Accidents - IMPORTANT change to the Site

[Mental Trousers]

Please talk this through with your partner and family before making your choice.

As things stand Rider Down/RIP threads are a major issue for this site because of the highly emotional nature of people we all know getting hurt or dying. From now on these situations will be handled differently. Please note that this only relates to kiwibiker and does not extend to handling anything outside of the forums.

Currently, when somebody known to others on kb has an accident a member of kb will often post a thread saying who was involved. Normally this will be removed by the Moderators until either the family/friends/media come forward and let us know or until 24 hours has passed. While this is done for very good reasons and the best of intentions it causes huge problems because it arbitrarily applies rules that appear uncaring (but are in fact the complete opposite of uncaring) in a situation that is highly emotionally charged.

Your User CP now has 2 new fields (User CP -> Edit your Details (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/profile.php?do=editprofile) ... in the Additional Information section). These 2 new fields consist of options where you will be able to specify your wishes for how kb handles the announcement and discussion of any accident you may be involved in that results in your injury or death. There is 1 field for dealing with Major Injury Accidents, and 1 field for dealing with Fatal accidents. Both fields have the following options, from which you can make 1 choice per field:

As per kb rules (the default)
No announcement or discussion at all.
No discussion. Family/friend/media to announce.
Family/friend/media to break the news. Seperate discussion thread.
Anyone can break the news. Discussion in same thread is fine.


These fields will be private, so nobody except the Site Administrators and Senior Moderators will be able to see them. They aren't compulsory but there is a default option for both (as above).

How this works is when someone has an accident and a Rider Down/RIP thread is started where the person is named, the Administrators/Senior Moderators will check for that persons preferred method of handling the situation. The Moderators will then edit the 1st post in the Rider Down/RIP thread and put in a message. For example (and this is only an example message):



The person involved in an accident today has indicated in their Profile that they want their family/close friend or the media/police to make the public announcement about this accident. They also do not wish to have the accident details discussed at all until they are ready to talk about it themselves. Please do not expect to find out or discuss the details here.
PLEASE USE YOUR PHONES IF YOU WANT TO CONFIRM YOUR FRIENDS/FAMILY ARE OK

The Moderators will then attempt to comply with the wishes of the person involved. As with anyting else, it's not always possible to do so but the Moderator team is committed to making this work.

The major advantage of doing this is that everyone has a say in how an accident that involves them is handled and it's not merely done because that's the rules.

Originally there was an option that allowed people to specify that they didn't care who or when their misfortune was announced and that any sort of discussion about their accident was ok. However, this option was eventually dropped after much debate because all of the people that felt it should be included and would choose that option changed their minds after talking to their families and thinking things through. People who are extremely liberal changed their stance after a couple of days of thinking about it and realizing the implications. So that's why there isn't an option that doesn't impose any restrictions.

Please take your time. Discuss it with your partner and family. The one thing that came through when this was being worked out is that every single person who was consulted (there was a group of nearly 30 members) were worried that people would not involve their partners and families and would make a choice that they later regret. We can not emphasize enough the importance of consulting your loved ones before making your choice. Please, talk it over with them.

Thank you.

[Mental Trousers]

Here is a quick explanations of what each of the options means and their possible affects. Please note that once information is public the Moderators can not stop people from talking about it. However, if you so wish, the Moderators can stop discussion surrounding the accident circumstances as the Police don't publicly release full details until their investigation is closed (often a considerable time afterwards). Should you agree that people can discuss your accident you must be aware that speculation and sheer stupidity will likely comprise a large amount of that discussion. Please consider how this sort of discussion will affect your family!!

As per kb rules (the default)

This is the default option, so if you don't do anything this is the option that will be used. It may not be the best option for you because it is entirely possible that the Site Rules will change. Please at least consider one of the other options before choosing this one.


No announcement or discussion at all.

As it says. The Moderators will remove all evidence linking you to an accident. They will not remove anything that may refer to your accident but does not name you or give any clue as to who it was. Please note that once the details are made public by the Police the Moderators will no longer have reason to remove anything linking you to the accident. However, should you choose this option discussion of the accident circumstances will definitely be removed.


No discussion. Family/friend/media to announce.

This choice means that you want someone close to you to tell the kiwibiker members you've had an accident. This will hopefully take place within 24 hours of the accident happening. If your family or a close friend does not let everyone know before the Media releases the details that knowledge is then public. The Moderators will, however, remove any discussion surrounding the circumstances.


Family/friend/media to break the news. Seperate discussion thread.

As stated a close friend or family will announce your involvement in a major accident. Failing that it will be public knowledge once the Police have released details. You will be stating that discussion is ok. However, any discussion about your accident will be governed by the site rules and these rules do not rule out speculation, sheer stupidity or baseless accusations. Think very carefully about how a kiwibiker discussion would affect your love ones if they read it.


Anyone can break the news. Discussion in same thread is fine.

Think very, very carefully how this will affect your loved ones. It is highly likely that this option will upset people close to you. We strongly recommend that you do not choose this option as the fallout from this one will almost definitely cause emotional distress to many. Be absolutely certain that people close to you can handle seeing half truths, lies, blame attributed arbitrarily, keyboard experts saying you completely screwed up and that you obviously were in the wrong etc, because that is what any discussion will contain. Be certain of your choice.

[riffer]

I commend you on this step Shane.

I've discussed it with my wife, and we've made a decision. She'd rather that the family has the opportunity to announce any bad news and that discussion may take place, but in a separate thread away from the announcement.

Well handled. About time too.

[DingoZ]

Well done, to all that have worked on this.

[NZsarge]

I commend you on this step Shane.
.

Ditto, well done, good move and all that. :niceone:

[Mom]

Wow! Thank you for making some clear and specific rules about this issue. We will sit down really soon and make our choices.

[Scorpygirl]

Thanks MT and others who have worked on this. It will really help clarify things when family/friends are in shock.

[pyrocam]

I like this.

[Jiminy]

Good idea.

[Maha]

As riffer said....''about time''....I dont get involved with ''those threads'' so I applaud the steps taken..good work Shane.

[BiK3RChiK]

What the others said! My husband and son are members of this forum and I would hate to read or for them to read of any one of us being a rider down.

You do a damn fine job on this site, Shane. Appreciated.

[Mom]

Huge amount of work...gone into this!

Hi MT. There is one thing that has come up in discussions here tonight, and that is the first point of contact should something happen.

If something happens to Maha man out on a ride I would want to be the first to know, and vice-versa but, we are most often out and about together, me pillion, sometimes me on my bike.

All I can imagine is one of us out and about on a ride having something happen and not being told before parents/children are contacted. That would be terrible. I know it is unlikely as we would usually ride with people that know us, and who would let either of us know should something go wrong.

The reverse of that is, we name each other as first point of call, and we both go down together, no one from here has contact details of other significant people to offer support.

Sorry to be a pain.

[Trudes]

That's fantastic, thanks all involved!!
One question... what are the site rules around discussion of details that may possibly compromise insurance payouts?? For instance, I may have an accident that wasn't necessarily my fault, is there anything stopping someone who has a grudge against me coming on and saying they saw me doing wheelies when the accident happened, will moderators get rid of shit like that?

[Mental Trousers]

The reverse of that is, we name each other as first point of call, and we both go down together, no one from here has contact details of other significant people to offer support.

You can list more than 1 person in the Emergency Contact field in your Profile. I suggest you list a couple of others as well, just in case.

[Mom]

You can list more than 1 person in the Emergency Contact field in your Profile. I suggest you list a couple of others as well, just in case.


:o ok, will go review that now!

I take my hat off to all of you that have put this in place for KB though. It is one of my personal soap box issues, and it appears to have been addressed by the site!

Thank you.

[Trudes]

That's fantastic, thanks all involved!!
One question... what are the site rules around discussion of details that may possibly compromise insurance payouts?? For instance, I may have an accident that wasn't necessarily my fault, is there anything stopping someone who has a grudge against me coming on and saying they saw me doing wheelies when the accident happened, will moderators get rid of shit like that?

Sweet as, I just found this:
Fictitious or malicious speculation will be removed without notification and the person who posted the comments will be strongly censured

[Her_C4]

This is fantastic news - huge thanks to all involved in putting this together and providing clarity and logic to a hugely emotive issue that potentially affects us all in one way or another. :niceone:

I am not entirely sure which option I will select, but I can be sure that I will be having that discussion very soon.:first:

[_Shrek_]

this is great MT
as my wife has been one who got a call from someone just after i was involved in an accident who knew me but not her :ranting: caused all sorts of shit until i was able to ring her about 2hrs later & put her at ease

[Marknz]

Good call, well done.

[Mikkel]

Nice move :niceone:

...although if it is ever going to matter to me I suspect I won't care too much.

[Okey Dokey]

Thanks for getting me thinking about this. I'm pretty much the only kber at home, but will discuss and make a choice. Good work, site gods.

[RC1]

i am the only kber at home , but my sister comes on here, so great to have the choices, well done all involved

[Coyote]

Where's the "celebrate good times, come on" option?

[PrincessBandit]

Excellent modification guys. Well thought out and extremely appropriate, given the nature of what is dealt with in these situations.
Thank you for thinking about this issue and finding a thoughtful, sensible way of giving people a choice of how they'd like it handled.

[Quasievil]

And you've still missed the point again about this mate. Nothing is announced on here until after the nearest and dearest know, or the Police have released details. So it's already public (the Police have already made sure the family have been informed before releasing it). KB is not and never should be the place for people to find out their partner/brother/sister/father/mother/etc has died.

However, in many cases people seem to think it is. An example is when one of the Wellington guys dropped his Aprilia on heading up the hill and was shot off to hospital with head injuries (amongst other things). A small number of people thought that everyone should know before anyone knew if his partner or relatives had been told and even directly named the guy despite being told to wait until his partner and family were ready for everyone to know. That's wrong.

I don't see anything anywhere in this that condones the internet clown show being told before the family/partner.

Deleted my post earlier, as I obviously read it wrong,
however as discussed with you MT I still dont think its up to the individual involved in the accident to make that call they are dead, its up to the family to advise what they feel is appropriate at the time, on the day, not from a selection of options made previously (possibly years before hand) there should not be a selection of options which offer authority for a Moderator to act on.

KB need not do anything other than delete/control any posts discussing a rider's accident until it is public knowledge ie in the media and the name has been released publicly.
KB members know how to use their phones and they are able to sought it out themselves if they are desperate enough to find out.
I just dont agree that KB members need any options on how to handle it, I think this is OTT, I think that this is not the business that KB should be involving itself with.

[Mental Trousers]

Yeah I know what you mean mate. However, the way things were meant the Moderators and the site rules just overruled everything. Nobody had a choice. At least this way we are trying to encourage people to talk to their partners/families and get them to have some input. Previously, they didn't have any say, the Moderators/site rules just deleted pretty much everything and then tried to figure out when it was ok to stop deleting things.

Admittedly some people will just tick a box and not discuss anything with their partners. Hopefully though, the vast majority of people actually consider their loved ones opinions on how this part of their lives is handled.

[Quasievil]

Ok here is another angle to help you understand my issue with this.

On the well known tragedy I was involved in, there where two deaths and two sets of families involved, knowing both the guys yourself ask yourself which box they would tick?
I knew them both very very well they would both have easily ticked "anyone can break the news" and thought nothing of it, both would probably not have discussed it with their respective families as neither saw them that often.

So using that case as an example, the news would have come out and the names would be released and discussion would then commence on KB clown crew about the accident, the causes and other various aspects surrounding the event, now the problem is this..........the discussion on this situation would have caused a great deal of problems particulary later in the piece due to the changing and evolving situations the parents found themselves in as facts come out about the incident, in fact the tragic circumstances involved a stupid act which caused the crash, one party was to blame.
I know for a fact that one of the parents is very cautious about what is now said on the basis of protecting one of the deceaseds .......now that more information has come out about the event.

So if general discussion is authorised by the rider prior to his/her unfortunate death, how then is KB moderator team going to manage it for potential future implications and likely changing moods and emotions of the parents, OR in fact as I have said should KB just keep out of it and let the family make the call, I say again, it is not up to the KB member to make this call, it is up to the family at the time. KB has no business setting up this system

[Mental Trousers]

Funnily enough, that didn't happen all through setting this up. Quite a few people were like yeah I'll tick that one but then after a couple of days they actually changed their minds.

It's been really surprising and very much a relief to see in certain circumstances people do actually act responsibly. Even the most irresponsible and normally thoughtless types have shown that they can be trusted to make a reasoned and thoughtful choice.

After going through this process I don't think either of those 2 would have made such a careless and thoughtless decision. They were both way too caring to not take others into account.

Have a little faith in people mate. They can surprise you when you least expect it.

[1 Free Man]

Being new to bike riding I can see the need for what has been set up and good on you to the moderators.
When I started riding 3 months ago I came to the realization very quickly that I could come to grief on the road K's from home and apart from my licence ID no one would have the foggiest as to how to get hold of those that need to know. The first thing that I did was load into my phone an emergency number that come up as the first number on my contacts list.
The next thing was to compile a list of contacts in the order of priority of contact which I printed off and I have it wrapped around my licence in my wallet. I have on the list Who I am. My adress. My phone number. My e-mail
My next of kin (sister first) She's the one who will have to tell the family.By that I mean my mother.
Her phone numbers Landline and mobile.
My son. Name, Location and Phone numbers.
My daughter. Name location and Phone numbers
My closest friends. Name, location and phone numbers.
I figure that if some poor bugger has to scrape me up off the road some place then it's over to me to make things as easy as possible for then to find my people who need to know. The reason for all of the people on the list is simple MULTIPLE CHOICE.
It took me 5 minutes to make the list cut it to fit and shove it in my wallet. Job done.
Naturally I hope like hell no body ever gets to see it but shit does happen.

[Racey Rider]

Family/friend/media to announce.

When you say Friend, does that mean those I have listed as 'Friends' on my KB Friends and contacts list?

So someone signs on as 'Racey'sBrother2950' and in his first post says,
Sorry to say Raceys Dead and won't be contributing to this fine forum anymore.

That may be true, but how are you to know if thats really my brother?
Seems like a lot of extra work checking up on things your creating for yourselves, so I guess we should just say,

Thank you for your efforts.

[Mental Trousers]

Have to take some things on faith mate. At a time like that it quickly becomes obvious who the really close ones are. Generally everyone kinda steps back and acknowledges that certain people should be doing certain things including letting everyone know. I can't remember a fatal accident where someone didn't let the Moderators know who would be doing the communicating.

[sunhuntin]

great idea... i have discussed things briefly with susan, but will be sitting down for a more intensive chat tonight i think. she sometimes reads kb over my shoulder, but thats it. i might encourage her to sign up for her own account.

thanks MT, and everyone else who helped with this.

[Nasty]

Grub and I sat down and had a chat ... he thought things one way and me another. Once we both had our say we decided and agreed how things should be handled ... its good to be able to discuss this prior to anything happening :)

[Joni]

Yup, Have had the conversation as well. Kick and I went for different options, fair enough!

Its an important thing and a great move for KB, it takes the decision away from the Moderators on how things are dealt with, and puts it in the hands of the people involved directly.

Very cool!

[mstriumph]

this is very well done
thank you

[RantyDave]

Hey,

Discussed it with her indoors - she voted for "family to make announcement, separate discussion thread" for both flavours. It was taken seriously and the effort you put in was appreciated. Good job, man!

Dave

[Hinny]

One of the great things about KB is discovering inteligent caring people here.
Congratulations and thankyou to all involved.

[DEATH_INC.]

Just one wee request, can we have an option for a nominated person/people to announce an incident? Some have quite a few friends so it may become a little unclear who should do it. Emotions can stop people thinking clearly in these situations.
How about an option for it to be someone off your emergency contacts?(keep it fairly simple)
Otherwise this is a good positive step in the right direction :niceone:

[sunhuntin]

Just one wee request, can we have an option for a nominated person/people to announce an incident? Some have quite a few friends so it may become a little unclear who should do it. Emotions can stop people thinking clearly in these situations.
How about an option for it to be someone off your emergency contacts?(keep it fairly simple)
Otherwise this is a good positive step in the right direction :niceone:

thats a good point. there are several members i consider very close friends, and i can see where it may get confusing.

[Joni]

Just one wee request, can we have an option for a nominated person/people to announce an incident? Some have quite a few friends so it may become a little unclear who should do it. Emotions can stop people thinking clearly in these situations.
How about an option for it to be someone off your emergency contacts?(keep it fairly simple)
Otherwise this is a good positive step in the right direction :niceone:Yup! :yes:

I let my partner know that only him, Sue or Jimmy can do it.

So if Admin cant change the setting, maybe communicate to your loved ones who should be doing the "announcement"?

[Mental Trousers]

For now I suggest using the Emergency Contact Number field. You can fit about 5 names and numbers in there.

[_Shrek_]

KB members know how to use their phones and they are able to sought it out themselves if they are desperate enough to find out.
I just dont agree that KB members need any options on how to handle it, I think this is OTT, I think that this is not the business that KB should be involving itself with.


if you read post 18 you will see why i disagree with this part of your post as there are a heap of guys/gals who know me on here but not my wife or family therefor if there is a proses that we go through on here its not likely to turn to :shit:

cheers K

[klingon]

Excellent scheme. My partner and I are both members here so we will talk about it and make our decisions. He doesn't come in very often, so it might be weeks or months before he saw any thread about me. Seeing some of the 'Biker Down' threads in here, I think it would be terrible for him to stumble across all kinds of unpleasant speculation.

Thanks again for the options. :yes: