Last guy in MotoGP V fastest kiwi [Archive]

codgyoleracer

5th June 2008, 08:05

Heres one for ya;
You put the current moto GP boys all on the same bike for a weekend & find out who is the fastest & who is the slowest in the exact same conditions & equipment. (keep in mind that this entirely hypothetical)

Now take the slowest guy from that - & heres your question / poll

Will the slowest Moto GP guy be quicker the fastest guy in New Zealand around any of the popular tracks (again on equal machinery / conditions) ?

:-)

jrandom

5th June 2008, 08:22

I reckon that first step would actually be the most fascinating one - seeing which GP rider could get the most out a particular machine.

And I reckon, on the day, a top local road racer would have a fighting chance - I don't think the likes of the GP riders have orders of magnitude more inherent speed in them; they get to where they are by consistent hard work, not falling off too often, and working with their factory teams to develop bikes.

It's also telling that Schumacher tested a GP bike and lapped within a few seconds of the GP pack times as soon as he went out on it, but when racing a CBR1000RR superbike at club level in Germany recently he was only midfield.

So, yeah... not a lot in it IMHO.

:)

DEATH_INC.

5th June 2008, 08:44

Nope, I reckon the likes of yourself and a few others here with a bit of mileage on a gp machine will be more than competitive with the back half of the field.

codgyoleracer

5th June 2008, 08:47

Nope, I reckon the likes of yourself and a few others here with a bit of mileage on a gp machine will be more than competitive with the back half of the field.

I,ve got news for you (& me) and its all bad................ :-)

DEATH_INC.

5th June 2008, 08:59

I,ve got news for you (& me) and its all bad................ :-)

Don't underestimate yourself, it's not that hard :lol: once you get your head around the acceleration and braking ability's of the things it's all down to exploring the mid corner traction, so as long as you can feel things happening it is possible.....
Now don't all get jumpy about me saying it's easy....I'm not saying that....but put Rossi on your 6 fiddy around taupo and see the laptimes.....now that'd be something....

DEATH_INC.

5th June 2008, 09:02

Oh yeh, and don't forget Stroudy mixed it up with the WSBK guys on a year old bike in aussie a year or two back, a lot of those guys can run ok in motogp....

WRT

5th June 2008, 10:38

What bike are we talking about here? If it's MotoGP spec, then it'd be weighted in the MotoGP riders favour. If your talking a supersport bike, then it's probably going to be more in the Kiwi's favour.

I reckon make it both fair and interesting and chuck 'em all on buckets. Round a go-kart track.

cowpoos

5th June 2008, 10:43

Oh yeh, and don't forget Stroudy mixed it up with the WSBK guys on a year old bike in aussie a year or two back, a lot of those guys can run ok in motogp....
not to mention he was riding for ROC yamaha in GP's for a while...amoung his many many international rides ;)

quallman1234

5th June 2008, 11:49

Definetely buckets!

svr

5th June 2008, 12:22

k14

5th June 2008, 14:17

Moto GP is a bit diferent now - all hardened proffessionals with no-one getting lapped.
The slowest (?!) motogp rider is Andrew West, who was the fasest WSS 600 rider last year when given the chance - faster than Kevin Curtain -agreed?
The best NZ rider over the last 15 years was Tony Rees.
Ask Tony how fast Curtain is.
Case closed?
Yeah agree (with half of it). Anthony West is consistently coming last, down with Melandri... Last year in 600 supersport West opened up a can of whoopass. Yeah he was on one of the best machines but he totally annihilated everyone, including Sofoglu who up till West came along was dominating. Then West went to GPs and had a few ok results. This year he is no where, although I think that green nail has something to do with it. I don't know if he is the worst in GP's but I'd say he is below average. If he jumped on any bike in NZ he would kick all and sundry's arses comprehensively.

P.S. Stroud is best NZ rider from last 15 years :first:

svr

5th June 2008, 14:19

That said the Strouds, Shiriffs, Rees etc of NZ RRing have my admiration and deserve our support - they've taken risks and made huge sacrifices to be as good as they are and I watch them race whenever I can.

Whynot

5th June 2008, 14:22

down with Melandri...

and he's not half bad either ....

Crasherfromwayback

5th June 2008, 14:26

No fucking show.

Deano

5th June 2008, 14:42

No fucking show.

Ditto 10ch

svr

5th June 2008, 15:50

Ditto 10ch

No fucking show.

Did you guys read the question?

svr

5th June 2008, 15:53

P.S. Stroud is best NZ rider from last 15 years :first:

Ah there's a topic...

Coldrider

5th June 2008, 15:53

Just look at Kiwi's that race in Australia.
Did you see Aaron Slight at Battle of the Streets in Wangas 3 or 4 years ago.
The guys at the bottom of the heap in MotoGp are not just filling a space.

wharfy

5th June 2008, 16:18

Stolen from MNZ web site -

Hugh Anderson is New Zealand’s “most capped” road race competitor with 25 Grand Prix wins and 4 World Championships.

A New Zealander has never won the world 500cc Road Racing Championship (now the MotoGP championship) although four, Ginger Molloy (1970) Keith Turner (1971) Kim Newcombe (1973) and Graeme Crosby (1982) have finished in the runner-up position.
Aaron Slight is the only rider to win the Suzuka 8-Hour race three years in succession.
Graeme Crosby won the Daytona 200 and the Imola 200 in the same year, an honour he shares with Giacomo Agostini as the only riders ever to achieve this double. Crosby however is the only rider ever to win each of the Daytona 200, Imola 200, the Suzuka 8-Hour and an Isle of Man TT.
Motorcycle sport has brought New Zealand 22 World Championships, more than the number achieved by any other sport.

We aren't to shabby at this stuff - Plus the current MotoGP circus is full of kiwi's in high profile positions - The guy that Rossi hands his bike to at the end of every race is a kiwi.

But the answer to the question is "dunno"

FzerozeroT

5th June 2008, 17:24

Slight managed to finish 3rd overall in WSB (three times!)
Stroud I think got a 5th place or so in one round on a Kawasaki 500GP
Anstey and Harris have both done reasonably well in the IOM TT in the top class :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure oour top guys could run mid-pack or even higher in Moto-GP given the money and support :dodge:

scott411

5th June 2008, 18:22

No fucking show.

exactly, they are not the best in the world for no reason,

speights_bud

5th June 2008, 18:30

exactly, they are not the best in the world for no reason,

Remember there's a fair bit of politics involved as to where some of the riders come from and who they ride for, the NZ bike market isn't large by any means and a kiwi winning race after race in the MotoGP on an R1 probably wouldn't boost sales as high as some riders from other countries...

I guess its hard to tell how the riders from NZ would go against the bottom end of the MotoGP, given the huge differences in circuits money and machinery to compare them. I'd pay money to go see some MotoGP guys have a play day at Taupo with some of NZ's best :)

gav

5th June 2008, 18:48

It's also telling that Schumacher tested a GP bike and lapped within a few seconds of the GP pack times as soon as he went out on it, but when racing a CBR1000RR superbike at club level in Germany recently he was only midfield.

So, yeah... not a lot in it IMHO.

:)

As soon as he went out on a MotoGP bike? Nope anything but ....... he had at least 5 hours on that 800, including extensive one on one tuition with Randy Mamola, including getting plenty of laps being shown around the track. Hardly setting fast times "as soon as he went out".

slowpoke

5th June 2008, 18:55

It's a tough one actually 'cos the maqchines are so different. By and large the WSBK guys haven't quite cracked the top spots on a consistent basis....but Biaggi, Checa, Barros and co haven't set WSBK on fire when they've stepped "back" either.

The MotoGP machines are closer to WSBK than GP500's but going from a purpose built race bike with carbon brakes to an up-specc'd road bike isn't gonna be easy and vice versa.

Having said that a MotoGP pilot "lives" the sport whereas the best of our guys all hold down day jobs and in comparison only races as a hobby.....albeit an extremely serious hobby for some.

MotoGP pilot to romp it in.

Crasherfromwayback

5th June 2008, 19:42

Nope, I reckon the likes of yourself and a few others here with a bit of mileage on a gp machine will be more than competitive with the back half of the field.

Did you guys read the question?

Yep...and sorry, it was answers like this I was referring to.

With all due respect to people racing here now at club and national level.

No fucking show.

I base this statement on the fact that I've raced at national level and done quite well against some pretty good racers.

I've also raced in Australia, and as the guys that've raced there will also tell you, that's a big step up from here.

You then get to the world stage (World supersport etc), and it's several steps again.

Eneter the world of GP's...and I'm sure you get where I'm coming from.

ANYONE that's been to a GP meeting (unless they're a total dreamer or a blind cunt), will realize that even the slowest guys there are out of our league.

Sad...but for now...fact.

I hope that changes, as there's nothing more I'd like to see than a Kiwi doing the bizz at that level.

Come on you youngins...prove me wrong!!!

James Deuce

5th June 2008, 19:47

I'm 100% with Pete.

k14

5th June 2008, 20:05

As soon as he went out on a MotoGP bike? Nope anything but ....... he had at least 5 hours on that 800, including extensive one on one tuition with Randy Mamola, including getting plenty of laps being shown around the track. Hardly setting fast times "as soon as he went out".
Yeah and add that to the fact that he has recently been racing a KTM in some german series. I'd be pretty sure that his bike is one of the best out there but his results point to something else not quite being there. Hovering around the top 20 give or take.

jrandom

5th June 2008, 22:34

Clivoris

5th June 2008, 22:41

Woohoo:clap: I love this stuff. I haven't really got a clue, but what my puku tells me is that the "slow" motogp guy would be quicker but not by much. I'd like it to be close enough that it was feasible that on a good day.....A bit like the Irish playing the All Blacks this weekend. You can't really rate them as much of a chance at all, but God I'd love to see them have a blinder and find some magic that gets them a win.

gav

5th June 2008, 22:55

At least five hours!

:laugh:

Sorry, man, that counts as 'as soon as' in my books.

Dude, that also wasn't his first time on a MotoGP bike either, he's had previous rides on the 990 etc. His so called times were duly debated at the time as well.

As mentioned before Ant West if you take him as the slowest, got on a WSS 600 for the first time and blitzed the field. You think say Sam Smith could do that? Chris Peris who came out here and raced the nationals has struggled to make the top 20 in that same field.

jrandom

5th June 2008, 23:03

As mentioned before Ant West if you take him as the slowest, got on a WSS 600 for the first time and blitzed the field. You think say Sam Smith could do that? Chris Peris who came out here and raced the nationals has struggled to make the top 20 in that same field.

Point.

Maybe the GP guys really do have secret shaolin buddha finger magic.

:yes:

CHOPPA

5th June 2008, 23:06

On equal machines new to both riders i dont think there would be much in it at all. Stroud has beaten bugden, bugden regularly beat russel holland who is now beating plenty of very recent ex gp riders, there plenty more example of he has beat him who has beat him who has beaten rossi well not that far haha but you get the idea! It would be very close the diff at there level between great and good is often only .1s of a second

jrandom

5th June 2008, 23:24

It's a bit like chess, really.

You can try to analyse whether Grand Master A would beat World Champion B based on the A's performance against C and C's performance against D and D's performance against B... but, in the end, they're all pretty good players, and sometimes it just comes down to a tactical slip on the day.

Motorcycle racing on the same machine, same track, same conditions... I reckon it'd be anybody's game to lose.

Paulus

6th June 2008, 08:41

Have you guys forgotten Crafars win on the 500 back in 98 at Donnington (beating Doohan)? Kiwis are faster than you give them credit for.

roogazza

6th June 2008, 09:29

Have you guys forgotten Crafars win on the 500 back in 98 at Donnington (beating Doohan)? Kiwis are faster than you give them credit for.

Every now and then someone will provide a freaky performance usually due to tyres, but its not often. I spoke of this very race with a guy from Elf fuel (been involved for 25 years with GP's) at a Motogp race in Europe. He said "where did that performance come from" ? Crafer had 10 or 12 seconds on Doohan and it was his view that he just got the tyres right. He shocked a lot of people that day.
You can talk it up as much as you like people, but we just haven't got those freaky guys at the moment.
I'll ask the question again, who's our next Crosby ? Gaz.

Maido

6th June 2008, 10:06

Dude, that also wasn't his first time on a MotoGP bike either, he's had previous rides on the 990 etc. His so called times were duly debated at the time as well.

As mentioned before Ant West if you take him as the slowest, got on a WSS 600 for the first time and blitzed the field. You think say Sam Smith could do that? Chris Peris who came out here and raced the nationals has struggled to make the top 20 in that same field.

speaking or Peris, did you see where he finished at the miller wsbk ama superbike race?
not bad results at all!

TonyB

6th June 2008, 13:57

Every now and then someone will provide a freaky performance usually due to tyres, but its not often. I spoke of this very race with a guy from Elf fuel (been involved for 25 years with GP's) at a Motogp race in Europe. He said "where that performance come from" ? Crafer had 10 or 12 seconds on Doohan and it was his view that he just got the tyres right. He shocked a lot of people that day.

Or maybe it was the one and only time that Crafar had a competitive bike under him, and the one and only time he got the chance to show what he could do?

Much had been made of Jerry Burgess “20% bike, 80% rider” statement, but even he has recently said something along the lines of the best rider will come last if he has a crap bike, the worst rider will come last if he has the best bike- you need the best of both to win. Look at Rossi- he’s gone from two years of being off the pace to three dominant race wins. Has his riding talent improved, or has the bike/tyre package gotten better?

Then again you have Stoner at the front of the field and everyone else on a Ducati at the back. That’s a pretty strong argument for rider talent over bike....

It’s a tough one eh! The only way you’ll ever answer that one is to have a race series where everyone gets identical machinery.

As for Kiwi’s overseas- look at car racing. We don’t exactly clean up in Oz in the V8 Supercars, yet Scott Dixon and also our A1GP team do VERY well. Then you have the MotoCross boys and girls. Kiwis are freakishly talented at motorsport- market share and advertising budgets mean we don’t get to show it in the top level of road racing any more.

roogazza

6th June 2008, 14:41

As I said TonyB, just no one that flash in Road Racing. But we'll all notice when one arrives, they'll do the biz with no flapping of gums. Gaz.

jrandom

6th June 2008, 14:44

we'll all notice when one arrives, they'll do the biz with no flapping of gums

Roadracing without flapping of gums?

Inconceivable.

Deano

6th June 2008, 14:53

The GP boys are just flesh and blood like the rest of us.

It's the training, experience, dedication and opportunities that make the difference. IMO.

Like someone earlier said - Stoner's parents sold up and moved to Europe to give Casey the exposure to world class riders - who in NZ has done that recently ?

White trash

6th June 2008, 15:06

Inconceivable.

There you go with that word again....... I do not think it means what you think it means.........

pritch

6th June 2008, 15:38

Like someone earlier said - Stoner's parents sold up and moved to Europe to give Casey the exposure to world class riders - who in NZ has done that recently ?

Scott Dixon's parents must've come close... But then he's another success story.

What I don't understand is why Australian riders are all over MotoGP and SBK like a rash and we don't seem to be able to get near it just now.

Stoner was part of Puig's stable with Pedrosa and others at one stage so I guess it helps to start early. Corsa and Baylis are getting on a bit and some of the others have been around a while so they didn't all start that young.

We used to be able to produce competitive riders, why not now? Is it the way the classes are organised here, the way MNZ organise the sport?

What do the KB racers think would improve matters? Apart from more money of course...

Sollyboy

6th June 2008, 17:49

Don't underestimate yourself, it's not that hard :lol: once you get your head around the acceleration and braking ability's of the things it's all down to exploring the mid corner traction, so as long as you can feel things happening it is possible.....
Now don't all get jumpy about me saying it's easy....I'm not saying that....but put Rossi on your 6 fiddy around taupo and see the laptimes.....now that'd be something....

I think your miles off, didnt Stroud have a go at wsb quite a few years back and he was not even close , its sort of a comparison, those guys really are talented its not just the machines

svr

6th June 2008, 18:14

I reckon about 1.5 seconds a lap on a 600 - 1.06s at Manfield - that'd be something to see. I remember seeing Kocinski (I'm old) go 2.5s a lap faster than the best of the rest US riders at Daytona on a 600 (the same times as Scott Russel, Doug Chandler, Jamie Jame et al. on 750s) and the penny dropped about those guys at the very top.

brads

8th June 2008, 10:41

cowpoos

8th June 2008, 14:19

I think your miles off, didnt Stroud have a go at wsb quite a few years back and he was not even close , its sort of a comparison, those guys really are talented its not just the machines

yes he did..[on a far from factory Kawasaki]..and WSB is a arena where money,technology,experienced team and who knows who is all a extremely important and essential part of being a front runner! there is a big difference between front and middle,tail end machines no question...and at that level it makes all the difference.

Look at the satilite honda teams in MotoGP...alos other teams running same base model bikes in WSBK...etc...no doubt at all the rider is a masive part...

Also...Andrew had another crack as a wildcard at phillip Island a few years ago with some pretty good results considering the specification on his machine! Scroll down to read the first news item about Phillip Island. http://www.superbikenewzealand.com/news.html

Some of Andrews Achievements. http://www.superbikenewzealand.com/aboutandrew.html

Sollyboy

8th June 2008, 18:25

yes he did..[on a far from factory Kawasaki]..and WSB is a arena where money,technology,experienced team and who knows who is all a extremely important and essential part of being a front runner! there is a big difference between front and middle,tail end machines no question...and at that level it makes all the difference.

Look at the satilite honda teams in MotoGP...alos other teams running same base model bikes in WSBK...etc...no doubt at all the rider is a masive part...

Also...Andrew had another crack as a wildcard at phillip Island a few years ago with some pretty good results considering the specification on his machine! Scroll down to read the first news item about Phillip Island. http://www.superbikenewzealand.com/news.html

Some of Andrews Achievements. http://www.superbikenewzealand.com/aboutandrew.html

Stroud got a machine that was relative to his talents perhaps , if people at that level spot talent and they are the people to spot talent then they get a better machine , so what that says to me is that after all his years in the game no one at the top on the world stage thought he was worthy .
Intrestingly enough it was rumored that stroud won some races a few years back here in NZ on machines that were 20 hp down on the opositions , and that was pure talent just not WSB or moto gp level of talent

wharfy

9th June 2008, 17:25

Stroud got a machine that was relative to his talents perhaps , if people at that level spot talent and they are the people to spot talent then they get a better machine , so what that says to me is that after all his years in the game no one at the top on the world stage thought he was worthy .
Intrestingly enough it was rumored that stroud won some races a few years back here in NZ on machines that were 20 hp down on the opositions , and that was pure talent just not WSB or moto gp level of talent

Who gets to ride what and for whom is not as straight forward as it seems. There is a LOT of politics and deals with sponsors etc. Read Aarron Slights book for a peek inside WSB business.

Badjelly

9th June 2008, 17:46

The GP boys are just flesh and blood like the rest of us. It's the training, experience, dedication and opportunities that make the difference. IMO.

Sure, but the GP boys have had the training, experience, dedication and opportunities AND they've gone through a brutal winnowing process, with some really good riders unable to break through in the 125 or 250 because they can't get competitive machinery. (Like Anthony West, until his luck changed last year.) So I reckon the slowest of the field MotoGP (premier class field) would be above the top people racing in NZ, and I voted "yes".

But, as a non-racer, I admire anyone who has the skill and guts to ride a motorbike competitively.

cowpoos

9th June 2008, 19:06

Stroud got a machine that was relative to his talents perhaps , if people at that level spot talent and they are the people to spot talent then they get a better machine ,

Nah...not how it played out at all. Politics in the sport is a big factor.

But anyway.. we'll get told off for being off topic soon.

denill

10th June 2008, 08:09

So who's the Kiwi going to race?

Melandri? West? :whistle:

roadracingoldfart

10th June 2008, 20:46

I personally dont think there is any way to guess a winner in this situation , BUT ....
If a local Kiwi was racing against a current GP rider of any sort then that would be good for that riders C.V. espesially if he won.

For the GP rider the fun of being able to take on the top level rider of any country in his chosen sport would be perfect for benchmarking his own riding and give him a huge amount of fun in the process.

Years ago when the WSB was held here the locals gave a few top riders a hard time, the same can happen now but if it lasted then thats the differance.

Richard Scott kicked a few european asses and then came back here and pissed all over the best the country had to put against him, the differance that time was without doubt the bike (RS 500)but even a good bike has to be riden well to beat top class riders.
He did the same thing a few years later on a FZR 750 F1 machine.

Peter Clifford has writen a few very good books (apart from Autocourse) and he explains a few of the questions being talked over here.

Ahhh well thats my 2 cents worth.
Paul.