Building a bike: legal issues?

[motorbyclist]

If i were to build a bike from the ground up, how hard would it be, how much it would cost, and what hoops would i have to jump through to make it legal?

wheels/brakes/forks/shock/instruments/engine will all be off the shelf parts, but the rest of it, like chassis, cosmetics, muffler and the rest would be well built and all CAD modelled and analysed so i can prove it's strong enough, and will likely have a qualified engineer or three endorse it.

thinking of my 4th year engineering project and making a whole bike would be good. year before last i hear there was a student who made a 500cc V-twin engine, and i hear another is/was working on a fuel injected two-stroke petrol (no oil needed in fuel, decent emmissions and economy). of course being a mechatronics student i'd be doing alot of the electrical stuff too, might go as far to make an electric commuter...


(note i'm not asking how hard it would be to build it, just how hard to get it vinned, rego'd and wof'd)

[Jantar]

I can't answer your question, but what a great engineering project.

I hope you go ahead with it, and let us all know how it turns out. :2thumbsup

[YellowDog]

The road legal standards are pretty tough and to 'reinvent the wheel' will be difficult to get passed without tens of thousands in costs.

Rather than design a chassis, surely you would buy an already approved one?

If you go and see the guys at the AA who approve the imported bikes, before allowing them to be registered, I am sure thay will have some leaflets for you.

Sounds like an excellent project.

[robinm]

Have a look at the attached file 3-1 required docs.. on this page, it may not be as hard as suggested. It would require an engineers report though. Or you could use a steering head off an existing ( registered) bike I suppose.
Anyway, have a look at this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59016&highlight=vin&page=2

[crazybigal]

go see a low volume cert guy.
it wont be as hard as all that, just go through the steps.

[The Pastor]

yeah its not that hard, not the easiest or cheapest, but not impossable.

[motorbyclist]

Rather than design a chassis, surely you would buy an already approved one?


Sounds like an excellent project.

answered your own question:)

if i didn't build one, then i'm just assembling a bike, which in no way would be something i could do for a 4th year project. i actually have to do something.

plus if i build a bike that happens to be commercially viable without simply buying an nc30 and swapping an engine (or supercharging it) would make finding a job easy wouldn't it? spent $20 on gas last week; if i went electric that'd be 20 cents. (and making an electric bike would give me a good grounding to "scale up" to a car;))

[motorbyclist]

Have a look at the attached file 3-1 required docs.. on this page, it may not be as hard as suggested. It would require an engineers report though. Or you could use a steering head off an existing ( registered) bike I suppose.
Anyway, have a look at this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59016&highlight=vin&page=2

yeah i had a look there at recomplying a bike, but thought that building a bike was going to be a different set of hoops, likely flaming ones, for me to jump through.

would this be what they refer to as a "scratch build low volume" certification?


really some info from anyone who's already done what i'm doing and gone through the process would be good, even if they built a car as it'll basically be the same thing minus seatbelts

[AllanB]

There are people out there doing this with choppers and trikes - I've see a guy in Invercargill on TM selling frames etc.

You'll need an engineers report re design etc, plus use a certified welder. It will get a low volume cert once approved.

What style are you proposing - the chopper or bobber route would be the easy way as they are not expected to be cutting edge re handling!

Man it was not that long ago that you could take the old stick welder to a few metres of chain and make your self a set of cool handlebars or sissy-bar in an afternoon...........

[motorbyclist]

easy way? pssh, sport bike all the way! and with fairings seeing as i'll be doing a paper or two on aeorodynamics (thermofluids and aero/hydro dynamics) and will then have an excuse to play in/with the wind tunnel

the university has the means to make it out of anything from steel to aluminium to wood to carbon fibre. and i'm serious about the wood part, the good has similar properties of the better grade aluminium alloys and with a bit of hat and steam can be bent into any shape, even tied in knots! (which is one reason they used it so much in WW2, along with cost and steel supply limits)

only limit is money

[Edbear]

Have a chat to Classic_Z, he's building a turbo Z1300 with ZX12R wheels and forks, Hyabusa brakes and rear shock, custom tank, seat-frame, etc. Using a basic Z1300 frame, but cut and rewelded, quite radically altered, including the steering head angle.

[Ixion]

Can be done. Not easy, but doable in the context. You need to talk BEFORE you start with a LVV certifier. There's a coiuple have posted here from time to time, give Frosty a PM he knows contact details for a dude called Alex.

[lostinflyz]

outside a cert. welder to do up the bike you should be able to get away with most things. may have to get a tech. report from a consulting engineer though.

itd be a shitload of work to do in a year though. We just did go kart designs here (UC) for a course and we didnt have to do any work on chassis engine and we had to have drawings in before 1st term break so everything could be made up. If it was me i would start with stock sections and work on a single component. Sounds like your keen to do the frame. not really mechatronic though.

either way good luck mate. im hoping to try building a toy in a year or two after i graduate and have money. Cause this is never going to be a cheap exercise.

[motorbyclist]

yeah i was thinking of doing the chassis work next year and the electric motor/controllers plus gearbox in 4th year

either that or i look into a fuel injected 2 stroke petrol that won't need oil mixing so will meet emissions standards, and the placement of the injector could help reduce fuel lost out the exhaust port

or a robot; that's pretty mechatronic

[TygerTung]

The road legal standards are pretty tough and to 'reinvent the wheel' will be difficult to get passed without tens of thousands in costs.

Rather than design a chassis, surely you would buy an already approved one?

If you go and see the guys at the AA who approve the imported bikes, before allowing them to be registered, I am sure thay will have some leaflets for you.

Sounds like an excellent project.

John Britten made his own engine, wheels, frame, fairings, pretty much everything and he did it in his own garage, himself, with the help of a few friends.

Frames arn't the most difficult thing to make if you're making them out of steel etc, the information is all out there on geometry etc.

People make frames here in New Zealand all the time in their sheds, I have a bucket racer with a custom frame made in Nelson and it goes very well thank you very much!

I don't think it is too ambitious of a project!

[motorbyclist]

John Britten made his own engine, wheels, frame, fairings, pretty much everything and he did it in his own garage, himself, with the help of a few friends.

Frames arn't the most difficult thing to make if you're making them out of steel etc, the information is all out there on geometry etc.

People make frames here in New Zealand all the time in their sheds, I have a bucket racer with a custom frame made in Nelson and it goes very well thank you very much!

I don't think it is too ambitious of a project!

thanks, and yeah i'm inclined to agree with you

but finding someone with experience getting this sort of thing road legal is proving difficult... well i haven't really done much looking sorta hoping someone will see this thread before i start the project

[CookMySock]

http://www.hotrod.org.nz/ talk to someone from here. I think you would benefit from a document called "the hobby car manual". I think thats what its called.

DB

[Coyote]

I think we could be friends :D

I'm keen on making a bike myself, only I don't have any mechanical skill. Like to think I can draw nice looking bikes though, it's all I did in graphics class last year.

What course are you doing? What prerequisites do you need for it? Since I was complacent last year (like spending all my time drawing bikes) I didn't achieve uni entrance. I like the sound of making fuel injected 2 strokes.

I was simply thinking of getting a MIG welder at home and making up a classy looking bucket first of all, then build up a bigger machine when I become more serious. The other day I drew up what I think is a unique orientation for a rear shock that's really only different for the sake of being different but I'd like to give it a shot.

[motorbyclist]

I think we could be friends :D

I'm keen on making a bike myself, only I don't have any mechanical skill. Like to think I can draw nice looking bikes though, it's all I did in graphics class last year.

What course are you doing? What prerequisites do you need for it? Since I was complacent last year (like spending all my time drawing bikes) I didn't achieve uni entrance. I like the sound of making fuel injected 2 strokes.

I was simply thinking of getting a MIG welder at home and making up a classy looking bucket first of all, then build up a bigger machine when I become more serious. The other day I drew up what I think is a unique orientation for a rear shock that's really only different for the sake of being different but I'd like to give it a shot.

i'm doing a degree in engineering at the university of auckland, which basically requires a merit or better average in NCEA 7th form calculus and physics, or a B average in a science degree (which from 2009 onwards will finally require you to have some prior knowledge in you field of study) from which you may be allowed to swap over into engineering. myself i only just scraped into engineering after cruising through highschool and wagging half of 7th form. after the general engineering first year my marks were good enough to get into mechatronics, which is a combo of mechanical and electrical engineering with a bit of extra computer systems/software engineering thrown in. (very glad i didn't sigh up for the uni formula SAE team; as fun as designing a racecar sounds and as good as it may look on a CV, i've got enough to do as it is!)

we have to do/learn all the welding/workshop stuff as part of the degree on top of all the papers we're required to do, along with 800 hours paid employment comprised of 400 hours sub-professional (ie office work) and 400 hours doing as you're told (ie operator/technician/fabricator). then there's 4th year research project and all the projects as part of your courses (right now i should be designing the chassis for a robot my group intends to build)

so, contrary to what many people who don't know any better believe, we aren't entirely hopeless when we leave uni and actually have a fair bit of "real world" experience plus the knowledge that some take decades to aquire - bonus is that there seems to constantly be different companies trying to employ us before we've even graduated; so finding a job in NZ (or overseas) really doesn't seem to be an issue.

of course making a fuel injected two stroke that works, and works well, actually requires alot of maths/modelling etc etc, or atleast a fair bit of time/skill. to make a chassis again can simply be a task of welding metal together and hoping it holds - which will be nigh on impossible to get road legal - or my planned approach of modelling and anaylising it so i know that it will be strong, perform well, not break in half after a year or so from fatigue, and thus be road legal-able.

the stuff i've learnt since starting at uni is simply amazing, and i'm ever more painfully aware of how much i'm yet to learn, and even the stuff i won't get to learn (civil, chemical/materials, and biomedical do all sorts of things i'll never encounter). it takes a hideous amount of time and effort (and money), but it challenging, interesting and the student lifestyle is fun - and unlike many arts/philosophy students i know, i can actually directly use this degree to start a well paid career that can take me anywhere in the world;)


if taking the academic path doesn't sound like you, you could consider an apprenticeship: earn as you learn, will be a master of building stuff, but afaik won't be set up very well for professional design work.

[Coyote]

etc.
I didn't pass level 2 maths due to a few reasons so I never got to do Calculus which has closed a lot of doors for me. Not only can't I do engineering, I can't do Physics at uni either which was a huge blow. Partly why I gave up the next year (still managed to pass Level 3 Physics though, achieved all my papers).

I am into learning more, I'm not your typical metalwork slacker as everyone now thinks I am since I'm at Weltec doing car painting (which is an awesome course, see attached photo).

Think I'll just aim at welding stuff together at home.

[surfer]

It's not that scary putting together a bike. As others have said talk first to get the right info; Ixion metioned Frosty has Alex Gee's contact details. Google the LVVTA website for info; they also have a list of certifiers as well. Talk to Classic_Zed as well. Make sure you can get a welding certificate for the frame.

Then work out what you would like to do and what you can actually do given your skill set, experience, and finances. The financial aspect of it all is the one that you really need to nail as costs can start to get away from you. So make a realistic budget which means understanding component part costs.

I got my bike through the LVVTA process ok. Others on here make their bikes too.

Good luck to you, it sounds like an awesome project.

[motorbyclist]

I didn't pass level 2 maths due to a few reasons so I never got to do Calculus which has closed a lot of doors for me. Not only can't I do engineering, I can't do Physics at uni either which was a huge blow. Partly why I gave up the next year (still managed to pass Level 3 Physics though, achieved all my papers).


heheh, yeah myself i was one merit short on the calculus side and barely met the physics requirements due to my not deciding what to do until the last third of 7th form. luckily for me i did well in all other subjects and so they made me do this 2 week maths course to bring me up to speed. turns out the 550 student intake limit doesn't actually limit anyone; they struggle to "lower the bar" enough to admit students like me to reach ~500 students, then take in the science kids. just so happens that once at uni i thrived - it's a much better learning format/environment than highschool - and got into mechatronics (which actually has an intake limit, and alot of people didn't get in). i still have trouble with the maths after slacking off at highschool, but everyone has trouble with the maths bar the maths whizzes who then struggle with everything else


It's not that scary putting together a bike. As others have said talk first to get the right info; Ixion metioned Frosty has Alex Gee's contact details. Google the LVVTA website for info; they also have a list of certifiers as well. Talk to Classic_Zed as well. Make sure you can get a welding certificate for the frame.

Then work out what you would like to do and what you can actually do given your skill set, experience, and finances. The financial aspect of it all is the one that you really need to nail as costs can start to get away from you. So make a realistic budget which means understanding component part costs.

I got my bike through the LVVTA process ok. Others on here make their bikes too.

Good luck to you, it sounds like an awesome project.

thanks - yeah i'm trying to get the all right info before i start to save alot of future headaches, will google lvvta later tonight

[Squiggles]

or a B average in a science degree (which from 2009 onwards will finally require you to have some prior knowledge in you field of study) from which you may be allowed to swap over into engineering.

Mint, might swap over if lightning strikes and i want to do engineering, up ta stage 3 maths with Stage 2 chem & phys :rolleyes:

Ill donate a KLR frame for you to f with :lol:

[motorbyclist]

right, so reading up on low volume vehicle certification, i now know alot of bikes on the road are actually in need of lvv cert after all the aftermarket fairings, subframe swaps, wheel/suspension swaps and mufflers "noticably louder than the what the vehicle would have sounded like originally" - or is all that just for cars?


now i was hoping to just have a page with "in order to build from scratch you have to jump through these hoops backwards, and those hoops while signing a cheque"

as far as i can discern, this really is a case of just finding the guys qualified to certify what i need certified

then, if what i want to do isn't covered by their standards, the certifier goes and talks to lvvta about it....

i'd prefer it if there was a pdf written in plain english (rather than lawyer's jargon) with set standards and and explanation of the process for a scratch build etc etc, but i suppose i've gotten enough info from the site and if the certifiers are reasonable guys i won't have any problems. of course the last thing i want is another set of laws made by idiots down in wellington who have no idea what they're on about.

and lucky for me, of the two certifiers in auckland qualified to do bike scratch builds, one is within 10 minutes of my place :)



Ill donate a KLR frame for you to f with :lol:

thanks for the offer but i doubt they'd certify a pile of rust:laugh:

[barty5]

Cant be that hard check out this mini chopper spotted in auckland regod as a 2005 and if your wondering the head light is held on by cable ties. what cracked me up was the large lock round the front wheel like your going to steal that even crims have standards. looks like frame was an old RM now with a 110cc throwin at it.

[surfer]

as far as i can discern, this really is a case of just finding the guys qualified to certify what i need certified

then, if what i want to do isn't covered by their standards, the certifier goes and talks to lvvta about it....:

Yep, that is about the gist of it. Speak with a certifier first before you start, it will save you a lot of tme and grief.

[Coyote]

heheh, yeah myself i was one merit short on the calculus side and barely met the physics requirements due to my not deciding what to do until the last third of 7th form. luckily for me i did well in all other subjects and so they made me do this 2 week maths course to bring me up to speed. turns out the 550 student intake limit doesn't actually limit anyone; they struggle to "lower the bar" enough to admit students like me to reach ~500 students, then take in the science kids. just so happens that once at uni i thrived - it's a much better learning format/environment than highschool - and got into mechatronics (which actually has an intake limit, and alot of people didn't get in). i still have trouble with the maths after slacking off at highschool, but everyone has trouble with the maths bar the maths whizzes who then struggle with everything else

Well that's given me a glimmer of hope. Since I did well in physics (it's amazing what you can do when you actually study) there might be a course I could do to then get into engineering.

Then I'll be able to make a 2 Litre V4 2 stroke made from 4 CR/KX500 cyilnders :D

[motorbyclist]

Cant be that hard check out this mini chopper spotted in auckland regod as a 2005 and if your wondering the head light is held on by cable ties. what cracked me up was the large lock round the front wheel like your going to steal that even crims have standards. looks like frame was an old RM now with a 110cc throwin at it.

LOL

yeah not really what i'm doing, as i'll be building my own chassis rather than getting some bike parts and cable-ties and assembling.


Yep, that is about the gist of it. Speak with a certifier first before you start, it will save you a lot of tme and grief.

sweet as, will do after exams :D

cheers

[barty5]

wasnt expecting that your build quality would be that poor it was just an example of how bad they can get, And they they complain about unsafe vehicles on our roads when they let out.

[Nade]

Ive had a bit to do with getting vehicals certified for the road over the years. Ive mainly builts truck chassis and hot rod chassis but Im assuming the process would be similar.
Heres what I did.....Discuss your ideas with an engineer who specialises in the area your going to be working in...in this case...low volume.
Some of them are able to take your design and work with it on their computer and show stress points and possible changes for strength etc. This can take alot of time and you have to have a pretty good idea of what you want from the final finished product. BUT they can help and in the end its worth it because thier final word is considered to be the shiznit.
The building is the easy part.....as once you have the basic certified design any certified welder can make it up (or do some courses and get your 4711 welding cert in a couple of positions and do it yourself, costs about $180 per position and is valid for 1 year...then do it again and its valid for 2years)....then its off for vinning with the required associated road worthy cert and all is good.
I have built, chopped and redesigned chassis for cars and trucks capable of carrying upto 80 ton and never had a problem so long as you involve the engineer from the start. There are some good ones and some real shits to....so be aware. So long as you follow the laws laid down and the advice of the engineer I can't see you having any trouble. :rockon:

[CookMySock]

what if the engineering was done online collectively, in the wiki perhaps, and the design licensed under the GPL. Then anyone could modify and build it.

DB

[motorbyclist]

what if i'm the engineer? heres hoping it'll save some money if it's already 100% sweet when i show the plans to them :)

cheers nade, that is exactly the information i'm looking for (and what i was hoping to hear)


roughly how much does the lvvta certification and vinning process cost in monetary terms? (so just the legal crap, excluding the engineers)

[Nade]

roughly how much does the lvvta certification and vinning process cost in monetary terms? (so just the legal crap, excluding the engineers)

Im not sure of the cost.....of the cars I have done its depended on the certifier as to the cost...and anything they pick up on that has to be changed is charged for again on an individual basis...as in for each thing they pick up on thats not correct then they charge $15 to reinspect each thing again...things like bolts not protruding throug the nut enough...minimum 3 threads...not using nyloc's....or correct strength bolts...8.8's...or 10.2's etc. so if you have 10 things that need reinspecting then you up for another $150 to get it reinspected....ontop of the initial cost.:Pokey:

[motorbyclist]

sweet, thanks

[surfer]

roughly how much does the lvvta certification and vinning process cost in monetary terms? (so just the legal crap, excluding the engineers)

Anywhere between $200 to $400 for LVVTA process, and depends whether you get someone to do both parts (1 and 2) or if they sub contract out to someone else if they are onbly able to do part 1. There should be no engineer cost unless you do something that is outrageous and requires special testing equipment is needed to calibrate stresses etc. You are best talking to an LVVTA certifier to find out at the outset and also to involve them in the process as you build as this will make their job easier and also make it cheaper for you with less headaches.

Vinning fees are normal, same as for any bike. Sorry can't remember how much this is now as been a while since I've done this. Wof is normal wof fee.

[surfer]

Follow this link, it might help you with sorting out costs and what is involved. I paid people to do welding so your costs should be minimal in comparison.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1109994#post1109994

[motorbyclist]

thanks! :)

[geoffm]

Things must have eased up since I wuz a student (the first time). They wouldn't let us do something like that - we wanted to make a Hossack type front end and frame. Liability issues... might pay to run it by the uni first.

Anyway, you be wanting to do some reading young Padwan.
Tony Foale - http://www.tonyfoale.com/. Have a look at his chassis design software and articles while you are there.
and get his chassis book. The old one with Vic Willoby has aged well and still worth a read. The new one is more technical and came with a disk of software. No you can't borrow my copy...
John Robinson's book is worth getting out of the library. Foales books are better if you are paying money.
Michael Moore's site: http://www.eurospares.com/frame.htm
Join the MC-chassis mailing list.Some smart people on there (including Mr Foale himself and Mr Moore).
Chopper frames but still: http://smartflix.com/store/video/1942/Building-A-Chopper-Chassis
Building a frame jig: http://www.monsterguide.net/how-to-build-a-motorcycle-jig.shtml
John Bradley - the racing motorcycle - a constructor's guide. http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Motorcycle-Technical-Guide-Constructors/dp/0951292927 (You will need both volumes)
Cosso - Motorcycle Dynamics - http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=rJTQxITnkbgC&dq=motorcycle+dynamics&pg=PP1&ots=DXaWIhhNwE&sig=ZK2UT_2FARrI62JxTI2_uXKOoWc&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=motorcycle+dynamics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR9,M1
and
http://www.dinamoto.it/
otherwise you won't be able to get the weight distribution right

You will need the spring rates and damping curves for the suspension if you are going to design the linkages right.

This looked cool when I was looking around in the past:http://www.carsim.com/products/bikesim/

Should keep you off the streets for a bit.
Geoff

[motorbyclist]

cheers!

if the uni won't let me do it i'll do it anyway as a personal project. (the thought of them not approving did cross my mind)