the "trust" factor when cornering

[Duke of Rogan]

As a rookie who is still learning to stay upright, I'm not trying to offer any riding advice, but just sharing an idea :)

During my last decent open road weekend ride on a dry day, I experienced a corner that felt different, so much so that I and the bike turned more than I expected, which got me thinking about this.

When taking a corner at speed (or minimal use of the brakes) there are 3 important things that the rider must trust in order to complete the turn successfully

1. trust in the road conditions / environment

2. trust in the bike's mechanics and tyres

3. trust in your own ability, or failing this no fear of falling off


usually when riding I have no trust in the road or my own riding ability (yet) and I'm often thinking about my tyres, but this one corner from the other day was different and it felt good!
I can't wait to go through it again :cool:

[MikeL]

Originally posted by Duke of Rogan


When taking a corner at speed (or minimal use of the brakes) there are 3 important things that the rider must trust in order to complete the turn successfully

1. trust in the road conditions / environment

2. trust in the bike's mechanics and tyres

3. trust in your own ability, or failing this no fear of falling off



I think trust comes from experience. To start with, you shouldn't trust any of those 3 factors and so you take the corner much slower than a more seasoned rider. With experience you can start to trust the 2nd and 3rd, but the 1st is always problematical unless you only ever ride familiar roads. I suspect that many of us take a calculated risk on unfamiliar corners more often than we would admit.

[Kwaka-Kid]

i ahve as much faith in my tyres as they have in me.

im sure the tarmac provides more grip to my tyres then my tyres provide to the tarmac :)

if that makes sense in anybody else's head but mine.

[Marmoot]

trust in my footpeg.
If it drags the road, the road is good.

Sorry, just kidding.

[MikeL]

Originally posted by Kwaka-Kid
I have as much faith in my tyres as they have in me.



Which explains a lot

:p

[Lee Rusty]

1. trust in the road conditions / environment

2. trust in the bike's mechanics and tyres

3. trust in your own ability, or failing this no fear of falling off


Hmmmmm It all comes down to you.

1 YOU must read the road -
2 YOU are responsiblie for your bike maintainence and tyres
3 YOU must leaarn to ride well enough to trust your ability.

4 Falling off means you have done it wrong, so is not a real option.

I have been training riders for 20 years and the most common thing I run across is that riders don not look far enough through the corners. Followed by lack of understanding of countersteering.
If you can get these sorted you will feel at ease and ride smoother, smoother equals faster.

Where are you located - If your Auckland based I can show you a few things.

[wkid_one]

Originally posted by Marmoot
trust in my footpeg.
If it drags the road, the road is good.


Does that include dragging along the ground when the bike is rapidly shedding fairing without rider?

[wkid_one]

Agree with Lee - this brings back the whole - you can't ride a bike without countersteering argument......

Bikes typically don't have accidents - riders do. A bike won't run in to a merging car coz it wants to - rather coz the rider didn't see it.

ToTW2 goes through the 7 deadly habits of motorcycle reading (rolling off throttle, grabbing brakes, hunting etc) - which is well worth a read if you are new. 

I thought I was doing well having 6/7 of these, then turned the page and he said you don't want to display any!!

Road conditions is always dicey - especially in NZ - where we share the roads with Cattle/Sheep/Farmers/Lorries etc and agree with Mike that often we 'over-estimate' our safety margin here.

Lee's offer of riding training would be well worth while - in fact if enough KB decide to take it up - we could hire a track and make a day of it ( and it worth Lees time).  I know I would pay for that.

[Lee Rusty]

Can I ask a question ?

Do you understand the term Countersteering and the principals that are involved?

I have spoken to hundeds of riders who know the term but thats it.

[Lee Rusty]

Also can I ask how you brake?

FOr instance Front first, back first, both together?

One finger, two finger, four finger on front, etc ?

[MrMelon]

I've just read a twist of the wrist 2, and it's pretty helpful. I might read it again next week before it's due back at the library. There's lots of good stuff in there, and after you read it, you start consciously noticing all of the bad things that you were doing, but you know how to correct them. Eg. having too much weight on the bars, letting off the throttle in corners, having stuff arms.. stuff like that.

I'd recommend anyone who hasn't read it to take a look at it.

[Coldkiwi]

Lee, perhaps you could add a post to the FAQ section about 'what is countersteering' and a few pointers on 'what is the correct way to apply the brakes'.. although I guess the second section could get a bit lengthy!

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
Where are you located - If your Auckland based I can show you a few things.

yup, I'm in Auckland and it sounds like I need to pay you a visit!

I don't know all the principals involved in countersteering, but understand that when travelling above 30km/h (or so) turning the handles one direction results in the bike going the other, and using this with the appropriate amount of leaning results in better cornering.

cheers

[Slim]

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
Can I ask a question ?
Have you ever done the Southern Cross Run on a GN250 with a load of steak along for the ride on the Southern leg???

Have you ever owned a bike with a sidecar unit?

Enquiring minds would like to know. :)

[Lee Rusty]

guilty

yep thats me - I won $5 bet by taking the GN on the SCRR

had to carry the BBq as well

Still got Honda outfit - same chair different bike.

so whos the enquiring mind

CBR600 - COuld be a Warwick -???

[Lee Rusty]

I see you ride a TZR 3XV - I have a good straight frame and rear shock for one of those, can I interest you.

[andy1]

...

[MrMelon]

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
I see you ride a TZR 3XV - I have a good straight frame and rear shock for one of those, can I interest you.

 

My frame and rear shock are well straight.. and I'm planning to keep it that way!! :P 

[Marmoot]

Originally posted by wkid_one
Does that include dragging along the ground when the bike is rapidly shedding fairing without rider?

YES! IT MEANS THE ROAD IS BLOODY BASTARDLY GOOD!!!!!

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Lee Rusty]

Fair enuff - lets hope so - just thought I'd let you know.

[Slim]

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
guilty

yep thats me - I won $5 bet by taking the GN on the SCRR

had to carry the BBq as well

Still got Honda outfit - same chair different bike.

so whos the enquiring mind

CBR600 - COuld be a Warwick -???
You took me on my first Blood Run on the back of the Honda, with Donna in the sidecar unit, some ahem 10+ years ago. :) 13 years! I didn't have a bike at the time, or a licence for that matter, but was riding anything my mates would lend to me, and ended up putting a lot of kms on an RG400 during the next couple of years.

I eventually had to get my licence, if I wanted to buy a bike on finance, and brought a GB250 that did me well for a couple of years, before getting my full licence and an older GSXR400. :) I've had my CBR6 for almost 5 years now, and just loving it.

Nice to see you found KiwiBiker. I hope to catch up some time in the near future. :)

[Motu]

While we are getting personal Lee Rusty - have you also had a Volkswaggon powered Ural outfit?

[Lee Rusty]

so who is the enquiring mind - gotta name - do I know you?

[Lee Rusty]

sorry I didnt see your reply - yep I remeber you - I saw you in Te Kuiti a couple of years back at the Wheel roadhouse if I remember right.

Sorry I didnt look close enuff the first time and see the "girl" symbol - and thought you might be Warwick.

[Lee Rusty]

Yep thats me as well - if you know where that outfit is now I would be keen to reacquire it.

Last time I heard it was in Waiuku area and it was crashed at beach races.
not sure how reliable that info is

So who is behind Motu - gotta name I might recognise - you can use private of email if you want to be anon.

What it is to known huh ? But I do like to know who im talking to.
:beer:

[Motu]

We did a swapparoo - I got a nice CB750,you got something not on most peoples wish list.Shit,that was an insane piece of work wasn't it? I want it back too! I went to spend the next 10yrs or more on Waiheke Island the next week - wish I had of kept the outfit,it was much more suited to the rough roads than a CB750.Swapped the Honda for a bloody car!

I came across a tall lanky guy on a Shovel once who had a picture of it in his collection of past bikes - where did it go from you?

You used to come up to my shop on 100cc bikes - I recon if they got that far they passed the test! Good to make contact with you all these years later,something I'm doing a bit of since coming back to the smoke in '96.

Psst! got any photos of it - people just don't believe me when I tell them about it!

[Lee Rusty]

this is getting interesting - more like the old friends site
people I know coming out of the woodwork.
A pleasure it is too - being able to catch up with old mates - and the odd pretty blonde dont go astray either.

However it seems Motu doesnt know where the old VW sidecar outfit is - does anyone else.

[Motu]

Roy Gardener had one too,but his was much nicer than old Metalstorm.

I have family in Waiuku,time for some sniffing.

[Duke of Rogan]

crikey, someone should introduce you guys to the Private message feature of the forum, or even email :-)

nice to see the inter-web bringing people together ;)

anyways, Lee, any chance of a brief informative blurb on the "principals of countersteering" ?

was I close when I said something like: "turning the handles one direction results in the bike going the other, and using this with the appropriate amount of leaning results in better cornering." ?

what I'd like to achieve is to get the feeling that the bike is taking me through the corner, and I'm not wrestling it around sort of thing...

[wkid_one]

Short and technical answer: the term is GYROSCOPIC PRECESSION. The motion of the wheels makes the bike lean opposite the direction of the bars, thus when you turn the bars to the right, the motorcycle leans to the left. Something about the resistance of the path of travel (inertia?) and centrifugal force. I don't know how it works, it just does. It's sort of like religion that way. For detailed explanations of gyroscopic precession, maybe contact a physicist.

For the long (and more useful) answer: it's important to understand, and most people do not, that countersteering doesn't TURN the bike, it only LEANS the bike. The bike actually turns like you think it should, by pointing the tire in the direction you want to turn. You just can't tell you're doing it.

A bike has to lean to turn (to overpower centrifugal force and gyroscopic precession), right? You could use your body weight to lean the bike, but that's not very efficient, especially if you need to do it quickly. (That's why so many untrained riders crash - they're trying to lean the bike, but just can't do it fast enough for the bad situation they've let themselves get into.) To lean the bike QUICKLY, countersteering is the way to go. Press left, go left. You know the drill.

What happens is the bike leans over to the left with the front tire pointed to the right, and then, because of gravity or whatever pulling the tire downward, the front tire eventually does turn toward the left. The bike wouldn't turn if it didn't! When you're finally making your turn, the handlebars are turned in the correct direction (pointed left to go left) but you can't feel it, because now the tire is trying to go farther left (gravity rearing it's ugly head?), and you need continued pressure on the left handgrip to keep in from leaning and turning further! That's why it feels as if you're continuing to turn the bars to the right.

You can prove this to yourself with your bike in the garage. Stand behind the bike, with the handlebars squared and the front tire pointed straight forward, and hold on to the back grab rail or whatever. Pretend the bike is going straight down the road. You may have to have somebody help you. Now, without holding onto the handlebars, carefully lean the bike to the left (DON'T drop it!) As the lean angle increases, the front tire is pulled down, turning the handlebars to the left. You can even simulate countersteering by initially turning the bars a little to the right, then leaning the bike left. The front tire will still turn left.

Summary: you countersteer to lean, not turn. It's just one of those things you shouldn't think about too much.:niceone:

Not my words - but you get the idea

[Lee Rusty]

we have now established email contact - it is hard when people dont tell you who they are to start with.


As to countersteering the explaination above is correct but I might be able to make it easier to under stand - I am trying to make an invisable force visable if you know what I mean.

Think of an ice cream cone. it has a big end and a small end - lay it flat on a table and push the big end - It does not roll straight
it rolls big end around the small end. Right.

Now think of M/c tyre.

A motorcycle tyre is not flat in section it is half round and the diameter of a 19 inch tyre is from centre to widest point.

If the centre of the tyre is 19 in (or 17, 18, or whatever) by pushing left on bars it moves a fraction of an inch off the centre of the tyre and the widest point - 19in rolls around the 18.75inch (or whatever) and thus turns tyre to the Left and starts the lean

But really that is only the basic description of the physical action.
It is also tied critically to rider vision. Drop me an email this is a subject that is easier to explain with a M/c. It doesnt take long to get a grasp of it.

[Lee Rusty]

ALso would like to know how your bike is set up - tyre pressures
can be critical, as well as just the wear on your tyres. Not to mention suspension settings etc.

But in my experiance nearly always the rider can make the greatest improvement. If you get him or her right then the adjustments can be made with confidence. The adjustments to the bike won't cover rider inexperiance.

[What?]

True. Wkid went from Really Bad Rider to Moto GP Rider in one day!!:D

BTW Wkid, that was a nice, concise description of gyroscopic precession and it's effect on motorcycle steering. (but can ya powersteer? Ha?):p

[wkid_one]

In all honesty - I am struggling right now with the turning prowess of the new bike - compared with the VTR...my god.....kinda offputting - but nice - it feels like powersteering

[Duke of Rogan]

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
ALso would like to know how your bike is set up - tyre pressures
can be critical, as well as just the wear on your tyres. Not to mention suspension settings etc.

But in my experiance nearly always the rider can make the greatest improvement. If you get him or her right then the adjustments can be made with confidence. The adjustments to the bike won't cover rider inexperiance.

I'll get in touch with you to organise a chat :)

I've only had this bike a few months and havent touched the suspension.
although front shocks just got new seals and fluid, not sure if adjustable though. The setup feels pretty good, but then I'm no expert....
Air pressure is set to manufactures recommendations of 32PSI front and 35PSI rear (Dragon Evo tyres)

I have attempted a string line wheel alignment a couple of times, but have only just suss'ed how to do this properly (I think)

[bluninja]

Countersteering...Lee, that's a can of worms you've opened. I like your explanation with the cone for how you create the cornering thrust, but my belief (back to religion so soon) is that as you turn the bars, the momentum of the bike pushes the bike over the front tyre, inducing the lean. Just turning the front wheel should not cause the tyre contact patch to move sideways (doesn't when the bike is stationary). It makes me marvel at the qualities of these black rubber hoops we put on our bikes. Not only keeping us shiny side up, but generating so much sideways thrust.

For me the 'trust' factor when cornering is more about who's cutting across a right hand corner into my path. If on the road I feel I'm pushing my own envelope, then either I'm riding too fast, or I'm looking in the wrong place (ie just in front of my bike at the road).

TTFN

[Lee Rusty]

I did qualify what I said with this statement.......

I might be able to make it easier to under stand - I am trying to make an invisable force visable if you know what I mean.


it is difficult to get a handle on unless you visualize it

CS can be demonstrated by holding a bicycle wheel by the axle with arms straight in front at shoulder level and have someone spin the wheel. try to turn it one way and it will fight back and turn the other. - arms are same principle as forks

It is the hardest thing to explain to people - and I have given my explaination as an easy way to visualize it

To Duke - going on what you said about your bike set up I think that what you are looking for is in you and easy to put right - if I am right maybe an hour but I have to see you ride.

Drop me an email.

[Kwaka-Kid]

whoa, so techhy, the way i get it thru my head sounds as if its the same as simons.

I am going 100kmph in staight line.. then i turn wheel to face left... what does the momentum of the bike do? all that energy/weight pushing forward nowpushs (in my head) against steering head/front wheel and "falls" the bike right... also look at as when u turn the front wheel to face left.. i imagine a circle i am making.. if it was drawn from birds eye view on piece of paper... and centrafugal force makes it want to go outwards.. but the tyres at the bottom of the bike are like stuck to ground(lets say fixed) so the bike then pivots on the 2 tyre patchs, thereby throwing the top of the bike right

i dont know if any of that made sense, i have been sniffing fibreglass resin and gel coat and mekp etc.. well must shoot and keep fibreglassing the rearailpiece to fit better and cover my Tied-on-by-braising-wire solinoid :) hehehe. cyas!

[Lee Rusty]

pushing bars when stationary does not make a difference - but when moving at 30kph tyre only needs to go fractionally off line to alter contact patch and turn in, once turning in it is like a screw.

But bear in mind I was using the example of trying to make an invisable force visable.

It is not what you can see it is what you think.

It is a can of worms I didnt want to open - I tried to ignore the first question, not for any other reason than it is hard to explain in the written form - much easier to explain when a bike is at hand.

It is one of those things you don't really have to understand why it works - just that it works .

[Lee Rusty]

Tetchy - who's bloody tetchy

[bluninja]

Lee, I agree that being able to countersteer is more important than knowing why. It's clear that I create different pictures to define countersteering...and I'm pedantic at times.

I'm now going to leave the can of worms as it is. :D

KK, tsk tsk

 

[Lee Rusty]

and so shall I

[Motu]

I'm not going to get caught up in this one again either - we are dealing with more than one natural force here,which is why we get into arguments,all theories seem to apply.Ain't bikes neat?

Lee,as a sidecar rider - have you ever put an experianced rider on a hack?...the bike leans out,so they keep counter steering right to pick it up,funny to watch,but don't laugh if it's your wife.

Also,have you ridden that abortion of a farm sidecar with the telescopic top links? Riding with the top links loose shows how powerfull these forces are - it's a real knife edge to stay upright - the bike would flip over and dump you on the ground!

We better be carefull here - a certain someone is likely to start a sidecar forum if we don't shut up.

[Lee Rusty]

last rider I saw attempt to ride an outfit withour taking notice of what he was told wound up in a tree about 5 ft off the ground with the outfit wrapped around a letterbox.

talk about larf - it is a real art.

A sidecar forum - not a bad idea but I think we might be the ony ones on it - or are there any other outfit/hack/chair riders out there.

[Kwaka-Kid]

oush, yeah okay :) soz Si. hehe :)

i wont say no more i just emtpied my head the way i see it, but yeah, it works for me and thats all that matters :)

[Hoon]

Yep Counter steering and gyroscopic precession can be very tricky to understand (and even harder to explain). I often use my "simplified" explanation even though it isn't entirely accurate but does make it easier to understand and convinces people enough to believe in it (as opposed to rambling on about angular momentum).

Basically I tell people that you turn the handle bars in the opposite direction i.e. left, which causes the lower part of the bike to shoot left.  As a result the top part of the bike falls to the right, like someone kicking your legs out from under you....kind of what KK was trying to say (for the record I believe countersteering is the product of the above, angular momentum, gyroscopic precession AND the rake angle of the front).

The best way to see how a spinning front wheel affects lean is to grab a kids bicycle, lift the front wheel off the ground and spin it.  Turn the front wheel near the axle and feel how the bike wants to tilt to either side.

A few more interesting things about gyroscopic forces.

- The spinning wheels of your bike keeps you upright, not the speed you are moving.  An example of this is an olympic cyclist riding on stationary rollers staying upright.

- The heavier and faster the wheels are spinning the more stable (or resistant to lean) the bike is.  Thats why its harder to keep the bike balanced at low speeds and also why light weight rims improves high speed turning response.

- The gyroscopic forces of the back wheel does most the work keeping you upright as it is fixed to the frame.  That is why when you lock up the rear the bike falls quickly and loses all balance whereas locking up the front you can still stay upright (if you aren't leaned in a turn that is).

Another interesting observation is that you could mount a spinning wheel to your bike and it would be just as easy to balance at low speed.  But be careful because if you spin the wheel in the opposite direction it would cancel out your bikes gyro effect and at high speed the bike would be just as unstable as if you were stationary!  Boy would that be a nasty trick!

[bluninja]

FYI a chap rode around the Isle of Man Circuit doing a wheel stand all the way. One of the mods to his bike to achieve this was to fit an electric motor to the front wheel to keep it spinning whilst in the air. Woner why he did that?

TTFN

PS I don't really want an answer I'm just increasing my number of posts

 

[Kwaka-Kid]

Originally posted by HO-Hoon

- The gyroscopic forces of the back wheel does most the work keeping you upright as it is fixed to the frame.  That is why when you lock up the rear the bike falls quickly and loses all balance whereas locking up the front you can still stay upright)

hey thanks for all that Hoon, makes sense apart from this bit.. which i spose might and its just my lack of skill.. but i find.. i can lock up rear wheel quite happily and slide to a stop.... however when i lock up front wheel it always wants to "tuck under" like, slam down... know what i mean?even if i thought i was steering straight and was trying to keep it that way. Am i too week to hold the front end straight? or could it be that my wheels aint alligned? or another reason making KK's bikes defy the laws of gyrocollaptic collision? or whatever that was?  (lest just call it simple physics)

[Coldkiwi]

not sure if I follow the ho-hoon logic of front wheel lock ups! There are other forces involved with stability and directional change that I'm pretty sure will take precedence (i.e, no more steering!) when you lock the front than the loss of gyroscopic stability.

as for the Isle of man front wheel rotation; that would be the only way he could steer with the front wheel in the air. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd had a variable speed drive on the electric motor too to help with stability and control.

 

[Hoon]

Yeah my explanation about the front thing wasn't too great....Keith Code does a way better job in one of the Twist books!