Should bike thieves be made to pay their victims' costs?

[Alive]

After a little discussion in another thread I thought it might be interesting to have a rant about the justice system and how much victims have to pay when someone steals from them.

What's your opinion of the current system?

[Skyryder]

After a little discussion in another thread I thought it might be interesting to have a rant about the justice system and how much victims have to pay when someone steals from them.

What's your opinion of the current system?


I'm a great believer of the THREE STRIKES law. Twenty five years for the third criminal offence without parole Confiscate all assets 'of the family' to the state. This will help offset costs. Mum and the kids can stay in the house and pay rent. Work schemes that pay no more than the minimum rate to be paid to any unemployed family members. Shit I could go on and on . Thieves the leeches of society. Untill the justice system gets real and sends a clear message that [U]crime does not pay[U] we
are going to have the continual problem of crime and violence that has become endemic in NZ. Some of the Judges need sacking too.



Skyryder

[Hitcher]

Why should thieves of motorcycles be treated any differently to thieves of other items?

[sels1]

What's your opinion of the current system?

Too many currants, not enough buns...and dont get me started about the icing...

[Mikkel]

Why should thieves of motorcycles be treated any differently to thieves of other items?

Indeed. IMHO anyone caught damaging or stealing another person or company's property should be made to pay back damages in full. If they can not pay I suggest work camps where they can earn that money through hard manual labour over time - no parole to be considered until reimbursement has been achieved.

And that goes for any kind of theft of property - but not intellectual, that is different.

[Skyryder]

And that goes for any kind of theft of property - but not intellectual, that is different.


Why is intellectual any different?


Skyryder

[Usarka]

Why is intellectual any different?



"I would steal a car if doing so left an exact copy for the owner" - quote from someone on the radio the other day....

[mstriumph]

Why should thieves of motorcycles be treated any differently to thieves of other items? erm :confused: .....motorcycles are special?

[ManDownUnder]

Why is intellectual any different?


Skyryder

because it's... ummm... yeah

[Whynot]

"I would steal a car if doing so left an exact copy for the owner" - quote from someone on the radio the other day....

very good point that.

[ManDownUnder]

I like the old approach of restorative justice.

Theif takes $100 worth of stuff from me, that then entitles me to take $100 of stuff from said theif. I'm happy to do it under the supervision of the courts, show up in the presence of the Police etc (for my safety too of course).

I remember seeing that done ages ago and the theif was devastated... they felt invaded after the bayliffs showed up a couple of times over the course of ... months I think it was. Each time was reasonably unannounced and the victim picked through the theif's stuff looking for anything they liked (CD's Playstations etc).

I thought it was brilliant, and all organised at the direction of Judge Brown (US judge I think he is). Now THAT's something the polly's should be promising this election.

[Mikkel]

Why is intellectual any different?


Skyryder


"I would steal a car if doing so left an exact copy for the owner" - quote from someone on the radio the other day....

Because when it comes to intellectual theft you can eat and have your cake at the same time...

The basis for theft is take something away from somebody else. It's the deprivation that is central when it comes to the impact of theft. I couldn't care less if everybody else had a motorcycle/tv/guitar like mine - as long as I can have my one, that I have paid for, to myself.

E.g. the argument that, by downloading an illegitimate copy of a certain piece of music, you are actually robbing the artist and publisher of something they already have is flawed. You may argue that you have taken an opportunity to make more profit away from them - but that is also flawed. Even if it was not, then I suppose I should feel guilty every time I buy my groceries in Woolworths because I have deprived Pak'n'Save of an opportunity to make profit?

[jim.cox]

I like the old approach of restorative justice.

Theif takes $100 worth of stuff from me, that then entitles me to take $100 of stuff from said theif. I'm happy to do it under the supervision of the courts, show up in the presence of the Police etc (for my safety too of course).


Why not go for Sharia Law? - chop their hand off - should be an effective deterent

[inlinefour]

I'm a great believer of the THREE STRIKES law. Twenty five years for the third criminal offence without parole Confiscate all assets 'of the family' to the state. This will help offset costs. Mum and the kids can stay in the house and pay rent. Work schemes that pay no more than the minimum rate to be paid to any unemployed family members. Shit I could go on and on . Thieves the leeches of society. Untill the justice system gets real and sends a clear message that [U]crime does not pay[U] we
are going to have the continual problem of crime and violence that has become endemic in NZ. Some of the Judges need sacking too.



Skyryder

I agree completely and think that the problem is within the Police force as well. While I was a student we had our house broken into but a drunk from next doors party. He did not realise that on the other side of the window down stairs was a very large pile of firewood and building offcuts. Once he got inside he had alot of trouble getting off it and once he did I wacked him accross the back/sholders with a longer piece of timber which just took the wind out of him I think. At the time I had a new born baby and wife upstairs who was allready on the phone to the Police. They turned up and dealt with him and from what I understood he got a very wet bus ticket and payed the insurance cost at bugger all per week as he was on the dole. The bit that made me mad was the poooooolice wanted to charge me for assauting him, even though I was trying to protect my family and home! A decient copper stuck around until the rest had gone and helped me put a tarp over the window that was broken. He then showed me his torch and advised me there was a gap in the law that allowed me to carry a torch for security reasons and if I hit him with that then I would not get charged. Needless to say that I have got a couple of very large and heavy mag lights now and Ive even had one chance and several close calls to use it. The legal system is a fucking disgrasce and those who supports it, uphold it and work within it should be totally ashamed because its doing a piss poor job IMO. :spanking:

[ManDownUnder]

Why not go for Sharia Law? - chop their hand off - should be an effective deterent

Because it's barbaric and deterents don't work for opportunistic crime or crimes of passion

[sweetp]

I don't think this is a thing to slag the police about - they can only follow the laws as they are written. However think this is a very good place to bitch about the stupid idiots who make the laws and then make the loopholes, which allow the no hopers to get away with crime.

[slimjim]

hahahahaha......... what were gave your this thought hahahaha pay ... what's insurance for cost's go up but it never ever be the prick's that cause it ............. nope never happen in nz

[Alive]

Situation that happened recently... Could have been anything but just happens to involve a motorcycle.

Bike gets stolen from mates back yard... Cops chase and catch some dude a few days later... Clown crashes bike that's uninsured.

Cops get towing company to remove bike from side of the road.

So now my mate has paid $150 to tow yard and it's going to cost around another 500 odd bucks to fix it.

The unemployed gang associate most likely gets jail so free food and housing.

Courts will most likely not fine him or compensate my mate in any way shape or form.

Only thing he can do is take civil action against the guy... Thing is they know where he lives, have gang connections, he has a young family and ownes the house so isn't interested in shifting..... Why the F*&K would he bother putting his family at risk over a few hundred bucks and why the F*&K does our justice system let these thieving bastards get a free ride?

[peasea]

Situation that happened recently... Could have been anything but just happens to involve a motorcycle.

Bike gets stolen from mates back yard... Cops chase and catch some dude a few days later... Clown crashes bike that's uninsured.

Cops get towing company to remove bike from side of the road.

So now my mate has paid $150 to tow yard and it's going to cost around another 500 odd bucks to fix it.

The unemployed gang associate most likely gets jail so free food and housing.

Courts will most likely not fine him or compensate my mate in any way shape or form.

Only thing he can do is take civil action against the guy... Thing is they know where he lives, have gang connections, he has a young family and ownes the house so isn't interested in shifting..... Why the F*&K would he bother putting his family at risk over a few hundred bucks and why the F*&K does our justice system let these thieving bastards get a free ride?

Welcome to New Zealand.

[AllanB]

The IRD make it compulsory for your employer to pay back your student loan. Your employer will be fined if they do not do this.

Why not the same for a criminal - if they are employed as above, if they are on a benefit take it directly out of that.


Or take them into a public square at lunch time put them in some stocks and slowly boil their balls in fat. :yes:

[disenfranchised]

I like the old approach of restorative justice.

Theif takes $100 worth of stuff from me, that then entitles me to take $100 of stuff from said theif. I'm happy to do it under the supervision of the courts, show up in the presence of the Police etc (for my safety too of course).

I remember seeing that done ages ago and the theif was devastated... they felt invaded after the bayliffs showed up a couple of times over the course of ... months I think it was. Each time was reasonably unannounced and the victim picked through the theif's stuff looking for anything they liked (CD's Playstations etc).

I thought it was brilliant, and all organised at the direction of Judge Brown (US judge I think he is). Now THAT's something the polly's should be promising this election.


That doesn't quite work....you go in and take $100 worth of stuff....that he nicked from someone else in the first place.

It'd just makes the crims more likely to steal....as long as they didn't get found out on the majority they'd be ahead of the game.

i.e. if they steal 3 playstations, and they get done for yours...and you go and take a playstation off them...then they've still got a playstation, you're happy cause you got your playstation back, but some other poor bugger out there is still missing theirs.

Or they just flog everything and hide the money in an unaffiliated bank account (trust, limited liablity company etc..)

[Skyryder]

Because when it comes to intellectual theft you can eat and have your cake at the same time...

The basis for theft is take something away from somebody else. It's the deprivation that is central when it comes to the impact of theft. I couldn't care less if everybody else had a motorcycle/tv/guitar like mine - as long as I can have my one, that I have paid for, to myself.

E.g. the argument that, by downloading an illegitimate copy of a certain piece of music, you are actually robbing the artist and publisher of something they already have is flawed. You may argue that you have taken an opportunity to make more profit away from them - but that is also flawed. Even if it was not, then I suppose I should feel guilty every time I buy my groceries in Woolworths because I have deprived Pak'n'Save of an opportunity to make profit?



Well I could be wrong but I was under the impression that intellectual theft was to steal the 'idea.' What you seem to be describing is 'piracy.' This has become so common that this kind of 'theft' has become so accepted that stealing, be it downloading code, data or other digital signals is now no longer considered theft by the general population. Your analogy seems to bear that out.

When you take (steal) and use a product that you have not paid for, this by the very act of the theft, has reduced the profit margin from the producer. To use your analogy of 'choice' by shopping in Woolworths, you have deprived. Pack'n'Save of an oppertunity to make a profit, can in no way be compared to theft.


Skyryder

[Oakie]

When Mrs Oakie's bike got stolen and the first guy appeared in court, we were asked to quantify the loss to us and the cops would try for reparation. Taking into account the insurance payment we came up with a figure of $600 something.

Unfortunately the guy owed about $12000 in unpaid fines so we were told the chances of us getting anything were tiny. That proved to be the case.

[Danboy]

Eye for an eye works in my book! Justice system in this country ain't worth shit. People who get done for fraud get more time in prison than murderers! How fucked is that!!??! :no:

[wickle]

Why not go for Sharia Law? - chop their hand off - should be an effective deterent
Didn't they use to hang horse thievies? A bike is a modern horse.

[Patar]

Because when it comes to intellectual theft you can eat and have your cake at the same time...

The basis for theft is take something away from somebody else. It's the deprivation that is central when it comes to the impact of theft. I couldn't care less if everybody else had a motorcycle/tv/guitar like mine - as long as I can have my one, that I have paid for, to myself.

E.g. the argument that, by downloading an illegitimate copy of a certain piece of music, you are actually robbing the artist and publisher of something they already have is flawed. You may argue that you have taken an opportunity to make more profit away from them - but that is also flawed. Even if it was not, then I suppose I should feel guilty every time I buy my groceries in Woolworths because I have deprived Pak'n'Save of an opportunity to make profit?

If you had an idea that would make you millions of dollars, it doesn't matter what this idea is (music, program, anything at all), and I took that idea and made money from it; I may not be excluding you from being able to still make money from your idea, BUT I have stopped you making money from the people that I made money from. If I had obtained your idea illegally then I have stolen the money I made from selling your idea directly from you.

The notion that just because the person you stole something from still has it does not mean you didn't steal it and still deserve to pay, anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.

[ManDownUnder]

....as long as they didn't get found out on the majority they'd be ahead of the game.

I appreciate the maths lesson but... you really think the Police are that stupid? Going to the home of a convicted theif, seeing a lot of stuff kicking around and not asking any questions about it's origins?