To bin or not to bin?

[mowgli]

I had a slow day at work today and got thinking about how often I see noobs being told that binning or dropping their ride is inevitable and to get used to the idea. I think this is defeatist and may even increase the chance of it happening.

Consider first the believer in inevitability. In the split seconds as an incident develops part of their psyche has already accepted that this could be the one and at least part of their attention will be diverted to considering where they expect to end up when the worst happens. Your bike will follow your eyes sealing the inevitability of the bin.

Now consider the non-believer. I put it that they are less distracted by the potential negative consequences and are more likely to concentrate on the task at hand and take appropriate actions. Sure they might still stuff it up but on average they are far less likely to bin.

I haven't been riding road bikes for long so 'd be the first to accept that this observation may be simplistic. But what do you think?

[FROSTY]

NO crash is EVER inevitable.
Simplistic answer but what the hey

[Katman]

And furthermore, they then come on here and tell us all about it as though they've just completed some sort of 'Rite of Passage'.

[The Stranger]

And furthermore, they then come on here and tell us all about it as though they've just completed some sort of 'Rite of Passage'.

Why not? It is to be celebrated.

[AllanB]

Read most of the 'I binned it today' posts here and the theme is similar - they go something like.....

I was doing 200 around a 180 degree bend going down Mt Everest when I suddenly lost it - unsure what the reason was but I noticed later that the road was covered in snow.

Most times unless another party is involved are due to way to much speed for the situation/conditions.

[Katman]

Why not? It is to be celebrated.

See, now I can tell that that's a pisstake.

However, I don't know that the same can be said for an unfortunately large number of others on this site.

[Blossom]

ok...being a noob I would like to add another option to the poll.
No. Every effort will be made to avoid binning.

just being anal. I know a few who have never dropped their bikes so I know it can be done.

[Katman]

ok...being a noob I would like to add another option to the poll.
No. Every effort will be made to avoid binning.

just being anal. I know a few who have never dropped their bikes so I know it can be done.

I think, if you look closely, you'll find that that option is already there.:msn-wink:

[Mikkel]

I for one don't believe in inevitability.

However, unless you are extremely cautious and mature in your approach to riding, a crash sooner or later is very probable.

Caution and maturity seems to be virtues generally shunned by motorcyclists... You do the maths.

Given enough time, shit will happen! If you're lucky you'll walk away in (self)disgust rather than being carried away in pieces.

[Mikkel]

I think, if you look closely, you'll find that that option is already there.:msn-wink:

Except that the 'definitely'-part is a bit too optimistic for my taste.

[mowgli]

A tendency among riders is to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own safety. Instead, they blame external factors, such as road surfaces and other drivers, for imposing danger on them. It's very easy, especially when confident of your own skills, to scapegoat exterior variables rather than consider how you could ride more safely.

Hmmmm, too true

[Katman]

It is the widespread acceptance of the supposed inevitablity of motorcycle accidents that has lead motorcyclists, in the main, to become exactly as stated in my signature.

[megageoff76]

I was doing 200 around a 180 degree bend going down Mt Everest.

That man definatley deserves a DB.

[_intense_]

No, bin is not assured, im living proof. And the first incident was after 5 years, and i got hit by a guy -his fault. *rock on* :headbang:

[DMNTD]

I don't believe that you can definitely avoid ever having an accident however there are MANY steps to greatly lessen the chances of it happening.

[MIXONE]

I agree with D but can any rider on kb who has ridden regularly for X number of years honestly say that they have never had an off?

[yod]

No, bin is not assured, im living proof. And the first incident was after 5 years, and i got hit by a guy -his fault. *rock on* :headbang:

its still a bin tho....innit

which is the point really, you can be as careful as a nana but you can't account for every other idiot on the road

[toebug]

I don't believe that you can definitely avoid ever having an accident however there are MANY steps to greatly lessen the chances of it happening.

So says he who has binned a few!!

[wickle]

Perhaps instead of cc rating for learner licences , it should be matched to horse power rating or horse power to brain power for some.

[fridayflash]

i think its not an inevitable fate,thatd drastically deter learners.ive been riding on road since 1988 and not come off once.i do ride carefully but not reservedly,i do know however that my first fall could be anytime anywhere:eek: lol
p.s i think 20yrs of falling off dirtbikes makes me not wana hit the tarseal!!! lol

[DMNTD]

So says he who has binned a few!!

...exactly.

1st time was 8 years ago now. My inexperience contributed to me high siding after failing to read some diesel on a wet road. (raining)

2nd time was February last year when my rear locked up under braking after failing to read a greasy road surface. May also have been a partial mechanical failure. (cold damp morning)

3rd time was last year in July when my rear tyre hit some diesel that I failed to read however it took someone else a while to work out what the hell it was that I hit as it was a beautiful sunny day and extremely hard to see even when standing over it therefore making it damn near impossible to read whilst riding.

Out of the 3 bins I've had I know that at least one was definitely avoidable...a second,maybe...but the third was what I deem as virtually unavoidable.

Considering my past road riding habits(over 20 years) I do feel fortunate to be alive/semi in one piece and have learnt to never trust road conditions however good they appear to be in saying that I also know I'm not a freaking angel either.
I must also add that during each of these accidents I wasn't speeding.

[Mikkel]

I must also add that during each of these accidents I wasn't speeding.

Of course, otherwise you wouldn't have been here today. :yes:

This is of course a pisstake...

[MIXONE]

i think its not an inevitable fate,thatd drastically deter learners.ive been riding on road since 1988 and not come off once.i do ride carefully but not reservedly,i do know however that my first fall could be anytime anywhere:eek: lol
p.s i think 20yrs of falling off dirtbikes makes me not wana hit the tarseal!!! lol
It should be compulsory to learn to ride in the dirt first!Imagine a guy/girl with no dirt experience and the first time their bike slides in diesel/gravel/ice/whatever what is their first reaction?Hit the picks and bang down they go.

[mowgli]

It should be compulsory to learn to ride in the dirt first!Imagine a guy/girl with no dirt experience and the first time their bike slides in diesel/gravel/ice/whatever what is their first reaction?Hit the picks and bang down they go.
MIXONE you have a very good point there. I started in the dirt many years ago. Then a long period of nothing. Now road bikes. I've had the odd slide, particularly in the wet, and have been surprised at how controllable they were. Dirt works. You sir may have a bling!

[Crisis management]

Humph, I want a pair of those anti gravity pants that you lot obviously wear, mine clearly, were a cheap pair, and don't work......:crybaby:

[sugilite]

And are planning my next one for this evening :lol:
Thats the way I read these kinds of posts.

IMHO, a lot of crashes are due to riders convincing themselves that they are indeed crashing...goes like, ARGGGG I'm crashing, so they do. Now preloading in your mind that crashing is inevitable will accelerate that process, to my way of thinking anyways.

I've crashed plenty, I'm a racer. Though I've got away with plenty as well. Do not give up on the thought of saving it until your lying on the ground and the bike is over there somewhere.

See attached pic of one of my crashes.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/picture.php?albumid=60&pictureid=359

[Mikkel]

I've crashed plenty, I'm a racer. Though I've got away with plenty as well. Do not give up on the thought of saving it until your lying on the ground and the bike is over there somewhere.

You're thinking about something along the lines of this I take it:

[homer]

Read most of the 'I binned it today' posts here and the theme is similar - they go something like.....

I was doing 200 around a 180 degree bend going down Mt Everest when I suddenly lost it - unsure what the reason was but I noticed later that the road was covered in snow.

Most times unless another party is involved are due to way to much speed for the situation/conditions.

fuck i like it lots
made me laugh
:first:

[Mike748]

You're thinking about something along the lines of this I take it:

Great Pic, "yeah we can still save it" lol

Being totally stubborn and refusing to quit can also work against you! and had me on the deck a few months ago.
I should have stopped for a rest I knew I was tired, I knew I my reactions were too slow and my lines were off, but did I stop Noooooo I pushed on .... and before long I was pushing the bike onto the trailer.

[FJRider]

The only TRUE way to avoid a bin is stay in bed. The more you ride, the more chance there is of RIDDUS INTERRUPTUS. Care, ability, and old fashioned LUCK. All play a part.

[Mikkel]

I should have stopped for a rest I knew I was tired, I knew I my reactions were too slow and my lines were off, but did I stop Noooooo I pushed on .... and before long I was pushing the bike onto the trailer.

Yeah, that happens as well :( :cry: :bash:

[NOMIS]

bull.. I droped my bike once off its stand and 2nd just a weird all of a sudden im on the ground.

both where inevitable but they still happened.

[puddytat]

my last bin was pullin up to the gas pump & stalling, causing the blike to tip to one side & "binning" into the rubbish bin...:clap::Oops:

[NOMIS]

I mean both could have been avoided if i was in the right frame of mind

[Mikkel]

both where inevitable but they still happened.

Inevitable occurances have a nasty habit of doing that... :yes:

[The Stranger]

See, now I can tell that that's a pisstake.

However, I don't know that the same can be said for an unfortunately large number of others on this site.

Actually it's not a piss take.
It's deadly serious.

As per the original post, everyone is going to bin or drop their ride. It's just the way it is.
It's part of life. Every so often we as humans fuck up, and there is no one else to blame. It does you good to come to the realisation that hey I am fallable and I fucked up, it teaches accepting responsibility, it does you good to learn that no matter how good you think you are, you are only human like the rest of us. It serves to instil some humility and understanding. For those reasons its to be celebrated.

It's no good trying to sugar coat it. Get used to it, accept it, then it wont feel so bad when it happens.

As to the blame thing. Damn you make a mountain out of a mole hill don't you.
I binned my Blackbird. Why?
I approached a slight ridge on a straight too fast, the road fell away to an off camber right hander with crap all over the outside of the corner.

That's not blaming someone or something else.
That is rationalising the situation for the purposes of learning.
Huge difference!
Should I fail to do this, I fail to learn from the experience. That would be a complete waste of an experience.
So when asked what happened I can say either "I fucked up" which is true but says nothing of what I learned and teaches nothing or I can say what happened, which is also true but has the possiblity to teach not to out ride your vision and don't target fixate etc etc - because rarely does 1 mistake ever get you, it usually requires 2 or more.

[Katman]

Blah, blah, blah.............

Actually, I think you just love the sound of your own voice.

[The Stranger]

Actually, I think you just love the sound of your own voice.

BWAHAHAHA
Coming from you that must be a pisstake.

[Katman]

BWAHAHAHA
Coming from you that must be a pisstake.

No, I'm serious.

I actually think you're full of piss and wind.

Edit: .......and that the RRRS crew should be ashamed to be associated with you.

[McDuck]

Well back tot he origonal post.

I had a bin. Mind wandered and oh fuck i was sliding on the ground. Didn't read the road properly, hit slippery shit and did the wrong thing. I think it is stupid to say 'i am never going to bin'. You need to focus on the here and now. 'i am not going to bin on this ride' or 'i am not going to bin in the next 10 min' is far better. And if you always tot he 'i am not going to bin on this ride' then invariably you will not bin ever.

[The Stranger]

No, I'm serious.

I seriously think you're full of piss and wind.

Edit: .......and that the RRRS crew should be ashamed to have you on board.

Piss and wind?
Odd I always thought that to meant someone who talks the talk but fails to follow through.
How's the riding instructing business going there katman?
Looking forward to seeing some reviews of your classes.

[Katman]

How's the riding instructing business going there katman?


Fuck, you're well down on the play, aren't you?

[The Stranger]

Fuck, you're well down on the play, aren't you?

Don't dance around the subject wimp, just put up or shut up!

[mowgli]

Actually it's not a piss take.
It's deadly serious.

As per the original post, everyone is going to bin or drop their ride. It's just the way it is.
It's part of life. Every so often we as humans fuck up, and there is no one else to blame. It does you good to come to the realisation that hey I am fallable and I fucked up, it teaches accepting responsibility, it does you good to learn that no matter how good you think you are, you are only human like the rest of us. It serves to instil some humility and understanding. For those reasons its to be celebrated.

You don't have to bin to learn those lessons. Close calls are a wake up call. Some recognize this and modify their behaviour without binning. Other's go "woohoo, gotta tell the lads on KB" and go on to encounter one close call too many - and bin!

Note that there is a third category where the first close call results in a bin without any warning. However I expect this is less common.

[Swoop]

I agree with D but can any rider on kb who has ridden regularly for X number of years honestly say that they have never had an off?
Yes.<tencharacters>

[chubby]

You don't have to bin to learn those lessons. Close calls are a wake up call. Some recognize this and modify their behaviour without binning. Other's go "woohoo, gotta tell the lads on KB" and go on to encounter one close call too many - and bin!


and we learn from each other. Sure newbies are more likely to bin and in binning (I'll assume no-one intends to bin) they feel more comfortable in the company of other riders, as they have their own 'war' stories, remember they want to be accepted as riders. IMHO thats not all they do. By writing their experiances they remind the older bikers of the need to concentrate but also by sharing their experiances with other newbies they may also identify more of the circumstances that they can encounter. There is a lot of experience for a newbie to get. In the early stages most of it washes over them. This is part of their learning and reminding....

To all the nay sayers, I agree that too much, 'I binned it last night' does make it seem more acceptable (just like too many I got caught DIC makes it somehow more socially acceptable), when binning is bad. Something went wrong and you have to take some blame for it.

To me binning isn't inevitable, but the more and longer we ride the more chance we will get caught out. Remember Binning bad, riding good.

(eh gods, I must be getting old I sound so serious)

[The Stranger]

You don't have to bin to learn those lessons. Close calls are a wake up call. Some recognize this and modify their behaviour without binning. Other's go "woohoo, gotta tell the lads on KB" and go on to encounter one close call too many - and bin!

Note that there is a third category where the first close call results in a bin without any warning. However I expect this is less common.


You are quite correct, you needn't experience something to learn it.
It is almost always preferable to learn from someone elses mistakes (hence my latter comments in that post) however, it really is not a strong trait in humans in most of lifes endeavours. Also, it is often difficult when starting to even know what you need to know, let alone learn it.

I don't recall seeing any posts which I would class as bragging about a bin as you alude to. Some may well be light hearted, though that may simply be the nature of the person. Please feel free to correct me here and post links to some examples.

But you did ask if binning or dropping their ride is inevitable. To those who have said no, how many have never binned or dropped a bike? I assume when you say drop that includes such silly behaviour as forgetting to put your stand (or feet, in one case I am aware of) down or pushing it out of the garage etc. Sure it is theoretically possible, just no one has ever done it if they have been riding for any length of time.

[Ixion]

I think a distinction needs to be made between a 'bin', a crash, and a 'drop' - missed footing manoevring out of the shed, slippery servo floor, side stand sinking into soft surface, etc.

The latter is often annoying and may involve some damage (possibly even minor injury if one tries to catch a falling bike). But it's of so great a difference to a proper crash that the difference becomes qualitative.

A motorcycle is inherently unstable at rest. So I would have to agree that sooner or later it will fall over. Perhaps even when the rider is nowhere near it. I've come back to parked bikes and found them on the ground.

But I don't agree that a crash is unavoidable. And it is crashes that concern the authorities , ACC etc. And Mums. Which is probably as good a distinguisher as any. if you told your old Mum (who hates you riding one of those dangerous things) that your bike fell off the stand and dented something, she would sympathsise, but nmot worry. Tell her you crashed on your bike and she'll be horrified.

I think it is mischievious to confound the two. It serves to inculate the false argument that 'crashing is inevitable, nothing to worry about, everybody does it".

[FJRider]

You don't have to bin to learn those lessons. Close calls are a wake up call. Some recognize this and modify their behaviour without binning. Other's go "woohoo, gotta tell the lads on KB" and go on to encounter one close call too many - and bin!

Note that there is a third category where the first close call results in a bin without any warning. However I expect this is less common.

The only problem with close calls is, the rider concerned, pats themself on the back for being clever/skilled enough to AVOID a bin. And most likely boasts about it. Experienced skilled riders see problems(or possible problems) unfolding in front of them, and take action(s) to REDUCE the risk(worst case) or remove the risk.
After a close call by an experienced rider, he/she would be able to tell you what they did WRONG to cause the incident.
Sometimes you need ALL your motorcycling experience, right THEN. ALL of it for about 1/10'th of a second. Just for a white knuckle award.