance its all about the Bangalore thing. I can't believe the stuff you see on the train because people seem to act like they are in a private office but there you are jammed together in seats that only fit two midgets my size and the papers are right in front of your face.

F&P workers complained about hearing it on the radio first - seems bosses these days aren't very caring or careful at all.

[Hitcher]

The Bloody Labour Gummint should pay them the subsidy they were going to pay the All Blacks. Or pass a law making F&P and all other manufacturers stay in New Zealand until they go bust. Makes sense.

[homer]

not good a merv

[sugilite]

I stopped buying Fisher & Paykel gear a few years back, new fridge had issues, washing machine had issues, and dish Draw has 3 freaking things wrong with it. Blardy sux for the workers, and yeah, the bosses don't give a flying fuck, hence the 'radio announcement' Gutless shitheads :oi-grr:

[Swoop]

Buy "New Zealand designed"... with a free mexican rug.
Stuff that. A free sombrero or nothing!:clap:
Luckily in a few years time, NZ will be a cheap labour source and we will be attracting work from (other?) third world countries.:wacko:

I wonder if you will be able to get a free squishy from ANZ/National bank soon...?

[pete376403]

Not the directors fault - they are obliged (by law, I think) to get the best possible return for the shareholders. NZ minimum labour rate is about $12/hr. Chine, thailand, etc, if they have a minimum rate at all, is going to be about $1or less an hour, and the products will be made nearly as well as they are here. Likewise Mexico.
But Italy? surely the labour rate there is pretty high, protected as it is by all the EU regulations.

[MisterD]

So you expect F&P to compete with all the big names who are already manufacturing in cheapo places, and keep building here?

What you would buy? Thai-built, NZ designed or US designed Mexico built?

[homer]

Not the directors fault - they are obliged (by law, I think) to get the best possible return for the shareholders. NZ minimum labour rate is about $12/hr. Chine, thailand, etc, if they have a minimum rate at all, is going to be about $1or less an hour, and the products will be made nearly as well as they are here. Likewise Mexico.
But Italy? surely the labour rate there is pretty high, protected as it is by all the EU regulations.

yeah the labour may be more in tialy , but the cost of the shipping may be stuff all

[rainman]

Buy New Zealand Made.Tuis.
...
Thanks Labour for the "Free Trade Agreement"

Like National would have done any different - both large parties think the China FTA is a great idea, remember.
Don't mind me, I'm an honorary member of the Balance Police.

Buy NZ Made is the legacy of Rod Donald, and is, what's the word, aspirational. Also known as A Bloody Good Idea, although possibly a little optimistic.

Today's job losses are just the fruit of globalisation, and continued population growth, coupled with (yes, still) cheap oil. For as long as you can get a(nother) wage slave in a foreign sweatshop to work for two bowls of rice and a rusty farthing a day, while making a product/delivering a service that's, well, close to the same quality, and it doesn't cost that much to ship lots of them about the place, businesses will do it. Because all they value is money, not people's lives.

So much for the free market dream.

Might be worth having a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e51JnJPPY0E).

[terbang]

I'l be in quick before Finn adds his $.50 worth. As an investor in various parts of the world I can certainly understand the need to make a profit. However as a worker, who has lost his job twice, I can also understand the hardship that those workers are going through. Shareholders take risks in companies when they invest money in them just as workers also take risks by investing their time and careers into a company. If it goes wrong the investor is out of pocket and any smart one wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket, so the whole portfolio isn't lost. On the other hand the worker is out of a job, money and often in for a career change. It is a little hard for a worker to "spread their risk" so they tend to lose all of their investment. So the workers are personally the biggest losers here and yet they seem to be seen and treated as an easily disposed of commodity when the share holders bottom line isn't met. Often this is done with little more than a wry grin (as the CEO of F&P did tonight on Campbel Live) along with a shrug of the shoulders as if there was nothing that could be done with a company that last year posted a profit..! It was nothing short of a silky shafting by a smiling knife. I'm also with Hitcher on this one.
Us New Zealanders just seem to be rapidly becoming tennants in our own country.

[Ixion]

Yeah - they shoulda just told the shareholders to go f*ck themselves so they (the shareholders) would pull all the money out of the company so it could go bust completely and cost thousands of jobs instead.....yeah.


So, why aren't you on a Hyosung then? (not a very good analogy, since Hyosung are not actually bad quality. But none of the Chinese manufacturers make a 650 V twin)

Henceforth F&P will just be another brand of cheap Asian crap. Like the chinese motorcycles. Many people here buy them? Why not? after all, they're made with cheap labour?

F&P have elected to abandon the "Why should you buy F&P. Because it's good quality, NZ made ", and opt for "Why should you buy F&P? because it's cheap".

Trouble is , whe n your only market differentiator is "we're cheap", there's always going to be someone in a short while will be able to say "we're cheaper". Like those chinese bikes .

And , like the chinese bikes, a lot of people will elect not to buy F&P any more. Because there's another brand of cheap chinese crap that's $10 cheaper, and when the only distinguisher is cheapness, one buys the cheapest cheapness.

The balance sheets of companies like Fisher & Paykel always include an entry for the value of the brands and goodwill. Usually in the tens of millions (anyone know a figure ?) . I reckon that F&P wrote all that off today.

Good for the investors in the short term? Probably. But I wouldn't care to be leaving a parcel of F&P shares to grandchildren. In effect the directors have elected tro asset strip the company. Ten years time and it'll be gone

'

[HenryDorsetCase]

a buy new zealand made whiteware , yup not fisher an paykel not no more , anything for a higher buck to their stock holder's, fucking so cheap labour ,and even the thai's giving the prick's support money to transfer oversea's fucking shocking they reckon by laying off 430 worker's they'll saving 40 million a year yea right

ever think that by culling the new zealand manufacturing, that it might allow the company to survive the next five years, preserving SOME value to the shareholders, whereas if they did nothing the whole company would likely go down the shitter?

Personally I am surprised that its taken as long as this to close their manufacturing facilities in NZ. F & P Healthcare stuff (medical and surgical equipment) has been made offshore for years and is a world leader in its niche markets.

The directors of these companies, in addition to facing some personal liability, or at least the potential of it if they get it too wrong (Bridgecorp) are not stupid, are at least as patriotic as anyone reading this thread, and probably lost a lot of sleep about the decision they inevitably had to make.

Bet you're all winging about F & P while watching your Chinese made plasma screen, and sitting scratching your arses on your Korean made couch, with your feet up on your delightful Thai made wife or coffeetable.

Get a bloody clue!

[stanko]

I think the Unions could have done better for everyone here, instead of just marching to Labours tune they should be lobbying the Govt for the kinds of deals that keep manufacturers happy. In the last 9 long years what has been done to improve the manufacturing sector, SFA. EPMPU hasnt had much to say. EMPU should be working for the workers not propping up labour and its weak , shallow on most things especially experience ministers.
If mexico can offer manufacturers incentives , then to level the field we should do the same. I cant blame F&P for their actions they want to be in business 10 , 20 , 30 years from now, playing duelling banjos in Mosgeil isnt going to assure them of that

[terbang]

Oh cool, does that mean we (NZers) are going to get some cheaper F&P whiteware?

[terbang]

Get a bloody clue!
Bit over the top with the aggro there mate...

[rainman]

Bet you're all winging about F & P while watching your Chinese made plasma screen, and sitting scratching your arses on your Korean made couch, with your feet up on your delightful Thai made wife or coffeetable.

Get a bloody clue!

Some valid points there (although I don't have a plasma or a Thai wife or coffeetable), but what's the end game? We keep shifting manufacturing capability somewhere cheaper, big race to the bottom, and then what?

[scumdog]

Personally I am surprised that its taken as long as this to close their manufacturing facilities in NZ. F & P Healthcare stuff (medical and surgical equipment) has been made

Bet you're all winging about F & P while watching your Chinese made plasma screen, and sitting scratching your arses on your Korean made couch, with your feet up on your delightful Thai made wife or coffeetable.

Get a bloody clue!

I was surprised MORE NZ manufacturing companies haven't closed down - how can they compete when the cheap overseas wages can make the same profit??

BTW: Should somebody discover that milk causes Alzhiemers or similar Kiwiland would be in the crap right up to it's little tiki eyeball, talk about starting to put all ones eggs in the basket....

[HenryDorsetCase]

I think the Unions could have done better for everyone here, instead of just marching to Labours tune they should be lobbying the Govt for the kinds of deals that keep manufacturers happy. In the last 9 long years what has been done to improve the manufacturing sector, SFA. EPMPU hasnt had much to say. EMPU should be working for the workers not propping up labour and its weak , shallow on most things especially experience ministers.
If mexico can offer manufacturers incentives , then to level the field we should do the same. I cant blame F&P for their actions they want to be in business 10 , 20 , 30 years from now, playing duelling banjos in Mosgeil isnt going to assure them of that

No, no, and especially no.

HOW could the unions have done better? WHAT could they have done specifically? Isnt a union now as state recognised organisation whose job it is is to obtain better wages and conditions for its members. Surely then it could be argued that the unions have been very successful, to the point in fact where their success impinged on the ability of the company to continue. yes, infinite expansion in a closed system, what is that, oh yes. Cancer. Thats it, unions are cancer.

And how you can say that after what, 10 years in gummint that Labour lacks experienced ministers is very strange indeed. Particularly in industrial relations and labour they have very experienced people there.

[Ixion]

Made-in-China.com lists 1999 chinese refrigerator manufacturers. Now, it's 2000.

I'd be quite certain that at least one , probably hundreds of the other 1999 can undercut F&P. And someone will organise importing them.

F&P have traded on the loyalty of Kiwis to the local boy for years. Now, that's gone. They're no different to Hangzhou Kator Foreign Trade Ltd or Jinan Bestar INC. Long term, they've signed the company death warrant.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Some valid points there (although I don't have a plasma or a Thai wife or coffeetable), but what's the end game? We keep shifting manufacturing capability somewhere cheaper, big race to the bottom, and then what?

OK, my view is that the new economy is one based on ideas. Like Facebook say, or google. billion dollar corporations which didnt exist fifteen years ago (or even five!). who in the hell cares where the routers or servers or screens are made, sure they're made somewhere, they're outsourced to where it is cheapest to manufacture them. Twenty years ago that was Japan, now its China, in twenty years it might be an automatic factory crawling along the seabottom which mines its own ores, recycles its own waste, and shoots finished products out a railgun mounted on its bum to the waiting consumers of the world.

It doesnt matter. The big issue is where the ideas that drive that next economy come from. Possibly its a numbers game. Now you should be worried because there are more Chinese/Indians on the planet than everyone else so statistically they should start producing more of the next best ideas than anyone else.

here is an interesting and related fact: the most expensive piece of dirt on the planet sold last year. $100M USD. Where was it? Downtown Mumbai.

[Burrt Badger]

F & P's move is just the start. WHY would you want to be be an employer in NZ, let alone try to make stuff to export. We have a Government that rapes the workers and rewards the shirkers. They also punish employers much more harshly than they do criminals. Compliance costs are phenominal, which you now add Kiwisaver and the time taken for that and the effective wage rise given to staff who enrol, in it.
As a person who owns a business, a home and a holiday bach, I pay, Company tax, PAYE(wife and I), FBT (wife and I) GST on everything we buy, Rates (3 lots, for business, home and bach) and the realted Ware rates etc, With holding tax ( tax on interest earnt on savings which you have already paid tax on) ACC, Petrol taxes, etc etc.
Where is the economic direction for New Zealand. There is none, because the encumbents dont have a clue and never have had and are so totally corrupted by power and the need to retain it, that they spend more time trying to come up with pathetic character assassinations of the leader of the opposition than they do administering a country in crisis. I dont care who leads the country, as long as they providev a strong economic base, direction and work on retaining the major employers we still have, because very shortly we will ALL have to work the land as a third world country because there will bne no industry, or employers left.

[ynot slow]

Get a decent accountant re kiwisaver scheme.Employers get tax credits if they match employees contributions to it.Yep it appears staff get a 4% rise,but it is taken from our existing wages,not added to them,and it must be a good idea for the company to add their 4% to match mine.Our company did just that when kiwisaver came into force,my 4% plus their 4%.It isn't compulsery to do so,they could do it 1% per year,but the tax credits make it worthwhile.

[Ocean1]

It's not just about labour costs, cheap labour ain't worth the discounted price if you can't integrate your business with the local social environment. I've seen one of the most prolific and historically savvy Japanese manufacturers fail abysmally in Malaysia simply because their methodologies weren’t compatible with the local culture.

The other big motivator to emigrate manufacturing capacity is compliance costs. They’re very difficult to quantify but they represent a very real disadvantage for doing business in NZ. Comparatively high labour costs has been a feature of the NZ landscape for decades, offset, (I like to think) by Kiwi innovation, allowing NZ manufacturing to survive. It’s the paper war that got them in the end, they simply can’t live in such a toxic environment.

We still have the primary producers, dairy and forestry products, they can’t move, they’re tied to their materials source, that’s why they’re all that’s left here. It’s not enough to keep the country solvent at our current std of living though, noticed what milk and building materials cost have been doing lately?

[rainman]

OK, my view is that the new economy is one based on ideas. Like Facebook say, or google. billion dollar corporations which didnt exist fifteen years ago (or even five!). who in the hell cares where the routers or servers or screens are made, sure they're made somewhere, they're outsourced to where it is cheapest to manufacture them.

Yeah, we'll just have all the ideas, and get Other People Far Away to do all the hard work implementing them, that'll work. Mining the raw materials, processing them into tangible products of our design. But wait, they'll need machines, and factories, and industrial processes... and those are ideas. Can't have that, we'll have to sell them our manufacturing ideas. Except we won't have any because they'll have all the, you know, actual experience. Maybe we can sell them entertainment. The next thing after Bebo! (Or did someone do that already and Bebo is like, so last week...?)

And pity those among us who aren't big on designing then next big new Web 3.0 thang. They'll just lose their jobs and go on a benefit, damn bludgers.

Google has made a very small number of people obscenely rich, with wealth way beyond their needs. How do you think that could possibly work as a "new economy".

This stuff is important. Think about it.

[firefighter]

The Bloody Labour Gummint should pay them the subsidy they were going to pay the All Blacks. Or pass a law making F&P and all other manufacturers stay in New Zealand until they go bust. Makes sense.

exactly..........

[merv]

Made-in-China.com lists 1999 chinese refrigerator manufacturers. Now, it's 2000.

I'd be quite certain that at least one , probably hundreds of the other 1999 can undercut F&P. And someone will organise importing them.


You've got a fixation on China but this one is going to Mexico - comment was made on the news about how there are no tarrifs for them to import the materials they need from USA to make stuff there and how there are no tarrifs on them to export the finished stuff to USA.

F&P are also shutting plants in California and Brisbane with large layoffs to do the Mexico thing.

[Ixion]

China, Mexico, is all the same. Cheap peon labour.

I'm just referencing China cos info on them is a lot easier to find (in English) on the web.

Reckon Mexico built is going to be any better than China built ?

End result its still the same, F&P have sold out and are no longer a NZ company.

Every bit of whiteware in our house is F&P. Most people I know, the same. Not bought because F&P were $x cheaper, but because F&P were the Kiwi company. Now, they've kicked that back in the faces of Kiwis.

So, why should I think that a Mexican fridge is any better than a Chinese one ? Actually, I'd say the chinese one is probably a better bet.

(Tis not just Kiwis that F&P have shafted of course, Aussies are hit too, and they are not happy)

Somebody asked what unions could do. Well, a load out ban on the wharves on any F&P foreign made goods would be a start. Not going to sell NZ made? The you won't sell anything .Picket lines on stores selling F&P products would be a good follow up.

That's what we would have done when I was in the union movement. Simpering wimps nowdays won;t be up for that though

[Rogue]

It all has to do with MONEY, MONEY and MORE MONEY
These firms that go overseas are not interested in looking after their staff their focus is on making MONEY for their share holders :spanking:
GOOD ON YA SWAZI FOR STAYING IN NZ :clap: wish there were more companies like you!!

[SixPackBack]

A few points:

N.Z is shit house for manufacturing, we will not 'live or die' because of manufacturing. [or a lack of]
Wages are to expensive.
Labour resources poor in the extreme.
Individuals and companies put money into shares to make more money, not to see it pissed down the gurgler.
China can and does manufacture quality product.
N.Z is very good at R&D. Why not complete that here and let labour rich countries do what they do best-produce our product from our intelectual property.
Chill out. N.Z has never known a period of time with less unemployment and unless you're a total fuckwit [Skidmark] finding suitable employment will be a straight forward proposition.

[bikemike]

Google has made a very small number of people obscenely rich, with wealth way beyond their needs. How do you think that could possibly work as a "new economy".

This stuff is important. Think about it.

Spot on Rainman. These decisions based around profitability now, may seem inevitable and so on, and I agree with points you and Dorset make, but those decisions are being made so much on Financial and Energy infrastructures and economics continuing on essentially the same co-dependent model. I don't see that being so for too long now...
How long can we continue to propagate the buy cheap and replace model of consumption. How soon before quality and durability become paramount to any investment?
How long will we be able to afford shipping stuff hither and thither that needs not be?
What are the triggers that would make ours a low (average) wage economy compared to the booming manufacturing zones?

Still, I haven't been buying F&P anyway, as I perceive its quality as pretty shite already - offshoring seems inevitable in that race to the bottom for them. Some have offered this as a Hobson's choice in terms of survivability for the company but it is only that the company wanted to grow to be so big and had to compete on price and sacrifice quality to get absolute market share that it finds itself in this position. Making and selling fewer and better quality goods would also have been an option for the survivability of the company. Sacrificing market share and growth for quality and sustainability.

We run into this problem more and more here as with 4M heads, there's often no local production at an acceptable quality / energy efficiency.

Do they still insist on exclusive retail floor brand presence?

[JimO]

there has been a rumour around dunedin regarding FnP shutting down for over a year.

And regarding outsourcing the mighty Toyota Hilux is now made in Thailand

[Ixion]

Spot on Rainman. These decisions based around profitability now, may seem inevitable and so on, and I agree with points you and Dorset make, but those decisions are being made so much on Financial and Energy infrastructures and economics continuing on essentially the same co-dependent model. I don't see that being so for too long now...
How long can we continue to propagate the buy cheap and replace model of consumption. How soon before quality and durability become paramount to any investment?
How long will we be able to afford shipping stuff hither and thither that needs not be?
What are the triggers that would make ours a low (average) wage economy compared to the booming manufacturing zones?

Still, I haven't been buying F&P anyway, as I perceive its quality as pretty shite already - offshoring seems inevitable in that race to the bottom for them. Some have offered this as a Hobson's choice in terms of survivability for the company but it is only that the company wanted to grow to be so big and had to compete on price and sacrifice quality to get absolute market share that it finds itself in this position. Making and selling fewer and better quality goods would also have been an option for the survivability of the company. Sacrificing market share and growth for quality and sustainability.

We run into this problem more and more here as with 4M heads, there's often no local production at an acceptable quality / energy efficiency.

Do they still insist on exclusive retail floor brand presence?

Very good points . (though I hastily denonunce any Greenie implications).

Chasing cheap labour is very much yesterday's economy. The economy of the future is not going to be around mass production and shaving point 0.001 of a cent off the labour cost, it's going to be about adapability, sustainability (shut up you Greenies, it wasn't your idea and it's not greenie anyway), and versatility.

20th century economics was encapsulated by Henry Ford "You can have any color you want so long a s it's black). The economics of the 21st century will be more about "This is Burger King , you can have it any way you want".

F&P have opted out of the 21st century. Thailand isn't going to give them smart manufacturing. It may give them cheap manufacturing for a year or two, but in the not far future (maybe even within my lifetime), cheap manufacture is going to mean diddly squat if the product is a dreg on the market and stuck somewhere where it can't economically be shipped from.

[Timber020]

F & P's move is just the start. WHY would you want to be be an employer in NZ, let alone try to make stuff to export. We have a Government that rapes the workers and rewards the shirkers. They also punish employers much more harshly than they do criminals. Compliance costs are phenominal, which you now add Kiwisaver and the time taken for that and the effective wage rise given to staff who enrol, in it.
As a person who owns a business, a home and a holiday bach, I pay, Company tax, PAYE(wife and I), FBT (wife and I) GST on everything we buy, Rates (3 lots, for business, home and bach) and the realted Ware rates etc, With holding tax ( tax on interest earnt on savings which you have already paid tax on) ACC, Petrol taxes, etc etc.
Where is the economic direction for New Zealand. There is none, because the encumbents dont have a clue and never have had and are so totally corrupted by power and the need to retain it, that they spend more time trying to come up with pathetic character assassinations of the leader of the opposition than they do administering a country in crisis. I dont care who leads the country, as long as they providev a strong economic base, direction and work on retaining the major employers we still have, because very shortly we will ALL have to work the land as a third world country because there will bne no industry, or employers left.

I have a mate who moved to the Uk and started a landscaping business. He hires 2 guys there, just like he did running a landscaping business here. He used to spend a couple hours a week doing paperwork, now he says he spends half a day a week dealing with the paperwork in the UK, and the tax is through the roof.
Nobody likes paying tax, or doing paperwork, but its the cost of running a business, as far as I have seen, its no better anywhere else worth living.

We cant expect companies like FP to stay while we flock to mitre ten mega for $1 screwdrivers or drive imported cars. We like cheap goods, we dont want to only get paid a dollar a day, we dont get our cake and eat it to.

[Ocean1]

A few points:

N.Z is shit house for manufacturing, we will not 'live or die' because of manufacturing. [or a lack of]
NZ is a shithouse environment for manufacturing. As for how important that is… ALL revenue can be traced to a manufacturing entity, if we’re not making anything then the secondary and tertiary services they employ will die too.
Wages are to expensive.
For the value returned, yup.
Labour resources poor in the extreme.
Yeah, the other reason China looks attractive, 4 times the output for around a tenth of the cost.
Individuals and companies put money into shares to make more money, not to see it pissed down the gurgler.
Yup, very few of them are charities, although a lot of businesses support their local communities well.
China can and does manufacture quality product.
And crap, same as most countries.
N.Z is very good at R&D. Why not complete that here and let labour rich countries do what they do best-produce our product from our intelectual property.
Yesss… many NZ companies have evolved into product development cells and done well for a time. A significant number of them are sold to large multi-nationals though, which is understandable. What I don’t understand fully is the fact that they often then don’t survive long. Perhaps it’s the cultural thing again.
Chill out. N.Z has never known a period of time with less unemployment and unless you're a total fuckwit [Skidmark] finding suitable employment will be a straight forward proposition.

Wonder how long all dem accountants, analysts, bureaucrats, barristers and colour consultants will last without their meal tickets…

[Finn]

a buy new zealand made whiteware , yup not fisher an paykel not no more , anything for a higher buck to their stock holder's, fucking so cheap labour ,and even the thai's giving the prick's support money to transfer oversea's fucking shocking they reckon by laying off 430 worker's they'll saving 40 million a year yea right

And this is F&P fault? Wake up man.

I was going to try and explain commerce 101 yet again but no doubt it will fall of dumb ears.

Stop thinking like a kiwi. It makes you look stupid.

[MisterD]

F & P Healthcare stuff (medical and surgical equipment) has been made offshore for years and is a world leader in its niche markets.

:confused: So those big buildings down on Highbrook with the "F&P Healthcare" signs out the front would be what?

[Swoop]

Made-in-China.com lists 1999 chinese refrigerator manufacturers. Now, it's 2000.

I'd be quite certain that at least one , probably hundreds of the other 1999 can undercut F&P. And someone will organise importing them.
The cost will be being associated with a country that dosen't have the best track record with environmental pollution/damage and other "collateral" areas.
The customer may take this into consideration when purchasing.

WHY would you want to be be an employer in NZ, let alone try to make stuff to export.
I think you need to talk to Finn's accountant...:whistle:

[Coldrider]

:confused: So those big buildings down on Highbrook with the "F&P Healthcare" signs out the front would be what?
A food and clothes bank and distribution centre locals.
Seriously though the Governmenmt has been trying to get manufacturing into more high tech high profit stuff than wool, crops & meat, and kiwis still get smashed.
As the chinese labour standard of living increases they will demand higher wages, and so the cycle will go on inflationary pressures in china. etc.
It would appear that kiwis would have to design and instigate technology and leave the manufacturing to cheaper labour countries, but how many kiwis are at that level.
Incidentially from May there is 15% tax credits for R & D for NZ companies.

[Brett]

As teh economic environment changes, businesses need to adapt. We live in a global economy. Free trade deal will see more of this occuring. We can't compete as manufacturers.

F&P are not that great. I just kitted my kitchen out with wicked Smeg stuff for not too much more.

[jim.cox]

I just kitted my kitchen out with wicked Smeg stuff

How could you buy stuff with a brandname like that?

Dont you watch "Red Dwarf"?

[ManDownUnder]

And this is F&P fault? Wake up man.

I was going to try and explain commerce 101 yet again but no doubt it will fall of dumb ears.

Stop thinking like a kiwi. It makes you look stupid.


:killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme



What he said!



:killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme

[Skyryder]

Come ANZAC Day and watch all the 'Lest We Forget' posts.

Fisher and Paykel and their apologists have already forgotton.


Skyryder

[Littleman]

Shhhh... Finn. Don't education the ignorant. The smart money is on F & P shares. Let the communist liberals wallow in their financial and intellectual poverty.

[Marmoot]

I was just waiting for any "because of the Free Trade Agreement" argument so I can flame it, but it seems the people here are much smarter than common NZ Herald readers already...

As a developed nation, NZers are expected to deal with much higher money, both in living expenses and also in wages/salary. The only industry that can accommodate these types of people are high tech industries, high-priced service industries, and niche industries. Common manufacturing industries are like water that dwells on the ground level and always shift to the lowest spot (i.e., lowest living cost, lowest cost, lowest level of countries).

Unless we want to get back to being a 3rd world country, we should look ahead and forget manufacturing. Focus on our high tech industries (IT), high-priced service industries (financials), and niche industries (boat building and dairy products) which cannot be replicated anywhere else.

Wake up and smell the future. Crying over spilt milk does not bring you new one, but getting off your butts and buy a bottle does!

[avgas]

Big bloody wow.
NZ companies not looking after NZ workers.
Here are the facts:
- F&P have been fighting not to more production offshore for 10 years, 5 years ago they announced that they would close plants down if efficiency was not increased or if the gubbermint stepped in to help them out. 2 years ago they announced that whiteware either had to move production or sell off (Westinghouse cued up). If they sold off everyone lost their jobs, move only half the people got fired. The moved to South America, not china.
- Importing has become more cost effective over the last 20 years, yet working in NZ has become more expensive (anyone notice the tax increase last pay check? it happened) - Kiwisaver has also contributed to this.
- Job security in NZ is like weather. 4 weeks and the whole shebang changes.
- How many ex-Navman people are here?

You owe NZ nothing and it owes you nothing. The government will sell your soul and tax your body given half the chance. Its the big bad world.

I feel true sorrow for those Mosgiel workers, as i do for the F&P management. But surprised i am not.

[Morcs]

We did most of F&Ps injection moulded product.

Now we have to try and recover $2m worth of annual business.

Cnuts.

[tri boy]

July last year I posted NZ was in for a bumpy ride.
It hasn't even touched any serious turbulence yet.
My other comment was to reduce debt, and get ready for 3yrs of tough times.
Anybody want to argue against this?
The dollar will eventually drop to historic/sensible levels, but only after the rough patch.
Best people learn how to plant a vegetable garden again.:pinch:

[SixPackBack]

We did most of F&Ps injection moulded product.

Now we have to try and recover $2m worth of annual business.

Cnuts.

Injection moulding/toolmaking will also be hit hard with the trade agreement. Get out while you can!

[MisterD]

We did most of F&Ps injection moulded product.

Now we have to try and recover $2m worth of annual business.



Ludowici then?

[HenryDorsetCase]

July last year I posted NZ was in for a bumpy ride.
It hasn't even touched any serious turbulence yet.
My other comment was to reduce debt, and get ready for 3yrs of tough times.
Anybody want to argue against this?
The dollar will eventually drop to historic/sensible levels, but only after the rough patch.
Best people learn how to plant a vegetable garden again.:pinch:

Concur. 10chars

[Coldrider]

We are on 3rd world wages, that is why house prices have to drop, we can't afford them, or so we are told, but what was the reason they went up when we could not afford them, as soon as there is a price anomally in a market, there will be a reaction.

[tri boy]

but what was the reason they went up when we could not afford them, as soon as there is a price anomally in a market, there will be a reaction.

Easily available cheap money via banks etc.(off shore money chasing our high interest rate), and greedy people pushing for large capital gain in the housing market. (can't blame them for that, but it really was a "house of cards" waiting for the first credit squeeze).
Well, the international squeeze is happening, and NZ is in a bad position to ride it out. As Gareth Morgan said a few months back when the Govt tryed to play the market with our dollars, "we're dog tucker now".
Damned if the interest rate stays up, (uncompetitive), but need it up for the foreigners to stay interested, (which helps keep us financially stable).

[Coldrider]

Easily available cheap money via banks etc.(off shore money chasing our high interest rate), and greedy people pushing for large capital gain in the housing market. (can't blame them for that, but it really was a "house of cards" waiting for the first credit squeeze).
Well, the international squeeze is happening, and NZ is in a bad position to ride it out. As Gareth Morgan said a few months back when the Govt tryed to play the market with our dollars, "we're dog tucker now".
Damned if the interest rate stays up, (uncompetitive), but need it up for the foreigners to stay interested, (which helps keep us financially stable).
Totally agree, i have built three new houses over this period and am on the pigs back all the way. The cycles have always been there since the US started to value their dollar after the 30's depression.
Nzer's have had expensive interest rates compared to the US but the problem those expensive interest rates halt investment in other productive areas of commerce. It is going to get to a point where the dollars of debt and cost of living is exponentially higher than the wages we earn, when about capitalism may fail.

[Morcs]

Injection moulding/toolmaking will also be hit hard with the trade agreement. Get out while you can!

Nah, its looking promising. Found out today, our 2 major competitors (owned by a big oversees corporation) have gone into recievership.

So we are going hard to poach the tools.

[SixPackBack]

Nah, its looking promising. Found out today, our 2 major competitors (owned by a big oversees corporation) have gone into recievership.

So we are going hard to poach the tools.

I would have thought that was an excellent indication of the creeping paralysis hitting the industry. Competitors are going bust, major toolmaking companies are in big trouble.........
Mint technologies have gone into recievership after purchasing Form plastics and Brian o Brian only 8 months ago-a strong indication not all is well!
Your optomism is admirable but not well placed.

[MisterD]

I would have thought that was an excellent indication of the creeping paralysis hitting the industry. Competitors are going bust, major toolmaking companies are in big trouble.........
Mint technologies have gone into recievership after purchasing Form plastics and Brian o Brian only 8 months ago-a strong indication not all is well!
Your optomism is admirable but not well placed.

However "Last man standing" is a valid business strategy....

[steved]

yeah i agree its bull shit
ya get told to buy nz made ,
and all for what

what a fucken waste of doing anything at all for this shit hole ,
why dont we all , every person go buy a plane ticket to aussie .
F&P closed a plant in Australia to. Should everyone leave Ozzie as well?

[Morcs]

I would have thought that was an excellent indication of the creeping paralysis hitting the industry. Competitors are going bust, major toolmaking companies are in big trouble.........
Mint technologies have gone into recievership after purchasing Form plastics and Brian o Brian only 8 months ago-a strong indication not all is well!
Your optomism is admirable but not well placed.

you seem to know a lot :)

what do you do?

[avgas]

July last year I posted NZ was in for a bumpy ride.
It hasn't even touched any serious turbulence yet.
My other comment was to reduce debt, and get ready for 3yrs of tough times.
Anybody want to argue against this?
The dollar will eventually drop to historic/sensible levels, but only after the rough patch.
Best people learn how to plant a vegetable garden again.:pinch:
"You have given out too much rep in the last 24 hours...."
Sorry man - but its how i feel as well.
But no - forget your dept lets save for your retirement. Thanks labour, but i'll get rid of the debt first.

[SixPackBack]

you seem to know a lot :)

what do you do?

Run an R&D department. However I am also a Toolmaker with a father/father in law/brother in law all Toolmakers.
Dude not all Plastics factories will fail, there will always be local product. Also given enough time the worm will once again turn resulting in the so called developing countries becoming expensive.
I remember 'Jap crap' in the 70's and look at them now!

[The Pastor]

nz is not good at manufacturing. so it should not do it.

[Toaster]

Stuff that. A free sombrero or nothing!:clap:
Luckily in a few years time, NZ will be a cheap labour source and we will be attracting work from (other?) third world countries.:wacko:

I wonder if you will be able to get a free squishy from ANZ/National bank soon...?

Yes I did hear the news... I am on leave at the moment.... maybe it will be a longer holiday than I thought!

MORE RIDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[homer]

F&P closed a plant in Australia to. Should everyone leave Ozzie as well?

maybe they just should , maybe
not as know as an australian brand though

[MD]

She may be a beautiful sexy woman but I still blame Aunty Helen and her best buddy Michael the arrogant prick - Where the hell are our tax breaks.
Ireland turned it's economy around with the help of..wait for it, tax cuts.

Thailand have offered F&P eight years totally free of any tax! Just pause for a second and try and absorb that benefit. Bloody Labour have spent years telling private individuals and businesses that we don't deserve, or need tax cuts. And besides, with tax cuts how can Labour continue to promote welfare as the preferred way of life.
Right now the Labour party are singing out of tune poorly altered Kenny Rogers songs to celebrate 430 more beneficiaries as a victory.

[rainman]

Focus on our high tech industries (IT) ... which cannot be replicated anywhere else.

I LOL'ed.

:)


Oh, were you serious?

[Ixion]

Interestingly, no one has questioned the moral aspects of F&Ps decision.

We are all familiar with the abuses and exploitation perpetuated by companies such as Nike (if you are not, read URGENTLY Naomi Klein's book 'No Logo' ).

Should we not, as Kiwis, feel some shame that a company as closely associated with NZ as F&P has elected to join such a sordid club?

EDIT OK, OK. Hardly anyone

[SixPackBack]

Interestingly, no one has questioned the moral aspects of F&Ps decision.

We are all familiar with the abuses and exploitation perpetuated by companies such as Nike (if you are not, read URGENTLY Naomi Klein's book 'No Logo' ).

Should we not, as Kiwis, feel some shame that a company as closely associated with NZ as F&P has elected to join such a sordid club?

Moral soul searching played no part in their desicion. Had production stayed in NZ F&P would have eventually gone under. Moving production overseas and keeping R&D here is a logical move, the only move they could make under the current political climate. F&P have in fact taken the moral high ground by protecting the intellectuals in the organisation, and just as importantly the share holders some of who are undoubtedly Kiwi mum and dads.

[Ixion]

Have they protected the shareholders, though, at least in the long term?

Perhaps the most valuable asset a company like F&P can have is their brand name

In our house we have the usual array of appliances . Fridge freezer washer dryer stove dishwasher. Every one of them F&P.

When the last one was replaced about a year ago (the old F&P Gentle Annie finally sprung a leak that forced me to admit that it was uneconomic to repair), there was no discussion or debate about what to replace it with. Mrs Ixion (whooping with delight) promptly shot around to Bond and Bond and bought a new F&P washing machine. The question of how much the F&P model cost compared to any others was never raised.

Hundreds of thousands of Kiwi families have done the same over the years. because F&P was the Kiwi brand, a trusted name

Now, they have written all that loyalty off. They are now just another brand of cheap Asian crap.

Mrs Ixion asked me tonight "When we replace the fridge (she has been angling about that for a while now), is there any reason now why we should buy Fisher and Paykel ?" . My answer, with which she concurred "None whatsoever, they are just another Asian brand of cheap and shoddy".

So now she is talking about Smeg. About which I know nothing, except that it sounds like a character from the Lord of the Rings. A year ago, the notion of buying a Smeg (whereever they are form) would not have crossed her mind. It would have been automaticaly F&P.

Repeat that scenario thousands of times over in the next few years, and tell me that the directors made the wisest decision for the shareholders.

It takes decades to build up a brand to the point where it becomes the recognised symbol of excellence. A single announcment to destroy that.

[SixPackBack]

Have they protected the shareholders, though, at least in the long term?

Perhaps the most valuable asset a company like F&P can have is their brand name

In our house we have the usual array of appliances . Fridge freezer washer dryer stove dishwasher. Every one of them F&P.

When the last one was replaced about a year ago (the old F&P Gentle Annie finally sprung a leak that forced me to admit that it was uneconomic to repair), there was no discussion or debate about what to replace it with. Mrs Ixion (whooping with delight) promptly shot around to Bond and Bond and bought a new F&P washing machine. The question of how much the F&P model cost compared to any others was never raised.

Hundreds of thousands of Kiwi families have done the same over the years. because F&P was the Kiwi brand, a trusted name

Now, they have written all that loyalty off. They are now just another brand of cheap Asian crap.

Mrs Ixion asked me tonight "When we replace the fridge (she has been angling about that for a while now), is there any reason now why we should buy Fisher and Paykel ?" . My answer, with which she concurred "None whatsoever, they are just another Asian brand of cheap and shoddy".

So now she is talking about Smeg. About which I know nothing, except that it sounds like a character from the Lord of the Rings. A year ago, the notion of buying a Smeg (whereever they are form) would not have crossed her mind. It would have been automaticaly F&P.

Repeat that scenario thousands of times over in the next few years, and tell me that the directors made the wisest decision for the shareholders.

It takes decades to build up a brand to the point where it becomes the recognised symbol of excellence. A single announcment to destroy that.

F&P lost no brand recognition or loyalty, it remains a Kiwi company with the 'brains' behind the name firmly planted on our fair shores. Many Kiwi's will recognise this and purchase regardless. Also in terms of a global market NZ is so small as to have little significance.

The company I work for makes hundreds of thousands of units per year with not one sale in NZ. We found that if/when we wanted to expand and roll out new products the lack rather than the cost of the local labour market was a severe impediment to growth. You simply cannot go out and round up a couple of hundred production workers, the labour market is far to tight. This issue alone drove our production overseas.

[Ixion]

F&P lost no brand recognition or loyalty, it remains a Kiwi company with the 'brains' behind the name firmly planted on our fair shores. Many Kiwi's will recognise this and purchase regardless. Also in terms of a global market NZ is so small as to have little significance.

...

.

Well, it is too soon to tell this. Much of the loyalty to F&P has been because it WAS a Kiwi company. Now, spin it as they may, it is not.

The brand recognition will doubtless still be there. But will it be recognised as a Kiwi company making Kiwi products for Kiwis or just another Asian cheapo manufacturer.

You can't have it both ways (they can't , I mean). You can't at the same time claim to be quality driven and , in the same breath, admit that all that matters is how cheap it is.

It seems to me to be quite irrelevant where the "brains" of the company are (I doubt they have been in NZ for many years). What I care about is where it is made. By what sort of workforce , to what standards.

F&P have now publically stated that their product will be made wherever they can get it made cheapest and the standard is whatever costs least.

A company that is based in Thailand and Mexico and wherever the heck else they are going to certainly cannot claim to be a Kiwi company.

If F&P , a a rresult of this move , can sell their product more cheaply than anyone else, then they will undoubtedly gain sales on that basis. But "We're cheaper" is never a good long term market position. Before long some other Asian company will come along which is cheaper. And then F&P will sell nothing.

[Manxman]

Like National would have done any different - both large parties think the China FTA is a great idea, remember.
Don't mind me, I'm an honorary member of the Balance Police.

Buy NZ Made is the legacy of Rod Donald, and is, what's the word, aspirational. Also known as A Bloody Good Idea, although possibly a little optimistic.

Today's job losses are just the fruit of globalisation, and continued population growth, coupled with (yes, still) cheap oil. For as long as you can get a(nother) wage slave in a foreign sweatshop to work for two bowls of rice and a rusty farthing a day, while making a product/delivering a service that's, well, close to the same quality, and it doesn't cost that much to ship lots of them about the place, businesses will do it. Because all they value is money, not people's lives.

So much for the free market dream.

Might be worth having a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e51JnJPPY0E).

Good watch. This is what politicians are supposed to debate and ponder, not the nugatory shite and petty bickering they currently engage in.

[SixPackBack]

Well, it is too soon to tell this. Much of the loyalty to F&P has been because it WAS a Kiwi company. Now, spin it as they may, it is not.

The brand recognition will doubtless still be there. But will it be recognised as a Kiwi company making Kiwi products for Kiwis or just another Asian cheapo manufacturer.

You can't have it both ways (they can't , I mean). You can't at the same time claim to be quality driven and , in the same breath, admit that all that matters is how cheap it is.

It seems to me to be quite irrelevant where the "brains" of the company are (I doubt they have been in NZ for many years). What I care about is where it is made. By what sort of workforce , to what standards.

F&P have now publically stated that their product will be made wherever they can get it made cheapest and the standard is whatever costs least.

A company that is based in Thailand and Mexico and wherever the heck else they are going to certainly cannot claim to be a Kiwi company.

If F&P , a a rresult of this move , can sell their product more cheaply than anyone else, then they will undoubtedly gain sales on that basis. But "We're cheaper" is never a good long term market position. Before long some other Asian company will come along which is cheaper. And then F&P will sell nothing.

Quality and cost are two seperate issues. You can have both very easily, F&P NZ will have set operating procedures and parameters in place and will monitor quality control very closely.
Manufacturing overseas while controlling from NZ is a standard business practice, and not a particularly new one. It works well.

[Sollyboy]

Interestingly, no one has questioned the moral aspects of F&Ps decision.

We are all familiar with the abuses and exploitation perpetuated by companies such as Nike (if you are not, read URGENTLY Naomi Klein's book 'No Logo' ).

Should we not, as Kiwis, feel some shame that a company as closely associated with NZ as F&P has elected to join such a sordid club?

F and P are certainly a bunch of imoral cunts alright , for decades the government helped their business grow by putting a 30% import duty on any item competing with their product range , they only grew and succecded for this reason ,maybe they hould be wound up and the money redistributed back to the kiwi public .
also I notice there is a lot of call centres going to third world country, surely they should be charged a 30% import tax once the call centre is off shore as they are now importing a service, this might discourage some rich suit type homo outsourcing our jobs

[tri boy]

Have they protected the shareholders, though, at least in the long term?

Perhaps the most valuable asset a company like F&P can have is their brand name


Interesting point you raise.
I could compare it to Bloor, and his decision to move much of Hinkleys manufacturing to Thailand, part keep design n R+D in the UK.
It doesn't seem to be hurting either the Brand Name, or the finished product so far. Time will tell.

[Skyryder]

F and P are certainly a bunch of imoral cunts alright , for decades the government helped their business grow by putting a 30% import duty on any item competing with their product range , they only grew and succecded for this reason ,maybe they hould be wound up and the money redistributed back to the kiwi public .

That's the grattitude you get. I'd nationalize the fuckers. Take back the taxpayers money and flog of whats left for expenses.

Skyyrder

[avgas]

The brand recognition will doubtless still be there. But will it be recognised as a Kiwi company making Kiwi products for Kiwis or just another Asian cheapo manufacturer.
Yes hear hear.
I hate those badly made chinese things by Haier, Siemens, Harley Davidson, BMW, VW, Audi, Suzuki, IBM, HP, Navman, Buick, Lotus......
Unfortunately its not so black and white when you consider all those brands are made by Aisan cheapo factories, but designed elsewhere? Is it?
Its not going to be too long until Jag and Land Rover are made in Tata factories in India.
In fact i think you would find it hard pressed to find ANYTHING made outside of 3 world countries.
F&P knew this was coming many years.

[bikemike]

Other day I rode past a shop called Global Living. Through the window I spied nothing so exciting as some sofas and stuff...
GLOBAL LIVING offers a wide range of contemporary dining, lounge, occasional and outdoor furniture from Europe, Malaysia, China and New Zealand. I thought to myself, we DO NOT live globally. This is consumerist lifestyle propaganda we have swallowed. We live locally.

What we do do is CONSUME globally. How much we consume locally vs globally, necessities versus luxuries or cheap vs quality is determined partly by consumer choice, but also by the finely balanced price of wages versus the price of goods. It's not random.


As teh economic environment changes, businesses need to adapt. We live in a global economy. Free trade deal will see more of this occuring. We can't compete as manufacturers.

[pete376403]

Wonder if the rebranding (from F&P to Elba) was a precursor of this move. Because F&P is so closely associated with NZ, renaming to something else removes that association?
Perhaps thay are going ot bring out other names, using islands somewhere near the factories

[MisterD]

Wonder if the rebranding (from F&P to Elba) was a precursor of this move. Because F&P is so closely associated with NZ, renaming to something else removes that association?
Perhaps thay are going ot bring out other names, using islands somewhere near the factories

They bought the Elba factory in Italy over a year ago...it pretty standard practice for one company to have several brands at different price / quality points. cf Skoda-Seat-VW-Audi-Bentley...

[Marmoot]

I LOL'ed.

:)


Oh, were you serious?

btw yes, i was serious

[Sanx]

Interestingly, no one has questioned the moral aspects of F&Ps decision.

We are all familiar with the abuses and exploitation perpetuated by companies such as Nike (if you are not, read URGENTLY Naomi Klein's book 'No Logo' ).

Should we not, as Kiwis, feel some shame that a company as closely associated with NZ as F&P has elected to join such a sordid club?

Manufacturing overseas does not automatically equate to running a sweatshop. I would say that making such a comparison was naive but, given the poster, I'd say it was just being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, the workers there might get paid a buck a day, but if that's the going rate for that job in that locale, then it's fair. If they were paid the same as kiwi workers, then there wouldn't be any point in moving manufacturing and instead of being paid a buck a day, they'd have no job at all.


Now, they have written all that loyalty off. They are now just another brand of cheap Asian crap.

Mrs Ixion asked me tonight "When we replace the fridge (she has been angling about that for a while now), is there any reason now why we should buy Fisher and Paykel ?" . My answer, with which she concurred "None whatsoever, they are just another Asian brand of cheap and shoddy".

So now she is talking about Smeg. About which I know nothing, except that it sounds like a character from the Lord of the Rings. A year ago, the notion of buying a Smeg (whereever they are form) would not have crossed her mind. It would have been automaticaly F&P.

Again, manufacturing overseas does not automatically equate to cheap and shoddy. If you automatically class anything made in a developing country as such, then you automaitcally write off products by Toyota, BMW, Suzuki, Roche, Nestle (admittedly, not the best company to give as an example), Triumph, General Electric, Boeing, Apple, Sony, Toshiba, Sharp, Panasonic, Pioneer... And that's just companies that manufacture in China. Almost every high-tech electronic component on the market has something made in China, unless you go to extremely high-end hi-fi kit or something along those lines. Even brands that pride themselves on being made in their parent country (Arcam - the British hifi marque, or Sennheiser) utilise chinese-made componentry.

So to declare F&P "another Asian brand of cheap and shoddy" is simply disingenuous. And until you actually see the made-in-wherever products, pure speculation based on little more than outdated prejudice.


The brand recognition will doubtless still be there. But will it be recognised as a Kiwi company making Kiwi products for Kiwis or just another Asian cheapo manufacturer.

The company's kiwi. It's owned by Kiwis, head-quartered in NZ with R&D carried out here. And one of their more profitable sidelines -finance - also based here. Manufacturing in asia simply makes F&P a kiwi company that manufactures offshore, not an asian company.


F&P have now publically stated that their product will be made wherever they can get it made cheapest and the standard is whatever costs least.

No they did not. They stated that they were shifting manufacturing overseas in order to keep themselves competitive. Consider this; the minimum wage in China is about US$1 per hour. The minimum wage in NZ is $12 something an hour - so about US$9. Is the job performed by the slovenly surly pieces of shit I see working (barely) in NZ stores and fast food joints nine times better than the job done by their counterparts in China? Of course not. Reduced labour cost does not equate to reduced quality, provided the F&P procedures and quality control is adhered to, which you can be pretty certain they will do.


A company that is based in Thailand and Mexico and wherever the heck else they are going to certainly cannot claim to be a Kiwi company.

As stated above, F&P are based in New Zealand. They manufacture in THailand or Mexico or wherever. Ford manufacture all over the world, but they're still an American company, no?


She may be a beautiful sexy woman but I still blame Aunty Helen and her best buddy Michael the arrogant prick - Where the hell are our tax breaks.
Ireland turned it's economy around with the help of..wait for it, tax cuts.

Thailand have offered F&P eight years totally free of any tax! Just pause for a second and try and absorb that benefit. Bloody Labour have spent years telling private individuals and businesses that we don't deserve, or need tax cuts. And besides, with tax cuts how can Labour continue to promote welfare as the preferred way of life.
Right now the Labour party are singing out of tune poorly altered Kenny Rogers songs to celebrate 430 more beneficiaries as a victory.

I agree entirely (apart from Uncle Helen being a beautiful sexy woman, you sick bugger). If the government wasn't solely interested in having as many beneficiaries as possible in the country, so increasing the number of no-hope lazy fucks who'll all vote Labour, then they'd try to encourage manufacturing. The US does it, Australia does it - even the UK does it.

In NZ, just building a factory takes five years, four of which are spent getting negotiating with the local Iwi, preparing imapct statements, and all the other shite involved in getting resource consent. You get OSH stormtroopers all over you if you don't have enough signs up reminding staff to do stuff that should be bloody obvious. You've then got to give four weeks holiday for every worker, and if he turns out to be fucking useless, you can't simply get rid of the lazy arse, you have to go through a process that takes months, all of which time you're still paying him. And then you have to pay ACC levies, Kiwisaver, not to mention the other raft of expenses and procedural bullshit that has to be waded through in order to ensure compliance.

It's not all Labour's fault; you can blame those green communists too, but it's discouraging companies from growing, or setting up manufacturing facilities here. At the end of the day, NZ will simply become a timber, meat and dairy based economy.

[rainman]

btw yes, i was serious

S'alright, I'm sure you can get pills for that. Pray tell, which part of our high-tech IT industry (such as it is) cannot be replicated elsewhere?

I'd be interested to see our (NZ owned) top five most profitable IT-exporting companies (not profit-exporting local services shows) and their total number of employees. And IT export revenues and % of total exports, as compared to the real first world, even per capita. I will have to hit the stats site... but I'm not expecting that it's a big number, even in relative terms.

The knowledge economy is a crock.

[Marmoot]

S'alright, I'm sure you can get pills for that. Pray tell, which part of our high-tech IT industry (such as it is) cannot be replicated elsewhere?

IT consultancy, network infrastructure industry, network maintenance and engineering, high-end R&D. These kind of IT industries are still primarily held by developed (and relatively-developed) countries. Especially with network maintenance and engineering, industries would choose local partners instead of trusting someone halfway around the world that don't know the local situations.

I'd assume you were thinking of programming farm and 1st/2nd tier tech support? Aye, those have gone to India last year.

[rainman]

IT consultancy, network infrastructure industry, network maintenance and engineering, high-end R&D. These kind of IT industries are still primarily held by developed (and relatively-developed) countries. Especially with network maintenance and engineering, industries would choose local partners instead of trusting someone halfway around the world that don't know the local situations.

I'd assume you were thinking of programming farm and 1st/2nd tier tech support? Aye, those have gone to India last year.

Perhaps you are getting confused between "stuff we're currently managing to hang on to" and that "which cannot be replicated anywhere else", to quote you. Also, as you acknowledge in your response here, most of the consultancy and infrastructure stuff is domestic consumption, from local partners not exporters (and I know of what I speak, my company has had a number of attempts to export consulting services, even on a small scale it ain't easy - they don't "trust someone halfway around the world..." as you point out). And even if it's domestic consumption today, a lot of successful kiwi companies grow and get bought by, say, an aussie co, whereupon "local" takes on a whole new meaning and the NZ services evaporate. Been there, done that, too.

Back to the original topic, about how we should offshore "low value" manufacturing and keep "high value" IT etc, how does it help NZ's trade situation if I design a network (for example) for a local customer, sell them a bunch of Cisco kit, and implement and support it for them? Apart from the small bits of local money circulating from their customers to them and then to me (so I can send it overseas and buy a plasma), most of the moolah heads offshore, to buy a product we have zero input into. Which is my original point - we don't have a successful NZ IT export brand (I'm thinking of Cisco, Nokia, Microsuck, IBM, etc)... Who's been the biggest success lately? Marshal, maybe? That worked out well, didn't it?

And exporting's critical, if you love globalisation - because we import rather a lot, and unlike the US, people overseas aren't going to lend us money to subsidise us living beyond our means just because we're nice guys and gals. They did for the US, but they're the reserve currency of the world, and besides they have lots of guns. So the choice is: find high value shit to export, or stop importing.

On the high-end R&D score, I interviewed a chap recently who has an Engineering (Electronics) PhD, and is clearly a very smart dude indeed. Originally from overseas. He's wanting to retrain into IT because there's feck all opportunity in NZ for his skills. So much for the high value design work, eh?

[Marmoot]

hey it's totally up to you to believe what you want. But i've seen things like Virtual Rally technology (what's the actual name? I can't remember) being successful and sold to overseas companies (such as Rally organiser etc) to use, and things that they use in broadcasting the America's Cup online (I think it was Virtual Spectator?). Those are the industries that help NZ go forward.

Can't survive by thinking the only way forward is to keep digging coals and assembling fridges.

[rainman]

hey it's totally up to you to believe what you want.

Sadly, reality isn't that optional.

ICT sales were up 3.3% in 2007, comparable to CPI (2006 was up 7.9% so we're going backwards). Exports decreased 4.2% to $1.5B, and are a shade over 8% of the total NZ market. If I'm doing my sums right that's about 4% of total exports and 3.5% of total imports.

Only 9 OECD countries had a positive ICT trade balance in 2005, and they weren't NZ. We were second from the bottom. Only Aussie is worse. We're 22nd in the OECD for ICT trade volume. 22nd. Mexico, where they make our cheap whiteware now, cause they're not as smart as us and all, are 5th. Oh, and they also have a positive ICT trade balance.


But i've seen things like Virtual Rally technology (what's the actual name? I can't remember) being successful and sold to overseas companies (such as Rally organiser etc) to use, and things that they use in broadcasting the America's Cup online (I think it was Virtual Spectator?). Those are the industries that help NZ go forward.


Hey I didn't say it wouldn't couldn't happen, just that it was piddly small scale, smaller than our imports addiction (you could lose the total ICT exports three times over in the 2007 annual deficit). And it's under threat besides from the inconvenient fact that all those "lesser" economies seem to be doing just fine learning how to build the high value stuff all by themselves.


Can't survive by thinking the only way forward is to keep digging coals and assembling fridges.

No, probably not. But having your head up your arse isn't going to help either... :)

However much we love the kiwi battler meme, the ICT industry just isn't going to come from behind and save the day.

IT in NZ is toast.

It just hasn't figured that out yet.

[avgas]

hey it's totally up to you to believe what you want. But i've seen things like Virtual Rally technology (what's the actual name? I can't remember) being successful and sold to overseas companies (such as Rally organiser etc) to use, and things that they use in broadcasting the America's Cup online (I think it was Virtual Spectator?). Those are the industries that help NZ go forward.

Can't survive by thinking the only way forward is to keep digging coals and assembling fridges.
Just to re-enforce a point here - most of the high tech stuff developed in NZ the 'average joe' doesn't see. Even if F&P's case their healthcare market is HUGE and makes sales of washing machines in NZ look pathetic.
However i know this will become a pissing match i figure i will show you all the good thing NZ is currently leading in (tech wise):
GPS Nav - Navman
GPS Time Synchronization - TEKRON
Crystal Oscillators - Rakon
Substation Automation (installation and operation) - Vector..........
So its not all bad here.

[Morcs]

Well it has begun.

We have been instructed to let F&P take the mould tools off us to go to thailand.

This is on top of a load of their tools going to mexico last year.

:(

[SixPackBack]

Just to re-enforce a point here - most of the high tech stuff developed in NZ the 'average joe' doesn't see. Even if F&P's case their healthcare market is HUGE and makes sales of washing machines in NZ look pathetic.
However i know this will become a pissing match i figure i will show you all the good thing NZ is currently leading in (tech wise):
GPS Nav - Navman
GPS Time Synchronization - TEKRON
Crystal Oscillators - Rakon
Substation Automation (installation and operation) - Vector..........
So its not all bad here.

Wellington Drive tech. are another sector leader

[rainman]

Just to completely overstate my point, in case there is any confusion:

- I am proud of the technology innovation we have in NZ
- We should have more of it
- The companies who are successful exporters are admirable and should be incented to do more, and hopefully inspire others to join them

BUT

- The scale of our ICT exports is pitifully small compared to our imports addiction - We run a nasty trade imbalance across the board and also in ICT
- It is a BIG ask to ramp up ICT to address this problem
- If we think we're special because of our colonial heritage or any other bullshit reason we are deluded - Asia and the other mid-tier economies are eating our lunch, and not just at the grunt jobs
- Our productivity is relatively low, and we are nothing special in a global context. In fact we have a disadvantage in shipping physical product because we're far away from global markets and fuel probably ain't getting cheaper (and we cost too much to be good at manufacturing, anyway).
- Our wages can't go down to match our competitors because the stuff we need to live (and a lot of stuff we don't need, but buy anyway) is shipped in from far away so is more expensive. Be a bad idea anyway.
- $1.5bn (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200804221749/3cbc92b3) in broadband investment will be nice, but won't radically change our ICT balance of payments (probably just reduce productivity even more!)

We have few options but to live within our means, or face the consequences (short term, high interest rates, long term, who knows?).

[Marmoot]

- Our productivity is relatively low, and we are nothing special in a global context. In fact we have a disadvantage in shipping physical product because we're far away from global markets and fuel probably ain't getting cheaper (and we cost too much to be good at manufacturing, anyway).

Here is a very good point on why we cannot rely on basic manufacturing business.

Also, couple that with the local market base which is virtually a peanut (compare to China market at 1 billion people, US market, etc) which makes manufacturing business unable to rely on domestic consumption.

If a manufacturing business cannot rely on domestic consumption and also cost too much to export, then it is basically dead.

Carry on. Look for alternative economic sources, I'd say.
We're good at farming and exporting cows.
And apparently we're good at exporting kiwis as well. Maybe slavetrading has a future :Pokey: