MNZ request Super Motard feedback

[Kickaha]

ROAD RACE COMMISSIONER REQUIRES YOUR FEEDBACK

30 May 2008

A few years ago, after receiving a partition from 72 riders requesting that the Super Motard be excluded from F 3 class racing on the grounds of safety and that the different riding styles were incompatible MNZ put in place a rule that excluded Super Motards from competing in the same race as the F3 class bikes.

In the last little while MNZ has received a number of similar requests from riders in other classes to have Super Motards excluded from all classes of racing, other than their own class.

We would be pleased to receive a broader range of comments from riders before considering the same rule as F3 apply to all classes.

Please forward your comments to MNZ via vicky@mnz.co.nz or fax 07 8287 928; no later than the 30th June 2008.


Paul Stewart
MNZ Road Race Commissioner

[Kevin G]

ROAD RACE COMMISSIONER REQUIRES YOUR FEEDBACK

30 May 2008

A few years ago, after receiving a partition from 72 riders requesting that the Super Motard be excluded from F 3 class racing on the grounds of safety and that the different riding styles were incompatible MNZ put in place a rule that excluded Super Motards from competing in the same race as the F3 class bikes.

In the last little while MNZ has received a number of similar requests from riders in other classes to have Super Motards excluded from all classes of racing, other than their own class.

We would be pleased to receive a broader range of comments from riders before considering the same rule as F3 apply to all classes.

Please forward your comments to MNZ via vicky@mnz.co.nz or fax 07 8287 928; no later than the 30th June 2008.


Paul Stewart
MNZ Road Race Commissioner

Only a few days left to have your say.
Heres my view:

I think that removing motards from the formula classes is a step in the wrong direction. The sport is not really big enough to push away a very large and growing sector of road racing. Creating another class makes less track time for all competitors at race days and you could see a breakaway from MNZ.

How about considering something such as:

Motard bikes can compete in all classes of road racing as long as feet are kept on the bikes footpegs (killing the style that makes them dangerous)
It’s not the bikes it’s the riding styles people are using to ride them. Ex dirt riders rushing the apex in a remote or disillusioned belief they are going to find a berm or something to then accelerate out of, this is where the problems come from.

Create an all in (bike size) Motard class for those that wish to ride in the foot down style. This leaves things manageable from an event organisers point of view and keeps the numbers up in the classes.

I make these comments based on several South Island Motard bike riders that we have seen of late including the likes of Peter Byers (ex international rider) from here in Dunedin who was racing a 550 twin motard bike but riding it like a conventional road racer to great effect.

Let’s face it the concept has been around for years of road racing a off road style motorbike and YZ 490’s were used to great effect in F3 back in the late eighties and early nineties and the riders rode them like road bikes and it was safe and fun.

I am also of the view that having bikes that take different lines or riders that have different styles shouldn't be pushed away, hell if there was only one way around the track racing would be boring! In fact assuming they are ridden as discussed it forces the rider wanting past to have to think and create a plan in order to pass them, this is learning race craft!

I race a 125 GP bike and in the off season we run with F3, they (F3 riders) moan their tits off as we carve them up in the corners and are overly aggressive buts that’s the only way we can pass them as they blast us down the straights. Next they will have 125’s pushed out as well due to the fact they are different to them!

Kevin Goddard

[scott411]

before you get into the leg out crap argument again it
(my legs hangs no further out than a knee would if rode that way, it is no more dangerous than draging a knee)

i think you need ot look carefully at this, especailly the bears class as if you take all the KTM and Aprilla motards out, the numbners will be very light at some meetings,

you mention the 125 thing, and that people should get used to riding aggresive in the corners, i feel the same with motard bike,

as you have the same problems as motard, you lack straight line speed and have heaps of corner speed due to light weight, you make your bikes work in the best way,

Kevin you are on the right track, motard is one of the easiest ways to get dirt bikes riders (the thousands that there are) into road racing. and dirt bikes on street is not a new thing, imagine if Aaron Slight had turned up at manfield with a dirtbike, and been turned away because someone got upset he put his leg out,

[Kevin G]

Hi.
Its not the foot out itself, hell I don't care how much of the person is hanging off or what they hang off, it is the style of riding that comes with it. The different style of rushing the apex scares most road racers cause its "not normal". The type of bike we are discussing will stop in a shorter distance than most road bikes due to weight and the corner speed will be higher so you should be more than competitive adopting a more conventional road race style.

The major reason for my post was to get people thinking, Make sure you get your opinion heard by MNZ.

Thanks for sharing your view.

Kevin Goddard

[GaZBur]

I agree with Kevin being a Motard (OK Not an uber quick one)rider myself. At Race circuits nobody puts thier foot out but rides roadrace style. In the first race of the Burt Munroe at Teretonga a few tried for a lap or two but stopped that when everone else whipped past them on the outside. We could have run with any other class without any worries of wildly different lines causing problems. Street racing on the other hand at Wyndom the next day saw feet out and backing into corners due to the combination of right angle corners, short straights and a dodgy surface. I think that type of circuit would perhaps be the exception to the rule as mixing motards and other bikes on that particular street circuit may have been a problem??

So can I get back into F3 now please - I promise to be good!!!

EDIT::: I have emailed a version of my above post to MNZ via vicky@mnz.co.nz or fax 07 8287 928; as asked by Kickaha asking for them to consider rescinding the F3 exclusion for Motards as my opinion on this has now changed an I think we would be a benifit to the class and get some good fun racing ourselves.

I also added to the end of my email - Could you please consider rescinding the F3 exclusion of Motards for Race type circuits and perhaps leave it at Stewards discression for Street type circuits.

[cowpoos]

Hi.
Its not the foot out itself, hell I don't care how much of the person is hanging off or what they hang off, it is the style of riding that comes with it. The different style of rushing the apex scares most road racers cause its "not normal".

Nah...its the backing it in...wobbling around..of the motard guys that can't ride for shit but insist on doing it coz the fast motard guys do it,that piss's guys on road race bikes off...the biggest gripe I have with motards in the speed differential on straights...and alot of the time mid corner the motards dam near stop [it is in the style of point and squirt riding on a motard I know]...but on a SS of SP bike...or other classes...you commit to a line on turn in...with litttle room to move...then...a motard comes flying up your inside and parks in the middle of a corner...would be fine if like a 125.250GP bike rides around the outside of ya...but its not the way with motards alot of the time. But the speed differential is dangerous...no question at tracks like Manfield..and potentially taupos longer versions [incoorperating the big straight aways.

[GaZBur]

What gives - are there only three motard riders on Kiwibiker?
Why is nobody participating here???
Has anybody else mailed MNZ as Paul Stewart asked?
Get off yer ass guys or we will just have to accept whatever rules are made for us!

[DEATH_INC.]

I don't know wot the problem is.....I love getting amongst the motards and mixing it up at trackdays, and fuck it, ya blow past 'em down the straights no worries, even on a f3 bike...people just need to get over themselves and learn to ride with them....

[Kevin G]

Great, make sure you tell MNZyour view.

Kevin Goddard

[FROSTY]

Nah...its the backing it in...wobbling around..of the motard guys that can't ride for shit but insist on doing it coz the fast motard guys do it,that piss's guys on road race bikes off...the biggest gripe I have with motards in the speed differential on straights...and alot of the time mid corner the motards dam near stop [it is in the style of point and squirt riding on a motard I know]...but on a SS of SP bike...or other classes...you commit to a line on turn in...with litttle room to move...then...a motard comes flying up your inside and parks in the middle of a corner...would be fine if like a 125.250GP bike rides around the outside of ya...but its not the way with motards alot of the time. But the speed differential is dangerous...no question at tracks like Manfield..and potentially taupos longer versions [incoorperating the big straight aways.
What he says
Its the --yea Ill take the inside line then stop dead right in front of ya moves that give me the shits -by the shits--its fucken stupid dangerous
Does somebody actually have to die before you guys figure it out?

[Kevin G]

As you seem to know that they are going to do it then then make a plan and pass them while they are "stopped" If the style they use proves not to work in a racing environment they will conform to dare I call it "normality"

My logic says they do this at the moment cause it works and that is now they make a pass, allow for it and counter it.

I agree that if riding is dangerous then it needs to be dealt with, this is the stewards job. Raise with an official and it should be dealt with. There is no room for dangerous riding in this sport, you are right on this one.

[cowpoos]

As you seem to know that they are going to do it then then make a plan and pass them while they are "stopped" .

nah..on the bigger bikes you carry a hell of alot more speed before braking...whip past them like they are standing still...motards have a amzing late braking abilities...due to low top speeds and lightweight bikes...they often nick under you at the last min and stop...to late to incorperate a plan!! I can't comment on F3/protwins etc...bit in the bigger classes...motards definatly should be else where...and I'm not trying to be a arse about this either guys...I'm a dirt rider and saeriously consiudering a motard as my next track bike...I'm just being upfront and honest about the issuse..would be a similar issuse if you stuck sidecars with bikes aswell...riding style too different..dangertous to a point...and annoyiong to a very high degree!!

[FROSTY]

As you seem to know that they are going to do it then then make a plan and pass them while they are "stopped" If the style they use proves not to work in a racing environment they will conform to dare I call it "normality"

My logic says they do this at the moment cause it works and that is now they make a pass, allow for it and counter it.

I agree that if riding is dangerous then it needs to be dealt with, this is the stewards job. Raise with an official and it should be dealt with. There is no room for dangerous riding in this sport, you are right on this one.
Dude its not like that .
Rule 6.10 is pretty clear and unambiguous.
Rule 6.10 is there for a very good reason -rider safety.
The manouver we are talking about clearly breaks rule 6.10

[roadracingoldfart]

Motards belong in the class full of Motards and the road based bikes belong in the class full of road based bikes.

Wow is it really that hard to work out.

Paul.

[Sketchy_Racer]

as you have the same problems as motard, you lack straight line speed and have heaps of corner speed due to light weight, you make your bikes work in the best way,

Sorry but that's not true. Motards don't corner faster, the just get to the Apex faster, stop in the middle and get in the way.

Now all im waiting for is Idleidolidyll to come here harping on about how it's all about the formula class riders just getting upset about a chook chaser carving them up...

Same shit different day really. This topic has been debated to death.
They have a class, they can stay in it.

[scott411]

Sorry but that's not true. Motards don't corner faster, the just get to the Apex faster, stop in the middle and get in the way.


we will agree to disagree, some riders are dangerous no matter what they ride, it was never the bikes that were the problem but a minority of the riders


They have a class, they can stay in it

no probs with this as long as it enforced across the board, ie no 600's in F1, no F3 in F2, they have classes to stick to as well,

[skypig]

I’d welcome any chance to race my motard in as many classes as possible. It’s a great Road Race starter’s class and the opportunity to race in other classes might help people to commit to purchasing another style of race bike.

I think it’s a matter of riding style (and perhaps individual “manners”:sick:) than a “bike” problem.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff310/skypig/TaupoSupermoto.jpg

Personally I’m happy to race in a Motard Class when available.

Some events, like Paeroa Battle of the streets have a “top riders” race where the top few riders from each class form a race. It would be a shame to see Motards excluded.

[Crasherfromwayback]

But I believe the problem lies not in the bikes the motard guys (and gals) are riding, but how they're riding them. Too many 'motard' racers decide to have a go (and good on them for that), but really have no idea what road racing is all about.

I've raced big dirt bikes for years without any problems, but I've always raced them 'road race style'. When I raced KX500's years ago, I always had to ride in F2, and a 600cc four is way more powerful. Didn't stop me winning at Masterton, Gisborne and doing well at Auckland and Wangas. But that was done by carrying huge corner speed with smooth arcing lines...not by trying to get all sideways and look good.

I feel that the motard racers that do that have simply seen the pros on telly doing that, and simply feel that that's the way you should ride them.

That's all good on a proper motard type track...but it's not the way to go on a road race track. Most pople don't realize how fast Wanganui is. It ain't no motard track.

Pete

[Kevin G]

Absolutley agree.

Its important MNZ receive these points of view or decisions will be made on what submissions they receive.

As I stated earlier, if the rider is riding in a manner that is considered dangerous it is a stewards job to sort it out.

A motard ridden in the manner described above and as per skypigs piccy (very nice by the way) are a great weapon on most tracks.

Kevin Goddard

[Ivan]

Best Motard I have seen isnt a motard its a CRF450 with road fairings and frotn end sorry off subject but I saw it today friggen cool

AndI say Motards to Motards road bikes to Road bikes sorry plain and simple differnt riding styles and cornering speeds

[skypig]

Neat bit of kit that!:headbang:

GSXR1000 forks.

Not sure if rule 5-2 (appearance) is being adhered to.:devil2:

Also the short sighted rule to ban Motards (rather than a riding style) could also affect excellent examples of innovation like Lyndon’s F3 CRF450.:Pokey:

"Any machine complying with Rule No 34-2-3 and 34-5 is automatically excluded from entering any Formula 3 event.
Any includes all events whether they are MNZ titled events or not, this is for safety reasons.
It must not be amended or altered in anyway by the use of Supplementary Reuglations."

[spsduc]

Here are my thoughts for what it's worth.
This is a copy of what I sent to MNZ tonight.
Cheers.

Hi Vicky I’m writing in response to the current discussion on Motards running in Formula classes.

I believe that Motards are not the problem, the riders are. The practice of barrelling up the inside of other riders crossed up with their leg out and squaring off the corners that is practiced (Usually pretty poorly) by some Motard riders is not appropriate or indeed very effective on a road race circuit.

Anyone with any experience riding dirt bikes on road race circuits will tell you that that practice is just not fast.

THESE RIDERS NEED EDUCATION NOT EXCLUSION!


Motards are a relatively cheap entry to Road Racing and many riders (myself included) started road racing on this style of bike and then progressed onto road based machines.

I could give you a list of successful competitors from this region who rode their dirt bikes in a road race style (I.E. hanging off as opposed to leg out) with success in formula classes that progressed to road race machines once the bug bit and funds allowed. (Let me know if you want these names)



I believe this style of bike encourages spectators to have a go (Lets face it their has been an explosion of dirt bike sales over the past few years) and gives extra interest to the formula classes.

What is a club organising a road race meeting to do if 4 or 5 Motards turn up to an event and they have to run a separate class for these riders?

This will only frustrate riders in other classes as they will get less track time.



From a safety point of view I believe running 1000cc bikes in with anything from 125GP bikes to Pro Twins etc poses a far greater risk than Motards in F3. I have seen this at Club Days in the past and it horrifies me.

The other riders will police inappropriate riding behaviour as they do with any rider riding dangerously on any style of bike and report it to the Steward.

Road racing in this country is not that buoyant that we can afford to alienate anybody who wants to have a go.

These guys need to be encouraged and educated on appropriate use of their bikes in a road race environment.


Let’s not legislate against this type of bike. Surely if rules need to be made, it would be better to rule against the crossed up leg out style of riding amongst conventional road race bikes?



I repeat, these guys (and girls) need encouraging, not alienating.


I am happy to discuss this further, so please feel free to contact me via email or phone.



Regards,

Craig Ballantyne

Dunedin

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nice one mate!

Pete

[CHOPPA]

I cant understand why motard riders dont want to have your own dedicated classes anyway? Theres always plenty of riders

Motards racing in formula classes is the same diff as me racing in the motard class on my zx6 its not right....

[scott411]

Motards racing in formula classes is the same diff as me racing in the motard class on my zx6 its not right....

no its like you racing your ZX6 in the F1 Class,

[skypig]

I cant understand why motard riders dont want to have your own dedicated classes anyway? Theres always plenty of riders

Motards racing in formula classes is the same diff as me racing in the motard class on my zx6 its not right....

I enjoy riding in the Motard class. I might get twice the track time (I need it) if I could also race in F3. If I liked it I might end up with a dedicated F3 bike. (I’d just have to “squander” a little less money on food and shelter)

Motards fitted the F3 rules until the rules were changed to exclude them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Motards racing in formula classes is the same diff as me racing in the motard class on my zx6 its not right....

For years I put up with comments like that. A lot of 'racers' simply don't like being beaten fair and square by a guy on a lightly modified dirt bike.

Get faster or get over it.

[GaZBur]

Cross entries aren't just a Motard problem. Obviously 150's in F3 and 600's in F1 have speed differentials as well which is the real danger as on race open tracks motard riders will ride road style anyway.
So isn't it simpler to say if you cross enter a single bike into another class your start position in the second class will be either determined by lap times and allocated or you will start off the back row. Nobody in thier own class is dissadvantaged in this way when for example an inexperienced Motard rider could be faster off the grid only to get in the way of quick F3 guys in the first corner, but we can get extra racing experience and track time without endangering eachother.
This would also help keep the quick but lower budget F3 guys (who I suspect were the people who got the rule in the first place) happy to ride the current bikes they have without the concern that sombody with money can just buy a Vtwin apprillia or similar and wipe them out of thier own class.

[koba]

I have never raced in a class with motards, but maybe thats why the exclusion of them seems unfair to me.

I dont know enough about it to make a submission to MNZ but from where I'm looking at the moment It does seem like motard riders get a raw deal.
Surely the interest in motards is good for road racing as a whole.

Craig Ballantyne makes a sensible comment on it above, that makes sense to me.
At Vic club meetings there are enough motards that show up to make thier own class viable, that may be the best thing in that situation but the riders concerned know best which is why it is a good thing that MNZ are asking the riders!
I am surprised that soo many motard riders still show up with the level of contempt some "proper" road racers show towards them.

As I say I'm only coming at this from an outsiders view so I encourage people to have their say so maybe this issue can be sorted in a way the keeps most people happy.

[lostinflyz]

if motards can race f3 and motard classes. why cant f3 bikes race motard class. not to be annoying or arguing for the sake of it but everyone wants more track time.

but either way if a motard races knee down i dont see the problem with them in f3 but then wats the point of a motard class (outside splitting up huge f3 fields, which means kicking the motards out anyway)

why not do split starts anyway like the f3 and 125 guys. ok 3 split start would be hard but not impossible.

[skypig]

if motards can race f3 and motard classes. why cant f3 bikes race motard class. not to be annoying or arguing for the sake of it but everyone wants more track time.

Motards were eligible for F3, before they amended the rules specifically to exclude them. (Handlebar height and “off-road” frames). F3 bikes were never eligble for motard.

I don’t think many Motards would be competitive with a hot SV650 on a RR circuit.

Letting slower bikes race in a faster class MAY be a way of promoting involvement and letting people gain experience and filling grids.

Letting top F3 bikes win every Motard race wouldn’t make much sense.

(much the same as letting F2 600s race F1 1000s seems sensible, while letting F1s in F2 races does not)

[CHOPPA]

For years I put up with comments like that. A lot of 'racers' simply don't like being beaten fair and square by a guy on a lightly modified dirt bike.

Get faster or get over it.

So you think you would beat me? honestly that really isnt my reason for my opinion, im actually going to be racing a motard at selected events this year as well so im by no means a motard hater

[CHOPPA]

I spoke to scotty this morning about this and i have to agree that yes it is the riders that are the problem but when you have a rider with those tendancys and put them on a motard against road bikes and thats where the problem lies....

[Crasherfromwayback]

So you think you would beat me? honestly that really isnt my reason for my opinion, im actually going to be racing a motard at selected events this year as well so im by no means a motard hater

There's not too many people I haven't been able to beat mate!

You'll love racing the motard...it's a fun and cheap way to do it.

[Quasievil]

me in the market for a Motard, just cant make up my mind what to get not that there is alot of choices around.

Personally I dont want to race F3 or any sportsbikes, rather race Motards against motards.

[skypig]

I'll bet you can both beat me. Doesn't matter, I'll still come back for more, with a smile on my face.

"It's better to race for last - than not to race at all"

[spsduc]

These riders should stick to Motard competition then. I.E. mixed dirt and tar, not road racing.

If they have a seperate Motard road race class at normal road race events (I.E. not actual Motard Dirt/tar races) I fear the norm will be to ride foot out backing it in etc and guys will not learn the ärt" of road racing and never experience the thrill of knee down high corner speed racing and may never progress to road bikes.
From a safety point of view the same dangers exist if the two styles are mixed on the same type of bike.
I.E. Motards-some foot down diving up the inside, others knee out sweeping lines. Think about it. No different to mixing with road bikes.

Those who want to ride wheels in line, knee out should be given the opportunity to ride with road bikes doing the same thing.

Cheers Craig.

[CHOPPA]

maybe a tad of topic....

I dont want this to come accross as i want to get rid of motards cause they are prob the best class to watch, but i reckon they need more of there own events on better suited tracks that actually promote riding supermoto style rather then riding a motard bike like a road bike if thats what you want to do then buy a road bike.

Did anyone see the round of the fim supermoto tracks where they had pretty much sealed a mx track it was so sweet! In the interest of proper supermoto it would be good to see mx clubs put in sealed sections to try steal some mx riders to sealed racing.

[TonyB]

BEARS racing in Chch has effectively been gutted by the ruling against Motards, which is a bloody shame because the vast majority of them had figured out that a traditional road racing line was the fastest way around any of the Ruapuna track configurations. I found the bigger Motards pretty hard to deal with on my underpowered and heavy Monster, but I sure as hell enjoyed racing with them. Racing against bikes with different capabilities is fun- they could out brake me and gas out of the corner better, but on a decent bend I could carry a bit more speed than the guys I was mixing it up with, and DAMN that big hole they make in the air is handy for the draft-and-pass down the straight! Now that they are excluded, the track is bloody near empty.

As has been said earlier in this thread- can we really afford to exclude such a large number of potential competitors?

[spsduc]

That is what I thought would happen.
Could you please pass these comments on to MNZ?

email vicky@mnz.co.nz

Thanks, Craig.

[Kevin G]

Below is the outcome from MNZ re the input received from members on the motard bikes in formula classes. Bloody good I think, well done MNZ.

All Classes & Super Motard Riding Style


All class’s and Super Motard riding style.

I would like to thank the people who took the time to put forward constructive comments regards the riding style of the Super Motards.



Given the various opinions put forward for consideration of those that are for and those that are against the two class's racing against each other, it is clear that there is a genuine desire by the Super Motard riders to be included within the structure of what would be considered an accepted road race style.



Given that there was a remit presented to the commission some two years ago by concerned riders of F3 about the style of some the SM riders a safety rule was put in place excluding SM from the F3 class racing.



However following the correspondence over the last two months regards this subject it is the determination of the commission that there is to be a one year (maximum) trial period to gauge the safe practice of these class’s racing against each other with some exceptions.



If during this period (1 year trial) of mixed class racing the Super Motard riders cannot adapt to the traditional style of racing then Super Motards will be excluded from all class’s, except their own class of racing.



Therefore it is incumbent of Super Motard riders to self govern themselves, as I am sure we would all like to see this exercise succeed.



The issues are.

The practice of sliding the rear wheel out on the entry into corners, leading with the inside leg off the foot peg (i.e. similar to a moto Cross style), and backing into corners in an exaggerated manner.



All class’s and Super Motards



In race meetings where there are F3/ BEARS class races and also Super Motard class races then the genuine F3/ Bears bikes will have first call on the grid positions for the F3 races.



Any grid positions that are left vacant can be filled on a first entered (by post date of entry form to meeting) on the grid up to the maximum numbers on the grid as set by the club in the sub regs by Super Motard class bikes.



Remembering Super Motards would have their own races and that a true F3/ BEARS cannot race in Super Motard races.



It is the clubs discretion as to the class structure of their meeting.

When applying for a permit the club must consider the circuit suitable as to whether F3/BEARS and Super Motards can compete together where the circuit lends its design to using traditional road racing styles.



In the case where a circuit is suited to Super Motards only (i.e. Wyndham Burt Munroe meeting) then the permit must indicate so that MNZ will sign off the permit on the information provided as to the suitability of F3 and SM racing together.



Riding Style.

In races where F3/BEARS and Super Motard are permitted to race together a traditional road race style ONLY MUST be used.



Riders who are considered not to be riding during practice or racing within the intent of the traditional road race style the rider will be spoken to by the steward in the first instance.



In the circumstances where it is considered dangerous to riders the offending rider/s will be shown the black flag by an official



Rule 6-19 to be observed by officials, Individual rider to stop and retire from the course upon completion of that lap. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.



If the rider/s continue to ignore the safety of themselves or fellow riders they may be barred from competing in the remainder of that meeting this infringement to be recorded in the riders log book.



Regards

Paul Stewart

Road Race Commissioner.

[lostinflyz]

sounds like logic prevailed. that must be a first. whats the world coming to?

[gav]

The practice of sliding the rear wheel out on the entry into corners, leading with the inside leg off the foot peg (i.e. similar to a moto Cross style), and backing into corners in an exaggerated manner.

Now if you took the MX reference out doesn't this describe how Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner ride? Inside foot off the peg, rear wheel out of line and sliding into corners? Just a thought ....... :corn:

[GaZBur]

Thanks for posting that Kevin. That sounds cool if I understand it correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Motards are allowed to ride in F3 provided:

there is enough room numbers wise on the grid to accomodate them
they ride in a compatabale manner to F3
the start position on the grid must be behind all genuine F3 entrants
the club running the meeting does not deem the circuit unsuitable to SM and F3 to compete together (such as tight street circuits).
We keep our noses clean and don't create excuses to get us excluded again
That is actually reasonable. So when the grid is full as it appered to be at Rnd 1 Levels Winter series we are out, but if F3 numbers are low we can get some extra racing.

One of the things mentioned by Paul Stewart is almost exactly what I put in my submission, does that mean that riders opinions are actually listened to?!?!? Fan-bloody-tastic!

[skypig]

Sounds very fair and reasonable but..... I'm off to OZ :Playnice:

[lostinflyz]

The practice of sliding the rear wheel out on the entry into corners, leading with the inside leg off the foot peg (i.e. similar to a moto Cross style), and backing into corners in an exaggerated manner.

Now if you took the MX reference out doesn't this describe how Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner ride? Inside foot off the peg, rear wheel out of line and sliding into corners? Just a thought ....... :corn:

sure does if he then picks his foot back onto the bike, knee (and damn nearly elbow) slides the corner. in which case no F3 racer will be near him so who cares.

its the carrying the leg through the corner where there are problems. a slidy arse foot off style works on a motard track in a parking lot, not a big long cornered proper race track

[gav]

Well, it sounded more like the problems were caused by "parking" the bike in the corners, and backing it in, rather than the foot out? As someone else pointed out, a foot out is no wider than a lot of riders knee out?

[scott411]

Well, it sounded more like the problems were caused by "parking" the bike in the corners, and backing it in, rather than the foot out? As someone else pointed out, a foot out is no wider than a lot of riders knee out?

fair call, it is the line taken rather than the foot off the peg that is the problem,

i think the change of ruling is good though, it is much more rider based rather than penalising every motard rider for a fews actions

[scorry]

I love the idea, but im thinking that motards will have to be in their own class anyway due to it really taking off.
Was at levels in the weekend and there was 25 in the motard class, 19 at round 1 in the wet.

[CHOPPA]

Im glad i dont ride f3......

[TonyB]

Well done MNZ. Good to see sense prevailing in this country for once!

Well, we had an ALL IN at the end of the last Chch BEARS meet, and Motards were allowed in. They abided by the rules and left the front of the grid clear (I actually thought they were just being polite...I was trying to get them to move up:rolleyes:- reason given below) It was great to have them back, it was the best race of the day!

I can see a potential problem with the rules though- the bit where Motards have to start at the back. A Motards key strength is its light weight, which gives them the ability get off the line quickly, but more importantly to brake very late, very hard and very deep compared to a road bike. This could make the first corner veeeerrry interesting. Personally I would rather have the grid sorted on form (lap times or finishing positions), because it could get bloody hairy in the first few turns.

[Morcs]

FFS Its only because sports bikes dont like seeing a motard go round the outside of them.

Id race my motard if it was allowed in F3 - so i can race with a lot of people I know, whearas If i was forced into a motard only class, id have to throw my tard away and go spend a fortune on a 450 machine just to be competitive.

[CHOPPA]

FFS Its only because sports bikes dont like seeing a motard go round the outside of them.

Id race my motard if it was allowed in F3 - so i can race with a lot of people I know, whearas If i was forced into a motard only class, id have to throw my tard away and go spend a fortune on a 450 machine just to be competitive.

Id like to see that

[GaZBur]

I see the announcement is up on the MNZ website. It looks like a bit of thought went into it and taking consideration of riders views.

http://www.mnz.co.nz/newsDetail.aspx?SectionID=29&ArticleID=28345

[GaZBur]

Sorry to drag up this thread again but here are the updates I am aware of-

MNZ announcement http://www.mnz.co.nz/newsDetail.aspx?SectionID=29&ArticleID=28930
MOTARDS CLARIFICATION


NOVEMBER 10, 2008: Under MNZ <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:STOCKTICKER w:st="on">GCR</ST1:STOCKTICKER>: Motards are now able to compete in Road Race classes, HOWEVER, Motards MUST ride in Road Race Style when competing in ANY road race class other than the Motards classes, i.e. Feet must remain on footpegs. <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
In the Motard classes, Motard style riding is encouraged.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
The penalty for riding Motard Style in Road race Classes is exclusion/disqualification from that race and cancellation of entries in all but Motard classes at that race event. Licenses will be endorsed and competitor infringement notices will be issued in the case of exclusion/disqualification.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
Please also read the MNZ web site August News ( Archive) Super Motard Riding Style.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
NOTE, It is the clubs discretion as to the structure of their meetings


August news archive mentioned above.
http://www.mnz.co.nz/newsDetail.aspx?SectionID=29&ArticleID=28345
SUPER MOTARD RIDING STYLE


Regarding all classes and Super Motard riding style.
MNZ road-race commissioner Paul Stewart thanks all the people who took the time to put forward constructive comments regards the riding style of the Super Motards.

Given the various opinions put forward for consideration of those that are for and those that are against the two class's racing against each other, it is clear that there is a genuine desire by the Super Motard riders to be included within the structure of what would be considered an accepted road race style.

Given that there was a remit presented to the commission some two years ago by concerned riders of F3 about the style of some the SM riders a safety rule was put in place excluding SM from the F3 class racing.

However following the correspondence over the last two months regards this subject it is the determination of the commission that there is to be a one year (maximum) trial period to gauge the safe practice of these class’s racing against each other with some exceptions.

If during this period (1 year trial) of mixed class racing the Super Motard riders cannot adapt to the traditional style of racing then Super Motards will be excluded from all class’s, except their own class of racing.

Therefore it is incumbent of Super Motard riders to self govern themselves, as I am sure we would all like to see this exercise succeed.

The issues are.
The practice of sliding the rear wheel out on the entry into corners, leading with the inside leg off the foot peg (i.e. similar to a moto Cross style), and backing into corners in an exaggerated manner.

All class’s and Super Motards

In race meetings where there are F3/ BEARS class races and also Super Motard class races then the genuine F3/ Bears bikes will have first call on the grid positions for the F3 races.

Any grid positions that are left vacant can be filled on a first entered (by post date of entry form to meeting) on the grid up to the maximum numbers on the grid as set by the club in the sub regs by Super Motard class bikes.

Remembering Super Motards would have their own races and that a true F3/ BEARS cannot race in Super Motard races.

It is the clubs discretion as to the class structure of their meeting.
When applying for a permit the club must consider the circuit suitable as to whether F3/BEARS and Super Motards can compete together where the circuit lends its design to using traditional road racing styles.

In the case where a circuit is suited to Super Motards only (i.e. Wyndham Burt Munroe meeting) then the permit must indicate so that MNZ will sign off the permit on the information provided as to the suitability of F3 and SM racing together.

Riding Style.
In races where F3/BEARS and Super Motard are permitted to race together a traditional road race style ONLY MUST be used.

Riders who are considered not to be riding during practice or racing within the intent of the traditional road race style the rider will be spoken to by the steward in the first instance.

In the circumstances where it is considered dangerous to riders the offending rider/s will be shown the black flag by an official

Rule 6-19 to be observed by officials, Individual rider to stop and retire from the course upon completion of that lap. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.

If the rider/s continue to ignore the safety of themselves or fellow riders they may be barred from competing in the remainder of that meeting this infringement to be recorded in the riders log book.

Regards
Paul Stewart
Road Race Commissioner.