Race Tech pistons in stock cartridges

[Robert Taylor]

At the first 08 VMCC round last Sunday at Taupo we tested some new type Race Tech pistons. These were fitted into the stock fork cartridges in Sam Smiths new 08 Yamaha R6.
The reality is this was a little enforced upon us as we are still awaiting a new set of 08 specific Ohlins cartridge kits for that very bike, but we also thought hey this is an excellent opportunity. Sams memory of the Ohlins cartridges in his 06 /07 championship winning R6 was going to be a solid baseline to compare against. But also we have made a lot of further progress in fitting different pistons into these and refining the settings further. This was proven to devastating effect when Midge Smart returned from injury and won the last two rounds of the Nats.
So prior to this last weekend we installed Race Tech compression pistons and their relatively new ''high frequency'' rebound pistons. These discard the inferior ''checkplate midvalve'' and employ a bending shim stack midvalve, copying Ohlins lead with their 25mm FGK cartridges. Such a design places much more emphasis for damping control on the backface of the rebound piston instead of having a checkplate that lifts meaning very little control and almost all the control on the base valve in the bottom of the forks. So the design and function becomes much much closer to a reservoir type shock absorber. Damping response and therefore CONTROL is much more instantaneous instead of essentially being a little delayed................by which time the horse has essentially bolted and therefore takes a lot more force to bring under control.
So, better brake dive resistance and more sidegrip on account of the setting being less compromised.
Nearly a full day was spent on our suspension dyno and the damping curve we required was already on our database, a well developed Ohlins FGK damping curve. The task at hand was to mimic that and we achieved same after 4 revalves and dyno tests. Candidly, the Race Tech suggested settings were not going to work so well especially the rebound curve. That rather agrees with my often mentioned opinion that you should have experience and skill to fit these kits. And it seems $35k or more of test equipment!
Anyway, Sam briefly tested these forks at Pukekohe and was very very surprised how well they worked, with abslolutely no further adjustments post delivery.
We met with Sam at Taupo early on the Sunday. The day included an agenda to test a new piston in the TTX36 rear shock and to that end we had a rear tyre fitted that was way past its use by date. Also Sam had not raced since his horrendous highside at the Nats 4 months previous so we were not expecting miracles and frankly were there to test, race results only being incidental. Some incremental setting changes and valving was carried out to the rear over the first 2 races, very minor changes in the front were carried out after we changed the chassis geometry a little. That merely included lowering the oil level very slightly and changing the compression damping by 2 clicks.
A still worn but fresher rear tyre was fitted for the last race as by that time we were confident of a great setting in the rear. The upshot was Sam won the last race, pullig away after he passed into the lead. He set a new F2 lap record for Taupo, this in spite of a cold track , the motor being stock standard with a stock pipe and lack of recent race miles for the rider. So Sams talent and the suspension package was clearly doing the job.

There are therefore several points that are relevant to my diatribe above;

1) I have absolutely no doubt that Ohlins cartridges would have worked better again for reasons that they seriously address the friction issues and everything is on the same centreline! Moreover the 25mm piston size ( as opposed to oem 20mm and other peoples aftermarket cartridges ) push more fluid and that pays dividends in brake dive resistance. Especially during the summer months when there is lots of grip to be had. The ability to make quick setting changes to these and the unbelievable ease of changing springs is also a HUGE bonus for overworked suspension technicians!
But, concedingly not everyone can afford these ( but a counter argument is that they have value to onsell second hand so it is not once only dead money )
2) But at considerably less cost ( around $1350 all up ) we can now offer a full upspec specific to the owners requirements, be it road race, trackday or road use only. Thats inclusive of new compression pistons, ''high frequency'' rebound pistons that embrace bending shim stack midvalve technology, new appropriately rated springs and spacers and Ohlins oil.
We guarantee that the end result exceeds all other 20mm cartridge options available and delivers great bang for buck. Sam has already proven so!!
3) This upspec can also easily be fitted into Traxxion Dynamics cartridges ( both AK20 and AK gas )to deliver a significant improvement. ( Note that we are the only suspension workshop in NZ trained by Traxxion Dynamics, certified and with all of the appropriate and specific service tools)
4) We must pay credit to our suspension dyno in assisting with development as it gives us a visual representation of the damping curves and overlays them as we make changes to the valving stacks. Also, having a huge database of well tested Ohlins curves gives us a target to aim for. That is exactly what we did with Sams test forks and we were able to take it straight to the track and it was on the money straight away.

As stated we are using ( exclusively ) Ohlins oil with our fork upspecs. A couple of years back we employed Craig Shirriffs to carry out back to back tests with Ohlins fork oil against what we at the time adjudged to be the best aftermarket commonly known fork oil at the time. The result was apparent straight away, you could ride on the very first lap a lot harder, in cold conditions. It is a fact that Ohlins produce a very large number of Snowmobile suspension units that get ridden in very cold temperatures. They are therefore very pedantic about having suspension fluids that flow very very well at cold temperatures.
Now, In Europe and North America the temps in winter are usually so cold that motorcycle racing stops. But here in New Zealand the extremes are not as bad so we have series like VMCC over the winter months, that means we are for the most part racing in temps that the Europeans etc largely dont! Forks run at ambient temperature or slightly below so it makes sense to instal a high quality and ( also ) very slippery oil that has much better flow properties at such temps. Cheap $20 1 litre oil packs just dont cut it, fact. Every fork we upspec gets the good stuff, if it didnt we would be doing a substandard job.


As a further aside we handed out over 50 draft copies of suspension set up / troubleshooting manuals at Taupo. These are not a major textbook but do answer most commonly asked questions in an easy to understand format. Anything more detailed and we will answer questions directly forwarded to us. We have this manual stored electronically and will happily forward to anyone who requests it.

We have been in the suspension game now for 20 years or more and intend to do so until too old and silly to do so! Others come and go but our focus is to provide the best possible product and service. It does take years and years to get on top of this game and that includes considerable personal investment in training overseas etc. No-one is born with instant talent to be a suspension technician, it is about lots and lots of experience, training and a huge, totally focused committment.

We will answer any questions at any time dealing with any brand of suspension unit, be it by phone. e-mail or trackside etc.

[HDTboy]

Yet another entertaining and informative read. When are you publishing a book?
Could you please email me a copy of said troubleshooting guide, as I wasn't at Taupo?

[Robert Taylor]

Yet another entertaining and informative read. When are you publishing a book?
Could you please email me a copy of said troubleshooting guide, as I wasn't at Taupo?

On receipt of your e-mail address that would indeed be possible.

[imdying]

Wanting to quantify the gains from kits like these is off topic.

[Robert Taylor]

Would love to see some of these curves... say OEM/AK20/Ohlins kit for a GSXR1000 front fork. No problem with you stripping out the actual numbers to protect your investment or whatever, just interested in seeing how the curves relate to each other (wouldn't mind some detail on basic interpretation of them though. that'd be neat).

We would have to reserve that as intellectual property as its also about the shaping of the curves to achieve best off corner traction. Our investment is massive, sorry but we have to draw a line on that one.

[imdying]

Wanting to quantify the gains from kits like these is off topic.

[Robert Taylor]

But if nobody else has a shock dyno anyway, they wouldn't be able to even know if they were replicating your curves... and so what if they did try, isn't the trick in knowing how to achieve the curves anyway?

If not the GSXR, as that's still relevant and current, how about something that used to be popular, but now isn't... would you have any stock/lightly modified/high end charts for those? How about something like a 92 CBR900RR?

Anything at all? :confused:

Yes but if someone else steps up and purchases a shock dyno Im not going to pre-impart knowledge for free that has cost me a LOT of time and money ( maybe not far short of 100k over the years ) to accumulate. I have been very free with sharing what I have learnt and have helped a lot of people out of goodwill ( maybe too much so ) but have to draw a line in the sand somewhere! Sorry if that sounds harsh but I am not going to train would be competitors over a public forum. I have been through it for many years with people milking knowledge for their own ( competitive ) gain.

[JD Racing]

This is all good if the rider wants lots of brake dive resistance, what if he wants the tyre really loading hard under braking so that he can feel exactly what the tyre is doing prior to turn in, there are alot of riders out there complaining of vague front ends or front ends that are sitting high on corner entry.

[Robert Taylor]

This is all good if the rider wants lots of brake dive resistance, what if he wants the tyre really loading hard under braking so that he can feel exactly what the tyre is doing prior to turn in, there are alot of riders out there complaining of vague front ends or front ends that are sitting high on corner entry.

Well aware of that over several seasons and have that covered, there was no intimation that superb brake dive resistance was ''everything'' at the expense of tyre feel that you have so correctly eluded to.

[Robert Taylor]

This is all good if the rider wants lots of brake dive resistance, what if he wants the tyre really loading hard under braking so that he can feel exactly what the tyre is doing prior to turn in, there are alot of riders out there complaining of vague front ends or front ends that are sitting high on corner entry.

Of note is that the new Race Tech rebound piston almost perfectly mimics the flow characteristics of the ''old faithful'' Ohlins 20mm pistons on rebound function, excepting that it is adapted for bending shim stack midvalve on compression flow.

[JD Racing]

I think you'll find the bending shim stack midvalve was first used by Showa in motocross forks a long long time before it appeared on Ohlins forks.

Having done lots of experimentation with 20mm bending shim stack midvalves over the past few years I've moved away from the traditional bending shim stack, it's hard to get the correct resistance where you want it in the speed range, letting the horse bolt out the stable door is not always a bad thing, it stops the cavitation bounce you can get with some midvalve builds, you just have to have the ability to pull the reigns.

[Shaun]

I think you'll find the bending shim stack midvalve was first used by Showa in motocross forks a long long time before it appeared on Ohlins forks.

Having done lots of experimentation with 20mm bending shim stack midvalves over the past few years I've moved away from the traditional bending shim stack, it's hard to get the correct resistance where you want it in the speed range, letting the horse bolt out the stable door is not always a bad thing, it stops the cavitation bounce you can get with some midvalve builds, you just have to have the ability to pull the reigns.




Horse Bolt Stable door

Kind of like a trouser cough? Before the full follow through with the used goods I am guessing:headbang:

[Robert Taylor]

I think you'll find the bending shim stack midvalve was first used by Showa in motocross forks a long long time before it appeared on Ohlins forks.

Having done lots of experimentation with 20mm bending shim stack midvalves over the past few years I've moved away from the traditional bending shim stack, it's hard to get the correct resistance where you want it in the speed range, letting the horse bolt out the stable door is not always a bad thing, it stops the cavitation bounce you can get with some midvalve builds, you just have to have the ability to pull the reigns.

That is correct but as you also very well know it has only more recently been embraced in road and road race use where you have relatively short stroke movements. You may be having trouble getting the ''correct resistance'' with what you are working with but we are not! Yes, am also abundantly aware of the need for pressure balance and the risk of cavitation.
I think you should divulge details of any forums that you may be involved in in your country so that we can continue such a debate on your patch? Or have you not got the intestinal fortitude to do so?

[Robert Taylor]

Horse Bolt Stable door

Kind of like a trouser cough? Before the full follow through with the used goods I am guessing:headbang:

This is a serious discussion.

[Shaun]

Quoted from Rob

I think you should divulge details of any forums that you may be involved in in your country so that we can continue such a debate on your patch? Or have you not got the intestinal fortitude to do so?

O thats write, you are GOD! Relax rob, Or do you not like to be challenged/guided/advised by a man with obviously has as much and more experience than you.

I am one of the KB members who really enjoy the extra input in the suspension thread from a freind, would you mind NOT tryng to push him away from this web site please, OR Have you invested over 100K into this site as well:eek5:

[FilthyLuka]

MOD WARNING: keep it on track, technical details only.

If you wan't to convince rob to go open source do it over PM

[Shaun]

MOD WARNING: keep it on track, technical details only.

If you wan't to convince rob to go open source do it over PM



You have a PM question to awnser about this

[Shaun]

Could you please awnser this TECHNICAL quetion Robert "Quote from you" Rob.


So prior to this last weekend we installed Race Tech compression pistons and their relatively new ''high frequency'' rebound pistons. These discard the inferior ''checkplate midvalve'' and employ a bending shim stack midvalve, copying Ohlins lead with their 25mm FGK cartridges.


Are Ohlin's the owners of Race Tech as well? or just happy for another to copy them?

[White trash]

MOD WARNING: keep it on track, technical details only.

If you wan't to convince rob to go open source do it over PM
What? Are you mental?

We can't ask non technical questions in this forum, is that what you're saying? You're dictating to people what they can and can't ask?

Seen it all now.......

Robert: Is there a website (Ohlins or otherwise) that thoroughly describes in laymans terms the actual physics of what a bending shim stack or a checkplate mid valve is doing during operation?

[Robert Taylor]

Quoted from Rob

I think you should divulge details of any forums that you may be involved in in your country so that we can continue such a debate on your patch? Or have you not got the intestinal fortitude to do so?

O thats write, you are GOD! Relax rob, Or do you not like to be challenged/guided/advised by a man with obviously has as much and more experience than you.

I am one of the KB members who really enjoy the extra input in the suspension thread from a freind, would you mind NOT tryng to push him away from this web site please, OR Have you invested over 100K into this site as well:eek5:

There is a time for flippancy and there is a time where it is not so appropriate and that is the EXACT point I was trying to make. You were trying to achieve god knows what and so was someone else and for what reasons?
I dont have to divulge any of my own accumulated experience but have taken considerable time to do so, and will continue to do so as long as it is recieved in the spirit it is given.
I have often enjoyed the comments from JD but what I do strongly object to is he enjoys the luxury of occassional sniping from a position of anonymity. That is cowardly and hardly a level playing field.
I would therefore ask anyone reading this post if they would like me to continue offering help or short articles re what I have personally learnt with suspension systems????????????????????

[HDTboy]

As selfish as it sounds, I'd like to read as much as you can type on the subject Robert.

[Kickaha]

As selfish as it sounds, I'd like to read as much as you can type on the subject Robert.

As would I

[Robert Taylor]

What? Are you mental?

We can't ask non technical questions in this forum, is that what you're saying? You're dictating to people what they can and can't ask?

Seen it all now.......

Robert: Is there a website (Ohlins or otherwise) that thoroughly describes in laymans terms the actual physics of what a bending shim stack or a checkplate mid valve is doing during operation?

Not as such, but suffice to say the checkplate lifts relatively easily and dumps oil from one side of the piston to the other with relative ease, thereby dictating that most of the compression control is on the base valve. With the bending shim stack system it works exactly like a shim stack and places a greater degree of control at that part of the assembly. It will also modulate flow way way better than a check valve.
You cannot get too aggressive with it otherwise you will introduce cavitation, as correctly eluded to by JD racing. There are ways of ''tuning'' the checkplate system and we did fiddle with that for many years. But once we embraced the bending shim stack midvalve in the Ohlins FGK cartridges we went ahead in leaps and bounds. In fact I have an update mod for your forks that we tested with Shirriffs, Stroud and Bugden. Race Tech ( a seperate company to Ohlins ) now use this in road race and this is what we tested with Sam. This technology has been intermittently used in MX over the years but has only more recently been embraced in non works level road racing.
Jimmy, it was a pleasure to answer your question!

[White trash]

I would therefore ask anyone reading this post if they would like me to continue offering help or short articles re what I have personally learnt with suspension systems????????????????????


You know it big fella.

[Pumba]

As selfish as it sounds, I'd like to read as much as you can type on the subject Robert.

Add another vote for me, although I have read most of your posts and really struggle to grasp the concepts most of the time they are informative all the same.

[JD Racing]

What would be the definition of high frequency exactly? I've been doing this for a long time but have no idea whatsoever what high frequency refers to in this instance.

Checkplates can be made to work very well, with sufficient seat force they can help build cartridge pressure very rapidly, by restricting their lift you can limit the dumping of fluid, their rate of opening can also be modified with different spring rates. The general problem with checkplates is that in a traditional set up they dump too much fluid, this can be adressed by looking at all the elements in the system, of which it has many and tuning each element, its something that's far from dead.

Bending shim stacks can also be made to work well but to get the necessary seat force to stop them dumping fluid they need a fairly stiff stack which can lead to cavitation, build something that doesn't open the ports fast enough and you have too much damping at high speeds which makes the forks ride high in the stroke. With a bending shim stack system you have far less elements to tune which is very restrictive in a 20mm cartridge with a high pressure drop which makes them very susceptible to cavitation.

What is the viscosity index of the Ohlins oil, how does it compare with other oils in the ball wear test?
I'm not aware of "Ohlins use it in snowmobile shocks so it must be good" being an officially S.A.E recognised standard.
For an oil to be noticeably different within 1 lap they must have been of very different viscosities, what were the 2 oils tested and how do their viscosity indexes compare, what was the air temperature at the test?

[ArcherWC]

Keep em coming Robert

[et al]

Yes please keep it coming Robert - most of it is way over my head but I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

[Shaun]

There is a time for flippancy and there is a time where it is not so appropriate and that is the EXACT point I was trying to make. You were trying to achieve god knows what and so was someone else and for what reasons?
I dont have to divulge any of my own accumulated experience but have taken considerable time to do so, and will continue to do so as long as it is recieved in the spirit it is given.
I have often enjoyed the comments from JD but what I do strongly object to is he enjoys the luxury of occassional sniping from a position of anonymity. That is cowardly and hardly a level playing field.
I would therefore ask anyone reading this post if they would like me to continue offering help or short articles re what I have personally learnt with suspension systems????????????????????


Got my vote for sure:clap:

[Robert Taylor]

What would be the definition of high frequency exactly? I've been doing this for a long time but have no idea whatsoever what high frequency refers to in this instance.

Checkplates can be made to work very well, with sufficient seat force they can help build cartridge pressure very rapidly, by restricting their lift you can limit the dumping of fluid, their rate of opening can also be modified with different spring rates. The general problem with checkplates is that in a traditional set up they dump too much fluid, this can be adressed by looking at all the elements in the system, of which it has many and tuning each element, its something that's far from dead.

Bending shim stacks can also be made to work well but to get the necessary seat force to stop them dumping fluid they need a fairly stiff stack which can lead to cavitation, build something that doesn't open the ports fast enough and you have too much damping at high speeds which makes the forks ride high in the stroke. With a bending shim stack system you have far less elements to tune which is very restrictive in a 20mm cartridge with a high pressure drop which makes them very susceptible to cavitation.

What is the viscosity index of the Ohlins oil, how does it compare with other oils in the ball wear test?
I'm not aware of "Ohlins use it in snowmobile shocks so it must be good" being an officially S.A.E recognised standard.
For an oil to be noticeably different within 1 lap they must have been of very different viscosities, what were the 2 oils tested and how do their viscosity indexes compare, what was the air temperature at the test?

High frequency is the marketing term Race Tech use to describe them and I have mulled over why Paul Thede calls them that and should really ask him directly. The only reason I can give it is that as it oscillates ( at frequency ) between one stroke and the other it builds damping much more readily. At higher and higher frequencies it may have more ''stability'' As with a lot of Yankee PR the reason could be corny but I will take the trouble to find out.
I was accused today of being hard to pin down ( or to that effect ) and the post was removed. Getting hold of Paul Thede is VERY difficult even if you are the distributor, so dont hold your breath for the official answer. I think most very busy people are very hard to pin down and therefore prioritise which work they have to do first, same as any busy business.
Yes we played and played and played with checkplate allowable lift and spring rates etc using a big box of parts from the Ohlins racing department ( since thrown in the bin ) Also with oem and Traxxion we played with lift variables and thought we had something pretty good.
At least speaking from the perspective of 25mm I think we can all agree Ohlins have been around a long time and a couple of years back the cartridges were changed to bending shim stack midvalve type. I think its also very fair to say that Race Tech know a thing or two with what they are doing to their 20mm stuff, and will also be abundantly aware of the advantages of bending shim stacks.
Obviously we can agree that it is all about balancing the combination of the mid valve and the base valve.. I have spoken at length with Ohlins engineers about cavitation risk with what is effectively an emulsion type system, and of course you can achieve cavitation with an overly aggressive checkplate setup as well.
The Ohlins oil we are using has a flow rating of 14 centistrokes at 40 degrees celsius and is also a very slippery oil. If you pm me your e-mail address I can forward you the spec card. The tests were very scientific as we changed oil in the same day and conditions immediately. I will divulge the brand of the oil we had been using to that point, again if you pm me. Suffice to say the centistroke rating was almost identical.
I dont profess to be God with any of this stuff and never have done so. BUT I have always trod a consistent path and am prepared to continue to put in a massive amount of work to continue learning. And frankly I do derive pleasure out of helping anyone who asks, but conversely have little time for those who are loathing and scathing of the results of any effort.

[HenryDorsetCase]

You know it big fella.

concur. even if one understands a little more than one word in three, its still illuminating.

[k14]

Yeah awesome info Robert, thanks for taking the time to share. Will be in contact regarding the info manual.

[JD Racing]

The Ohlins oil we are using has a flow rating of 14 centistrokes at 40 degrees celsius and is also a very slippery oil. If you pm me your e-mail address I can forward you the spec card. The tests were very scientific as we changed oil in the same day and conditions immediately. I will divulge the brand of the oil we had been using to that point, again if you pm me. Suffice to say the centistroke rating was almost identical.
I dont profess to be God with any of this stuff and never have done so. BUT I have always trod a consistent path and am prepared to continue to put in a massive amount of work to continue learning. And frankly I do derive pleasure out of helping anyone who asks, but conversely have little time for those who are loathing and scathing of the results of any effort.

A slightly more enlightening post, but why the need for secrecy I don't know, post the spec card on here, Ohlins specify the cst at 40c in their publically available literature, what they don't give out is the cst at 100c and hence the viscosity index, many other companies are a lot more open. A post that suggests Ohlins oil is the best out there without being specific about the methodology used to determine that fact is just spam, your telling people they have to have a premium priced product without explaining why there is such a price differential and why there is such a performance advantage.

I would completely disagree that Race Tech know what they are doing with their 20mm stuff, the recommended stacks that they supply are so far out it's not funny, you can make the pistons work but then you can make virtually any piston work.

[Robert Taylor]

A slightly more enlightening post, but why the need for secrecy I don't know, post the spec card on here, Ohlins specify the cst at 40c in their publically available literature, what they don't give out is the cst at 100c and hence the viscosity index, many other companies are a lot more open. A post that suggests Ohlins oil is the best out there without being specific about the methodology used to determine that fact is just spam, your telling people they have to have a premium priced product without explaining why there is such a price differential and why there is such a performance advantage.

I would completely disagree that Race Tech know what they are doing with their 20mm stuff, the recommended stacks that they supply are so far out it's not funny, you can make the pistons work but then you can make virtually any piston work.

I do find a rich irony from he who conveniently hides behind a shroud of secrecy and sidesteps any questions re same!
The cst is actually 15cst at 40 celsius ( my mistake) and having checked on my distributor website they indeed do not list the cst rating at 100 celsius on the suspension oil manufacturers spec card ( Statoil ) But there is nothing sinister in that whatsoever and I am sure I could get that information.
What I do know from practical in the field tests is that the flow rate of this oil is very very good at low temps, and we do a lot of racing in this country at low temps so are sensitive to this issue. Equally during the warm summer months it has performed flawlessly.
I dispute that it is always easy to get information ( spec cards), sometimes its a little akin to pulling teeth requesting manufacturers spec cards off the relevant distributors and the people you often talk to have no idea of the real world significance of cst ratings, for example.
Indeed it is an absolute crock that most suspension fluids are sold with an SAE rating, which was designed as rating for motor oils. It can at times be farcical as a reference. For example at lower temps Silkolene 5 weight fork oil has approximately the same flow rating as Maxima 10 weight oil. I personally know of many caught out on that one alone. That is not to say that Silkolene is a bad oil, quite the opposite.
Correct me if Im wrong but to my knowledge Ohlins are the only people to actually place the cst @ 40 degrees celsius rating on their bottles AND ITS A DAMNSITE MORE ACCURATE AN INDICATION OF FLOW RATE THROUGH AN ORIFICE THAN ANY OTHER DEMONSTRABLY MISLEADING RATING. So I challenge your rather weak assertion that Ohlins are more secretive when they place the one piece of information on their packaging that is way more accurate and no-one else does it. You have to request a spec card to get it, and you may recieve it if anyone can be bothered.
At no time was I specific about price but yes it is expensive, sold lots of it because it works!
Yes a lot of the suggested specs re Race Tech can be off but it is also like any valving open to interpretation and lots of experience. The Race Tech rebound / mid valve pistons that I was mostly eluding to were yes miles away on the suggested rebound spec. There was so much high speed rebound that it was crash material. That is why I was praising having a suspension dyno with a large database of runs and with some revalving we got the damping curve oh so close to a well developed Ohlins spec we have been using. And yes the end valving spec was quite different to the Race Tech charts. The rebound port size is to my mind really dialed on this piston as it doesnt place an over reliance on shimming to produce enough high speed rebound force, which often delivers an unwanted compromise in having too much low speed force. That as you know is a major flaw with the Traxxion 20mm rebound pistons, the port size is actually too big.
Sam was able to take this bike to a race track and we made only a couple of very minor adjustments, primarily because I was being fussy.

[slowpoke]

What I do know from practical in the field tests is that the flow rate of this oil is very very good at low temps, and we do a lot of racing in this country at low temps so are sensitive to this issue. Equally during the warm summer months it has performed flawlessly.


Hi Robert, thanks for your help at Taupo, the bike was much improved after the suspension rebuild, and yours and Dennis' setup TLC. Now, if you could just give the pilot a similar tune up we'll really be in business....

Seriously, I'm still adapting and learning to deal with the information that I am now receiving which is all part of the learning curve I guess. Having never experienced this sort of change to a previously known bike, in a lot of ways things just feel "different" and I have to process whether it's different in a positive or negative way.

With that in mind, and your comments regarding temperatures, I'm curious about the differences between summer and winter racing setups. I know that generally a winter set-up is "softer" but how is this best accomplished:
a) mostly damping?
b) mostly preload?
c) equal emphasis on both?
d) For the average club racer would you go to the extent of running a lower oil level in winter for less "air spring"?
e) all of the above

Thanks for all the info you've imparted here and around the traps, it's much appreciated. Please don't turn off the suspension information tap man, you've got a great bunch of junkies you are pushing too: we don't know what you are talking about, how you know what you know, what to do with it....all we know is we need it bruddah! Please don't make me go cold turkey....I can't go cold turkey....I just can't.................

[Robert Taylor]

Suspension brands and their performance will like any product and the human element of its backup be adjudged on how good or how bad they are. If their performance is either consistently good or consistently bad then at least one knows the true colours and where one stands.
Having on this site posted a great deal about my own understanding and experience with suspension technology it largely remains pleasurable to do so. Genuine people have come to the surface and asked many interesting questions. I have also enjoyed healthy debate with the likes of JD Racing, but in doing so it remains a mystery why the playing field is not levelled so that I can debate on his patch ( wherever that may be ).
Very often questions have come from people with only a small knowledge of suspension but they have sown ideas in my head to the effect ''I must go away and try that'' Every genuine person at whatever level has something to offer.
The ''offerings'' I am indeed very scathing about are those who ejaculate abject nonsense because of either a need to grow up or a perverse pleasure in playing mind games and winding people up. This is also apparent in the political threads because that subject polarises people, but having said that when I am helping people I may make fun of their stated political leanings, but that in no way impinges on the job they get!! Everyone is equal and deserving of some courtesy. Any forum is notorious for nonsense and often downright mischievous posts and yes they will attract those predisposed to verbal ejaculation. I too use expletives but like to maintain some sort of old fashioned etiquette in regulating where it is appropriate not to use such words. Nothing at all snobbish in that, my choice.
I will take heed of a moderators warning and ignore incoming ''spam'' posts with the contempt they truly deserve.
Keep those interesting questions coming guys ( and girls ) As I recall I have only refused to directly answer a question once ( ''Im dying'' damping curves ) due to sensitivity on that subject.
It matters not whether you race a bucket or a Superbike, if I can help solve suspension related problems please dont hesitate to ask.

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Robert, thanks for your help at Taupo, the bike was much improved after the suspension rebuild, and yours and Dennis' setup TLC. Now, if you could just give the pilot a similar tune up we'll really be in business....

Seriously, I'm still adapting and learning to deal with the information that I am now receiving which is all part of the learning curve I guess. Having never experienced this sort of change to a previously known bike, in a lot of ways things just feel "different" and I have to process whether it's different in a positive or negative way.

With that in mind, and your comments regarding temperatures, I'm curious about the differences between summer and winter racing setups. I know that generally a winter set-up is "softer" but how is this best accomplished:
a) mostly damping?
b) mostly preload?
c) equal emphasis on both?
d) For the average club racer would you go to the extent of running a lower oil level in winter for less "air spring"?
e) all of the above

Thanks for all the info you've imparted here and around the traps, it's much appreciated. Please don't turn off the suspension information tap man, you've got a great bunch of junkies you are pushing too: we don't know what you are talking about, how you know what you know, what to do with it....all we know is we need it bruddah! Please don't make me go cold turkey....I can't go cold turkey....I just can't.................

Thanks for that, winter racing setups need to be a little softer because as you realise there is less temperature and grip. Already we are working on a slightly expanded version of our draft suspension booklet that we handed out at Taupo VMCC. This will give some specific info on sag settings for varying skill levels and track / temperature conditions. We should at least have a temporary addendum produced before the next Manfield VMCC. ( But we will continue to try and keep this manual as brief and focused as possible to preclude it becoming an intimidating textbook! )
In lieu of that, in summer you can turn the throttle earlier coming off the turns and the engine torque allows the suspension to compress just enough to assist grip and optimum chassis attitude coming off the turns, all setup otherwise being ''in the window''. In winter you just cannot apply the throttle as early so you have to soften the rear a little to allow it to ''mechanically transfer'' Similarly in the front you cannot for example brake as late because again there is less available grip, so you have to soften the front setting to allow it to dive the right amount for both correct turn in attitude and for the rider to feel the tyre.
I have no doubt that there will be knowledgable people reading this and casting a critical eye over everything that I have said in case I slip up! But this is a brief explanation that cannot answer all eventualities without turning into a textbook. In truth its a little bit of preload , maybe a few clicks out and often a reduction in air spring. But, as with racing in the summer we are always searching for settings to go faster and faster, so its really try this try that and keep going! Its also just as much about everything being in concert with the tyres and cold shear is always something we fight with most in winter.
We will be at the Manfield VMCC round including the Friday test day and will be going out to dinner somewhere in Fielding on the Friday night. If anyone wishes to join us we will be happy to answer any questions, given the odd beer!

[Drew]

Funny thing, I have just read through a lot of Roberts posts, and he is a very helpfull bloke. I did find that a lot of stuff went over my feeble head though, so I thought I'd research some of the words and phrases before askin the man and waisting his time.
Being a mechanically minded person, I learn better with visual aids, (read, I only look at the pictures) so I wanted to look at the inside of what is being discussed.

www.ohlins.com folks. It answers a lot of the questions we're asking Robert, and will save him some time if we stop being so lazy. Then he'll have more time to build me a rear shock, and you can all rest easy knowing I'm happy.

See, every body wins.

[White trash]

Friday test day and will be going out to dinner somewhere in Fielding on the Friday night. If anyone wishes to join us we will be happy to answer any questions, given the odd beer!


Wicked! Must be your shout this round :devil2:

[FROSTY]

Robert my mental image is that the entire shim stack flexes up and down with every suspension stroke.
Isn't that a concern from the point of metal fatigue?

[cowpoos]

Robert my mental image is that the entire shim stack flexes up and down with every suspension stroke.
Isn't that a concern from the point of metal fatigue?
it wouldn't work if the shims didn't flex...

[FROSTY]

it wouldn't work if the shims didn't flex...
ea I know --but Mental image is they are like a stack of reeds from a two stroke --eventually they surely have to fail

[Drew]

ea I know --but Mental image is they are like a stack of reeds from a two stroke --eventually they surely have to fail

They flex when enough fluid preasure builds up to make them, and then from thinnest to thickest as preasure increases. Picture a leaf spring working, same shit.

They would surely become softer and fail over time as does anything, but you do realise your shock still requires servicing after ya buy it right?

[FROSTY]

They flex when enough fluid preasure builds up to make them, and then from thinnest to thickest as preasure increases. Picture a leaf spring working, same shit.

They would surely become softer and fail over time as does anything, but you do realise your shock still requires servicing after ya buy it right?
Wonder whgat the service life is

[Crasherfromwayback]

What? Are you mental?

Is there a website (Ohlins or otherwise) that thoroughly describes in laymans terms the actual physics of what a bending shim stack is doing during operation?

Yes.

I can help you there though Bruva.

They're bending.

[SixPackBack]

Robert my mental image is that the entire shim stack flexes up and down with every suspension stroke.
Isn't that a concern from the point of metal fatigue?

Generally speaking 'metal' can be bent up to a certain point almost limitlessly without fear of fatigue. Deformation is the term, and is explained in more detail here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformation). If you have ever seen an aircraft's wing flapping around on take-off or under storm conditions you will have some appreciation how reliable the science behind this is.

[Drew]

Yes.

I can help you there though Bruva.

They're bending.

Bending under preasure even.

[White trash]

Yes.

I can help you there though Bruva.

They're bending.
Pete! Thank christ you're here :D

[Robert Taylor]

Robert my mental image is that the entire shim stack flexes up and down with every suspension stroke.
Isn't that a concern from the point of metal fatigue?

Hiya Frosty! And in an MX rear shock there are approximately 17,000 of those movements EVERY lap, some of them quite violent. Given what they go through they last surprisingly well but it is something we check everytime we pull a shock or pair of forks apart. The hardest worked shims are thin ( usually mid-valve ) .1 to .15mm thick that act as the sealing shims right next to the piston port face. We pay particular attention to those. The bigger the ports and the smaller the clamp washer the less support they have. In an MX situation like that we replace shims often.
Your road race suspension should be serviced once yearly in a typical NZ usage scenario. During the Road Race Nationals our contracted riders may have their dampers pulled apart up to 5-10 times over the course of that short season, but ostensibly to change settings from track to track and to continue in a never ending quest to improve lap times.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Pete! Thank christ you're here :D

I reckon. I actually tried to call him to let him know, but his line is always engaged.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hiya Frosty! And in an MX rear shock there are approximately 17,000 of those movements EVERY lap, some of them quite violent.

And it's amazing the amount of heat generated by the fast guys!

Years ago when I was working at Boyle Kawasaki, Mark Boyle was looking after Darryl Kings bike. He was having a lot of trouble with the rear shock fading (a stock unit), and we tried all sorts of different fluids to try and reduce the fade. In the end we used the hydraulic fluid they use in aircraft susp units, and it helped. Fucking expensive it was too!

After each race, the shock reservoir was that hot it'd sizzle if you spat on it, way too hot to touch.

[Drew]

And it's amazing the amount of heat generated by the fast guys!

Years ago when I was working at Boyle Kawasaki, Mark Boyle was looking after Darryl Kings bike. He was having a lot of trouble with the rear shock fading (a stock unit), and we tried all sorts of different fluids to try and reduce the fade. In the end we used the hydraulic fluid they use in aircraft susp units, and it helped. Fucking expensive it was too!

After each race, the shock reservoir was that hot it'd sizzle if you spat on it, way too hot to touch.

Wonder how that feels on a crosser, I have ony ever noticed shock fade as less grip and running wide on exit, must be fuckin bone jarring on a dirt bike.

[Sensei]

My back header on the RSVR runs right beside the TT-X shock & have wondered surely that must become hot while riding . I think I may have asked Robert about this but if not , How hot is To hot Robert ???

[Crasherfromwayback]

Wonder how that feels on a crosser, I have ony ever noticed shock fade as less grip and running wide on exit, must be fuckin bone jarring on a dirt bike.

Couldn't tell ya. I've never been able to ride one hard enough. I was always just flapping behind them like a limp flag!

[Drew]

My back header on the RSVR runs right beside the TT-X shock & have wondered surely that must become hot while riding . I think I may have asked Robert about this but if not , How hot is To hot Robert ???

Same on the 749, pipes sit right beside the shock, and riding a 999 on the road the heat eminating from under the seat is really noticable, even at 100k's.

Time to fashion my one off GP style exhaust system and leave one poking out at the bottom to give the shock more cool air space methinks.

[Crasherfromwayback]

noticable, even at 100k's.

.

Fuck off Noddy...when did you last do 100kph?

[mashman]

My back header on the RSVR runs right beside the TT-X shock & have wondered surely that must become hot while riding . I think I may have asked Robert about this but if not , How hot is To hot Robert ???

Sorry for the thread jack as it's off topic... You could try getting the link pipe and headers ceramic coated... apparantly that shifts a lot of the heat...

On thread though. I'm slowly getting to grips with some of the concepts and do enjoy reading Roberts articles as they're pretty unambiguous... Long may they continue...

On a side note to JD... You may well be an excellent suspension professional, but you may want to work on your professional courtesy skills. Robert said he was more than happy to discuss things further through email, yet you persist in an open forum... Nothing against you, but your posts read as a big FU...

[Robert Taylor]

And it's amazing the amount of heat generated by the fast guys!

Years ago when I was working at Boyle Kawasaki, Mark Boyle was looking after Darryl Kings bike. He was having a lot of trouble with the rear shock fading (a stock unit), and we tried all sorts of different fluids to try and reduce the fade. In the end we used the hydraulic fluid they use in aircraft susp units, and it helped. Fucking expensive it was too!

After each race, the shock reservoir was that hot it'd sizzle if you spat on it, way too hot to touch.

Without in any way wishing to sound a little smug might that have been at approximately the same time his brother Shayne was enjoying the fade free / consistent race performance of Ohlins?
Shock temperature and fade is always a problem in MX and the oem manufacturers always insist on a one piece piston ring with very little ''corrective /compensating'' expansion. As the alloy body heats up it expands at a greater rate and there is bypass past the piston ring = fade
Another cause of fade is if the locknut for the piston and shimstack assembly is overtorqued, as the sintered piston heats up the shim stacks ''curl'' and no longer seal properly on the sealing faces of the piston. Also the rebound rod that is through the middle of the main shaft is made of a different material that expands at a faster rate to compensate for the thinning out of the oil, the choice of materials is a key factor.
Cheap oils and cheap shocks with imprecise tolerancing and cheap material choices will fade faster. Excessively high gas pressure will increase friction which builds heat faster. Gas pressure in a shock should not be used as a tuning tool and only needs to be just high enough to preclude cavitation. That depends on how well the shock internally pressure balances, for example an Ohlins TTX36 only requires 6 bar gas pressure whereas more conventional designs most often require 10 - 12 bar.
If the internal valving spec is very firm and there are long stroke movements fade will occur faster. An oem shock in a sportbike will require firmer valving to hold it up in its stroke, but especially on a bumpy track fade will initiate much sooner than a high quality aftermarket shock.
If the bleed job on a shock is careless there will be a much higher percentage of air bubbles homogenised into the oil and that will also initiate fade sooner. We have an Ohlins vacuum bleeding machine pending on arrival within the next month, that is another subject.
ETC...
A high quality shock with excellent material choices, precise tolerances and high quality oil will have stable performance at temperatures of 80-90 degrees celsius. Remember that as you raise pressure you raise boiling point. The right hand rear shock in the Toyota Race Series cars is especially close to the exhaust muffler, we measured temps of 115-120 degrees, some 20 degrees higher than the left side. That gave me cause for concern as the dampers are also so small and hold only about 200mls of oil. But they will go a full season between rebuilds as it has turned out. According to Ohlins such temps are quite normal in formula cars.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Without in any way wishing to sound a little smug might that have been at approximately the same time his brother Shayne was enjoying the fade free / consistent race performance of Ohlins?


It doesn't sound in the least smug, and you make a lot of valid points and obviously know your business incredibly well.

I don't wish to sound smug either, but Darryl with his stock shock was faster than Shayne. That's not to say obviously that Darryl wouldn't have been able to go faster longer with an Ohlins unit, but it reminds me of the one thing that never changes with fast racers. They'll win on/with anything, because they're that good.

[Drew]

but it reminds me of the one thing that never changes with fast racers. They'll win on/with anything, because they're that good.

Shuddup you, my shock is holding me back!

Runs off to the corner for a cry in realisation I suck:crybaby:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Shuddup you, my shock is holding me back!

Runs off to the corner for a cry in realisation I suck:crybaby:

As Robert will tell you, a great rear shock and shock setup will definately help you go faster, and this isn't aimed at you, but there are heaps of racers out there that need to be able to ride the thing to it's limits 'stock' before they need to spend money. A decent shock is worth quite a few sets of tyres, and a lot of people would bet better off having fresh tyres.

That's certainly not meant to take business away from Robert, and I hope it doesn't as everyone I've talked to that's spent money with him has been 100% rapt, it's purely my take. It just seems to me that the 'art' of riding round certain problems seems to be dying.

Maybe it's because modern sports bikes are so good. Better in fact than most of us are riders.

[Robert Taylor]

It doesn't sound in the least smug, and you make a lot of valid points and obviously know your business incredibly well.

I don't wish to sound smug either, but Darryl with his stock shock was faster than Shayne. That's not to say obviously that Darryl wouldn't have been able to go faster longer with an Ohlins unit, but it reminds me of the one thing that never changes with fast racers. They'll win on/with anything, because they're that good.

Ive got to concede that Daryl always had more raw speed than Shayne but in the end event Shayne most often had better setup and overall preparation. It always pains me that in his second season at Husqvarna ( World 500 MX champs )they made Daryl take a very retrograde step and he had to use Sachs suspension ( politics ) That arguably cost him a world title, which he richly deserved.

[Robert Taylor]

As Robert will tell you, a great rear shock and shock setup will definately help you go faster, and this isn't aimed at you, but there are heaps of racers out there that need to be able to ride the thing to it's limits 'stock' before they need to spend money. A decent shock is worth quite a few sets of tyres, and a lot of people would bet better off having fresh tyres.

That's certainly not meant to take business away from Robert, and I hope it doesn't as everyone I've talked to that's spent money with him has been 100% rapt, it's purely my take. It just seems to me that the 'art' of riding round certain problems seems to be dying.

Maybe it's because modern sports bikes are so good. Better in fact than most of us are riders.

In all reality most of these modern sportbikes need suspension work to stop chewing through tyres and this is very apparent even at trackday level, especially if the rider is onto it or has ''challenging'' personal stats. So decently sorted suspension that saves the tyres will save over-expenditure on tyres. Theres no real way of fudging the issue anymore as the ''setting window'' of what works is a heck of a lot narrower than in years past.
Nothing is simple anymore!

[Ivan]

In all reality most of these modern sportbikes need suspension work to stop chewing through tyres and this is very apparent even at trackday level, especially if the rider is onto it or has ''challenging'' personal stats. So decently sorted suspension that saves the tyres will save over-expenditure on tyres. Theres no real way of fudging the issue anymore as the ''setting window'' of what works is a heck of a lot narrower than in years past.
Nothing is simple anymore!


Yip got to agree with you there even on the SV which aint no R1 or GSXR
But the back shock in it isnt adequite at all and is producing tire wear quite hard at a average pace no were near fast but after you sorting those few problems in the front end the frotn shows no tire wear. The tire has been wearing perfectly and I cant wiatfor round 2 to race on the ohlins.:niceone:

[JD Racing]

If the bleed job on a shock is careless there will be a much higher percentage of air bubbles homogenised into the oil and that will also initiate fade sooner. We have an Ohlins vacuum bleeding machine pending on arrival within the next month, that is another subject.

They're an amazing piece of kit, I wish I'd bought mine years before I did, it makes bleeding shocks, steering dampers and gas forks so quick and easy, if I was to start all over again it would be the very first tool I bought.

[CookMySock]

I'm surprised these shocks don't have a diaphragm separating the gas from the oil.

DB

[Pussy]

I'm surprised these shocks don't have a diaphragm separating the gas from the oil.

DB

They do.... but assembling and oiling a shock is very precise, and ALL air must be bled from the oil, that's the trick

[Robert Taylor]

They do.... but assembling and oiling a shock is very precise, and ALL air must be bled from the oil, that's the trick

Very low cost shocks have no oil / nitogen seperation and are called emulsion shocks ( or cynically ''milkshake shocks'' ) Installation must be the correct way up for them to work properly. OEM shocks on most Japanese sportbikes , MX bikes etc have a seperating bladder, again that is largely a concession to mass production costs. And the negative by product of that is nitrogen migration through the bladder into the oil, turning it into a quasi milkshake shock. They are so ''mixed'' before they even arrive on the showroom floor!
The very highest quality aftermarket shocks for such bikes ( Ohlins, WP, Penske, works Showa ) have a very accurately and smooth processed internal reservoir bore to accept a floating gas piston. Done properly ( which they are ) this eliminates the problem of nitrogen migration and also is a further measure to delay the onset of fade.
As JD says a vacuum bleeding tool just does the job so much better as more air ( and its toxic elements ) is eliminated, the oil is therefore also less compressible.
One problem with floating gas pistons is that there are ( and no apologies for the brutality ) so many dumb bastards out there assembling shocks with only enough knowledge to be dangerous. We see a lot where the gas piston position is totally wrong, meaning that the nitrogen pressure rise at full stroke movements goes absolutely ballistic. In extreme circumstances that can blow a shock apart. If your knowledge is limited take it to an expert!

[JimBob]

As Robert will tell you, a great rear shock and shock setup will definately help you go faster, and this isn't aimed at you, but there are heaps of racers out there that need to be able to ride the thing to it's limits 'stock' before they need to spend money. A decent shock is worth quite a few sets of tyres, and a lot of people would bet better off having fresh tyres.

That's certainly not meant to take business away from Robert, and I hope it doesn't as everyone I've talked to that's spent money with him has been 100% rapt, it's purely my take. It just seems to me that the 'art' of riding round certain problems seems to be dying.

Maybe it's because modern sports bikes are so good. Better in fact than most of us are riders.
Couldnt agree more. Too much is made of you must have this suspension or these tyres or this whatever the latest techo whizzthingy is.
Having the latest suspension helps, no doubt, but what it can also do is mask deficencies that riders with not so much experience and skill may have. Sooner or later this catches up with them. Whereas a rider who has developed his skill and experience on for example stock machinery is usually much better placed to take advantage of high tech addons, eg ohlins.
If the riders experience and skill develops along with machinery development (as opposed to jumping on the the most advanced piece of machinery available) he or she will come out the other end much better off.
In other words putting ohlins on your bike wont make you a better rider, might make you a bit faster for a while, but in a lot of cases it can hold back your skill development.
And thats why even if you have ohlins you can still get beaten by a better rider regardless of what they are on.
I realize this is radical thinking but its my excuse for not spending bucket loads of cash so what the heck
cheers

[Drew]

Couldnt agree more. Too much is made of you must have this suspension or these tyres or this whatever the latest techo whizzthingy is.
Having the latest suspension helps, no doubt, but what it can also do is mask deficencies that riders with not so much experience and skill may have. Sooner or later this catches up with them. Whereas a rider who has developed his skill and experience on for example stock machinery is usually much better placed to take advantage of high tech addons, eg ohlins.
If the riders experience and skill develops along with machinery development (as opposed to jumping on the the most advanced piece of machinery available) he or she will come out the other end much better off.
In other words putting ohlins on your bike wont make you a better rider, might make you a bit faster for a while, but in a lot of cases it can hold back your skill development.
And thats why even if you have ohlins you can still get beaten by a better rider regardless of what they are on.
I realize this is radical thinking but its my excuse for not spending bucket loads of cash so what the heck
cheers


It will not hold back your skill at all to have better machinery. You will develop as a rider differently for sure, but it's not going to slow the learning process down.

I think of skill, as "feel". Learning lines and the like comes with it, but knowing what the bike is diong under you is key, so knowing what it does when set up right seems more important to me.

Riding lesser bikes may infact teach as many bad habbits as good.

I learnt to ride fast on total shit heaps, and had to re learn a hell of a lot before I could advance on my race bike.

[JD Racing]

Couldnt agree more. Too much is made of you must have this suspension or these tyres or this whatever the latest techo whizzthingy is.
Having the latest suspension helps, no doubt, but what it can also do is mask deficencies that riders with not so much experience and skill may have. Sooner or later this catches up with them. Whereas a rider who has developed his skill and experience on for example stock machinery is usually much better placed to take advantage of high tech addons, eg ohlins.
If the riders experience and skill develops along with machinery development (as opposed to jumping on the the most advanced piece of machinery available) he or she will come out the other end much better off.
In other words putting ohlins on your bike wont make you a better rider, might make you a bit faster for a while, but in a lot of cases it can hold back your skill development.
And thats why even if you have ohlins you can still get beaten by a better rider regardless of what they are on.
I realize this is radical thinking but its my excuse for not spending bucket loads of cash so what the heck
cheers

Good quality suspension will not hold back your development as a rider, riding round on poor suspension teaches nobody anything apart from how to crash. Quality parts allow you to ride with a greater margin of safety with better control of your machine, as Robert has said you get less tyre wear so you also save money, I've seen shocks that have completely destroyed a rear tyre in 7 laps of a track, the answer isn't to keep throwing new tyres at it.

[mashman]

Good quality suspension will not hold back your development as a rider, riding round on poor suspension teaches nobody anything apart from how to crash. Quality parts allow you to ride with a greater margin of safety with better control of your machine, as Robert has said you get less tyre wear so you also save money, I've seen shocks that have completely destroyed a rear tyre in 7 laps of a track, the answer isn't to keep throwing new tyres at it.

Over the last 2 years, through trial and error I have gone through what seemed like good setups and bad setups, suspension wise. I'm not a fast rider by any means (waste of a good bike maybe, don't care...), it's the safety margin that I go for as JD has pointed out... There have been occassions where the pace has quickened slightly and at each of those intervals I have noticed how well the suspension is setup, taking into account the condition of the tyres, age of the shock etc... Instead of buying a PC3 or throwing money at a bigger bore for more power, I have the following words ringing in my ears "There is no power without control", dunno who said it, but it's nevertheless true. So before I try modding for more performance, i'd rather fit the bike with the ability to handle it... That also comes under the guise of then re-learning how the bike will perform la di da... It's swings and roundabouts, we all ride differently, we all want different things from our bikes... i'd just like the extra comfort factor of knowing that if i fuck up, the $$$ put into suspension may well save my ass (irrespective of how experienced a rider we are, we will likely fuck up at some point)... and hopefully i'll learn from that so that should I add the power mods I won't summarily head out and hurl myself from the top of the Takas...

[JimBob]

Good quality suspension will not hold back your development as a rider, riding round on poor suspension teaches nobody anything apart from how to crash. Quality parts allow you to ride with a greater margin of safety with better control of your machine, as Robert has said you get less tyre wear so you also save money, I've seen shocks that have completely destroyed a rear tyre in 7 laps of a track, the answer isn't to keep throwing new tyres at it.

part of my point
If your skill level is such that you cant get around the track without crashing when using stock suspension, then fitting high quality suspension doesnt change your skill level, it just delays the inevitable. You will either crash or you wont be riding hard enough to take full advantage of your hi tech advantage.
Whereas someone who can overcome the deficiencies of "stock" suspension will be better equiped skill wise to take full advantage of their hi tech suspension.
The whole field could have ohlins but there will still only be one winner.
IMHO

[JD Racing]

part of my point
If your skill level is such that you cant get around the track without crashing when using stock suspension, then fitting high quality suspension doesnt change your skill level, it just delays the inevitable. You will either crash or you wont be riding hard enough to take full advantage of your hi tech advantage.
Whereas someone who can overcome the deficiencies of "stock" suspension will be better equiped skill wise to take full advantage of their hi tech suspension.
The whole field could have ohlins but there will still only be one winner.
IMHO

ha haaa, I see this very same attitude at the start of every season, I don't need aftermarket suspension, this bikes got high and low speed adjustment, I don't need to spend all that money, modern stock suspension is plenty good enough! After the first race the lucky ones struggle to climb off the bike looking like they've been gang raped by wild gorillas, they're completely exhausted finishing at the tail end of the field, the unlucky ones had someone block pass them when the forks were already bottomed and lost the front, or highsided on a shot rear tyre, they're sat in the gravel staring teary eyed at a very bent bike now with a very big bill for crash damage and decent suspension.

[Robert Taylor]

ha haaa, I see this very same attitude at the start of every season, I don't need aftermarket suspension, this bikes got high and low speed adjustment, I don't need to spend all that money, modern stock suspension is plenty good enough! After the first race the lucky ones struggle to climb off the bike looking like they've been gang raped by wild gorillas, they're completely exhausted finishing at the tail end of the field, the unlucky ones had someone block pass them when the forks were already bottomed and lost the front, or highsided on a shot rear tyre, they're sat in the gravel staring teary eyed at a very bent bike now with a very big bill for crash damage and decent suspension.

That about sums it up and another reason that people seek better suspension is it helps them to go faster. Most racers that I know want to go faster! ( and with more control ) Its also interesting to compare MX to road racing. In all fairness MX suspension ''out of the box'' is at a significantly higher level than sportbike suspension. Although it is still dependent on correct spring rate for rider weight and can also be improved substanially.
Road racing ( and we are talking here about adapting road going sportbikes for the track ) are at a lower level of suspension refinement. Its all very well believing all the pr hype such as ''race bred suspension'' etc. Thats almost as big a porky as ''I was in the back of the car doing paperwork and didnt know we were speeding'' As JD eluded to as an oft quoted example ''my bike doesnt need aftermarket suspension, its got high and low speed adjustment'' Many of these oem adjusters may as well be there for decoration as its the internal design that is actually the key factor. Thats exactly where the manufacturers DONT spend the money. Its almost as perverse as stick on imitation carbon fibre graphics, looks or function?
If stock suspension was as good and race bred as the manufacturers state then why do all the respective NZ champions race with top end aftermarket suspension e.g Robbie Bugden Ohlins front and rear, Dennis Charlett, Ohlins front and rear, Glen Williams Ohlins front and rear, Karl Morgan, WP. ?????

[JD Racing]

The rebound port size is to my mind really dialed on this piston as it doesnt place an over reliance on shimming to produce enough high speed rebound force, which often delivers an unwanted compromise in having too much low speed force. That as you know is a major flaw with the Traxxion 20mm rebound pistons, the port size is actually too big.

Would you therefore say that the rebound port on the Ohlins 20mm kit sold for the 1098 is too big then as it's an identical size?
http://www.hksuspension.nl/beheer/pdf_nieuws/2007-02_03200-27_Ducati_1098_piston_kit_web_ohlins.pdf

[Robert Taylor]

Would you therefore say that the rebound port on the Ohlins 20mm kit sold for the 1098 is too big then as it's an identical size?
http://www.hksuspension.nl/beheer/pdf_nieuws/2007-02_03200-27_Ducati_1098_piston_kit_web_ohlins.pdf

Its actually a 25mm upgrade piston kit to fit in the standard 25mm cartridges in the Ohlins kitted version of that bike. As you well realise the mass flow in a 25mm cartridge is different to that in a 20mm, for any given distance of movement. I feel Ohlins have got the rebound port size about right in that piston, as they have on the midvalve port size. Its the same piston fitted into the FGK cartridges and we have done a lot of work with the shimming on both faces of that piston with very stellar results.
We have now fitted a few of these pistons into 1098s and the improvement is huge. What the Italians insisted on as a production setting for that bike just doesnt cut the mustard, it blows through its stroke in the front and the rear link is little better than something they made to fit with a real abrupt ratio curve. The piston kit ditches / bins the original rebound pistons with checkplate midvalve and goes to ''bending shim stack type'' You actually dont need to purchase the whole kit as it sells you extra springs you dont require and the base pistons supplied are in function and flow terms almost identical to the original, albeit they are alloy with shorter length ports. Imagination and following the upgrade spec card sorts that out, but best left to an experienced road focused suspension engineer. Without exception every customer we have done this mod for has been over the moon.
With a little humility an assembly mistake I made yesterday whilst dynoing alternative settings made me abundantly aware how port size affects slope angle on a damping graph. I was working with the new Race Tech 25mm cartridges that employ bending shim stack midvalve rebound pistons. I inadvertently reversed one of the pistons whilst trying to multitask talking over the phone. The dyno graph showed a marked increase in compression slope angle and a markedly weaker rebound curve. I should perhaps have picked it up whilst I was bleeding that cartridge as it no longer felt pressure balanced, that indeed proves that there is not a huge safety window before you run into pressure balance issues.

[JD Racing]

Ahh I see, my mistake I had thought they were for the Showa forks, it's a shame they've not done more with their 20mm kits there would be a massive market for them were they to develop them more, although sorting out their delivery problems would be more usefull right now.

I've found that tiny ports have a huge impact on damping but it's surprising how small ports can be before it becomes all shim controlled in the speed ranges we deal with. Giving the shims an easy life seems to be more critical, 3 and 4 port designs allow the shims to fold easily but there are some 5 and 6 port designs out there that give some very harsh damping.

[Robert Taylor]

Ahh I see, my mistake I had thought they were for the Showa forks, it's a shame they've not done more with their 20mm kits there would be a massive market for them were they to develop them more, although sorting out their delivery problems would be more usefull right now.

I've found that tiny ports have a huge impact on damping but it's surprising how small ports can be before it becomes all shim controlled in the speed ranges we deal with. Giving the shims an easy life seems to be more critical, 3 and 4 port designs allow the shims to fold easily but there are some 5 and 6 port designs out there that give some very harsh damping.

Yeah, the images didnt really indicate size. As you may well realise the 20mm piston kits were basically one of the variations of the pistons that Ohlins used in their Superbike forks which employed 20mm cartridge size up until 98, prior to going to 25mm. These are essentially road race specific for relatively smooth European tracks but also work well on our tracks albeit with a little less sharp edge bump compliance than bigger port designs, They also give excellent rider feel. The rebound piston I believe is really dialed for both track and road as you dont have to have a really aggressive shim stack to deliver the required damping force when the forks are in the full closed position and about to rebound. If Ohlins were going to develop this piston it would be on my wish list that it is turned into a bending shim stack midvalve type. But in fact that is exactly what Race Tech have done and the rebound porting side of it is oh so close to the Ohlins piston.
Big port rebound pistons are in my always accumulating experience a nonsense. Rebound is primarily an event about controlling re-extension of the fork, as it re-extends the spring force it is regulating the return of such force that progressively lessens and lessens. If youve got big ports on such a piston you need an aggressive stack to get the neccessary high speed rebound force. As you will well realise it will then deliver too much low speed rebound damping force due to the compromises inherent in shimming. That will mess up top of stroke response and off corner mechanical grip. This is also another reason why I have suggested that we can improve Traxxion cartridges, by in part getting rid of that big port rebound piston which delivers too much low speed rebound force. A smaller port piston will require a much less aggressive and more responsive stack that will give the right amount of low speed rebound damping force. Less equals more! And the smaller port size will deliver the progressivity in force required for a rebound curve, to balance against the progressive increase in spring force as the forks are further and further compressed. Thats my handle on it anyway, if you have another way of ''skinning the cat'' on that one Id be interested.
I dont reccomend the Ohlins 20mm pistons for road use in NZ because we have a high percentage of bumpy roads. Again as you may well realise there was a preloading type Ohlins 20mm piston but it too had tiny ports. It is long since out of production. My wish list would be that this is made but with bigger ports with perhaps 2/3rds of the flow area of Race Tech. Interestingly I saw some Yoshimura pistons a few years back that were a close copy of the Ohlins pistons. As are the Traxxion compression pistons but with ports that I now think from ongoing experience are a little too large in size.

As for delivery problems I hear you loud and clear and I think in all fairness that very issue is currently frustrating a lot of manufacturers of especially goods that are an assembly of many detailed close tolerance components employing various alloys. There are doubtless myriad reasons why but I know that one of the main issues is that the lead times for ordering raw materials such as ferrous and no ferrous alloys has extended dramatically over the last 2 to 3 years. The culprit cited is that China is taking more and more of the production capacity of the steel and alloy manufacturers. I will probably get maligned for saying this but my take on it is that China is the number one producer of most of the worlds very low quality and outright junk products, for that reason Id be happier if they still only produced rice and firecrackers!!

I honestly dont expect that Ohlins will do any development on those 20mm pistons because it is only a very very tiny percentage of what they do and like any factory they prioritise what they do according to their finite resources in manpower etc. Believe me I have asked this very question!

Is the 6 port piston you refer to K-Tech?

And finally JD id like to say something complimentary in spite of my consistent protestations about your preferred anonymity. Its so pleasant to have a reasoned and serious discussion without deliberately mischievous interjections of pointless drivel. Lets keep it that way or ignore same with the contempt it truly deserves.

[JD Racing]

Interesting, rebound is something I've never had problems with, from feedback I've had it's the numb part of the system, I've experimented with the same stack on very different pistons with no comment on the performance, i've done the same with compressions and had a massive response. Some stock needles are bad and need replacing but that's about it rebound wise, I've not really had any issues driving off a turn that couldn't be addressed with geometry.

The old Ohlins style 20mm piston with bigger ports is out there and works really well.

The 6 ports bend the shims in 6 planes, I thought it would bend in 3 planes, the ports acting as pairs but the bend marks show 6 distinct planes, try folding anything 6 ways at once and it's hard work.

I often wonder whether China is really gobbling up the whole worlds raw material resources or if it's just a scam to scalp us?

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting, rebound is something I've never had problems with, from feedback I've had it's the numb part of the system, I've experimented with the same stack on very different pistons with no comment on the performance, i've done the same with compressions and had a massive response. Some stock needles are bad and need replacing but that's about it rebound wise, I've not really had any issues driving off a turn that couldn't be addressed with geometry.

The old Ohlins style 20mm piston with bigger ports is out there and works really well.

The 6 ports bend the shims in 6 planes, I thought it would bend in 3 planes, the ports acting as pairs but the bend marks show 6 distinct planes, try folding anything 6 ways at once and it's hard work.

I often wonder whether China is really gobbling up the whole worlds raw material resources or if it's just a scam to scalp us?

Well, I always thought for years that most of the pre-occupation was with compression events. But we continue to learn a lot about rebound, especially the shape of the curve and that is where you can find a lot of grip. I think my beloved Viking friends are well up on this and it is also conversant with their work with top out springs. That is another lengthy subject but too ''tiring'' to engage in for now! Maybe I should keep what I have learned about this to myself.

I hear what you say about those extra ports and the bending action.

And yeah there could be an element of blaming China as a convenient excuse. But the fact remains their huge consumption of raw materials is placing huge pressure on lead times. l think we should just stop buying their products, ideally.

[JimBob]

"ha haaa, I see this very same attitude......etc"
and nobody crashes when they have aftermarket suspension?
Little factoid for you..more people crash on racetracks when using aftermarket suspension cf stock suspension
(Just because 90% of them use aftermarket suspension doesnt make it less true)

"If stock suspension was as good and race bred as the manufacturers state then why do all the respective NZ champions race with top end aftermarket suspension e.g Robbie Bugden Ohlins front and rear, Dennis Charlett, Ohlins front and rear, Glen Williams Ohlins front and rear, Karl Morgan, WP. ?????"
Its all well and good associating after market suspension with winners but what you have failed to mention (understandably) is that 90% of the losers also ran aftermarket suspension. They could have lost just as well on stock suspension and saved some money in the process.

What this tells me is that it is the riders who make champions rather than their suspension.

I still stand by my assertion that if you cant push your stock equipment anywhere near the limit, then spending $1000's on upgrades is a waste of money and you would be better spending the money on learning to ride.
BTW I dont have a downer on aftermarket suspension per se, I have raced on ohlins, wp, showa, but in my opinion too many people get carried away with technology before they get the basics right. bling bling, keeping up with the Jones', hoping for an advantage, sucked in by the advertising,
But hey I have grey hair, what do I know.

I apologise for introducing such mundane matters to a serious discussion about port sizes, bending shim stacks and the lack of suspension investment by the manufacturers etc, so please treat this pointless drivel with the contempt it deserves.
Two's company, three's a crowd, so I will leave you and JD to your mutual stroking and depart!
adjö sir

[Robert Taylor]

"ha haaa, I see this very same attitude......etc"
and nobody crashes when they have aftermarket suspension?
Little factoid for you..more people crash on racetracks when using aftermarket suspension cf stock suspension
(Just because 90% of them use aftermarket suspension doesnt make it less true)

"If stock suspension was as good and race bred as the manufacturers state then why do all the respective NZ champions race with top end aftermarket suspension e.g Robbie Bugden Ohlins front and rear, Dennis Charlett, Ohlins front and rear, Glen Williams Ohlins front and rear, Karl Morgan, WP. ?????"
Its all well and good associating after market suspension with winners but what you have failed to mention (understandably) is that 90% of the losers also ran aftermarket suspension. They could have lost just as well on stock suspension and saved some money in the process.

What this tells me is that it is the riders who make champions rather than their suspension.

I still stand by my assertion that if you cant push your stock equipment anywhere near the limit, then spending $1000's on upgrades is a waste of money and you would be better spending the money on learning to ride.
BTW I dont have a downer on aftermarket suspension per se, I have raced on ohlins, wp, showa, but in my opinion too many people get carried away with technology before they get the basics right. bling bling, keeping up with the Jones', hoping for an advantage, sucked in by the advertising,
But hey I have grey hair, what do I know.

I apologise for introducing such mundane matters to a serious discussion about port sizes, bending shim stacks and the lack of suspension investment by the manufacturers etc, so please treat this pointless drivel with the contempt it deserves.
Two's company, three's a crowd, so I will leave you and JD to your mutual stroking and depart!
adjö sir

I sir also have grey hair and no hair but I also do detect in your writings an element of ''dumbing down'' and ''tall poppy syndrome'' now so endemic in this society. Please note that ( in all fairness ) my scathing reference to pointless drivel was targeted at some blatantly mischievous posts, I detected nothing mischievous in your posts.

Point of fact those that both get the basics right and embrace the advantages of technology have more show of rising to the top. Personally, I embrace those who strive to succeed and will help anyone at any level that both asks for help and strives to do better. ETC...

[JD Racing]

Jim Bob,
I've now locked and bolted the workshop doors, taken the sign down, first thing Monday morning I shall be in the welfare queue, I could no longer live with my conscience. All those people have had the cheek to call me of their own free will with handling and suspension problems and I've had the bare faced effrontery to sell those people things that in actual fact they have absolutely no use for, to all those owners of ZX10 and ZX6's whose kidneys no longer take a pounding, I'm very sorry, that wasn't in fact your kidneys complaining about a lack of compliance it was your lack of riding ability, take some lessons and you'll be fine.

[trustme]

S'cuse me while I pick myself up off the floor :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Drew]

The 6 ports bend the shims in 6 planes, I thought it would bend in 3 planes, the ports acting as pairs but the bend marks show 6 distinct planes, try folding anything 6 ways at once and it's hard work.


Testament to the quality of the materials to move so evenly.

I'm surprised to learn that they have bend marks at all though, my vision of them working was the outsied ring of the plates would move at the same time, turning the disk cone shaped while flexing.

[Drew]

"ha haaa, I see this very same attitude......etc"
and nobody crashes when they have aftermarket suspension?
Little factoid for you..more people crash on racetracks when using aftermarket suspension cf stock suspension
(Just because 90% of them use aftermarket suspension doesnt make it less true)

"If stock suspension was as good and race bred as the manufacturers state then why do all the respective NZ champions race with top end aftermarket suspension e.g Robbie Bugden Ohlins front and rear, Dennis Charlett, Ohlins front and rear, Glen Williams Ohlins front and rear, Karl Morgan, WP. ?????"
Its all well and good associating after market suspension with winners but what you have failed to mention (understandably) is that 90% of the losers also ran aftermarket suspension. They could have lost just as well on stock suspension and saved some money in the process.

What this tells me is that it is the riders who make champions rather than their suspension.

I still stand by my assertion that if you cant push your stock equipment anywhere near the limit, then spending $1000's on upgrades is a waste of money and you would be better spending the money on learning to ride.
BTW I dont have a downer on aftermarket suspension per se, I have raced on ohlins, wp, showa, but in my opinion too many people get carried away with technology before they get the basics right. bling bling, keeping up with the Jones', hoping for an advantage, sucked in by the advertising,
But hey I have grey hair, what do I know.

I apologise for introducing such mundane matters to a serious discussion about port sizes, bending shim stacks and the lack of suspension investment by the manufacturers etc, so please treat this pointless drivel with the contempt it deserves.
Two's company, three's a crowd, so I will leave you and JD to your mutual stroking and depart!
adjö sirDefinition of insanity; doing the same thing repeatedly, expecting a different result.
Your harping the same thing over and again doesn't make anyone take more notice of it, just less notice of you on the next topic.
Jim Bob,
I've now locked and bolted the workshop doors, taken the sign down, first thing Monday morning I shall be in the welfare queue, I could no longer live with my conscience. All those people have had the cheek to call me of their own free will with handling and suspension problems and I've had the bare faced effrontery to sell those people things that in actual fact they have absolutely no use for, to all those owners of ZX10 and ZX6's whose kidneys no longer take a pounding, I'm very sorry, that wasn't in fact your kidneys complaining about a lack of compliance it was your lack of riding ability, take some lessons and you'll be fine.
If you're gonna do a closing down sale, gizza list of stock eh?

[Pussy]

My take on suspension mods... as a road rider:
My K1 GSX-R1000... rebound adjustment was fairly ineffective, basically off/on. High speed compression.. like a jack hammer, hydraulic locked on me on one occasion(oil transfer ports in the compression pistons are very small) leading to an interesting front wheel slide.
I sought a solution from Robert (and,no, I wasn't trying to keep up with the Joneses) and a revalve and rebound needle replacement later had a front end feel I liked.
K3/K4 GSX-R1000... still undesirable to me damping characteristics, so initially a revalve, then gave AK20 cartridges a go. The compression damping was softened by RT to a road bias setting, and the rebound was left "as delivered". I hated the rebound characteristics of the AK20s. Too weak, and with short top-out springs (the flavour of 2004), they felt even worse... the front end would pogo up, especially in change of direction/elevation situations. I then decided to bite the bullet and go for a set of Ohlins cartridges. These worked VERY well for me. RT valved the compression side to my preference, and it was all jake. I transferred these cartridges to my K6 GSX-R1000 with the same results.
Fast forward to my present K6 GSX-R750. I left the front end stock for about 11 months. I did notice a lack of high speed rebound control in the stock Showas. Adjusted it out as best I could, but it was only a compromise, as it left the front end with a too lethargic low speed response. I did a trade with RT on the 1000 cartridges to a set for the 750. Robert and I tried a couple of different valving specs, and RT came up with the present one which I am delighted in.
Do I feel the money I have spent to be worth it? Very much so! My personal experiences with stock suspension is that most of the time it is a compromise. I would much prefer to ride on tailored (Taylored??) for me suspension. I'm no racer or trackday whiz, just an enthusiast. I do, however, appreciate having a suspension set up that works for ME, and gives a feeling of security.
Gassit Girl has the only set of Racetech G2R 25mm cartridges in NZ in her bike at the moment for evaluation purposes. She initially tried them "as delivered", found the settings not quite to her liking, so RT revalved them to mimic the rebound characteristics of the Ohlins gear in my bike (great piece of kit, that suspension dyno!). She is VERY happy with the results. Again, Gassit Girl is no gun racer... just an enthusiast, albeit a tidy riding one.
IMHO, why accept compromise in suspension, when the means are readily available to have the individual "made for you" set up? Stock gear has to cover so many unknowns, it's not possible to cater for the variables. It's not "must have bling", it's a matter of having a safe,trustworthy, confidence giving set up

[svr]

Do I feel the money I have spent to be worth it? Very much so! My personal experiences with stock suspension is that most of the time it is a compromise. I would much prefer to ride on tailored (Taylored??) for me suspension. I'm no racer or trackday whiz, just an enthusiast. I do, however, appreciate having a suspension set up that works for ME, and gives a feeling of security.


Theres a saying in moto-x that you can have too much power but you can never have suspension that is too good.
Now please no more questions for or baiting of RT so he can finish my shock. Ta.

[codgyoleracer]

"ha haaa, I see this very same attitude......etc"
and nobody crashes when they have aftermarket suspension?
Little factoid for you..more people crash on racetracks when using aftermarket suspension cf stock suspension
(Just because 90% of them use aftermarket suspension doesnt make it less true)

"If stock suspension was as good and race bred as the manufacturers state then why do all the respective NZ champions race with top end aftermarket suspension e.g Robbie Bugden Ohlins front and rear, Dennis Charlett, Ohlins front and rear, Glen Williams Ohlins front and rear, Karl Morgan, WP. ?????"
Its all well and good associating after market suspension with winners but what you have failed to mention (understandably) is that 90% of the losers also ran aftermarket suspension. They could have lost just as well on stock suspension and saved some money in the process.

What this tells me is that it is the riders who make champions rather than their suspension.

I still stand by my assertion that if you cant push your stock equipment anywhere near the limit, then spending $1000's on upgrades is a waste of money and you would be better spending the money on learning to ride.
BTW I dont have a downer on aftermarket suspension per se, I have raced on ohlins, wp, showa, but in my opinion too many people get carried away with technology before they get the basics right. bling bling, keeping up with the Jones', hoping for an advantage, sucked in by the advertising,
But hey I have grey hair, what do I know.

I apologise for introducing such mundane matters to a serious discussion about port sizes, bending shim stacks and the lack of suspension investment by the manufacturers etc, so please treat this pointless drivel with the contempt it deserves.
Two's company, three's a crowd, so I will leave you and JD to your mutual stroking and depart!
adjö sir

Of course we all strive to get into the last 10%, (& then the last 1%). The problem is that the aftermarket stuffgives you parts of seconds only per lap - but when compiled together this adds up to lots of seconds over the duration of a race, thus havin the desired effect ! (getting into the last 1% is still possible even for a codgy old slow bastard)

[Robert Taylor]

Theres a saying in moto-x that you can have too much power but you can never have suspension that is too good.
Now please no more questions for or baiting of RT so he can finish my shock. Ta.

Its finished and being sent on Monday!

[Pussy]

Theres a saying in moto-x that you can have too much power but you can never have suspension that is too good.


I reckon that's a good saying full stop

[Drew]

Theres a saying in moto-x that you can have too much power but you can never have suspension that is too good.


There is suspension that is overly technical though. I'm not dis-agreeing with you, just want to point out that the advice from the right people, is the best way to go.

[Pussy]

That's a fair comment, Drew, but it is not possible to adjust out built in deficencies in a lot of stock suspension, it's a valving thing

[Drew]

That's a fair comment, Drew, but it is not possible to adjust out built in deficencies in a lot of stock suspension, it's a valving thingI wasn't reffering to stock equipment, have a word with RT about wether to bother with high/low speed damping.

Even as shite as stock shocks are, Yamaha should have flagged the bollucks low speed comp damper and used the coin to get ohlins to produce something for them. ESPECIALLY if the rumor is true that Yamaha have a large chunk of interest in Ohlins itself.

[Pussy]

Yeah I reckon a lot of that stock high speed/low speed stuff is put on them for marketing more so than function

[cowpoos]

ESPECIALLY if the rumor is true that Yamaha have a large chunk of interest in Ohlins itself.

Well it wasn't a rumour...they did own a considerable chuck of ohlins for ages...but this year Ohlins brought it self back.

[Robert Taylor]

Well it wasn't a rumour...they did own a considerable chuck of ohlins for ages...but this year Ohlins brought it self back.

It was about 95% Yamaha Motor Co and 5% Kenth Ohlin, now the position is almost exactly reversed.

[Robert Taylor]

I wasn't reffering to stock equipment, have a word with RT about wether to bother with high/low speed damping.

Even as shite as stock shocks are, Yamaha should have flagged the bollucks low speed comp damper and used the coin to get ohlins to produce something for them. ESPECIALLY if the rumor is true that Yamaha have a large chunk of interest in Ohlins itself.

If you go dredging through my previous posts on whatever threads ( god knows where ) you will find some explanation of why shocks that rely on shaft displacement to build damping in fact then have too much damping to be responive to square edge bumps. Then requiring what is essentially a dump valve. Shocks that rely a whole lot less on shaft displacement ( eg TTX ) have a lot weaker damping because ( oversimplistically ) they are damping much closer to real time and then dont require a stronger force to ''catch the runaway horse as it bolts from the stable door'' That then means they have a whole lot less need for a''high speed dump valve'' further up the scale and all the attendant confusion for tuners. Believe me, such confusion also occurs at MotoGP level.

[JD Racing]

I did hear from someone who had been in the Isle of Man for the TT that all those riders who could were swapping over to PRX shocks. the TTX shocks were proving to be way too harsh for the roads.

[Robert Taylor]

I did hear from someone who had been in the Isle of Man for the TT that all those riders who could were swapping over to PRX shocks. the TTX shocks were proving to be way too harsh for the roads.

I would suggest then that either the level of service is lacking or that the rumour mill is getting away with itself. 2 ''occurences'' can suddenly be 20 in peoples minds etc. Here in NZ we have lots of rough roads and tracks and the feedback has been very very positive, backed up by a high degree of service to ensure that each shock is individually set up for each rider. As you well know such a level of backup is a little wanting in many parts of the world.

[JD Racing]

From what I can gather the service was provided by K-Tech who I'm told provide an excellant level of service, they couldn't get the TTX to work at the Northwest 200 nor the TT hence the PRX were fitted and their handling woes eased. Interestingly Anstey's Relentless team, McGuiness's Honda and Martins Honda team all use Showa.
I suppose in real life then the TTX would be ok, there is no way any of us push their bikes as hard as those guys.

[Robert Taylor]

From what I can gather the service was provided by K-Tech who I'm told provide an excellant level of service, they couldn't get the TTX to work at the Northwest 200 nor the TT hence the PRX were fitted and their handling woes eased. Interestingly Anstey's Relentless team, McGuiness's Honda and Martins Honda team all use Showa.
I suppose in real life then the TTX would be ok, there is no way any of us push their bikes as hard as those guys.

I cannot answer for what those ''circuits'' are like but we do have bumpy circuits and many bumpy roads here and have totally happy TTX customers, many of them previous users of PRXS type. Never had any request to go back to that type. Given that the setting bank for TTX gives a very wide variety of alternate settings one can only surmise that K-Tech were not embracing its use or were too preoccupied with a whole host of suspension issues over several brands. Its a case of either ''picking the eyes'' out of everything or being specialised and focused, at the end of the day that makes a huge difference.
Also of course it is no surprise that predominantly Hondas will use works Showa parts over there, given that Honda has a major financial stake in Showa. Interestingly a couple of those shocks appeared here a few years back, they came to me to ask to change the springs as there was no Showa backup anywhere to be found. They couldnt get them to work as well as they should and reverted back the following year to a product with backup.

[Pussy]

I did hear from someone who had been in the Isle of Man for the TT that all those riders who could were swapping over to PRX shocks. the TTX shocks were proving to be way too harsh for the roads.

Hey JD... never in a million years would I be giving a shock a work-out like the TT racers, but from my experience as a road rider who has recently retro fitted a new TTX shock to replace the 46PRX Ohlins... I have found the difference in compliance to be like night and day, in the TTX's favour. So far, the only setting I have changed from out of the box is the preload on the spring, and I'm bloody delighted with it!
I do stress, however, that I am no racer or expert rider, I am though an enthusiast road rider with many years experience under my belt. My .02c worth