AMA new direction - your thoughts

[Cajun]

The AMA's racing arm has been bought out by the Daytona Motorsports Group, headed by NASCAR's first family, the Frances. With a decreased emphasis on the manufacturer's adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday," and an increased focus on creating a great racing show similar to NASCAR, Hayes believes the sport is facing some seriously rough waters.

"It's absolutely crazy," Hayes said. "Next year, racing in the U.S. is going to be completely different. They want it to be a better show, like NASCAR, where 10 guys at any race can win. They're hoping that gets some of the NASCAR crowd to watch. But motorcycle racing draws a different crowd, techie geeks who argue about it on message boards. They're hardcore."

The biggest problem Hayes has with the changes looming on the horizon is the manufacturers will be shut out of the equation. DMG will be going to specification ECUs (engine control units), tires and fuel, each provided by a single supplier. Whereas now where the rules allow some diversity in these areas amongst manufacturers, this will fall by the wayside as AMA drops to two classes, one for 1,000 cc bikes and one for 600 cc bikes. Both will differ little from their street-going kin. Since he is a salary racer paid by Honda with endorsements from apparel deals (ARI helmets and TCX boots) and receives bonuses from Honda for wins, his normal way of making a living will be under threat.

"The days of going to a track and seeing a 200-horspower, fire-breathing superbike will be over," Hayes said. "Right now our series is about to do a 180. Right now none of our sponsors are from outside the industry. But DMG is not into selling motorcycles. They're into entertainment. One of my goals was to get a factory superbike ride and with all of the changes, that isn't going to exist."


Extract from a chat with Hayes about the changes in AMA racing.

Any thoughs/ideas?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah I've been reading about it of late. What a load of fucking crap.

The racers ALL want to ride the nastiest fastest thing you can get hold of, and it's what most people want to see.

It's not Suzuki's fault that Mladin and Spies have blown everyone else into the weeds for years.

To make the 'Premier' class 600 based is a insult to the racers AND the public.

Bit like trying to make the 125's the 'top' class in Moto GP.

[onearmedbandit]

Wow, looks pretty short-sighted to me.

[Ivan]

Bit like trying to make the 125's the 'top' class in Moto GP.

Probably could more bikes and better racing in it

[merv]

Time for another organisation to pop up and run motorcycle races methinks :rockon:

[JJ58]

Time for another organisation to pop up and run motorcycle races methinks :rockon:

The truth is that Colin Fraser (PMP + DMG) has been running succesful motorcycle races for more years than most of you have been into motorcycles..... That's the funny thing.

+ Remember, these changes for the "American" public.... Of course it won't make sense to the rest of the world.... It's like saying WWE and NASCAR make sense.

+ the biggest thing to remember is, how does this impact NZ? And the possibility of getting NZ riders recognised in one of the most competitive domestic series known, and with arguably the most $ turnover..... The outcome could be very positive for NZ riders.... depending on the final release of the rules of course.

[onearmedbandit]

The truth is that Colin Fraser (PMP + DMG) has been running succesful motorcycle races for more years than most of you have been into motorcycles..... That's the funny thing.



Maybe so, but running control ecu's, tyres and fuel isn't going to win favours with the manufacturers is it? The average guy watching won't be able to tell much difference, but how will Suzuki/Honda/etc feel about having that control taken away from them?

[JJ58]

I think the recent release on roadracingnews.com was evidence that they're not taken it well.

Spec tires and fuel are becoming more common globally, but the controlled ecu I'm not too sure about..... However if it provides closer racing the spectators would surely notice. The dominance of one team in the recent years is getting pretty boring.

I'll certainly be watching with interest to see how it works next year. It could lead to a radical shift in motorcycling, or it could be a huge failure, with the litre bikes remaining the premier class :-) Either way there are many pros and cons, but overall it should make some good spectating.....

Remember that the litre bike class will adopt the previously proposed AMA rules for 2009 (The sport has to change in America due to their economy), therefore there's been no real change for the litre bikes than what would've happened anyway, other than possibly spec tires, fuel and the fact they won't be called superbikes..... Manufacturers can still market the might of their premier sport bikes.

[JJ58]

I do laugh at the rolling starts :-)

[speed63]

the way of the future taking control away from the bike manufacturers and creating sustainability by catering for the spectators..

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm glad Mladin spoke out!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/18/SP5S10OG50.DTL

[slowpoke]

I'm kinda happy that a group with some marketing nouse has taken over as the AMA themselves have done a woeful job.

BUT, I've got mixed feelings about several other aspects:
1/ I like the fact that the bikes will be slightly more representative of what you can buy off the showroom
2/ I don't like dumbing down the bikes so that more riders are capable of riding them (as stated by DMG), rather than the cream rising to the top on the current monsters.
3/ 600cc Superbikes sounds like an oxymoron

[BarryG]

DON'T get me started!!!!!
The bottom line is that the 600's will be the 'premier' class, controlled horsepower, weight, tyres. 1000's will be allowed to race, but not for money/points/titles. WhaaaaaTF???
I think it's a complete cock-up, the end result of which will be no US riders able to catch the eye of anyone in GP or WSB, and ending a long illustrious line of US road racers who (I truly believe) rejuvenated GP racing in the early 70's.
IF Spies goes to GP next year, he may well be the last, unless someone like the Bonney kid, or a Red Bull kid, makes it up the ladder. Even if they do, it'll be no thanks to the US professional road racing scene.
Not that DMG give a shit about racers going offshore, that much is obvious.
OK, the AMA made a balls up of racing to a large extent, but it has muddled through and been on a par with most other national series. That will change, one way or another.
NASCAR on two wheels, anyone?
Cheers
Barry

[denill]

I think it's a complete cock-up, the end result of which will be no US riders able to catch the eye of anyone in GP or WSB, and ending a long illustrious line of US road racers who (I truly believe) rejuvenated GP racing in the early 70's.


Agree totally. Apart from the many other negative aspects this proposal will bring about - that is one of the most serious. :wacko:

How could any American possibly launch a career in MotoGP or even WSBK from that level?? :wacko:

No more KRs, Wayne Raineys, Eddie Lawsons et al. :bash:

Miladin has said he won't race in that formula..............:cool:

[svr]

I'm kinda happy that a group with some marketing nouse has taken over as the AMA themselves have done a woeful job.


What it is is a giant EXPERIMENT which will provide the motorcycle road racing world some interesting insights.
Giant dumbing down or inspired levelling out which provides access to top level racing unavailable elsewhere?
We'll have to wait and see.

[speed63]

Agree totally. Apart from the many other negative aspects this proposal will bring about - that is one of the most serious. :wacko:

How could any American possibly launch a career in MotoGP or even WSBK from that level?? :wacko:

No more KRs, Wayne Raineys, Eddie Lawsons et al. :bash:

Miladin has said he won't race in that formula..............:cool:

There aren't any merrykins in world superbikes now anyway even with the thous!

[cowpoos]

Daytona Motorsports Group's Roger Edmondson was at the Infineon round of the series last weekend and held an impromptu press meeting in the media center on Sunday. Below are his comments on several subjects.

On an upcoming rules package being released:

"I think that after taking the pulse several times we now have the direction we want to go but we want to try and give some more details. This process of putting a rules package together was never really intended to be public at any part. But events got away from us early on when one of the people we were consulting with went public. So we spent the last six or eight weeks or whatever kind of fighting this battle. Behind the scenes and in public."

"The constituency that hasn't really been consulted has been the promoters. It's one thing for us to have an idea but they still have to buy the product because they provide the theater to put the program on. So now that is the next step but I think that we are real close. I've got Colin and Bill working on the details of the rules. So I have been talking to promoters and talking about possible make up of their weekends."

"I've asked them (Colin Frasier and Bill Syfan) if we can have a set of rules that we can release next week. When I say "a set" it doesn't mean 'what is going to happen if you jump the start'. Technical rules and they might not be 100% detailed but there will be no mistake about the kind of things that we'll allow and won't allow."


"I think that we'll win them over with good competition and the fact that they'll come out here to a good facility and not know who is going to win until the checkered flag comes out. I think that's important. Is it possible that if we changed everything today that Mladin and Spies would win every race? Of course it is. They are two of the best riders in the world, let alone the US. But we won't know until we do this."

What will DMG-style events look like?

"We really want to elevate the look and feel of the weekends. We think it's important that the spectator have a closer connection with the bikes on track. The old 'Win on Sunday sell on Monday' hasn't been as prevalent as it could be, so we want to do a proper introduction of the riders and the teams. We want all the Kawasaki guys together for example and bring the fans out on pit road and let them walk amongst the bikes and the riders before we start the race. When the race is over I don't think we need three motorcycles in victory circle; I think we need three riders and maybe two motorcycles. We need the winning bike and the street version of the same side by side. So the connection between what just won and what you can buy is really unmistakable.

"There's a lot of different things we want to do."

"I like what they're doing right now (outside media center) with the interactive activity with the spectator. It shouldn't be like a play where you sit down at a point and time and watch the show. There should be a lot of things that you can do. So these are the things that we want to talk about."

Edmondson sent out a progress report to all four of the OEMs, but had not received a response from one of them. After saying it wasn't Honda, he declined to say who the OEM is that did not return the questionnaire.

"I think there comes a point in time when you have to figure people aren't interested and you just have to move along. I have done everything that I know to appear and be realistically cooperative. But I am not going to negotiate with myself and I'm not going to waste time with people who have no interest in what we are doing. I've got enough interested people that I need to spend time with trying to make this happen."

"This is not an indictment on anybody. When I was on Wind Tunnel, I said 'silence is acquiescence' so I am just going to assume that they are going to go along with it until I hear otherwise."

Will riders be able to race multiple classes in 2009?

"Both of the classes we assume to be the prime properties will require a Superbike license, so I would say that it is not inconceivable that top riders could enter all three classes on the weekend. But the support programs are really going to be designed for the up and coming rider or for people who are no longer racing full time for income but want to race. Like, we have Springsteen and Filice running in MotoST. MotoST will be at select events. Those are good guys to have. They're Hall of Famers.

I don't think you will have what you have today which is the flow chart that allows each manufacturer to pick their own playground so they figure they can win a championship there and ignore the rest of them."

Edmondson, who has long been a proponent of a spec-motorcycle series, said that it was possible there would be another spec series, in addition to the Red Bull Rookie Cup class.

"There's talk of one manufacturer of having a spec category. I think we need to talk to each promoter and see what they feel is important in their marketplace. But I am not planning any more products from us. I think again that the weekend is two days or maybe two and a half days and we'll see ... I'll give an example just off the top of my head. Some places in the country might like sidecars. I don't think Road ATL will be one of them but if the promoter feels it is and because we will carve out the activity time we need they'll need to take a look at what is important to their spectator audience."

Will promoters be able to add classes to their weekend as they do now, with Road America bringing three-wheeled carssidecars each year?

"When we come in with a Grand Am race we have a pretty standard schedule and then the promoter fills the (rest) of the time with whatever local or any properties he thinks are appropriate. So if we have RB Rookie Cup at select events and we have this new spec program at select events and we have MotoST at select events there will still be time for the promoter to look at other things."

Edmondson says that details of the spec tire series are coming as well.

"Tire program details will be released with the rules package."

"It's important for the tire company gets some idea either how much product they are going to have to give away or how much tire product that they are going to sell. Depending on how the proposals come back. The thing that everybody is automatically assuming about a spec tire program is that one company sells all the tires. Well if that is the case then that company is paying a promotional fee that helps the promoters and the series. The other approach is the NASCAR approach where the tire company comes in and pays a small fee, and provides product to the teams. So we don't know how that is going to manifest itself.

Same deal with fuel but as far as we are concerned we feel fuel is an inexpensive enough product that I'd assume this would be something the team would still buy."

DMG is trying to please several different entities by making fans, teams and sponsors happy. How will it balance out?

"I think we have to start by making ourselves happy by knowing we are going to deliver a product which evolves with its means and can build over a period of time build on things that all those things people are looking for.

Right now, I see people defending the current Superbike program like it's the Holy Bible. I look at a race yesterday that had 21 guys in it, about 12-13 real Superbikes in it. This from a country with 300 million people, I don't find that acceptable. And so while there are those that will vehemently say this is the way that God intended it, there are those of us who disagree just as vehemently. How do you balance that? Fortunately, for me, I am going to do something about it. I am going to try it out my way and see if its any better. It certainly can't be any worse."

[cowpoos]

On the negative repose to the DMG take-over and Mat Mladin's comments made on Saturday at Infineon:

"I think that the reaction is premature. I don't think anyone is basing their knee-jerk reactions in some instances on anything other than partial information. You've heard me say this: everybody wants improvement, nobody wants change. Any time you make change you are going to get a wide variety of attitudes. I know that there was some concern over Mat's comments yesterday. My response is that all of us from time to time make statements that include an extraordinary amount of arrogance, ignorance and intemperance. But that doesn't mean that they are arrogant, ignorant or intemperate people. It just means that at times emotion gets ahead of where we are. I think Mat had a tough day yesterday. He talked about second-rate rider ... does that mean the guy who finished second? Or does that mean the rest of the Superbike field? Or does that mean what he anticipates the Superbike field next week? I don't know."

"We're reading quite a lot of stuff about an American racing audience who is going through quite a lot of culture shock about this. But we're getting some letters behind the scenes from people who understand exactly where we're headed. And not all of them are Americans. We're getting some stuff from overseas that shows that we're not exactly the laughing stock."

On why 600s will be the premier class:

"I think there are a couple of reasons. One is that the tracks are not getting any safer and the amount of dollars to go to the continued improvements is pretty well dried up unless you get a guy who is just willing to do it, like Don Panoz is willing to do it at Road Atlanta."

"Each manufacturer can logically be expected to want to make next years model more high performance than this year's model. And there is no reason to believe that the creep in performance is not going to continue. When Superbikes went from 1025s to 750s that was the right direction. When they went back up to 1000s some of us believed that it was questionable. We most likely thought that it would go to 600s and we believe that it will everywhere else at some point in time. Even MotoGP slowed down, or at least they thought that they were going to. And I would not be surprised if you see further adjustments."

Will Daytona 600 Superbikes be the premier class, or will Literbikes?

"I think in the minds of the public, that they may think Literbikes are the premier class but in our minds we want to promote the Daytona Superbikes because it's the future. We recognize that you can't really change opinions over night. But I have to think that if we are capable of putting 40-50 Daytona Superbikes on the grid on a regular bases and we end up with several races where we have 5-6 guys racing for the win on the final lap it won't take long for people to understand that is the best racing, and that is really what this is all about. Competition is going to sell tickets, competition is what is going to allow sponsors to come in. People think that we're talking this way just because we're NASCAR. You've got to have sponsors for this thing to grow. And that's not going to happen if people can't win. Right now it's pretty clear that unless you're on one of those two bikes with those two rides, you can't win. Everybody is beating their head against the wall. They may have their day but that's not the basis to sell sponsorship."

On the much rumored manufacturer-led rival series:

"I would expect that would be a concern for them, not for us. We're going to march right down the road with the participants and promoters that want to hold our races. God bless them. This is America and they are free to follow their own vision. I know that a decade ago or fifteen years ago I was told by the Japanese that there was no way that there could be two series. So maybe they just don't want to run a series with me. That's possible. That's fine. God help them. I may be the catalyst for that."

"I asked them to provide four bikes each and it was like I had shot the Pope. So they want to start a series where they provide all the bikes? That's kind of a reversal but that's possible."

How will the hard-core racing fan be converted in this new era of US racing?

"I think that we'll win them over with good competition and the fact that they'll come out here to a good facility and not know who is going to win until the checkered flag comes out. I think that's important. Is it possible that if we changed everything today that Mladin and Spies would win every race? Of course it is. They are two of the best riders in the world, let alone the US. But we won't know until we do this."

"I think that when you look at these fellows like Barry Bonds who have all these home runs but have an asterisks, we don't have asterisks here but maybe if we factored in special equipment and special tires we might. So if we take away some of those special things we'll find out how special the humans are. I don't know that the results won't be the same. But I'd like to know."

[denill]

Hey Barry, as the 'man on the ground' so to speak:

1) In what direction do you think the premier AMA racing class will go? :weep:

2) Where do you think it should go?

Cheers
Bill

[Robert Taylor]

Maybe so, but running control ecu's, tyres and fuel isn't going to win favours with the manufacturers is it? The average guy watching won't be able to tell much difference, but how will Suzuki/Honda/etc feel about having that control taken away from them?

If you make everything too similiar it usually leads to boring racing. Toyota racing series here in NZ and A1GP being prime examples.

[denill]

If you make everything too similiar it usually leads to boring racing. Toyota racing series here in NZ and A1GP being prime examples.

Now there's a bloody good point Robert! (As usual)

On paper it seems to be that the ultimate formula for racing is where everything is equal, or almost.

But the result is - it's not! In fact quite the opposite?? (Will NEVER go to an A1 meeting again!!)

That thesis equally applies in the 250cc MotoGP class replacement debate.

Showing my age here! As a very young person at a Levin meeting saw a Cooper Norton battling a Maserati for the win. :drool:
Where one had a distinct advantage, the other of course did not. Yet the lap times were identical - so the racing was memorable. (Otherwise I would have forgotten it, eh.)

[Cajun]

well news out at moment is they are gonna do a 'litre bike class'

pretty much same rules that in wsbk, so at least the fire breathing 1000cc be still alive and kicking

[denill]

<a href=http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jun/080630d2.htm>Homologation?</A> :yawn: :yawn:

[denill]

Click on - <a href=http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jul/080702c.htm>It has often been said that Suzuki's payroll for just Mat Mladin and Ben Spies is larger than the payroll of the entire World Superbike grid!!</A>

[denill]

well news out at moment is they are gonna do a 'litre bike class'
pretty much same rules that in wsbk, so at least the fire breathing 1000cc be still alive and kicking

Where'd you see that Cajun?

[Cajun]

Where'd you see that Cajun?

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jul/080703z.htm & http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33116


Well-placed sources from within DMG say that late last night a change was made to the format that DMG/AMA races will have in 2009. These sources tell Soup that in addition to the Daytona 600 Superbike class and the American Superbike (formerly Liter Bike) series, DMG will also offer a class called "Factory Superbike."

Sources are telling Soup that "Factory Superbike" class will offer full World Superbike technical rules--and possibly not require spec tires!


what i don't understand is its coming close to 2009 already and they not got these rules sorted yet, how are half these teams meant to know if they neeed a 600/1000 cc for next year and try and get hold of parts

[Dom]

Pretty much everyone over here is waiting for the rules package by DMG to come out which should be hopefully by the end of the month. There is alot of people in the paddock I know of from factory riders to crew to the privateer at the back of the field that are waiting for the same thing, DMG to tell us whats happening next year so the manufactures can tell us whats happening next year. Not a scary time, but an unseen future for all at the moment and until DMG releases the rules, everything is just a possibility or a maybe.

Dom

[Cajun]

yeah would be hard for people like you Dom in the paddock

you just want to know what next year brings, so you can get down to the business had hand,

[denill]

<a href=http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Aug/080802d.htm>Kawasaki, Honda & Yamaha Pulling Out of '09 US Racing? </A>

[Cajun]

<a href=http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Aug/080802d.htm>Kawasaki, Honda & Yamaha Pulling Out of '09 US Racing? </A>

yeah i read that earlyer

and read a bunch of interviews with the teams, asking about next year, could be very interesting, espially the rumours of them starting up there own series are still ciculating

Manufacturer Reaction To The 2009 AMA Pro Racing Rules, Class Structure

Part 1: Ducati (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33461)
Part 2: Yamaha (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33462)
Part 3: Honda (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33463)
Part 4: Kawasaki (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33464)
Part 5: Suzuki (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33465)

[Cajun]

'According to Daytona Motorsports Group's Roger Edmondson, the deadline he imposed on the factories to commit to the Factory Superbike class passed today with no commitments from the factories. Hence the Factory Superbike class will not be a part of the 2009 AMA Superbike series, according to Edmondson.

Edmondson said tonight that DMG/AMA Superbike will have two Daytona Superbike and two American Superbike races at each round of the series in 2009 and a $200,000.00 purse will be split among the four races.

Edmondson is leaving for a cross-country motorcycle trip in the morning, one which will culminate at Infineon Raceway in Sonoma where Grand AM is holding a race also where he will meet with the new AMA Superbike promoter group.

Rumors persist that the Japanese manufacturers will race a series sanctioned by the Motorcycle Industry Council.

So that pretty much makes AMA have two classes, 600cc Daytona Superbike class, 1000cc American Superbike, with each class having 2 races at a race day.

[scott411]

http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12821


looks like Suzuki and others are planning another series, look at the damage the split did in open wheel racing in the US, they seem to be in a huge fight over this, sure will be interesting over the next few months,

[Cajun]

some interesting directions in the new eligible equipment list that just been released for the ama

'No chains, sprockets, triple clamps, windscreens or brake master cylinders listed
only one brand of rear shock: Ohlins.
Two brands in front: Traxxion Dynamics and Ohlins
Only non-standard wheels American Superbike are Marvics.
Hot competition in steering damper category sees Ohlins and GPR both represented. '


superbike eligible equipment
http://www.amasuperbike.com/assets/ASB_Eligible_Equipment_List.pdf

aka exhaust m4 (only)
ecu - bazz or pc3 (only)
stock cam/pistons only

Daytona superbike list here -> http://www.amasuperbike.com/assets/DSB_Eligible_Equipment_List.pdf

Supersport equipment list here -> http://www.amasuperbike.com/assets/SS_Eligible_Equipment_List.pdf

(please note that is the current list of mods that is eligible for AMA this year, there are more in pipe line, aka penske say they have lodged all the documentation & products and waiting to hear back they are confirmed)

[vtec]

I think the Nascar people could make a huge positive improvement. But looks like the manufacturers have started swinging their bollocks around and will stifle this attempt to make it a spectator sport. Knowing who's going to win every race is boring, and obviously due to unfair vehicle advantage.

[slowpoke]

Knowing who's going to win every race is boring, and obviously due to unfair vehicle advantage.

I disagree with the "unfair advantage statement".

Mladin and Spies are head and shoulders above everyone skill wise and have a fantastic team behind them. Honda have won the WSBK championship with their bike and despite slightly different rules should be more than competitive.

Jamie Hacking has shown how bad the Honda and Yamaha efforts have been by putting that mongrel Kawasaki, the generally acknowledged worst factory bike in the field, on the podium. Same goes for Yates on the privateer Jordan machine.

The best team has won and isn't that the way it should be?

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Well now that the 09 season is long gone and DMG has started making announcements for the 2010 season I figured I would resurrect this thread from the dead.

Seems like DMG really blew it in 09 and it doesn't look good for 2010.

[denill]

Well now that the 09 season is long gone and DMG has started making announcements for the 2010 season I figured I would resurrect this thread from the dead.

Seems like DMG really blew it in 09 and it doesn't look good for 2010.

<a href=http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Dec/091202purseinfo.htm>You're Right - It Doesn't Look Good:</A> :argh:

[gammaguy]

Bit like trying to make the 125's the 'top' class in Moto GP.


it is the top class

its the only one where the most powerful and suitable engine for the size of the bike is used,to the exclusion of commercial and market driven agendas .

That was the original idea of Moto GP .
It has slowly been eroded into nothing more than a showcase of perceived street available models(which they are not)racing round and round for the best return financially for all the vested commercial interests involved.
leading edge engineering and technology are being eliminated at every turn,in the interests of keeping racing close and exciting for joe public(allegedly).

The AMA changes are merely another step in this direction.

strike another victory for the almighty dollar,and another loss for innovation and bravery to try something different.

If John Britten was alive today(and i knew the man,so i am qualified to say this)i wonder exactly WHERE his machine would race on the world stage?the way things are going,the answer to that is:NO WHERE

maybe we need more bikes like his to bring innovation and ingenuitity back to the sport at this level.At the moment where is the incentive for anyone to even start?

rant over:sleep: