Poor handling motorcycle? Suspension may not be at fault.

[Shaun]

I read on here all the time, about how billy B is having trouble with this and that, and it all seems to end up here in the suspension section of the site.

A lot of bad handling bikes, comes from the Stearing head set up in the first place!! and swingarm bearings, NOT JUST BAD QUALITY STANDARD SUSPENSION!

It seems that people believe there standard parts are NO good, as others do say this regually on here!, but Yamaha Suzuki etc are not totally stupid, they have professional engineers that build there product, so the product is good, just NOT the best:wari:

Stearing head bearings set up well, have given me over 1 second a lap at some tracks over the years:2thumbsup

So my point is, if you are going to spend money on Suspension parts, DO YOUR STEARING HEAD BEARINGS AS WELL, to gauantee the quality of the fresh re build.

Have to work through all potentuall issues that could be causing any handling issues for you, it is NOT just Suspension parts that can cause these problems

[onearmedbandit]

Very good point, if there are underlying problems like you've mentioned throwing money at the bike with aftermarket gear isn't going to do you any favours. Would you say Shaun that due to the nature of the 'performance' parts available (Ohlins etc) that any issue like worn steering head bearings would be worse with top shelf items, due to the tolerences of these parts?

[slowpoke]

Thanks for the reminder!
I've got the suspension out for a freshen up and I've got a set of steering head bearings sitting in a packet so I'll save myself some potential aggravation and change 'em out.
I was planning on greasing up my rear end (couldn't resist, sorry for the imagery) but hadn't really thought too much about the front.

[98tls]

Some good points there Shaun especially for those of us with older bikes,awhile back i did the swingarm bearings on mine and lets just say they should have been done long before i did:rolleyes:

[imdying]

Yep, and trick suspension won't save a ride running on haggard tyres :no:

[Shaun]

Very good point, if there are underlying problems like you've mentioned throwing money at the bike with aftermarket gear isn't going to do you any favours. Would you say Shaun that due to the nature of the 'performance' parts available (Ohlins etc) that any issue like worn steering head bearings would be worse with top shelf items, due to the tolerences of these parts?


Perhaps Ohlin's Penske Traxxion etc would pick up on the faulty parts quicker than standard gear, but my real point was, STOP spending money on suspension parts, untill you know the rest of the chassis package is as it should be!

If I have just done myself out of a DOLLAR Great! at least you have a better/ safer/ bike to ride now.

And just changing stearing head bearings will not fix the problem if there is one, the correct tension of the bearings is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, the way the average Mechanic does stearing head bearings check, is bloody terrible/ nearly as bad as what a testing station does to check your stearing head out.

And then, the forks need re fitting using Tourque settings for the bolts YOUR GUESS WORK of overtight Tripple clamps causes wear on the fork internalls

It must be bolted together with serious care, treat it like it was your LOVER, and it will be good.

PS, Bolting together can be done by anyone, who has the feal/understanding IF YOU DO NOT- PAY SOMEONE who does:devil2:

More advise for ya, email or call direct to proven known suspension people, ( Yes I do consider myself ONE of these) some of the rubbish/advice I read on here on accasions, is very scary:Playnice:

[FilthyLuka]

Hey Shaun, thanks for posting this up, i have stickied it and renamed the title to give a slightly better indication of what is in it.

Cheers mate, bling sent.

[Shaun]

Hey Shaun, thanks for posting this up, i have stickied it and renamed the title to give a slightly better indication of what is in it.

Cheers mate, bling sent.




Good on ya Filthy! Way to many people running around getting no where really

[CookMySock]

I'm lookin forward to ya workin on my bike, Shaun. I get down your way reasonably regularly, so will book it in before I come down, maybe make a plan beforehand.


DB

[Cajun]

how about another question, how often should you change your steering bearings?, km? years?
or just when worn, but next point how know they are worn?

[FROSTY]

Given some of the stories I've heard about badly set up suspension etc Im thinking that applying the KISS principle BEFORE lashing out on trick gear would be just common dog.

[Robert Taylor]

Perhaps Ohlin's Penske Traxxion etc would pick up on the faulty parts quicker than standard gear, but my real point was, STOP spending money on suspension parts, untill you know the rest of the chassis package is as it should be!

If I have just done myself out of a DOLLAR Great! at least you have a better/ safer/ bike to ride now.

And just changing stearing head bearings will not fix the problem if there is one, the correct tension of the bearings is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, the way the average Mechanic does stearing head bearings check, is bloody terrible/ nearly as bad as what a testing station does to check your stearing head out.

And then, the forks need re fitting using Tourque settings for the bolts YOUR GUESS WORK of overtight Tripple clamps causes wear on the fork internalls

It must be bolted together with serious care, treat it like it was your LOVER, and it will be good.

PS, Bolting together can be done by anyone, who has the feal/understanding IF YOU DO NOT- PAY SOMEONE who does:devil2:

More advise for ya, email or call direct to proven known suspension people, ( Yes I do consider myself ONE of these) some of the rubbish/advice I read on here on accasions, is very scary:Playnice:

And time wasting too Shaun!

Yes it is indeed all very relevant that the fundamentals are first checked. Point of fact a more correct understanding is that the suspension is actually more than just the shock absorbers and forks, the motorcycle community and trade are all guilty in perpetuating this misunderstanding. In the car world it is dampers and springs as PART of the suspension in total, that is more correct. When a Formula car crashes and it rips its supension off that primarily means the wishbones / torque arms / link arms and pickups that transmit load back to the dampers.

So in a motorcycle the front suspension ( effectively ) consists also of the headstock and the bearings that keep everything in alignment, dependent as Shaun eluded to with correct preloading tension, condition and grease packing. With BMW telelever etc there are of course a few more suspension elements transmitting load back to the shock absorber unit. In the rear end the swingarm and linkage and therefore all the bearings and bushings are also part of the suspension.

Major motorcycle manufacturers are indeed not stupid but they are predominantly run by accountants. That is why there will only be a ''whiff'' of average low cost grease in the head bearings and swingarm bearings. Most stock suspension units will indeed work better when the settings are optimised to the rider but only to the point of their limitations, which are very real. That is exactly why a top shelf suspension company such as Ohlins sells tens of thousands of suspension units every year, because they raise the performance and quality bar significantly.

Some oem suspension units on bikes are just beyond help as they are built to an abysmal standard and yes I am unashamedly pointing the finger at the mainland Asian products.

I also have to agree with Shaun that some of the 'advice' given on this forum is indeed very scary. While I have no doubt much of it is said with the best intentions I beleive some of what goes on has undoubtedly compromised peoples safety and pockets. If there is a service that I personally need that I know only little about, I seek an experienced and qualified specialist with a good name.

I think it is also a fault of human nature that very often people will only hear what they actually want to hear. Example, a specialist offers a ''correct'' solution by offering the correct shock absorber specific to the bike, this costing X amount of dollars.Then someone else posts and says that he has got a shock that ''should fit'' for less than X dollars. As so often happens it may fit but the length is incorrect and it has messed with the geometry making the bike unstable. Moreover the spring rate and valving is either too soft or too stiff because it is calibrated for the motion ratio of the bike it actually came off which is quite different. And people on this forum have chastised me for advocating control of what people can and cannot do.

This ort of nonsense happens day in and day out. There are none so blind that will not see....ask an industry expert before committing to something that on th face of it is a quick fix. You may be surprised how approachable we are, and that every communication does not have to be a sale!

[firefighter]

it's funny how people always think that standard suspention is crap, when the manufacturers spend thousands developing it......

[98tls]

it's funny how people always think that standard suspention is crap, when the manufacturers spend thousands developing it...... As has been pointed out though they have financial constraints as in they need to make money,what i find more amusing is people that have no idea if there standard suspension is good or bad but change it anyway then ride in such a way that the standard suspenders would have been well adequate.

[Robert Taylor]

it's funny how people always think that standard suspention is crap, when the manufacturers spend thousands developing it......

They actually spend a whole load less than you think and then use the pr whizzkids to get the public to believe that the machinery is more capable than what it actually is. ''Race ready'' etc, the sad part being people actually believe the slogans! When you actually ride a motorcycle with top shelf suspension components on it that are set up specifically for you it is then that you realise just how average standard suspension is. Anyone who says different is actually in a state of denial.

The balance sheets of manufacturers such as Ohlins, WP and Penske are healthy just on the back of sales for sport and roadbikes alone. Remember that a very great slice of their market is for improving performance, more so than to replace worn out suspension.

When I worked for the NZ Yamaha distributor as their technical manager I was prepared to believe that the original suspension was ''excellent'' Having now worked with suspension for over 22 years and distributing the worlds No 1 suspension product I now know quite different.

[doc]

it's funny how people always think that standard suspention is crap, when the manufacturers spend thousands developing it......


As has been pointed out though they have financial constraints as in they need to make money,what i find more amusing is people that have no idea if there standard suspension is good or bad but change it anyway then ride in such a way that the standard suspenders would have been well adequate.

Yep I agree look at Harley suspension, basically pretty poor . But when you mention that to the dealer they usually answer , most prefer to customise their bikes and change it anyway.

All this suspension stuff gets a bit anal , unless you are on a track . How could you set a road bike suspension up perfectly then travel to the South Island from Jaffa-land carrying a load, which can vary in weight. Surely high tech is not necessary on the road. Owner adjustments aren't dangerous as some would have us believe.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep I agree look at Harley suspension, basically pretty poor . But when you mention that to the dealer they usually answer , most prefer to customise their bikes and change it anyway.

All this suspension stuff gets a bit anal , unless you are on a track . How could you set a road bike suspension up perfectly then travel to the South Island from Jaffa-land carrying a load, which can vary in weight. Surely high tech is not necessary on the road. Owner adjustments aren't dangerous as some would have us believe.

That messing around with high tech suspension is only relevant to the track is as big a misconception as any that I have heard. There are plenty of BMW owners out there who have purchased high quality suspension with a very wide adjustment range and have successfully overcome such issues.

Those that have sampled high quality suspension will vehemently disagree that high tech is unneccesary for the road.

[doc]

That messing around with high tech suspension is only relevant to the track is as big a misconception as any that I have heard. There are plenty of BMW owners out there who have purchased high quality suspension with a very wide adjustment range and have successfully overcome such issues.

Those that have sampled high quality suspension will vehemently disagree that high tech is unneccesary for the road.

Sorry but personally.You mention BMW and anal springs to mind. No character, no noise, no performance, no interest. Im really sorry but to me motorcycles are supposed to be a bit basic. I'm talking road bikes here, not much you can do with that sort of stuff out of cell phone reception in Haast Pass, when it shits itself.

[Shaun]

That messing around with high tech suspension is only relevant to the track is as big a misconception as any that I have heard. There are plenty of BMW owners out there who have purchased high quality suspension with a very wide adjustment range and have successfully overcome such issues.

Those that have sampled high quality suspension will vehemently disagree that high tech is unneccesary for the road.


Sorry, but I have, and comfortably disagree that High tech is neccesary for the road.

After market is deffinately better, but std will not kill you or others- it may slow you down a bit, but is that such a bad thing.

Spending more time at a track day, and learning your self and bike more, would be a much wiser and safer advantage.

Bugger, probally just lost myself more shock sales

[Edbear]

...ask an industry expert before committing to something that on th face of it is a quick fix. You may be surprised how approachable we are, and that every communication does not have to be a sale!

Good point, Robert! It does amuse me to see poster's disagreeing with you...


As has been pointed out though they have financial constraints as in they need to make money,what i find more amusing is people that have no idea if there standard suspension is good or bad but change it anyway then ride in such a way that the standard suspenders would have been well adequate.

A good point, too! I feel that while my standard suspension is adequate for my riding, even two-up, a top-shelf suspension setup may be wasted on me. I mean I thought my '89 GSX-F600 handled pretty well...


... When you actually ride a motorcycle with top shelf suspension components on it that are set up specifically for you it is then that you realise just how average standard suspension is. Anyone who says different is actually in a state of denial. ...When I worked for the NZ Yamaha distributor as their technical manager I was prepared to believe that the original suspension was ''excellent'' Having now worked with suspension for over 22 years and distributing the worlds No 1 suspension product I now know quite different.

As I indicated above, I have yet to ride a bike with top-shelf components properly set up, so have nothing to compare. I know that should I get to ride such a bike, I may then realise how average mine is. I don't comment on thechnical matters about which I know little, preferring to defer to those who do, such as you and Shaun. I seem to recall you recommending to those championing standard suspensions to actually ride a bike set up by suspension experts...?

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry, but I have, and comfortably disagree that High tech is neccesary for the road.

After market is deffinately better, but std will not kill you or others- it may slow you down a bit, but is that such a bad thing.

Spending more time at a track day, and learning your self and bike more, would be a much wiser and safer advantage.

Bugger, probally just lost myself more shock sales

We are NOT always talking about speed! More compliance, control and preload adjustabilty for varying loads is EXACTLY what many road riders are looking for, be they BMW riders ( that have just been disparigingly referred to )or on any other brand of bike.

It is a big misconception that top shelf aftermarket shocks are all about racing and track days.

[Edbear]

...Spending more time at a track day, and learning your self and bike more, would be a much wiser and safer advantage.

Bugger, probally just lost myself more shock sales

Well, maybe not, mate! Over the three and a half years I had the GSX-F600 and became more confident in my riding, I naturally increased my corner speed from Nana pace to somewhere near average and the better I became as a rider, and the more familiar I became with the bike, the more aware I became of the limits of the standard suspension. So doing track days and becoming better riders, should rather, make the rider aware of the shortcomings of the stock suspension leading to a desire to improve it!

After 12 months with the Boulevard, I am relaxed and comfortable and can throw it around to its limits. I know it would benefit from better suspension, but cost is the current limiter. So I ride it within its, (and the wife's!), limits.

[Robert Taylor]

Well, maybe not, mate! Over the three and a half years I had the GSX-F600 and became more confident in my riding, I naturally increased my corner speed from Nana pace to somewhere near average and the better I became as a rider, and the more familiar I became with the bike, the more aware I became of the limits of the standard suspension. So doing track days and becoming better riders, should rather, make the rider aware of the shortcomings of the stock suspension leading to a desire to improve it!

After 12 months with the Boulevard, I am relaxed and comfortable and can throw it around to its limits. I know it would benefit from better suspension, but cost is the current limiter. So I ride it within its, (and the wife's!), limits.

Good post! That is exactly what happens, its a case of being positive about all the possibilities for improvement OR you can be negative and knock those who aspire to improvement.

[jonbuoy]

If you have those glorified bicycle ball bearings in your head races its well worth thinking about upgrading to tapered steering head bearings.

[Shaun]

Well, maybe not, mate! Over the three and a half years I had the GSX-F600 and became more confident in my riding, I naturally increased my corner speed from Nana pace to somewhere near average and the better I became as a rider, and the more familiar I became with the bike, the more aware I became of the limits of the standard suspension. So doing track days and becoming better riders, should rather, make the rider aware of the shortcomings of the stock suspension leading to a desire to improve it!

After 12 months with the Boulevard, I am relaxed and comfortable and can throw it around to its limits. I know it would benefit from better suspension, but cost is the current limiter. So I ride it within its, (and the wife's!), limits.

Your reply to this, is exactually what I am Saying! you say, after 3 years, you learned the limits of your bike, as you increased your own rider input!

So you grew to know your bike limits:clap: Well done

[Shaun]

If you have those glorified bicycle ball bearings in your head races its well worth thinking about upgrading to tapered steering head bearings.




Deffinately mate!!!!!!!! ALL BALLS stearing head bearing kits are brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GSVR]

Might learn something here.

What is the prefered bearing for steering head bearings?

Angular contact ball bearings or tapered cylindrical roller bearings.

I know what my answer and reasoning is. jonbuoy may be able to give his?

[sinfull]

Found this site somewhere and it looks like a go, but of course someone as illiterate as me would have to read it a doz times first ! http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSuspensionSetup.htm

Know that the triumphs suspension is lacking when it comes to adjustment and revaulving is commonplace but money is a factor here and would like to have it a bit better for the track day on may 16th
Couple of questions though
A/ should someone like me even be trying to set up my suspension ?
B/ where the hell is the rebound adjustment screw on the 1050's front forks ?
C/ Just bought the bike and its an insurance job after being binned (no serious damage, ridden it a bit and it just dont feel right in the front, feels like rebound, could it be too much rebound that caused the bin ???

[nodrog]

?
B/ where the hell is the rebound adjustment screw on the 1050's front forks ?
???

both at the top off the forks, one fork is rebound, one fork is compression.

yep its weird :blink:

[Shaun]

Found this site somewhere and it looks like a go, but of course someone as illiterate as me would have to read it a doz times first ! http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSuspensionSetup.htm

Know that the triumphs suspension is lacking when it comes to adjustment and revaulving is commonplace but money is a factor here and would like to have it a bit better for the track day on may 16th
Couple of questions though
A/ should someone like me even be trying to set up my suspension ?
B/ where the hell is the rebound adjustment screw on the 1050's front forks ?
C/ Just bought the bike and its an insurance job after being binned (no serious damage, ridden it a bit and it just dont feel right in the front, feels like rebound, could it be too much rebound that caused the bin ???


Could have been sus set up that caused the bin, cannot say for sure without checking the bike over!

You stated track day on May 16? If that is the Moto-tt day, I will be attending it, and check over the set up with you if you want me too?

Just PM or text me, to book some time, I get very busy on those days helping loads of people.

[Shaun]

Might learn something here.

What is the prefered bearing for steering head bearings?

Angular contact ball bearings or tapered cylindrical roller bearings.

I know what my answer and reasoning is. jonbuoy may be able to give his?



I prefer to use the tapered Cylindrical bearings, the load is shared better ( A bigger contact patch area) over the stearing head bearings races I believe.

[sinfull]

Could have been sus set up that caused the bin, cannot say for sure without checking the bike over!

You stated track day on May 16? If that is the Moto-tt day, I will be attending it, and check over the set up with you if you want me too?

Just PM or text me, to book some time, I get very busy on those days helping loads of people.

Cheers Shaun, could deffinately do with a hand getting it right ! Will pm ya


both at the top off the forks, one fork is rebound, one fork is compression.

yep its weird :blink:

Now thats just crazy lol had to go have another look And will pull the thing out into some light now to try and figure how they working that lol