Australian stolen generation...

[McDuck]

Yo. A friends daughter is doing an assignment and would like some opinions, here is a copy past of the email so if you would like to help her out and give some info feel free :)




The Stolen Generation – is saying sorry enough?

Hello! My name is Charlotte. I am year 10 and am doing a Social Studies assignment on the Stolen Generation. This occurred between the years of 1869 and 1969 in Australia. It involved the removal of children of mixed Aboriginal and European descent from their families to integrate them into white society. It was thought that by doing this the children would grow up into better people and was done in the interests of child protection. They were brought up to believe that the Aboriginal culture was bad; they were forbidden to speak their language and taught that to succeed they needed to integrate with white European culture and values. The plan being that eventually the Aborigines would be “bred out” and become extinct as a people and culture in Australia. The suffering of the children and their families was on a massive scale, and many of the ‘stolen’ children also suffered from physical and sexual abuse and girls were often trained for domestic service.

In February 2008 the Prime Minister of Australia Kevin Rudd apologized to the Aboriginal people and in particular the survivors of the ‘stolen generation’ on behalf of the government. My question to you is: is an apology enough?

 YES, please explain you reasons.









 NO

a) why?







b) What would you suggest?


Thanks guys (and girls) :hug:

[98tls]

I remember the reaction on another bike forum with plenty of Australian members,the way they saw it Australia has been shelling money out for years to "ease there pain" and the very public apology was rubbish.Personally i dont know enough about it so wont comment but as i say the comments then were pretty much "when is enough enough".fwiw.

[mowgli]

Wow! A pretty heavy topic for a 10yo. MTCW

No, sorry is not enough. Right the wrongs that can be righted. Compensate the wrongs that can't be righted. Acknowledge the mistakes of the past and deal with them honorably. Only then will Australia be able to move on.

BTW I don't expect Australia will do the honorable thing preferring to apply band aids rather than sorting it once and for all. The reason I think this is that individually I find Australians are nice people. But as a country I think their racial prejudices run too deep.

[McDuck]

Wow! A pretty heavy topic for a 10yo. MTCW



Year 10 as in 14 or 4th form you you old people. She is also a fuckload better than me at cello :crybaby:

[mowgli]

Year 10 as in 14 or 4th form you you old people. She is also a fuckload better than me at cello :crybaby:

Haha that's quite funny. I'm not even that long out of school. Guess it shows much the twats in welly town have screwed with the edumication system. Spose I'll learn all about it when my girls reach school age.

Back on topic now. Wow! Pretty interesting topic for a year 10 student :)

[MIXONE]

We can't even sort out the Waitangi Treaty claims BS so what right do we have to comment on the Australian situation which is probably just as messy!

[mowgli]

We can't even sort out the Waitangi Treaty claims BS so what right do we have to comment on the Australian situation which is probably just as messy!
A fair comment perhaps but at least New Zealand is working through the issue. Relations between Maori and our Government aren't nearly as f^&ked up as between Aboriginals and your average Aussie.

[Boob Johnson]

No, sorry is not enough. Right the wrongs that can be righted. Compensate the wrongs that can't be righted. Acknowledge the mistakes of the past and deal with them honorably. Only then will Australia be able to move on.

BTW I don't expect Australia will do the honorable thing preferring to apply band aids rather than sorting it once and for all. The reason I think this is that individually I find Australians are nice people. But as a country I think their racial prejudices run too deep.
I lived over there for 3 yrs, was selling investment properties, traveled extensively, was in & out of thousands of Australian homes from all walks of life & from what I personally observed the Australian folk (in general) are very racist people still to this day & unashamedly so. I found it quite sickening to be honest. I really enjoyed my time over there but that subject & overtone came up all to often for my likings. Many things are dumbed down over there, quite brash & seemingly uneducated, I can only put it down to stemming from their convict roots.

[Boob Johnson]

A fair comment perhaps but at least New Zealand is working through the issue. Relations between Maori and our Government aren't nearly as f^&ked up as between Aboriginals and your average Aussie.
NZ leads the world in "righting the wrongs" with indigenous people so be proud of that record. We aren't perfect, as a nation could have gone about it better but it was NEVER ever going to be perfect (and what IS perfect anyway??) the fact that we lead the world in this area IS something we can be proud of :niceone:

The fact that Mr "I eat my own ear wax in public" Rudd has made this significant step is a HUGE deal. Just look at the turn out, the entire country stopped to it on TV, tears flowed, now you can't tell me that didn't have a positive impact :niceone:

Still got work to do? I would imagine so but saying sorry was a major hurdle not only taking courage but from a legal stand point courageous so deserves it's 15 mins of lime light IMHO :innocent:

[Conquiztador]

Decisions made in the past were done based on the information available at that time. Think about the surgery done in the 1800's. The surgery was perfectly done but the patients kept on dying. And they had no idea why. Now we know that it was as a result of poor hygiene and that the instruments were not sterilised between the operations. Pretty obvious to us, would'nt you say? But in those days they had no idea.

Similarily here (IMHumbleO). The white man came to Oz and found a bunch of savages. No clothes, living in huts, spears to hunt with, open fires. The white man had so much to offer them!! Civilisation, learning, how to build houses. And alcohol...

Today with hindsight we can see how wrong those arguments were. But in those days...

Also remember that then there was no phones, no fax, no internet. So information took ages to travel. If an azzhole of a white man decided to do horrible things to aboriginies, the chance of him getting caught was very slim. This clearly gave the opportunity for the less scrupilous (sp?) to do what they felt like. And keep in mind that many of the white who came to Oz were "undesirables" sent there from Europe. (Even something like that would never happen today, one would hope...)

Apology or no apology. Today we know better. We know that what was done was wrong. But there is nothing that can be done about the past. You can only affect the future.

So what would I do?

- I would make sure that the truth was told in schools re the past so nobody would grow up not knowing.
- I would make sure that what had been done to correct the wrong up until now was clearly researched and documented.
- I would involve the senior Aboriginies in trying to find a solution. Who better to solve their problem then them self?
- I would make sure the Aboriginies would be in the driving seat when laying out the future for their people.
- I would make sure that no financial restrictions were in the way of their ideas.
- I would NOT give handouts, funds etc. to individuals as a "sorry for what we did" as it would not solve anything for the future. In a few years all would be back to the same and the non-aborigine population of Oz would be even more alienated then today from them.
- I would encourage the Aboriginies to celebrate their culture, I would make sure all Australians would be proud of having the Aboriginie culture as part of Oz.
- I would make sure that the Aborignies who so want could study and learn so that they could take advantage of all and anything that is on offer today, helping them to become equal with the rest of Australia.

But most of all I would make sure that being an Aboriginie in Australia would be something to be proud of and that having the Aborigine culture as part of Australia would be something that all Australians would be proud of.

[Big Dave]

Many things are dumbed down over there, quite brash & seemingly uneducated, I can only put it down to stemming from their convict roots.


I reckon that is a load of bullshit.

It's 2008 - Socially/intellectually I find very little difference either side of the ditch.
They watch the same television, same radio, same newspaper publishers, same restaurants, same malls, same standards of education, same multicultural mix.

I can take you to a few west auckland abodes where the racism is thicker than any I've encountered before, too.
There's just 5 more of every type of person in Aus - good and bad.

[gijoe1313]

I've taught this as a film study unit at Yr12 level. If you need a film resource to contribute to your questions "Rabbit Proof Fence" is a compelling visual text.

Is a portrayal of a true story, which saw the children torn away from their tribes and parents and put into institutions. Sounds like quite an interesting assignment you have been given!

[Dargor]

 YES, please explain you reasons.
Yes, because the only other thing you could do is give them compensation money which wouldn't make them better people.

[McDuck]

Bump.........

[Manxman]

Off topic/

...I'm still waiting for my apology and payout after some upper class Poms sold us Manxies to the Crown about 500 years ago...:buggerd:

Mind you, it did breed out (most of) the 6 fingered banjo players, but not the 3 legs :cool:

...ding, ding, dingalingling :spudguita
On topic/

[tri boy]

Subject........................................... .................................................. ....
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........................ me and a bargepole.
Thats how close I will get to this.:mellow:

[jrandom]

Many things are dumbed down over there, quite brash & seemingly uneducated, I can only put it down to stemming from their convict roots.

Au contraire; having observed the same, I put it down to Australia being the fifty-second State of the Union.

(Britain, of course, being the fifty-first.)

I suspect you'd find that the Australia of a hundred years ago was much culturally closer to the New Zealand of a hundred years ago, with subsequent sociopolitical trends causing the divergence.

Of course, there's absolutely no point talking to an Australian about it. They're all dumbed-down, brash and uneducated.

:laugh:

[Big Dave]

I suspect you'd find that the Australia of a hundred years ago was much culturally closer to the New Zealand of a hundred years ago, with subsequent sociopolitical trends causing the divergence.



They are closer now that ever socially.
E media etc How many elite sporting competitions with Kiwi Teams eg.
How many Kiwis in Aus and then return?
To the point where the moan I get is about Kiwi kultcha being subverted. 53rd statewise.

[terbang]

Thats a tough one. I lived there for a while too (1 year in Darwin and 2 in Sydney) I also found most Australians very intolerant and derogatory towards the aboriginal people. It is racism and they really just don't want to know about them and seem to be quite happy to keep them up north, pissed and out of sight. Most Aussies that I knew down south had never really even seen a real (fair dinkum) aborigine and didn't really want to know either. The more educated ones made weak excuses, citing one or two success stories but had little contact apart from the buskers down Circular Quay.
Any comparison between NZ and Aussie regarding race issues would be flawed as we have a signed treaty that has at least forced the parties to talk, the Aussies don't and the Maori people and the Aborigine people are worlds apart. The only thing they have in common is that whiteys came!
NZ is light years ahead of Australia with indigenous people as they (the Aussies) have only just started to scratch the surface of a complete shambles that has been boiling away just over the horizon for a long time. From what I have seen, I would have no idea where they could start as its seems such a mess. Perhaps changing a few (white fella) attitudes is a good start, which is maybe what Rudd is trying to do. Though he's a politician so therefore can't really be trusted, but I do believe it is a step in the right direction. But it needs to be seen as one step to be followed by many more. As for compensation, if there were acts against aboriginal people that led to their demise (I hear horror stories about Tasmania), then an apology and compensation is morally in order. Just like we are doing here in NZ. However I also do tend to think that there has to be a cut off point because if you continually compensate for past mistakes as well (Marshall Islands being another example) then you will only produce a welfare dependant society. A dumbed down and unproductive welfare dependant society, going nowhere.

[McDuck]

Bump......

[Trudes]

We can't even sort out the Waitangi Treaty claims BS so what right do we have to comment on the Australian situation which is probably just as messy!
Agree

A fair comment perhaps but at least New Zealand is working through the issue. Relations between Maori and our Government aren't nearly as f^&ked up as between Aboriginals and your average Aussie.
Exactly

I've taught this as a film study unit at Yr12 level. If you need a film resource to contribute to your questions "Rabbit Proof Fence" is a compelling visual text.

Is a portrayal of a true story, which saw the children torn away from their tribes and parents and put into institutions. Sounds like quite an interesting assignment you have been given!
OMG yes, a very sad movie, but also very true.

[fire eyes]

The Public Apology was a momentous leap forward. It was a global acknowledgement of the governments participation of what happened. It was a responsibility and legacy incurred by the government regardless of how many years ago it seemingly took place. For those who were not directly affected by this experience of course it would seem like an issue that was prolonged in excess, however, for those whos families were ripped apart this goes a long way to restoring thier spirit.

If any of you know anything about Indigenous people you will also know the fundamentals of thier spirituality and the importance of spiritual healing in situations such as this. Money does not restore broken spirits. It is only a tool to reinstate confidence, re-educate and provide opportunities. Acknowledgment, ownership & acccountability ensures the healing process.

[Forest]

Sorry Charlotte - I'm not going to do your homework for you.

[McDuck]

Sorry Charlotte - I'm not going to do your homework for you.

A section of it is in regard to outsiders opinion.

[Hitcher]

Dear Kevin Rudd

Build a bridge.

[Lias]

Dear kid,

Sorry was too much, he should never have apologised in the first place. Then again its just another in a long line of cockups by the aussie government, if they'd done what they should have and exterminated every single last abo when they arrived in australia none of this would be happening. Please advise anyone who supports the apology to HTFU.

Yours,
Uncle Chopper

[nodrog]

who the fuck would want to steal an Abo in the first place?

[Dilligaf]

You know this subject pushes a number of buttons here. I’ll try and explain.
I was born and grew up in Australia. I was the last of the siblings and the only person in my family to in fact be born in Australia. Yet we did see ourselves as Australian.
I lived in Thailand for a number of years and we were friends with a German guy. I remember "doing a Hitcher" to him because rather than advertise his water on his menu as “still or sparkling” he had called it with gas or without gas. He made a joke about the water with gas being for the Jews. As you can imagine I was horrified that a German of all people would make a comment like that and I questioned him on it. He replied that all through his life at school etc, he was constantly told as a German, what happened in the war was all his fault. Obviously, being born a good 20 years after the end of the war, he took exception to the idea that he was somehow to blame.
Now going through the school system, we were constantly bombarded with the message that we as the “whiteys” were to blame for all the ills that the Aborigines suffer. And you know what? I reckon the reason why most of you kiwis think that we Aussies are racist (three words people – pot kettle black), is that you will find that many of us having only recently been in the country somewhat resent the implication that we are to blame.
You’ve got to remember as well like Terbang said, city slickers very rarely saw any Aborigines and therefore it’s not like here where you get to know Maori and see beyond the stereotypes. All we ever saw on the news was the houses that were built for them, and how they were trashed.
Now what pushes my buttons the most is the luxury of hindsight. I think that the whole idea of the “stolen generation” (emotive words much?) was good intentioned. Yeah yeah, the road to hell and all that. But apart from trying to remove the ‘weaker’ members of a group to protect them, how else do you change behaviour? (That’s a serious question, not a justification).
Quite frankly it’s a case of damned if you intervene, damned if you leave them to sort it out themselves.
There are also factors in how the Aborigines organised their communities. It took a long time for them to even get a voice as traditionally in their culture, there was never one leader in a tribe – they worked on an eldership rule – all community based. This of course meant that dialogue was hard to initiate as one person could not become ‘the voice’ of a tribe.


Functioning Aboriginal communities practice a complex system of community justice, with women as law-keepers and men as law-enforcers, enjoined to protect the young, anthropologists say. But today, many Aboriginal people "feel powerless to intervene in their own communities," says Atkinson. At the same time, "there is enormous pressure on Aboriginal women and children not to go to the police, not to report to the authorities," says Dr. Harry Blagg, an expert on Aborigines.
And official neglect apparently continues because of the sense, validated yet again in the Pascoe case, that Aboriginal men's rapes and beatings of Aboriginal women and girls are "traditional culture" that whites do well to ignore. Survivors' accounts of law enforcement officials laughing off reports of violent Aboriginal homes abound. In one community, police officers openly told Atkinson that they would do nothing about the rape of a 5-year-old Aboriginal girl.

(Oh and lastly, aborigine is the noun, aboriginal is the adjective).

[ManDownUnder]

No - it's not enough... but I think it's a damned good start. Nothing could replace those memories and that heritage those people missed out on but the state should provide them the help they reasonably deserve.

It needs to be active help - to show them how their ancestors lived, to give them the opportunity and choice to learn about those things they could never learn in non aboriginal households.

Nothing needs to be forced down anyone's throat, and the possibility of setting up an ongoing industry to resolve past grievances is not going to actually resolve anything. It's a no win situation so I suggest staying away from it.

It's not a monetary fix... it's a societal one.

I'd encourage those Australians so inclined to turn this on it's head as well. This could be a chance to deliver reasonable help to the Aboriginal community, to reinstate or educate the general Aussie population in those ancient ways and let everyone derive what benefit they want from it.

That's going to have implications in a lot of areas - from reinduction of the Stolen generation into the tribal ways, to bringing a greater general understyanding in the Aussie population to increased openness and resources for spin off industries (tourism comes to mind).

Short of going back in time there is no way of undoing the past, so clean up what's here and now, and look forward

[tri boy]

Okay, I'll make a comment or two.
First : as Dilligaf stated, the removal of children at that time was carried out using that era's approach to social engineering, and I'm picking it was done with good intentions. (argue this point as much as you like, what is done, is done).

Second: I can not think of two lifestyles more separated than modern Aussie lifestyle (whitey's), and the principle life style of pre European Aboriginal nomadic society.
I have moved in both communities, so feel that I can say this honestly.
The Australian people DO give a damn about the outback, and the native people.
It will take more than a couple of decades for this to get worked out.
Progress has been continuing for twenty odd years, (not that media will pick up on it).
I'm surprised the NZ education system has this on their curriculum.

[avgas]

I cannot comment as i am not a member of the stolen generation. But it seemed alot of them were just happy with the acknowledgment.
Seemed very big of them at the time.

[Big Dave]

I've moved in both communities too Tri Boy - in an urban setting.
I ran a YMCA with a Koori community nearby.

There's much more to the issues than doing a 12yo's homework.