Countersteering, huh?

[CB ARGH]

Hey guys,

I'm new, and I'm interested in countersteering. Now I understand that this is when you lean the motorcycle over whilst turning the corner, okay, I understand that. What I don't understand is how you'd push the left handlebar if you want to go left, wouldn't that turn the bike right?

I'm confused, help!:(

[DEATH_INC.]

Yes it does, but the bottom of the tyre goes right, that makes the bike fall left....think of it like pulling a rug from under your feet, pull it left, you fall to the right, pull it right and you fall left...

[Usarka]

do a search young jedi, your answers will be...ummm...answered.


its a gyrosopic effect. if you turn a spinning disk on its horizontal axis it tips in the opposite direction on the vertical axis. i think there is also an element of drag involved too, but i'm just a stupid potatoe. mmmmm, tower.......

BTW - it only works above a magical number of km/hr. that secret number is only known by the shaolin buddha finger. be praised!

[James Deuce]

It does indeed turn the wheel to the right and causes the bike to roll around the curve of the tyre profile - to the left. This makes the bike lean to the left and makes the bike attempt to travel in a circle whose circumference depends on the angle of lean and the velocity at which you are traveling.

Some people will be along soon to confuse you and attempt to discourage you from believing in the magic of counter steering.

[alanzs]

Yes it does, but the bottom of the tyre goes right, that makes the bike fall left....

Perfect answer without the tedium of having to explain inertia, the laws of physics, traction, etc.... :cool:

[yod]

try it, then you'll feel what they're talking about

[CB ARGH]

I hate science.

Might give it a go on the push bike (don't have a bike at the moment). In motocross I never did the above and got a lean into the corner... is it a thing that you just do without realising perhaps? I honestly don't know :p

[James Deuce]

You'll need to be doing more than 20 km/hr or so for it work. Depends on the rake and trail of your pushie's front end geometry.

The other thing you can do is take your front wheel off, hold it by the axle nuts and get some one to spin it really fast. Try turning left and feel it fall to the right.

[Usarka]

You'll need to be doing more than 20 km/hr or so for it work.

Praise be the secret shaolin buddha finger.


It likely is a thing you do without realising. Stand up like you're holding the bars and lean to one side. weight goes onto the inside arm so its quite possible that this transfers into the bars. I've also been drinking authentic english cider.....

[CB ARGH]

Haha cheers guys... Might leave it for when I've got a bit of on road experience. Absolutely can not wait for a bike. Have got my eyes on a CBR250, are they two or four stroke?

[Hitcher]

Gahh! A countersteering thread!

Bring on the Luddites!

[Hitcher]

CBR250, are they two or four stroke?

The "R" designation means four-stroke.

[Usarka]

The "R" designation means four-stroke.

isn't an nsr a 2 banger?

[CB ARGH]

Four eh... Sweet. Thanks

[XP@]

Countersteering - Short explanation (http://vf750fd.com/blurbs/counter.html)

[yod]

Gahh! A countersteering thread!

Bring on the Luddites!
i always preferred pedals....

isn't an nsr a 2 banger?

indeed it was/is/are/were

[Snakeman]

CBR250, are they two or four stroke?

'CB' have always been 4-strokes, even back in the late '60s and '70s

The 'R' has been added to a number of bikes since the '80s and has nothing to do with being a 2 stroke or 4 stroke, but more do do with being a sports bike or race type model

[CB ARGH]

The R in the name makes it go faster.

Pity all of the stupid cage hoones think that and go get themselves killed.

dikheads.

[Hitcher]

The 'R' has been added to a number of bikes since the '80s and has nothing to do with being a 2 stroke or 4 stroke, but more do do with being a sports bike or race type model

Killjoy. (sulks off to find another gullible newbie)

[Snakeman]

Killjoy. (sulks off to find another gullible newbie)

:yes: sorry :rolleyes:

[Usarka]

:yes: sorry :rolleyes:

That's hissssssterical......

(sigh sorry)

[CookMySock]

Get out on a clear road with no other vehicles around. Ride along in the LEFT half-lane (left-side wheel marks the cars leave) and try it. Do it on a STRAIGHT road. Stay in your left-hand lane - dont cross the center line.

Set your speed at about 80k's. Sit up a bit so theres no weight on the bars - don't lean on them. Relax your LEFT arm completely (still hold onto the bar) and push gently FORWARD NOT DOWN with your RIGHT ARM. Note the wheels dart quite swiftly to the left, and the bike moves to the right.

Rinse and repeat the opposite way ; relax your RIGHT arm completely and push FORWARD with your LEFT arm. The bike quite abruptly moves to the left.

Try taking some corners this way. Don't try going fast. Sit inline with the BIKE at all times. You don't need to physically lean in any direction - let the bike do the work.

DB
p.s. I just got offered a job as a motorcycle trainer.. should I take it ?

[Mom]

The 'R' has been added to a number of bikes since the '80s and has nothing to do with being a 2 stroke or 4 stroke, but more do do with being a sports bike or race type model

Rubbish! 'R' represents really reasonable retro refits resembling a racey ride.
Sheesh!

Killjoy. (sulks off to find another gullible newbie)
I am disappointed. You give in so easily these days.

[dubshack]

Countersteering is something that we teach at the Superbike school. The only way to turn a bike is via countersteering. The myth of putting weight on one or the other peg is pure BS. We had a bike in the UK and the USA that proved this. A lot of people throw their weight around to turn the bike and in the process of doing this they end up pulling on the outside bar which is the same as pushing on the inside bar. This however doesn't have the same control as pushing on the inside bar. The process is simply to push on the inside bar and then relax. Sustained pressure will cause the front end to tuck or understeer.
And by the way don't try this on the road at 80kph. Try an empty car park at about 30-40kph and be ready for the bike to drop quickly.
You will also find that trying this on a push bike may not work as the weight of the front wheel combined with the speed achievable might not be enough for the forks to act as a lever as is required for the frame to be pulled into the turn.
I hope this helps.

[jrandom]

Countersteering is something that we teach at the Superbike school.

Superbike School, eh? I like the advanced focus on racecraft you portray, there.

:yes:


The only way to turn a bike is via countersteering. The myth of putting weight on one or the other peg is pure BS.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Y'see, earlier today, I was riding down a not-very-steep hill in top gear with both hands off the bars and on my hips, steering the bike around a corner and weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body.

Obviously, I was hallucinating.

[Snakeman]

The myth of putting weight on one or the other peg is pure BS.



Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Y'see, earlier today, I was riding down a not-very-steep hill in top gear with both hands off the bars and on my hips, steering the bike around a corner and weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body.

Obviously, I was hallucinating.

:girlfight: :corn:

[dubshack]

Superbike School, eh? I like the advanced focus on racecraft you portray, there.

:yes:



Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Y'see, earlier today, I was riding down a not-very-steep hill in top gear with both hands off the bars and on my hips, steering the bike around a corner and weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body.

Obviously, I was hallucinating.

You can achieve a sway by doing this but you wont get the bike to turn a corner. The bike we used to prove this had a second set of handlebars that was connected to the fairing and not the forks. Once you get to speed you hold the other set of bars and try to turn it. A gentle sway is all that is possible. Trust me we were jumping on the pegs to turn it and only a sway was possible. The bike may gentle fall into a turn as speed decreases but that is about it.

[jrandom]

You can achieve a sway by doing this but you wont get the bike to turn a corner.

So you're telling me that I really did imagine turning that corner with my hands off the bars?

:shit:

Gosh, now I'm worried that I was hallucinating.

Would you like me to go back and film myself riding around a corner with my hands off the bars?

Actually, maybe I should, y'know. Just to help patch this sudden rip that's opening up in the fabric of reality around me as I realise that I've performed the physically impossible.

[Usarka]

Unless there is an error in the test scenario........:shifty:

[Snakeman]

The bike may gentle fall into a turn as speed decreases but that is about it.


So you're telling me that I really did imagine turning that corner with my hands off the bars?

:shit:

Gosh, now I'm worried that I was hallucinating.

Would you like me to go back and film myself riding around a corner with my hands off the bars?


:girlfight: :corn:

[Dakara]

Some more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering


Countersteering is the name given to the counter-intuitive technique used by cyclists and motorcyclists to turn corners. It is the only way a rider can cause the lean that a single-track vehicle must have in order to negotiate a turn successfully....


No hands

This is how countersteering works when riding no-hands. In order to turn left, a rider applies a momentary torque, either at the seat via the legs or in the torso that causes the bike itself to lean to the right. The combined center of mass of the bike and rider is only lowered, of course. However, if the front of the bike is free to swivel about its steering axis, the lean to the right will cause it to steer to the right by some combination of gyroscopic precession, ground reaction forces, gravitational force on an off-axis center of mass, or simply the inertia of an off-axis center of mass, depending on the exact geometry and mass distribution of the particular bike, and the amount of torque and the speed at which it is applied.[1][4]

This countersteering to the right causes the ground contact to move to the right of the center of mass, as the bike moves forward, thus generating a leftward lean. Finally the front end steers to the left and the bike enters the left turn. The amount of leftward steering necessary to balance the leftward lean appropriate for the forward speed and radius of the turn is controlled by the torque generated by the rider, again either at the seat or in the torso.

To straighten back out of the turn, the rider simply reverses the procedure for entering it: cause the bike to lean farther to the left; this causes it to steer farther to the left which moves the wheel contact patches farther to the left, eventually reducing the leftward lean and exiting the turn.

The reason this no-hands steering is less effective on heavy bikes, such as motorcycles, is that the rider weighs so much less than the bike that leaning the torso with respect to the bike does not cause the bike to lean far enough to generate anything but the shallowest turns. Riders may be able to keep a bike centered in a lane and negotiate shallow highway turns, but not much else.

[marty]

gyroscopic procession

as the bottom of your 'gyroscope' is fixed on the ground, all of the movement goes to the top of the tyre.

[CookMySock]

And by the way don't try this on the road at 80kph. Try an empty car park at about 30-40kph and be ready for the bike to drop quickly.uh, that is the reason why I suggested at 80k. It's fine for an experienced rider to manage that quick drop, but its dangerous and unsettling for a newb. At 80k in a straight line, the motion is docile, predictable, controllable, and non-threatening. At 30-40k its sudden, peaky, and intimidating.

Just trying to help.

DB

[CookMySock]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Y'see, earlier today, I was riding down a not-very-steep hill in top gear with both hands off the bars and on my hips, steering the bike around a corner and weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body. Obviously, I was hallucinating.:Oi: Don't confuse the newbs !! Theres no way you want them to be trying that out.

DB

[CB ARGH]

Lol... I'd love to do that!

Used to do the no handers/no brainers on the old dirt bike... Bit of fun til you hit a tree stump :p

[madandy]

Gahh! A countersteering thread!

Bring on the Luddites!

You called?

I watched some WSBK highlights the other day...I'm sure I saw a rider standing up on the pegs with both hands in the air as he rounded some bends :cool:

I also rode some particularly twisty roads (like hairpins) last weekend and while following some cars at slow speed I was most deffinately NOT countersteering.
As soon as the pace quickend though the natural instinct to turn towards embankments and steep cliffs in order to avoid them took over once more and all was right with my little world :D

[vifferman]

Gahh! A countersteering thread!

Bring on the Luddites!
Duh... you whishled, mashster?

There's no such thing as countersteering. Bikes are held upright, are steered and propelled by BlackVoodooMagic.
Proof?
There's no proof - it's outside the realms of science.

But (however!) why else do you think dogs bark at bikes when they ride past? And (to a lesser extent) bicycles. Although they're in possession of only minor voodoo to keep them upright. :yes:

[slimjim]

Lol... I'd love to do that!

Used to do the no handers/no brainers on the old dirt bike... Bit of fun til you hit a tree stump :p


Fuck Is He Really..... ONLY ELEVEN ?

[Ryan432]

Iis it a thing that you just do without realising perhaps? I honestly don't know :p

yup it happens without you realising it unless you really think about it, when you come up to a corner (lets say a left hander) you lean your body to the left, when you do this you put more weight on the left side of the bar, turning the wheel right, this tips the bike in and away you go. This is why "looking where you want to go" helps when cornering because you tend to naturally lean in the direction you look (this is unrelated to target fixation which is different). This also explains the ergonomics of a sportsbike, by leaning you forward more you have more weight on the handle bars which allows you to come in and out of corners much quicker (there are other reasons to but that would be going off topic).

in short, unless you really concentrate you dont realise you are turning the bars right.

:rockon: :Punk:

[mstriumph]

...............



............. weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body.

Obviously, I was hallucinating. s'funny - i've hallucinated like that, too .......... :blink:


must be the mushrooms :(

[nosebleed]

...a picture being worth a 1000 words and all that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk&feature=related

[quickbuck]

Countersteering is something that we teach at the Superbike school. ......
I hope this helps.
Superbike School?
NO BS Bike (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)?? Sounds like Keith Code.

Did you work for him, or borrow the idea?

Any case, yep, the only way to turn a motorcycle at "speed" is to countersteer. Around the car park it is steer in the direction you want to go, and keep your eyes up!
In fact, always keep your eyes where you want to go.
Pushbikes do countersteer to turn too... Just use less force.
(see photo (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78965&d=1196668375))

The weighty issue...
Well, for me placing all my weight on the peg (outside) allows me to shift my weight to the inside of the corner and this doesn't turn the bike.
BUT it shifts the centre of gravity of the bike, and thus you don't have to have it cranked over as far to round a corner.
This means you don't grind away pegs and other parts on older bikes....

[Taz]

Yep if your'e riding your bike and going around corners you are counter steering. No science no practise it just happens.

[Blackshear]

Yeah man, before I got my giffer, I read that in the road code book and thought, what they hell are they smoking?
Obviously, I ate my words and some. A far more efficient way to turn at speed.

And yes, the magical speed number. Thought I'd give it a go turning into a car park in the mall, good thing my front forks aren't TOO rooted to soak up the panic braking :cool:

[quickbuck]

Remember the lower the speed, the LESS physical effort is required to turn the bars. May be able to turn them further, but it doesn't take much.
This is due to the big Gyro you are trying to make change direction.
Double the speed, 4 times the force... or there abouts. I just made that up, but I'm sure it is a square relationship.

[CB ARGH]

Remember the lower the speed, the LESS physical effort is required to turn the bars. May be able to turn them further, but it doesn't take much.
This is due to the big Gyro you are trying to make change direction.
Double the speed, 4 times the force... or there abouts. I just made that up, but I'm sure it is a square relationship.

Cheers boss!

Thanks to all of the above, it really helped me understand it a lot clearer!

[Motig]

You lot and your bloody countersteering !:bash: When this subject came up eons ago I thought " Shit, I'm not doing that " Then proceeded to go out and try to do it thinking "Gee its not easy" gave up went back to riding like I normally do and "voila !!" I'd been doing the damn countersteering all along:gob:

[MDR2]

I hate science.

Might give it a go on the push bike (don't have a bike at the moment). In motocross I never did the above and got a lean into the corner... is it a thing that you just do without realising perhaps? I honestly don't know :p

Seeing as how everyone else has an opinion I feel I have to waste some space on the net :D

I asked my dad about this back when I started riding and he interrupted me while asking and said don't even try it. If you've ever ridden a push bike then your already likely to be doing it, the moment you start thinking about it and TRYING to do it you'll come to grief

So yeah, he also seems to think it's just one of those things you automatically do.


Then again, he also tells me if you don't fall off you're not going fast enough...:clap:

[CB ARGH]

"It's only close when it hits"

A comment from my father when he almost backs into my neighbour's Holden.


Ha. :eek5:

[CHOPPA]

think of it like pulling a rug from under your feet, pull it left, you fall to the right, pull it right and you fall left...

nicely put...

[CookMySock]

the moment you start thinking about it and TRYING to do it you'll come to griefThere is a problem with this however - one day if you HAVE TO SWERVE then do you bar-push or do you not bar-push? If you are going to be this rigid in your thinking, and train yourself not to bar-push, I'd say you are up shit creek in an emergency when the situation was foist upon you. :bye:

DB

[Swoop]

Some people will be along soon to confuse you and attempt to discourage you from believing in the magic of counter steering.
Burn them!

... gave up went back to riding like I normally do and "voila !!" I'd been doing the damn countersteering all along:gob:
:yes:

[MDR2]

There is a problem with this however - one day if you HAVE TO SWERVE then do you bar-push or do you not bar-push? If you are going to be this rigid in your thinking, and train yourself not to bar-push, I'd say you are up shit creek in an emergency when the situation was foist upon you. :bye:

DB

I think you've got me wrong dude, what I was trying to say is that it's something that comes naturally, if you intentionally force it to happen, your putting to much effort into it. I get what you mean of course, perhaps Im struggling to convey what I mean though. Each to their own I guess, living is learning etc :)

[FiBee]

A lot of people throw their weight around to turn the bike and in the process of doing this they end up pulling on the outside bar which is the same as pushing on the inside bar. This however doesn't have the same control as pushing on the inside bar. The process is simply to push on the inside bar and then relax.

So (on a side note)... does moving your butt over to the inside help with cornering at all? I was told to always move my butt over when cornering (high speed obviously, not to do a super-fandangly hang-off on the lil' trip to the dairy :weird:), but I notice a lot of guys don't move at all??? I notice it unsettles my bike when going through tight twisties, so am trying to remember not to move over in those situations, but knowing that all I need to do is push harder on the inside bar for higher speed corners would save a bit of energy (& seat cover wear :laugh:)

[klingon]

StClingin, as soon as you get your bike, I suggest you enrol in the BRONZ Ride Right Ride Safe course. It is held every month at the Whenuapai air base. You get to learn the theory of countersteering, see it in action, then try it out yourself in a variety of conditions.

Best of all it only costs $50 for a full day course! Worth every cent.

[quickbuck]

So (on a side note)... does moving your butt over to the inside help with cornering at all?

Yes it does.
It moves the centre of gravity of the bike, and thus the machine doesn't have to be cranked over as far in the corner to go around the same radius.

Remember when getting over from side to side, you should be on the balls of your feet, and doing it in a nice smooth action to avoid rapid unsettling of the suspension.

Hope this helps.

[Ixion]

I started riding long before countersteering was invented, and I always disconnect it on my bikes. I don't trust such new fangled notions.

I knew that it would come to no good when they started putting suspension on frames.

[CookMySock]

I think you've got me wrong dude, what I was trying to say is that it's something that comes naturally, if you intentionally force it to happen, your putting to much effort into it. I get what you mean of course, perhaps Im struggling to convey what I mean though. Each to their own I guess, living is learning etc :)I'm gettin ya now bro. :)



It moves the centre of gravity of the bike, and thus the machine doesn't have to be cranked over as far in the corner to go around the same radius.

Remember when getting over from side to side, you should be on the balls of your feet, and doing it in a nice smooth action to avoid rapid unsettling of the suspension.I don't get on my feet, or move my butt at all. The bodys' center of gravity is quite high up, and much more is to be gained by moving your head and shoulders. It's easier and more comfortable too. To move to the left I put my chin up toward my mirror and roll over sit on my left bum cheek - rinse and repeat for the right side. The more weight "out" I need, I just put my shoulders out further - so I don't slide my arse whatsoever, just roll from one bum cheek to the other.

I find it is very easy to pull on the opposite bar too. Cough, I find I am settling into this habit, and I wonder if it is a bad thing. Should I stamp this out and return to the push ?

DB

[jrandom]

I knew that it would come to no good when they started putting suspension on frames.

I watched Easy Rider last night.

I don't know why I never noticed it before, but by gawd, Fonda and Hopper were struggling with those raked-out hardtail pigs they were riding! You can see them wobbling and bouncing and weaving all over the show with decidedly unrelaxed facial expressions in every scene where they're riding toward the camera.

The discomfort, I suspect, would be pretty intense if one actually tried to ride such a machine from LA to New Orleans.

[The Stranger]

I notice it unsettles my bike when going through tight twisties, so am trying to remember not to move over in those situations

It shouldn't unsettle the bike.

My personal view. If you are unsettling the bike however, you should not try hanging off in those situations.

2 things to consider.

1) There is a lot of weight in your head and upper body. Whether or not you are moving your butt, no worries, move your head and upper torso to the inside of the corner. Head and torso has a greater benefit (to cornering) than your butt anyway. A lot of people focus too much on thier butts and loose sight of the fact that all their effort was just wasted as their upper body is counter leaning. Kiss your inside mirror.

2)If you are unsettling the bike, it likely indicates an issue with the way you are doing it. A lot of people seem to pull their weight up on the bars then shift their weight on the bike. Both will unsettle the bike. Perhaps try just standing (a little) up on the balls of your feet and countersteering the bike over beneath you and then resting down again. No need to move your weight fore/aft or sideways at all.

[The Stranger]

The more weight "out" I need, I just put my shoulders out further - so I don't slide my arse whatsoever, just roll from one bum cheek to the other.

I find it is very easy to pull on the opposite bar too. Cough, I find I am settling into this habit, and I wonder if it is a bad thing. Should I stamp this out and return to the push ?



So what do you do with your inside shoulder? foreward or backward?

Personally, I prefer push the inside bar.
2 reasons.

1) It's easier to remember in a panic situation. Want to go left - push left.

2) All steering inputs should be with the inside arm only. The outside arm should only be resting there doing no work other than perhaps controlling the throttle. Better dexterity and if you steer with both arms, one will fight the other.

[quallman1234]

I must admit, im only starting to finally use this method. Have been racing and doing all sorts of different racing by just leaning the puppie over.

Hopefully it will help me improve. Who knows? i only race tiny little bikes.

I have noticed that you turn the oppisite direction for a wee second before dipping in using this technique.
However this made me ponder with the thought wouldn't all the weight of the bike be flung from (in a right turn) the left side of the bike then quickly over to the right side (inside) hence a certain amount of unstableness?, or is the suspension these days that good it doesn't matter?
Serious question.

[jrandom]

Listen to what The Stranger says, he speaks troof.

And watch the GP riders - they don't muck around with their butts. They lead with their head and shoulders, and their butt slides off the seat after the fact where necessary.

In the really tight chicanes where they're chucking the bike on its ear, one side one second the other the next, their butt stays firmly planted but they still manage significant weight transfer with their head and torso. Sometimes they're pretty much looking past the side of their screen rather than across the top, while their arse is still more or less central.

[quallman1234]

I guess im going to have to try this out, well ill be really annoyed if it suddenly all clicks after a year of racing. oh well better late than never eh

[CookMySock]

So what do you do with your inside shoulder? foreward or backward?uh I'm NOT sure what you mean here. I guess my inside (of the corner) shoulder is more forward than the other.



Personally, I prefer push the inside bar.

1) It's easier to remember in a panic situation. Want to go left - push left.

2) All steering inputs should be with the inside arm only. The outside arm should only be resting there doing no work other than perhaps controlling the throttle. Better dexterity and if you steer with both arms, one will fight the other.agreed 100%. I don't quite know why I feel so comfortable about the opposite-bar-pull. I am still at a stage in my riding where I can think about it and choose. A few years down the track I think I might not be able to choose.

DB

[Mikkel]

Counter steering is MAGIC!
If you displease the spirits it will not work when you need it most.
There is nothing to understand, counter steering just happens - if you make sure to sacrifice a goat every now and again.

[Badjelly]

Personally, I prefer push the inside bar. 2 reasons.

1) It's easier to remember in a panic situation. Want to go left - push left.

2) All steering inputs should be with the inside arm only. The outside arm should only be resting there doing no work other than perhaps controlling the throttle. Better dexterity and if you steer with both arms, one will fight the other.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, as such, because I've never thought about the inside arm/outside arm issue. But your reasons sound pretty weak. One arm fighting the other? :girlfight: I don't believe it.

[Badjelly]

I don't quite know why I feel so comfortable about the opposite-bar-pull. I am still at a stage in my riding where I can think about it and choose. A few years down the track I think I might not be able to choose.

Mate, I'm a long way down the track! But even an old fart like me can think about his riding and try to improve it. I've been working on moving my upper body into the bends more recently, as I found I was tending to lean outwards. And I'm sure I could work on inside arm push vs outside arm pull (have I got that right?) if I could see any reason to.

[The Stranger]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, as such, because I've never thought about the inside arm/outside arm issue. But your reasons sound pretty weak. One arm fighting the other? :girlfight: I don't believe it.

Do you always offer opinions on things you have never experienced?
How is this at all helpful to anyone?
Why not approach things with an open mind, maybe you could learn something?

It should be noted that in many of these things there are no absolutes - it's what works for you that matters.
Hence, I prefixed my reply with the word "personally" as in it is my opinion and works for me.

However, as a principal, I would strongly recommend you keep an open mind and try a thing before offering a contrary opinion.


Had a guy at RRRS on Sunday. He was making a bit of a ham of a given exercise.
I had a word with him and asked him to drum on both levers with his fingers during the exercise, he was reluctant, but in the end did.
He repeated the exercise significantly better thereafter.
He asked me what the hell just happened?
I suspected his arms were tense, drumming his fingers forced them to relax and he was able to complete the exercise well.

Keep an open mind and you never know what you may learn.

[The Stranger]

uh I'm sure what you mean here. I guess my inside (of the corner) shoulder is more forward than the other.



That answers the question just fine.
So how about next time you are out, think about this.
Try a series of corners with your shoulder dropped forward, then try them again with it dropped back then come back and let us know if you notice any difference.

I know which I prefer, however, we are all individuals and what suits me on my bike/s may not suit you on yours.

But I will be surprised if you don't notice a difference.

[Badjelly]

Do you always offer opinions on things you have never experienced? How is this at all helpful to anyone? Why not approach things with an open mind, maybe you could learn something?

Er, learning something is exactly the point of my questioning you. Read what I said again if you want. I'm not dismissing the idea that steering with the inside arm only is a good thing, but the reasons you gave sounded pretty weak to me. So I said so. It causes your arms to fight? Well, that might be true for someone who hasn't mastered eating with a knife and fork, or steering a car with both hands on the wheel (quite a few people, apparently), or coordinating left hand and left foot to change gear.

So your reason is, "It just seems to work better that way". OK, I'll run with that and give it a go myself. I'll try to be open-minded but not so much my brains fall out.

[The Stranger]

Er, learning something is exactly the point of my questioning you. Read what I said again if you want. I'm not dismissing the idea that steering with the inside arm only is a good thing, but the reasons you gave sounded pretty weak to me. So I said so. It causes your arms to fight? Well, that might be true for someone who hasn't mastered eating with a knife and fork, or steering a car with both hands on the wheel (quite a few people, apparently), or coordinating left hand and left foot to change gear.


Hmm, really looks like you have an open mind there.
I look forward to your post after you have tried it.
I have no doubt the outcome will match your preconception. Too bad, you may have learnt something.



So your reason is, "It just seems to work better that way". OK, I'll run with that and give it a go myself. I'll try to be open-minded but not so much my brains fall out.

You seem to be having trouble with reading and comprehension as well.
I set out my reasons.
Remember - one hand fighting the other and dexterity.

[Badjelly]

Remember - one hand fighting the other and dexterity.

Right oh.

*** The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. ***

[avgas]

countersteering is when you meant to go around the corner but you looked the wrong way and fell off.
Your steer the wrong way and fall off the road. Counter to what you wish to achieve in a corner.
That is why you push the left bar to go left(hand side) or right to go right(hand side). Of course counter-steering is replaced by the ball-basher if you get enough angle into the steering to lift the back of the bike up.
The ultimate is the bar-leap, where you have enough speed to lift the back of the bike and then you pass the bike mid-corner (usually above the bars) and slide down the bank next to the corner with the bike in hot pursuit.
Now ask something else ridiculous like "What is GOD?"

[Mikkel]

"What is GOD?"

"Why is GOD?" is a better question IMHO. ;)

[avgas]

Cheers boss!

Thanks to all of the above, it really helped me understand it a lot clearer!
Ok im only going to say this once.
Put both of your arms out infront of you,
If you tilt you head to the left (not TURN, TILT!) this is you leaning closer to the road in a corner.......now look at your hands - voila your left hand is pushed out further than the right.........now do the same TILTING your head to the right.
MAGIC!!!!

[DEATH_INC.]

2) All steering inputs should be with the inside arm only. The outside arm should only be resting there doing no work other than perhaps controlling the throttle. Better dexterity and if you steer with both arms, one will fight the other.
Hmmmm I use both arms, when ya gotta change direction quick you can't beat it.
Here's the correct body positioning....

[CookMySock]

Here's the correct body positioning....gawd, hez had his arms lengthened.. no fair !! :mad:

DB

[Mikkel]

Here's the correct body positioning....

Need to get myself a set of elbow sliders it seems! :niceone:

[Badjelly]

Hmm, really looks like you have an open mind there. I look forward to your post after you have tried it.

OK, so on the ride to work this morning I tried to analyse whether I was initiating turns by pushing with my inside arm or pulling with my outside arm, and also tried to vary my style and see what difference it made. (My morning ride is quite varied, though it involves no speed limits above 50 km/h. And what a lovely day it is in south Wellington!) My conclusion is that it depends on how much weight I'm putting on the bars. Downhill there's a fair bit of weight on the bars, so pushing with the inside arm is natural. On the flat, even at 50 km/h, or a little more, the wind drag pulls me back and it's natural to also pull back a bit on the outside bar. And under acceleration the awesome power of the mighty Scorpio means that the front wheel is off the ground so it's moot.

I honestly can't see that sharing the work between the inside and outside arms leads to any problems. I would say that concentrating on pushing with the inside arm encourages you to lean forward to put more weight on the bars, which is generally a good thing.


I have no doubt the outcome will match your preconception.

Yeah, whatever.

[Ixion]

Ok im only going to say this once.
Put both of your arms out infront of you,
If you tilt you head to the left (not TURN, TILT!) this is you leaning closer to the road in a corner.......now look at your hands - voila your left hand is pushed out further than the right.........now do the same TILTING your head to the right.
MAGIC!!!!

No it doesn't. I just tried it. Tilting the head doesn't move my hands at all. To do that I have to twist my shoulder.

[Ixion]

Er, learning something is exactly the point of my questioning you. Read what I said again if you want. I'm not dismissing the idea that steering with the inside arm only is a good thing, but the reasons you gave sounded pretty weak to me. So I said so. It causes your arms to fight? Well, that might be true for someone who hasn't mastered eating with a knife and fork, or steering a car with both hands on the wheel (quite a few people, apparently), or coordinating left hand and left foot to change gear.

So your reason is, "It just seems to work better that way". OK, I'll run with that and give it a go myself. I'll try to be open-minded but not so much my brains fall out.

I push or pull, depending on.

I imagine most older riders do. Those who were riding before indicators. Try pushing on the inside bar, when your hand isn't on the bar cos it's signalling the turn. Don't work.

You had to turn by pushing or pulling on the bar that you were holding (the one with the arm that wasn't signalling). Right hand turn , pull left hand bar. Left hand turn pull right hand bar. Stopping, depends on whether you only used the right hand for the stop signal. Technically a left hand stop signal was not legal.

Not signalling, push appropriate bar.

I still pull or push depending on what's most convenient. Or even pull AND push in emergencies. I don't think it causes any problems.

In reality , you are normally not actually pushing , or pulling. You are twisting your shoulder/upper body slightly. So I very much doubt that would be any "left ahnd fighting right hand" issues.

[Badjelly]

No it doesn't. I just tried it. Tilting the head doesn't move my hands at all. To do that I have to twist my shoulder.

Yeah, same here, but I didn't want to say so, otherwise I'd be accused of being close-minded :(

[Badjelly]

I imagine most older riders do. Those who were riding before indicators. Try pushing on the inside bar, when your hand isn't on the bar cos it's signalling the turn. Don't work.

And then there were the times when you were signalling a left turn with your left arm and holding a cell phone to your ear with the right arm :shit:

[Mikkel]

No it doesn't. I just tried it. Tilting the head doesn't move my hands at all. To do that I have to twist my shoulder.

Disbeliver? BURN THE HERETIC!!! The ancestral spirits of counter-steering will feast upon your soul!

[wharfy]

Ok im only going to say this once.
Put both of your arms out infront of you,
If you tilt you head to the left (not TURN, TILT!) this is you leaning closer to the road in a corner.......now look at your hands - voila your left hand is pushed out further than the right.........now do the same TILTING your head to the right.
MAGIC!!!!

All that happens is I hear a clicking sound in my neck, my hands don't move at all ?

[CookMySock]

Try a series of corners with your shoulder dropped forward, then try them again with it dropped back then come back and let us know if you notice any difference.ALRIGHTEEE THEN!!! I went for a quick hoon to town and back and tried it.

Uh, then I forgot what I was supposed to be trying and just had a quick hoon! :spanking: Sorry!

BUT, I discovered something ELSE!! Insane ay, hehe.

If I sit too far forward on the seat my shoulders are ABOVE the bars, and I have little or no leverage on them, leading to "oh shit" moments.

If I sit further back I can actually PUSH on the bars rather than just "wish" them to move. The thrills never end!! :blink:

NOW I have one shoulder further forwardish than the other - the side I am pushing on is further forward.

I think.

DB

[terbang]

It does indeed turn the wheel to the right and causes the bike to roll around the curve of the tyre profile - to the left. This makes the bike lean to the left and makes the bike attempt to travel in a circle whose circumference depends on the angle of lean and the velocity at which you are traveling.

Some people will be along soon to confuse you and attempt to discourage you from believing in the magic of counter steering.

Bingo.......