Compound corners

[xwhatsit]

I'm slowly learning how to punt the RS through corners at a reasonable chop. With some advice from some smart people here, I fixed the problem I had about `cutting' corners -- delay the apex, and wind on as much throttle as the wee bike will give when one reaches said apex.

I need to solve my next issue now. Compound corners. It's not so bad when they're tight; I treat them like two corners one after another. What is slightly more difficult is the less acute compound corners. I tend to cut the `middle section' and find myself on the wrong side of the road again.

It's not that the bike doesn't like to change lines mid-corner, which I assume is what I need to do -- turn in sharp, then back off, then tighten up again. It just doesn't seem to want to `sit up', possibly a result of the low clip-ons making it a trivial matter to lay the bike over and turn in, but a concious effort to pick it back up again. Do I need to delay my apex even further? Treat it as a series of two sharp kinks? Do the whole thing faster with more throttle?

Thanks for advice for this beginner.

[skidMark]

light tap on front breaks will make it stand up real quick...LIGHT tap.:pinch:

That and countersteering is your friend. if you want to stand it up again through a left hander push the right bar away from you...(turning the wheel left)

Same applies tipping it over...for a left hander push the left handlebar away from you (pointing the wheel to the right)....will lean it over quick.

[xwhatsit]

I'm well aware of counter-steering, one doesn't usually scrape pegs by just flicking around with knees, light bike or not.

It'll stand up if I tell it to, but on the whole cornering with the RS is a elegant dance, not a bar-wrestling big-bike experience. It doesn't feel very smooth to do that and it doesn't feel like good cornering practice.

[skidMark]

I'm well aware of counter-steering, one doesn't usually scrape pegs by just flicking around with knees, light bike or not.

It'll stand up if I tell it to, but on the whole cornering with the RS is a elegant dance, not a bar-wrestling big-bike experience. It doesn't feel very smooth to do that and it doesn't feel like good cornering practice.


Ok fine, take from it what you wish then.

Why do i bother.

As you were...

Skid.

[Nagash]

Ok fine, take from it what you wish then.

Why do i bother.

As you were...

Skid.

Mate,

Your advice wasn't exactly what he was looking for, don't take offence to it. There's more then one way to skin a cat.. obviously your way he's tried and it ain't working.


Unfortuantely I can't give you much advice on the whole thing, riding a cruiser means I have to take them pretty slow so the whole thing doesn't scrape off down the road so they're pretty easy for me..

[skidMark]

Mate,

Your advice wasn't exactly what he was looking for, don't take offence to it. There's more then one way to skin a cat.. obviously your way he's tried and it ain't working.


Unfortuantely I can't give you much advice on the whole thing, riding a cruiser means I have to take them pretty slow so the whole thing doesn't scrape off down the road so they're pretty easy for me..

Yeah but he says it doesnt feel like good practise, well neither it standing you bike up and changing line mid corner either.

Anyways i do not want this to become another rip into skidmark thread.

I will leave this for him to get the advice he is after.

Do not reply to this anybody.

Skid.

[jrandom]

Compound corners. It's not so bad when they're tight; I treat them like two corners one after another. What is slightly more difficult is the less acute compound corners. I tend to cut the `middle section' and find myself on the wrong side of the road again.

Yeah, I have that problem.

I find that the solution is to throttle out of the first bend harder, and just abandon the idea of turning the whole thing into one fluid progression.

So, tip in, throttle out with gay abandon (going for the little step-out and black stripe on the road if there's someone following, of course) roll off, tip in, throttle out again.

I just don't think that the roads are wide enough to allow one to stay in a safe lane position and effectively single-apex long changing-radius bends.

[Katman]

Anyways i do not want this to become another rip into skidmark thread.



Post deleted.

[kiwifruit]

Slow down :)

[jrandom]

Slow down

kiwifruit's so full of it, his eyes are brown.

[xwhatsit]

Ok fine, take from it what you wish then.

Why do i bother.

As you were...

Skid.
Rofl, you're worse than my girlfriend lol. I didn't mean offence, just saying it doesn't seem to be as simple as just counter-steering around my cornering problems.

Yeah, I have that problem.

I find that the solution is to throttle out of the first bend harder, and just abandon the idea of turning the whole thing into one fluid progression.

So, tip in, throttle out with gay abandon (going for the little step-out and black stripe on the road if there's someone following, of course) roll off, tip in, throttle out again.

I just don't think that the roads are wide enough to allow one to stay in a safe lane position and effectively single-apex long changing-radius bends.
I'll give that a whirl. The bike stands up and becomes quite controllable when given a decent boot -- it's neutral/barely accelerating throttle and throttle off that the thing just wants to keep turning sharply. Typically I think I'm looking ahead to the next corner bit so I'm not powering out enough of the first bit.

I don't really want to turn it into one long single-apex, but what I'd like to do is make it a much smoother progression, instead of either running across the other side of the road or making a very awkward hash of standing it up and slowing down mid-corner.

[skidMark]

Rofl, you're worse than my girlfriend lol. I didn't mean offence, just saying it doesn't seem to be as simple as just counter-steering around my cornering problems.

I'll give that a whirl. The bike stands up and becomes quite controllable when given a decent boot -- it's neutral/barely accelerating throttle and throttle off that the thing just wants to keep turning sharply. Typically I think I'm looking ahead to the next corner bit so I'm not powering out enough of the first bit.

I don't really want to turn it into one long single-apex, but what I'd like to do is make it a much smoother progression, instead of either running across the other side of the road or making a very awkward hash of standing it up and slowing down mid-corner.


You are holding revs through the corner right? not backing off then just cracking it open on exit?

[xwhatsit]

You are holding revs through the corner right? not backing off then just cracking it open on exit?
I'm taking my usual strategy (that keeps the swingarm straight and the forks not flexing) of going in slight throttle but with a bit of trail braking. Seems to work beautifully on constant-radius corners.

[jrandom]

... making a very awkward hash of standing it up and slowing down mid-corner.

I'm not sure I follow the necessity of standing the bike up to slow it down. Has your bike been afflicted with some form of Dark Magicks, so that it may not reduce in velocity once it deviates from the vertical?

[xwhatsit]

I'm not sure I follow the necessity of standing the bike up to slow it down. Has your bike been afflicted with some form of Dark Magicks, so that it may not reduce in velocity once it deviates from the vertical?
It's late at night and I'm in `walking mode' not `two wheel mode', but I think it tends to want to tighten up if I slow down while leaned over.

[quickbuck]

Mmmm,
Keep looking at the exit (or vanishing point) with your eyes.
Your bike will then follow.

If anything, delay your Turn-in.

[erik]

If you're going wide on the exit, then I'd suggest that yes, you should delay the apex further. Stay wide around the corner to give you the best view around the bend (which will also keep your speed down because it's not the fastest line) and then turn in when you can see the exit.

Have you set up your suspension? The bike wanting to tighten in a corner when slowing down/braking makes me think it might have too little trail? Is it quite twitchy? You could try increasing the preload on the front or slipping the forks down through the tripple clamps to raise the front end and reduce the steering head angle/increase the trail, I think that ought to make it more stable and stop it from wanting to tighten in the curve.

[old git]

Hi,
Sorry to say this, but it is a 1983 bike......nearly as old as mine!!, and the handling won't be great............so just go and experiment on the same corner a few dozen times changing one thing at a time.... you will learn something that way, then try elsewhere.............Just don't overcook it and do any damage.

[Padmei]

have you done a track day where you can practise without the inevitable consequences of a car on the road when you cross the line? May be the go?

[CookMySock]

it sounded to me like you were squaring your corners off and tensing up and holding your breath. Relax and breathe and steer with the bars and feel the flow.

disclaimer: noob !

DB

[Biggles2000]

Keep in mind bikes are best for slow in fast out cornering.
Bikes stand up and go straight ahead under brakes and power.
The easiest time to throw a bike down and hold it there is when the power is neutral, ie neither de or accelerating. Cars dont have this problem.
If you have too much power on when you have to take another line (for any reason like mid corner) your bike will run wide.
What I do is..... Set the corner up in your mind. Brake into the corner but as I enter and get close to the apex of the corner I change progressivley from brakes to zero power, so that the bike is almost rolling around the slowest part of the corner when it has the greatest lean angle on. As I see the exit I apply power to stand the bike back up and accelerate out of the corner. If I have to change lines mid corner I close up the throttle a bit which allows me to drop the bike down and cut in a bit or open up to stand the bike up and run wide.
Can I suggest you go on an advanced riding skills course..... you will learn heaps and have a ball doing so. Look in the yellow pages under driving schools.

[dipshit]

Mmmm,
Keep looking at the exit (or vanishing point) with your eyes.
Your bike will then follow.

If anything, delay your Turn-in.

Some corners you can't see all of the corner or the exit though. Like you say - look at the 'vanishing point', and treat the corner like it is going to go on for ever.

Relax. Look where you want to go. Yse your *upper body* to make fine adjustments to your line during the corner, by leaning in or back to the middle of your bike.

[pritch]

I think it tends to want to tighten up if I slow down while leaned over.

That's normal. And it should tend to run wide under power too, unless you've got enough power to spin the rear wheel to tighten the line again.

I assume you are prepared to take a less than optimum line through the first part of a compound corner or series of bends if that means you will be better placed for the final part? It's normally the exit to the final part that needs to be right.

[Ixion]

Keep in mind bikes are best for slow in fast out cornering.
Bikes stand up and go straight ahead under brakes and power.
..

Not necessarily. The ffwabbitt f'instance , I brake hard right into the corner, which helps it to turn in. Chookchasers are a bit different


Three are some multi corners IMHO that you can't get all of it perfect. You have to sacrifice one corner for the sake of the other(s).

The thing is , if possible, to consider the series as a whole, not take each corner one at a time. So, look for the exit point of the final corner. Just be VERY careful doing this on a corner with a dog leg in it . DAMHIK.

[xwhatsit]

That's normal. And it should tend to run wide under power too, unless you've got enough power to spin the rear wheel to tighten the line again.

I assume you are prepared to take a less than optimum line through the first part of a compound corner or series of bends if that means you will be better placed for the final part? It's normally the exit to the final part that needs to be right.
Maybe that's it -- go wide into the first bit, square it off then throttle on out and through the last bit.

I'm unwilling to use brakes and things like that. Shouldn't really need to do that. We're talking about a 26hp bike here, for one it doesn't gain enough speed in the chutes, and even if it did I'd be wanting to conserve as much of that speed as possible. Aside from trailing a smidgen of rear brake in corner entry (not to scrub off speed), I never touch the brakes, and just like wrestling the bike around with `reverse' counter-steering it seems an inelegant way to solve the problem.

I'm also unwilling to blame the bike or suspension -- we've all seen it on rides, the old hairy bastard with some ancient rusty oil-dropper is the one that makes the rest of us look like we'd only just done our Basic Handling. Motorcycling is mostly about technique, not equipment.

I think it's mostly just about line. Fat chance of learning that from following GiJoe1313 on his 919 now :laugh:

[Monsterbishi]

Just remember this one key thing - your footpegs don't flip up ;-)

I had a '83 CB250RS Many years ago, I lost track of how many times the pegs took a beating on the asphalt, got stolen before it could deal me payback (I'll own another one day)

[xwhatsit]

Just remember this one key thing - your footpegs don't flip up ;-)

I had a '83 CB250RS Many years ago, I lost track of how many times the pegs took a beating on the asphalt, got stolen before it could deal me payback (I'll own another one day)
Yes they do heh -- if they didn't flip up at least on the RHS, you couldn't kickstart it!

My pegs get a reasonable amount of `road wear' on them too, but that's mostly due to the lowered front end (I like twitchy) and damper-less rear suspension.

[mowgli]

It's late at night and I'm in `walking mode' not `two wheel mode', but I think it tends to want to tighten up if I slow down while leaned over.
Friction causes your bike to slow down (and possibly tip in) through corners unless you add throttle.

Your problem sounds a bit like when I got all keen about counter-steering and used it without regard to throttle in and out of corners. Felt awkward and often ended up missing my line out. I was coached to do my slowing before entry and then accelerate (gradually at first) though the entire corner not just the exit. Just prior to the apex (in anticipation of power on though the apex) wind on more throttle to exit and to stand the bike up. I now concentrate more on throttle through corners and just let the CS thing happen as required. Most of the time it doesn't feel like I'm CSing out at all.

Disclaimer: I'm still very much a noob.

[trustme]

Ixon & some of the others are on to it. Not all parts of the corner or corners can be taken at full speed [on the road anyway] . Sometimes you have to go in slow & on the wrong line to set your self up for a good exit from the final part of the bend. Go in too quick & you end up losing speed all thru & exit on a wrong line & you feel like a nana.
Relax, stop trying to use the road like a race track & aim for a consistent quick pace. Minimise hard braking & acceleration which you are already doing
Invariably when really pushing you hit the picks too hard & nana the corner or arrive too fast scrub off speed & exit at nana pace gas it up & arrive too quick at the next corner & repeat the process ,there is heaps of adrenaline rush but no flow to the ride ,the hairy old bastards on oil droppers ride at their pace for hr after hr all day without raising a sweat.
Sometimes less is more. Your bike has no power no brakes & no frame.[ bit like my scrambler ] Try to minimise braking which you are all ready doing,& carry momentum throughout the corner to give as much exit speed as possible.

I'm not bagging your bike , I watched how you went on the noobs Kawhia ride. You & your bike go bloody well on tarseal & gravel . Keep up the good work The guy to watch that day was Motu, you might think he was a hairy old B but I couldn't possibly comment, the riding was neat clean economical & quick, his river crossing put the rest of us to shame

Watch & follow the old farts , some of them may not do super speeds but they are bloody quick which in imho is where you want to be