2005 600cc Sport production results

[Shaun]

would any one have officual results of the first 2 rounds of the champs for 600 class in 2005?

[HDTboy]

Ruapuna December 04 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=54574)
Teretonga December 04 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=55083)
Manfeild February 05 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=59593)
Pukekohe February 05 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=60265)

[Shaun]

Ruapuna December 04 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=54574)
Teretonga December 04 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=55083)
Manfeild February 05 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=59593)
Pukekohe February 05 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=60265)




Check out Andrew Strouds results, in the Ruapuna and Teretonga rounds

He was using a stock standard shock, that comes with the bike std!

Man he is good!

[Robert Taylor]

Check out Andrew Strouds results, in the Ruapuna and Teretonga rounds

He was using a stock standard shock, that comes with the bike std!

Man he is good!

Yes indeed he is ( politely )a freak but he was also awaiting his aftermarket shock at that very time so he could go faster. Given the development that has carried through since and that other riders have lifted their game it would take a very brave man to bet on that happening again. ( just look at how laptimes have tumbled ) Correct me if Im wrong but I also think that Ruapuna round may have been damp meaning you have more chance of being competitive with a soft rear shock with low ride height.

All else being equal he would have circulated faster with a well setup aftermarket shock and frankly his main competition were not ''on their game'' at that time, at least one recovering from a debilitating sickness. So your post is a little economical with the truth.

In Supersport 600 WSBK no-one runs stock rear shocks, they wouldnt be competitive.

I struggle to understand why you posted this thread?

[HDTboy]

I struggle to understand why you posted this thread?
Maybe Shaun's been doing some light reading. :Pokey:

[Shaun]

Yes indeed he is ( politely )a freak but he was also awaiting his aftermarket shock at that very time so he could go faster. Given the development that has carried through since and that other riders have lifted their game it would take a very brave man to bet on that happening again. ( just look at how laptimes have tumbled ) Correct me if Im wrong but I also think that Ruapuna round may have been damp meaning you have more chance of being competitive with a soft rear shock with low ride height.

All else being equal he would have circulated faster with a well setup aftermarket shock and frankly his main competition were not ''on their game'' at that time, at least one recovering from a debilitating sickness. So your post is a little economical with the truth.

In Supersport 600 WSBK no-one runs stock rear shocks, they wouldnt be competitive.

I struggle to understand why you posted this thread?





Boring Robert! We spoke about this idea personally yesterday morning, and I said to you, I think this would be a good way to creat a leed in class to the 600 feild, and keep the bike building cost down by up to $10K Nothing economical with my post at all _ IT WAS FACT AND IS FACT.

You sited, that the rest of world is different, and we should follow suit, I said Bollocks, there is not riders here good enough to really make it on the world scene ( A couple maybe) and as it is, our 600 class rules, do not even work together with Australia, so we cannot even take an even bike over there.

So what is the point of trying to get 18 year old kids ( Learning stars) to spend the money required to build a top spec NZ bike- NONE

Suspension package alone is gunna cost in the range of $5500, complete race pipe $3000, etc, Footrest kits $400.ECU $ 1000 bla bla bla

Stop being so god dam deffensive of your product, and some time start your own thread on this site, instead of just trolling onto whatever everyone else says would ya, we all know how good it can be, BUT IT IS NOT 100% NEEDED

[Robert Taylor]

Boring Robert! We spoke about this idea personally yesterday morning, and I said to you, I think this would be a good way to creat a leed in class to the 600 feild, and keep the bike building cost down by up to $10K Nothing economical with my post at all _ IT WAS FACT AND IS FACT.

You sited, that the rest of world is different, and we should follow suit, I said Bollocks, there is not riders here good enough to really make it on the world scene ( A couple maybe) and as it is, our 600 class rules, do not even work together with Australia, so we cannot even take an even bike over there.

So what is the point of trying to get 18 year old kids ( Learning stars) to spend the money required to build a top spec NZ bike- NONE

Suspension package alone is gunna cost in the range of $5500, complete race pipe $3000, etc, Footrest kits $400.ECU $ 1000 bla bla bla

Stop being so god dam deffensive of your product, and some time start your own thread on this site, instead of just trolling onto whatever everyone else says would ya, we all know how good it can be, BUT IT IS NOT 100% NEEDED

Naturally I disagree ( for very sound reasons )but what I find VERY perplexing is a dredge of posts over the last few months would reveal some very contradictory and mixed messages. And this last one that was ''economical'' was frankly a little mischievous in its intent and you knew only too damn well that it would earn a response.
It is indeed possible to upgrade the oem stuff but they will not reach the levels of high quality aftermarket, performance will not be as stable and myriad other factors such as inability to adjust ride height quickly come into play. And dont even think about proposing same for Superbike, the issues there( as you well realise ) become somewhat exaggerated. But given that the power of 600s increases every year ( and therefore issues of tyre wear and chassis control ) I think it would be a backward step to go back to oem units only, at least in the premier 600 class. What is also overlooked is that purchasing good quality aftermarket suspension is not once only dead money as a very strong second hand resale market exists. In real terms NZ riders cannot complain because they get a higher level of service at lower cost than other countries.
Further, when I look into what it will cost to PROPERLY respec oem units with springs, spring adaptation pieces, revalves ( maybe pistons ) and checkvalve shaftjets etc the ''saving'' is not going to be highly significant. But in all fairness I am going to analyse this further and will reserve final judgement.
What you are saying will be music to the ears of some but I fear that the full implications are not fully realised. I have no wish to launch into a great long diatribe for the very reasons that you defended me in another thread, mainly time. If you also do a dredge of my threads you will find that I have offered a LOT of help to people, primarily. And as you say in my own time. And yes, I have found it neccessary to defend at times because of either mischief or I guess the great NZ knocking machine.

[Shaun]

Naturally I disagree ( for very sound reasons )but what I find VERY perplexing is a dredge of posts over the last few months would reveal some very contradictory and mixed messages. And this last one that was ''economical'' was frankly a little mischievous in its intent and you knew only too damn well that it would earn a response.
It is indeed possible to upgrade the oem stuff but they will not reach the levels of high quality aftermarket, performance will not be as stable and myriad other factors such as inability to adjust ride height quickly come into play. And dont even think about proposing same for Superbike, the issues there( as you well realise ) become somewhat exaggerated. But given that the power of 600s increases every year ( and therefore issues of tyre wear and chassis control ) I think it would be a backward step to go back to oem units only, at least in the premier 600 class. What is also overlooked is that purchasing good quality aftermarket suspension is not once only dead money as a very strong second hand resale market exists. In real terms NZ riders cannot complain because they get a higher level of service at lower cost than other countries.
Further, when I look into what it will cost to PROPERLY respec oem units with springs, spring adaptation pieces, revalves ( maybe pistons ) and checkvalve shaftjets etc the ''saving'' is not going to be highly significant. But in all fairness I am going to analyse this further and will reserve final judgement.
What you are saying will be music to the ears of some but I fear that the full implications are not fully realised. I have no wish to launch into a great long diatribe for the very reasons that you defended me in another thread, mainly time. If you also do a dredge of my threads you will find that I have offered a LOT of help to people, primarily. And as you say in my own time. And yes, I have found it neccessary to defend at times because of either mischief or I guess the great NZ knocking machine.





OK DAD, I will stop trying to help our sport by getting everyones oppinion, and young up and coming riders then, and leave them all to you

[Robert Taylor]

OK DAD, I will stop trying to help our sport by getting everyones oppinion, and young up and coming riders then, and leave them all to you

No you miss the point and being patronising is not a becoming quality! We are all trying to help the sport ( ! ) and have the track records to back that statement up. But I dont think enough homework is ever done re the overall technical implications and decisions are often made without adequate conultation. I also cannot help the feeling that if you actually have an intimate understanding of the internals of suspension units and lots of experience there is almost a sector of society that is ( effectively )condescending about it. Those are the vibes that I get.

[Shaun]

NO you miss the point, you are a technician importer, ( Not a dam english teacher, and fuck off with your Patronising remarks) I am an x rider who has history and pedigree with you and many other suspension techs around the world, Including Ohlins direct when I was a 250 Grand prix team manger many years ago, K-Teck in the UK, and others, and still have the references you wrote for me, to try and become a test rider direct for Ohlin;s, OK this did not work out, But you had enough faith in me then, So why hassle me when I am just looking into idea's to try and help our sport grow more. O that is it, Ohlins NZ would loose some sales, BUGGER.

How many riders were on the grid this year in NZ, with fully sponsored suspension from you?

I have been an officuall test rider for the BRITTEN team, and have been employed many times over seas over the years, to be a test rider for people, to try and help develop there bikes settings, for there riders, who cannot give the feed back required to develop it further. Jamie Whitham is one bike I set up with Mick Grant for him.

So honestly, I am just looking at all options ( Apart from just making money) to try and help develop our sport further, and to show as many people that want to try it, that STD can be made work ok, NOT AS GOOD AS Aftermarket, AS I KEEP SAYING, but it is good.

I would doubt that out of 1000 riders in NZ, that 50 of them, could honestly push after market Race spec gear to the limits of it on the road, ( I COULD, But only in places like Wanganui) in a racing enviroment. Not just generall road hoons, which yes, I did go out on regually with my race bikes for a blast

Yea, so After market will make the generall ride better, ride height control ( Make a spacer)

SAGS, ( CHANGE YOUR SPRINGS) Hard to find, but can be found.

BASIC STD SET UP WELL, WILL WORK VERY WELL ON THE ROADS!!

Or am I wrong or misinformed, that the 1000 I won on at the TT, had different springs and oil weight ONLY- O yes, it did have a STD Ohlins rear shock in it, I guess that was what made the STD modified front work eh:Playnice:

[slowpoke]

our 600 class rules, do not even work together with Australia, so we cannot even take an even bike over there.



Our Supersport rules don't tie in with Australian Supersport rules but Australia also has a Superstock class, which is basically 600's with very limited modifications....compared to Supersport machines they are much like Pro Twins are to F3 bikes in NZ. It sounds very much like what you've got in mind Shaun.

[Teambwr47]

Blimey you two have some spats on here don't you.....

Its like father and son sometimes.... Shaun i can see you value Roberts knowledge and expertise as a technician, while Robert.... well your replies are so restrained to some of the jibes, that you must have the patience of a saint.

Shaun i can see you're very keen to help riders here in NZ progress and a rider of your experience getting involved in such a fashion is nothing but commendable.

Just as well we all know that you two do actually get on ok most of the time because if we didn't, based on some of the posts here, there'd be a crowd at the circuits waiting the fistycuffs to break out.:whistle:

[Bren_chch]

I have been an officuall test rider for the BRITTEN team, and have been employed many times over seas over the years, to be a test rider for people, to try and help develop there bikes settings, for there riders, who cannot give the feed back required to develop it further. Jamie Whitham is one bike I set up with Mick Grant for him.

now this is exactly why i asked you to please add your profile to my road racing profile website, so people can read your interesting race history, sheeesh!!! how hard is it... sign up! www.visordown.co.nz people are genuinly interested to read about all past and present racer bio's!!

:jerry:

[Bren_chch]

fuck it!

PS: I really like the idea of a stock series!!! I was lucky enuff to be given a pretty road std 2006 gsxr1000 to compete in the nationals and with the only mods being a airfilter, a slipon and WP front and rear suspension, I was over the moon to be able to compete in the series on a 12 -14k bike + tires! I had a ball, i'd never even been on a superbike until 3 weeks before the nationals started yet i still managed to get a 1:34 around ruapuna, which to be honest is pretty farken fast!!! and considering i'd only ever rode on timaru and ruapuna on my old cbr i set some pretty respectable times on the other circuits!! i'd done a few clubmans rounds on my 1992 cbr900rr and half a season of bucket racing, mixed with pre82 and then to be offered the chance to race in the nationals on a pretty std bike was BRILLIANT in my eyes, other people thought... whats the point, it got no HP and its pretty std!!

Anyhow my point being that there is actually a lot of tallent out there but the talent cant get the chance to shine because of the class costs for serious racing, the amount of experience i gained doing the national rounds was huge and i couldnt put a price on its worth!! I cant afford to do nationals again because the bikes been sold and I couldnt afford a new one, if i did it again i'd for sure want one of the k7's used this season gone, by ray etc... but anyhow if there was a superstock type support class for the 600 or 1000 than i'd really have a chance of competing on a limited budget and i am sure a lot of other people would want to try too!

ok my rant is a little off track but, its something i am passionate about, its going to be even harder to compete as a single when the new bikes come along with traction control etc!

and as for Andrew on the std shock, he is the man legend!! On nationals day 1 practice at ruapuna he even took time out from his practicing to show me around the track with lines / braking, well anything he could! it was fantastic!!!

bah over and out!

[Robert Taylor]

Lets get this straight!

1) Shaun and I do indeed get on pretty well most of the time, we just seem to do our arguing on this forum!

2) It is totally acknowledged that his historical riding skills are excellent and that when he was racing competitively we worked well in optimising the suspension settings together.

3) In the context of 2) above Shaun is not the only top rider that I have had the pleasure of working with and believe me they are all very different. We did a lot of work with Andrew Stroud this season and found his analytical skills to be excellent, indeed Ohlins offered him a job many years back. As another example Robbie Bugden through the season was loathe to change anything even though we insisted we could improve a couple of areas with his bike that could be improved.

4) Stock suspension can be ''externally optimised'' to the rider but you do reach the limits pretty quickly. Particularly if the weight of the rider is ''challenging'' at either extremity.

5) Stock suspension can be improved substanially with internal work and beyond that with selected internal parts. Heck we did exactly that today with a set of older GSXR1000 forks, we modified the stock pistons and revalved. Realtively low cost job, great bang for buck. Candidly we also modified a set of Ohlins forks that are stock fitment in a 1098S.
AGAIN, you get to a certain level of improvement.

6) As I stated in a previous post we are analysing just how much we can improve oem suspension units with selected internal parts. Our shock dyno will assist no end in that endeavour as we have a huge database of Ohlins damping curves that we can attempt to mimic. Frankly though it doesnt excite me about ( maybe ) revalving oem units trackside as they are a whole lot less user friendly to service very quickly than purpose built high quality race shocks. ( This is just one of the many issues that has to be accounted for )

7) If you want the ultimate improvement then high quality high performance aftermarket suspension units are the answer. And there are just some bikes (e.g Hyosung 650, sorry guys ) where you just have to start with a clean sheet of paper.

8) I am not a racer but did ride large capacity road bikes through the 70s and 80s and still test ride the odd bike, so do have a feel for the dynamics. But I have made it my mission in life to abundantly understand the internal function of suspension units and to that end our facility is at the cutting edge in NZ. I really dont want to add up how much I have spent over the years to travel to Sweden to attend Ohlins training courses, also to the US for Race Tech, also to Traxxion Dynamics. Add to that decades of experience.

9) When I reply to a post it is invariably ( and I really hope this doesnt in any way sound arrogant ) because I have had direct experience with the type of suspension unit or model specific problem. If I sometimes sound abrupt then I apologise but it is normally a liturgy of cold hard facts. Use of the word MEDIOCRE may also sound harsh but it does fit as a term of relativity. Advice is offered in the spirit it is given.

10 ) I do happen to love the English language but I think it is unfair to judge people by their speech either written or one to one. Given that our standards of speech and etiquette have declined over the years I guess its a matter of biting ones tongue. I think patience and a calm demeanour are also desirable qualities, as is restraint with expletives.

If anyone at any time has suspension related questions feel free to call me by whatever form of communication. Contrary to what some contributors to this forum have mistakenly believed I do not in fact have a hard sell approach and can offer varying levels of solutions / improvements at varying costs. That is what our suspension company is in fact all about.

[Dafe]

Hey Robert, Since you've got so much experience, I guess you must be the go to man. What enhancements can you recommend to improve my ride?

[Robert Taylor]

Hey Robert, Since you've got so much experience, I guess you must be the go to man. What enhancements can you recommend to improve my ride?

When you tell me for what make and model?

[CHOPPA]

The standard bike class would have been a great idea about 2 months ago haha

Im all for keeping down the costs so i really like the idea of standard bikes. Im feely new to road racing and I have had a bike with standard suspension on the track and now one with full ohlins from robert.

I felt safe enough riding on standard suspension and if everyone else had been on the same i would have been more competitive now i have the good stuff i can really notice the diff and im extemely happy with what robert has done and i will be alot more competitive.

Pretty much what im sayin is that i was forced into buying good suspension due to the class i race and i am very happy i did considering the improvement but if there were a stock class i would have saved myself some money and still been happy with the handling of my bike

[Robert Taylor]

A little word about sponsorship as I was asked how many riders I sponsored with Ohlins suspension. For this last year actually none. The years have taught me some hard lessons about sponsorship, if you give give give you very seldom actually recieve back its a very moot point what you in real terms recieve back relevant to your investment and you certainly dont always recieve loyalty. I can in fact name some very longstanding loyal riders but by default that then effectively exposes those who havent been so, even though you may have ''loyally'' moved mountains for them.

Coinciding with my tory philosophy I now rather favour a hand up rather than a handout mentality. Over the last race season our first responsibility was to our contracted riders but we still found plenty of time to assist other riders including where neccessary full suspension repairs / revalves at no charge at meetings. If riders are using our product ( purchased from us ) they are comforted to know that at major meetings we are able to access help of that nature. That is our ''sponsorship'' and I believe it is a whole load more valuable than the traditional means. Sponsorship is not a right, it has to be earned.
Thankfully, road racing is a more mature discipline than motocross where a lot or riders almost expect sponsorship as of right.
Incidentally Ohlins AB Sweden dont sponsor anyone. Most of the MotoGP and WSBK fields use Ohlins because they want the best product and they also know that Ohlins has a full and proper race service infrastructure available.

[Robert Taylor]

When you tell me for what make and model?


The standard bike class would have been a great idea about 2 months ago haha

Im all for keeping down the costs so i really like the idea of standard bikes. Im feely new to road racing and I have had a bike with standard suspension on the track and now one with full ohlins from robert.

I felt safe enough riding on standard suspension and if everyone else had been on the same i would have been more competitive now i have the good stuff i can really notice the diff and im extemely happy with what robert has done and i will be alot more competitive.

Pretty much what im sayin is that i was forced into buying good suspension due to the class i race and i am very happy i did considering the improvement but if there were a stock class i would have saved myself some money and still been happy with the handling of my bike

To be brutally honest I think that it is a very debatable point just how much it would keep the costs down. Its no good having a stock suspension rule without at least allowing for alternative springs for rider weights at the opposite ends of the scale, and therefore the cost of purchasing. If you purchase a set of top shelf suspension you can be assured ( at least from me ) that they will be supplied with the appropriate springing at no extra cost relative to your personal stats.

Stock rear shocks have rubber bladders that seperate the gas from the oil, but by nature nitrogen ( at 10 - 12 bar pressure ) quickly migrates through the rubber bladder and areates the oil. That means the shock will fade fast and NEEDS rebuilding a whole lot more often. Cost.

A major upwards or downwards change in spring rate to accomodate varying rider weights will need a corresponding recalibration of primarily the high speed rebound valving stack so that the damping is suitable to the spring. Cost. Otherwise these riders will be disadvantaged. So how do you police this?.

More rapid tyre wear, heck we see it on track day bikes that are not ridden at 10 / 10ths Cost

Time precludes laboriously detailing myriad other reasons but suffice to say it is not an automatic bed of roses.

[roadracingoldfart]

10 ) I do happen to love the English language but I think it is unfair to judge people by their speech either written or one to one. Given that our standards of speech and etiquette have declined over the years I guess its a matter of biting ones tongue. I think patience and a calm demeanour are also desirable qualities, as is restraint with expletives.

.

Ohh i say old chap, it is extremely comforting in a hetorosexual manor to hear such a statement of claim from a gentleman like yourself. My deepest and most heartfelt contrafibulations to you good sir. Top stuff, brilliant.

[Cleve]

but what I find VERY perplexing is a dredge of posts over the last few months would reveal some very contradictory and mixed messages.

You know I have wondered the very same thing. Very perplexing indeed.

ps that is "accommodate" Mr Taylor. Apart from that I greatly admire your writing (and spelling...) and errr as a business man in his 40's your philosophy... but that is a different matter.

[CHOPPA]

To be brutally honest I think that it is a very debatable point just how much it would keep the costs down. Its no good having a stock suspension rule without at least allowing for alternative springs for rider weights at the opposite ends of the scale, and therefore the cost of purchasing. If you purchase a set of top shelf suspension you can be assured ( at least from me ) that they will be supplied with the appropriate springing at no extra cost relative to your personal stats.

Stock rear shocks have rubber bladders that seperate the gas from the oil, but by nature nitrogen ( at 10 - 12 bar pressure ) quickly migrates through the rubber bladder and areates the oil. That means the shock will fade fast and NEEDS rebuilding a whole lot more often. Cost.

A major upwards or downwards change in spring rate to accomodate varying rider weights will need a corresponding recalibration of primarily the high speed rebound valving stack so that the damping is suitable to the spring. Cost. Otherwise these riders will be disadvantaged. So how do you police this?.

More rapid tyre wear, heck we see it on track day bikes that are not ridden at 10 / 10ths Cost

Time precludes laboriously detailing myriad other reasons but suffice to say it is not an automatic bed of roses.


Well now i have the good stuff i certainly wouldnt go back! money well spent, suspension has made me faster then my titanium exhaust that looks pretty haha

[Bren_chch]

how much is a superbike to buy and then build to top NZ race spec? 40k?

How much is a gsxr1000 stock, with slipon? 16k?

how can it not be cheaper? :girlfight:

[Robert Taylor]

how much is a superbike to buy and then build to top NZ race spec? 40k?

How much is a gsxr1000 stock, with slipon? 16k?

how can it not be cheaper? :girlfight:

Try racing a GSXR1000 at top level with stock suspension and just see how fast you are going to screw tyres and how much they will understeer off turns under power because the squat control is woefully inadequate, etc etc. The questions and answers are unfortunately not a simple black and white open and shut case. As someone else effectively eluded we are no longer in the 70s. That means we no longer have ( in relative terms ) low horsepower and torque, spindly chassis and tyres and much much less load fed into the suspension. The simple fact of the matter ( whether you like it or not ) is the suspension has become much much more of a key tuning component in getting the bike around the track.
We either go back to the past and all the problems it WILL entail or we continue to embrace the technology available, as most other first world countries do. Although that in itself is a moot point as actions from several sectors of society is condemning us to lose any status as a first world country.

[Robert Taylor]

You know I have wondered the very same thing. Very perplexing indeed.

ps that is "accommodate" Mr Taylor. Apart from that I greatly admire your writing (and spelling...) and errr as a business man in his 40's your philosophy... but that is a different matter.

Please excuse the spelling as I dont use spell check and am in a hurry...

[Bren_chch]

ok so its still not hard to work out is it... u allow suspension mods, whats that for an ok front and rear setup... 5k?? so all up you could be competitive in a superstock class on a 16k bike??

You say and I qoute:

"To be brutally honest I think that it is a very debatable point just how much it would keep the costs down."

So again how much is it to buy then build a top superbike to nz spec?

Answer that and tell me its a debatable point on how much would be saved!

[HDTboy]

I saw $35000 get poured into a 600SP bike this past season, and I didn't charge for labour on it.

[Bren_chch]

I saw $35000 get poured into a 600SP bike this past season, and I didn't charge for labour on it.

Did it win? :pinch:

[Robert Taylor]

ok so its still not hard to work out is it... u allow suspension mods, whats that for an ok front and rear setup... 5k?? so all up you could be competitive in a superstock class on a 16k bike??

You say and I qoute:

"To be brutally honest I think that it is a very debatable point just how much it would keep the costs down."

So again how much is it to buy then build a top superbike to nz spec?

Answer that and tell me its a debatable point on how much would be saved!

I honestly do not know the end cost but know the absolute technical neccessity for having well set up suspension commensurate with the performance potential of the bike. Robbie Bugdens bike and his competitors a little over 6k for top shelf suspension and a steering damper that doesnt cavitate. Endless backup at in real terms very low cost, compared at least to the contract prices that Ohlins charge WSBK and MotoGp teams. That is one cost of racing at that level but in real terms its still a whole load less than auto racing.
It is extreme in NZ terms, I have one auto racing customer that has now spent 3 million on his car over the years.
But another flipside is that when such distributor bikes get sold off to privateers the upspec components almost always stay on them and the bikes are sold at prices well under the odds to their true cost. As there is a very strong market for upspec components second hand they are not ''once only dead money'' So while we may grizzle a lot here in the Siberia of the Pacific we have it pretty good in many plausible ways.

[Bren_chch]

3million! thats kind of disgusting! 3MILLION!!

Well anyhow a NZ superstock is a great idea in a perfect NZ, i watched round 1 of the FIM cup, bloody fantastic! Gareth Jones didnt do as well as he would have hoped of course, especially after his riding in NZ but i dont know much about the team he is riding for, the bike is probably a shitta.

ho hum! wednesday tomorrow! BIG WEDNESDAY! I better be getting my ticket!

Shauns gone quite... so i'll go to bed and read his comments tomorrow!

:jerry:

[JJ58]

A little word about sponsorship as I was asked how many riders I sponsored with Ohlins suspension. For this last year actually none. The years have taught me some hard lessons about sponsorship, if you give give give you very seldom actually recieve back its a very moot point what you in real terms recieve back relevant to your investment and you certainly dont always recieve loyalty. I can in fact name some very longstanding loyal riders but by default that then effectively exposes those who havent been so, even though you may have ''loyally'' moved mountains for them.

Coinciding with my tory philosophy I now rather favour a hand up rather than a handout mentality. Over the last race season our first responsibility was to our contracted riders but we still found plenty of time to assist other riders including where neccessary full suspension repairs / revalves at no charge at meetings. If riders are using our product ( purchased from us ) they are comforted to know that at major meetings we are able to access help of that nature. That is our ''sponsorship'' and I believe it is a whole load more valuable than the traditional means. Sponsorship is not a right, it has to be earned.
Thankfully, road racing is a more mature discipline than motocross where a lot or riders almost expect sponsorship as of right.
Incidentally Ohlins AB Sweden dont sponsor anyone. Most of the MotoGP and WSBK fields use Ohlins because they want the best product and they also know that Ohlins has a full and proper race service infrastructure available.

Robert, you do an excellent job and offer great assistance to the NZ motorcycling community. I agree with your tactics. I remember you helping me out with the GSX last year and I didn't even buy much off you. This year I have to pay someone $30cdn each race meeting to set my sags, if I don't then I won't get the adjustment advice I need. I hope that the NZ motorcycling community can see the benefit that you provide them and not be so tight when it comes to suspension...... It makes a huge difference and once you've ridden a well set up bike, the smiles just keep flowing.

[Tony.OK]

But another flipside is that when such distributor bikes get sold off to privateers the upspec components almost always stay on them and the bikes are sold at prices well under the odds to their true cost.

A good example of this is here (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Sports/auction-150525395.htm),Bernard racings Cudlins bike.

[Robert Taylor]

3million! thats kind of disgusting! 3MILLION!!

Well anyhow a NZ superstock is a great idea in a perfect NZ, i watched round 1 of the FIM cup, bloody fantastic! Gareth Jones didnt do as well as he would have hoped of course, especially after his riding in NZ but i dont know much about the team he is riding for, the bike is probably a shitta.

ho hum! wednesday tomorrow! BIG WEDNESDAY! I better be getting my ticket!

Shauns gone quite... so i'll go to bed and read his comments tomorrow!

:jerry:

Yes it does seem a little perverse but this guy is an exporter of an NZ made product and is a major employer of people. I dont knock wealth at all, as long as its not from rampant speculation, they are doing something truly productive and carry people along with them. Compassionate conservatism!

Yes, Gareth is tearing his hair out about his teams set up abilities or lack thereof.

[Shaun]

Blimey you two have some spats on here don't you.....

Its like father and son sometimes.... Shaun i can see you value Roberts knowledge and expertise as a technician, while Robert.... well your replies are so restrained to some of the jibes, that you must have the patience of a saint.

Shaun i can see you're very keen to help riders here in NZ progress and a rider of your experience getting involved in such a fashion is nothing but commendable.

Just as well we all know that you two do actually get on ok most of the time because if we didn't, based on some of the posts here, there'd be a crowd at the circuits waiting the fistycuffs to break out.:whistle:



There ya go mate, another way of getting more peole to the track eh< You up for it Robert?????

I do respect what Robert does a lot, HE is the best in NZ and = in the world with his work man ship and passion is probally higher than most technicians.

Yes. I am a firey little Red head shit, that often speaks before thinking it through fully, but apart of that comes from my passion for bikes full stop.

I can assure you that I am trying to find a way to shut my mouth on certain points, but when it comes to open disscusion forums like this, I will always be who I have always been.

Robert and myself DO actually get on quite well, I like him a lot, WE ARE very different, but that is the same for 90% of us, given a bit more time and co-operation, I am sure that the relationship between Robert and Myself will only grow, to every ones advantage

[Hellraiser]

So why not use contorl parts in a production series?

That way everyone is on a level playing field Tires, Suspension .... etc etc

[R1madness]

Loving all this. But a few observations to throw into the mix.

When Stroudy rode his 600 with the std shock it was DRY not damp. He said it was fine and even though we did have a WP shock to put in (turned up on the SAT morning) it was decided that we should not fit it as we had no testing time before the races.

Standard shocks would cause the lap times to go up. Bikes to circulate slower, more riders able to "keep up" with the hotrods.

600 production racing used to have to run STD shocks and forks. We didn't crash any more than they do now.

Tyres are rooted at the end of a race anyway even with the "good shocks" what difference do it make?

Every bike has a limiting factor, some my be down on power, others down on braking. Does it matter if the shock is the limiting factor if all bikes have to conform?

[GSVR]

Loving all this. But a few observations to throw into the mix.

When Stroudy rode his 600 with the std shock it was DRY not damp. He said it was fine and even though we did have a WP shock to put in (turned up on the SAT morning) it was decided that we should not fit it as we had no testing time before the races.

Standard shocks would cause the lap times to go up. Bikes to circulate slower, more riders able to "keep up" with the hotrods.

600 production racing used to have to run STD shocks and forks. We didn't crash any more than they do now.

Tyres are rooted at the end of a race anyway even with the "good shocks" what difference do it make?

Every bike has a limiting factor, some my be down on power, others down on braking. Does it matter if the shock is the limiting factor if all bikes have to conform?

Excuse me but are you qualified to make such statements? Do you have a hidden agenda for trying to push these opinions?

Besides if you want to ride an unmodded bike theres Streetstock why dumb down another class like ProTwins for example. Everyone will go slower and its all about going faster isn't it?

[Shaun]

Excuse me but are you qualified to make such statements? Do you have a hidden agenda for trying to push these opinions?

Besides if you want to ride an unmodded bike theres Streetstock why dumb down another class like ProTwins for example. Everyone will go slower and its all about going faster isn't it?



Dumb Down? So making it easier for younger riders to get on the grid and be = as competitive is DUMB is it?

Pro twins, brought in some more riders to the feild, even if you/I/ or others do not agree with some

Streetstock, this is for KIDS, and older people that do not have enough money, or passion/commitment to race in a more exspensive class

What intelligent suggestions do you have then, to create a class with in a class, to help develop young new riders into the 600 feild?

Remember, I am only asking this out of direct passion and interest for the sport, IF there was to be a class like this put in place, I HAVE JUST DONE MYSELF OUT OF POTENTUALL SALES, so I have started this thread with genuine interest in the idea;s from one and all

[svr]

if you want to ride an unmodded bike theres Streetstock why dumb down another class like ProTwins for example. Everyone will go slower and its all about going faster isn't it?

But a standard 14k gsxr 600 is faster than a 20k pro twin bike...

[Shaun]

Loving all this. But a few observations to throw into the mix.

When Stroudy rode his 600 with the std shock it was DRY not damp. He said it was fine and even though we did have a WP shock to put in (turned up on the SAT morning) it was decided that we should not fit it as we had no testing time before the races.

Standard shocks would cause the lap times to go up. Bikes to circulate slower, more riders able to "keep up" with the hotrods.

600 production racing used to have to run STD shocks and forks. We didn't crash any more than they do now.

Tyres are rooted at the end of a race anyway even with the "good shocks" what difference do it make?

Every bike has a limiting factor, some my be down on power, others down on braking. Does it matter if the shock is the limiting factor if all bikes have to conform?



Good on ya for stating this> Andrew is Andrew, and this makes his efforts on this standard shock very understandable, he was also very very fast in the full wet/damp races as well with it!

I am just seriously keen to find a way, to create an easier/cheaper lead in class to the 600 feild, I do not really believe that the average first year or second year rider, is going to be good enough anyway to win races Yet, SO WHY NOT START WITH LOWER SPEC BIKE, to learn tracks, and how the power works etc, whilst being a dam good spy, and watching what all the hot shots are doing with there bikes suspension.

NZ is a very small market place, so SPONSORSHIP is next to impossible here, so why not swallow, and get used to the fact that the NZ market place is different than say AUSTRALIA, and create this class for the future, EVEN AUS, that keeps turning out world class riders, DUE to the finance availlable over there through sales etc, has created a learner 600 class as such, brilliant, and if we followed suit, WE could get some KIWI riders over there, on = bikes for once, and then maybe, we could help to start build a path to get a future A Stroud etc out there.

I know some will say, that with out the trick suspension gear, riders will crash a lot! BOLLOCKS, Riders who now use very quality Suspension gear, still crash, IT is up to the rider to find the point of controll, the suspension does not do this for you, YES, it tells you in advance, that shit is going on, But so does, STD, all be it, Not as quickly or adequatelly as after market, but it does tell you.

And the 10K saved on the performance parts, can be spent on your crash bills, whilst learning, CRASH bills are a part of racing, just ask ROSSI< DOOHAN< GARDENER< ROBERT HOLDEN bla bla

[Shaun]

But a standard 14k gsxr 600 is faster than a 20k pro twin bike...



I miss your point sorry

[svr]

I was replying to gsvr - and as it happens, agreeing with your next post i.e. tha current 600 production bikes are great, (semi) affordable track / race bikes as standard.

[GSVR]

Dumb Down? So making it easier for younger riders to get on the grid and be = as competitive is DUMB is it?

Pro twins, brought in some more riders to the feild, even if you/I/ or others do not agree with some

Streetstock, this is for KIDS, and older people that do not have enough money, or passion/commitment to race in a more exspensive class

What intelligent suggestions do you have then, to create a class with in a class, to help develop young new riders into the 600 feild?

Remember, I am only asking this out of direct passion and interest for the sport, IF there was to be a class like this put in place, I HAVE JUST DONE MYSELF OUT OF POTENTUALL SALES, so I have started this thread with genuine interest in the idea;s from one and all

If there was to be a class like your suggesting MNZ well and truely missed the opportunity with ProTwins!

My suggestion to any young rider with aspirations is to forget about ProTwin or F3 and just get a cheaper second hand 600 machine and ride it slowly Club racing until their skill level came up.

IMO ProTwin bikes should have been a stepping stone out of Streetstock or an introduction to racing outside of Clubmans . What would have been good with this class would have been the ability to by an SV off trademe on Friday, Wire up the sump plug, replace the coolent, and remove the lights on Saturday, And go racing on Sunday. This way alot more racebikes would enter the sport and the second market would be vibrant. If someone wasn't happy with racing a std bike then they could spend shitloads on the same bike and race it in F3.

[Shaun]

If there was to be a class like your suggesting MNZ well and truely missed the opportunity with ProTwins!

My suggestion to any young rider with aspirations is to forget about ProTwin or F3 and just get a cheaper second hand 600 machine and ride it slowly Club racing until their skill level came up.

IMO ProTwin bikes should have been a stepping stone out of Streetstock or an introduction to racing outside of Clubmans . What would have been good with this class would have been the ability to by an SV off trademe on Friday, Wire up the sump plug, replace the coolent, and remove the lights on Saturday, And go racing on Sunday. This way alot more racebikes would enter the sport and the second market would be vibrant. If someone wasn't happy with racing a std bike then they could spend shitloads on the same bike and race it in F3.



OK, so you dont actually have anything to share towards this discussion then for the 600 class, so why not take your PRO TWINS complaints, ( Again ) back to the PRO TWIN thread then, instead of infecting what is turning into a very good topic on here please GSVR

[Shaun]

I was replying to gsvr - and as it happens, agreeing with your next post i.e. tha current 600 production bikes are great, (semi) affordable track / race bikes as standard.



Cheers for the reply

[svr]

If there was to be a class like your suggesting MNZ well and truely missed the opportunity with ProTwins!

My suggestion to any young rider with aspirations is to forget about ProTwin or F3 and just get a cheaper second hand 600 machine and ride it slowly Club racing until their skill level came up.

IMO ProTwin bikes should have been a stepping stone out of Streetstock or an introduction to racing outside of Clubmans . What would have been good with this class would have been the ability to by an SV off trademe on Friday, Wire up the sump plug, replace the coolent, and remove the lights on Saturday, And go racing on Sunday. This way alot more racebikes would enter the sport and the second market would be vibrant. If someone wasn't happy with racing a std bike then they could spend shitloads on the same bike and race it in F3.

Why don't racers at this level just race standard bikes? 6k for an sv that's probably only 1.5 secs off the pace (i.e. second in the last nationals...) and until you find the rest yourself, whats the problem?

[GSVR]

Why don't racers at this level just race standard bikes? 6k for an sv that's probably only 1.5 secs off the pace (i.e. second in the last nationals...) and until you find the rest yourself, whats the problem?

Why don't 600 riders just race standard bikes theres no rules that say they can't. As Shauns pointed out if they can ride as well as Andrew Stroud they should be able to get a win even!

[slowpoke]

Good on ya for stating this> Andrew is Andrew, and this makes his efforts on this standard shock very understandable, he was also very very fast in the full wet/damp races as well with it!

I am just seriously keen to find a way, to create an easier/cheaper lead in class to the 600 feild, I do not really believe that the average first year or second year rider, is going to be good enough anyway to win races Yet, SO WHY NOT START WITH LOWER SPEC BIKE, to learn tracks, and how the power works etc, whilst being a dam good spy, and watching what all the hot shots are doing with there bikes suspension.

NZ is a very small market place, so SPONSORSHIP is next to impossible here, so why not swallow, and get used to the fact that the NZ market place is different than say AUSTRALIA, and create this class for the future, EVEN AUS, that keeps turning out world class riders, DUE to the finance availlable over there through sales etc, has created a learner 600 class as such, brilliant, and if we followed suit, WE could get some KIWI riders over there, on = bikes for once, and then maybe, we could help to start build a path to get a future A Stroud etc out there.


I spent quite a few years in Oz, following the racing scene as a spectator before belatedly climbing the fence and having a thrash myself as finances permitted. The superstock class definitely seems to be an excellent development series. Without checking the regs I think it is basically limited to suspension mods (replacement rear shock, not sure of front but only internal mods allowed) and a slip on can, and that's pretty much it.
Given the two year life span of a 600 you could conceivably pick up a one year old bike and convert or an existing 1 year old superstock bike and be racing at the pointy end for the same as, if not less than the cost of a new road bike. If it's your fist season then ponying up for the latest and greatest is crazy, so picking up something a bit older would be much cheaper again and ideal while you are on the steep part of the learning curve.
I reckon a Superstock class is a great idea, getting youngsters onto bikes with decent power and a fair amount of adjustability as soon as possible.
Just as a point of interest the FIM 600 Superstock class at the last WSBK round was won by a 15 year old.

[trev]

At last a thread worth reading on KB. As a (minor & novice) sponsor for the last 2 years I would like to add my 2c worth.
What does this sport wish to produce here in NZ - faster bikes or faster riders ?
What do the fans want to see - who has the fastest bike or who is the fastest rider ?
What are the sponsors supporting - the development of a bike or the development of a person (rider) ?
There is too much emphasis on getting the best bike you can afford & not becoming the best rider you can be!! -
During my short involvement in the sport I have seen people making (in many cases tremendous) sacrifices to participate & the biggest mountain they have to climb is called "financial cost" Among the sacrifices being made are :-
- cutting back track time ( I can work & make more money instead )
- totally deleting any expenditure towards getting training. Don't say you don't need it because Roger Federer & Tiger Woods still do & they are pretty good.
Are these the sacrifices we want to see being made ??
Robert is right in that AT SOME STAGE we need "to embrace the technology available" but this technology produces highly sophisticated & capable machinery which needs very capable TRAINED riders to get the best from it. I do not see these riders being produced in any numbers - just a lucky chosen few. To find future champions we need racing where all of the riders on the track (not just those with the fastest / best handling bikes)can show & compare their skill levels. The 150 streetstock is a wonderful 1st step to achieving this & maybe a 600 streetstock can take it further.
For the money I outlaid over the last 2 years, for a 600 streetstock,I could have either :-
- sponsored 2 riders or
- sponsored 1 rider & paid for considerable professional training.
I'll finish how I started - what do we want to produce - faster bikes or faster riders ??

[svr]

Roger that.
Interesting that NZ produced hordes of fast young riders - several to world level - from cheap production racing in the 80's. Cheap racing was the breeding ground.
That said, to provide a spectacle we also need the highest level racing NZ can reasonably sustain. Also there is no turning back the clock on technology for the premier class(es?).
There is also a clear third function for racing classes - Racing has to be attainable for the average joe, who just wants to race a decent motorcycle for reasonable outlay. Base numbers grow the size of the sport.
Three quite divergent functions, each important, hence all the arguing.

[Shaun]

At last a thread worth reading on KB. As a (minor & novice) sponsor for the last 2 years I would like to add my 2c worth.
What does this sport wish to produce here in NZ - faster bikes or faster riders ?
What do the fans want to see - who has the fastest bike or who is the fastest rider ?
What are the sponsors supporting - the development of a bike or the development of a person (rider) ?
There is too much emphasis on getting the best bike you can afford & not becoming the best rider you can be!! -
During my short involvement in the sport I have seen people making (in many cases tremendous) sacrifices to participate & the biggest mountain they have to climb is called "financial cost" Among the sacrifices being made are :-
- cutting back track time ( I can work & make more money instead )
- totally deleting any expenditure towards getting training. Don't say you don't need it because Roger Federer & Tiger Woods still do & they are pretty good.
Are these the sacrifices we want to see being made ??
Robert is right in that AT SOME STAGE we need "to embrace the technology available" but this technology produces highly sophisticated & capable machinery which needs very capable TRAINED riders to get the best from it. I do not see these riders being produced in any numbers - just a lucky chosen few. To find future champions we need racing where all of the riders on the track (not just those with the fastest / best handling bikes)can show & compare their skill levels. The 150 streetstock is a wonderful 1st step to achieving this & maybe a 600 streetstock can take it further.
For the money I outlaid over the last 2 years, for a 600 streetstock,I could have either :-
- sponsored 2 riders or
- sponsored 1 rider & paid for considerable professional training.
I'll finish how I started - what do we want to produce - faster bikes or faster riders ??



Graham Crosby Ginger Malloy Rod Coleman Robert Holden Aaron Slight Andrew Strod Simon Crafer SORRY OTHERS

[scott411]

i agree with Shaun on this,

i think a stock 600 class would make a lot of sense, limit it to slipons only, and maybe powercommanders but that adds the cost, with footpegs and a control tyre, it would make it easier for guys to get into the class, and for dealers to get bikes ready,

a good thing is that you could go and buy a race ready bike off the floor, not everyone has the time or skills of Shaun or Robert that it takes to build a race bike, it works with motocross, and you have dealers building and selling motard bikes which is ojnje of the reasons it has taken off,

pro twins will always be limited by the fact there are only 2 manufactures, and one bike starts off with a huge dissadvanatge so thier is really only one choice, but i think its a good class,

streetstock is a great club class, and what has been done with junior riders in the south island is great, but i do not think making it a national class will improve anything, put a title in front of something and it ruins things,

[Robert Taylor]

I would tend to think that Pro Twins is exactly the class to go racing at lower cost. The rules are a good balance with very limited power enhancement allowed, standard front forks ( with emulators ) and an aftermarket rear shock allowed which enables quick and easy ride height / geometry changes, easy access to optional springing and a response range that is going to teach riders and their crew set up skills. In case we are all missing something road racing is also about learning set up and to that end also involves the crew as competitors. It is not only about the riders.
In its second year we should see pro twin numbers increase, its a relatively low cost entry level class and if riders then want to move onto the premier classes they will find a way. In saying that I think it would be wrong to dilute the specification of the two premier classes which have dragged themselves up into a proffessional class with lots of technical support available.
Given the size of our population entry numbers this past season for 600 supersport werent so bad, they could sustain a few more yes. But what is often overlooked when people cite the good old 70s is that there is a whole load more choice in leisure activities now than there was then so I think it is a little unfair to cite cost as the over-riding cause of a problem that I think is being over stated.
I think it would be foolhardy to radically mess with the rules at present and by default jeopardise all the hard work that has been put in to get pro twins off the ground.
It is also my personal opinion that people elected to positions within MNZ have no direct commercial interest within the sport. Aside from being unashamedly outspoken that is one reason I would never put my own name forward as I feel I would be belying a long standing etiqutte observed within western society, that is avoiding having a conflict of interest.

[Shaun]

i agree with Shaun on this,

i think a stock 600 class would make a lot of sense, limit it to slipons only, and maybe powercommanders but that adds the cost, with footpegs and a control tyre, it would make it easier for guys to get into the class, and for dealers to get bikes ready,

a good thing is that you could go and buy a race ready bike off the floor, not everyone has the time or skills of Shaun or Robert that it takes to build a race bike, it works with motocross, and you have dealers building and selling motard bikes which is ojnje of the reasons it has taken off,

pro twins will always be limited by the fact there are only 2 manufactures, and one bike starts off with a huge dissadvanatge so thier is really only one choice, but i think its a good class,

streetstock is a great club class, and what has been done with junior riders in the south island is great, but i do not think making it a national class will improve anything, put a title in front of something and it ruins things,


Thankyou Scott. I also see the benifit in the dealer net work being more involved, as the time and money and required knoledge is a lot less

[svr]

Given the size of our population entry numbers this past season for 600 supersport werent so bad, they could sustain a few more yes. But what is often overlooked when people cite the good old 70s is that there is a whole load more choice in leisure activities now than there was then so I think it is a little unfair to cite cost as the over-riding cause of a problem that I think is being over stated.


Sorry Robert I have to disgree - the single biggest obstacle to motor sport participation is cost. A 30k access fee would kill most sports stone dead. Junior road racers must rely heavily on their parents for large financial sacrifices, and junior normally also has to forgo higher education. This tends to exclude anyone except those with wealthy or extremely dedicated parents - i.e. the available talent pool is limited, to say the least.
In order to attract and develop talented young riders in decent numbers, surely road racing needs to be more open and merit-based? The basic skills of riding a `proper' bike at the limit is the absolute pre-requite which needs to learnt very early on in the riders development.
Yes set-up skills do matter (although that didn't stop Fogarty...), and in any case 600 production bikes do have some scope for set-up.
I don't disagree with any of your technical comments, it's only the Tory elitism I can't help but take issue with!
Anyone who truly loves their sport wants it to grow, right? Even if that means letting in the working-class kids...
600 production just makes sense.

[slowpoke]

I dunno if it's applicable but for what it's worth the AMA is going through exactly the sort of growing pains we are talking about, as the new owners/promoters try to inject new life into the struggling series. The owners of the highly successful NASCAR series are now in charge so it'll be interesting to see how their proposed changes pan out.

I think Trev makes some good points and it's interesting to hear from the perspective of a sponsor. In a way we are almost talking to the wrong people...or more to the point, we seem to be ignoring important participants (sponsors), when it comes to discussing ways to progress the sport.

For my money, as a spectator, I'd rather see 6 racers battling for the lead on close to stock 600's or 1000's, rather than 2 racers leading by half a lap on bikes 1.5 sec/lap quicker than the rest. Yes, it would be nice to have a series where everyone is exposed to the latest technology and bikes of the highest caliber but the series isn't healthy enough to allow it at the moment. Once numbers are up and exposure/sponsors abound then we can looking at up-speccing the bikes. Until then I reckon the KISS philosophy will help get us back on track (excuse the pun): Keep It Simple, Stupid.

[scott411]

Thankyou Scott. I also see the benifit in the dealer net work being more involved, as the time and money and required knoledge is a lot less

the dealers are a bigger source than you think, if you could get away with racing your demo 600 sports bike it may bring an extra riders in, making the bike very saleable at the end of the excercise is also good thing,

at the moment it is two hard and costly to build a competitive 600 sports production bike, and it is two hard to sell at the end of the year as well,

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry Robert I have to disgree - the single biggest obstacle to motor sport participation is cost. A 30k access fee would kill most sports stone dead. Junior road racers must rely heavily on their parents for large financial sacrifices, and junior normally also has to forgo higher education. This tends to exclude anyone except those with wealthy or extremely dedicated parents - i.e. the available talent pool is limited, to say the least.
In order to attract and develop talented young riders in decent numbers, surely road racing needs to be more open and merit-based? The basic skills of riding a `proper' bike at the limit is the absolute pre-requite which needs to learnt very early on in the riders development.
Yes set-up skills do matter (although that didn't stop Fogarty...), and in any case 600 production bikes do have some scope for set-up.
I don't disagree with any of your technical comments, it's only the Tory elitism I can't help but take issue with!
Anyone who truly loves their sport wants it to grow, right? Even if that means letting in the working-class kids...
600 production just makes sense.

For the record I work amicably with people from all walks of life and political persuasions. 600 Sports Production is one of the two premier classes and neednt be messed with too much, there are other classes for entry level and smaller budgets such as Pro Twins. Thats the reality.

[Robert Taylor]

the dealers are a bigger source than you think, if you could get away with racing your demo 600 sports bike it may bring an extra riders in, making the bike very saleable at the end of the excercise is also good thing,

at the moment it is two hard and costly to build a competitive 600 sports production bike, and it is two hard to sell at the end of the year as well,

I think Brian Bernard and Dave Cole might disagree with you there as examples of people that have onsold their 600s recently. These were sold with all the kit on them but you can appreciate more return very often by onselling the up-spec parts seperately. This second hand market for up-spec parts at considerably less than retail helps to reduce costs for many.
Racing 600cc and up stock bikes is fraught with more technical and set up problems than most people realise, mark my words.

[CHOPPA]

I think Brian Bernard and Dave Cole might disagree with you there as examples of people that have onsold their 600s recently. These were sold with all the kit on them but you can appreciate more return very often by onselling the up-spec parts seperately. This second hand market for up-spec parts at considerably less than retail helps to reduce costs for many.
Racing 600cc and up stock bikes is fraught with more technical and set up problems than most people realise, mark my words.


The thing is that a stock class would bring more racers to the scene then when they already have the bike and fairings etc and are racing they will realise the pitfalls you talk of then its not that much extra to just chuck in suspension and a full exhaust as those 2 items are pretty much the only diff.....

[Robert Taylor]

The thing is that a stock class would bring more racers to the scene then when they already have the bike and fairings etc and are racing they will realise the pitfalls you talk of then its not that much extra to just chuck in suspension and a full exhaust as those 2 items are pretty much the only diff.....

I hear what you are saying and you know I have experienced sales of high dollar items to a level I really didnt expect. We used to sell Traxxion cartridges at less than $2000 a set, I thought that was ''up there''. Then Dave Cole ordered Ohlins cartridges for Sam Smith which shall we say cost appreciably more. Well, the things worked so well and are so well engineered and user friendly that we have now sold rather a lot, including into Formula 3.
As I pointed out in a previous post I dont think it is ALL about everyones favourite bogey, cost.

[Shaun]

The thing is that a stock class would bring more racers to the scene then when they already have the bike and fairings etc and are racing they will realise the pitfalls you talk of then its not that much extra to just chuck in suspension and a full exhaust as those 2 items are pretty much the only diff.....




You have my total attention there Choppa, this is a really good way of bringing more riders into the game, at a lower level entry fee

Robert, you mentioned peoples little favourite thing COSTS, well this is for real mate, it is to bloody exspensive these days to even just get going out there. ( I know you know, but perhaps have not thought it through fully, full the customers point of view, COSTS AGAIN

K6/7 600 Retail $ 14-000
Shock $ 2500
Fork kit $ 2500
Pipe $3000
Footrest kit $400-00
Fairings $900-00
ECU $1000-00
Dyno tune work $500-00
Head Gskt comp $ 500-00

Total $ 25,300,00 AND THAT IS A CHEAP ONE!!!!!!

The above prices are realistic fact, so how many 18 year olds do we have that can spend $25-000K and then live, eat, tyres, petrol, pies etc etc etc Jack shit

The standard class idea brings the above costings down to around $15-000
am sure there are a lot more that could afford this.

Scott41, mentioned the dealer net work, I believe they would be more inclined to support loonies, if the costings and set up was a lot easier less exspensive just to be involved.

[R1madness]

Excuse me but are you qualified to make such statements? Do you have a hidden agenda for trying to push these opinions?



Actually yes i am qualified to make such statements. Having been a racer for 17 years and a mechanic for 20 years as well as Stroudys pit mechanic for the last 7 years. Whats your gualifications??????

Have a look at my signature. I am not trying to push my opinions on you. We only sell used inports so i dont have an axe to grind on brands or shit.

How do you dumb down a bike? Take out its ECU?

I just think its a bit rich calling the class production when there are huge modifications allowed. The idea was to create a lower cost, highly competitive, class using bikes that were instantly recognisable as the bikes that are ridden on the street. Come and have a look at one in the pits sometime and tell me what bits you are likely to find on your street bike. As for engine mods well its an open book. The offical team suzuki bikes have about 9 more HP than the best of the private bikes. One racer that i help who achieved a top 10 placing in the 600 class nationals has quit racing because he can not get a motor worth running for the next year. NO point in racing if you cant compete. No its not a money thing either. He has the cash but has been told in no uncirtain terms that he is not getting a top suzuki motor for next year despite finishing as top privateer and being a former national champ (in another class).

[Shaun]

now this is exactly why i asked you to please add your profile to my road racing profile website, so people can read your interesting race history, sheeesh!!! how hard is it... sign up! www.visordown.co.nz people are genuinly interested to read about all past and present racer bio's!!

:jerry:




Doing it Boss

[Tony.OK]

I think a class like this sounds great,not only for 'young' riders either.I'm 35 and have just started,I don't earn huge dollars,but am an ok rider,I've already overspent what I can afford on my bike and know that it hasn't got a shit show of competing with the big boys.
Just watching the Pukie Nats rnd showed that money makes alot of the difference to who's up the front.
Taking the "biggest budget" side of the equation away and leaving "rider skill" as the main objective sounds like fun close racing.
I would even go as far to suggest a one make series,look how many types of car racing series there are now,and how close the races are.
Just my 2c though..............now off to the nearest Lotto shop:blink:

[GSVR]

Actually yes i am qualified to make such statements. Having been a racer for 17 years and a mechanic for 20 years as well as Stroudys pit mechanic for the last 7 years. Whats your gualifications??????


Sarcasm. I knew you had something to say so I wanted to quote it and get Robert Taylor and others to give their comments.

If you read back on some of the previous threads on the matters being discussed here you should find that I agree with your statements.

As a newcomer to the sport its not good when you have people that have been involved in the sport for years giving totally opposing views. I sometimes wonder what the motive is for this as surely you guys should all know a bit about tyre wear etc by now..

As you said in your post "Production racing" used to be just that some years ago. What was the reason for changing the rules?

If you haven't seen this page I suggest you read it. A top racer explains why its not a good idea use Stock Bikes and my famous Dumb Down quote is there too.

"I for one am not interested in ''dumbing down'' the premier classes. That is stated from a technical and safety perspective."

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=70529&highlight=premier+classes&page=5

[Bren_chch]

Actually yes i am qualified to make such statements. Having been a racer for 17 years and a mechanic for 20 years as well as Stroudys pit mechanic for the last 7 years. Whats your gualifications??????

All that and u still cant spell for shit! :Pokey::devil2:




One racer that i help who achieved a top 10 placing in the 600 class nationals has quit racing because he can not get a motor worth running for the next year. NO point in racing if you cant compete. No its not a money thing either. He has the cash but has been told in no uncirtain terms that he is not getting a top suzuki motor for next year despite finishing as top privateer and being a former national champ (in another class).

mmm u made it easy to pick who that is! Shame to see him go!

[Toast]

I just think its a bit rich calling the class production when there are huge modifications allowed. The idea was to create a lower cost, highly competitive, class using bikes that were instantly recognisable as the bikes that are ridden on the street. Come and have a look at one in the pits sometime and tell me what bits you are likely to find on your street bike. As for engine mods well its an open book. The offical team suzuki bikes have about 9 more HP than the best of the private bikes. One racer that i help who achieved a top 10 placing in the 600 class nationals has quit racing because he can not get a motor worth running for the next year. NO point in racing if you cant compete. No its not a money thing either. He has the cash but has been told in no uncirtain terms that he is not getting a top suzuki motor for next year despite finishing as top privateer and being a former national champ (in another class).

My opinion: Rossi could probably take that bike and clean up the Nat's...so what's the issue? Why spend your time trying to spank little fish when you could possibly learn more and get good enough to take on some bigger fish. Bugden won Superbike races in Aus as a privateer.

[R1madness]

All that and u still cant spell for shit! :Pokey::devil2:

hahahaha yea mate i know but i can usually get my point across.

Look its true that we have differences of opinion on racing, Bikes, brands, causes, solutions, ideas, colour schemes. You name it it will get discussed, poked, prodded, and abused all the way to the next nationals. Its a good thing. Debate is healthy for the sport. How else do you think the ideas get support (or otherwise) for the sport to improve.

I am all for a stock shock/ecu/airfilter class. Always have been. But thats only my opinion. Surely i am allowed one?

And seriously GSVR its not sarcasism. You asked what my qualifications were. I told you. Then asked (all be it with poor spelling) what yours are. If you are a nube to racing welcome aboard man, join the fun. Come have a chat with me sometime. Always looking for some friendly discussions around improving the sport. If you have been around for a while and i dont recognize you from your signature sorry man but perhaps you should come out from behind the sig.

[gixerracer]

Actually yes i am qualified to make such statements. Having been a racer for 17 years and a mechanic for 20 years as well as Stroudys pit mechanic for the last 7 years. Whats your gualifications??????

Have a look at my signature. I am not trying to push my opinions on you. We only sell used inports so i dont have an axe to grind on brands or shit.

How do you dumb down a bike? Take out its ECU?

I just think its a bit rich calling the class production when there are huge modifications allowed. The idea was to create a lower cost, highly competitive, class using bikes that were instantly recognisable as the bikes that are ridden on the street. Come and have a look at one in the pits sometime and tell me what bits you are likely to find on your street bike. As for engine mods well its an open book. The offical team suzuki bikes have about 9 more HP than the best of the private bikes. One racer that i help who achieved a top 10 placing in the 600 class nationals has quit racing because he can not get a motor worth running for the next year. NO point in racing if you cant compete. No its not a money thing either. He has the cash but has been told in no uncirtain terms that he is not getting a top suzuki motor for next year despite finishing as top privateer and being a former national champ (in another class).

I dont mean to be rude here but i dont no who the hell you have been talking to about engines but you couldnt be more wrong if you tired to imply the "factory Suzuki boys on 600s have special engines is a complete crock of shit and I no because I am/was one the last season I done on the 600 had an empro yoshi pipe 1 leaf out of stock head gasket standard cam timing and fucking good ohlins and dunlops I still have the lap record at timaru and not bloddy far off at all other tracks people need to pull there head out from there arsses and stop chasing horse power and spend more money doing laps and getting there setup right. Sorry to be rude but it pisses me off when people talk shit when they clearly have been miss informed stop moaning about people that are talented and get out there and STICK IT TO THEM. Dennis charlett won this years 600 class with the empro and exhaust from my previous 600 because he was by far the fastest rider in the class he had no special engine hes just a special guy and if people think it happens over night think again we have all been round for a bloddy long time so if you want to keep up then do what we all done work fucking hard at it sacrifice everything and spend more money a year on your racing than you make in wages.

Craig:headbang::shit::mellow::whocares::nono::inno cent::first:

[speedracerjimmy]

I dont mean to be rude here but i dont no who the hell you have been talking to about engines but you couldnt be more wrong if you tired to imply the "factory Suzuki boys on 600s have special engines is a complete crock of shit and I no because I am/was one the last season I done on the 600 had an empro yoshi pipe 1 leaf out of stock head gasket standard cam timing and fucking good ohlins and dunlops I still have the lap record at timaru and not bloddy far off at all other tracks people need to pull there head out from there arsses and stop chasing horse power and spend more money doing laps and getting there setup right. Sorry to be rude but it pisses me off when people talk shit when they clearly have been miss informed stop moaning about people that are talented and get out there and STICK IT TO THEM. Dennis charlett won this years 600 class with the empro and exhaust from my previous 600 because he was by far the fastest rider in the class he had no special engine hes just a special guy and if people think it happens over night think again we have all been round for a bloddy long time so if you want to keep up then do what we all done work fucking hard at it sacrifice everything and spend more money a year on your racing than you make in wages.

Craig:headbang::shit::mellow::whocares::nono::inno cent::first:

I agree with craig.dennis had nothing special in his bike he just rode hard....
not sure what people mean when they say about people having factory bikes in nz.the guys that ride for suzuki or yamaha or whatever have the same stuff done to their bikes that i and the rest of the field have had done.

[R1madness]

I dont mean to be rude here but i dont no who the hell you have been talking to about engines but you couldnt be more wrong if you tired to imply the "factory Suzuki boys on 600s have special engines is a complete crock of shit and I no because I am/was one the last season I done on the 600 had an empro yoshi pipe 1 leaf out of stock head gasket standard cam timing and fucking good ohlins and dunlops I still have the lap record at timaru and not bloddy far off at all other tracks people need to pull there head out from there arsses and stop chasing horse power and spend more money doing laps and getting there setup right. Sorry to be rude but it pisses me off when people talk shit when they clearly have been miss informed stop moaning about people that are talented and get out there and STICK IT TO THEM. Dennis charlett won this years 600 class with the empro and exhaust from my previous 600 because he was by far the fastest rider in the class he had no special engine hes just a special guy and if people think it happens over night think again we have all been round for a bloddy long time so if you want to keep up then do what we all done work fucking hard at it sacrifice everything and spend more money a year on your racing than you make in wages.

Craig:headbang::shit::mellow::whocares::nono::inno cent::first:

If thats true then please explain why the Official suzuki bikes make at least 9 more hp (on the same dyno by the same dyno operator on the same day)?

I am not questioning the talent of the team riders nor am i moaning about them. Anyone that knows me knows i have a great deal of admiration for these guys (and girls, come on girls). Dennis has talent to burn. He should be on a 1000 next year. James, If he does you have every chance of winning it next year.

However i stand by my coments. I can get a fast motor built by a top NZ engine builder (hi Ray) but he has been told by suzuki that he can not use any of the development work used in the top motors. Also i am not implying that anyone is cheating. There are lots of mods allowed but its getting the combination right that matters. And this is where the top teams have the advantage.

Dennis did win using your last years pipe and empro but it was on this years bike. So what? That just means those parts havn't changed this year but i doubt they will work so well on next years bike.

Anyway we are way off topic now. This was about suspension.

[gixerracer]

If thats true then please explain why the Official suzuki bikes make at least 9 more hp (on the same dyno by the same dyno operator on the same day)?

I am not questioning the talent of the team riders nor am i moaning about them. Anyone that knows me knows i have a great deal of admiration for these guys (and girls, come on girls). Dennis has talent to burn. He should be on a 1000 next year. James, If he does you have every chance of winning it next year.

However i stand by my coments. I can get a fast motor built by a top NZ engine builder (hi Ray) but he has been told by suzuki that he can not use any of the development work used in the top motors. Also i am not implying that anyone is cheating. There are lots of mods allowed but its getting the combination right that matters. And this is where the top teams have the advantage.

Dennis did win using your last years pipe and empro but it was on this years bike. So what? That just means those parts havn't changed this year but i doubt they will work so well on next years bike.

Anyway we are way off topic now. This was about suspension.

If what you say is true which I dont imagine Suzuki saying such a thing as they would like as many of there bikes up the grid as possible it still only relates to superbikes anyway not the 600 class. Buy a motor from Phill Taiton in OZ he builds what ever you are prepared to pay for and would be at a similar cost to get ray to build one.
This years 600 was the same as last years one so I dont get your point there? of course they wont work on the new bike its a different bike.
So anyone thats pulling out of 600s because you cant get a factory motor they dont exsist in the 600 class so keep in there and work hard and all the superbike boys if you can get a motor within 15hp of the top boys trust me its good enough to win on and alot easier to ride

[cowpoos]

If thats true then please explain why the Official suzuki bikes make at least 9 more hp (on the same dyno by the same dyno operator on the same day)?



was in a inertia type dyno Ian?? because gearing can change peak output figures.

[slowpoke]

As much as a level playing field would be nice, in reality it's a myth...unless you go race something like the R6 Cup in the UK, and even then you still hear the bleating about some motor or other being a poofteenth offsong.
In reality, you've just gotta get on and do the best you can with what you've got. Spitting the dummy in the dirt and storming off may be an option for some but realistically it's sorting the "couldabeenchampions" from the "willbechampions". Even as a top level factory racer sooner or later you are going to end up on a bike that isn't quite on the pace and the decision has to be made whether you are going to persevere or give up. By striving for total equality you are just delaying the inevitable when it comes to getting out amongst the serious championships.

My guess is Craig would have given his left nut to do the full season on the not-quite-competitive Suzuki 600 in Oz last year...whereas if others applied the same philosophy they do to their "uncompetitive" rides in NZ they would be no-shows. There's more to being a champion than just being freaky fast and that sums up why Craig, Stroudy and co are champions, 'cos they just get about extracting as much as they can from what they've got.

Sure it must be frustrating to rock up thinking" if only I had the machinery..." but that is the story for just about every racer, in every championship the world over. That's why Franky Chili leading the WSBK championship on his mongrel 999/998 hybrid , or Russel Holland in Oz taking it to the factory boys was so impressive. They mightn't have gone on to win the championships but everyone sat up and took notice. Holland is now racing in WSBK (on another uncompetitive bike) but I doubt he'll be complaining, he'll just be glad to be amongst it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a big field of local racers on similar spec machines but in the big scheme of things there is no such thing as equality or a level playing field, every rider and team are out there trying to exploit every advantage they can find.

[cowpoos]

As much as a level playing field would be nice, in reality it's a myth...unless you go race something like the R6 Cup in the UK, and even then you still hear the bleating about some motor or other being a poofteenth offsong.
In reality, you've just gotta get on and do the best you can with what you've got. Spitting the dummy in the dirt and storming off may be an option for some but realistically it's sorting the "couldabeenchampions" from the "willbechampions". Even as a top level factory racer sooner or later you are going to end up on a bike that isn't quite on the pace and the decision has to be made whether you are going to persevere or give up. By striving for total equality you are just delaying the inevitable when it comes to getting out amongst the serious championships.

My guess is Craig would have given his left nut to do the full season on the not-quite-competitive Suzuki 600 in Oz last year...whereas if others applied the same philosophy they do to their "uncompetitive" rides in NZ they would be no-shows. There's more to being a champion than just being freaky fast and that sums up why Craig, Stroudy and co are champions, 'cos they just get about extracting as much as they can from what they've got.

Sure it must be frustrating to rock up thinking" if only I had the machinery..." but that is the story for just about every racer, in every championship the world over. That's why Franky Chili leading the WSBK championship on his mongrel 999/998 hybrid , or Russel Holland in Oz taking it to the factory boys was so impressive. They mightn't have gone on to win the championships but everyone sat up and took notice. Holland is now racing in WSBK (on another uncompetitive bike) but I doubt he'll be complaining, he'll just be glad to be amongst it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a big field of local racers on similar spec machines but in the big scheme of things there is no such thing as equality or a level playing field, every rider and team are out there trying to exploit every advantage they can find.
Bloody good post spud!!

[GSVR]

This thread seems to be getting further off topic. Shauns original idea was to try and make 600s more affordable to younger racers who don't all happen to have 35 grand or so to do a season. Having a slightly faster bike and being flat broke isn't going to help them last in the sport.

Good example here may be to ask why aren't NZ V8's the same spec as Ozzy V8's. The answer is the NZ V8 field would probably end up being just one car strong. TKR.

Thinking a bit on why front supension mods are allowed in the production classes maybe in the past people have been suspected of running modified suspension and because it is such a pain to check and enforce it was decided to let people do what they wanted to the internals. In the past it may have just been a bit of tweaking or adding some relatively low cost components. Now it seems the cost of upgrading the front suspension is not so cheap.

Edit here:
Just did a search and now a know what an em-pro is .... And they aren't that cheap are they,

[cowpoos]

emprohttp://www.yoshimura-jp.com/en/kitparts/empro.html

[slowpoke]

This thread seems to be getting further off topic. Shauns original idea was to try and make 600s more affordable to younger racers who don't all happen to have 35 grand or so to do a season. Having a slightly faster bike and being flat broke isn't going to help them last in the sport.


I think the point is that even with a bog stock 600 you can still make an impression if you are good enough.

Witness Jay Lawrence at the Manfield Nationals round 2 seasons ago. The guy borrows an unfamiliar virtually stock R6 when his ZX6R shits itself the day before and comes I think it was 5th overall on the day. His sponsors tyres aren't at the top of most racer's shopping list either. I'm sure that most of the bikes behind him would have been much less standard than his stock R6.

[Shaun]

I think the point is that even with a bog stock 600 you can still make an impression if you are good enough.

Witness Jay Lawrence at the Manfield Nationals round 2 seasons ago. The guy borrows an unfamiliar virtually stock R6 when his ZX6R shits itself the day before and comes I think it was 5th overall on the day. His sponsors tyres aren't at the top of most racer's shopping list either. I'm sure that most of the bikes behind him would have been much less standard than his stock R6.




Well said Slowpoke! your example is an awsome case, YES Jay had lots of prior experience, but as Andrew S and He has done very simmilar things with So called Std gear.

Brian B and Dave C selling there units so quickly is fantastic, BUT the truth be known, YAMAHA or another sponsor actually paid for them, at a seriously discounted price to begin with, and Probally paid for all the trick parts on these bikes as well!- so there sales of Factory supported bikes is a good indication of the sales market, but has NO Real relevince to the PRIVATEER really.

I am just trying to help find a way to grow our sport even more, if there are any others with thoughts on this, please Post on here

[R1madness]

If what you say is true which I dont imagine Suzuki saying such a thing as they would like as many of there bikes up the grid as possible it still only relates to superbikes anyway not the 600 class. Buy a motor from Phill Taiton in OZ he builds what ever you are prepared to pay for and would be at a similar cost to get ray to build one.
This years 600 was the same as last years one so I dont get your point there? of course they wont work on the new bike its a different bike.
So anyone thats pulling out of 600s because you cant get a factory motor they dont exsist in the 600 class so keep in there and work hard and all the superbike boys if you can get a motor within 15hp of the top boys trust me its good enough to win on and alot easier to ride

Suzuki told him that they would not even cut the shop he buys the bike from (not me, an official Suzuki dealer) a deal so that he can get it at a better price than the dealers cost he had been offered (by the shop). I thought it was odd but maybe they think they have enough front runners?

Yea i agree a slightly lower hp bike with a better spread of power is often better than a peaky motor. Cheers for the tip on the aussie motor builder. Could you post his contact details so others can get in touch with him?

Yes it was an inersia dyno but gearing had been factored.

[Robert Taylor]

I think the point is that even with a bog stock 600 you can still make an impression if you are good enough.

Witness Jay Lawrence at the Manfield Nationals round 2 seasons ago. The guy borrows an unfamiliar virtually stock R6 when his ZX6R shits itself the day before and comes I think it was 5th overall on the day. His sponsors tyres aren't at the top of most racer's shopping list either. I'm sure that most of the bikes behind him would have been much less standard than his stock R6.

Just so that there can be no confusion about that bike, the R6 ( at least then ) was the horsepower king so it was a pretty good platform to borrowand a much better bike than the Kawasaki. Also borrowed from Bernard racing ( very sporting of Brian ) was an Ohlins rear shock valved for the application and they came and borrowed a spring off me suitable for Jay. Nothing ever is quite as it seems and no disrespect to Jay but he was still an appreciable distance behind the leaders.

[Robert Taylor]

Suzuki told him that they would not even cut the shop he buys the bike from (not me, an official Suzuki dealer) a deal so that he can get it at a better price than the dealers cost he had been offered (by the shop). I thought it was odd but maybe they think they have enough front runners?

Yea i agree a slightly lower hp bike with a better spread of power is often better than a peaky motor. Cheers for the tip on the aussie motor builder. Could you post his contact details so others can get in touch with him?

Yes it was an inersia dyno but gearing had been factored.

Suzuki NZ spend a LOT on road racing in NZ and have done so for many years, that singular fact is very very commendable. But also, I can well understand where they have to draw the line. Industry insiders know only too damn well that without their massive commitment road racing in NZ would be ( and I am not sorry for saying this ) in the metaphorical dark ages. Its commendable also that YMNZ stepped up to join the party and Honda have a presence albeit tiny. The other remaining big 4 name has got back out of it what they have put in.
Indeed it wasnt so very many years ago that SNZ put a lot of money up to get a box stock SV650 series going, conforming to the low cost theme. There may have been several compounding factors but it ended up failing.
I have rather quickly skimmed through the posts on this thread and what is blindingly obvious is that there is very little comment from incumbent 600cc riders so there must be relatively little concern about the rules as they stand. This is one of the two elite classes and should remain that way. If people wish to enter this class and race on stock suspension they need to realise that even 600s are overpowered for their standard suspenders. Heck, even at trackday level stock bikes will quickly screw their tyres even with the external settings optimised as much as is possible. To that end we are now geared up to offer upspecs of the standard suspension that will both improve the performance levels and improve tyre life. Not to the same standards as our beloved Ohlins suspenders but still very ''useful'', albeit nowhere near as easy as to work on.
Anyone who thinks they can race on hot grippy tracks with stock suspenders and not have issues that cannot be ignored is in denial. Therefore there is unavoidable cost.
I had eluded previously in another post that top shelf suspension components filter down at affordable second hand resale prices, at present I can identify several sets of very late model Ohlins TTX36 rear dampers,cartridge kits and steering dampers on the market.
We already have entry level classes such as pro twins and 125s, given sales of upspec parts recently these classes are going to be more well subscribed over the coming winter and summer seasons. We only have a small population and I think that it is important to not have too many fragmented classes. What is worthy though of a longer term look is the 450cc motocross based class that is getting up and running in the States. It has been very well discussed in another thread but my point is that if you want to get more dealers involved then this is not a major crossover from MX ( that involves many dealers ) But such bikes would have to be incorporated into Formula 3. BUT in the meantime the pro-twins class should get as much support as possible from all those within the industry. It may not be perfect but is a low cost entry level class that can provide great racing.
Relevant to our population base I see no reason to be concerned at the entry numbers for the nationals in 600 and Superbike.
Another key issue is bike setup and training. Access to quality information has for many years not been very easy to access, exacerbated by many top racers being very secretive and protective. Maybe they cannot be blamed but training riders and crews in set up techniques is one of the biggest single factors that will assist the growth of the sport. To that end my company is currently engaged in finalising some initiatives re same.

[Robert Taylor]

Well said Slowpoke! your example is an awsome case, YES Jay had lots of prior experience, but as Andrew S and He has done very simmilar things with So called Std gear.

Brian B and Dave C selling there units so quickly is fantastic, BUT the truth be known, YAMAHA or another sponsor actually paid for them, at a seriously discounted price to begin with, and Probally paid for all the trick parts on these bikes as well!- so there sales of Factory supported bikes is a good indication of the sales market, but has NO Real relevince to the PRIVATEER really.

I am just trying to help find a way to grow our sport even more, if there are any others with thoughts on this, please Post on here

Yes it does have relevance to the privateer because privateers have bought these bikes inclusive of trick upspec parts at very affordable prices. So Yamaha NZ for one are effectively helping the sport at two levels.

[Robert Taylor]

As much as a level playing field would be nice, in reality it's a myth...unless you go race something like the R6 Cup in the UK, and even then you still hear the bleating about some motor or other being a poofteenth offsong.
In reality, you've just gotta get on and do the best you can with what you've got. Spitting the dummy in the dirt and storming off may be an option for some but realistically it's sorting the "couldabeenchampions" from the "willbechampions". Even as a top level factory racer sooner or later you are going to end up on a bike that isn't quite on the pace and the decision has to be made whether you are going to persevere or give up. By striving for total equality you are just delaying the inevitable when it comes to getting out amongst the serious championships.

My guess is Craig would have given his left nut to do the full season on the not-quite-competitive Suzuki 600 in Oz last year...whereas if others applied the same philosophy they do to their "uncompetitive" rides in NZ they would be no-shows. There's more to being a champion than just being freaky fast and that sums up why Craig, Stroudy and co are champions, 'cos they just get about extracting as much as they can from what they've got.

Sure it must be frustrating to rock up thinking" if only I had the machinery..." but that is the story for just about every racer, in every championship the world over. That's why Franky Chili leading the WSBK championship on his mongrel 999/998 hybrid , or Russel Holland in Oz taking it to the factory boys was so impressive. They mightn't have gone on to win the championships but everyone sat up and took notice. Holland is now racing in WSBK (on another uncompetitive bike) but I doubt he'll be complaining, he'll just be glad to be amongst it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a big field of local racers on similar spec machines but in the big scheme of things there is no such thing as equality or a level playing field, every rider and team are out there trying to exploit every advantage they can find.

So very true. If aftermarket suspension was banned we would be into the stock shocks like a robbers dog and have our shock dyno working overtime.

[gixerracer]

Suzuki told him that they would not even cut the shop he buys the bike from (not me, an official Suzuki dealer) a deal so that he can get it at a better price than the dealers cost he had been offered (by the shop). I thought it was odd but maybe they think they have enough front runners?

Yea i agree a slightly lower hp bike with a better spread of power is often better than a peaky motor. Cheers for the tip on the aussie motor builder. Could you post his contact details so others can get in touch with him?

Yes it was an inersia dyno but gearing had been factored.

Yep thats correct and when I or any other Suzuki NZ sponsored riders buy a bike so we have a spare we also pay dealer cost yes thats right folks we to purchase motorcycles so not everything is at it seems. If they were to sell bikes cheap to anyone who raced at a cheaper price it would be very unfair to there dealers.
And J rode fantastic on that R6 at manfeild I raced all of the first race with him and he beat me in the 2nd the R6 was bog stock except for rear shock and tyres and gearing and the bloddy thing was as fast as my bike I was racing with a injured arm but he went very well and the laps times will back it up.

[oyster]

Just a small correction, in my opinion, Robert. 125GP and Pro Twin are not entry level classes but "intermediate"
ALL of the current young ones in the NZ road racing scene doing well entered through Young Junior Road Race, Miniature Road Race and/or Streetstock.
These are the entry classes with the very low cost platform that still allows a huge amount of rider development prior to moving on to 125GP / Pro Twin.
If people are worried about "bang for buck" in a rider development sense, then get on a Streetstock bike, come to the South Island and break all the lap records. Then you're ready to move up.... Not before

[Shaun]

So very true. If aftermarket suspension was banned we would be into the stock shocks like a robbers dog and have our shock dyno working overtime.


Hey Rob, NO where has it been suggested in this thread that AFTERMARKET suspension be banned!

It has been suggested, that we start a class with in a class, to HELP bring on younger 600 riders, for a shit load less money out lay, That is all, nothing sinister in here at all

but hey, I dont care if you lick windows, interfare with farm animals, vote Labour or occasionally shit yourself...you hang in there sun shine, you are dam special:niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

Just a small correction, in my opinion, Robert. 125GP and Pro Twin are not entry level classes but "intermediate"
ALL of the current young ones in the NZ road racing scene doing well entered through Young Junior Road Race, Miniature Road Race and/or Streetstock.
These are the entry classes with the very low cost platform that still allows a huge amount of rider development prior to moving on to 125GP / Pro Twin.
If people are worried about "bang for buck" in a rider development sense, then get on a Streetstock bike, come to the South Island and break all the lap records. Then you're ready to move up.... Not before

I can only agree with you 100%.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey Rob, NO where has it been suggested in this thread that AFTERMARKET suspension be banned!

It has been suggested, that we start a class with in a class, to HELP bring on younger 600 riders, for a shit load less money out lay, That is all, nothing sinister in here at all

but hey, I dont care if you lick windows, interfare with farm animals, vote Labour or occasionally shit yourself...you hang in there sun shine, you are dam special:niceone:

Yes indeed I am aware of the intent but have wanted to reinforce that running standard suspension is not quite as simple as a number of people would like to believe, especially those that would advocate running nothing but.
Neither interfering with farm animals or voting for THAT lot is on my radar screen, but one of those options is a whole lot more preferable, repugnant as it is!!!!!!

[Shaun]

Yes indeed I am aware of the intent but have wanted to reinforce that running standard suspension is not quite as simple as a number of people would like to believe, especially those that would advocate running nothing but.
Neither interfering with farm animals or voting for THAT lot is on my radar screen, but one of those options is a whole lot more preferable, repugnant as it is!!!!!!




mmmm bugger that option though:wari:

[slowpoke]

Just so that there can be no confusion about that bike, the R6 ( at least then ) was the horsepower king so it was a pretty good platform to borrowand a much better bike than the Kawasaki. Also borrowed from Bernard racing ( very sporting of Brian ) was an Ohlins rear shock valved for the application and they came and borrowed a spring off me suitable for Jay. Nothing ever is quite as it seems and no disrespect to Jay but he was still an appreciable distance behind the leaders.

Yup, I kinda figured the suspension was upgraded but it's still a cheap ride: pick up a 3 month old s/h bike, add quality suspension and you've got something capable of running close to the front for the cost of a new bike....even cheaper if you start with a damaged bike. You don't need to spend $30,000 if you are good enough. No, Jay wasn't right up the klacker of the podium guys but with name tyres and more familiarity/setup time he probably would have done even better. 'Twas a great gesture on Brian Bernard's part too, good on him.

Oh yeah, I remember Craig coming in after his warm-up/qualifying session (I think, from memory) crash and looking/feeling very second-hand...and you were all over his suspension like green on grass, casting accusing glances his way, as though to say "How could you...?", haha. (Yeah, I know it was going in his spare bike but it was kinda funny if you ignore the mangled bike and the fact that Craig was in obvious discomfort)

Suzuki NZ spend a LOT on road racing in NZ and have done so for many years, that singular fact is very very commendable. But also, I can well understand where they have to draw the line. Industry insiders know only too damn well that without their massive commitment road racing in NZ would be ( and I am not sorry for saying this ) in the metaphorical dark ages. Its commendable also that YMNZ stepped up to join the party and Honda have a presence albeit tiny. The other remaining big 4 name has got back out of it what they have put in.

Kawasaki don't seem to be a main player in any road racing series anywhere, but Honda are usually at the forefront just about everywhere, so it's suprising they haven't upped the ante in NZ.

We only have a small population and I think that it is important to not have too many fragmented classes.

I couldn't agree more. Personally I would have rather seen a close to stock 600 class (as suggested by Shaun) developed rather than Pro Twins because there is more scope for rider development and the machines are closer to the mainstream classes raced overseas. To fragment the classes even further would result in skill dilution rather than skill concentration, which is ultimately what will create better racing and better racers.

Maybe they cannot be blamed but training riders and crews in set up techniques is one of the biggest single factors that will assist the growth of the sport. To that end my company is currently engaged in finalising some initiatives re same.

WOOHOO, party time at CKT!



but hey, I dont care if you lick windows, interfare with farm animals, vote Labour or occasionally shit yourself...you hang in there sun shine, you are dam special:niceone:

Haha, that's the line of the week....you don't mind if I use that one do ya?

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;
WOOHOO, party time at CKT!



Haha, that's the line of the week....you don't mind if I use that one do ya?[/QUOTE]


Go for ya life sir, I shat laughing when I first read it:clap: I also New/hoped Robert would like it for a laugh for the day

[speedracerjimmy]

.

hi robert
roughly what price does the second hand parts that you mentioned about in an earlier post sell for...

[scott411]

ok , back to Shauns origanal point, the fact that it is too expensive to get into 600 sp,

what about looking at what the porshce series or the formula ford series do, that is run a different championship for the earlier models, you could pick a age (3 to 4 years) and have the same rules as the main class, just te bikes need to be older, it would keep the value in older 600o race bikes and make a stepping stone for guys wanting to come in to the class,

[Robert Taylor]

.

hi robert
roughly what price does the second hand parts that you mentioned about in an earlier post sell for...

Of course that largely depends on the reseller but I would expect something between $1500 to $2000 for fork cartridges. Ohlins cartridges also include their own top cap specific to each bike they are made for and the quick change feature for the springs is seriously trick. Rear shocks ( TTX36 ) maybe between $1300 to $1700.

[Robert Taylor]

ok , back to Shauns origanal point, the fact that it is too expensive to get into 600 sp,

what about looking at what the porshce series or the formula ford series do, that is run a different championship for the earlier models, you could pick a age (3 to 4 years) and have the same rules as the main class, just te bikes need to be older, it would keep the value in older 600o race bikes and make a stepping stone for guys wanting to come in to the class,

Racers already do that but I guess you are saying lets formalise it a little so the guys get a little recognition. This happens frequently in auto racing classes around the world.

[JJ58]

Yeah this is a great idea, but hang on, isn't there a class for older 600's already?? Yeah, "clubmans!".

The truth is that the running costs of an older 600 would still make it a very expensive class. The other con to this is that it's creating more division in the motorcycle classes that we already have, and instead of having a highly competitive intermediate class, we end up with two or three half competitive classes, with half competitive champions.

We already have two fantastic classes that a lot of people have put a lot of hard work into. These classes are cheaper than any older 600 and breed fantastic racers. The classes are also similar to what people can race when they go overseas. The bikes in the classes haven't out dated in many years and have limited suspension allowing for riders to know what it feels like to push a motorcycle. They're also all similiar in performance, making for some close racing. Parts are also cheap for these bikes, eliminating the "cheque book" racers that we have in other classes..... Can you guess what classes they are??.............. Yep, SS150 and Pro Twins.

Let's put effort into promoting these classes first, and then when the fields are full and they provide constant close racing with full grids nationally, like in CHCH, think about starting another intermediate class.

My two cents

[scott411]

this idea is more about getting the 600 class up to something like 40 riders, not the 20 odd it has now,

[Shaun]

this idea is more about getting the 600 class up to something like 40 riders, not the 20 odd it has now,



Scott, that was exactually why I started this thread, to help it grow more.

I have had some interesting private conversations with a few people about this idea. It has been put to me a few times, that we already have a class for my suggestions, and we already have a series for bringing on younger new riders, it is called THE WINTER SERIES:sunny:

In hindsight ( As per usual) I guess they are correct with there thoughts on this! I guess, if you want to be the man/women out there, you need to do more than others do, to win races:woohoo: Even if it means getting a 3rd job, or borrowing more some where some how, it really is an exspensive game in some ways, but IT IS THE NZ CHAMPS I guess, And suppose we should be trying to lift the level of that Championship, NOT PERHAPS lowering level of it?

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah this is a great idea, but hang on, isn't there a class for older 600's already?? Yeah, "clubmans!".

The truth is that the running costs of an older 600 would still make it a very expensive class. The other con to this is that it's creating more division in the motorcycle classes that we already have, and instead of having a highly competitive intermediate class, we end up with two or three half competitive classes, with half competitive champions.

We already have two fantastic classes that a lot of people have put a lot of hard work into. These classes are cheaper than any older 600 and breed fantastic racers. The classes are also similar to what people can race when they go overseas. The bikes in the classes haven't out dated in many years and have limited suspension allowing for riders to know what it feels like to push a motorcycle. They're also all similiar in performance, making for some close racing. Parts are also cheap for these bikes, eliminating the "cheque book" racers that we have in other classes..... Can you guess what classes they are??.............. Yep, SS150 and Pro Twins.

Let's put effort into promoting these classes first, and then when the fields are full and they provide constant close racing with full grids nationally, like in CHCH, think about starting another intermediate class.

My two cents

Just a point of clarification.........''limited suspension'' very / most often doesnt allow the rider to ''feel'' the motorcycle when pushed. That is one of the important reasons we engage in improving the suspension.

[Robert Taylor]

this idea is more about getting the 600 class up to something like 40 riders, not the 20 odd it has now,

That would be wonderful if a grid of 40 could be achieved but such a figure is only really attainable in a ''first world'' northern hemisphere country with a much larger population base. Im not being defeatist, I think that is the cold hard reality.

[Robert Taylor]

Scott, that was exactually why I started this thread, to help it grow more.

I have had some interesting private conversations with a few people about this idea. It has been put to me a few times, that we already have a class for my suggestions, and we already have a series for bringing on younger new riders, it is called THE WINTER SERIES:sunny:

In hindsight ( As per usual) I guess they are correct with there thoughts on this! I guess, if you want to be the man/women out there, you need to do more than others do, to win races:woohoo: Even if it means getting a 3rd job, or borrowing more some where some how, it really is an exspensive game in some ways, but IT IS THE NZ CHAMPS I guess, And suppose we should be trying to lift the level of that Championship, NOT PERHAPS lowering level of it?

Viewed in that light the sport is reasonably healthy, albeit there is always room for improvement.
We have both recognised the importance of the winter series rounds and therefore encouraging a number of competitors to have a go at the next ( and elite ) level, the national champs.
By being present at these winter rounds to assist with chassis and suspension setup that adds value. And I also see evidence of track day riders progressing into winter series racing.
I think one would fail to find road racing anywhere else in the world where set up assistance is offered at such very low cost, and very often out of good old fashioned kiwi goodwill.
Personally I embrace technology ( within sensible limits which they are ) and am not in favour of in any way ''dumbing down'' the two most elite classes or to put it another way removing aspiration.

[Bren_chch]

.

hi robert
roughly what price does the second hand parts that you mentioned about in an earlier post sell for...

Dont you check yopur private messages?

[Robert Taylor]

Dont you check yopur private messages?

Indeed I do but have had absolutely no messages from yourself / that subject matter. You can also e-mail to robert@crownkiwi.co.nz I check e-mail more frequently.

[brads]

Shit this is the funnist thing ive read,well today anyway.
Factory engines in NZ 600SP,now thats fucking funny.Having been privilaged enough to have riden for the "Factory" Honda and Suzuki teams here in NZ I can honestly say that Yes there are factory engines out there,in fact this year I will be riding an 08 CBR1000RR with are "Factory" engine.
Where did I get it you ask? Sshh, dont tell anyone but it came with the bike.
In fact the whole bike came from the Factory,Honda Factory in Japan that is.
The reason guys like Jimmy,Dennis etc have faster bikes is that they ride them faster,simple really.:apint:

[JJ58]

Scott, that was exactually why I started this thread, to help it grow more.

I have had some interesting private conversations with a few people about this idea. It has been put to me a few times, that we already have a class for my suggestions, and we already have a series for bringing on younger new riders, it is called THE WINTER SERIES:sunny:

In hindsight ( As per usual) I guess they are correct with there thoughts on this! I guess, if you want to be the man/women out there, you need to do more than others do, to win races:woohoo: Even if it means getting a 3rd job, or borrowing more some where some how, it really is an exspensive game in some ways, but IT IS THE NZ CHAMPS I guess, And suppose we should be trying to lift the level of that Championship, NOT PERHAPS lowering level of it?

I see no benefit to motorcycling in NZ by having a larger 600 field, other than to send potentially competitive international riders broke and unable to compete overseas.... But I'm relatively new to motorcycling, so maybe I'm missing something?

Shaun, I agree with you, you should do more than others to win. However I think this "more than others" should be skill training and working on race craft, not working 3 jobs to get enough finances for your burnt out slipper clutch or to fix your dropped titanium valves etc...

This mentality is why the skilled rider turnover is high in NZ, many skilled riders who make the mistake of going to 600's just go broke or get burnt out (I'm talking about the many how don't receive factory support). If they could stay in the sport then they'd raise the level of competition and drag up and comers through the ranks quicker.

Even with the new proposed 600 class the costs would be the same as, if not more than running a new 600. It's the running costs that's the killer, not just the purchase price.... If anyone disagrees, then they're not riding their 600 hard enough!

With effort being put into further promoting 125/pro twins/F3 instead of trying to start up another 600 class we could see the level of competition grow and be sustainable for new and mature racers, benefiting the NZ racing scene and also benefiting the many talented riders we have in this country. It'll also mean that the barriers for ambitious riders to compete internationally will be lowered, which again is far more beneficial to Motorcyling NZ than having a larger 600 grid.

It doesn't matter how high the level of 600 competition is in NZ, a fast NZ 600 rider would find it difficult to compete overseas in a 600 supersport class without having a sponsored ride. For example, here in Canada it's cheaper than the US, but you would still need a minimum of $40,000CDN to run a season in the Amatuer ranks on a 600. No one on a NZ wage could afford to do that even with the prize money here, especially if they had run the prior season on a 600 in NZ.

However, if they came over and ran one of the lower classes well, they could gain sponsorship to run the AM600 class here. You don't need 600 experience in NZ to run a lower class well!! Especially if the lower classes in NZ are highly competitive!... Get my point?

Let's not continue with our top down thinking!..... Start at the bottom, support our lower classes, get noticed talent overseas and then when we have a racer in MotoGP, use them for promoting motorcycle racing further.


Also: From my discussions with people, spectators don't come out to watch 600's or SBs, they come out to see some great racing, which could be in any class. (1 guy told me he fell asleep watching the 600 and SB races at Ruapuna, but thought the lower classes were fantastic to watch).

Also: (No disrespect to any champ, as in my books you're a legend) However I've been around people when they've won a NZ championship and they've been disspointed as it means didly squat!! There's little kudo's from other racers, there's bugger all prize money, no one outside of racing circles cares (especially now we have an Aussie SB champ), it hardly ever makes the news or papers and it means bugger all when you go overseas... On these grounds it's my advice to young up and comers to get fast in NZ, save your money and go overseas while you still can!!

Robert: I agree with you re the suspension development. We have some good classes for that, including F3 and 125. (F3 being our only class for "real" suspension/chassis development).

I think I'm up to 4 cents now.

[slowpoke]

I see no benefit to motorcycling in NZ by having a larger 600 field, other than to send potentially competitive international riders broke and unable to compete overseas.... But I'm relatively new to motorcycling, so maybe I'm missing something?

My concern is that we get full club grids but not exactly over-subscribed National grids...especially in Superbike. Surely the Nationals events should be the biggest of the year....but it doesn't seem to work out that way. I'm not sure why larger fields would send riders broke....?

Shaun, I agree with you, you should do more than others to win. However I think this "more than others" should be skill training and working on race craft, not working 3 jobs to get enough finances for your burnt out slipper clutch or to fix your dropped titanium valves etc...

These things are standard on road bikes nowadays, if ya broke it ya gotta fix it.... Entirely agree on the skills training but there is a marked lack of such training available in NZ.

This mentality is why the skilled rider turnover is high in NZ, many skilled riders who make the mistake of going to 600's just go broke or get burnt out (I'm talking about the many how don't receive factory support). If they could stay in the sport then they'd raise the level of competition and drag up and comers through the ranks quicker.

I dunno about the skilled rider turnover, I see the problem being a straight lack of skilled riders, fullstop. With the exception of Sam Smith, I can't think of a single rider under 30 who can challenge the same veteran campaigners standing on the podium. Compared to overseas where teenagers are setting the racing world alight.

With effort being put into further promoting 125/pro twins/F3 instead of trying to start up another 600 class we could see the level of competition grow and be sustainable for new and mature racers, benefiting the NZ racing scene and also benefiting the many talented riders we have in this country. It'll also mean that the barriers for ambitious riders to compete internationally will be lowered, which again is far more beneficial to Motorcyling NZ than having a larger 600 grid.

I agree re 125's but I think F3 is a wasted, almost backward step, sucking up valuable time if you are going to get overseas at a young enough age. I reckon if you can turn a quick lap on a 125 then get your arse onto a 600, you'll learn far more than you would on an F3 bike. It's no coincidence that the guys dominating F3 have all stepped back to F3, not stepped up to it.

It doesn't matter how high the level of 600 competition is in NZ, a fast NZ 600 rider would find it difficult to compete overseas in a 600 supersport class without having a sponsored ride. For example, here in Canada it's cheaper than the US, but you would still need a minimum of $40,000CDN to run a season in the Amatuer ranks on a 600. No one on a NZ wage could afford to do that even with the prize money here, especially if they had run the prior season on a 600 in NZ.

I don't see anyone being competitive in a hard fought overseas 600 series, on unfamiliar tracks if they are jumping off an F3 bike in NZ. You need as much exposure as you can get to the most challenging machinery which is 600/1000 whether we like it or not. You also need exposure to the best riders and to measure yourself against the highest standards...no use spending thousands to get over there and finding you are nowhere near as good as you thought you were.

Dom Jones has managed to make a good impression in the States running on a shoe string budget...you can make an impression without spending top dollar.

However, if they came over and ran one of the lower classes well, they could gain sponsorship to run the AM600 class here. You don't need 600 experience in NZ to run a lower class well!! Especially if the lower classes in NZ are highly competitive!... Get my point?

I'm not convinced...why would you go overseas if you haven't proven yourself against the best in NZ?

Let's not continue with our top down thinking!..... Start at the bottom, support our lower classes, get noticed talent overseas and then when we have a racer in MotoGP, use them for promoting motorcycle racing further.

It's not top down thinking, surely we need premier classes for for riders to aspire to? You have the fastest bikes, ridden by the best racers in the land, to prove who are our best and brightest racers. Would you have the NZ Grand Prix raced by F3 bikes or street stocks?

On these grounds it's my advice to young up and comers to get fast in NZ, save your money and go overseas while you still can!!

Couldn't agree more...but to prove you are seriously fast you need to have ridden a seriously fast bike which in my mind needs to be at least a 600 and preferably a 1000.


...................

[JJ58]

I can see this conversation just going around in circles, and regardless of who agrees with who/what is right it's all just going to be talk. It's unlikely any action will be taken from this thread. We all want the same thing long term, but just have a different view on how to acheive it....... I've run out of cash so I'm signing off @ 6 cents :-)

[Robert Taylor]

I can see this conversation just going around in circles, and regardless of who agrees with who/what is right it's all just going to be talk. It's unlikely any action will be taken from this thread. We all want the same thing long term, but just have a different view on how to acheive it....... I've run out of cash so I'm signing off @ 6 cents :-)

Hey I thought your last detailed post was very perceptive of the realities.

[moT]

so how much would it cost for a race winning 600cc bike aswell as expences for running it for a season? and this is why im going to china to race in the CSBK there is more oppertunities

[jrandom]

im going to china to race in the CSBK there is more oppertunities

:crazy:

More opportunities to get easy Chinese pussy, maybe.

Dunno about advancement in the racing world.

Still, there's a lot to be said for easy Chinese pussy.

[moT]

:crazy:

More opportunities to get easy Chinese pussy, maybe.

Dunno about advancement in the racing world.

Still, there's a lot to be said for easy Chinese pussy.

lol... well i plan to move to HK soon anyway and i dont wanna give up racing so racing in china will be sweet

[Robert Taylor]

lol... well i plan to move to HK soon anyway and i dont wanna give up racing so racing in china will be sweet

When I lived in London on the early 80s I can well remember an advertising slogan that a travel agent had at the time....''Visit Russia before Russia visits you'' I think that mentality can be paraphrased. Very sad and very true.

[svr]

Getting back to boring old motorbikes for a second - isnt the best race bike class the fastest for your dollar? (without being stupid)
i.e. $14 k production 600s for say 1:10s at Manfield is a pretty good deal right?
better than 30k F3 bikes for 1:13s, or 20k protwins for 1:15s?
And there are 5 manufacturers currently building seeming pupose-built track bikes, etc. etc.
Just a thought.

[Robert Taylor]

Getting back to boring old motorbikes for a second - isnt the best race bike class the fastest for your dollar? (without being stupid)
i.e. $14 k production 600s for say 1:10s at Manfield is a pretty good deal right?
better than 30k F3 bikes for 1:13s, or 20k protwins for 1:15s?
And there are 5 manufacturers currently building seeming pupose-built track bikes, etc. etc.
Just a thought.

Maybe Im missing something or am having brain fadeor am just over-tired, what are these purpose built track bikes? ( This is a genuine question )

[cowpoos]

Getting back to boring old motorbikes for a second - isnt the best race bike class the fastest for your dollar? (without being stupid)
i.e. $14 k production 600s for say 1:10s at Manfield is a pretty good deal right?
better than 30k F3 bikes for 1:13s, or 20k protwins for 1:15s?
And there are 5 manufacturers currently building seeming pupose-built track bikes, etc. etc.
Just a thought.

1:10 on a stock 600? that would be bloody impressive!!

[Robert Taylor]

1:10 on a stock 600? that would be bloody impressive!!

Indeed, especially if you could get the tyres to last more than a couple of laps

[svr]

Maybe Im missing something or am having brain fadeor am just over-tired, what are these purpose built track bikes? ( This is a genuine question )

600 production bikes (that is the thread). They are developed and tested primarily on race tracks, right?
Has anyone sane taken an R6 touring with the wife on the back recently? Me neither. A ridiculous road bike really.
R6s (and CBRs, ZX-6s etc.) seem to work remarkably well at the track though (what does it cost to get a `proper race car' to do 10s at Manfield?).
They work so well `standard' (yes that horrible word) that it costs the original purchase price to improve one by 3 seconds faster around a track.
Around 2002 all of the japanese manufacturers made statements to the effect that their 600s were now developed to maximize their racetrack performance, with road performance openly compromised.
That was my point - this perfomance is now readily available at a low price point.

As a negative point to the 600 production case however, and one Robert you could shed some light on - I read in a magazine today that suspension tuners have noticed that original equipment suspension has actually lowered in quality over the last couple of years, as if manufacturers just expect racers or anyone serious to just bin the fork cartridges and shocks for aftermarket replacements (??) A worrying trend.

[svr]

1:10 on a stock 600? that would be bloody impressive!!

If a (near) pensioner (no offense Terry) on an 85hp sv can do 12s, NZs best racers would go 2 seconds faster on 110 hp 600s.

[cowpoos]

.
Around 2002 all of the japanese manufacturers made statements to the effect that their 600s were now developed to maximize their racetrack performance, with road performance openly compromised.
That was my point - this perfomance is now readily available at a low price point.
.

errr...you heard of the concept of marketing??

[moT]

so how much does it cost for a race winning spec 600 and the running costs for a season? anyone

[svr]

errr...you heard of the concept of marketing??

Yes, but in this case the statements corresponded with such small machine details as:
lowered handlebars, raised rearsets, powerbands that only started at 10k, rock-hard seats, etc, etc. Oh and plummeting laps times.
And those manufacturers developing `road bikes' alongside their 600s when previously those 600s could do it all.

[CHOPPA]

so how much does it cost for a race winning spec 600 and the running costs for a season? anyone

Theres probably only 1 or 2 guys that could actually answer that. My bike is now prob able to win races with the right rider and it has cost $16k all up. Each national round would cost 3 sets of tyres at whatever you pay and then just the usual on fuel and travel entrys gear etc but thats like any other class also maybe breakages and maybe an engine freshen up. Should be able to save most of your used tyres for practice. once the bike is set up if you were to stay on then the only diff in cost to run your bike compared to like pro twins is tyre consumption

[moT]

Theres probably only 1 or 2 guys that could actually answer that. My bike is now prob able to win races with the right rider and it has cost $16k all up. Each national round would cost 3 sets of tyres at whatever you pay and then just the usual on fuel and travel entrys gear etc but thats like any other class also maybe breakages and maybe an engine freshen up. Should be able to save most of your used tyres for practice. once the bike is set up if you were to stay on then the only diff in cost to run your bike compared to like pro twins is tyre consumption

thats not toooo bad thanks

[svr]

I saw $35000 get poured into a 600SP bike this past season, and I didn't charge for labour on it.

see others

[Robert Taylor]

600 production bikes (that is the thread). They are developed and tested primarily on race tracks, right?
Has anyone sane taken an R6 touring with the wife on the back recently? Me neither. A ridiculous road bike really.
R6s (and CBRs, ZX-6s etc.) seem to work remarkably well at the track though (what does it cost to get a `proper race car' to do 10s at Manfield?).
They work so well `standard' (yes that horrible word) that it costs the original purchase price to improve one by 3 seconds faster around a track.
Around 2002 all of the japanese manufacturers made statements to the effect that their 600s were now developed to maximize their racetrack performance, with road performance openly compromised.
That was my point - this perfomance is now readily available at a low price point.

As a negative point to the 600 production case however, and one Robert you could shed some light on - I read in a magazine today that suspension tuners have noticed that original equipment suspension has actually lowered in quality over the last couple of years, as if manufacturers just expect racers or anyone serious to just bin the fork cartridges and shocks for aftermarket replacements (??) A worrying trend.

In 1938 Neville Chamberlain hopped off a plane having signed a treaty with a short german dictator. Poor ol Nev waved a piece of paper proclaiming ''peace in our time''. Here in NZ we have a Government led by a party that over the decades has proclaimed its for the working man...what a load of bollocks! I think motorcycle manufacturers marketing is as misleading and ''thin'' as statements from politicians.
The reality is that the machines you quote are indeed uncomfortable on the road for any given distance and their chassis geometry is ''race ready''. But there are shortcomings that actually dont make them ''race fit'', if you like.
And YES, we are seeing more evidence of sealed and very cheaply made cartridges. Despite all the PR hype these things are made by accountants who make a career out of finding cheaper and cheaper ways to make things. That is precisely why makers of high quality well performing goods prosper.

What is the magazine ( and month ) you were reading?

[Robert Taylor]

If a (near) pensioner (no offense Terry) on an 85hp sv can do 12s, NZs best racers would go 2 seconds faster on 110 hp 600s.

Thats because another ''near pensioner'' supplies and fettles his suspension!

[CHOPPA]

I have a 600 im selling thats fully capable of winning most club days depending on the rider and im selling it for 8k, you could even ride it to work or the track for that matter.

[svr]

In 1938 Neville Chamberlain hopped off a plane having signed a treaty with a short german dictator. Poor ol Nev waved a piece of paper proclaiming ''peace in our time''. Here in NZ we have a Government led by a party that over the decades has proclaimed its for the working man...what a load of bollocks! I think motorcycle manufacturers marketing is as misleading and ''thin'' as statements from politicians.
The reality is that the machines you quote are indeed uncomfortable on the road for any given distance and their chassis geometry is ''race ready''. But there are shortcomings that actually dont make them ''race fit'', if you like.
And YES, we are seeing more evidence of sealed and very cheaply made cartridges. Despite all the PR hype these things are made by accountants who make a career out of finding cheaper and cheaper ways to make things. That is precisely why makers of high quality well performing goods prosper.

What is the magazine ( and month ) you were reading?

I personally think that the major manufacturers produce quality machines and have made a staggering amount of RACE TRACK performance available to riders today - $14K for a gsxr-600? All engineers/manufacturers work to budget, thankfully for us actual riders who have to pay for performance.
I wasn't actually refering to all the ad men hype (I too hate advertising), but to their design engineers, who have admitted that they now design motorcycles with a low road focus - not really boasting but stating different design goals, which have undeniably shifted most notably around 5yrs ago (why can't we agree on that?)

That article is in `performance bikes' - currently on the news stands.

Hey RT why don't you start a political thread ! - we can discuss how socialist Russia stopped that short german right-wing fascist elistist. Or how the 4th Labour govt shafted the nz working man with free-market reform (what the...) And National changed nothing when given the chance. Or how there's no Left, Right or indeed even such thing as sovereign nation-state democracy anymore, just global/corporate capitalism with red-tape, moral rhetoric and politicians saying anything to get approval from the herd.
Crazy times. And accountants building incredibly fast bloody motorbikes - well I never!

[Robert Taylor]

I personally think that the major manufacturers produce quality machines and have made a staggering amount of RACE TRACK performance available to riders today - $14K for a gsxr-600? All engineers/manufacturers work to budget, thankfully for us actual riders who have to pay for performance.
I wasn't actually refering to all the ad men hype (I too hate advertising), but to their design engineers, who have admitted that they now design motorcycles with a low road focus - not really boasting but stating different design goals, which have undeniably shifted most notably around 5yrs ago (why can't we agree on that?)

That article is in `performance bikes' - currently on the news stands.

Hey RT why don't you start a political thread ! - we can discuss how socialist Russia stopped that short german right-wing fascist elistist. Or how the 4th Labour govt shafted the nz working man with free-market reform (what the...) And National changed nothing when given the chance. Or how there's no Left, Right or indeed even such thing as sovereign nation-state democracy anymore, just global/corporate capitalism with red-tape, moral rhetoric and politicians saying anything to get approval from the herd.
Crazy times. And accountants building incredibly fast bloody motorbikes - well I never!

You know theres a lot there that I agree with, the trouble is the smoke and mirrors stuff fools a lot of the people a lot of the time, and yes the working man is being screwed by both ends of the ( now fuzzy ) political divide.

[svs]

This is a cool thread. lots of good ideas. Here's my thoughts - as an kind of average racer who pays his own way through the nationals.

I know that i don't have the talent of the top guys, I'm out there for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. I spend pretty much all of my spare cash and more on my bike racing because to me it what I enjoy, even if i do end up running at the back of the field.

I started racing 600s last year on a 2005 bike. Kit parts on the engine, a 99 ohlins rear shock and standard front.

1st big improvement was getting RT to get the correct spring rate in the rear shock for me. This made a huge improvement. Also bought a slightly different rate spring for the tracks down south. Why? because the better spring would make the tyres last longer! If a correct spring could save me 1 rear tyre over the course of the nationals - it's paid for itself.

Next big thing was the standard front wasn't up to pushing it at levels. While down there I hit a bump in the track while cornering and it just couldn't cope. just washed out - and i wasn't going anywhere near as the fast as the front runners. Would aftermarket suspension have helped up front? I think so. And it would have saved me $$$ in repair bill (new subframe, new arrow exhaust mid-pipe, fairing repair etc....)

2nd thing was the addition of ohlins springs up front. which helped, then the addition of a ohlins UES (total cost ~$1000) which helped even more (Thanks Kerry). but since i had that crash at manfeild I couldn't really benefit from that much.

What was the biggest cost of running the nationals for me? tyres. by a long way. accomodation down south I stayed at family/friends/campsites and had a ball. so if the aim of the game is to get the cost down, then please allow aftermarket suspension tweaks - I really think it did/would have saved me money. After tyres the next big cost is paying for travel and track time (which leads to needing more tyres :( ), the actual cost of the bike itself hasn't been the limiting factor for me.

Oh, and i'm one of the lucky ones who's bought a Dave C bike with lots of nice bits on. I know the bike is more than capable of running at the front, the only thing slowing it down is the rider - but I'm there to learn and above all - have fun! I have much more fun on a bike I have confidence in, than pushing a bog stock bike to or past it's limits :) I have the choice of getting a new bike and paying $$$ to develop it, or just running with what someone else had put the time and money into. The work these guys do will filter down to the rest of the field.

As for getting newer riders into the class. start on a year or 2 old bike with the nice parts added. My old bike with a talented rider on board would be capable of running in the 1:10's - 1:11's at manfeild. Ok you might not quite win, but you'd be up there. Price $10k, I've sunk the money into the bike - someone else could take advantage of it. Or get a new bike and leave it stock. It'll still be there or there abouts in terms of speed, but you will find that in the long term replacing OEM parts with decent aftermarket stuff does save money. Buy that and spend your money on tyres and track time and improve yourself as a rider.

The 600SP rules over here isn't a million miles from stock and it appears to work. Lets leave it that way. It's certainly more affordable than the aussie supersport spec machines.

And above all lets not take anything away from the handful of guys who get out there and race and have talent. Craig, Dennis, Andrew, Jay, James etc. have all showed what's possible and it's not all down to $$$. These guys have serious skill and deserve to be at the front. If you want to be as fast as these fellas, then it will cost you. but mainly in hard work and commitment.

[steveyb]

Rumour or not, it doesn't matter, it speaks to the dedication and effort that any top sportsperson MUST put in if they wish to be at the top.
Dennis wore out a bike (engine) training for this years NZSBK championships, along with the hours of cycling and other training.
It doesn't matter if it is true, the truth will be somewhere there, it is the principle that matters.

Save your engine development money, spend it on suspension and tyres and TRACK TIME!! Then you will develop your talent so that you can beat Dennis, Craig, Andrew etc. Come on youse young-uns, it can't be too hard, Dennis is a Grand-dad after all!!! ;-)

My 2c worth.

Enjoy.

Steve

[codgyoleracer]

Hey Rob, NO where has it been suggested in this thread that AFTERMARKET suspension be banned!

It has been suggested, that we start a class with in a class, to HELP bring on younger 600 riders, for a shit load less money out lay, That is all, nothing sinister in here at all

but hey, I dont care if you lick windows, interfare with farm animals, vote Labour or occasionally shit yourself...you hang in there sun shine, you are dam special:niceone:

The "class within class" comment makes some sense in both 600 & SBK, - maybe this could be simply called the "privateers class" & the guys n gals run different colour number boards so that joe blo public can tell when one of the 'privateers" is giving the fast fellas a bit of a hurry-up + it allows the media observer to identify & highlight these competitors clearly.

It also deletes the problem of reducing field numbers (that creating a stand-alone new race class might do by stealing riders form other race fields)

A bonus of the "privateer" class also is that the medium/fast to fast-ish club bloke can have a genuine crack at a title (or even a podium finish within a series at his/her local track) - giving the rider & any sponsors a nice warm cosy feeling.

We already see a lot of club racers & young up n comers not entering national events for the reason that they feel tha they are out of their depth , however a privateers class may well get a few back in there. The exposure that these class newbies will get & their resultant lift in race knowledge will with luck allow them to kick-on & take the next step.

As far as machine spec is concerned - then there are plenty of "superstock" classes run around the world to take pointers from. However - the other alternative is that you run a bike under the current rules - but riders cant be distributer backed. (like aussie ?). (Or maybe - one season old machines only qualify, - this gives a real home for these machines to go to.... ????)

Dont ask me how to monitor it though !

Glen W

[Billy]

NO FREAKIN WAY is it going to be safe too run a privateer type class within either 600SP or Production Superbike at national level or anywhere else in my opinion.Its dangerous enough now with some riders being lapped twice under the current format.Imagine the amount of riders being lapped on production bikes going 2-3 seconds a lap slower than the backmarkers are now!

[Tony.OK]

NO FREAKIN WAY is it going to be safe too run a privateer type class within either 600SP or Production Superbike at national level or anywhere else in my opinion.Its dangerous enough now with some riders being lapped twice under the current format.Imagine the amount of riders being lapped on production bikes going 2-3 seconds a lap slower than the backmarkers are now!

So you're saying if a rider isn't as fast as the leading group they shouldn't be allowed to race?

[svs]

So you're saying if a rider isn't as fast as the leading group they shouldn't be allowed to race?

There's currently a qualifying cut off at 115% lap time. If you don't qualify, you don't race. That's there for safety reasons.

Another way to do it is by having a graduated license structure like in the UK. Novice -> Clubman -> National. You don't get national level license until you are finishing in the top 50% of the field at club level on 6 different circuits. But that's a different discussion I think

[Robert Taylor]

This is a cool thread. lots of good ideas. Here's my thoughts - as an kind of average racer who pays his own way through the nationals.

I know that i don't have the talent of the top guys, I'm out there for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. I spend pretty much all of my spare cash and more on my bike racing because to me it what I enjoy, even if i do end up running at the back of the field.

I started racing 600s last year on a 2005 bike. Kit parts on the engine, a 99 ohlins rear shock and standard front.

1st big improvement was getting RT to get the correct spring rate in the rear shock for me. This made a huge improvement. Also bought a slightly different rate spring for the tracks down south. Why? because the better spring would make the tyres last longer! If a correct spring could save me 1 rear tyre over the course of the nationals - it's paid for itself.

Next big thing was the standard front wasn't up to pushing it at levels. While down there I hit a bump in the track while cornering and it just couldn't cope. just washed out - and i wasn't going anywhere near as the fast as the front runners. Would aftermarket suspension have helped up front? I think so. And it would have saved me $$$ in repair bill (new subframe, new arrow exhaust mid-pipe, fairing repair etc....)

2nd thing was the addition of ohlins springs up front. which helped, then the addition of a ohlins UES (total cost ~$1000) which helped even more (Thanks Kerry). but since i had that crash at manfeild I couldn't really benefit from that much.

What was the biggest cost of running the nationals for me? tyres. by a long way. accomodation down south I stayed at family/friends/campsites and had a ball. so if the aim of the game is to get the cost down, then please allow aftermarket suspension tweaks - I really think it did/would have saved me money. After tyres the next big cost is paying for travel and track time (which leads to needing more tyres :( ), the actual cost of the bike itself hasn't been the limiting factor for me.

Oh, and i'm one of the lucky ones who's bought a Dave C bike with lots of nice bits on. I know the bike is more than capable of running at the front, the only thing slowing it down is the rider - but I'm there to learn and above all - have fun! I have much more fun on a bike I have confidence in, than pushing a bog stock bike to or past it's limits :) I have the choice of getting a new bike and paying $$$ to develop it, or just running with what someone else had put the time and money into. The work these guys do will filter down to the rest of the field.

As for getting newer riders into the class. start on a year or 2 old bike with the nice parts added. My old bike with a talented rider on board would be capable of running in the 1:10's - 1:11's at manfeild. Ok you might not quite win, but you'd be up there. Price $10k, I've sunk the money into the bike - someone else could take advantage of it. Or get a new bike and leave it stock. It'll still be there or there abouts in terms of speed, but you will find that in the long term replacing OEM parts with decent aftermarket stuff does save money. Buy that and spend your money on tyres and track time and improve yourself as a rider.

The 600SP rules over here isn't a million miles from stock and it appears to work. Lets leave it that way. It's certainly more affordable than the aussie supersport spec machines.

And above all lets not take anything away from the handful of guys who get out there and race and have talent. Craig, Dennis, Andrew, Jay, James etc. have all showed what's possible and it's not all down to $$$. These guys have serious skill and deserve to be at the front. If you want to be as fast as these fellas, then it will cost you. but mainly in hard work and commitment.

Id like to add to that with respect to the trickle down effect of suspension mods. The distributors and their affiliated riders in effect subsidise the privateers, set up knowledge and settings established with these riders trickles down to the privateer ranks. Or at least it does with my own personal activities with aftermarket suspension.

[Billy]

So you're saying if a rider isn't as fast as the leading group they shouldn't be allowed to race?

Nope,What Im saying is the 115% Qualifying cut must be adhered to,to keep it safe and if youre running a Production class within a Formula class then it would have to be within 115% of the fastest qualifier of the formula class or else it would become chaos after the first couple of laps