Body position

[The Stranger]

I am a member of a Fazer forum. We are fortunate to have also as members 2 instructors from Superbike school (http://www.superbikeschool.com/) and 1 from Total Control ARC (http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/).
I have included a link (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76662) to a thread on body position which I think is very informative.

[Ixion]

Linky, him on blinky

Only works if you are a registered member I think

[The Stranger]

Oh darn!
Shame really as these guys are pretty clued up - as one would expect from Fazer owners.

[Usarka]

1st page loaded for me no probs. Had to be a memeber to read the next pages (and maybe the first couple of pics unfortunately)

1st post was pretty informative though.

might have to buy an fzs, have they fixed the ground clearance issue yet (like i need it :lol:)

[DingoZ]

From the link.... My apologies if it's a mortal sin. But some might not be able to read it, and it may be of use..

Copied and pasted
below is a direct quote

"
I just decided to check out the board and saw this crash description.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pingvin
Well, maybe more margin with respect to ground clearance.

But when it comes to grip, hang off means (in my case anyway) higher speed, more side force, and less grip. I always use sports tire to be sure grip isn't a problem, at least not when it's warm and dry, in this case Michelin Pilot Power 2CT. At least I thought grip wasn't a problem...

I found this wasn't the case the hard way, going down hill, maybe doing 100kph, throwing the bike into a lefthand corner, just touching down with my knee. Then the front tire went.



Then I saw these pictures:
http://yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showpos...8&postcount=72
and
http://yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showpos...7&postcount=76

I see this quite often at the superbike school and I'm guilty of it too:
http://gormanonline.com/photos/misc/picture36.aspx
and
http://gormanonline.com/photos/misc/picture35.aspx

Now, what you're seeing in these pictures is the rider counter-leaning. That is, he's holding his upper body vertical or close to it.

THIS CAUSES YOU TO USE MORE LEAN ANGLE THAN YOU NEED FOR A GIVEN SPEED.

I can back that statement up too.
Get a friend, have them or you hold the bike vertical with the sidestand down - just in case this goes bad.
The one who's not holding the bike gets on and puts their feet on the pegs and their hands on the bars just like they're riding.
Then, when the person holding the bike is ready, the rider move's their butt as far as they can off to the left side WHILE KEEPING THEIR UPPER BODY OVER THE CENTER OF THE BIKE.
Ask the person holding the bike how much of a struggle it is.
Then, get your butt back to the center of the seat and, without moving your butt, move your upper body down over the gas tank - slide your butt back if you need more room - and then move your upper body only as far to left as you dare.
Now ask your friend how much of a struggle it is to hold up the bike.

From this little experiment you'll see how much more important it is to move the upper body and just about anything you do with your lower body doesn't matter nearly as much as you might think.

In my pictures on the FZ, there's a little counter-lean, not much. The FZ's handle bars make it kind of difficult to really get it right. But what I strive for now is something more like this:
http://gormanonline.com/photos/misc/picture591.aspx

By the way, while you've got your buddy holding the bike, push on the foot pegs individually and see what that does.

Regarding Pingvin's crash. Most likely, the reason the front slid was because he was too late getting on the throttle. Also, most likely, the main reason he was late getting the throttle on was because he was trying to get his knee down. That can be classified as a mortal sin - it's probably killed more than a few. It's a mortal sin because his attention wasn't on getting the corner right, it was on going fast and his knee.

I see this SO OFTEN while coaching at the Superbike School. A student will be riding down the straight and start moving his butt off real far. I'll even see the bike wiggle, not from his speed, but from him having to hold on to the bars to support his totally unbalanced body position.

He'll lean the bike over real slow to and stick his knee to touch. Failing there, by a long shot, he'll (she'll) lean the bike in more. Well that scares them and the stand the bike up a little and then they do it again, this time while rolling on the gas. Well, the added lean angle plus the added throttle means the rear slides. So they chop the throttle and have a, hopefully, mini high-side.

That person is a crash waiting to happen and they get handled immediately by any coach that sees it.

OK, so now you know why trying to get your knee down is dangerous. If you're trying, you're most likely making a lot of riding errors and not even noticing them. Simply put, when you're at those lean angles your attention needs to be on riding not on where your knee is.

So, how do you do it? Don't think about it. When it touches, it touches.

The first time, and second sometimes too, my knee touches down it startles me.

Summary time:

Body position - think more about the upper body. Go with the bike or in the direction of the turn. Don't counter lean.

Trying to get your knee down - Takes attention away from actually riding. Provokes front end slides from being on the gas too late. Provokes rear end slides from leaning in more and getting on the throttle.

Learn. Ride. Learn. Ride. Repeat.
__________________
Greg Gorman
www.superbikeschool.com
www.gormanonline.com
"

[homer]

i am currently trying this leaning the bike and i lean forward slightly and also leaning way over with the turn , it feels right ,bike seems to like it , so is this correct

[The Stranger]

1st post was pretty informative though.

might have to buy an fzs, have they fixed the ground clearance issue yet (like i need it :lol:)

There are some very good posts later on in the thread also as the instructor from Total Control gets involved.

As to the ground clearance issue - well not really fixed. Main thing there is the width at the pegs.
Wouldn't want to be a short bastard trying to ride a Fazer.
Several guys have fitted rear sets which helps a lot.

[dipshit]

Body position - think more about the upper body. Go with the bike or in the direction of the turn. Don't counter lean. "

I could imagine this would be a bit of a revelation for the posers and wankers out there that like to get their butts and knees out... but it's pretty old news really.

I can clearly remember being taught in my old racing days (mid to late 80's) that your centre of gravity is about in the middle of your chest, and that is the most useful part to move to the inside of the bike in a corner.

There was some discussion with some good vids about this not long ago...
www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=70924

[Jimmy B]

i am currently trying this leaning the bike and i lean forward slightly and also leaning way over with the turn , it feels right ,bike seems to like it , so is this correct

Yeah I think so homer. The X11 is probably not too different to the bandit in terms of body position and I find that when I am riding well my lower body moves very little and my upper body position is lower and follows the line I am focusing on ie vanishing point. The bike is very settled and controllable.

When I am riding like a bag of arseholes I tend to relapse to my off road days, where I began, semi motard style with a more upright position in my upper body. Lean angle is more than it should be and the bike is a bit iffy in the tight corners. One of my mates slips noticeably into this as well, his rear tyre is ragged from edge to edge.

[CookMySock]

ahaaa! thats very interesting. I was having my front tyre give a sudden dip and a dive while corning and I thought it was my crap suspension and tyres. (they probably didn't help) heres the link to that thread. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=70800

Reading these recent posts, I wonder if I was leaning out and over, countersteering in and getting a fright mid-corner, and sitting up straight and throttling off.. both of which will give the front tyre a hell of a fright for sure.

I seriously need some time on the track on a pus-bucket bike that I'm not afraid to drop.

DB

[Jimmy B]

getting a fright mid-corner, and sitting up straight and throttling off..
DB

That will certainly upset the bike. Plenty written about cornering technique but key points are to concentrate on correct entry speed and line. Get this right and you will be able to drive through the corner and smoothly accelerate out.

If you enter a corner too hot you will be forced to either ride it out or attempt to slow whilst leant over. Far easier to get the entry and line right.

[NZsarge]

Oh darn!
Shame really as these guys are pretty clued up - as one would expect from Fazer owners.

Here here! :clap:

[henry]

Your head is the heaviest part of your body so it makes sense to get that inside as far as you can. Like the Michael Neeves looking round the door technique.
There are a couple of young guys I have ridden with who get all twisted up with their arse out but everything elee over the bike. Can't be comfortable.

[CookMySock]

If you enter a corner too hot you will be forced to either ride it out or attempt to slow whilst leant over. Far easier to get the entry and line right.hehe, as a learner on sport bikes, every corner feels too fast :pinch:

It has been a matter of learning to trust the bike and tyres, at the same time balancing this with just what the tyres and bike can actually do.. jigsaw puzzle !

I am no where near my maximum lean angle, and have never nicked any part of the bike (or me) on the ground, and I haven't managed to skid a tyre on any road surface yet, except for a slight squidge and a squiggle as we crossed some varying road surfaces while cornering.. :pinch::crybaby:

My point being, every corner at speed basically I have to "ride out" while feeling the fear and doing it anyway. :(

DB

[Jimmy B]

Hey DB if every corner feels too fast then maybe it is. Practice slow in and smooth out. One method of "slowing things down" is to look further ahead and through the corner where possible, although you are not actually going slower it will give your brain more time to make decisions. It will feel slower. Takes practice though cause your first instinct will be to focus on whats immediately in front of you and not where you are headed.

[The Stranger]

Here here! :clap:

So have you done any of the standard modifications to yours yet?
Makes one HELL of a difference.

[The Stranger]

I seriously need some time on the track on a pus-bucket bike that I'm not afraid to drop.

DB

According to your profile you already have one :Pokey:

[jrandom]

I second the remarks about leading with your shoulder when moving body weight in corners instead of consciously sticking your arse and knee out.

It's the only way to ride a bike like a GSX1400, f'rinstance, where you run out of lean angle real quick, and if you haven't set yourself up for the corner properly you'll just lever yourself up on some piece or other of the bike and go for a slide (like I did coming out of T7 at Taupo two weeks ago).

Sticking your arse and knee out to one side while keeping your shoulders and head lined up over the tank gives you sweet fuck all additional cornering pace for a given lean angle.

[CookMySock]

According to your profile you already have one :Pokey:haha, nice comeback. Nah I am genuinely scared of dropping that. Pricey! I need a $600 junker.


I second the remarks about leading with your shoulder when moving body weight in corners instead of consciously sticking your arse and knee out.For the first time a few weeks ago, I saw something very surprising while I was in the middle of a corner.. I didn't know what it was for a second.. A VERY bright flash of red! It was the outside of my fairing close to my visor - I had never seen it before while riding. It was cool.. I want to see it again! soon! :niceone:

DB

[Maha]

I am a member of a Fazer forum. We are fortunate to have also as members 2 instructors from Superbike school (http://www.superbikeschool.com/) and 1 from Total Control ARC (http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/).
I have included a link (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76662) to a thread on body position which I think is very informative.


OMG! They have moderators, how unusual....

[GaZBur]

I second the remarks about leading with your shoulder when moving body weight in corners instead of consciously sticking your arse and knee out.
...Sticking your arse and knee out to one side while keeping your shoulders and head lined up over the tank gives you sweet fuck all additional cornering pace for a given lean angle.
I third that remark. With tall bikes especially I personally find it best to hang your sholder and elbow forward and down and keep the knee tucked in, coz on a tall bike if it does get away on you you are pretty well guaranteed to smash the knee!

[Mental Trousers]

OMG! They have moderators, how unusual....
But are their moderators cool and sexy??

[Maha]

But are their moderators cool and sexy??


Im sure KB had some of that description once....I didnt mention Admin did I?

[Cajun]

Im sure KB had some of that description once....I didnt mention Admin did I?

cool that means i must be cool and sexy then, didn't think you though about me in such ways Mr Maha

[Maha]

cool that means i must be cool and sexy then, didn't think you though about me in such ways Mr Maha


Well front on you look very much like the new FZ1S so theres the comparison Knealt.

[Mental Trousers]

Im sure KB had some of that description once....I didnt mention Admin did I?
We still have!!! 007XX makes up for the rest of us in the looks stakes.

[Maha]

We still have!!! 007XX makes up for the rest of us in the looks stakes.


But I dont see the forum she has under her controll.
I just see her in person from time to time....she changes as much as her avatars and granted, better looking than say..........Hitcher?
I can say that cos she aint around today...:no:

[ManDownUnder]

But are their moderators cool and sexy??

Mutually exclusive I'm afraid... Like wondering if black holes can be shiney... or The Mormon Few being respected...

Never going to happen.

[Mental Trousers]

But I dont see the forum she has under her controll.
I just see her in person from time to time....she changes as much as her avatars and granted, better looking than say..........Hitcher?
I can say that cos she aint around today...:no:

Well join the group that lets you into the forum she moderates mate.

It's actually not hard to be better looking than Hitcher.

[NZsarge]

So have you done any of the standard modifications to yours yet?
Makes one HELL of a difference.

And by standard mods you mean? I have dropped the front sprocket size from 17 to 16 but that was largely conteracted by putting a higher profile rear tyre on at the same time. Put some lightly used Continental Race Attacks I bought second hand, have'nt ridden it very far yet but i'm liking them so far.
I want to put an Ivan's FCE on soon and after that if I can scrape up the cash an Ohlins rear shock from Robert with fork mods when I can afford that.
I'd be grateful for suggestions, i'm on the Fazer forum but have'nt had too much of a chance to sit down and really go through it that much.

[The Stranger]

And by standard mods you mean? I have dropped the front sprocket size from 17 to 16 but that was largely conteracted by putting a higher profile rear tyre on at the same time. Put some lightly used Continental Race Attacks I bought second hand, have'nt ridden it very far yet but i'm liking them so far.
I want to put an Ivan's FCE on soon and after that if I can scrape up the cash an Ohlins rear shock from Robert with fork mods when I can afford that.
I'd be grateful for suggestions, i'm on the Fazer forum but have'nt had too much of a chance to sit down and really go through it that much.

PC3, FCE, DNA filter, modified airbox, Yoshi TRC and mid pipe (removes Exup), gutted cat, Ivans sub throttle plates, no AIS, Factory Pro velocity stacks

Have you seen this page (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/2006fz1.htm)?
You can get a gain of 30hp in the middle with good gains right through.

[The Stranger]

PC3, FCE, DNA filter, modified airbox, Yoshi TRC and mid pipe (removes Exup), gutted cat, Ivans sub throttle plates, no AIS, Factory Pro velocity stacks

Have you seen this page (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/2006fz1.htm)?
You can get a gain of 30hp in the middle with good gains right through.

Ivan has posted a chart with the full Yoshi system he develloped. It gains another 8hp at around 6k and 3hp at the top end. But at about NZ $1500.00 I think I will go for the rear shock next.

[NZsarge]

PC3, FCE, DNA filter, modified airbox, Yoshi TRC and mid pipe (removes Exup), gutted cat, Ivans sub throttle plates, no AIS, Factory Pro velocity stacks

Have you seen this page (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/2006fz1.htm)?
You can get a gain of 30hp in the middle with good gains right through.

Nice, thanks for that....whew! Gonna need a money tree first I reckon.
Gonna tackle the suspension first (after the FCE) because i'm way too heavy for the present set up, I don't make huge money so it'll be a work in progress.
I kinda like the idea that i'll be building the bike around my needs and the way I want it to go, I see huge potential in the FZ.

And yeah I have that page bookmarked. :niceone:

[mstriumph]

thanks for the 'cut and paste' Dingoz ........:yes:

actually, it comes as one hell of a relief - i've never done the knee/butt thingy - have always relied on moving my upper body

soooooooooooooooooo nice to find out i'm in qualified company, especially after all the mockers :Punk:

[Chickenlegs]

So, who's gonna volunteer to tell Doohan, Abe (RIP) and Schwantsz there riding styles sucked?

[The Stranger]

Nice, thanks for that....whew! Gonna need a money tree first I reckon.
Gonna tackle the suspension first (after the FCE) because i'm way too heavy for the present set up, I don't make huge money so it'll be a work in progress.
I kinda like the idea that i'll be building the bike around my needs and the way I want it to go, I see huge potential in the FZ.

And yeah I have that page bookmarked. :niceone:

Disconnect the Exup cables and gut the CAT from the collector cost nothing. Airbox mod and de-screen the std filter cost nothing.
You can zip tie the secondary flies open, only costs a few cents.

Yoshi and mid pipe $730.00

Yamaha got a lot of complaints about the rear beeing too hard.
The only differences between the 06 and 07 is that the 0 has 15% lighter rear spring and they tickled the fueling to fix the throttle snatch and reduce the HP a whisker on the 07s.
Springing is pretty good for my weight (100kg)

[Grub]

This is great to read. This is what I was trying to get across in The Bum Steer (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=66687).

The point was largely lost in the religious zeal of defending the countersteer. It wasn't about killing that sacred cow, it was about thinking of cornering and these guys are saying pretty much that.

[dipshit]

So, who's gonna volunteer to tell Doohan, Abe (RIP) and Schwantsz there riding styles sucked?

That was a trait of their dirt tracking background. It is not the way the fast top riders are riding these days.

[Mikkel]

I think that the point about not trying too hard at getting your knee down or whatever is very good.

Ultimately it's just about practicing being as smooth as possible, all the time. (Coupled of course with a few exercises in mastering your braking potential.)

Regarding moving your body off the bike - certainly the upper body is very important since it has more leverage. However, getting your butt off the seat and using your legs provides the foundation for getting your upper body moving to its full potential.


But are their moderators cool and sexy??


cool that means i must be cool and sexy then, didn't think you though about me in such ways Mr Maha


We still have!!! 007XX makes up for the rest of us in the looks stakes.


Well join the group that lets you into the forum she moderates mate.

It's actually not hard to be better looking than Hitcher.

So where are the mods, whose job it is to relocate pointless drivel? :wait:

[DUCATI*HARD]

heads down,,,fingers crossed;)

[carver]

Mutually exclusive I'm afraid... Like wondering if black holes can be shiney... or The Mormon Few being respected...

Never going to happen.

we get respect dude..just ride with us...on a proper ride, not some hippie 20kph peace cheesey flower cutting ride

[ManDownUnder]

we get respect dude..just ride with us...on a proper ride, not some hippie 20kph peace cheesey flower cutting ride

Credit where it's due - fair call.