Go Labour!!!

[Dafe]

NOT!!!!!!!

Helen Clark has announced that the petition for removal of GST on foods will not be considered by the labour government, instead stating that the government would address hardship through there working for families scheme.

Also, Helen Clark has announced that it will not block the sale of Wellington's Vector energy to a Hong Kong company. Wellington should be bracing for rapidly increasing electricity prices in the near future.

Another big thank you to Labour......... and to anybody who has supported Labour over the past 9 years. Another company brought out by overseas investors.

Now, the buy back of railways at a ridiculous cost and at a time where many tax payers require some relief from rising costs of living - Nope, never had it from labour and never will. Some will blame National for selling the railways but don't forget who made railways an SOE. Both parties to blame here.

Labour has pretty much screwed this country. They drain the workers money in high taxes and low income payments, they provide pathetic health amenities and very poor support to businesses. They do however take excellent care of refugees, solo mothers on the DPB and the unemployed.

At a time where New Zealand is forking out money for nothing, under the kyoto protocol and the government is imposing carbon taxes upon the already heavily taxed public, the government has just gone out and purchased 50 BMW's. NZ still uses less pollution in one year than China does in one day. Still we pay a fortune to the Kyoto prtotocol for our emission pollution and still China tells Kyoto and all other pollution programmes to piss off. No fee incurred. So while China does the real damage, we pay taxes to cover insignificant damage. Good on ya Labour!!!

[smokeyging]

well, i did'nt vote for the pricks
and as thick as they are, i'll bet its not there fault why everyones leaving the country too....

[bane]

well, if you want a collalition that would do the opposite, good luck with the NZ First/Green/Maori Party government....

National would do exactly the same as Labour has done here.

[Usarka]

Brian gaynor (heh) summed it up nicely this morning - decisions on what are "strategic assets" such as wellington power or Auckland airport are being made on a purely political basis rather than what's in the best long term interestest of the country.

I wonder if there's any correlation between our bad poverty rating and the incentives to get benefits in this country.......

[PrincessBandit]

No wonder the poll I saw the other day asking people regarding their interest in fleeing to West Island had the vast majority saying they were seriously considering it. If we're not careful, Australia might decide to close their borders to us to stop an incoming tidal wave of Kiwis exponentially exploding!!! :devil2:
(Wow, what alliteration so early in the morning)

[MisterD]

National would do exactly the same as Labour has done here.

There's nothing wrong with the sale of the network, which has in fact previously been owned by a Canadian and then US based company...electricity supply is very highly regulated for both price and quality of service. The crowd that have bought it currently (no pun intended) run electricity supply networks in Melbourne and SA, so they do know what they are doing.

The inconsistency is with Liarbour playing politics. National, rightly would have allowed the airport deal...and Labour deserve to be shown up for the petty, shortsighted control freaks that they are.

[Mully]

If we're not careful, Australia might decide to close their borders to us to stop an incoming tidal wave of Kiwis exponentially exploding!!

Thankfully not. They are really keen to get Kiwis in there as globally, Kiwis are rated as really good workers.

Well, until the current crop of bludgers stuffs it up for us.

[Clockwork]

So you think National would remove GST from food? Surely if your concerned for the plight of the poor you should target assistance rather than provide it everyone and if you want people off the dole you would provide tax incentives for them to work such as "Working For Families" rather than accross the board tax cuts.

You would prefer that Wellington's electricity network was back in NZ ownership? Me too, but I know National/Act wouldn't care and anyway I doubt they can stop the sale to a Chinese company since signing the free trade agreement with China.

You political opinions don't seem very consistent other than "whatever Labour does, it must be wrong!!"

[Mully]

So you think National would remove GST from food? Surely if your concerned for the plight of the poor you should target assistance rather than provide it everyone and if you want people off the dole you would provide tax incentives for them to work such as "Working For Families" rather than accross the board tax cuts.


National have already said that removing GST from food isn't an option. My thoughts are that removing it on vegetables, etc is a better idea than a blanket removal anyway, but AU have made that complicated (raw chicken is exempt, cooked chickens are taxable), so I think NZ is reluctant to follow.

Working for familes only encourages people to have more children than they can afford. People I know with two kids (because they decided that's all they can afford) get nothing from the Government, and they are the ones getting squeezed by prices (petrol, mortgage, etc). This is why the workers (who pay all the tax, not the bludgers) are all fucking off overseas at a rate of knots. Tax cuts are the only thing which will keep the people PAYING for working for families here.

Raising wages (for everyone) is the only way NZ will dig itself out of the hole we are in.

[Clockwork]

It seems to me that if a Nation isn't to die within a generation it would be to societies benefit to assist couples to have children. As to the details of "Working For Familes" I must admit that as I will never benefit from it I really havn't looked into how it's divvied up. I do know that my taxes didn't go up when it was introduced and that its better to encourage the low paid to work rather than sit on the dole.

I don't have a problem with assisting the next generation, I expect as I get older I will need their assistance in return. And I know the previous generation mostly paid for my education and health care.

If we're not paid enough in NZ, I suspect that started around the time of the Employment Contacts act...... who was responsible for that?

Of course these days if we want to be paid more our employers just export our jobs. Unfortunately they can't do that with workers in our infrastucture industries so they just sell-off the infrastructure and export the profits instead.

[Devil]

It doesn't make sense to remove the GST on anything. Unfortunately I agree with Uncle Helen, but our simple to administer GST scheme is a good thing and it shouldn't be fux0red with.

Perhaps removing some of the taxes from petrol would kill two birds with one stone. Bring gas prices down, and also have an effect on food prices too.

[Mully]

It seems to me that if a Nation isn't to die within a generation it would be to societies benefit to assist couples to have children.
*snip*


OT, but agreed. But WFF doesn't assist middle-income NZ couples who make good choices about how many children they should have, based on what they can afford. Assistance to them is certainly a good thing (paid parental leave springs to mind). Income splitting is also worth investigation IMO

What is does do is make low-income earners not think about whether or not to breed, but just to pop out sprogs with impunity as they know the Govt will keep stumping up the cash to support them. Which drives the mindset of "The Government will pay" which means that we have fewer people to prop up the gravy train of beneficiaries (especially when a Doctor can go overseas, get paid twice as much and have half the stress levels of working here, that's tax revenue & a skillset NZ has missed out on).

Then you get into the poverty cycle. Low education = low paying jobs, more children = overcrowding, disease, child abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse

Support systems which were meant to be a safety net have been used as a way of life for too long.

[MisterD]

OT, but agreed. But WFF doesn't assist middle-income NZ couples who make good choices about how many children they should have, based on what they can afford. Assistance to them is certainly a good thing (paid parental leave springs to mind). Income splitting is also worth investigation IMO

What is does do is make low-income earners not think about whether or not to breed, but just to pop out sprogs with impunity as they know the Govt will keep stumping up the cash to support them. Which drives the mindset of "The Government will pay" which means that we have fewer people to prop up the gravy train of beneficiaries (especially when a Doctor can go overseas, get paid twice as much and have half the stress levels of working here, that's tax revenue & a skillset NZ has missed out on).

Then you get into the poverty cycle. Low education = low paying jobs, more children = overcrowding, disease, child abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse

Support systems which were meant to be a safety net have been used as a way of life for too long.

To paraphrase for the hard of thinking (aka Labour voters):

Tax payers breed tax payers, beneficiaries breed beneficiaries.

[firefighter]

National have already said that removing GST from food isn't an option. My thoughts are that removing it on vegetables, etc is a better idea than a blanket removal anyway, but AU have made that complicated (raw chicken is exempt, cooked chickens are taxable), so I think NZ is reluctant to follow.

Working for familes only encourages people to have more children than they can afford. People I know with two kids (because they decided that's all they can afford) get nothing from the Government, and they are the ones getting squeezed by prices (petrol, mortgage, etc). This is why the workers (who pay all the tax, not the bludgers) are all fucking off overseas at a rate of knots. Tax cuts are the only thing which will keep the people PAYING for working for families here.

Raising wages (for everyone) is the only way NZ will dig itself out of the hole we are in.

I think you'll find that was a convenient excuse.......hell all they need to do is copy australias list, and adjust anything which wouldn't suit here, it's not really all that complicated.......processed or un-natural gets taxed, cooked/processed is, and it's a great incentive for healthier eating, the reason that hasn't made a diff in auz is because they never taxed the healthy stuff in the first place.

[firefighter]

To paraphrase for the hard of thinking (aka Labour voters):

Tax payers breed tax payers, beneficiaries breed beneficiaries.

100% correct +1

[Clockwork]

To paraphrase for the hard of thinking (aka Labour voters):

Tax payers breed tax payers, beneficiaries breed beneficiaries.

One would need to be a working tax payer to qualify for WFF would one not?

Who's doing the thinking for you?

[ManDownUnder]

YAY.

Anything that puts my tax into non contributing people's hands, makes sure that infrastructure built up with public funds is sold, and maxmises the amount of tax I pay while encouraging the use of private health, security and education gets my vote...


NOT

[MisterD]

One would need to be a working tax payer to qualify for WFF would one not?

Who's doing the thinking for you?

Ok, ya got me, pedant. Care to address the real issue - dependency breeding dependency? The sheer arrogance of Cullen and Clarke in believing they know how best to spend my money for me makes me sick...and there's obviously nothing that scares them more than the thought of independence being encouraged in the voting populace...

[Lias]

One would need to be a working tax payer to qualify for WFF would one not?


No, you dont. I know someone on a benefit who gets several hundred a week from WFF.

According to the WFF website, the $$$ you get is in 4 parts, only one of which is "work" tested.

[Clockwork]

Ok, ya got me, pedant. Care to address the real issue - dependency breeding dependency? The sheer arrogance of Cullen and Clarke in believing they know how best to spend my money for me makes me sick...and there's obviously nothing that scares them more than the thought of independence being encouraged in the voting populace...

That's a bit glib isn't it? Can't you just pretend that all your taxes are spent on only the things that are important to you such as health care, Police, roads etc.

On the other hand if really do want to live tax free and you can find such a society then I'm sure they'll welome your contribution.

[Number One]

WFF is an effing joke!

If I wanted anything from it - I'd need to pop some more sproggs and go back to one income...we are too rich you see...such crapola.

Working for families seems to only "work for some"

[The Pastor]

gst should be removed from basic foods. bread butter milk cheese maccas etc

also gst should be removed from petrol.

and motorbikes :)

[Clockwork]

No, you dont. I know someone on a benefit who gets several hundred a week from WFF.

According to the WFF website, the $$$ you get is in 4 parts, only one of which is "work" tested.

Hmmm the way it reads to me is that only one component FTC is available to all. But I stand corrected, who'ld have thought those beneficiaries with kids might need more money than those without!



WFF is an effing joke!

If I wanted anything from it - I'd need to pop some more sproggs and go back to one income...we are too rich you see...such crapola.

Working for families seems to only "work for some"

So you think WFF would be a good idea... if you qualified? Jesus, there seems to be enough people pissed off that its paid at all, without making it available to everyone.

[brendonjw]

:Oi: So what about giving a helping hand to those of us that are single and working, we still have expenses too and they keep on going up, just because i dont want to be iresponsable and bring a child into the world that i may not yet be afford to give a good upbringing too. Across the board tax break as far as im concerned, not just targeted to one group

[Winston001]

Forget about tinkering with GST. NZ is one of the few countries in the world with a simple sales tax system. The moment you introduce exceptions, you introduce accountants and plenty more work for them. Nothing against accountants mind, its just unnecessary complexity to make exemptions.

[Winston001]

How about a simple tax cut - the first $7000 earned (include welfare benefits) tax-free. No WFF. The low paid have more in the hand, no incentive to have more children than you can afford, WFF bureacuracy red tape removed.

[Swoop]

Across the board tax break as far as im concerned, not just targeted to one group
A tax break??

Under labour??:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'm still waiting for the "packet of chewing gum" the liars promised us at the last election.

Unfortunately, some stupid idiots thought it was real and actually voted for the maggots.

[Morcs]

I hate governments that take heaps of money from the honest, and give to the people who cant be arsed working - sorry, are in hardship.

[Number One]

So you think WFF would be a good idea... if you qualified?

NO - what I was saying is that I think it is a joke fullstop! Even if I qualified it wouldn't go very far to helping things...I have yet to meet a family that does get that assistance who thinks it is 'terribly helpful'.

O and to be more on topic - Removing GST on food SHOULD happen!

[Timati]

Interesting Articles

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/04/gst_on_petrol.html

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/04/a_labour_mashup.html

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:scZkP94UwYUJ:www.buseco.monash.edu. au/blt/jat/2000-issue6-kenny.pdf+GST+Exemptions+Countries&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16

[MisterD]

That's a bit glib isn't it? Can't you just pretend that all your taxes are spent on only the things that are important to you such as health care, Police, roads etc.

On the other hand if really do want to live tax free and you can find such a society then I'm sure they'll welome your contribution.

Now who's being glib?

WFF is a process whereby a bunch of people are paid to take money off us, then another bunch of people are paid to give it back to those that qualify.
You can't tell me it wouldn't be more efficient just to work out a way just to take less money off the average working Kiwi in the first place...society should provide a safety net, not a hammock and Sky TV.

[Clockwork]

But then all those unemployed public servants might start to breed more beneficiaries.

Anyway, WFF wasn't really the point of this thread. I believe its orginal purpose was to bash the Government no matter what it does so...

...as you were.

[avgas]

well, i did'nt vote for the pricks
and as thick as they are, i'll bet its not there fault why everyones leaving the country too....
If ya can't vote for your country, you have to vote with you feet.

[mister.koz]

The more i look at it the more appealing the aussie shores are. I earn a reasonable buck but nothing special and my tax every fortnight is a reasonably painful figure.

The "initiatives" that have been put in place to help people in need are quickly made bad by people who abuse the system. Too many times at 2am on a thursday morning i have been at countdown in the need for a programming-chocolate rush and seen queue's of people with 4 boxes of beer and a loaf of bread.

I have talked to people who have had kids so they don't have to work :spanking: what life does that offer the kids? one of them even bragged about earning more than most people, owning her own house and not working for it.... i am not saying parenting isn't working, but becoming a parent so you don't have to work is just crap.

Its hard to be overly patriotic when some people (definately not all) take advantage of the tax we all pay.

I think taking GST off of food is a silly idea, it will just have to be made up elsewhere... It would make more sense if they implemented a non-percentage based tax on fuel; a fixed rate like 30c a litre. currently the more expensive fuel gets, the more tax you pay, its just another bang for people who drive around a bit! and being that gas is pricey, the people who can afford it (i.e. working people) end up paying MORE tax.

Lucky i just sold my subaru's and have 2 wheels now, long live the 250cc :)

[judecatmad]

Helen Clark has announced that the petition for removal of GST on foods will not be considered by the labour government, instead stating that the government would address hardship through there working for families scheme.

When I heard her say that in interview I found myself ranting at the TV screen!! Poor old TV.

What (s)he fails to understand is it's not just the families eligible for working for families that are hurting any more. And those eligible for help are actually, in some instances, in a BETTER position than those paying full whack for everything.

I looked at the working for families site about 6 months ago, when they announced that many more families would now be eligible, and with one child we would get about $12 a week if I stayed off work. Wouldn't even buy a 1kg block of cheese!

[Corsa.co]

I don`t know why,you guys Voted for them!

[madandy]

I struggle to understand Labour's policies at times.
I'm all for raising the overall standard of living but I resent the unemployed with uptmost contempt. There are jobs that need doing and only immigrfants who'll accept low wages will do them!
Unemployed for more than 3 months and physically able? Pick fruit, mow lawns, hell sweep the streets mate.
It's usually easier to find a better job when you're in employment so those actively searching for work they like would be more likely to get that 'dream job' if they were working rather than not.
There's far too many people collecting sickness benefits that should be working...too many people being too picky about the sort of work they do and staying on the gummint payroll.

[NighthawkNZ]

I struggle to understand Labour's policies at times.
I'm all for raising the overall standard of living but I resent the unemployed with uptmost contempt. There are jobs that need doing and only immigrfants who'll accept low wages will do them!
Unemployed for more than 3 months and physically able? Pick fruit, mow lawns, hell sweep the streets mate.
It's usually easier to find a better job when you're in employment so those actively searching for work they like would be more likely to get that 'dream job' if they were working rather than not.
There's far too many people collecting sickness benefits that should be working...too many people being too picky about the sort of work they do and staying on the gummint payroll.
Labours policy for everything is to tax it... that will fix you see...

[Mully]

Labours policy for everything is to tax it... that will fix you see...

If it moves, tax it till it stops moving.

Then subsidise it.

[peasea]

Perhaps removing some of the taxes from petrol would kill two birds with one stone. Bring gas prices down, and also have an effect on food prices too.


And we could drive to KFC for a cheaper feed.

[Hitcher]

Hopefully this GST exemption nonsense is just a flash in the pan. The strength of an effective GST system is lack of exemptions/loopholes for the entrepreneurial and enterprising to extort. People are poor and can't afford life's necessities because visionless and spineless politicians have no vision for New Zealand and have fucked the economy through excessive regulation, bureaucracy, taxation and spending. An over-zealous socialist approach has taken the focus off growing a bigger economic cake, instead obsessing about "fairly" allocating a shrinking one.

And now, as they can smell the fumes from their fast-evaporating chances of electoral success, tax cuts are being bundled through in haste. It will take more than shallow stunts like that to save your arse, Dr Cullen. Too little, too late.

I'm still waiting for that big picture vision, from any politician, not just the inept whose bloated, corrupt and venal arses reside on the treasury benches.

[Brett]

Election year anyone? Anyone remember the chewing gum tax credits?

[Clockwork]

...growing a bigger economic cake...

Nice catch phrase, reminds me of the last one the economic right wing sold us, "the trickle down effect". That worked well.

[Swoop]

Election year anyone? Anyone remember the chewing gum tax credits?
Also, getting rid of "vicious" dogs, by TAXING all dog owners with the micro-chipping law...

[sAsLEX]

Also, getting rid of "vicious" dogs, by TAXING all dog owners with the micro-chipping law...

That will stop the sort of people that have dangerous dogs........... pass a tui :apint:

[MisterD]

Nice catch phrase, reminds me of the last one the economic right wing sold us, "the trickle down effect". That worked well.

Rather than the "flood across the Tasman" effect that socialist jealousy has given us...

[Hitcher]

Rather than the "flood across the Tasman" effect that socialist jealousy has given us...

"Socialist jealously"? More like a socialist theocracy. Mugabe, Castro, Putin, Clark. All lovely people but misunderstood...

[mowgli]

Helen Clark has announced that the petition for removal of GST on foods will not be considered by the labour government, instead stating that the government would address hardship through there working for families scheme.
Helen et al should try living on a WFF wage and see how motivated they are to improve their lot.

Which would you choose?

Three steps forward, two steps back, or
Ditch the old man, pop another sprog and advance to go.


This country's broken :( May I have another?

[Skyryder]

I use to think Clark had some political savy. There was a time when she did but in all honesty I do not think that way now on her stance on GST. Oddly enough her decision not to include GST on food items has been applauded by both National and ACT and that alone should dispell any myths that this Labour Govt is a socialist govt. She has missed the one golden oppertunity to take the political initive. All she had to do was to remove GST on New Zealand grown food. Be it fresh or canned. Cullen/Clarke have claimed that admin costs are the reason that GST will not be removed from food items. But the real reason is to remove GST on localy grown produce and keep it on imported food items is that the Chinese would interpt such a move as a breach of the recent China 'deal.' I've given this Govt a lot of leeway here but I consider the China deal as much a stab in the back as I did with Rodgernomics.


Skyryder

[Clockwork]

Rather than the "flood across the Tasman" effect that socialist jealousy has given us...

Yes, the grass is always greener. They have a bigger economy and way more job opportunities. They are paid more but then they're still heavily unionised, they never had the Employment Contracts Act. They protect their domestic industries and actually have a local market big enough to suport a manufacturing base. They have massive mineral wealth and for their export earnings they dont have to rely on gaining access to probably the most protected markets of the world, agicultural produce. Oh and they have a Labour Government.

But where did we get the idea that they are taxed significanly less, they are taxed differently, what about their stamp duties, healthcare contributions and compulsory savings. Did you read yesterday's editorial in the Dominion?

Sure, our taxes may be high by world standards, we have a large infrastructure and bugger all population without any of the advantages of Australia that I have mentioned above.

Where did we get they idea that Austrailia has no dole bludgers. As I recall the Aussies seem to feel (rightly or wrongly) that too many of them are Kiwis. And as for bureaucracy, I work for a company the was run by Kiwis, it was sold to the Aussies and since then the place has come to a standstill for all the bloody petty rules, regulations, meetings, indecision, and endless managers with wanky job titles.

That country has eight Governments, imagine the rules and regulations they live with!


"Socialist jealously"? More like a socialist theocracy. Mugabe, Castro, Putin, Clark. All lovely people but misunderstood...

Hitcher, I've been lurking around this site long enough to know you are way too intelligent to need to resort to these sorts of silly comments. I believe you will find despots at both ends of the political spectum, lets stick to the issues.

[Mully]

Helen et al should try living on a WFF wage and see how motivated they are to improve their lot.

I maintain that the quickest way to raise the average wage, and therefore the standard of living, in this country would be to make the politicains live on the average wage.

[Mully]

Oh and they have a Labour Government.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fuck me, you're right.

So, they were completely fucked until NOVEMBER LAST YEAR, when they had a centre-right government for damn near 12 years.

Mate, you have made some valid points, but to mention Australia having a Labour government to support your arguement is pushing it uphill. With a sharp stick.

[MisterD]

But where did we get the idea that they are taxed significanly less, they are taxed differently, what about their stamp duties, healthcare contributions and compulsory savings. Did you read yesterday's editorial in the Dominion?

Finn posted a link to a compartive tax calculator a while ago...I'd be significantly better off, to the point that MrsD could look to be a full-time Mum, but having dragged myself here from England the hassle barrier is just high enough to keep me in NZ. If Labour manages to get back in though....

[Clockwork]

Finn posted a link to a compartive tax calculator a while ago...I'd be significantly better off, to the point that MrsD could look to be a full-time Mum, but having dragged myself here from England the hassle barrier is just high enough to keep me in NZ. If Labour manages to get back in though....

OK, but did the calculator account for the hidden taxes I have mentioned or was it just the headline stuff?

[MisterD]

OK, but did the calculator account for the hidden taxes I have mentioned or was it just the headline stuff?

Did include healthcare, but not "spending" taxes like GST and duty of booze or petrol.

[Clockwork]

If I recall correctly, these days if you immigrate to Aus you're expected to pay all of their taxes but unless you are a citizen you will be inelligable for any of their benefits, so you better hope the grass is as green as it looks.

[oldrider]

I use to think Clark had some political savy. There was a time when she did but in all honesty I do not think that way now on her stance on GST. Oddly enough her decision not to include GST on food items has been applauded by both National and ACT and that alone should dispell any myths that this Labour Govt is a socialist govt. She has missed the one golden oppertunity to take the political initive. All she had to do was to remove GST on New Zealand grown food. Be it fresh or canned. Cullen/Clarke have claimed that admin costs are the reason that GST will not be removed from food items. But the real reason is to remove GST on localy grown produce and keep it on imported food items is that the Chinese would interpt such a move as a breach of the recent China 'deal.' I've given this Govt a lot of leeway here but I consider the China deal as much a stab in the back as I did with Rodgernomics.


Skyryder

At least the Labour party is consistent: They always stab their supporters in the back!

How do I know that?

I have witnessed them do it every time they have been in power, since the 1940's!

I began to become politically aware (slowly albeit) from the late 1940's.

Labour are consistent "liars". (IMHO)

Labour depend upon their supporters to remain loyal and stupid, much like an alcoholic defending their bottle!

They will be back for that elusive fourth term because that blind stupid faith is still in the majority in New Zealand! :mellow:

Hard working thinking people will continue to desert NZ in droves and Labour will fill the vacuum with their quick fix Chinese friends. (read "voters)" :shifty:

I wasted my first vote on the Labour party! :spanking: Never, ever, ever again. :confused: John.

[Skyryder]

At least the Labour party is consistent: They always stab their supporters in the back!

How do I know that?

I have witnessed them do it every time they have been in power, since the 1940's!

I began to become politically aware (slowly albeit) from the late 1940's.

Labour are consistent "liars". (IMHO)

Labour depend upon their supporters to remain loyal and stupid, much like an alcoholic defending their bottle!

They will be back for that elusive fourth term because that blind stupid faith is still in the majority in New Zealand! :mellow:

Hard working thinking people will continue to desert NZ in droves and Labour will fill the vacuum with their quick fix Chinese friends. (read "voters)" :shifty:

I wasted my first vote on the Labour party! :spanking: Never, ever, ever again. :confused: John.

Some would say they are the lesser of two evils. But I take you point.

Skyryder

[Toaster]

I personally disagree with removing GST from food goods. Having in the past administered the GST Act I can assure you it would be a nightmare to do this and it has caused many an issue in Aust (GST) and the UK (VAT) and adds cost to administering a more complex regime due to complexities around definitions of what falls in or out of the GST exemption. Removal of GST also promotes price rises, thereby often eliminating the benefit to the consumer and improving profit margins for the companies.

I recommend a reduction to all the personal tax rates and increases in the tax thresholds to most effectively provide more cash to those that earn it and also reduce the burden on those on Govt Super.

Both the resulting savings and spending are taxed (providing govt revenue indirectly instead of directly), through RWT and GST and is no more inflationary than the Govt spending (Stick that up your bum Cullen!) our taxes on burgeoning state services and govt ministries full of overpaid bureaucrats and non professional "managers" achieving bugger all towards better education or health services.

Ireland cut both company and personal tax rates dramatically many years back. Companies flooded into the economy and employment rocketed. They are considered the economic tiger of europe for their radical and very successful aggressive policies.

[Skyryder]

I personally disagree with removing GST from food goods. Having in the past administered the GST Act I can assure you it would be a nightmare to do this and it has caused many an issue in Aust (GST) and the UK (VAT) and adds cost to administering a more complex regime due to complexities around definitions of what falls in or out of the GST exemption. Removal of GST also promotes price rises, thereby often eliminating the benefit to the consumer and improving profit margins for the companies.

The definition could be localy grown and produced. That's pretty clear but as I mentioned Cullen/Clarke have used admin costs from overseas models as the 'defining' excuse for not reducing gst or eliminating it altogether on home grown produce for resons that I have posted in this thread.


Skyryder

[idleidolidyll]

do you really think it will be better under national?

when it comes to selling NZ to the lowest bidders, national has first prize and will take every opportunity to do it again.

already they have said they will subsidise a private foreign company (telecom) to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars with tax payers money.

wait a while and the sale of NZ will become even more rapid.

if ya want it to stop, vote green, winnie or perhaps act but don't for a moment suggest that national is less likely than labour to sell our assets 'cause that'd just make you an obviously ignorant dikhed

[Skyryder]

do you really think it will be better under national?

when it comes to selling NZ to the lowest bidders, national has first prize and will take every opportunity to do it again.

already they have said they will subsidise a private foreign company (telecom) to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars with tax payers money.

wait a while and the sale of NZ will become even more rapid.

if ya want it to stop, vote green, winnie or perhaps act but don't for a moment suggest that national is less likely than labour to sell our assets 'cause that'd just make you an obviously ignorant dikhed


Key has only promised not to sell assets first term of Govt. After that's it's all on. In financial circles Key was known as the Silent Assassain. He has not the politicl skills for this at the moment but the mindset is the same.

Skyyrder

[oldrider]

Would you buy a used motorbike off any of the political parties that are offering themselves to you to manage your country for you? :Oops:

I recommend you think "very" carefully before you make your commitment to entrusting them with your and my security at election time this year! :2guns:

I find it difficult to find any of them that are worthy of my support! :argh:

I am still looking very hard though. :sweatdrop I guess there is always hope! :shifty: John.

[limbimtimwim]

Ireland cut both company and personal tax rates dramatically many years back. Companies flooded into the economy and employment rocketed. They are considered the economic tiger of europe for their radical and very successful aggressive policies.It wasn't that simple, though they did cut company taxes to something really low, like 10%.

They also received large subsidies from the EU, opened their borders to migrant workers (From within the EU anyway) and have proximity to both Europe and to some extent the USA.

NZ doesn't attract subsidies from offshore, has locals scared of immigrants and we don't have 400 million people within farting distance to buy our stuff.

I'm not saying there are not lessons to be learnt from Ireland, but our situation is a bit different.

In my opinion NZ needs clever politicians with their eye on the big picture who are not trying to justify their existence with reactionary policy.

[rainman]

Would you buy a used motorbike off any of the political parties that are offering themselves to you to manage your country for you? :Oops:


Only the Greens. But it'd probably have to be a pushbike then :)


I find it difficult to find any of them that are worthy of my support! :argh:

My problem exactly - the only lot worth anything in the trust and integrity stakes are the Greens, although it would be a real stretch to have them managing the country.

[Brett]

I personally disagree with removing GST from food goods. Having in the past administered the GST Act I can assure you it would be a nightmare to do this and it has caused many an issue in Aust (GST) and the UK (VAT) and adds cost to administering a more complex regime due to complexities around definitions of what falls in or out of the GST exemption. Removal of GST also promotes price rises, thereby often eliminating the benefit to the consumer and improving profit margins for the companies.

I recommend a reduction to all the personal tax rates and increases in the tax thresholds to most effectively provide more cash to those that earn it and also reduce the burden on those on Govt Super.

Both the resulting savings and spending are taxed (providing govt revenue indirectly instead of directly), through RWT and GST and is no more inflationary than the Govt spending (Stick that up your bum Cullen!) our taxes on burgeoning state services and govt ministries full of overpaid bureaucrats and non professional "managers" achieving bugger all towards better education or health services.

Ireland cut both company and personal tax rates dramatically many years back. Companies flooded into the economy and employment rocketed. They are considered the economic tiger of europe for their radical and very successful aggressive policies.


I second your motion. Especially after reding Don Brashes article in the Herald this morning. Normally he can be a bit of a dick, but he is right about GST being a nightmare accounting wise if it is removed only from food items. I also feel it needs to either come as a form of tax credit where the person themselves can get a tax credit on the income tax based on how much GST they spent on food for the tax year. Obviously, this moves the onus of recording the GST to be submitted for credit from the shop owner to the individual. That or just a general tax reduction.

[What?]

Anyone remember when GST was 10%?
Ever wondered why it went up to 12.5%?
Simple fact is, 7.5c of every 10c brought in went out in administration.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that cutting GST off food would necessitate an increase in GST on everything else.

As for general taxes;
* let us not forget that it was Labour that slashed the top income tax rate from 66% down to 39%
* income tax in NZ is reasonably low by most standards
* that the gummint has a budget surplus does not mean that the nation has spare cash (there is a small matter called National Debt)
* what a wonderful economic model many people have thinking that we should have better health care, better education, better roads etc etc etc, and pay for all this with a tax cut...

It is a simple, but very straight fact that you can not have your cake and eat it too.

[munterk6]

Blah blah blah f@#king BLAH!!!!
Its all the same ol rhetoric coming from the same ol liars over and over again.
NOTHING CHANGES!!!!!
Meet the new Boss....same as the old Boss.
The ONLY way to get the politicians to listen is........



















STOP PAYING TAX ....for two weeks, yes thats right TWO WEEKS.
If we all pull together as a team we can have them on their knees begging forgiveness and asking us how they can help.
Do ya think 3 million tax paying sheep could be that organised?????
Problem is, eveyone is so enslaved (all self inflicted I may add) to the banks/financial system they cannot afford to stop working for two weeks...so we are our own worst enemy....:(
They need a short sharp shock to jolt them out of their arrogant belief that we are here for them, and remind them that they are here for us!

[Oscar]

Anyone remember when GST was 10%?
Ever wondered why it went up to 12.5%?
Simple fact is, 7.5c of every 10c brought in went out in administration.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that cutting GST off food would necessitate an increase in GST on everything else.

As for general taxes;
* let us not forget that it was Labour that slashed the top income tax rate from 66% down to 39%
* income tax in NZ is reasonably low by most standards* that the gummint has a budget surplus does not mean that the nation has spare cash (there is a small matter called National Debt)
* what a wonderful economic model many people have thinking that we should have better health care, better education, better roads etc etc etc, and pay for all this with a tax cut...

It is a simple, but very straight fact that you can not have your cake and eat it too.

What a maroon...
Just for now, we'll ignore your other dellusions and start with this bewdy:
"Income tax in NZ is reasonably low by most standards" - what did you measure it against?
The marginal rate is 39% as you mentioned, but this is nought to be proud of - do you have any idea what that does for the Australian economy? And even if Labour brought it down, they haven't moved the threshold in years, so we have enormous "bracket creep". Since the last election 150,000 extra taxpayers have moved into the 39c bracket.

[Oscar]

Bracket creep used to fund Labour spend upThursday, 27 March 2008, 1:30 pm
Press Release: New Zealand National Party

Bill English MP
National Party Finance Spokesman

27 March 2008

Bracket creep used to fund Labour spend up

National Party Finance spokesman Bill English says people on the average wage are paying more and more tax to fund Labour's next round of election promises.

"Under Labour a growing number of New Zealanders have been hit with extra tax because their incomes have increased with inflation."

Mr English is releasing figures which show that while the average wage has risen by 29.9% in the past seven years, the amount of tax paid on the average wage at has gone up by 43.7%.


Anyone working harder in this country gets to pay proportionally more & more tax. Suckers.

[Oscar]

do you really think it will be better under national?

when it comes to selling NZ to the lowest bidders, national has first prize and will take every opportunity to do it again.

already they have said they will subsidise a private foreign company (telecom) to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars with tax payers money.

wait a while and the sale of NZ will become even more rapid.

if ya want it to stop, vote green, winnie or perhaps act but don't for a moment suggest that national is less likely than labour to sell our assets 'cause that'd just make you an obviously ignorant dikhed


So we should stick with the idjuts we've got, rather than risk more idjuts?
Who said the $1.5b is going to Telecom, you moron?

[Robert Taylor]

So we should stick with the idjuts we've got, rather than risk more idjuts?
Who said the $1.5b is going to Telecom, you moron?

The reality is the goalposts need moving a hell of a lot more than just for the sheer satisfaction of removing the smirk off Cullens face. Those at the very top and those at the very bottom are in their own ways ripping the system, and of course that includes the international banking system and mulitnationals that we are all subservient to.
Personally I would favour a totalitarian system for a handful of years to rattle this country back to some sort of reality, if it is possible to do so without corruption.

[idleidolidyll]

Key has only promised not to sell assets first term of Govt. After that's it's all on. In financial circles Key was known as the Silent Assassain. He has not the politicl skills for this at the moment but the mindset is the same.

Skyyrder

Yep, the first term will be spent planning what to sell and the next two terms will be selling whatever they can to subsidise short term gain in tax cuts as they destroy social welfare and social services

only dreamers and the ignorami really believe national won't sell NZ out to whoever they can

[idleidolidyll]

The reality is the goalposts need moving a hell of a lot more than just for the sheer satisfaction of removing the smirk off Cullens face. Those at the very top and those at the very bottom are in their own ways ripping the system, and of course that includes the international banking system and mulitnationals that we are all subservient to.
Personally I would favour a totalitarian system for a handful of years to rattle this country back to some sort of reality, if it is possible to do so without corruption.

seig heil!

Robert Taylor votes for fascism

why am i not surprised?

[idleidolidyll]

So we should stick with the idjuts we've got, rather than risk more idjuts?
Who said the $1.5b is going to Telecom, you moron?

grow a brain stupid, i said 'subsidise' telecom

why the fuck should tax payers spent 1.5 billion so that private foreign owned companies can charge us for the services we build with that money?

[Robert Taylor]

seig heil!

Robert Taylor votes for fascism

why am i not surprised?

Why am I not surprised that is the assumption you would automatically make....I believe in a fair deal for everyone under a label ''compassionate conservatism'' Its a little unfortunate that people who choose to disagree with left leaning principles are labelled ''dickheads'' or such like.
If you want to define the early beginnings of fascist leanings look no further than the ''bitch from belsen'' and her cocky little cheshire cat running this country. As for the greens....well I had some respect for some of Rod Donalds less radical views, no disrespect to him but the best one is a dead one.
My father and his father before that both fought in the European theatres of the 2 respective world wars to help defeat fascism. I respect them and their contemporaries for doing so.
Call me any name you care but I think Ive got a little more respect for other peoples views ( thats saying something ) than the rivers of abusive filth that pour forth from many posts.

[Manxman]

Ding, ding. Round 3.
:corn:
Rob-ert, Rob-ert, Rob-ert...

[98tls]

Prescribe any remedy you like boys but methinks the ship has sunk,to late to bad.Every man for himself i say.Coming from the country i say "bring back Rob" :jerry:Muldoon that is.No offence Rob T.

[rainman]

only dreamers and the ignorami really believe national won't sell NZ out to whoever they can

I didn't realise there was much left to sell....

...but yup, I have no doubt that if we have two terms of a Nat govt, anything not nailed down would be sold. Come to think of it though, I'm not sure this is an area where Labour is that much different. :(

[Oscar]

grow a brain stupid, i said 'subsidise' telecom

why the fuck should tax payers spent 1.5 billion so that private foreign owned companies can charge us for the services we build with that money?

OK, smart guy - explain the difference between "subsidising" someone $1.5b and giving it to them.

Then, if yer not too tired from all that thinking, tell us who else is supposed to skin up the money for IT infrastructure. Or perhaps, you're one of those Greenie "great leap backwards" morons who'd have us all living in caves, knitting our own yoghurt.

[Oscar]

seig heil!

Robert Taylor votes for fascism

why am i not surprised?

Why are you not surprised?
Perhaps your melon is as devoid of intellect as your posts here...?

[MisterD]

already they have said they will subsidise a private foreign company (telecom) to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars with tax payers money.

It won't neccessarily be Telecom, it could easily be Vodafone that antes up - but guess what they're "foreign owned" too, but the funny thing is I know plenty of Kiwis with shares in both.

Secondly, whichever actually gets the gig, it will more than likely be Downer Engineering that does the work, who are Australian....but the majority of the costs of build are going to be a) equipment, which is by neccessity all Merkin, European, Japanese and b) Labour costs....it will actually be a heap of Kiwi workers earning money to put fibre into the ground, and that all goes back in tax and spend into the economy.

This is as vital to the country as railways were in the 1800's

I think it's a fantastic policy, but I'll declare an interest - if this gets done, I may get to sell a fair bit of test gear to the network owner and the service providers too.

[Robert Taylor]

Ding, ding. Round 3.
:corn:
Rob-ert, Rob-ert, Rob-ert...

Dont worry, largely those of foul mouth and untreatable communist tendencies should be ignored with the contempt that they truly deserve! Enough said.

[avgas]

Secondly, whichever actually gets the gig, it will more than likely be Downer Engineering that does the work, who are Australian.
Tell that to Alcatel Lucent and Transfield, If the power industry is anything to go buy i think the tendering process is going to get nasty.

[Robert Taylor]

Prescribe any remedy you like boys but methinks the ship has sunk,to late to bad.Every man for himself i say.Coming from the country i say "bring back Rob" :jerry:Muldoon that is.No offence Rob T.

Well......like the bitch from belsen he had dictator like tendencies and he was also a socialist. BUT, he was better looking, had a sense of humour and was very likable.
And I think all the cabinet ministers of the era of the pre Kirk Government era were a better class of person than what we have today. If you look at the Marshall government they were a good bunch of kiwi blokes with their feet firmly on the ground. Then the country totally lost its marbles and elected that idiot Kirk. That is where the rot started to set in.

[MisterD]

Tell that to Alcatel Lucent and Transfield, If the power industry is anything to go buy i think the tendering process is going to get nasty.

I did say "more than likely" and with the relative strengths of Downer and Transfield - given than Downer have just bought Astute (Vodaf and TClear's main contractor) that's what I'd predict.

Alcatel-Lucent will get the install work for the active equipment, then if form is anything to go by, subcontract to Downers.

[Skyryder]

Why am I not surprised that is the assumption you would automatically make....I believe in a fair deal for everyone under a label ''compassionate conservatism''

Compassionete conservatism:rofl::rofl::rofl:. First time I've heard of the Oxymoron Party.

Where do they rule?


Skyryder

[idleidolidyll]

Why am I not surprised that is the assumption you would automatically make....I believe in a fair deal for everyone under a label ''compassionate conservatism''

That's fucking hjilarious! The current example of 'compassionate conservatism' is the USA where victims of hurricane Katrina largley remain in abject poverty and have been actively prevented from returning to their home city. Where the poor are sent to die for the rich in an illegal war. Where 'trickle down' has always been a farce and 'rush up' is the reality. Where more than 10% of the country cannot afford basic health care insurance. Where racism was supposed to have ended just 50 years ago bit where in fact it is practiced by government at all levels. Where "No Child Left Behind" works for the rich but not for the poor.

Compassionate conservatism is merely a smoke screen to hide abuse.

Its a little unfortunate that people who choose to disagree with left leaning principles are labelled ''dickheads'' or such like.

It's not the choice of left or right, it's the ignorance of the effects of abusive policies with pretty propagandist names that invite the epithet.

If you want to define the early beginnings of fascist leanings look no further than the ''bitch from belsen'' and her cocky little cheshire cat running this country. As for the greens....well I had some respect for some of Rod Donalds less radical views, no disrespect to him but the best one is a dead one.

No, I am not interested in defining your use of fascism, the word is classically defined as "Extreme right wing dictatorial government" and it did not start in Belsen or in Germany. It started many many centuries ago but was given a name by Mussolini and fascist Spain. Ignorance of history is as pitiful as ignorance of cause and effect.
Your childish attack on Clark is another wonderful piece of wilful ignorance: ignorance of the tact that leadership of the right wing parties of NZ have almost always been more dictatorial and manipulative than she.

My father and his father before that both fought in the European theatres of the 2 respective world wars to help defeat fascism. I respect them and their contemporaries for doing so.

And? Re herrings and other logical fallacies are completely unimpressive. My father fought in Vietnam and Malaysia, does that make everything I say the word of god?

Call me any name you care but I think Ive got a little more respect for other peoples views ( thats saying something ) than the rivers of abusive filth that pour forth from many posts.

No, you are completely intolerant and your advocacy of fascism, heartless conservatism and condemnation of the poor and disadvantaged here identify your vain, but common among conservatives, belief that you are superior and 'know whats best' for them attitude.

'Conservatism' cloaked in a thin veil of compassion has so far slaughtered or caused the deaths of tens of millions of human beings and the terrorism of many millions more and that slaughter and terrorism is continued today by the creatures behind the US government you seem to so admire. Conservatism should be identified as it is in fact: intolerance and abuse.

[idleidolidyll]

It won't neccessarily be Telecom, it could easily be Vodafone that antes up - but guess what they're "foreign owned" too, but the funny thing is I know plenty of Kiwis with shares in both.

Secondly, whichever actually gets the gig, it will more than likely be Downer Engineering that does the work, who are Australian....but the majority of the costs of build are going to be a) equipment, which is by neccessity all Merkin, European, Japanese and b) Labour costs....it will actually be a heap of Kiwi workers earning money to put fibre into the ground, and that all goes back in tax and spend into the economy.

This is as vital to the country as railways were in the 1800's

I think it's a fantastic policy, but I'll declare an interest - if this gets done, I may get to sell a fair bit of test gear to the network owner and the service providers too.

'Telecom' was merely a flag of identification. Indeed, a raft opf foreign commercial enterprises will benefit from the gift out of tax payers money. They will use that gift to charge us for the privelage of giving it.
Capitalism is a social failure when the money of the poor and middle classes are used to increase the profits of the rich and privelaged.

[idleidolidyll]

Compassionete conservatism:rofl::rofl::rofl:. First time I've heard of the Oxymoron Party.

Where do they rule?


Skyryder

They rule in the USA and as you've guessed; it's all just smoke and mirrors hiding abuse and manipulation designed to increase power and privelage for the haves at the expense of the have nots.

[idleidolidyll]

OK, smart guy - explain the difference between "subsidising" someone $1.5b and giving it to them.

Then, if yer not too tired from all that thinking, tell us who else is supposed to skin up the money for IT infrastructure. Or perhaps, you're one of those Greenie "great leap backwards" morons who'd have us all living in caves, knitting our own yoghurt.

be a little clearer; i'm not interested in explaining the entire world to you.

capitalist enterprises reserve the right to charge like wounded bulls for the investments their money buys. I object to them making massive profits from the very people who fund their enterprises.

for our money:
they get a new product to charge us for
we get nothing but charged for it

[idleidolidyll]

This is as vital to the country as railways were in the 1800's



perhaps it is but if the public pays for it, the public should own it.
i have no issue stumping up with the money as long as it doesn't just mean foreign owned companies with no NZ social conscience get to make huge profits from our money by charging us for the very thing we paid for again and again and again

[Flatcap]

Capitalism is a social failure when the money of the poor and middle classes are used to increase the profits of the rich and privelaged.

Yes - capitalism is the worst economic system, apart from all the rest.

[Flatcap]

'Conservatism' cloaked in a thin veil of compassion has so far slaughtered or caused the deaths of tens of millions of human beings and the terrorism of many millions more and that slaughter and terrorism is continued today by the creatures behind the US government you seem to so admire. Conservatism should be identified as it is in fact: intolerance and abuse.

Nah - you are referring to religion.

It is possible to be an atheist conservative

[idleidolidyll]

Compassionete conservatism:rofl::rofl::rofl:. First time I've heard of the Oxymoron Party.

Where do they rule?


Skyryder

They rule in the land of the brave, the home of the free; a place that should more clearly be identified as the land of bullshit and institutionalized greed.
This is a place where the most violent acts of mankind are celebrated, publicised and profited from massively but where the leadership roundly condems much public discussion and advertising of mankinds most basic nature: sex and reproduction, sex and pleasure.

The land is snake oil incarnate and a model of 'legitimised' abuse the world should identify clearly as one to avoid at all costs. the term 'compassionate consevative' is just another in a long long long line of propagandist labels designed to sell abuse and hatred to suckers and those who suffer under it.

[Pussy]

Nah - you are referring to religion.

It is possible to be an atheist conservative

Haha! Love your work! :woohoo:

[idleidolidyll]

Nah - you are referring to religion.

It is possible to be an atheist conservative

yes, i am referring to religion to a great extent but although it is possible to be an atheist conservative, that doesn't make conservatism any easier to swallow for those suffering under it.

of course much of the problem is that propogandists have manipulated the very meanings of these political words so much that many arguments can be completely nullified by the clear agreement of terminology.

I've pointed to the 'practice' of the term in the US, I'd be interested to hear what propoganda the followers of the term offer to justify it.

[Robert Taylor]

No, you are completely intolerant and your advocacy of fascism, heartless conservatism and condemnation of the poor and disadvantaged here identify your vain, but common among conservatives, belief that you are superior and 'know whats best' for them attitude.

'Conservatism' cloaked in a thin veil of compassion has so far slaughtered or caused the deaths of tens of millions of human beings and the terrorism of many millions more and that slaughter and terrorism is continued today by the creatures behind the US government you seem to so admire. Conservatism should be identified as it is in fact: intolerance and abuse.

It is clear that your interpretation of compassionate conservatism is somewhat different to mine. Its therefore unfortunate that you have instantly identified such a mentality with the perverse way the yanks run their society.
In fact some of our views coincide, especially with respect to how overseas bankers and multinationals dictate how we live. I believe in a fair deal for everybody, especially the working and middle classes who are being screwed big time. I just refuse to believe that full blown socialism and handouts is the way to run a society.
You accuse me of defining by labels and of intolerance, may I suggest in response that your posts demonstrate ''loud'' intolerance of those who dont agree with you. Whilst at the same time lowering the decorum by littering your posts with aggressive expletives, theres nothing at all clever in that and its really rather sad. I think you should take some time out to think that it is possible to both hold conservative beliefs and believe in a fair deal.

[Skyryder]

be a little clearer; i'm not interested in explaining the entire world to you.

capitalist enterprises reserve the right to charge like wounded bulls for the investments their money buys. I object to them making massive profits from the very people who fund their enterprises.

for our money:
they get a new product to charge us for
we get nothing but charged for it


Could not have said it better myself. Trouble is so much PR goes into deluding the general public by 'think tank' types that we actually 'believe' that we are better off.

Skyryder

[idleidolidyll]

Nah - you are referring to religion.

It is possible to be an atheist conservative

So do compassionate conservatives really exist in the literal sense rather than the propagandist?

sure, just as do compassionate communists, compassionate atheists, compassionate capitalists etc.

Robert Taylor doesn't strike me as one though: his constant attacks on the poor and underprivelaged without equal condemnation of abusive wealthy and privelaged indicates that he is not actually compassionate for any but his own, just that he has an agenda best covered by the propagandist term "compassionate conservatism".

[Flatcap]

No, you are completely intolerant and your advocacy of fascism, heartless conservatism and condemnation of the poor and disadvantaged here identify your vain, but common among conservatives, belief that you are superior and 'know whats best' for them attitude.


I certainly 'know whats best' when the poor and disadvantaged are spending my tax dollars....and I wouldn't expect any difference if our positions were reversed.

[Flatcap]

So do compassionate conservatives really exist in the literal sense rather than the propagandist?

sure, just as do compassionate communists, compassionate atheists, compassionate capitalists etc.

Robert Taylor doesn't strike me as one though: his constant attacks on the poor and underprivelaged without equal condemnation of abusive wealthy and privelaged indicates that he is not actually compassionate for any but his own, just that he has an agenda best covered by the propagandist term "compassionate conservatism".

I can't speak for Robert, but I find the uber-rich just as annoying as the destitute, just with better accessories

[Flatcap]

if you would like to debate this with Helen herself, she is manning her caravan round the corner at the Sandringham shops as I type.....

[Pussy]

So do compassionate conservatives really exist in the literal sense rather than the propagandist?

sure, just as do compassionate communists, compassionate atheists, compassionate capitalists etc.

Robert Taylor doesn't strike me as one though: his constant attacks on the poor and underprivelaged without equal condemnation of abusive wealthy and privelaged indicates that he is not actually compassionate for any but his own, just that he has an agenda best covered by the propagandist term "compassionate conservatism".

Do you know Robert Taylor?
I first met/had dealings with Robert circa 1998, when he was VERY early in the process of getting his business growing. He was easy to find... he was ALWAYS at work, I have spoken to him on the phone at 2330hrs, you guessed it.. at work!
The attack on Robert's "wealth" is VERY unfounded. He has done what most successful kiwis have done... got off his arse and worked his butt off to get where he's got, not sat back and expected a free lunch. No-one has handed Robert anything, he's earned it.
Over the years I think it's reasonably safe to say that I have developed a friendship with Robert, initially through professional dealings. We have had many discussions. I can quite categorically assure you that Robert is NO FASCIST. Him and I share similar views... I have no problem whatsoever giving anyone who needs it a hand up... but the handout socialist regime is buggering this country.
Before you attack my social standing or profession, I chose to be an agricultural pilot from a very young age, and through WORKING at my trade and getting off my arse, I achieved my goal. No student loan for this kid, I paid for it all as I went.
You seem to take a dictatorial attitude to anyone who doesnt embrace your propoganda. I respect anyone else's opinion, no matter how un-informed it is.

[Mully]

if you would like to debate this with Helen herself, she is manning her caravan round the corner at the Sandringham shops as I type.....

Well, what else would Helen be doing with it??

[idleidolidyll]

Yes, the GOP and the current yank admisistration have labelled themselves as 'Compassionate Conservatives'

Here's some news from their latest 'victories':



UNHCR Iraq Situation: Supplementary Appeal 2008 (January 2, 2008)
According to this report by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), more than 4 million Iraqis are currently displaced from their homes, including 2.2 million inside of Iraq and up to 2 million refugees. Neighboring countries are restricting Iraqis right of entrance and those already resettled are unable to gain the residency status to work. Although UNHCR is implementing changes to reduce assistance wait times, Iraqi refugees must often wait up to two months after registering to receive any help.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unindex.htm#unhcriraq (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=208494026&u=2141147)

at least they're not amongst the millions dead since the Bush's started killing Iraqis; compassionate eh?!


Letter to the Security Council on MNF Detention Practices in Iraq (April 28, 2008)
This Human Rights Watch (HRW) letter to UN Security Council members expresses concern that the Council-mandated Multinational Force is holding a large number of detainees in Iraq for lengthy periods without judicial review. HRW calls on the Security Council to "insist" that MNF practices conform to international human rights law.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/torture/2008/0428hrwletter.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=208494026&u=2141144)
Human rights? No thanks, were compassionate conservatives....................

[idleidolidyll]

Well here's one way..................

Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand (April 20, 2008)
New York Times reveals that the Pentagon groomed a 'media Trojan horse' of retired military generals to appear as "objective" specialists in mass media and shape public perceptions in favor of the administration's terrorism policy. Many of these "analysts," which Fox News, NBC and CNN employed, worked as lobbyists for military contractors and held positions at defense firms that sought Pentagon contracts. This article argues that an "implicit trade of privileged access for favorable coverage" between military analysts and Department of Defense has destroyed the dividing line between government and journalism.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/media/2008/0420hiddenhand.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=208494026&u=2141154)

[idleidolidyll]

These guys and those like them do. In fact they use that funding to pulll the strings of policy..................

Monsanto's Harvest of Fear (May 2008)
Monsanto, originally a chemical giant with a dubious environmental and public health record, has recast itself as an "agricultural company" with a mission to "make the world a better place for future generations." Monsanto claims that its genetically modified (GM) seeds can improve crop productivity, "alleviate poverty, and feed the hungry." This article discusses the company's aggressive efforts to maintain its monopoly in the global seed market and consequently, its enormous control over world food supply. (Vanity Fair)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/trade/gmos/2008/05harvestfear.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=208494026&u=2141159)

desite their new found social conscience, if you trust abusers like this, you're asked to be ass fukked. By the way, on social and political indicies, National is a wannabee GOP.

[idleidolidyll]

Of course it bloody hasn't, globalisation was always a policy wrapped in compassionate conservatism designed to fuck over the underprivelaged in favour of the well heeled.

both labour and even more so national have signed up to this farce

Spreading the Benefits of Globalization (March 26, 2008)
Increasingly, the public, economists and development analysts are questioning whether globalization has delivered on its "promised benefits." Various reports show a trend of increased inequality in the world, between the North and the South, but also within both poor and rich nations. The author concludes that a tiny group at the top of global society reaps the rewards of globalization, while the vast majority of people miss out. He supports drastic re-distribution from the top down, such as increasing income tax for top earners, and eliminating income tax for those earning less than a given average national income. (World Economy & Development in Brief)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/econ/2008/0326spread.htm

[idleidolidyll]

"Compassionate Conservatives" have been screwing native people for centuries.

Climate a "Life and Death" Issue for Native Peoples (April 24, 2008)
During the 7th annual meeting of the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, indigenous leaders urged UN member states to adopt the "Universal Declaration on the Rights of the Indigenous Peoples" into domestic law. The UN General Assembly passed this resolution in 2007, but as this body is unable to make resolutions legally binding, many indigenous communities still have no formal rights over their territory and resources. Consequently, governments and transnational corporations harm native peoples, making extensively use of their lands and forests. (Inter Press Service)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/sovereign/sover/emerg/2008/0424lifeanddeath.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=208494026&u=2141166)

"Compassionate Conservative" is better identified as "do it our fucking way or else we'll kill you"

[Hitcher]

Is all this from The Conspiracy Theorists' Gazette?

[idleidolidyll]

Is all this from The Conspiracy Theorists' Gazette?

Do you have anything from the "Ostrich's Gazette" to offer in contradiction or is a logical fallacy all you can manage?

[idleidolidyll]

there's a link with the post, do i need to lead you through it as well as to it?

you can take a horse to water................

[Manxman]

...there is a link, and I followed one of them only to find that it was a UN article, not a US government/admin article (GOP) as you implied (post #106).

Surely a man of your cerebral fortitude realises that there is a difference?

OK, all of the technicalities aside, what is your answer Idle? All I have seen, is someone shooting down everyone else's solutions and observations, without proposing an alternative, which in my mind is ever so slightly annoying. After all, it is far easier to complain against the establishment (retrospectively), than proactively offer real solutions to the world's ills...of which there are many - caused by both extremes of opinion.

C'mon, I think a few people here would be interested to hear your stance on what the alternative is. Is it a world driven by the <currently> repressed nations, or a strict muslim lifestyle?

...a world where everyone is equal? Pfft.

I have drawn two broad conclusions (if I'm allowed to, that is), that:
1) Robert et al, are from the real world of doers, and
2) you are from the world of theorists/thinkers, which don't get me wrong is a not necessarily a bad thing, but only if you apply that theory to real world and make a positive contribution...

There's an election coming up in November:Pokey:

I sense my first red rep coming up in 3....2....1....

[Mully]

Yes, the GOP and the current yank admisistration have labelled themselves as 'Compassionate Conservatives'

If I was to label myself a fire engine, it doesn't make me a fire engine.

[Pussy]

If I was to label myself a fire engine, it doesn't make me a fire engine.

Quick!, someone call Norman an ambulance
















"Norman's an ambulance"

[Mully]

Quick!, someone call Norman an ambulance
"Norman's an ambulance"

"You must spread some rep, etc"

[idleidolidyll]

If I was to label myself a fire engine, it doesn't make me a fire engine.

Why thanks you

Tayor labelled himself a compassionate conservative; I suggest the same answer applies

the Yanks claim to be a democracy: I suggest the same answer applies

National claims to care: I suggest the same answer applies

[idleidolidyll]

oh dear manxman, just because you've missed all my suggestive posts doesn't mean they're not there.

in fact i've made many suggestions, given many examples and posted references and links to data so you can educate yourself.

please don't bleat to me if you missed it and don't for a second expect me to repost everything

[idleidolidyll]

Is all this from The Conspiracy Theorists' Gazette?

The same old bullshit seen so often in so many places: when you are unable to counter the information; attack the messenger.

I suppose you believe nothing that's not on Faux News, printed by corporate media or specifically endorsed by the propagandists you subscribe to.

Here's some help for you and others like you: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-oldliberalmedia.htm

yes, it's largely based on the Yank example but only fools and the propagandists themselves suggest it aint happening here too.

[civil]

....... but my goverment said it was ok, ..... and I was it on TV too,........ surely it must be ok becuase someone in authority told me so.

They wouldent lie to me,.... would they !!!!! :blink:

[Flatcap]

in fact i've made many suggestions, given many examples and posted references and links to data so you can educate yourself.


Nah - ignorance is bliss.

All the things you describe above have been happening for decades, and will still be happening long after we are all dead.

I would rather worry about the drainage in my back yard and fixing the spouting as I actually have some control over that

[Robert Taylor]

I can't speak for Robert, but I find the uber-rich just as annoying as the destitute, just with better accessories

I concur 100%. I do respect wealth if it has been earnt by sheer hard work, carrying people along with you, as opposed to wealth creation primarily by speculation.

[Robert Taylor]

Well here's one way..................

Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon's Hidden Hand (April 20, 2008)
New York Times reveals that the Pentagon groomed a 'media Trojan horse' of retired military generals to appear as "objective" specialists in mass media and shape public perceptions in favor of the administration's terrorism policy. Many of these "analysts," which Fox News, NBC and CNN employed, worked as lobbyists for military contractors and held positions at defense firms that sought Pentagon contracts. This article argues that an "implicit trade of privileged access for favorable coverage" between military analysts and Department of Defense has destroyed the dividing line between government and journalism.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/media/2008/0420hiddenhand.htm (http://ent.groundspring.org/EmailNow/pub.php?module=URLTracker&cmd=track&j=208494026&u=2141154)

Oh Im really sorry, there is obviously only one type of compassionate conservatism. I am so silly to disagree with you.

[Pussy]

Oh Im really sorry, there is obviously only one type of compassionate conservatism. I am so silly to disagree with you.

Have you taken time out from stealing from the poor and killing Iranians to make a post, Robert?

[Coyote]

Is all this from The Conspiracy Theorists' Gazette?
This is one of the things the Right does really well. Using 'conspiracy theory' to undermine opposition. Bundling all the 'greenies' nay-saying with all those 'snake headed aliens running the world' myths. If you take this celery eater's point seriously, you're just as bad as those who believe in Roswell.

Definitely a smarter form of belittlement than laughing louder than the opponent making a good point. It could ruin everything if people took the 'greenies' point into account, but luckily the general public are stupid and will disregard the comment since it's being laughed at. Not that they could hear much of it. Much easier than thinking of intelligent rebuttal.

Partly why I hate Labour since they're adopting the laugh in their debates.

[Coyote]

Have you taken time out from stealing from the poor and killing Iranians to make a post, Robert?
That's a gross over-generalisation you tree hugging hippy! Go smoke some dope.


Those that favour the right over here really have nothing to do with killing Iranians. Well not many anyway, a few of them are rich enough for shares in Northrop Grumman.

[Pussy]

That's a gross over-generalisation you tree hugging hippy!



Me a tree hugging hippy??!! Hahahaha, I'm an ag-pilot, mate, I LOVE 2,4,D and 2,4,5,T even


And the Green Party? I've said it before, they reckon they care so much about the planet.....and they're hardly ever on it

[Robert Taylor]

Me a tree hugging hippy??!! Hahahaha, I'm an ag-pilot, mate, I LOVE 2,4,D and 2,4,5,T even


And the Green Party? I've said it before, they reckon they care so much about the planet.....and they're hardly ever on it

Dont forget the napalm! More talk like this and you will encroach into the reading time of those who include in their library ''The life and times of Chairman Mao''

[Pussy]

Dont forget the napalm! More talk like this and you will encroach into the reading time of those who include in their library ''The life and times of Chairman Mao''

Rob, these interruptions are SERIOUSLY getting in the way of my re-reading of Mein Kampf. Please be sensitive to my needs :whistle:

[Swoop]

Me a tree hugging hippy??!! Hahahaha, I'm an ag-pilot, mate, I LOVE 2,4,D and 2,4,5,T even
And the Green Party? I've said it before, they reckon they care so much about the planet.....and they're hardly ever on it
Are you quite sure that you haven't been spraying the stuff the lunatic fringe (greenies) have been smoking?:devil2:
They have some type of brain damage...:rolleyes:

[Manxman]

oh dear manxman, just because you've missed all my suggestive posts doesn't mean they're not there.

in fact i've made many suggestions, given many examples and posted references and links to data so you can educate yourself.

please don't bleat to me if you missed it and don't for a second expect me to repost everything

Oh dear yerself. Don't worry about me matey I'm well 'educated' thanks, but I do appreciate your concern for us lesser mortals, which is duly noted. Well educated enough, that is, to earn a decent wage and bring up a family to the best of my ability, with good values. However, if you think I/we should be educated to believe the things that you believe in, then think again blue eyes...'cos you're sh*t outta luck.

Or let's put it another way...I can't be bummed reading through your previous posts (actually, I started reading from the start but soon lost interest. BTW, when did you start growing that massive superiority complex [you know, the type that comes with a hugely condescending attitude toward others, with an unfailing ego that never lets you think that you might be wrong...even when you are?], cos you started off sounding like quite a reasonable type of guy on, err, post #1, but it sorta went downhill and got real defensive real quick after that, ay? If I look out of my window here in Wgn and if it ain't cloudy, I'm sure I can see it casting a big all seeing, all knowing shadow off there in the distance to the north.:Pokey:

No apologies for the 'ad hominem'...I thought you would appreciate it, since you are a very good exponent of it (I had to research this one which, for the other underlings among us, means playing the man, not the ball).:niceone:

Sure there's all sorts of shite goin on in the world, but that's the human condition (have you researched the scientific evidence behind that little beauty) - it doesn't matter who is in charge/pulling the strings. Everyone's in it for themselves when push comes to shove. I'll say it again, it's the human condition and there isn't any amount of theory or scientific research that's going to change that. Let's say, for example, everyone signed up to the full remit of the Kyoto Protocol tomorrow, there would still be someone, somewhere, somehow, on the make from it. And would the climate improve? Or is this just a cycle...remember, the Thames used to freeze over only a few hundred years ago.

When push does come to shove in my world, I don't care if it's the oppressive corporates running the joint, purely because I'm not so hot on the alternatives of an oppressive religious/socialist (we're almost there...)/communist/facist/dictatorial/green (take your pick, and I'm sure there are others) regime. None of these would do any better, or worse, a job of it. Would you be so vociferous in your criticism if any of these were in control? Would you even get the opportunity to exercise your freedom of speech...

BTW, rest assured I won't bleat (I'm Manx, not English - sorry to all you sheep shaggin' POMMIES here :bleh::msn-wink:...just kidding guys, you're great), let alone expect you to repost anything that you've written on your 'Answers to the Universe' (which is 42...oh, no wait, new 'scientific research' now puts it at 65 http://www.dogsbody.org/news/ultimate65.html).

Goodnesssakes, it's takes me long enough to read and digest even the smallest of snippets of your theses (that's the plural of thesis...but you knew that, of course).

No offence intended, but if you took some, then, well: You're a kiwi - harden up man!

[Mully]

Tayor labelled himself a compassionate conservative; I suggest the same answer applies

the Yanks claim to be a democracy: I suggest the same answer applies

National claims to care: I suggest the same answer applies

Any politician claims they are acting in the public's best interest; I suggest the same answer applies.

If all politicians are just as bad as each other, surely we should be voting for the one which delivers each of us personally the best deal (precisely what Labour has been doing by creating more beneficiaries). Because I choose to work to earn what I have, my personal view is the mighty dollar - money (back) in my pocket.

I have health insurance, no children, a superannuation scheme and pay fire service levies on all my insurances (the Police must surely be nearly self-funding by now). If we were playing that game, I could surely argue that I should vote for a party that promises that I don't need to pay tax at all, as I get very little benefit from it.

Robert has defined his view of compassionate conservatism previously. While the US may claim to practice the same thing, I doubt their definition is the same as his.

[MisterD]

perhaps it is but if the public pays for it, the public should own it.
i have no issue stumping up with the money as long as it doesn't just mean foreign owned companies with no NZ social conscience get to make huge profits from our money by charging us for the very thing we paid for again and again and again

Don't you understand that we can't afford to do this on our own? $1.5bn is about 25% of what it is going to take...so private money will have to fill the gap, and yes, that means they will charge for services and expect to make a profit.

Crucially though, whoever owns the network and whoever supplies services on that network will be regulated, that's what our 25% buys us, control. Can you give me another model that achieves the outcome of a world-class communications network in time for us not to be left behind? IMHO, we either do this, or resign ourselves to becoming a "green" themepark and a museum of 20th century life.

I have one piece of advice for anyone that whinges about companies only having their shareholders' interests at heart - buy shares.

[What?]

... they haven't moved the threshold in years, so we have enormous "bracket creep". Since the last election 150,000 extra taxpayers have moved into the 39c bracket.

Quite right. And it needs to be addressed. Maybe by doing away with brackets, rebates and anything else that complicates, and reduces the efficiency of the system.

And where did I get my information from? Try www.oecd.org for starters.

[scumdog]

Helen Clark has announced that the petition for removal of GST on foods will not be considered by the labour government, instead stating that the government would address hardship through there working for families scheme.

Also, Helen Clark has announced that it will not block the sale of Wellington's Vector energy to a Hong Kong company. Wellington should be bracing for rapidly increasing electricity prices in the near future..

Also, Helen Clark is a proven liar.


Let's not forget that little bit.

[Jantar]

Also, Helen Clark is a proven liar.



She lied within days of getting into power in 1999 with the sole purpose of getting Peter Donne sacked. In the court case in 2005 where it was shown she had lied, she should have faced prosecution. But by that stage she had surrounded herself with sufficient corruption among senior police that she was effectively insulated from any comeback. Is it any wonder that so many front line staff who are just trying to do their job today are being tainted by what happens at the top? :oi-grr:

[MisterD]

:thud: Whoopy-doo, Cullen bought a trainset at only $200M and 50% over valuation...it seems he thinks he can run it better than a bunch of expert train-company running blokes.

Unions are happy (obviously) back to the days of 3-hour tea breaks and no commercial pressure to actually be any good at what you're doing.

All I can say is: Cullen you are a TWAT!

[Mully]

:thud: Whoopy-doo, Cullen bought a trainset at only $200M and 50% over valuation...it seems he thinks he can run it better than a bunch of expert train-company running blokes.

Unions are happy (obviously) back to the days of 3-hour tea breaks and no commercial pressure to actually be any good at what you're doing.

All I can say is: Cullen you are a TWAT!

Aye, lad. Union Rules. No heavy machinery operation before 0845h or after 0900h.

I read somewhere that when the government sold the railways, they were losing a million dollars a day. Is that correct??

[Oscar]

Aye, lad. Union Rules. No heavy machinery operation before 0845h or after 0900h.

I read somewhere that when the government sold the railways, they were losing a million dollars a day. Is that correct??

They were disguising 30,000 or so that would be otherwise unemployed...

[Mully]

They were disguising 30,000 or so that would be otherwise unemployed...

Ahh, makes sense.

T'was a bit young to remember m'self.

[oldrider]

Watch the antics of our politicians between now and the election.

Watch the strangest of bedfellows emerge in order to grab positions of power in the lolly scramble that follows!

Helen, Winston and Dunn raised the stakes a bit last time. :bleh:

I think that this one will be a real doozy!

Prepare to be amazed and watch for some interesting new players in the wings. (left of course)

Democracy anyone? :shutup: Enjoy, John.

[simonantz]

Well Its been nine years.... and im still fat.....so cant be that bad!! May be I need a few more rentals...yea thats the one!! :buggerd:

[Swoop]

:thud: Whoopy-doo, Cullen bought a trainset at only $200M and 50% over valuation...it seems he thinks he can run it better than a bunch of expert train-company running blokes.

Unions are happy (obviously) back to the days of 3-hour tea breaks and no commercial pressure to actually be any good at what you're doing.

All I can say is: Cullen you are a TWAT!

Damn right!
Cullen has proved, yet again, he is unfit for office!
What type of retard would purchase a trainset at a rip-off price, which requires MASSIVE investment in infrastructure, and will go back to being run in an inefficient manner.

Remember the days when it was common knowledge that "if you want the delivery TOTALLY destroyed in transit, send it by rail"?

[Cajun]

:thud: Whoopy-doo, Cullen bought a trainset at only $200M and 50% over valuation...it seems he thinks he can run it better than a bunch of expert train-company running blokes.

Unions are happy (obviously) back to the days of 3-hour tea breaks and no commercial pressure to actually be any good at what you're doing.

All I can say is: Cullen you are a TWAT!

Funny thing is, when it was sold all the land that was under nzrail was sold with it.

and with the government buying it back they did not buy back the land assets, only the rolling stock.

So now Toll is still a land owner of many of the places that these trains/ferry/trucks need to use to operate.

[Grahameeboy]

There's nothing wrong with the sale of the network, which has in fact previously been owned by a Canadian and then US based company...electricity supply is very highly regulated for both price and quality of service. The crowd that have bought it currently (no pun intended) run electricity supply networks in Melbourne and SA, so they do know what they are doing.

The inconsistency is with Liarbour playing politics. National, rightly would have allowed the airport deal...and Labour deserve to be shown up for the petty, shortsighted control freaks that they are.

Cheers for putting the perspective into the story....too many knee wobblers in NZ.

This Country needs investors and has a trait of putting them off with childish antics. So they should not complain when Kiwi's go to Aussie to "invest"

Gst on food...well I am pretty certain UK does not add VAT to food and te Family Tax credit only applies to those who are entitled to a tax credit, nothwithstanding it is an Income Tax credit and not linked to Gst.

I was talking to a friend last night who said her American friends are going back to America because it is just too expensive here...food etc...even petrol...it's 40% more here than in America...UK is 157% more than in America....Greece is 75% more than America so I guess we should be thankful for something....

Grass is still greener in NZ...

[Robert Taylor]

Cheers for putting the perspective into the story....too many knee wobblers in NZ.

This Country needs investors and has a trait of putting them off with childish antics. So they should not complain when Kiwi's go to Aussie to "invest"

Gst on food...well I am pretty certain UK does not add VAT to food and te Family Tax credit only applies to those who are entitled to a tax credit, nothwithstanding it is an Income Tax credit and not linked to Gst.

I was talking to a friend last night who said her American friends are going back to America because it is just too expensive here...food etc...even petrol...it's 40% more here than in America...UK is 157% more than in America....Greece is 75% more than America so I guess we should be thankful for something....

Grass is still greener in NZ...

Indeed the grass is still ( in many ways ) greener but we still need to comprehensively get rid of Frankensteins sister and Cheshire Cat Cullen. As you may well realise the council elections in the UK have just comprehensively dumped in excess of 100 labour controlled councils and the Conservatives picked up most of those. The poor old poms are undergoing the same sickness of mindless pseudo communist ''Government'' as we are. Given that Kevin Ruddiculous ( aka ''the milky bar kid' ) is in control across the ditch there isnt a lot of hope for the ockers either.

[jrandom]

labour controlled councils... Conservatives...

'Labour'?

Thanks to a decade's worth of Blair & Co sticking their heads up the American corporate rectum, British 'Labour' is further right on the traditional political spectrum than NZ's National Party.

[Robert Taylor]

'Labour'?

Thanks to a decade's worth of Blair & Co sticking their heads up the American corporate rectum, British 'Labour' is further right on the traditional political spectrum than NZ's National Party.

On that point yes but on other issues they are just as moronic as the outgoing ''government'' here

[oldrider]

Indeed the grass is still ( in many ways ) greener but we still need to comprehensively get rid of Frankensteins sister and Cheshire Cat Cullen. As you may well realise the council elections in the UK have just comprehensively dumped in excess of 100 labour controlled councils and the Conservatives picked up most of those. The poor old poms are undergoing the same sickness of mindless pseudo communist ''Government'' as we are. Given that Kevin Ruddiculous ( aka ''the milky bar kid' ) is in control across the ditch there isnt a lot of hope for the ockers either.

Labour have enough blind faithful, couple that with the Maori party and assorted ambitious odds and sods and "Bingo" Helen's back for an historic fourth term.

If you run away in disgust Helen will fill your space with friendly Chinese immigrants.

Helen has a plan and it doesn't necessarily include you and me! :shifty: John.

[Pussy]

Labour have enough blind faithful, couple that with the Maori party and assorted ambitious odds and sods and "Bingo" Helen's back for an historic fourth term.

If you run away in disgust Helen will fill your space with friendly Chinese immigrants.

Helen has a plan and it doesn't necessarily include you and me! :shifty: John.

Sadly, there is a HUGE element of truth in that, John. I suppose we can join Aussie biker when we get there

[Motu]

Helen has a plan and it doesn't necessarily include you and me! :shifty: John.

Unfortunately,if you stay here it does include you....fortunately there is no closed door,and you can leave anytime for anywhere.I'll feed your cat.

[Robert Taylor]

Unfortunately,if you stay here it does include you....fortunately there is no closed door,and you can leave anytime for anywhere.I'll feed your cat.

Talking about closed doors......... and open doors, I rather liked General Pinochets open door policy. Invited guests were the most unreformable marxists and it included a plane ride over the ocean....

[oldrider]

Unfortunately,if you stay here it does include you....fortunately there is no closed door,and you can leave anytime for anywhere.I'll feed your cat.

No use going to Aussie, they have got a mob of flakes just like her lot over there too now!

But you are right we are still "free" to choose whether to stay or go, well for meantime anyway!

Sorry no need to feed the cat, I will be taking the Tiger with me if I go! :ride: Cheers John.

[smokeyging]

Interesting about this rail bullshit at the moment, i wonder what other waste theres been that has’nt become public? if these guys want to burn money, shit we could do that for them, why should they have all the fun....
anyway highly unlikely this will happen of course, its there money is’nt it.....

[Dafe]

Interesting about this rail bullshit at the moment, i wonder what other waste theres been that has’nt become public? if these guys want to burn money, shit we could do that for them, why should they have all the fun....
anyway highly unlikely this will happen of course, its there money isn't it.....

Yep, At a time where many tax paying workers are struggling to meet the cost of living, The government goes and forks out a huge amount of money on buying back an excessively overpriced asset. What about some relief at this time for taxpayers that are struggling to make ends meet???
Isn't it also very interesting, that the high cost required to buy back the railways is somewhat more than the money involved to provide the long time talked about tax cuts for the taxpayers (Promised across 2 election campaigns and no sign yet). No considerations given to workers here.

After all, the railway is an investment for reducing our Carbon footprint. More people need to use public transport - So the government says, after buying their 50 BMW's!

[blossomsowner]

for the record heres some info about wff. I am married with four kids and we manage to live ok on one income. wff pays us extra each fortnight without which life would be a real struggle. So for some people it actually does help out. Most of our friends are two income faimilies who it makes no difference for at all. The big problem is that it locks you in to dependency on it. For us to be better off than we are my pay would need to go way up or my wife would need a high paying job.........so it does not allow free enterprise or a get ahead mentality.

for the record.........lets get labour out of gubbermint pronto. and get rid of petrol tax. and gubbermint spending on crap

[Grahameeboy]

Indeed the grass is still ( in many ways ) greener but we still need to comprehensively get rid of Frankensteins sister and Cheshire Cat Cullen. As you may well realise the council elections in the UK have just comprehensively dumped in excess of 100 labour controlled councils and the Conservatives picked up most of those. The poor old poms are undergoing the same sickness of mindless pseudo communist ''Government'' as we are. Given that Kevin Ruddiculous ( aka ''the milky bar kid' ) is in control across the ditch there isnt a lot of hope for the ockers either.

I hear the North Pole is quiet...plenty of space to dump your stuff...

[Flatcap]

I hear the North Pole is quiet...plenty of space to dump your stuff...

Nah - there's no land under there for when it melts....south pole has land and such

[Robert Taylor]

for the record heres some info about wff. I am married with four kids and we manage to live ok on one income. wff pays us extra each fortnight without which life would be a real struggle. So for some people it actually does help out. Most of our friends are two income faimilies who it makes no difference for at all. The big problem is that it locks you in to dependency on it. For us to be better off than we are my pay would need to go way up or my wife would need a high paying job.........so it does not allow free enterprise or a get ahead mentality.

for the record.........lets get labour out of gubbermint pronto. and get rid of petrol tax. and gubbermint spending on crap

Yes thats the sad reality, its perverse that thousands more civil servants have been created ( by definition many are paid beneficiaries ) to administer a great merry go round of paper and waste to hand back some of the money raped off ( predominantly ) middle income earners.
I believe we can have a fair society for all without creating a great big semi marxist juggernaut. Id go as far to say that many middle class people with a conservative outlook ( may I include myself in that grouping ) actually have more compassion for the plight of the working man than most of the voiciferous marxists out there.

[simonantz]

Thats why I ride bikes , to clear my head of all this BOLLOCKS !!!

[idleidolidyll]

now lets see if i can get this thing right:

although certain sanctimonious fascist conservatives can post personal attacks if they're weasels who don't have the cojones to offer the name of their target are deemed innocent by the minor demigods here (even though it's obvious who they're talking about)............. honest blokes who aint weasels identify the fascist abuse and name the perp; and they get pinged by the management.

so according to the reason given for the penalty by said unnamed minidogs, the bad bling was 'cause the reply was direct and not actually because the post contained a personal attack.

that given (thanks mod, you know who you are); this particular post, a post that doesn't name names, should be left up while any ad hom in reply will be sent to bad blingsville.

of course this IS a fascist state (KB), so free speech and fair play are less relevant than the minorsemidogs pre determined political toadying

[Flatcap]

now lets see if i can get this thing right:

although certain sanctimonious fascist conservatives can post personal attacks if they're weasels who don't have the cojones to offer the name of their target are deemed innocent by the minor demigods here (even though it's obvious who they're talking about)............. honest blokes who aint weasels identify the fascist abuse and name the perp; and they get pinged by the management.

so according to the reason given for the penalty by said unnamed minidogs, the bad bling was 'cause the reply was direct and not actually because the post contained a personal attack.

that given (thanks mod, you know who you are); this particular post, a post that doesn't name names, should be left up while any ad hom in reply will be sent to bad blingsville.

of course this IS a fascist state (KB), so free speech and fair play are less relevant than the minorsemidogs pre determined political toadying

I sense something is bugging you....

[Mully]

I sense something is bugging you....

Sand in the vagina, would be my guess.

And the mistaken (although he's certainly not alone in that) belief that KB is a democracy.

[Swoop]

More details of the rip-off to the taxpayer (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10509522). Cullen, you need to go.

[Hitcher]

And the mistaken (although he's certainly not alone in that) belief that KB is a democracy.

And the irony that the only person on the site who uses the term ad hominem (abuse) and who allegedly abhors its practice is its greatest practitioner.

[Mully]

More details of the rip-off to the taxpayer (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10509522). Cullen, you need to go.

What gets me is the smarmy git's responses when he's questioned about these monumental cock-ups that he presided over.

[Bren]

one solution to the problem....although I myself would not condone the action....

[Mully]

one solution to the problem....although I myself would not condone the action....

The bullet would be too scared to even try.........

[Swoop]

It is very nice to see the continuing ignorance of public opinion. The gubbinment is there to serve the people, not ignore any suggestion made.
The emissions trading scheme will be forced ahead despite public opinion. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10510954)


I thought liebour was "there for the people"?:buggerd:

[Krayy]

I just finished reading Ian Wisharts latest book, Absolute Power and am seriously pissed off about this "Gubmint" now.

Before the "usual suspects" start in on me, I did approach this book with a little trepidation, given Mr Wisharts track record, but hell if he's only half right on the events in the book, Helen and co should still be put up against the wall with blindfolds.

I for one did not agree for NZ to become a Socialist Republic with a strong feminist/lesbian agenda that has publicly denounced the concept of the traditional family unit in favour of State based child rearing. Also, a government that states "we will not recognise public referendums as we are always right" cannot represent the will or best interests of the people.

EFA be damned, I'll shout it from the rooftops if it would do any good, but as the majority of NZers are "sheeple" and will "vote for Labour 'cos my dad did", I still reckon we're f**ked.

[Hitcher]

Mr Key has promised to allow the referendum on MMP that this government denied us in 2002. On the basis, of course, that his party occupies the treasury benches at the end of this year.

[jim.cox]

I still reckon we're f**ked.

Yup :(

No matter which flavour of politiscum wins

[Manxman]

one solution to the problem....although I myself would not condone the action....

...me neither...on the basis that it would be a waste of a perfectly good bullet:lol:

[Swoop]

Good. They are already talking of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10511334).
Goff admits prospect of Labour defeat - report
11:42AM Tuesday May 20, 2008
Trade Minister Phil Goff publicly discussed the prospect of a Labour defeat at the next election, it has been reported.

[Skyryder]

Mr Key has promised to allow the referendum on MMP that this government denied us in 2002. On the basis, of course, that his party occupies the treasury benches at the end of this year.


There was 'never' any agreement for a follow up referendum. That is a myth that the anti MMP lobby has perpetrated ever since they lost the FPP. All that was 'promised' was a review by a Parlimentry select committee. This was carried out.

The review was flawed as some of those that sat on the committee owed their places to the MMP system and as such could not be impartial.

The simple fact that a second referendum 'was never denied,' as one was not promised in the first place.


Skyryder

[Beemer]

Fuck Helen Clark and her 'working for families' scheme - I'm self-employed, my husband works fulltime and we have no kids, so we get absolutely no fucking help at all. No community services card, no cheap anything.

If they halved the tax on bloody petrol it would be a big help for all of us - transport costs are probably one of the highest components in anything we buy now. And gst should be removed on all unprocessed foods - and alcohol!

[jim.cox]

- and alcohol!

There's no GST on home brew

And its better than half the crap pushed by the big business breweries

[Timber020]

At least Clark has a pair of balls, Key has yet to put his own line in the sand, hes just been reactive to whatever labour does. to me he seems weak.

I think its a case of to many terms in office, we want labour out, but I wonder do we really want national in? Im not happy with labour, but I dont think national has what it takes, I own a business and although they tend to be more business friendly, its normally at the cost of everyone else.

Might start my own party, but first I need to set up my own secret police and make a few lists.........you'll all be against the wall when the revolution comes, but do vote for me.....or else

[brendonjw]

I dont know how anyone can stand up for a party whose
Leader knowing and actively committed Fraud - Paintergate
Ministers - Physically assault people (Mallard)
Instigate illegal imgration (ok granted its still going through the courts but its not looking the best)
What was bensin pope accused of again??

Oh well, no wonder crimes are going up, our govt is encouraging and setting a great example......

[Hinny]

It is very nice to see the continuing ignorance of public opinion. The gubbinment is there to serve the people, not ignore any suggestion made.

Governments are not there to give the people what they want they are there to give the people what they need.
Public opinion is formed by exposure to, and influence by, the media. Perhaps that is why it is ignorant and should be ignored. Imagine public policy being determined by Fox News.

'All the Hollow men can do is holler'. There seems to be a lack of memory or denial of statistics from a great number of posters here. What is undeniable is the fact that the reign of conservative govts. in this country has coincided/resulted in periods of recession. Nat. party sympathisers may argue that Labour govts. have just been lucky in getting elected at a time of turnaround or cyclical change. I think we should stick with lucky parties. A masochist I am not. I have experienced too many periods of recession under Nat govts. and don't want to do it again.

And as for the suggestion we need another Rob Muldoon. FFS. Where's your sense of history?

If the railways were run so efficiently by private enterprise why do they need so much money spent to get them up to standard?

[Swoop]

Governments are not there to give the people what they want they are there to give the people what they need.
Bollocks. Any MP is elected to represent his/her electorate and the people within it. The people voted for that person, to do that specific job. The media [should] have fuck all to do with it (if we are honest) and the focus of the MP comes from the public.

And as for the suggestion we need another Rob Muldoon. FFS. Where's your sense of history?
THAT FUCKWIT?? He was a total and complete cunt who fucked this country over. Please point out where I have said we need rob muldoon. If I find out where his grave is, I will be taking a piss on it.

If the railways were run so efficiently by private enterprise why do they need so much money spent to get them up to standard?
Exactly. Only a bunch of retards would have bought a lemon at an incredibly high price. One more strike against cullen and the looney labourite sect.

[Hitcher]

Bollocks. Any MP is elected to represent his/her electorate and the people within it. The people voted for that person, to do that specific job. The media [should] have fuck all to do with it (if we are honest) and the focus of the MP comes from the public.

Bwuahahahahahahahaha! Ha!

Electorate MPs are appointed by their political parties and allocated to electorates at that party's whim. They are in Parliament to do what their party's whips instruct. The people did not vote for that person. They voted for a party with that person's name next to it.

And let's please not forget the tyranny that is list MPs. Elected by nobody, accountable to nobody. Even worse in the case of the so-called Green Party, where a whole party's-worth of MPs, elected by nobody and accountable to nobody, has significant leverage on legislation that shapes the future of our feeble nation.

Never forget that we need the media to ask hard questions and subject to some form of scrutiny or ridicule the efforts of some of these certifiable nut-jobs who pretend to be our elected leaders. Without them, who else is going to hold politicians to account?

[Swoop]

Never forget that we need the media to ask hard questions and subject to some form of scrutiny or ridicule the efforts of some of these certifiable nut-jobs who pretend to be our elected leaders. Without them, who else is going to hold politicians to account?
Definately required. There isn't any accountability to the electorate and the voters who put them into parliament, so the "media" are the only voice they listen to.

It would be nice if that wasn't needed and they did as the electorate told them to do.

[Skyryder]

Governments are not there to give the people what they want they are there to give the people what they need.
Public opinion is formed by exposure to, and influence by, the media. Perhaps that is why it is ignorant and should be ignored. Imagine public policy being determined by Fox News.

'All the Hollow men can do is holler'. There seems to be a lack of memory or denial of statistics from a great number of posters here. What is undeniable is the fact that the reign of conservative govts. in this country has coincided/resulted in periods of recession. Nat. party sympathisers may argue that Labour govts. have just been lucky in getting elected at a time of turnaround or cyclical change. I think we should stick with lucky parties. A masochist I am not. I have experienced too many periods of recession under Nat govts. and don't want to do it again.

And as for the suggestion we need another Rob Muldoon. FFS. Where's your sense of history?

If the railways were run so efficiently by private enterprise why do they need so much money spent to get them up to standard?

Good points. I have yet to see one of the reforms that work for the benifit of the general public. Health systems a mess, banks are all foreing owned with the exception of the Kiwi Bank. Power cuts are on the cards due to bad planning, roads are a mess with congestion.

We have an abundance of geothermal energy but Rodger Douglas in his wisdom got rid of the MOW and now there is no NZ expertise for New Zealand to develop this natural energy. We ban coal in NZ yet sell it by the boatload to Japan. Smart?

No doubt Labour has made some dumb mistakes but the Nats; all Kiwis can see is tax cuts, and Key is going to 'borrow' money for that. Now what sort of dumb move is that??

Imagine this man tree years down the track. You'll be paying road tolls within a year so that Key can put a price tag for privatisation of some highways to sell off on his second term. You do not have to be rocket scientist to figure out where they will be.





Skyryder

[Hinny]

banks are all foreing owned with the exception of the Kiwi Bank.


And TSB and Southland Savings Bank. What a fantastic job they do with their community support. So much better than shipping profits overseas.


roads are a mess with congestion.

Roads are a mess with road works everywhere. Apparently there is no more capacity available to do any more roadworks than is currently underway.
One good point for Nat there. They would no doubt return to their old ways and we wouldn't have all these bloody roadworks going on.


the Nats; all Kiwis can see is tax cuts

The Nats only had two policies finalised and published on their website in the final week of the last election and one of those two - forestry - they publicly argued over and issued three different opinions on it in the last week!
With the New Zealand public all they needed was one policy to nearly get them elected. They didn't even need an elected politician to lead them let alone a team to back him.

Almost by definition Conservative governments are not the ones to trot out new policy for the new age. They are condemned to follow the same old philosophy that has so comprehensively failed in the past. They just don't seem to be able to grasp that.
The thought of our children going off to kill or be killed to support that bunch of rogues in the White House is too horrible to contemplate.
Paul Wolfowitz (Architect of the Iraq fiasco) on David Letterman reckoned the Iraq invasion would be over in three weeks. When asked where the next country was that needed sorting out he replied that they had 50 lined up. The Nats no doubt would be sending our boys and girls a;long to support them. - read supply cannon fodder.

[Hinny]

the "media" are the only voice they listen to.

It would be nice if that wasn't needed and they did as the electorate told them to do.

Are you seriously trying to say that politicians should do as the media 'informed' public tell them by way of petition.
You must remember that the public do get a say at select committee hearings which are non partisan and the politicians get 'educated' through that forum and thence into parliament. That is the Westminster system and has been accepted as the best form of government to have.
To have the media inform the public and have the public form policy and then tell the politicians to go do their bidding is clearly unworkable. Imagine the public being informed by Granny Herald, Leighton Smith or Fox news. Get my drift? Politicians are generally well read individuals that care about the future of this country more than those who bleat about the woes of the state of the nation and the moronic behaviour of our elected leaders.
The place to vocalise your concerns is by talking to your local MP, writing to Ministers responsible for the portfolios one has concerns about or making submissions to select committees. Bleating in public forums etc. without bothering to do the necessary research benefits only those doing the bleating.
I am saddened to see the anti Helen Clark sentiment being expounded here.
Perhaps some of those folk who have been doing this might post their thoughts on who has been a better prime minister in the past and/or who might be a better prime minister in the future. Some reasoned argument for the selections should necessarily be made.
I am strongly of the opinion that 'we don't know how lucky we are.'
Will need pretty good tax cuts in compensation if the dollar plummets like it did under the last National Govt. From around US70 cents to the dollar down to 48 cents in the space of ten months. I wish I had held on to my Yankee dollars a while longer then, that's for sure.

[Swoop]

Are you seriously trying to say that politicians should do as the media 'informed' public tell them...

The place to vocalise your concerns is by talking to your local MP, writing to Ministers responsible for the portfolios one has concerns about.
You are contradicting yourself.
MP's have bosses. The bosses are the public, the voters.

Regardless of how the public have formed their opinion and decision, the MP is there to enact the wishes of the populace. An intelligent public will take all the information presented (including "fox news" as you say) then make their own mind's up.
Unfortunately this present Looney Labourite Sect has made the "publics decision" for them.

[Clockwork]

.... An intelligent public...

Where will we get one of those?

Yeah, I realise is sounds very arrogant but honestly; when you look at society as a whole the intelligence of its' individuals seems to struggle to percolate through all the bull.

[Hinny]

You are contradicting yourself.

No I'm not.

MP's have bosses. The bosses are the public, the voters.

That assumption is a popular misconception leading to people like yourself being displeased with the performance of politicians, It is irrefutably wrong.
You need to do a little more research on this topic.

Regardless of how the public have formed their opinion and decision, the MP is there to enact the wishes of the populace.
There you go again. hey are there to act on our behalf not at our behest.

An intelligent public will take all the information presented (including "fox news" as you say) then make their own mind's up.
That is precisely why your contention is incorrect. Politicians become much better informed than the general public via the parliamentary process.
Look at the performance of self called intelligent talk-back hosts who have tried their hand at being a politician. Pam Corkery for instance still ended up being a drongo imo.
Mind you I think that is a description some might make of all first term politicos and yet a significant number of New Zealand voters thought that a first term unelected person was fit to run the country at the last election. This year the Nats are putting up a similar sort of candidate. I think the top job requires a hell of a lot more experience and talent than any of that lot can muster.

Unfortunately this present Looney Labourite Sect has made the "publics decision" for them.

The country wouldn't be as well off if they were looney and making the publics decision for them is what they are there to do.
If you want to make decisions for the country then maybe you should follow my earlier advice. I believe even a cursory involvement may make you alter your views considerably.

[MSTRS]

If politicians can be likened to parents...they make decisions on our (the children) behalf, which are supposedly in our best interests. Right?
As children, we resented many of those decisions and couldn't see the sense of them. Right?
As children grow up, they tend to realise that parents did know best. Right?
The difference here is that we are still having arguments about many things that pollies have done in the past. That tells me that those pollies (of any/either colour) DON"T know best on our behalf. And as long as they treat us as children, nothing will change. And every 3 years there will be more angst over which condescending know-it-all to choose.
What will it take for the people to really have a voice?

[Swoop]

That assumption is a popular misconception leading to people like yourself being displeased with the performance of politicians, It is irrefutably wrong.
You need to do a little more research on this topic...
So, following your logic, we needn't even have elections. Just let the monkey's do whatever they wish?
Hell, they are doing that when they "pass with urgency" their latest payrise!

The country wouldn't be as well off if they were looney and making the publics decision for them...
We have had that already. The most recent example is the railway buy-back.
Another billion dollars wasted, but they will invent another gubbinment beauracracy to run it, and waste even more of the taxpayer's money. I wonder if you remember when it was gubbinment owned previously?

[Hinny]

If politicians can be likened to parents...they make decisions on our (the children) behalf, which are supposedly in our best interests. Right?
As children, we resented many of those decisions and couldn't see the sense of them. Right?
As children grow up, they tend to realise that parents did know best. Right?
The difference here is that we are still having arguments about many things that pollies have done in the past. That tells me that those pollies (of any/either colour) DON"T know best on our behalf. And as long as they treat us as children, nothing will change. And every 3 years there will be more angst over which condescending know-it-all to choose.
What will it take for the people to really have a voice?

The first part is certainly on the right track.
Politicians like parents are not infallible.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
As for removing the angst over which party to select then I would recommend choosing one that is prepared to stand up and say what they intend to do. With Labour's pledge card 'the people' were able to tick off each policy when it was implemented.
With National they just fudge and remain non committal.
Just look at the debacle over forestry last election. 'Yes there will be a return to Native logging....'No there won't be a return to Native logging'....'There will be some new native logging.'..'There won't be any more native logging than we have at present'..And this in the final week before the election and only the second policy on their website. They don't want to be held accountable. Power without responsibility.

What will it take for the people to really have a voice? Simply one has to get involved in the established political process. Talking to MP's and writing letters has far greater influence than most people realise.
Obviously taking the bad tempered brat approach of Tama Iti is not the way although it may be said the bad tempered approach of his supporters seems to have worked miracles for him thus far.
I would recommend the more civilised approach of merely following established practice. I am sure you have a better chance of getting satisfaction. It may not be satisfaction gained from getting what you want. That could be because what you wanted was not the right thing to get. Discovering that fact may be like an older and wiser child recognising the superiority of her/his parent's knowledge, experience and wisdom. One may gain satisfaction in discovering, shock, horror, that you did not, in fact, know it all beforehand.
Pleasure through disappointment! Is that a little masochistic? Is that the reason so many of our sports teams choke at the final hurdle?
I guess we will see where our collective psyche lies after the next election.
I hope we can all be winners. Of course winning is a perception and is no longer first past the post.

[Swoop]

Propaganda.
Do you have a poster of Heilen Klerke on your bedroom wall?

[Hinny]

Swoop, you do come across as a rather angry young man.
I suggest you take a pill and calm down.
Address the message don't attack the messenger.

[Jantar]

Swoop, you do come across as a rather angry young man.
I suggest you take a pill and calm down.
Address the message don't attack the messenger.

Hello Pot: Meet Kettle. :argue:

[oldrider]

Old mother Hubbard (John Key) went to the cupboard to get her poor dog (us) a bone.

When she got there the cupboard was bare so I guess the poor dog got none!

Investment advisers recommend diversification, Cullen never listened.

Never mind he will be back, NZ will be sucked in again! :rolleyes:

Congratulations in advance suckers, John. :whistle:

[Swoop]

Swoop, you do come across as a rather angry young man.
Buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha h gasp, cough, ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl:

That is the nicest, and funniest, thing I have heard all day!



Thank you Miss.

(I'm tempted to give you bling for that compliment, but since you only like red, it would be wasted).

[Hinny]

Hello Pot: Meet Kettle. :argue:
As long as I'm the pot, I'm cool with that.