04 road toll

[marty]

good to see it's still coming down, contrary to the efforts and support of a few.....

"At 3pm today the road toll for 2004 was 435, compared with a total 461 for 2003"


http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/waikatotimes/0,2106,3144579a6412,00.html

[Lou Girardin]

good to see it's still coming down, contrary to the efforts and support of a few.....

"At 3pm today the road toll for 2004 was 435, compared with a total 461 for 2003"


http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/waikatotimes/0,2106,3144579a6412,00.html

That's not a very good comparison. 2003's toll was the highest for several years. In '99 they said all this persecution of drivers would result in a toll under 300. What happened?
Is it time for Plan B?
Do they have a Plan B?
Stalker radars in taxis?

[6Chris6]

Do they have a Plan B?
Stalker radars in taxis?

Being able to drive before getting a Taxi licence would be a nice start :mad:

[magnum]

and read a map,and speak english :mad:

[NC]

Man I hate taxi drivers :angry2:

[jimbo600]

I'm not so sure that the LTSA stats prove anything. The Fatal road crashes in New Zealand 1997 - 2003 chart fluctuates too much to discern any real trend. What is obvious is that 2003 was a particularly bad year for road deaths despite the speed, seatbelts etc campaign. However I am vexed as to why people still drive around without wearing a seatbelt. I would really like to see more efforts put into driver training and better policing of foreign license holders. God known how many times I have seen car drivers on my side of the road when they cut corners. The biggest problem on the roads is folk going 80 in a 100 and not letting people get by. The result is a convoy of impatient angry cage drivers who then take crazy risks trying to pass.

[Blakamin]

The biggest problem on the roads is folk going 80 in a 100 and not letting people get by. The result is a convoy of impatient angry cage drivers who then take crazy risks trying to pass.
grrr.... or 60 from pukerua to waikanae... cept in the passing lane at raumati straight where they do 120..... BASTARDS!!!!

[Ghost Lemur]

I'm not so sure that the LTSA stats prove anything. The Fatal road crashes in New Zealand 1997 - 2003 chart fluctuates too much to discern any real trend. What is obvious is that 2003 was a particularly bad year for road deaths despite the speed, seatbelts etc campaign. However I am vexed as to why people still drive around without wearing a seatbelt. I would really like to see more efforts put into driver training and better policing of foreign license holders. God known how many times I have seen car drivers on my side of the road when they cut corners. The biggest problem on the roads is folk going 80 in a 100 and not letting people get by. The result is a convoy of impatient angry cage drivers who then take crazy risks trying to pass.

Couldn't agree more Jimbo.

The sooner Kiwi's and foriegners alike realise that driving is a privilege and not a right, the sooner they may start taking adaquate precautions (use common sense).

[What?]

Couldn't agree more Jimbo.

The sooner Kiwi's and foriegners alike realise that driving is a privilege and not a right, the sooner they may start taking adaquate precautions (use common sense).
Don't hold your breath - I expect the world will run out of oil first.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

good to see it's still coming down, contrary to the efforts and support of a few.....

"At 3pm today the road toll for 2004 was 435, compared with a total 461 for 2003"


http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/waikatotimes/0,2106,3144579a6412,00.html
I am going to stick my neck out here and I have taken the pain killers to stop the pain when you all chop my head off, but what would the toll be without the enforcement we have and the education programs in place? We all bag other drivers but we all make mistakes. I have driven my cage in traffic in the last few days and it is so frustrating. I will only ride the bike by choice. Lets be a bit more patient out there.

[Jackrat]

I am going to stick my neck out here and I have taken the pain killers to stop the pain when you all chop my head off, but what would the toll be without the enforcement we have and the education programs in place? We all bag other drivers but we all make mistakes. I have driven my cage in traffic in the last few days and it is so frustrating. I will only ride the bike by choice. Lets be a bit more patient out there.

Totaly agree so put the pain killers away.
The other thing is that less people are dead during a certain time frame,so who cares why,how or anything else.
I don't think it's anything to be trying to score points over,it's just a bloody good thing to be alive.

[spudchucka]

That's not a very good comparison. 2003's toll was the highest for several years. In '99 they said all this persecution of drivers would result in a toll under 300. What happened?
They forgot that they can't legislate against stupidity.

Happy 2005 Lou.

By the way in 2003 the toll was 461. This was up from the low of 404 in 2002. The previous years were as follows:

2001 - 453
2000 - 462
1999 - 508
1998 - 501
1997 - 539

2003 had the highest road toll in three years, still a huge improvement from 1997, or for that matter the 1980's when we were killing around 700 every year.

Who was policing the roads in the 80's? Oh, thats right it was the Ministry of Transport. The organisation who, according to some were soooo much better at road policing than todays police but under whose management the road toll was 200 - 300 more anually than it is now.

[scumdog]

I am going to stick my neck out here and I have taken the pain killers to stop the pain when you all chop my head off, but what would the toll be without the enforcement we have and the education programs in place? We all bag other drivers but we all make mistakes. I have driven my cage in traffic in the last few days and it is so frustrating. I will only ride the bike by choice. Lets be a bit more patient out there.

Damn right! It's a point often missed by the nay-sayers.

However stupidity is so hard to detect BEFORE it happens but I'm sure the 'stupidometer' is not far away!

BTW Workmate had to take evasive action when he was almost cleaned up in a work car by a driver who crossed to his side of the road 'cos he was focussed on the ice-cream he was eating! Needless to say the day went downhill for him from then on, the melting ice-cream was the least of his problems!

[loosebruce]

However stupidity is so hard to detect BEFORE it happens but I'm sure the 'stupidometer' is not far away!


Maybe whoever is designing this stupidometer would like some guenia (sp) pigs for testing, maybe we could loan a couple from this site, one that pops to mind - our wee buddy mikey :whistle:

[What?]

They forgot that they can't legislate against stupidity....

...Who was policing the roads in the 80's? Oh, thats right it was the Ministry of Transport. The organisation who, according to some were soooo much better at road policing than todays police but under whose management the road toll was 200 - 300 more anually than it is now.
But it's not that simple, is it? 20 years ago there were no air bags, no ABS systems, tyres and suspension weren't as good etc etc blah blah blah. Not to mention attitudes to drink driving, seatblets (esp. rear seats) being quite a bit different to today's.
The only constant over the years is stupidity.

[Hitcher]

Interesting to note that there were four more pedestrian deaths than motorcyclists in 2004 (37 c.f. 33). Still 37 too many (although some of those trolls from Christchurch appear intent on self-destruction...).

[spudchucka]

But it's not that simple, is it? 20 years ago there were no air bags, no ABS systems, tyres and suspension weren't as good etc etc blah blah blah. Not to mention attitudes to drink driving, seatblets (esp. rear seats) being quite a bit different to today's.
The only constant over the years is stupidity.
I totally agree with you. As soon as we can deport the % of population with defective common sense genes we'll be heading in the right direction.

It would make for a pretty quiet place though!

[What?]

But those of us left all have good taste in Scotch!!!

[crazylittleshit]

Man I hate taxi drivers :angry2:

THIS IS A UNIVERSAL FACT HAS ANYONE NOT NEARLY BEEN KILLED BY ONE OF THESE MORONES. :Police:

[Hitcher]

THIS IS A UNIVERSAL FACT HAS ANYONE NOT NEARLY BEEN KILLED BY ONE OF THESE MORONES.
Hey, go easy on the generalisations, spelling (that's "moron"), and particularly the caps lock...

Thank you.

[Lou Girardin]

They forgot that they can't legislate against stupidity.

Happy 2005 Lou.

By the way in 2003 the toll was 461. This was up from the low of 404 in 2002. The previous years were as follows:

2001 - 453
2000 - 462
1999 - 508
1998 - 501
1997 - 539

2003 had the highest road toll in three years, still a huge improvement from 1997, or for that matter the 1980's when we were killing around 700 every year.

Who was policing the roads in the 80's? Oh, thats right it was the Ministry of Transport. The organisation who, according to some were soooo much better at road policing than todays police but under whose management the road toll was 200 - 300 more anually than it is now.

I was just getting around to posting the figures since 2000, thanks Spud.
It's obvious that since the Police turned feral in 2000, the road toll has not changed significantly.
The most dramatic fall was in the '90's when the Police were doing real Police work. Then the LTSA got into them about the low Police presence on the roads. The LTSA convinced the Government to push the Police into giving traffic enforcement priority by accentuating the expected revenue streams.
It's clear that the fall in the road toll over the past 15 years has been for reasons other than the current enforcement policies.
Just as an aside, a recently released report by Queensland Transport identified speeding as a contributory factor in only 5% of all crashes. These figures are very close to the UK's TRRL report.
So, unless Q'landers are a different breed to Victorians and Kiwi's, it seems that we are still being lied to. Surprise, surprise!
It really hasn't been worth the loss of public esteem, has it?

[Blakamin]

So, unless Q'landers are a different breed to Victorians and Kiwi's,
Trust me, they are!!!! <_<

[James Deuce]

But it's not that simple, is it? 20 years ago there were no air bags, no ABS systems, tyres and suspension weren't as good etc etc blah blah blah. Not to mention attitudes to drink driving, seatblets (esp. rear seats) being quite a bit different to today's.
The only constant over the years is stupidity.

Not only is it not that simple the variation over the last 5 years is statistically insignificant. I really think we've plateaued and the only way it will reduce further is if we ban personal transport. Then it will go up because you'll kill hundreds in one light rail accident/mulitple bus pile up.

[bear]

On one radio report recently they said that the road toll was attributed 33% to speed, 33% to alcohol and 33% not wearing seatbelts. Not sure what station and the source, but straight away thought to myself what a load of crap!

[James Deuce]

Interesting to note that there were four more pedestrian deaths than motorcyclists in 2004 (37 c.f. 33). Still 37 too many (although some of those trolls from Christchurch appear intent on self-destruction...).

That's an amazingly low toll in both categories. Still the death's don't have the economic impact of the near deaths. I know; that's a bit cynical.

That is a useful statistic to quote to the people that tell you that you're a temporary Kiwi if you ride a bike. I'd tell them to stop exercising. It's 1.12 times more dangerous to go for a jog than to ride a bike. Only taking into account road deaths too, not other factors like cardiac health, and stray crossbow bolts.

[Hitcher]

...stray crossbow bolts.
...and food poisoning. Kills more New Zealanders each year than drown. Good old E coli and salmonella.

[jrandom]

Kills more New Zealanders each year than drown.

Yup, gotta watch out for that drown.

[SPman]

I am going to stick my neck out here and I have taken the pain killers to stop the pain when you all chop my head off, but what would the toll be without the enforcement we have and the education programs in place? We all bag other drivers but we all make mistakes. I have driven my cage in traffic in the last few days and it is so frustrating. I will only ride the bike by choice. Lets be a bit more patient out there. What education programs - defensive driving courses - hah! There is no real, effective, proper driver education in this country! The only course they can think of is to hammer drivers into submission - coz its cheap, relies on numbers on a dial and doesnt need any thought put into it! The latest safety initiatives from Europe dont get a look in here - we slavishly follow Vic roads, who are trying to reinvent the wheel, seem to ignore most of the effective overseas safety data - hell, Mecedes benz has more road safety data than Australia and NZ put together ! The latest passive systems - ABS and vehicle stability systems have the potential for reducing accidents by 35-37%! Total! A hell of a big reduction.And will become mandatory overseas before much longer - ABS is already mandatory in Europe. Our guys are still at the - "if you make cars better and train drivers, they'll get too confident and have more accidents " stage.
Tossers
Anyway - whats wrong with a bit of passive eugenics - too many cars out there anyway! Too many people......oh well, school will be back soon, so can go back to favourite pastime of watching as...foreign drivers crash outside AUT!

[jrandom]

four more pedestrian deaths than motorcyclists in 2004...It's 1.12 times more dangerous to go for a jog than to ride a bike.

Jim! I'm ashamed of you. Those figures aren't normalised for frequency. Many, many more people go for walks each day than ride motorcycles.

Or were you intentionally turning the fallacious statistical weapons of the unwashed masses against their usual wielders? You sly dog...

[bluninja]

Jim! I'm ashamed of you. Those figures aren't normalised for frequency. Many, many more people go for walks each day than ride motorcycles.

Or were you intentionally turning the fallacious statistical weapons of the unwashed masses against their usual wielders? You sly dog...

Yeah...what he said! I've never seen anyone joggin along the North Western Motorway. Would have thought it was much than 1.12 times the risk of dying ny joggin than riding a motorcycle :stupid:

[What?]

On one radio report recently they said that the road toll was attributed 33% to speed, 33% to alcohol and 33% not wearing seatbelts. Not sure what station and the source, but straight away thought to myself what a load of crap!
I would think it very close to 100% due to inappropriate use of a motor vehicle - end of story.

China's road toll is interesting - 600 per day. Considering the relative motor vehicles per capita, their toll is WAY, WAY worse than ours, despite hugely draconian law enforcement and (someone correct me if I am wrong) a 70Km/h highway speed limit.

[James Deuce]

Jim! I'm ashamed of you. Those figures aren't normalised for frequency. Many, many more people go for walks each day than ride motorcycles.

Or were you intentionally turning the fallacious statistical weapons of the unwashed masses against their usual wielders? You sly dog...


Took you long enough! Believe the way I see some stats published I wonder if the person providing the analytical backdrop has ever studied applied mathematics in any shape or form.

[James Deuce]

Yeah...what he said! I've never seen anyone joggin along the North Western Motorway. Would have thought it was much than 1.12 times the risk of dying ny joggin than riding a motorcycle :stupid:

I would have thought living in Pomgolia would have allowed to appreciate a heavily sarcastic dig at how road accident stats are presented. Has Blair hanging around with Bush started to removed the British appreciation of Irony and Sarcasm without smilies?

[Clockwork]

Does anyone know what criteria are used when collecting traffic accident statistics? For instance, does "speed" mean the vehicle that caused the accident was definitely exceeding the speed limit or does it mean that at least one of the vehicles involved in the accident was going faster than the investigator considers appropriate for the conditions.

[jrandom]

Took you long enough!

Only just got around to reading the thread this morning.


Believe the way I see some stats published I wonder if the person providing the analytical backdrop has ever studied applied mathematics in any shape or form.

True dat. And very sad.

[James Deuce]

Does anyone know what criteria are used when collecting traffic accident statistics? For instance, does "speed" mean the vehicle that caused the accident was definitely exceeding the speed limit or does it mean that at least one of the vehicles involved in the accident was going faster than the investigator considers appropriate for the conditions.

It's interesting that one. In my recent accident I committed the heinous offence of both excessive speed for the conditions (standing still is too fast for a diesel affected surface) and a solo vehicle accident. Bad for both sets of stats. But almost unavoidable in the circumstances.

[MacD]

Does anyone know what criteria are used when collecting traffic accident statistics? For instance, does "speed" mean the vehicle that caused the accident was definitely exceeding the speed limit or does it mean that at least one of the vehicles involved in the accident was going faster than the investigator considers appropriate for the conditions.

The LTSA defines speeding as "travelling too fast for the conditions".

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/research/speed.html

This is probably an appropriate definition as it could be considered a measure of inappropriate driver behaviour resulting in an accident, but is too often confused with exceeding the speed limit in advertising campaigns etc.

[Blakamin]

It's interesting that one. In my recent accident I committed the heinous offence of both excessive speed for the conditions (standing still is too fast for a diesel affected surface) and a solo vehicle accident. Bad for both sets of stats. But almost unavoidable in the circumstances.
Frosty did the same thing... but his will not be an official stat... is yours?

[James Deuce]

Frosty did the same thing... but his will not be an official stat... is yours?
Yes. I claimed insurance.

[riffer]

Frosty did the same thing... but his will not be an official stat... is yours?


Not strictly true ... it will be recorded by ACC.

[Blakamin]

Not strictly true ... it will be recorded by ACC.
hmmm... depends what he told them.... <_<

[riffer]

hmmm... depends what he told them.... <_<


Or, if he even bothered to go get his shoulder check out...

Frosty - you there?

[jeremysprite]

anyone been to www.nationstates.net? you make your own country, and play the government, changing laws and legislation etc. It's awesome, just today abolished the speed limit. Wish I controlled New Zealand....

[Yokai]

anyone been to www.nationstates.net? you make your own country, and play the government, changing laws and legislation etc. It's awesome, just today abolished the speed limit. Wish I controlled New Zealand....

MAN - that's cool - I'm gonna be doing that rather than working from now on!!! I loved that book too... Hummm - time to create the nation of something or other.

[Biff]

Who was policing the roads in the 80's? Oh, thats right it was the Ministry of Transport. The organisation who, according to some were soooo much better at road policing than todays police but under whose management the road toll was 200 - 300 more anually than it is now.


Hang on a second - have I missed something here? Being as I've only been in NZ for a few months, are you trying to tell me that the Ministry of Transport were responsible for catching speeding, drunk motorists etc? Did they chase down drivers like the HP today i.e. lights sirens & strange moustaches ?

[James Deuce]

Hang on a second - have I missed something here? Being as I've only been in NZ for a few months, are you trying to tell me that the Ministry of Transport were responsible for catching speeding, drunk motorists etc? Did they chase down drivers like the HP today i.e. lights sirens & strange moustaches ?
Yes, but they had much better 70s Disco style moustaches.

[Hitcher]

Yes, but they had much better 70s Disco style moustaches.
And decidely more monochromatic.

[spudchucka]

Hang on a second - have I missed something here? Being as I've only been in NZ for a few months, are you trying to tell me that the Ministry of Transport were responsible for catching speeding, drunk motorists etc? Did they chase down drivers like the HP today i.e. lights sirens & strange moustaches ?
Up until 1991 or 1992, (can't remember which) the Ministry of Transport employed traffic officers, whose responsibility it was to police traffic. They did have lights & sirens on pretty black & white cars, some of them did have funny moustaches too. Up until the merger the NZ plolice did not police traffic matters, if they found a drunk driver etc they would call a TO, or sometimes just drive the drunk home and take his keys off him / her.

John Banks promised NZ 1500 new police officers in his election campaign and once elected he simply took the traffic officers and told them they were now going to be police officers. What we got was a bunch of cops that didn't want to be traffic officers and a bunch of TO's that didn't want to be cops.

In a nut shell....... obviously it is a great deal more complicated than I have portrayed here.

[Biff]

Up until 1991 or 1992, (can't remember which) the Ministry of Transport employed traffic officers, whose responsibility it was to police traffic. They did have lights & sirens on pretty black & white cars, some of them did have funny moustaches too. Up until the merger the NZ plolice did not police traffic matters, if they found a drunk driver etc they would call a TO, or sometimes just drive the drunk home and take his keys off him / her.

John Banks promised NZ 1500 new police officers in his election campaign and once elected he simply took the traffic officers and told them they were now going to be police officers. What we got was a bunch of cops that didn't want to be traffic officers and a bunch of TO's that didn't want to be cops.

In a nut shell....... obviously it is a great deal more complicated than I have portrayed here.

Thanks for the history lesson - shit, that sounds like it was a load of bureaucratic bollox back then. A politican that lied in order to get into office - surely not.

So what's the verdict from a police officers point of view, was it a good or bad move?

[MSTRS]

Up until 1991 or 1992, (can't remember which) the Ministry of Transport employed traffic officers, whose responsibility it was to police traffic. They did have lights & sirens on pretty black & white cars, some of them did have funny moustaches too. Up until the merger the NZ plolice did not police traffic matters, if they found a drunk driver etc they would call a TO, or sometimes just drive the drunk home and take his keys off him / her.

John Banks promised NZ 1500 new police officers in his election campaign and once elected he simply took the traffic officers and told them they were now going to be police officers. What we got was a bunch of cops that didn't want to be traffic officers and a bunch of TO's that didn't want to be cops.

In a nut shell....... obviously it is a great deal more complicated than I have portrayed here.
And the rest as they say is history :puke:

[spudchucka]

Thanks for the history lesson - shit, that sounds like it was a load of bureaucratic bollox back then. A politican that lied in order to get into office - surely not.

So what's the verdict from a police officers point of view, was it a good or bad move?
As I recall it was a re-election promise, Banks was the serving police minister at the time.

Its difficult to summerise an opinion on an internet forum in few enough words that people will actually bother reading.

New Zealand was pretty much the only country in the world where the nations police did not police the roads. It makes sense that the police should police the roads as well as criminal matters and in fact the traffic powers are a very strong tool to use against the criminal fraternity. However the traffic side of police work is the the most unpopular with the general public and it would be nice to be able to shake that stigma off.

The debate seems a little pointless as I simply don't see it ever changing back to how it was. We do have some separation now with highway patrol, strategic traffic units, tactical alcohol groups, CVIU, etc etc. But the public just sees the blue uniform and doesn't differentiate between the cop that gave them a ticket for not stopping at a stop sign and the cop who might be asking for their assistance.

Overall I would say it was the right move, (but not necessarily a good move) to merge the two groups.

[MSTRS]

and it would be nice to be able to shake that stigma off.


Will never happen Spud :blink:

[MSTRS]

I'm sure it's been said before but as long as the HP is all over like a rash but a burglary victim can't get a housecall from the ThinBlueLine then being more popular........well ask yourself

[spudchucka]

I'm sure it's been said before but as long as the HP is all over like a rash but a burglary victim can't get a housecall from the ThinBlueLine then being more popular........well ask yourself
I'm not disputing with any of that. The current level of road policing does seem to be working, (overall) which should be an indication to the pollies and police admin that more resources poured into general policing would be beneficial. For some reason they don't see it that way??

Edit: Policing isn't about trying to be popular, many of the things they have to do are inherently unpopular. What the organisation should aim to achieve is the majority of NZ's approving of their actions.

[merv]

I liked it after the merger, we could ride our bikes a little bit quick, but safely and nobody bothered us. The general police had far more of my respect than the MOT ever did as they were a bunch of little Hitlers. Then the HP got formed and we have the little Hitlers back. That's how it seems to me.

Mind you my last two chats with HP have resulted in a reasonable outcome so perhaps I shouldn't complain.

[spudchucka]

Trust me, they are!!!! <_<
I lived there for 6 years and agree 100%.