'Teaching' the learner

[BiK3RChiK]

I don't know how it is for other learners, but for me, I have to be in the right frame of mind to be 'taught'. Impromptu lessons don't generally work for me. Tips I can take, but don't give me a 'lesson'...

Yesterday, I was invited on a ride with some other ladies. Story I was told was that there was another learner rider who wanted to get in some riding with other ladies at a reasonable pace (not too fast), so it would be a good ride for me to come along on. Oh, good, I say, because I'm not really onto it today, but that sounds nice....

Now, yesterday I wasn't in a riding mood really. The day before I had banged my head and after a good nights sleep I still had a slight headache. Also, I was supposed to be working, but a breakdown on my work vehicle put paid to that. So, after having spent most of the morning getting grease all over myself, the phone rings and I get invited on this ride. Hubby says to go for it... so I do.

Once all 5 of us meet up and we get out riding, at our first break, I find I'm getting 'instruction' from one particular rider. Okay, I can take some tips and she looks like a very experienced rider. BUT, at almost every stop thereafter, she rabbits on at me like I know nothing, and in a manner that what she has to say I would never have heard before, and yadda, yadda, yadda...... on it bloody goes! I tuned out..... The lady who invited me, even said to me on the way home, I should try to extend myself on back country roads like we were riding on! NO, I DON'T WANT TO TODAY!!!!

I just wanted to go out for a little ride, not to be given 'the learn', but to enjoy myself! Now, I feel like I don't want to ride with them again because I didn't have a fun ride at all, yet I know I could learn from them.

Do any other learners ever find themselves in a similar situation? How do you handle it?

[Vagabond]

Just tell them when you want help you'll ask for it!
or
I like to learn the hard way!

They should get the message real quick. Haha

[Maki]

If the advice is unwanted, then just try to ignore it as politely as possible and maybe try changing the subject. Like, "oh what a gorgeous view", or "where should we stop for a snack", or "I like the color of her bike", or what is the highest gear you can do roll on wheelies on your bike"?. If she persists you could ask her to teach you some stoppies and demonstrate clutch wheelies or something. I think she will get the message.

[homer]

yeah totally , try a come back that shows more advanced info that shes giving you .
like mentioned , emergency breaking , body position , break wear , just to take the pushy points off you

[Jantar]

Good post, BiK3RChiK. This is one of the reasons why the Mentor program is getting a complete overhaul. People learn at their own pace, and unless they are learning from a trained instructor they should never be given, nor accept, "lessons".

The best way to learn is to enjoy your riding; ask questions about techniques when you are ready for them, accept the odd "tip" about improving your riding, and basically enjoy your experience.

A trained instructor in any field, knows how to evaluate what you are doing right, as well as what you are doing wrong. And when giving lessons will concentrate on a single skill on any one day. Being told too much information in a single lesson leads to student overload, and if the student is already feeling a bit low, will just turn them off completely.

[Oakie]

It was just differing expectations. Your 'trainer' expected that her role was as an instructor. You expected just to be going for a low key ride. On that occasion you didn't know what to expect. Now you do so in similar circumstances at another ride just communicate your expectations before the ride begins.

Mrs Oakie had the same thing happen to her. Pissed her off a lot so I know where you're coming from.

[Mom]

On another note, learner rider or otherwise, no one should be pressured to change the way they are riding on a given day. Confidence is built slowly, sometimes you feel no progress is being made then all of a sudden something clicks.

I have experienced people pushing me to do something I am not comfortable doing, probably caused them no end of frustration when I simply ignored their advice and gesturing and continued to ride the way I wanted to.

[serious4]

Unwanted advise can be a hard pill to swallow sometimes. It sounds like they're just trying to help but I think the main advise giver could do with pulling her head in.
I'd definitely give them another chance but. If it happens again just politely tell the b---t to shut the f--k up.

[martybabe]

Hahha, babe it sounds like it was o poo day.Cant relate to getting the learn from bikers but my mate took me skiing and tried to teach me stuff all the time so much so it was like constant criticism not teaching at all.

In the end I did what was mentioned earlier, made it quite clear in an over the top paddy,that whilst I appreciate what he was trying to do,his constant overwhelming criticism/teaching wasn't working for me,so could we turn it round so that if I wanted help or advice I would ask for it, or he could have a clip round the earhole, his choice. We did just that and it worked well, i gave him ample opportunity to feel good about himself for educating such a ski dick and in the mean time practiced well without constant harassment.

Because your good at something does not make you a good teacher and because your not as proficient at something it's not an invitation to a 24 hour lecture by a know it all.

Enjoy your riding M,there are loads of other groups that may suit better. I'm sure they meant well but damn it comes over as so superior and condicending sometimes doesn't it. :hug:

[Disco Dan]

There's "Fixers/teachers" and "listeners".

[fireliv]

I agree, you have to be in the right frame of mind to have a lesson, otherwise you just wont take it in anyway. Also it depends on who the lesson is coming from ie, is the advice they are giving you accurate? What sort of rider are they? What kind of learning style suits you as such?? For example when I was working on my lines, heaps of people were giving me verbal tips, which I understood but didnt "get". It took the way that 1 guy said it, and then me following him round at a speed that he knew I could ride at to actually get it! Now I have riders commenting on my lines being really good (but I'm still slow!)

If I'm getting a lesson that I dont want, I just smile politely and leave it at that. I know whose advice I trust and stick with that!

[martybabe]

For example when I was working on my lines, heaps of people were giving me verbal tips, which I understood but didnt "get".

Hell yes. Well said.
My retort to my skiing instructor ." I know what your words mean,I studied English and thank you for speaking slower so that I can understand you better, you sanctimonious,condecending Poo pile, I am not 'getting' it". :angry2:

[CookMySock]

You gotta speak up, miss. "Thanks, but no thanks."

DB

[yungatart]

I've never had the problem, so I don't really know how I would react, but something along the lines of DB's or Mom's suggestions probably.

Not every ride has to be a "lesson" and sometimes you can just try too hard.
Close your ears and ride your own ride!

[The Pastor]

that time of the month eh?

[Monamie]

I know where you are coming from-if you aren't in the `learning frame of mind'. Especially coming from another learner.... I mean to say....we should know where we are in the pecknig order:whistle:

I have been lucky with my many `mentors' - they only say what is necessary and when, then basically leave me to it. I know that if I need a :girlfight:-they will give one and they know I will take it too.:2thumbsup
I liken it a bit to the horse riding set that I am in-there are many ways to handle a horse-some work for one horse and other horses will kick the shit out of you if even try it:angry2:. Each discipline has its merits be it western, english etc.
Most importantly....the learning never ends.....just listen and weed out the bullshit:lol:

[Jiminy]

For me, when I'm in a bad riding day, I know it and don't need someone to tell me about it. And one tip at a time is enough, there are only so many things one can improve at a time.

[BiK3RChiK]

It was probably as much to do with my frame of mind, as it was her 'tutoring'. I understood I was going on a ride with some other ladies, because one other learner (turns out she has her restricted) wanted some riding time. From my perspective, the ride turned out I was getting the 'tutoring' which was most unwelcome from my end!

A whole bunch of things had me on the back foot to start off with, but next time, if I go on a ride with her, I'll be better prepared! I'm not saying, I don't intend to learn anything from her because she clearly is a good rider. However, I think it a bit odd that she could give so much instruction when she was the lead rider! BTW, I'd never met her before, and only knew 2 of the other riders.

Thanks for the support guys...

M

[McJim]

Yeah - I can relate to a few posts in this thread. I've had a few people give me advice on riding some of it good, some of it stupid, I like to think I took the good and disregarded the stupid.
I can also relate to the comments where you simply cannot understand the instructor's terminology. I've had one instructor where I just didn't have a clue what he meant despite knowing what all the words were in their own right. The combinations he used just didn't make any sence in the context of motorcycles.

I'll definately go with the expectation management comment though - you should have said "I'm just out for a relaxed ride in relaxed company, not tuition thanks"

[DingoZ]

Aye, have had that happen to me ONCE. And by someone who is barely more than a learner themselves..

Haven't done it since. And if they did would get told to FUCK RIGHT OFF..

I have asked for advice from a few people, and a few others have given advice freely, but all of them with the exception of the above mentioned tosser, I have listened to, as the advice has been worthwhile, and has been given in a friendly helpful way, and not condescending in the least.

[CookMySock]

And if they did would get told to FUCK RIGHT OFF..yeah and that is the other extreme isn't it. That type of viciousness ruins the ride for everyone instantly, and is no less destructive that the first type. more ?

I am seeing two things - not everyone on a group ride is going to be compatible, and there are consequences (to other people) for your actions - think. A lesson/reminder for me also.

DB

[DingoZ]

yeah and that is the other extreme isn't it. That type of viciousness ruins the ride for everyone instantly, and is no less destructive that the first type. more ?

I am seeing two things - not everyone on a group ride is going to be compatible, and there are consequences (to other people) for your actions - think. A lesson/reminder for me also.

DB

So you are saying I am vicious. Let me clarify what exactly would happen.." They would not get told within the hearing of anyone else, and it would be done at the completion of the ride. They would simply be ignored until such time as would be appropriate for the conversation to had one on one."


I went on a grp ride, where the mentioned tosser was crossing the centreline, more than 30 times, and running hot into corners, and then was preaching to others on the ride on how to ride. If at any stage someone in the grp threatens my safety or their own by their style of riding I will tell them. Consequences or not. Ride ruined or not.....Don't like that don't ride with me, I would expect the same treatment if I was doing something which endangered other riders or made them uncomfortable.

And just for interest sake. NOT VICIOUS, just blunt and straight out.

[Nasty]

So you are saying I am vicious. ...

And just for interest sake. NOT VICIOUS, just blunt and straight out.

I think that calling your methods vicious is rather interesting ... as i don't think you are that way at all ... not subtle however .. I would have thought straightforward and blunt!

I personally like that from people ... don't pussyfoot around .. if you don't like something then say so ...

[ManDownUnder]

For me it comes down to motivation. I can't be taught unless I want to learn - the second half of the sentence is the most important.

If I'm not in the mood, or not suitably inspired then I'm not going to learn as well... it's a waste of everyones time, and if it's not why you are there (per your example) then you're even less likely to learn.

Imagine having an interest in Maths. You're good at it but... it's not hellishly exciting so you're not sure if you want to make a decent go of it. So you head out to find someone that might be interested in further education...

===scenario 1===
You start talking to a guy that turns out to be pretty interested in it too... he's an Astronaut (or insert really cool profession of your choice here) and the adventures he's had are simply incredible.

He tells you his ticket to his job was maths, and while he enjoyed it like you, he had no idea how far it would take him.

That's motivation! Enough to pull you along - the vision and the prospects are fascinating, and if all you have to do is work on something you're good at anyway...!

===scenario 2===
Now imagine it's just me, plain old MDU. I do have an interest in maths, but it's kinda ok and it didn't really get be anywhere. I AM interested though and can talk about it at length...

Thats' less motivation - if YOU wanted to make a go of it, you'd need to choose to do it, find a goal you want to achieve and chase it.

===scenario 3===
Now imagine you're talking to someone more interested in Shakespear, they know you're interested in progressing yourself, and they try to talk you into a dissection of King Henry IV part II. That's not what you were there for, and you lose interest real fast
===

Back to learning to ride. Find someone you respect for their abilities, and their style. When you're in the mood to learn - do it.

Don't be pushed into learning... it's the best demotivator there is (how many kids had music lessons THRUST onto them and subsequently lost all interest in playing/learning...?). That's my view on it anyway...

[nivram]

Being a newbie I've come across my fair share of advice some of it very useful and has helped my riding heaps. And I've been other the other end of where I've been given advice again from riders how have little experience or are still learners themselves but for some reason they think there seasoned riders and end up giving poor\dangerous advice. Still on my 6R I still have a lot to learn and I'm always looking for ways to improve.

You just take on board want you want and ignore the crap, the use of the Bull Sh!t filter works well and some common sense.

[avgas]

Some people natter on because it boosts their own self esteem. Don't listen to them - if someone was really trying to teach you they would tell you once, wait for you to fuck up then remind you that you were told. After that point you will listen to everything the first time.

[JMemonic]

For example when I was working on my lines, heaps of people were giving me verbal tips, which I understood but didnt "get". It took the way that 1 guy said it, and then me following him round at a speed that he knew I could ride at to actually get it!

What Liv said is possibly the best, lots of folks give advise, or lectures then don't back it up, the worst is those that say things in a manner of I am better than you so do as I say instead of hey I noticed ... and I used to have the same problem and this is how I fixed it, it might work for you it might not. Talk not tell, listen don't yell, I have covered this off before but don't have time to search the thread right now.

Dont let others put you off riding (god that sounds like me telling you)

[CookMySock]

Angrily yelling at someone to "FUCK RIGHT OFF" is vicious. Those were your capitals, and I therefore I might safely assume, your shouting. They were surely your words. There is no place for that type of behaviour on any group ride, and I would suggest there is no place for that type of particularly distasteful behaviour anyplace. Nasty.

DB

[mstriumph]

c'mon fellas - arguing amongst ourselves isn't helpful to BiK3RChiK?

hmmmmm - let's see

the trick being to stop the more experienced rider giving you unwanted advice and pissing YOU off
without pissing HER off to the extent that she won't help you in the future when you'd be only too glad for her advice......

hmmm

i'm not much of a diplomat but how about something along the lines of

"damn - your's is just the sort of helpful advice i need - unfortunately i've got a filthy headache at the moment and just can't take it in ........
any chance of getting your phone number and calling you to get together for a bit of a training run when i'm feeling better?"

[Grub]

Well whatever you do, don't get instruction from Sketchy_Racer! Put his g/f on his traillie on Sunday at the buckets didn't he. Pointed her towards a 20m ravine - which she promptly rode into.

It was kind of funny really, kind of. She's ok, a bit scratched, probably not too happy with him and the bike was finally retrieved with only a broken clutch.

[DingoZ]

Angrily yelling at someone to "FUCK RIGHT OFF" is vicious. Those were your capitals, and I therefore I might safely assume, your shouting. They were surely your words. There is no place for that type of behaviour on any group ride, and I would suggest there is no place for that type of particularly distasteful behaviour anyplace. Nasty.

DB

Capitals to emphasise a point. USed those words to Empasise a point. (as a figure of speech) They would be politley (And if you knew me, would agree I am not nasty in how I speak to others), told that the advice was unwanted and unappreciated....

And you didn't read properly. It would not be done on the ride, but rather at the completion, with no one else in hearing..

[CookMySock]

Sorry. :whistle:

"No thanks, I just want to ride today (smile)" is enough of a reminder to me when it's my transgression - sometimes it has been. That is usually quite a shock to me if someone says that. If that doesn't work, try the scratched-record approach, progressing to the scratched-record+annoyed look approach. If they don't get that, then try the "look, I'm telling you nicely to fuck off" approach, then FINALLY proceed to the DingoZ "BE REALLY RUDE" approach, but only when absolutely necessary.

It's hard for many ladies to speak up. They feel as if they cannot, or should not, but they must know that they can speak up, and I'll give a mock "telling-off" with pat and a wink if they don't. :nono: ;) :love: but sometimes that backfires even.. :( oh well..

DB