Scooter pillion laws

[Romeo]

<!-- KEYWORDS:
pillion two up passenger moped scooter full car licence motorcycle bike motorbike learner licence 6L 6R 1L 1R LTSA laws
-->Gidday,
I was just researching about carrying a passenger on a moped. I was pretty confident that if you had a full class 1 licence you could carry a passenger on a moped. However I cannot find a single reference to this on the LTSA website.

I have a full class 1 and a learner class 6.

Does this entitle me to pillion a passenger on a moped?
Do my class 6 restrictions apply?


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OUTCOME:

<div style="padding:20px; background: #111111; border: 3px solid yellow">
EMAIL FROM Land Transport NZ

Good Afternoon <ROMEO>,

Thank you for your email dated 29 April 2008.

Legislation does not clearly state that the holder of a class 1 licence (of any stage) is permitted to carry passengers when operating a moped nor does it forbid the carriage of passengers when operating a moped. Where a licence holder holds both class 1 licence (of any stage) and class 6 graduated licence, legislation does not clarify which licence class must be used when operating a moped.

This legislative gap will be address in the Omnibus Rule 2007, which still has not been passed into law. The link to this Rule can be found on your forum.

The police may choose to ticket the person where they hold both class 1 (of any stage) and class 6 graduated licence if they are carrying passengers on a moped. If the driver disputes the Police's decision to issue the ticket, the driver can appeal through the Courts. The Courts will then decide the outcome based on the facts of each case.

The Police also have the option of exercising "constabulary discretion" and not issue a ticket.

Either way this is a decision for the Police as to whether or not a ticket is issued and a decision for the Courts as to whether or not the Police's decision is upheld.

Land Transport New Zealand recommend the individual comply with the conditions of the class 6 graduated licence. This will ensure they are full compliant with legislation - thus removing any risk of being ticketed for carrying pillion passengers.

I hope this information is helpful.


Kind regards

Senior Customer Service Representative
Contact Centre


Source: <a href="http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/consultation/omnibus-amendment-2007/proposed-amendments.html">Land Transport NZ: Section 2</a>
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<hr />

Cheers,
Romeo

[kevfromcoro]

Fairly sure you can on a full....
Scooter has to have approved back pegs...or somewhere for pillion to put there feet safetly

[hellnback]

Class 1 is for cars therefore license restrictions only apply when driving a car and vice versa.
Only things needed for a pillion are footpegs, helmet and rider must have a full class 6 license.
See here. (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/road-user-safety/motorcyclists/riding-techniques.html#passenger)

[breakaway]

^ What? Class 1 is car, 6 is bike.

[xwhatsit]

I became very confused reading the moped rules.

As far as I can work out, you can ride one on any license (well we knew that) -- but (importantly) it didn't mention anything about L/R etc. Not with reference to curfew, passengers, anything.

Can somebody well versed in the art of silly-speak translate it for us?

[xwhatsit]

Class 1 is for cars therefore license restrictions only apply when driving a car and vice versa.
Only things needed for a pillion are footpegs, helmet and rider must have a full class 6 license.
See here. (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/road-user-safety/motorcyclists/riding-techniques.html#passenger)
That's for motorsickles. Mopeds ain't.

[hellnback]

^ What? Class 1 is car, 6 is bike. ^ Fixed....

Found another link (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-other-road-users/information-for-moped-riders.html)
I could be wrong.... again
Doesn't say anything about needing to have a full class 6 license in order to carry passengers on a moped.....

[Romeo]

I guess you all see what I mean now. Does anyone know of a copper who'd know? If so, a PM might be in order.

Cheers,
Romeo

//EDIT: I've flicked an email off to the LTSA, though they say it may take up to 10 working days for a reply. So don't hold your collective breaths.

[EFFBEE]

Hi
2 things - 1. Mopeds are restricted to a max speed of less than 60 and are not supposed to carry passengers. You can ride on a full car or bike licence. They do not need to be regularly WOFed.
2. A scooter that is sold new that can do more than the limit above is classified as a motorcycle, has to be WOFed and can only be ridden by someone with a full, restricted or learners motorcycle licence. Only the holder of a full bike licence can carry a pillion passenger (legally).
:sunny:I think this is correct.

[Gubb]

Hi
2 things - 1. Mopeds are restricted to a max speed of less than 60 and are not supposed to carry passengers. You can ride on a full car or bike licence. They do not need to be regularly WOFed.
I'm pretty sure the restriction is on power (2Kw or under 50cc), and not on top speed. Also, as far as I can remember, Moped's don't need a WOF at all.

2. A scooter that is sold new that can do more than the limit above is classified as a motorcycle, has to be WOFed (see point 1) and can only be ridden by someone with a full, restricted or learners motorcycle licence. Only the holder of a full bike licence can carry a pillion passenger (legally).
:sunny:I think this is correct.

That part is pretty much understood by all.

But this puts you back at Square one. Sorry, I hope LTSA is helpful.

:woohoo::woohoo:

[Romeo]

Hi
2 things - 1. Mopeds are restricted to a max speed of less than 60 and are not supposed to carry passengers. You can ride on a full car or bike licence. They do not need to be regularly WOFed.
2. A scooter that is sold new that can do more than the limit above is classified as a motorcycle, has to be WOFed and can only be ridden by someone with a full, restricted or learners motorcycle licence. Only the holder of a full bike licence can carry a pillion passenger (legally).
:sunny:I think this is correct.

Well, unfortunately that doesn't exactly tell us what we need to hear.

You've said...
Case 1) It's classified as a moped (so what are the pillion laws?)
Case 2) It's not classified as a moped, so the motorcycle rules apply

If you have any access to the specific moped rules regarding pillions I'd love to hear them ;D!


//EDIT: I've just read through my '99 and '07 road codes, and both say "It is illegal to carry a passenger unless there is a pillion seat and footrests". Neither roadcodes state any licence requirements.

I assume the learner + restricted licence rule of "must not carry passengers at any time" overrides the above statement. Therefore since I have a full NZ class 1 drivers licence, I should be able to carry a passenger, without any restriction.

[Timber020]

I read that it was legal for a moped to have a sidecar or trailer, that way you could carry 3 others!

[Romeo]

I read that it was legal for a moped to have a sidecar or trailer, that way you could carry 3 others!

As far as I know it's legal for a trailer, but not a sidecar?! Go figure ;s.

[scootnz]

Proposal currently under way to stop mopeds carrying pillions anyway. Apparently LTNZ have noticed this grey area regarding car licence/moped/pillion stuff.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/consultation/omnibus-amendment-2007/proposed-amendments.html

Off topic: Notice under there a reference to adding 'tractor' to the list of vehicles on which a driving test cannot be carried out. "From time to time, a person presents for a test on a tractor. This amendment would make it clear that tests cannot be taken on tractors."

[Romeo]

Proposal currently under way to stop mopeds carrying pillions anyway. Apparently LTNZ have noticed this grey area regarding car licence/moped/pillion stuff.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/consultation/omnibus-amendment-2007/proposed-amendments.html

BINGO - you found it ScootNZ!

<div style="padding:20px; background: #111111; border: 3px solid yellow;">
As of the 14th of September, 2007...
"...Class 1L licence holders can carry pillion passengers..."

That's right folks, you can legally pillion a passenger on a moped, on your learner car licence! WTF...



Source: <a href="http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/consultation/omnibus-amendment-2007/proposed-amendments.html">Land Transport NZ: Section 2</a>
</div>

[Gubb]

Well done, now can you tell me where Wally is?

[HungusMaximist]

Ahh, so is this yes, people can carry passengers on a moped?

I get the feeling with a passenger on a moped, you ant gonna get anywhere very fast...

[scootnz]

I think you misunderstood.

It's not "as of September 2007".

That was the date that consultation closed on changing the rules that currently allow moped riders with car learner licences to carry a pillion.

So currently you can technically carry a pillion on a moped (if it has a seat and footpegs for a pillion), if you have a car learner licence.

[Romeo]

So currently you can technically carry a pillion on a moped (if it has a seat and footpegs for a pillion), if you have a car learner licence.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I was saying more along the lines of "At this date it was legal - so best you check yourself". I'll try and sort out my post though.

[xwhatsit]

I think you misunderstood.

It's not "as of September 2007".

That was the date that consultation closed on changing the rules that currently allow moped riders with car learner licences to carry a pillion.

So currently you can technically carry a pillion on a moped (if it has a seat and footpegs for a pillion), if you have a car learner licence.
What about if you've got a learner/restricted bike licence only?

[scootnz]

That would seem pretty clear and simple - on a learner and restricted
motorcycle licence you cannot legally carry a pillion.

If you had a car licence and were caught on a moped with a pillion, you
could possibly claim you were not breaking any rules. I don't know which
licence type would take precedence.

It seems that the rules for mopeds have remained unchanged for a long
time, while many changes have been made incrementally to motorcycle
licence rules (without anyone looking at the overall result) - resulting
in this conflict of rules, which they're going to fix soon anyway.


What about if you've got a learner/restricted
bike licence only?

[Romeo]

<div style="padding:20px; background: #111111; border: 3px solid yellow">
EMAIL FROM Land Transport NZ

Good Afternoon <ROMEO>,

Thank you for your email dated 29 April 2008.

Legislation does not clearly state that the holder of a class 1 licence (of any stage) is permitted to carry passengers when operating a moped nor does it forbid the carriage of passengers when operating a moped. Where a licence holder holds both class 1 licence (of any stage) and class 6 graduated licence, legislation does not clarify which licence class must be used when operating a moped.

This legislative gap will be address in the Omnibus Rule 2007, which still has not been passed into law. The link to this Rule can be found on your forum.

The police may choose to ticket the person where they hold both class 1 (of any stage) and class 6 graduated licence if they are carrying passengers on a moped. If the driver disputes the Police's decision to issue the ticket, the driver can appeal through the Courts. The Courts will then decide the outcome based on the facts of each case.

The Police also have the option of exercising "constabulary discretion" and not issue a ticket.

Either way this is a decision for the Police as to whether or not a ticket is issued and a decision for the Courts as to whether or not the Police's decision is upheld.

Land Transport New Zealand recommend the individual comply with the conditions of the class 6 graduated licence. This will ensure they are full compliant with legislation - thus removing any risk of being ticketed for carrying pillion passengers.

I hope this information is helpful.


Kind regards

Senior Customer Service Representative
Contact Centre


Source: <a href="http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/consultation/omnibus-amendment-2007/proposed-amendments.html">Land Transport NZ: Section 2</a>
</div>

SO, now I ask, wtf?

It's not technically illegal, but not technically legal either. So this is just bloody brilliant isn't it.

[scootnz]

I don't see any point in getting hung up about it - or do you actually want to carry a pillion on a moped?

[Ixion]

I think you misunderstood.

It's not "as of September 2007".

That was the date that consultation closed on changing the rules that currently allow moped riders with car learner licences to carry a pillion.

So currently you can technically carry a pillion on a moped (if it has a seat and footpegs for a pillion), if you have a car learner licence.

That is correct. It is an oversight. They wrote a law that forbade class 6L or 6R to carry passengers.

Then they wrote a law that said you could ride a moped on a class 1 licence.

But forgot that the class 1L rules do not explicitly forbid carrying passengers (as class 6L and 6R do) . Because in a CAR a class 1L must have a qualified instructor sitting alongside. So, in a car you can carry a passenger on a class 1L. Riding a moped on a class 1L , you are permitted to not have an instructor along. And they forgot to add "but can't carry a passenger".

Class 1F ditto. Class 1R, you can only take a passenger in a car if they hold a full class 1. Ditto for riding a moped on a class 1R. The passenger must have a full class 1 (not a full class 6. Duh ).

Absurd, isn't it. And we trust these people with sharp implements.

General legal rule is that which is not forbidden is permitted. So if you hold a full class1 you may take a pillion on a moped, regardless of any class 6.

LTSA are not going to come and and publically say that. Because it would mean they would have to admit that they have embarassingly cocked up.

Stupid ?Yes. Legal ? Yes

[Max Preload]

Then they wrote a law that said you could ride a moped on a class 1 licence.

But forgot that the class 1L rules do not explicitly forbid carrying passengers (as class 6L and 6R do) . Because in a CAR a class 1L must have a qualified instructor sitting alongside. So, in a car you can carry a passenger on a class 1L. Riding a moped on a class 1L , you are permitted to not have an instructor along. And they forgot to add "but can't carry a passenger".

Class 1F ditto. Class 1R, you can only take a passenger in a car if they hold a full class 1. Ditto for riding a moped on a class 1R. The passenger must have a full class 1 (not a full class 6. Duh ).

Absurd, isn't it. And we trust these people with sharp implements.

This (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/road-user-amendment/docs/overview.pdf) one is equally bad, yet amusing. Proposal 13 of the 'Land Transport (Road User) Amendment Rule [2009] Rule 61001/4'


"Subclause 6.8(1) of the Rule prohibits any person from stopping, standing or parking a vehicle within 6 m of a bus stop sign. The Rule does not expressly except buses. The proposed amendment will clarify this."

Note 'Proposal 20' also...


PROPOSAL. It is proposed to amend the Rule to require drivers of mopeds and motorcycles to use headlamps or, if fitted, daytime running lamps, during daylight hours.

I shall be making a submission regarding that as once again they're punishing the victim.

[Matt_TG]

Hiya

My daughter's friend has just been done for $400 for carrying a pillion with a 1L licence. I've pointed him to this thread and looked on the LTSA site and can't see that the Land Transport Rule: Omnibus Amendment 2007 - Rule 10003 has actually been passed.

I've suggested that he write in and challenge it - unless someone knows whether things have changed yet?

Cheers

[scootnz]

That may depend on if the daughter's friend was riding a moped (N) or a motorcycle (G).

[Matt_TG]

It's a moped... Sym something or other, no WOF required. It's registered as a moped and has room for a pillion and areas for the passenger's feet. I've written a letter to Police on the rider's behalf, we'll see how it goes.

[Aure]

Sorry to Necro, but I was wondering if there was any update on the laws - hopefully I can still legally have a pillion passenger on a moped with my class 1L license?

[Gibbo89]

Sorry to Necro, but I was wondering if there was any update on the laws - hopefully I can still legally have a pillion passenger on a moped with my class 1L license?

i doubt it...

[Old Skool Subbie]

Is there any truth to any of this?
A guy put it up on the Oldskool Car forum in the 2 wheels section
I hi lighted part of this...

Section 19B imposes a condition on the moped licence, which would be that drivers are limited to no passengers (even if the moped is a genuine 2-seater)

Thanks


Our mopeds in NZ are 50cc or smaller-engined 2 or 3 wheelers that do not exceed 50km/h and are not allowed on motorways. They have never required a special license to ride in NZ before. In all other countries a moped license is only required for riders who are not eligible for a car license because of their age. So the moped is seen in those advanced countries as a safer alternative to a car for younger drivers. For instance in Japan, England, Italy, France and Germany you can ride a moped long before you are allowed to drive a car. In these countries a moped license is also granted to any person gaining a driver's license or motorcycle license, as has been the case in NZ so far.

The Draft Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Rule [2011] would add Section 19A and 19B to the current legislation;

Section 19A would require all riders of mopeds to obtain a special moped licence which would involve a written test, basic handling skills test and be at least 15 years of age.
Section 19B imposes a condition on the moped licence, which would be that drivers are limited to no passengers (even if the moped is a genuine 2-seater).
The move to introduce moped licensing in NZ comes after a string of legislation changes and cost increases for us, including:

- increasing the annual cost of licensing a moped from approx $65 three years ago to $170 now

- adding a 'motorcycle safety levy' six months ago of $30 per year. This is levied by ACC for a programme that was not consulted on and has not been advertised since. This means that ACC has already collected hundreds of thousands of dollars for a 'programme' that they have not scheduled or given any details to moped riders for.

There are no concessions for moped or motorcycle riders even though we contribute to NZ's productivity by more quickly getting their riders between work and home, as well as producing far less exhaust emissions. Additionally by trying to price mopeds out of the public's bag of transport options, ACC and NZTA are forcing increasing numbers of people to more expensive, or more polluting, or slower methods of moving around our cities.

The 'NZTA Crash List Detail Report' shows that 86% of all motorbike accidents involved another vehicle while, according to the 'Motorcycle Crash Fact Sheet' again produced by NZTA, four out of five of the most common crash types have a significant majority of other vehicles CAUSING the crash (ranging from 96% to 76%).

Considering we do fantastic things for our cities and environment but receive no recognition for these positive contributions the draft amendment rule above is unacceptable! Don't let these agencies take away any more of your right to choose a better form of transport while blaming us instead of the real cause - uneducated, unaware car drivers.

Statistics from the NZTA's own Crash Analysis System (CAS) shows that, of the 283 crashes involving mopeds between 2005 and 2009, 204 (72%) of them were the fault of another party.
Of this 72%, 83% was "Failure to Look", "Failure to Give Way" or "Failure to Stop" - Basic fundamental road rules that we should all observe.

Given the drastic rise in popularity of mopeds in NZ (14,000 in 2004 to over 31,000 in 2009), and the statistics around who is at fault in the vast majority of incidents, we believe it is the other road users who need to be properly educated, and properly taught how to share the road. Defensive driving courses should be practical, and teach the real hazards people will face when on the road.

In a collision between a scooter and a car, the car will always inflict more damage. The driver of a car has more responsiblity for the safety and lives of others, and so should be the one getting more training. That's why truck drivers, captains of large container ships and cargo planes all have many more hours of compulsory training and testing than operators of smaller vehicles. We know government and ACC are trying to take the easy way out here, and we know we can do something about it. Sign up now, its free and its your right!


http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/no-moped-licence-nz/

[Max Preload]

Is there any truth to any of this?
A guy put it up on the Oldskool Car forum in the 2 wheels section
I hi lighted part of this...

Section 19B imposes a condition on the moped licence, which would be that drivers are limited to no passengers (even if the moped is a genuine 2-seater)

ThanksIt's correct. See here (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/driver-licensing-amendment-2011/docs/draft-driver-licensing-amendment-2011.pdf). But only applies to someone who holds a Class 6M, not full Class 6.

[Spearfish]

If you have a FULL motorcycle licence to carry passengers on any motorbike or moped capable of carrying passengers.
You CAN'T carry passengers if you have a car licence (at any level) or a bike licence at ANY LEVEL OTHER THAN FULL on a moped capable of carrying passengers.

You cant use a side-car either. lol

[GOONR]

If you have a FULL motorcycle licence to carry passengers on any motorbike or moped capable of carrying passengers.
You CAN'T carry passengers if you have a car licence (at any level) or a bike licence at ANY LEVEL OTHER THAN FULL on a moped capable of carrying passengers.

You cant use a side-car either. lol

What about a trike, or does that depend on how it has been registered?

[Max Preload]

What about a trike, or does that depend on how it has been registered?Correct.

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