Design project

[Alby_Joe]

Hi everyone, I'm a final year student from Massey University Design school in Albany, and I am looking to everyone on Kiwi Biker to provide me with some answers to some basic questions I have. My project is a commuter vehicle.

These are the questions:

Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?

OR

Q2: What is your reason for using a scooter over a motorcycle as your main form of two-wheeled transport?


There is no right or wrong answer so just write in the thread which question relates to you and why. Help with this is very appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe

[kiwicam]

E-bike because i charge it at work and the boss pays .

Also because i laugh my ass off every time i ride past the gas station.

Oh and dont need a licence or a number plate

[Swoop]

Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?

A. Simply because you look ghey trying to outrun the plod on a scooter (unless it is a very built up area with loads of narrow lanes...).

[crash harry]

Q1: (why I ride a motorcycle not a scooter)
Because I have a motorcycle, not a scooter
Because scooters are slow (assuming we are talking 50cc things here, not silverwings or bergmans)
Because scooters aren't allowed on the motorway - and my commute includes motorway
Some combination of actual performance and percieved performance (ie wank factor! - well, what did you expect, I ride an R1...)

Q2: (if i was to ride a scooter these would be my reasons)
Fuel efficiency
Cheap to own

[Alby_Joe]

Sweet, this is all good stuff guys...keep it coming.

Joe

[Magua]

Q1: I can't take a scooter on the motorway for my commute to uni.
That and I like to go on longer rides, which would not be much fun on a scooter.

[BiK3RChiK]

[QUOTE=Alby_Joe;1548868]

[B]Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?
[QUOTE]


I could never imagine let alone see myself on a scooter! Also, I do long rides and a scooter wouldn't hack it

[Number One]

Motorcycle over scooter?

Cos scooters are pusk! They are ugly, handle like shit and I use the motorway so whatever I'm riding has to be able to do 100 effortlessly.

Did I mention that scooters are ghey...:whistle:

[banditrider]

Can't get a 1400cc sccoter and even if you could it wouldn't be as involving to ride - it'd be like having a ferrari with a slush-box.

[Disco Dan]

See picture.

Cars frustrate me. The people inside them more often than not do not know what they are doing past "point and shoot". I do not want to be a part of that.

Motorbikes - the only way to fly. Anything less than a 1100cc super touring beast capable of almost 300kmph is like a life sentance.

I can carry almost anything I like on my motorbike, you get pretty good at tying knots and using rope that is never quite long enough. The few times i've needed a car, where only when my bike had broken down or I had it in bits for some reason.

I do anything I would do if I had a car, but faster, better and just plain darn cooler.

I would not be seen DEAD on a scooter. They are gay.



<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52361&d=1170146890"

[Jantar]

I use a motorcycle ratehr than a scooter for my 10km commute to work. 7 km of the ride is 100 kmh road. The bike has more power for cruising, handles better, and can carry more.

If my ride was entirely in 50kmh areas then I may consider a scooter.

Incidentally, it isn't illegal to ride a scooter on the motorway, just unsafe to do so.

[FJRider]

Scooters were why tinted visors were invented. So if you did ride one, no one would recognise you.

[FJRider]

Incidentally, it isn't illegal to ride a scooter on the motorway, just unsafe to do so.

Due to the fact they impede the flow of traffic (can't keep up). Any thing under 80 km's and the law gets a bit savage. I heard pink V Strom's have similar "issues". Might be wrong... often am.

[Jantar]

Due to the fact they impede the flow of traffic (can't keep up). Any thing under 80 km's and the law gets a bit savage. I heard pink V Strom's have similar "issues". Might be wrong... often am.
Yeah, you're right. VStroms do get a bit savage when they're held up by slower traffic (eg FJs)

However, if you check the road regs, there is nothing illegal about riding a scooter on the motorway, nor is there a minimum speed on the motorway. :rolleyes:

PS: lets see if there are more VStroms or FJs at the meeting on tuesday night. :D

[Disco Dan]

there is nothing illegal about riding a scooter on the motorway, nor is there a minimum speed on the motorway. :rolleyes:

Why someone would bother though..... :zzzz: :shutup:

[Jantar]

Why someone would bother though..... :zzzz: :shutup: Maybe because even a scooter would be faster than a cage at 5:00 pm any weekday. :devil2:

[Disco Dan]

Maybe because even a scooter would be faster than a cage at 5:00 pm any weekday. :devil2:

Fairy muff.

But a motorbike would be 10 times as quick :devil2:

[McDuck]

Due to the fact they impede the flow of traffic (can't keep up). Any thing under 80 km's and the law gets a bit savage. I heard pink V Strom's have similar "issues". Might be wrong... often am.

I think it is a case of there is not a rule banning them but taking one on would class as a careless act.

[Alby_Joe]

Ok, in regards to why people are turned off scooters, we have, so far:

- they look "gay"
- not fast enough for motorway use (assuming you are not including the big 500cc+ scooters or whatever)
- not as good handling
- lack of storage space


All these opinions are great, I have my own, but this "survey" isn't about me, it's about what other people want and see in the vehicles.

It would be interesting to see some more feedback from the scooter riders, I have put the same thread in the scooter section.

Joe

[FJRider]

PS: lets see if there are more VStroms or FJs at the meeting on tuesday night. :D

Not actually a member of "the club". I went out this arvo... didn't see ya. Parked up for the winter ???

[Alby_Joe]

I know there is a lot more scooter riders out there. Lets hear why you ride them or prefer to ride them over motorbikes.

Joe

[WarlockNZ]

Bike over a scoot as 95% of my commute is motorway and while a scooter would be just as quick in rush hour traffic, I wouldn't trust one to stop me fast enough when some idiot tried to run me over, nor have enough power to get me out of trouble.

Besides, i'll take the twin yohsi thump over the screaming blender any day.

[BM-GS]

Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?

Cos I grew up in a place where everyone got a 50cc scoot/moped at 16 and something bigger at 18.

Cos I used to commute >100km a day on roads with an official speed limit of 120kph but typical fast-lane speed of nearly 200.

Cos there really is no substitute for cubes!

------

Nothing against scoots, but on a fast or bendy road you can *see* the chassis flex. If I had an all-50kph commute I'd probably have one.

Just the way it went. It's also harder to tour on a scoot, especially when it comes to keeping up with your mates.

The ultimate commuter vehicle: probably the BMW C1, but that looked as cool as fresh dog poo... Cross it with the Piaggio MP3 and it might make it fun enough to have real appeal.

Good luck!

[madbikeboy]

Well, you did ask...

Is your research to determine projects - if so, then pick a motorcycle as a design exercise. There are a lot of incredibly neat engineers who have done cool stuff - for example www.hossack.co.uk (might be .com). Motorcycles have had slight refinements over the years, but the basic layout hasn't really changed markedly in some time (telescopic forks, swing arm of some description) - the evolution has been towards lighter, mass centralised, but with more powerful brakes, motors.

Scooters haven't evolved as far, or as fast. If you look at an early Vespa, as a design exercise it radically altered a city "motorcycle" and was perfect for the economic and social age that it was born into. The Vespa also created the first socially acceptable motorcycle for the masses. Most scooters now are a basic variation on the theme.

The are multiple crossovers between scooter, car, and motorcycle - notibly the BMW C1 - but because they are a compromise between all three, they became compromised.

For purity as a commuter, I would look at simple bikes that are more classic looking - they have a purity of focus that sports bikes (for example, the GSXR1000) don't have as commuters (too compromised if we're being honest).

Check out http://www.deus.com.au/index2.html as an example of a different direction in thinking.

Be radical in your thinking, most design studios are afraid of alienating their customer base - nothing radical is ever launched - think of the Ducati 916/996/998 series, replaced by a technically better bike (999), but because the styling moved too far, it polarised views). The latest 1098 is a poor design in my opinion, it's like they took all the noteworthy features of a 916, and then built it. Even Ducati have admitted that a single sided swingarm is a poor design compromise. Google Confederate and see something more radical (and simple).

If you intended a research survery, motorcycles versus scooters, then your reseach is going to be radically skewed as you will have considerable bias in your results. No one will admit to liking scooters on this site, it's analagous to admitting to keeping your daughter in your basement... (Yuck!).

[madbikeboy]

I was also thinking of specific feedback about scooters -

* Steering head angle is too severe, making them unstable at high speed.
* Wheelbase is too short, if you've got any power, they wheelstand all over the place
* Not enough ability to carry objects (ever try doing a weekly shop on a scooter?)
* Poor interface, the automatic ones are especially piss poor
* Step through principle works well for women wearing skirts
* Visually, a scooter is less intimidating for women
* Wheels are too small, this causes erratic behaviour, and tramlining
* Fuel economy is commensurate with horsepower
* Most are pig ugly

[Timber020]

Q 1, I percieve the use of a bike being safer as your not left behind in traffic and have the ability to get out of some differcult situations. And lets face it, horsepower is fun.
A bike allows me to travel further, faster, including having access to the motorway.

[camchain]

Scooters are phyisically small and therefore more subject to lack of consideration/attention by car drivers

Scooters have small wheels which don't track well over road surface variations.

Most motorcyclists correctly think scooters can't compare the beautiful excellence of what a true motorcycle is really all about. They're not cool, but design wise manufacturers are moving in the right direction with sportbike oriented design cues.

[brendonjw]

I currently have a cage, but will be going with a bike as i want something that will be able to do motorway speeds.

Friend has a scooter though, main reasons he got it

Cheaper to buy than a bike, he got it new for 2k or something around there
Cheaper to run than a bike
and he didnt have to fork out for another license.

[shafty]

These are the questions:

Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?

OR

Q2: What is your reason for using a scooter over a motorcycle as your main form of two-wheeled transport?

Although riding a 1300 (and my partner a 750) as our Motorcycles of choice, we both love the FXR125 as a fun commuter.
Main reasons for using it as a commuter:
- fantastic economy
- MAJOR fun factor - it EASILY does 100 km/hr (125 KM/Hr actually).
- Weather protection is another biggie, - if there is a light shower, no need for wet weather gear
- Easier parking: smaller than the ST1300, and I feel it is less vulnerable to damage while pared

Hope this helps Mate - good luck with your study

Shafty

[Caladbolg]

Come on guys.. we all know scooters are like fat chicks, Fun to ride but you wouldnt want to be seen on one.

[Alby_Joe]

Madebikeboy...Thats an essay you wrote there haha. Your first post goes off in different areas that are not really related to what my topic was about. You mention the custom bikes from deus (which are awesome machines) and you mentioned the Hossack suspension system which is old and if it was so good, why haven't major manufacturers caught on? I defined the questions loosely as a survey...it is in no way refined or proper.
I am not going to go into detail about the bike I am designing, its frame, suspension, engine, size, etc because then I will get everyone trying to give me design lessons and the point will start wandering, (which is not what Im after). The aim was just to get some ideas out, complaints, general thoughts on bikes and scooters.
Your second post brought up some good issues though.

I agree that it is all a bit one sided towards motorbikes...I'll post the same question on a scooter site to get some more views.

Thanks,
Joe

[Alby_Joe]

Thanks for the luck Shafty....

Scooters are finally getting some rep in this thread haha.

Joe

[scootnz]

I think your original question is flawed - your definition of "scooter" is being interpreted by motorcyclists to include what I call a "moped".

Moped: under 50cc, slow
Scooter: above 50cc (commonly 85, 100, 125, 150, 200, and 250cc)

I see this same shit being pushed all the time. No wonder there aren't many scooterists replying after all this negative feedback from motorcyclists.

Many of these scooters (not mopeds) are more than capable of motorway travel.
Many scooters have far more ability to carry large loads of groceries than motorcycles.
Many of the older scooters are not set up properly! No wonder the handling is perceived as so poor...often the tyres, suspension etc are setup by people who have no idea what they're doing.

Anyway, to answer the question: why a scooter, not a motorcycle?

I went out and bought a 125cc vespa 10 years ago, not knowing anyone who rode any powered 2 wheeler - and taught myself to ride (in Auckland).

I have had several other scooters since, all older (1957, 1959, now 1972) and ridden several others.

They are generally small, easy to handle, can carry lots of stuff, are really fun, attractive (classic scooters...), and when setup right have enough power to do what I need them to do. I have toured on them (Brass Monkey, Cold Kiwi, etc) and also commute in the city on them. I carried a pillion on a 180cc auto around the south island (2000kms) after he lost his licence.

I am interested enough in classic motorcycles to belong to the Wellington Classic Motorcycle Club, and I have a full motorcycle licence, but I'm not particularly interested in owning a motorcycle, although if the opportunity arose I would have a go at riding one.

[FJRider]

I was also thinking of specific feedback about scooters -

* Steering head angle is too severe, making them unstable at high speed.
* Wheelbase is too short, if you've got any power, they wheelstand all over the place
* Not enough ability to carry objects (ever try doing a weekly shop on a scooter?)
* Poor interface, the automatic ones are especially piss poor
* Step through principle works well for women wearing skirts
* Visually, a scooter is less intimidating for women
* Wheels are too small, this causes erratic behaviour, and tramlining
* Fuel economy is commensurate with horsepower
* Most are pig ugly

Severe steering angle gives quicker steering and high speed is over 50 km/h.
Short wheelbase means less space needed to park it.
SOME do have good storage capacity under the seat. MOST don't. Thats what hatchbacks were invented for.
And boys, and lighter. If it falls (blows) over, you can pick it up.
The "original" scooters had big wheels. Erratic behaviour can be blanmed on the rider. (any excuse is better than nothing)
100 plus km/l is hard to ignore (round town)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or if it does the job... cheaply...WHO CARES !!!

[Swoop]

* Steering head angle is too severe, making them unstable at high speed.
* Wheelbase is too short, if you've got any power, they wheelstand all over the place
* Not enough ability to carry objects (ever try doing a weekly shop on a scooter?)
* Poor interface, the automatic ones are especially piss poor
* Step through principle works well for women wearing skirts
* Visually, a scooter is less intimidating for women
* Wheels are too small, this causes erratic behaviour, and tramlining
* Fuel economy is commensurate with horsepower
* Most are pig ugly
I would also add that they are "un-noticed" on the road. They do not make enough noise to be noticed but 2 smokes at least let others know they are there by their "unique aroma and smoke screen"...<_<


Advantages that I like are the helmet storage spaces that are built in, and the Vespa idea of carrying a spare tyre. Nice.
Looks... Street Magic as a bare minimum. It says "do ya wanna have some fun?".

[Alby_Joe]

the moped vs. scooter thing is a good point. What I believe it comes down to is that people class anything as step-through a scooter and anything that they actually have to lift their leg over a motorbike. Mopeds and scooters both share that same step-through design. People still class the scooters as being slow, no matter what power they have and how much faster they are, because they still have the idea in their head that, step-through = slow. Thats what came to mind anyway.

Hopefully more scooter people will come in to offer thoughts.

[Alby_Joe]

the steering angle on scooters are perfect for their purpose which is commuting, darting in and out of traffic etc... probably best seen in their element in the emerging economies of asia.

[blossomsowner]

[QUOTE=Disco Dan;1549154]



I would not be seen DEAD on a scooter. They are gay.



exactly my thoughts.........i would ride a pedal bike over a scooter anyday and that is not happening anytime soon,,,,,,,,,scooter..be better off walking

[Oakie]

Reason 1) Because the first two wheeled transport I had was bigger than a scooter and I never saw a reason to down-size.

Reason 2) I ride a bike rather than a scooter for the same reason I got married instead of just masturbating for the rest of my life. (sorry scooter owners, no offence meant) EDIT: I'm talking the ability to many things rather than providing a function on just one level.

[Her_C4]

..... but I'm not particularly interested in owning a motorcycle, although if the opportunity arose I would have a go at riding one.


I am pretty sure I could help arrange that for ya' J, just give us a yell sometime :devil2::banana:

[madbikeboy]

Madebikeboy...Thats an essay you wrote there haha. Your first post goes off in different areas that are not really related to what my topic was about. You mention the custom bikes from deus (which are awesome machines) and you mentioned the Hossack suspension system which is old and if it was so good, why haven't major manufacturers caught on? I defined the questions loosely as a survey...it is in no way refined or proper.
I am not going to go into detail about the bike I am designing, its frame, suspension, engine, size, etc because then I will get everyone trying to give me design lessons and the point will start wandering, (which is not what Im after). The aim was just to get some ideas out, complaints, general thoughts on bikes and scooters.
Your second post brought up some good issues though.

I agree that it is all a bit one sided towards motorbikes...I'll post the same question on a scooter site to get some more views.

Thanks,
Joe

It was fairly clear from your questions that you're heading in the direction of what I gave you some thoughts on - you can listen to all the advice on what's wrong at a high level, or you can your point of view and look at what could be achieved.

The Hossack did catch on, but for a small, and almost unknown brand called BMW. They waited until Norman Hossack's patent ran out, and then they released the DuoLever. It's an excellent idea that provides some benefits over telescopic forces. Look at the Bimota Tesi 3D for another example of similar thinking. Good ideas don't necessarily catch on - if something is too radical for the time it is born into, the masses often don't get it.

[madbikeboy]

the steering angle on scooters are perfect for their purpose which is commuting, darting in and out of traffic etc... probably best seen in their element in the emerging economies of asia.

I've lived in SE Asia, they're certainly cheap, but there are a significant number of fatalities on scooters / step throughs. You tend to find mom and dad, plus a kid or two on a scooter (most families can't afford a car), and when the bike goes wildy out of control, they throw each family member in different directions (seen it for myself). A steep angle is a design flaw, you can relax the angle and still get enough steering speed and provide more stability.

I've raced step throughs on go-kart tracks, they wiggle more than a kid with ADD who just ate a load of sugar and food colouring...

On another point - yes, they're cheap and accessible. They're also incredibly simple - from a design point of view, they last pretty much forever in unbelieveable conditions; I've ridden a scooter in monsoon rain with raindrops the size of pebbles, I'd have parked a road bike under shelter far earlier...

[The Pastor]

I don't ride a scooter because i do not like ass sassauge,

[clint640]

Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?


Thanks,
Joe

'Cos scooters don't land jumps very well. :shit:

...& my motorcycle is a more versatile form of transport than a scooter.

Clint

[inlinefour]

Ok, in regards to why people are turned off scooters, we have, so far:

- they look "gay"
- not fast enough for motorway use (assuming you are not including the big 500cc+ scooters or whatever)
- not as good handling
- lack of storage space


All these opinions are great, I have my own, but this "survey" isn't about me, it's about what other people want and see in the vehicles.

It would be interesting to see some more feedback from the scooter riders, I have put the same thread in the scooter section.

Joe

I had the use of the Mrs streetmagic whenever I wanted it and I was allways riding around town as it was more praticle for what I wanted, it got through the traffic like butter on a crumpet. It literally runs on the smell of an oily rag, great for the petrol prices these days. The rego was only $72ish bucks for the year, try doing that with a motorsickle and it pulled stoppies so farking easy, just don't tell the mrs.:innocent::shutup:

[avgas]

Q1: horsepower, it feels good
Q2: because it had just sat there for far too long

[inlinefour]

I don't ride a scooter because i do not like ass sassauge,

Thats not what scatman was saying last week and the mormon boys was also raving about you. :confused:

[Biggles2000]

Mopeds, yes mopeds cause I call my Harley a scooter are for fat people who live in the cities and work in offices.

[The Pastor]

Thats not what scatman was saying last week and the mormon boys was also raving about you. :confused:
sorry im really tired from WALKING all day.

[inlinefour]

sorry im really tired from WALKING all day.

Ive got a spare WHEELCHAIR if its all too much but I dunno if you'd be able to sit down just yet. :buggerd: