About the only party I feel like going to...

[Mr. Peanut]

http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/

Libertarianz is the first and only political party in New Zealand committed to the concept of a free society with a free market economy. We are committed to shrinking the power and influence of government in every area of our lives. We will put paid to bloated government bureaucracy and its authoritarian inclinations.

[oldrider]

http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/

Libertarianz is the first and only political party in New Zealand committed to the concept of a free society with a free market economy. We are committed to shrinking the power and influence of government in every area of our lives. We will put paid to bloated government bureaucracy and its authoritarian inclinations.

Me too.

Hey, I sound just like like John Key! :shit: John.

[Mr. Peanut]

I would be apathetic about the whole situation, but I just can't be bothered...

As a young, hard working kiwi, I really like what they're about, at the moment I feel like I'm trudging through a treacle of beauocracy every time I open my front door. We need a political enema...

[Gubb]

Have to disagree with you on that one. I feel that certain things need to be run by the government. Like it or not, Welfare, Healthcare, Education, Transportation services are essential parts of modern society.

I agree that the Bureaucracy can certainly be cut down from where it is now, but we can't have an entirely "User-Pays" system.

[Mr. Peanut]

Surely the number of bleeding hearts who wish to contribute to private, charity based help will not decrease, and will be more able to do so, as they're less dragged down by tax, and benefited from the better economy.

One look at the public health system should tell you it's not working anyway.

[Gubb]

What if you get involved in a Motorcycle accident, with no insurance, and you are unable to work as a result of the accident. Should you be left to your own devices to rot?

[jrandom]

One look at the public health system should tell you it's not working anyway.

ACC works really well. Presumably you're excluding that? I certainly wouldn't want to see it done away with.

I do agree a shift toward a culture where people take personal responsibility for their health via lifestyle improvements and paying for their own medical insurance would be a positive step.

:yawn:

...

Ah, fuck all this careful publicity-friendly equivocation. Let's just agree that we all want a country in which I can pay sweet-fuck-all taxes and walk the streets smoking a fat doobie with a six-shooter on my hip.

Libertarianz for the win!

[Mr. Peanut]

What if you get involved in a Motorcycle accident, with no insurance, and you are unable to work as a result of the accident. Should you be left to your own devices to rot?

You get the best of health care, efficient, quick and professional. And a nice sum from your health insurance company.. You can afford that because you're not giving half of your money to the government.

And I didn't force you on to that motorcycle, if you're not prepared to take the consequences for your actions, yes you should.

[Gubb]

You get the best of health care, efficient, quick and professional. And a nice sum from your health insurance company.. You can afford that because you're not giving half of your money to the government.

And I didn't force you on to that motorcycle, if you're not prepared to take the consequences for your actions, yes you should.

So because I have all this extra money, I just went out and bought a Hayabusa that I can't ride. Which ended up in the aforementioned situation. No money for healthcare. I spent it all on the bike.

Or a couple has a mentally-challenged child. Giving that child a proper education costs many times more than what it does for an ordinary child due to teachers with special knowledge, and god-like patience. The parents are in low-paying jobs due to their own poor education, and this is exactly why they wanted their child to receive a proper education. I think it's a pretty awful society that lets people like this fall to the wayside.

If anything I personally wouldn't mind paying a little more in tax if I knew that it would solve some of the serious issues that our country faces.

[jrandom]

I personally wouldn't mind paying a little more in tax if I knew that it would solve some of the serious issues that our country faces.

Shut up. I want my six-shooter and my doobie.

Fuck the serious issues.

:girlfight:

[Gubb]

You can have the doobie, but leave the gun at home.

[jrandom]

You can have the doobie, but leave the gun at home.

OK, I'm prepared to compromise on that, so long as I can keep all of my six-figure salary without having to look at any starving and dying brown people, mm kay?

Cos I'm sure some other bugger's going to be charitable to them. Isn't there always some other bugger being charitable?

Edit: Hang on, no, I'm gonna need that six-shooter for when the starving and dying brown people escape the Reservation and head to the North Shore. No compromises, thank you; my policies are intertwined.

[Mr. Peanut]

So because I have all this extra money, I just went out and bought a Hayabusa that I can't ride. Which ended up in the aforementioned situation. No money for healthcare. I spent it all on the bike.

Or a couple has a mentally-challenged child. Giving that child a proper education costs many times more than what it does for an ordinary child due to teachers with special knowledge, and god-like patience. The parents are in low-paying jobs due to their own poor education, and this is exactly why they wanted their child to receive a proper education. I think it's a pretty awful society that lets people like this fall to the wayside.

If anything I personally wouldn't mind paying a little more in tax if I knew that it would solve some of the serious issues that our country faces.

Is self sufficiency such a scary concept? Under such a system, you'd be insane to buy a Hayabusa you can't handle, and then ride it without insuring your health...

Are you saying it's better to have a system where we go ahead and hurt ourselves, knowing we're covered by the nanny state?

Who provided the parents with such poor education? The government! Its unfortunate they're in poor paying jobs, but who forced them to neglect their education? Perhaps they expected the government to look after them when they partied instead of studying.

A close knit community, of people who have learned to look after themselves and those around them should better care for the needs of a special child than any under-funded state institution..

[jrandom]

Who provided the parents with such poor education? The government! Its unfortunate they're in poor paying jobs, but who forced them to neglect their education? Perhaps they expected the government to look after them when they partied instead of studying.

A close knit community, of people who have learned to look after themselves and those around them should better care for the needs of a special child than any under-funded state institution..

You're being a bit of a pussy, y'know, proposing that we just let the losers die off slowly.

Turn on the showers and fire the ovens, I say!

[Mr. Peanut]

If you think the average Kiwi would tolerate those in unfortunate situations rotting away, then it doesn't matter what government we have, we're doomed. I've never hesitated to help those in need when and where I can. But when I'm working 3 out of 12 months for the government, it can be hard to find the time.

[Gubb]

Would the vast majority of Libertarianz members be rich, white males by any chance? Because that's about the only group that could benefit from such policies.

[Mr. Peanut]

I can't think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from the removal of state money grubbing. Not just income tax; GST as well, a tax which disproportionately affects those with lower income.

And I'm not rich, I'm one of those low income earners that you're so concerned about, I work hard, and look after myself. My colour is irrelevant.

[ManDownUnder]

You're being a bit of a pussy, y'know, proposing that we just let the losers die off slowly.

OI aren't you forgetting something?

...you wanted to have a go with the WSM didn't you?

[Gubb]

Libertarianz fully supports the concept of a civil union and would also support allowing marriages between same sex couples, and indeed polygamous marriages or marriages between people who are already related

Thank god. NOW I CAN MARRY ALL OF MY SISTERS!

:love:

What could possibly go wrong?

[jrandom]

If you think the average kiwi would tolerate those in unfortunate situations rotting away...

Yes. Yes, I do. I think that the 'average Kiwi' would tolerate that.

<img src="http://www.dangheno.net/images/pimg57_small.jpg"/>

It is also my belief that the small minority who would not tolerate it will never be able to mitigate the problems of suffering and poverty without the weight of the law squeezing financial support from 'average Kiwis'.

You're a young fulla, Fumeux. How many years, do you think, would it be before you felt yourself wealthy enough to take some of your hard-earned money away from your wife and children and give it to distasteful layabouts, simply so that those distasteful layabouts would not starve and die, smelly in the gutters that you drive past?

Ten years? Twenty? Thirty?

Each month would pass, and you would think, "Others will take up the load. Next month, next year, I will re-examine my ability to give."

And the vanishingly-tiny few whose consciences overcame their own need for self-preservation would despair as they failed to make a difference.

No, sir, I'm afraid that the rule of law is as necessary when it comes to the prevention of poverty and misery as it is in the prevention of violence and dishonesty.


I'm not rich, I'm one of those low income earners that you're so concerned about, I work hard, and look after myself.

With respect, I suggest that until you have the means to bear some of the charitable load that you advocate leaving to the mercy of the general social conscience, you have no right to advocate such.

In the meantime, by all means look for new efficiencies in Government, but don't complain about the meagre payment you make into the kitty each month which allows you to ride down the street without seeing people dying in the gutter.

[oldrider]

So because I have all this extra money, I just went out and bought a Hayabusa that I can't ride. Which ended up in the aforementioned situation. No money for healthcare. I spent it all on the bike.

Or a couple has a mentally-challenged child. Giving that child a proper education costs many times more than what it does for an ordinary child due to teachers with special knowledge, and god-like patience. The parents are in low-paying jobs due to their own poor education, and this is exactly why they wanted their child to receive a proper education. I think it's a pretty awful society that lets people like this fall to the wayside.

If anything I personally wouldn't mind paying a little more in tax if I knew that it would solve some of the serious issues that our country faces.

We have a handicapped son! (now an adult)

If we had had our own tax money to spend on him he would have been better off but as it was, the government stole that money from us for their own purposes.

Of course they know best, we had to fight for everything we got for him and pay for most of it our selves and surrender the stolen tax money to them as well!

Thank goodness for the generous souls that donate their money (after tax) to the IHC etc.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, have a good look at the policies here: (www.libertarianz.org.nz)

Why should you pay more tax to the government, you can make the donation yourself directly to who ever you want to help.

The government usually stuff up the distributions anyway by giving to people that will vote for them rather than to those who you might think actually need it.

The older we get the more right wing our thinking becomes as we shed the socialist brainwashing that we are victims to during our government run school "education" program.

Government TV etc is the same, look at TV one news etc its like being in Russia or Cuba without the cost of travel.

Everybody collectively held back to the progress level of the lowest common denominator rather than lifting us to the level of the highest achiever.

I could go on and on but best you think for your self but please read with an open mind. :yes: Cheers John

[Gubb]

No doubt that there is far too much bureaucracy and PC-bullshit Red Tape in the system at the moment. As jrandom said, we're better off finding inefficiencies in the current system, and ironing them out.

By turning everything over to the free market, the only people that will be able to survive are the ones with the means to do so. At least now if people are born into poverty, they can do something about it. My best friend at University was only able to attend due to a Student Loan. He was born into a poor family, who were very uneducated. If it wasn't for his drive, and the Government helping him out, he would be doomed to repeat the Poverty cycle.

I don't believe that there would be enough people willing to pool their money together to set up a non-discriminatory student loan scheme. Or at least one that has relatively low risk to the person taking out the loan (i.e. ridiculous interest rates)

I definitely agree with the open mind. Points taken, and in doing so, here are some of mine.
->What's wrong with libertarianism? (http://www.zompist.com/libertos.html)
->Why is libertarianism wrong? (http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html)
->Critiques of Libertarianism: A Non-Libertarianism FAQ. (http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html)

[Magua]

I like some of their policies, I've been thinking about giving them my party vote. To be honest, I see no one I want to vote for at the moment.

[Mr. Peanut]

In the meantime, by all means look for new efficiencies in Government, but don't complain about the meagre payment you make into the kitty each month which allows you to ride down the street without seeing people dying in the gutter.

Efficiencies in government is an oxymoron, and there are plenty of homeless people in varying degrees of ill health for the parliamentary members to gaze at from their $90000 BMW's.

Perhaps those people wouldn't be in such a ill state if we couldn't afford the apathetic auto-response of, "the government will take care of it".

I'm quite aware of how harsh the world can be, if I see someone in need, I don't hesitate to help them out.

[jrandom]

Y'know, I've often pondered the idea that libertarians are, ultimately, the most naive of all head-in-the-clouds optimists.

They think that an unfettered release of human nature, a personal-responsibility soup stirred by the invisible hand of Adam Smith, will lead to utopia.

Personally, I think that Lord of the Flies describes a far likelier outcome.

[jrandom]

Efficiencies in government is an oxymoron...

Nonsense. Reduced ad absurdum, your statement implies that organisation creates waste.

That's nothing more than a fallacious rhetorical flurry.

I counter that organisation is necessary to efficiency. Where the organisation is suboptimal, fix it!


there are plenty of homeless people...

Oh, you think?

Do you have any idea of the actual homeless populations of Auckland and Wellington, how they compare to other cities in other countries, and how many of New Zealand's homeless are on the streets through choice?

[Mr. Peanut]

Most eloquently put! I have little fact to back up my arguments anyway. And it's reassuring to see such an intelligent response to my political rant.

To be honest, I hadn't put much thought into the initial post, and after your fair initial critique, I couldn't help being the devils advocate..

I'm gonna go back to cooking my soup and consider myself outgunned :laugh:

[Gubb]

Awwww..... C'mon.
When was the last time a political debate occurred that didn't turn into a name calling rant?

[oldrider]

One of the strengths of KB is the freedom and ability to debate a range subjects openly.

The best thing is that people have still got opinions, let alone the desire to express and debate them.

I still think there are too many people in NZ who are prepared to let the government do their thinking for them. :spanking: Cheers John.