The Power Crisis

[Steam]

Eh? Who is to blame?
Power companies?
Planning regulations?
The Guvvmint?
A simple lack of rain?
All of the above?
Jantar probably knows all the answers.

I'm not really concerned, it's not going to bother me much.

Anyway, this is the way I see it;
There's inadequate infrastructure in this country, not enough generation. We need more of something or other, hell, I dunno what. Nobody seems to be doing anything about it.
So I reckon we have to waste as much power as we can afford, to make such a terrible situation of rolling blackouts that someone is forced to do something soon, build more generation for the coming years.

Yeah! That'll solve it!:third:

[BiK3RChiK]

Go Nuclear?:jerry::jerry:

[oldrider]

There is enough generation capacity but there is not enough fuel of the acceptable variety for the Greens and the global warming (Kyoto) brigade! :doh: John.

[Ixion]

When I was a boy I (and my parents) lived in a house with no electricity, no running water, no sewerage connection. We survived well enough. I magine that I still can if needs be. It will all be a storm in a teacup.

[rainman]

When I was a boy I (and my parents) lived in a house with no electricity, no running water, no sewerage connection. We survived well enough. I magine that I still can if needs be. It will all be a storm in a teacup.

Bet you didn't have KB then.... Just think of the withdrawal symptoms ;)

[CookMySock]

if they want us to try to cut back slightly on peak times, how is this related to lake levels ? The answer is, it aint.

The problem they have, is the grid can't supply these large peaks. Nothin to do with fucken lake levels. You're being social-engineered.

DB

[geoffm]

There hasn't been any major generating capacity added in NZ since the Clyde Dam. The population has increased 50% since then, plus more electrical demand.
Is it any real surprise?
G

[Ixion]

Bet you didn't have KB then.... Just think of the withdrawal symptoms ;)

Didn't have solar cells either.

[Big Dan]

save power = turn Kb server off for 15% of the day

[Dave-]

is this the thing where facing power outages in winter (aka no heat) the south island will reduce its power consumption by 80% while the north island will reduce its power consumption by 5%?

[davereid]

POWER STATIONS DECOMISSIONED 1990-2008:
New Plymouth, 2007 (580 MW)
Stratford, 1999 (200 MW)
Marsden A, 1992 (114 MW)
Otahuhu A, 2002 (90 MW)
Whirinaki ‘a’, 2002 (216 MW)
Meremere, 1990 (133)

TOTAL DECOMISSIONED 1990-2008: (1333 MW)

Projects Abandoned/Delayed/Restricted due to Resource Management Act :

· Project Aqua, hydro (520 MW) - abandoned 2000-2004
· Marsden B, coal (320 MW) - abandoned 2007
· Wairau Valley, Marlborough, hydro (75 MW) - abandoned 2007
· Whanganui/Tongariro, hydro – Environment Court effectively reduced the Tongariro capacity by one-third due to the “mauri” of the Whanganui river …
· North Bank Tunnel, hydro (260MW) - delayed until at least 2016
· Makara, wind - reduced from 210 to 140MW in 2007
· Project Hayes, wind (150MW) - still in delay
· Te Uku Wind (72MW) - awaiting consents
· Te Waka Wind (111MW) - consent overturned by Environment Court in April, 2007

[rainman]

Didn't have solar cells either.

You must be a really old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fritts) bugger then. :)

(/pedantic mode=off)

[RantyDave]

TOTAL DECOMISSIONED 1990-2008: (1333 MW)
ONE POINT TWENTY ONE GIGAWATTS!

ONE POINT TWENTY ONE GIGAWATTS!

I'll get me coat.

Dave

[klingon]

I have a gas stove (and a BBQ if needed) and lotsa candles. The biggest problem would be my tropical fish tank. Poor little fishies don't like the cold! :cold:

[BadCompany]

Shoot the greenies and bring on nuclear power. Its not the most future proof idea, but I hate tree huggers.

[Whynot]

ONE POINT TWENTY ONE GIGAWATTS!

ONE POINT TWENTY ONE GIGAWATTS!

I'll get me coat.

Dave

Thats it !!!
we need lightning, a flux capacitor and a delorean ..... that will fix all of our power problems :niceone:

[firefighter]

funny how they wait until they think there's a possibility of a crisis before they say anything...............or try to do something about it, hell there's been the whole summer, and hell i'll point fingers at the gummint, over-all we expect them to ensure the wellbeing of us all and the supply of power and water etc?(pretty much a necessity i'd say these days!)

[Swampdonkey]

Dear leader should of had new generation plants on the go ,9 years to do fuck all.......

[Nagash]

For people saying go nuclear, NZ couldn't actually go nuclear if they wanted to.. it's been widely reported that even the smallest nuclear power station would produce epic amounts more power then NZ would even know what to do with. Therefore, do as Steam suggested and turn on more shite and we may actually be able to go nuclear!

This constant struggle with the power demands has been going on for a couple of decades now.. nothing new. Auckland will do a whole load of bugger all (bless us) and they'll bitch the most. The Southerner's will go weeks without power and not make a single noise. Then it'll all just be forgotten about and eveything will go back to how it was.

Always has, always will..

[Dave Lobster]

For people saying go nuclear, NZ couldn't actually go nuclear if they wanted to.. it's been widely reported that even the smallest nuclear power station would produce epic amounts more power then NZ would even know what to do with.

So... what does a nuclear submarine do with all its excess power?

[jrandom]

Power cuts are fun.

The last time I was affected by one was during the Great Corroded Shackle Debacle of 2006. I got the day off work.

I don't recall being affected by one between then and the time I was taking a leak in the bathroom on the 15th floor of the Auckland Club Tower in February 1998 and all the lights went out.

:doh:

I got most of the month off work, that time.

If Joe Average Small Customer could tie utility companies down to service-level contracts with strict financial penalties surrounding breaches (I suspect that the large single industrial customers already do, but that doesn't help anybody else; in fact, it probably fucks things up when they get priority) we'd have a bulletproof electricity grid infrastructure in no time flat.

As things stand, why should any of the generation and retailing companies invest further in infrastructure? They can sit back, slurp creamy cash off their customers, and when their capacity overloads, shrug and flick the 'off' switch - it ain't them feeling the pain.

Perhaps that situation is what Gubmint needs to remedy. Make the utility-company motherfuckers accountable. Make them bleed.

[jrandom]

So... what does a nuclear submarine do with all its excess power?

Nuclear reactors create heat, which is used to drive steam turbines. Unlike power plants which drive steam turbines off heat created by burning coal, oil or gas, nuclear reactors can't be easily turned up or down, on or off. They're best just fired up and left to happily fission their way through their fuel, uninterrupted, with any unwanted heat energy thrown away.

One design issue for nuclear reactors is ensuring a sufficient supply of water to both drive the steam turbines and carry away waste heat from the reactor.

It is fairly obvious to the casual observer that this isn't a difficult problem to solve when designing a reactor to power a submarine.

:laugh:

[ynot slow]

Tiwai Pt smelter takes something like 15% of national power?I think was stated on the news.Also when minister David Parker states no power outages this winter,who do you believe?

The last major cutbacks in 94? was good for us at work,we went from 7pm closing on Friday night to 6pm to save power,never looked back.With the cutbacks the H/W cylinder wouldn't heat enough,change the thermostat and element to 3kw(was 1kw)and turn it up,so when power off the cylinder had a reasonable temp to it,did this towards the end of the cutbacks but worked well.Also Tues & Thurs were soccer practice and we had gas heating so a good shower was enjoyed with heaps of hot water,then come Saturday by the time we got into showers after the curtain raisers most of water was luke warm,worst part was we played 7 games away with clubs with electric H/Wcylinders,only 2 were homegames with gas,then normal service resumed.

Who cares what fires the stations,heat is needed in winter,stuff the greens,let them freeze if they wish too.Had a couple of outages last month on Fridays around 5pm,only for an hour or so but bloody anoying,feel for the southeners when it is off for days and snowing.

[kevfromcoro]

So... what does a nuclear submarine do with all its excess power?

Thats a point.....
Mayebe we could hook a couple of them mothers into the national grid.

[McDuck]

Power cuts are fun.

The last time I was affected by one was during the Great Corroded Shackle Debacle of 2006. I got the day off work.

I don't recall being affected by one between then and the time I was taking a leak in the bathroom on the 15th floor of the Auckland Club Tower in February 1998 and all the lights went out.

:doh:

I got most of the month off work, that time.

If Joe Average Small Customer could tie utility companies down to service-level contracts with strict financial penalties surrounding breaches (I suspect that the large single industrial customers already do, but that doesn't help anybody else; in fact, it probably fucks things up when they get priority) we'd have a bulletproof electricity grid infrastructure in no time flat.

As things stand, why should any of the generation and retailing companies invest further in infrastructure? They can sit back, slurp creamy cash off their customers, and when their capacity overloads, shrug and flick the 'off' switch - it ain't them feeling the pain.

Perhaps that situation is what Gubmint needs to remedy. Make the utility-company motherfuckers accountable. Make them bleed.

What happens when a piss head takes out a power pole? We need more hydro, and we need to better use the ones we have.

[megageoff76]

Thats it !!!
we need lightning, a flux capacitor and a delorean ..... that will fix all of our power problems :niceone:

Screw that, every home needs to install a Mr Fusion.

[puddytat]

I'd tell RioTinto to go take a hike for the winter & turn off the smelter....we could also pay them a few mill compo for lost production & put the workers on a benefit so they could go on holiday for the winter....still a 'Dam' site cheaper than a nuclear option or coal or water for that matter

[devnull]

For people saying go nuclear, NZ couldn't actually go nuclear if they wanted to.. it's been widely reported that even the smallest nuclear power station would produce epic amounts more power then NZ would even know what to do with. Therefore, do as Steam suggested and turn on more shite and we may actually be able to go nuclear!

This constant struggle with the power demands has been going on for a couple of decades now.. nothing new. Auckland will do a whole load of bugger all (bless us) and they'll bitch the most. The Southerner's will go weeks without power and not make a single noise. Then it'll all just be forgotten about and eveything will go back to how it was.

Always has, always will..

Dunno where you got that info from, but it's wrong.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf77.html

or even better:

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html

[Robert Taylor]

Shoot the greenies and bring on nuclear power. Its not the most future proof idea, but I hate tree huggers.

We are all ''green'' at heart but there are those who are also realistic. 9 years in power and nothing has been done to address the power issue. Another nail in Labours coffin.

[McDuck]

I'd tell RioTinto to go take a hike for the winter & turn off the smelter....we could also pay them a few mill compo for lost production & put the workers on a benefit so they could go on holiday for the winter....still a 'Dam' site cheaper than a nuclear option or coal or water for that matter

You do know one of the things they make is the metal for the control flaps for the airbus A380s? Why should we penilise there buisnes becasue some pen pusher cant to his job properly?

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://www.btinternet.com/~privatepikessite/Image9_WEB.jpg">

Panic, Cpt. Mainwaring!

They say there isn't enough power and we need to cut back on it, so in theory the country can't develop or increase production.

Because we simply couldn't make another coal plant, no, that'd be too logical :shutup:

[SPman]

You do know one of the things they make is the metal for the control flaps for the airbus A380s? Why should we penilise there buisnes becasue some pen pusher cant to his job properly?
Penilise?
Buisnes?
Becasue?

Language of the future, perhaps?

It would be cheaper to tell Ti Wai to take a jump and pay for the redundancies. - that would save $50m and leave more power in the kitty.
Could also do what Germany has done - encourage household photo voltaic cell installation with subsidies and generous feed in tariffs - 15% of all power in Germany is now produced by householders - the equivalent of 3 medium sized power stations.
Trouble is, it takes someone to get off their arse and think laterally and with conviction - something not renowned among NZ politicians...or the public, for that matter.....they'd much rather winge and pass the buck!

[McDuck]

Penilise?
Buisnes?
Becasue?

Language of the future, perhaps?

fuck you.

It would be cheaper to tell Ti Wai to take a jump and pay for the redundancies. - that would save $50m and leave more power in the kitty.
Could also do what Germany has done - encourage household photo voltaic cell installation with subsidies and generous feed in tariffs - 15% of all power in Germany is now produced by householders - the equivalent of 3 medium sized power stations.
Trouble is, it takes someone to get off their arse and think laterally and with conviction - something not renowned among NZ politicians...or the public, for that matter.....they'd much rather winge and pass the buck!
Again why should we make them close when they are making world leading product? Why cant the people whos job it is to ensure enough power is about do thai job properly?
<tencharactors>

[Winston001]

So I reckon we have to waste as much power as we can afford, to make such a terrible situation of rolling blackouts that someone is forced to do something soon, build more generation for the coming years.

Yeah! That'll solve it!:third:

Cool - that's the best suggestion I've come across yet!! :niceone: And the tragedy is, its true. Nine years including six of the best prosperity NZ has seen for decades and what does our Nanny Government do?? State-funded sex changes, rap tours, restricted political advertising.....spare me days!!

[Zuki Bandit]

Power crisis? It's all a conspiracy:shifty:

[BOGAR]

Tiwai Pt smelter takes something like 15% of national power?I think was stated on the news.Also when minister David Cunliffe states no power outages this winter,who do you believe?


The problem was that they almost built and owned the power station them selves so they could have had their own power supply. That is why they get such a good deal. They were not allowed to own it so the get cheep electricity instead.

Plus the power cable across the gap being switched off many months ago, before the power crises. I reckon it was just a way to fast track a new cable going in and i think it is also what they are doing to get other projects ahead quicker. but then i am a pit paranoid.:lol:

[RC1]

same shit excuses, new season :mad:

[rainman]

Shoot the greenies and bring on nuclear power. Its not the most future proof idea, but I hate tree huggers.

Boring. And uninformed.


We are all ''green'' at heart but there are those who are also realistic. 9 years in power and nothing has been done to address the power issue. Another nail in Labours coffin.

Pleased to hear it, Robert. And you have a valid point that this will be seen as another nail for Labour. I'd have liked to see heaps more renewables.

[yungatart]

Power crisis? It's all a conspiracy:shifty:

Never a truer word spoken on KB!

[davereid]

Power crisis? It's all a conspiracy:shifty:

You may be right.

Labour has already suggested emergency legislation to allow hydro lakes to be lowered just to get through the "crisis".

Its easy to SAY green things all the time. As long as you can engineer a "crisis", so you can do what you want.

One of the problems with the Greens is, that they are happy for us all to make a "sacrifice" for global warming.

As long as that sacrifice is about freezing your granny to death its OK.

As soon as it means flooding a valley to make hydro energy, it's no longer a sacrifice. Its simply not thinkable !

[Jantar]

Dunno where you got that info from, but it's wrong.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf77.html

or even better:

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
Unfortunately, he's right. Your link starts with
An international task force is developing six nuclear reactor technologies for deployment between 2020 and 2030. Four are fast neutron reactors.

Maybe you hadn't noticed but this is only 2008. The closest to a suitable sized reactor for New Zealand is the new Westinghouse 360 MW unit which is being developed now. All going well it well it will receive certification in 2010.

The latest discussion on nuclear was http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=67724

[Flatcap]

Well, I've got gas hot water, gas stove and gas heating, so they can turn the power off for all I care

[Swoop]

Thats a point.....
Mayebe we could hook a couple of them mothers into the national grid.
That is what Dave Lobster was intimating.
JRandom went technical and got his pocket protector onto a tangent.:rofl:

Yup. Park up a nuke sub and plug it into the power socket.
It also would have the advantage of making tree-hugging greenies have heart attacks!:rockon:

[Jantar]

I'd tell RioTinto to go take a hike for the winter & turn off the smelter....we could also pay them a few mill compo for lost production & put the workers on a benefit so they could go on holiday for the winter....still a 'Dam' site cheaper than a nuclear option or coal or water for that matter

Good idea, but not practical. Aluminuim smelters are designed to be run constantly, and even planned shutdowns of potlines cost millions in plant degradation. In the event of a South Island wide blackout, the restoration procedures have energy to Tiwai as the first priority, major cities are next.

[Flatcap]

Yup. Park up a nuke sub and plug it into the power socket.
It also would have the advantage of making tree-hugging greenies have heart attacks!:rockon:

I've always thought that Marsden Point was a good place for a reactor.
Its away from the fault lines, in an area that is already rooted environmentally, and if it melts down the prevailing wind will blow the radiation out into the pacific

[davereid]

The closest to a suitable sized reactor for New Zealand is the new Westinghouse 360 MW unit which is being developed now. All going well it well it will receive certification in 2010.[/url]

The catch with nuclear, is the fuss !

Why would you do battle with all the greenies, all the councils, all the NIMBYs and everyone else with an un-informed opinion just for 360MW ?

Everyone knows you only need a solar panel or a gadget stuck in Cook Strait and we will have plenty of electricity !

[Jantar]

Eh? Who is to blame?
Power companies?
Planning regulations?
The Guvvmint?
A simple lack of rain?
All of the above?
Jantar probably knows all the answers.

I can't say I know all the answers, but I can supply part of them.

Who is to blame? One man, Max Bradford. When he set about splitting up New Zealand's Power System, that was the start of the road to shortages. Certainly there were inefficiencies in the way the system used to run as a government department. It was beureaucratic, and top heavy with administration. Yet it worked well as far as forward planning went, and the plant was run in a sfae and complimentary manner. After the re-organisations and split up, the efficiency improvement was phenomenal, and resposibility for many operating decisions passed to those who understood their plant the best.

The downside was the design of the market. Because all generators get paid the cleared nodal price rather than their offer price there was no incentive for companies to offer generation at the true cost of production, and great disincentive to even own peaking or marginal plant. Hence so many stations de-commissioned in the past 16 years.

Demand has continued to grow at around 2.5% per annum, but new generation has not kept pace. And the new generation that has been built (Otahuhu B, TCC, Huntly E3P) is mainly base load plant and unable to be ramped like hydro.

The weather conditions this year have not helped. It has been a dry year, yet not excessively dry. We have had many years in the past with lower inflows, but not combined with lack of storage. This is a direct result of the market. As more wind generation comes online this situation we are seeing this year will only get worse.

[McDuck]

The weather conditions this year have not helped. It has been a dry year, yet not excessively dry. We have had many years in the past with lower inflows, but not combined with lack of storage. This is a direct result of the market. As more wind generation comes online this situation we are seeing this year will only get worse.

Altho hopfully there will be enough spreed to give the hydros a reliable brake to recharge.

[BOGAR]

Well, I've got gas hot water, gas stove and gas heating, so they can turn the power off for all I care

Saw the same thing on TV but without power the gas doesn't work. try it tonight when your home (hot water mainly). Your stove should still go but don't think the rest will.

[Usarka]

Please remember everyone that the word CRISIS being used is by the media only.

The government is confident that everything will be ok and this is a normal cyclical event.

The "Electricity Supply Industry" will be campaigning to people to conserve power shortly. During election year this has NOTHING to do with the governement.

Thank you.

[Flatcap]

Saw the same thing on TV but without power the gas doesn't work. try it tonight when your home (hot water mainly). Your stove should still go but don't think the rest will.

Depends how flash your heating is

However, they can't turn off my hot water (as they did during the last power crises) as I'm no longer connected to their ripple control. HA!

[Usarka]

Depends how flash your heating is

However, they can't turn off my hot water (as they did during the last power crises) as I'm no longer connected to their ripple control. HA!

When they turn off my hot water i heat it in the oven in a huge soup pot. Takes 4 times as much electrictity - haha that'll fuck em.

[Jantar]

Altho hopfully there will be enough spreed to give the hydros a reliable brake to recharge.
Sorry, but this is where the RMA doesn't allow wind and hydro to be the nice easy mix it should be. All three major river systems have stringent minimum flow requirements, so even if there was sufficient spread of wind generation, the hydros aren't permitted to reduce their water flow much at all. In the Clutha river the minimum winter flow was increased from 100 cumecs to 250 cumecs with the new resource consent. Hence a lack of stored water as we head into winter.

[Usarka]

Pardon my ignorance Jantar that's interesting - when was the increase to 250 cumecs?

Was this because of increased populations "downstream"?

Or just consultative and inclusive bollox that keeps things from progressing in this country?

[Jantar]

Pardon my ignorance Jantar that's interesting - when was the increase to 250 cumecs?

Was this because of increased populations "downstream"?

Or just consultative and inclusive bollox that keeps things from progressing in this country?
It took effect in June last year, and was just one of many new consent conditions imposed with the reconsenting process. At the same time the minimum flow from lake hawea was increased from 6 to 10 cumecs.

There are no increased downstream populations, just something that the Otago Regional Council, and Fish and Game wanted.

[Fooman]

There hasn't been any major generating capacity added in NZ since the Clyde Dam. The population has increased 50% since then, plus more electrical demand.
Is it any real surprise?
G

Clyde Dam: 432 MW, fully operational in 1992

Since then, off the top of my head (actually looking up some 2005 data plus the top of my head)

Thermal:
Edgecumbe: 10 MW installed 1996
Te Awmotu Co-gen: 27 MW installed 1996
Whareroa Co-gen: 70 MW installed 1997
Glenbrook co-gen" 74 MW installed 1998
Kinleith Co-gen: 40 MW installed 1998
Southdown 1&2: 123 MW installed 1998
Kapuni Co-gen: 20 MW installed 1998
Taranaki Combined Cycle: 377 MW, installed 1998
Otahuhu B: 404 MW, installed 1999
Te Rapa Co-gen: 45 MW, installed 1999
Whirinaki peaking : 155 MW installed 2004
Huntly Unit 6: 50 MW installed 2004
Pan Pac Cogen: 13 MW installed 2005
Huntly Unit 5 (E3P): 385 MW, installed 2007
Southdown 3: additional 47MW installed 2007


Geothermal:
Poihipi: 55 MW, installed 1997
Ngawha: 11 MW installed 1998
Rotokawa: 42 MW installed 1999
Mokai: 68 MW, installed 2000
Wairakei Binary: 14 MW installed 2005

Hydro:
Manapouri Tailrace Project: additional 170 MW, completed 2002ish

Wind
Te Apiti: 91 MW, installed 2004
Taraua: 68 MW, installed 2004

I'm probably missing a couple of wind/geothermal. There are also reasonable amounts of generation in the process of installation, e.g. Stratford peaking, wind farms, some more geothermal etc.

Cheers,
FM

[Tank]

At the end of the day - being more responsible with electricity (Energy efficient bulbs - turning off lights, wrap on the water cylinder etc) dosnt actually do any harm, and it saves you money.

My power bill is iro $350 per month.

We have noticed changing bulbs to energy efficient and turning off lights etc has dropped this about $60 - one assumes that the savings are actually greater because our bill normally goes up in winter.


btw - its a newish home so fully insulated, but we normally have the curtains open for the view. Closing them at night has made a HUGE difference for retaining heat (DUH) - so we only need to heat the main floor for 30 mins and its toasty and stays that way for the night (that probably accounted for a lot of our winter increases).


Now before you start bashing me for being a greeny - Id rather stick my dick in the blades of a waste disposal unit before buying a hybrid car.

[Usarka]

Now before you start bashing me for being a greeny

At $350 a month I'd hardly call you a greenie :gob:

[Dilligaf]

At $350 a month I'd hardly call you a greenie :gob:

Hear hear. Crikey $350!!! :thud:

[Forest]

Thats a point.....
Mayebe we could hook a couple of them mothers into the national grid.

Don't laugh - but during the last nationwide power crisis there was serious discussion about docking the Cook Strait ferries and connecting their generators directly into the National Grid.

[Jantar]

Clyde Dam: 432 MW, fully operational in 1992....

...I'm probably missing a couple of wind/geothermal. There are also reasonable amounts of generation in the process of installation, e.g. Stratford peaking, wind farms, some more geothermal etc.


Not a bad effort, and only a few minor changes required. eg McLachlan Geothermal and Poihipi are the same station. Although the nameplate rating is 55MW it shares the same steamfield with Wairakei and the resultant resource consent conditions and steam transfer limits mean that it is effectlvely a 41 MW station.

The main point about the list of new generation is that apart from the Manapouri Tailrace project, they are all baseload stations or wind farms which puts more stress on hydro storage. The total new does not make up for the total decommissioned plus natural demand increases.

[rphenix]

Eh? Who is to blame?
Power companies?
Planning regulations?
The Guvvmint?
A simple lack of rain?
All of the above?
Jantar probably knows all the answers.


Well theres been a few hydro dams etc proposed in the past but the Greens or someone usually veto's that idea so are we surprised were now in the shit?

Personally I can see why people have problem with Nuclear, or coal plants but buggered if I can see the downsides of a nice hydro dam sure a slightly elevated risk of flooding but how bad for the environment can a man made lake be?

Added bonus they make for good fishing and jet boating.

[Mikkel]

Nuclear reactors create heat, which is used to drive steam turbines. Unlike power plants which drive steam turbines off heat created by burning coal, oil or gas, nuclear reactors can't be easily turned up or down, on or off. They're best just fired up and left to happily fission their way through their fuel, uninterrupted, with any unwanted heat energy thrown away.

Whether this be indeed the case or not, producing excessive power can hardly be considered a problem!

Hell, if you need to direct it somewhere - how about putting in some rather large pumps moving water from the west coast up over the main divide and into the dwindling lakes on the east side to alleviate diminishing lake water levels?


Tiwai Pt smelter takes something like 15% of national power?I think was stated on the news.Also when minister David Cunliffe states no power outages this winter,who do you believe?

But Tiwai was the only justification for the Manapouri power station IIRC?


Yup. Park up a nuke sub and plug it into the power socket.
It also would have the advantage of making tree-hugging greenies have heart attacks!:rockon:

Just buy the tail of an old Soviet nuclear sub and install the reactor somewhere... Heaps of cheap power for years to come :yes:

Actually we were a few guys from uni who were contemplating this as the base for a self-sufficient commune when we were about to leave university. Combined with some acres of barley, wheat, cannabis and fruit trees we thought we had a pretty good recipe for a never ending party and cheap hobbies (brewing, baking, distilling and mucking around with nuclear reactors... sounds like a decent life to me :D )


Pardon my ignorance Jantar that's interesting - when was the increase to 250 cumecs?

250 is a much nicer number than 100 - 100 is not only smaller it's also rather boring and, frankly, too common :yes:


At the end of the day - being more responsible with electricity (Energy efficient bulbs - turning off lights, wrap on the water cylinder etc) dosnt actually do any harm, and it saves you money.

Some of the power guys here at the electrical engineering department said something along the line that if everybody switched to energy-saving lightbulbs the whole grid was likely to get in trouble - something about the impedance of the fuckers having some sort of periodic time oscillation IIRC...

Not to be an arsehole, but what you call fully insulated houses down here we call cardboard boxes in Scandinavia. Some issues would be alleviated by introducing proper thermally insulating double glazing, rock/glasswool wall insulation and central heating (nuclear power plants are good for this as well I believe). Not just the power crisis - it would also improve general health, the 'nevermind the frost on the duvet, HTFU and wear another sweater' attitude actually doesn't do anything good for you in the long run...

I also believe that I heard somewhere that modern coal power plants are not exactly the polluting pigs they are made out to be...

[McDuck]

You guys forgot another 90 odd megawats at kawerau being commishioned in about a month and a half.

[Fooman]

The main point about the list of new generation is that apart from the Manapouri Tailrace project, they are all baseload stations or wind farms which puts more stress on hydro storage. The total new does not make up for the total decommissioned plus natural demand increases.

I would consider Whirinaki a peaker, along with the ghost of NP. I was astounded when the guys at Huntly told me Unit 6 was base load, but I guess if it makes a profit running that way, then so be it ( I have a couple of v. expensive bits from it on my desk as I write).

Quick query of MED data shows that ~2500 MW has been added after Clyde, in a total of ~9000 MW as of June 2007.

I've got little knowledge on the amount of generation been lost since then, maybe 700 to 900 MW based on davidreid's post, depending on how much of NP you consider as been decommissioned since then.

So anywhere from 18% to 20% of current (maximum) capacity has been added since 1992. Population growth and phone chargers (and 50" plasmas, and playstations and computers, and...) have a lot to answer for.

Cheers,
FM

[Tank]

Combined with some acres of barley, wheat, cannabis and fruit trees we thought we had a pretty good recipe for a never ending party and cheap hobbies (brewing, baking, distilling and mucking around with nuclear reactors... sounds like a decent life to me :D )

Now THATS how to throw a party. :rockon:



Some of the power guys here at the electrical engineering department said something along the line that if everybody switched to energy-saving lightbulbs the whole grid was likely to get in trouble - something about the impedance of the fuckers having some sort of periodic time oscillation IIRC...

That is interesting. (runs off to read up just out of curiosity)



Not to be an arsehole, but what you call fully insulated houses down here we call cardboard boxes in Scandinavia. Some issues would be alleviated by introducing proper thermally insulating double glazing, rock/glasswool wall insulation and central heating (nuclear power plants are good for this as well I believe). Not just the power crisis - it would also improve general health, the 'nevermind the frost on the duvet, HTFU and wear another sweater' attitude actually doesn't do anything good for you in the long run...

That's not being an arsehole - that's just fact. Our insulation sucks - Id love to have a house built with the warmth / dryness of the one we had when I lived in the UK - its got to be so much better for your families health.

[Swoop]

by introducing proper thermally insulating double glazing
This requirement has been passed.
A drawback is the simple fact that the NZ Standard timber profiles used throughout the country (for decades) does not comply or provide a fitment for double glazing.
The only alternative is aluminium, which is a thermal conductor of outside temperatures.

[Mikkel]

This requirement has been passed.
A drawback is the simple fact that the NZ Standard timber profiles used throughout the country (for decades) does not comply or provide a fitment for double glazing.
The only alternative is aluminium, which is a thermal conductor of outside temperatures.

Oh, what I meant is that there is double glazing and then there's double glazing...

The stuff I have seen here in NZ are just two panes of glass mounted with an airgap between them.

If you do it properly you have a very precise and sealed gap between the panes either filled with a dry and inert gas (nitrogen being an obvious choice) or with a vacuum to provide a thermally barrier and no condensation. (and yes, I am aware that technically you don't fill a space with a vacuum :rolleyes:)

Of course there are standardisation issues when designing such technologically demanding windows. As such the kiwi house building culture would need an overhaul since I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that currently most windows are custom cut to size as the architect envisioned. This is at least the impression I have got.

[Swoop]

Oh, what I meant is that there is double glazing and then there's double glazing...

The stuff I have seen here in NZ are just two panes of glass mounted with an airgap between them.
Undoubtedly these will exist around the place. Probably retrofits or something "devised" prior to the regulations being introduced.

If you do it properly you have a very precise and sealed gap between the panes either filled with a dry and inert gas (nitrogen being an obvious choice) or with a vacuum to provide a thermally barrier and no condensation.
It is done properly. They are sealed, DG units that are fitted, filled with inert gas. The glazing companies should be aware of this.

Of course there are standardisation issues when designing such technologically demanding windows. As such the kiwi house building culture would need an overhaul since I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that currently most windows are custom cut to size as the architect envisioned. This is at least the impression I have got.
You are quite correct. Designers (bastards, all of them!) do not have the idea that standardisation would allow cheaper production runs and hence cheaper housing prices.
A workmate has just spent 20k having aluminium joinery retrofitted to his house... he now says it is too hot and has to open the windows.

Architects and designers just want to build monuments to themselves.

As it stands, south island and as far north as the central plateau of the north island, require double glazed windows for new houses.

[Jantar]

I would consider Whirinaki a peaker, along with the ghost of NP. I was astounded when the guys at Huntly told me Unit 6 was base load, but I guess if it makes a profit running that way, then so be it ( I have a couple of v. expensive bits from it on my desk as I write).

Quick query of MED data shows that ~2500 MW has been added after Clyde, in a total of ~9000 MW as of June 2007.

I've got little knowledge on the amount of generation been lost since then, maybe 700 to 900 MW based on davidreid's post, depending on how much of NP you consider as been decommissioned since then.

So anywhere from 18% to 20% of current (maximum) capacity has been added since 1992. Population growth and phone chargers (and 50" plasmas, and playstations and computers, and...) have a lot to answer for.

Cheers,
FM

Yes, the new Whirinaki station was built as a peaker, but with the ramping it has been doing just this year, it is already having technical issues.

To update Davidreid's data:
POWER STATIONS DECOMISSIONED 1990-2008:
New Plymouth, 2007 (575 MW)
Stratford, 1999 (220 MW)
Marsden A, 1992 (120 MW)
Otahuhu A, 2002 (240 MW), but 140 MW was unavailable before the 1992 crisis
Whirinaki ‘a’, 2002 (216 MW)
Meremere, 1990 (140), 133 when operated as a coupled steam bus system.

One unit at New Plymouth has been recomissioned at 103 MW for this winter only.

I'll have to check the MED data, as the most generation I've ever seen offered is just under 7000 MW total, and around 400 MW of this must be kept for FIR. I know that the MED does use name plate ratings even if the plant can't ever reach that level of generation, but I believe they are really leading NZ for disaster if they are basing their planning on 9000 MW available generation.

[Mikkel]

It is done properly. They are sealed, DG units that are fitted, filled with inert gas. The glazing companies should be aware of this.

Good to hear - because I was having a bit of a snicker when I heard about the regulations about forcing people to build houses with double glazing if there were no sane regulations about what constitutes double glazing...


You are quite correct. Designers (bastards, all of them!) do not have the idea that standardisation would allow cheaper production runs and hence cheaper housing prices.
A workmate has just spent 20k having aluminium joinery retrofitted to his house... he now says it is too hot and has to open the windows.

It's crazy eh! But getting rid of the condensation and the black mold that seems to follow it is worth a lot though...


As it stands, south island and as far north as the central plateau of the north island, require double glazed windows for new houses.

That's good to hear. However, with proper foresight this should have been introduced 20 years ago and the power crisis might never have occurred. Ironically this is being introduced during an economical depression where house building is likely to be at a minimum.

[PrincessBandit]

So... what does a nuclear submarine do with all its excess power?
Haven't you ever seen all the dead fish left in their wake from the toxic farts they send out?



My power bill is iro $350 per month.


Crikey!!! I won't ever complain about ours again!

I remember the water shortage crisis about 16 years ago when it was all "if it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown flush it down" and all that stuff (was gonna say shit but was a bit obvious..) We had a large water tank at the end of the garage for rain water and going out to lug bucket after bucket of water from that to put in the washing machine - the tops of my arms were never so trim and taut!!!
Doesn't seem to matter how good we are at turning things off and trying to be efficient our power bill just keeps getting bigger and bigger. :oi-grr:

[SPman]

fuck you.<tencharactors>
Why, thank you.


House designers in NZ and here in Aus should all be shot. They pay minor lip service to insulation - the minimum they can get away with, there's actually a higher level of insulation requirements in Aus, and don't seem to have a clue about energy efficient housing , so that housing in NZ is generally, crap!
</tencharactors>Ohhh it's too expensive, no one can afford it! Bullshit! All it takes is a bit of thought and effort, cost increases are minimal over a standard box and there are a lot of people out there who do know how to put together an efficient, low energy requiring package.
<tencharactors>Plus short term subsidisation, to encourage people into alternative power sources.
Here in West Aus, there is $3000 available towards replacing your electric water heater with solar, and $8000 subsidy for installing photo voltaic power - not a lot, but it helps, and, if they sort out the feed in tariffs, to make panels worthwhile, it'll be even better.

It's time the NZ government got of it's moribund arse, (either party) and actually looked at innovative longer term planning, instead of lurching from short term crisis, to short term crisis and if power shortages and expensive fuel are needed to stir the pot, good!


</tencharactors>

[avgas]

At least people out there like Jantar (and others) that have a clue have cleared up alot of misconceptions that are out there.
Just looking at my desk right now you can add the following Gen schemes:
- Ngawha
- Something at Pioneer Energy?
- West wind farm
- Mangaoi?
and a pile of others (...look there is Te Apiti refurbish.....)
Yes consumption has increase but now we are less reliant on Hydro now.

Now what else is there....
- Nuclear power can go as big or as small as you want (google pebblebed plants) and can be turned up or down as much as you want (google control rods). But the disadvantages is it doesn't like turning off and it has 'do-do's that last a very long time (half life's even :) ).
- The grid can handle alot more than we are using (1 DC link is currently disconnected from recall) - but some of it is not in the best condition, and alot of it is still inefficient (hense the DC link extension, and various powerlines being upgraded in voltage).
- Manapouri is a engineering achievement for NZ. I hope the old girl never gets decommisioned.
- The problem should sit with the consumer, why are people not telling you its a crisis - because they are SUPPLYING you. If they have issues they can charge you MORE. Consumers are the suckers here if they dont change their ways......Petrol Crisis anyone....

[Swoop]

That's good to hear. However, with proper foresight this should have been introduced 20 years ago
Unfortunately it was caused by Leaky building syndrome:rofl:. More like crap designing, shit inspections and poor quality workmanship by carpenters.
Oh, also using untreated timber...:blink:

[k14]

- The problem should sit with the consumer, why are people not telling you its a crisis - because they are SUPPLYING you. If they have issues they can charge you MORE. Consumers are the suckers here if they dont change their ways......Petrol Crisis anyone....
Do you care to elaborate on that point?

Currently no there is no power crisis. Is there a possibility of one? Yes, most definately. If you just take a quick glance at the below graph you will see where we stand currently. If the current dry conditions continue over winter and through to early sept there is a very real possibility of rolling blackouts. At the moment it is hard to say what the likelihood of this is but it certainly is a real possibility.

Saying that power companies like high prices is a pretty nieve statement tio make. By doing so indicates what little knowledge of the industry you really have. The main cause for the current percieved hydro shortage is the lack of new infrastructure investment over the last 10 or so years since the industry was privatised. A big problem at the moment is the HVDC link having a big chunk of it not allowed to be used. The main reason for it being taken out of service is that Transpower couldn't get any company to insure them for using it. It was put in yonks ago and is miles past its used by date. I believe its one of only 2 still in service in the world using mercury arc valves (the other in british columbia i think???). The other thing is that they cannot source spare parts for it any more. I think I read something saying replacing it was approx $700 million and would take 5 years or something. Just one of the many inadequacies of the current NZ transmission and generation infrastructure.

I'm quite happy though, I've got my gas fire and petrol generator in the garage so don't mind which way it goes.

[ManDownUnder]

Amasing how the power companies tell you to use less when they can supply less but don't worry about inefficiencies between times. It's almost like they want us to use lots of power.

As for me... 3500 Watt generator, male to male extension cords (x2) to connect it up to the house, turn the power off at the meter board and do whatever the hell I like.

*yawn*

Easy peasy... albeit slightly naughty...

[klingon]

Saw the same thing on TV but without power the gas doesn't work. try it tonight when your home (hot water mainly). Your stove should still go but don't think the rest will.

Eh? Why is that? If it's true it means my plan won't work as well as I thought... I still have gas cooking and a cosy fire in the living room but no hot water?!

[avgas]

Do you care to elaborate on that point?
Are your sure you read all my post? I never mentioned that a power crisis truly existed (this will clear up any misconceptions about what i don't know about the industry hopefully). Yes Hydro is at its lowest since 1992.....but as i stated earlier, we are not 70% reliant on it as we were in 1992. Is it 50% now? I'm not sure (not my area).
As for investment, there has been lots since then (as i also stated) and there will continue to do so (mainly is distribution by the looks of the spreadsheets).
So to elaborate in my statement, power companies are just that companies. They have income and expense. Any power company that tells you they are not making profit or planning to increase profit is telling you little fibs.
This does not make them evil, it makes them realistic. You are right in the aspect that some of the gear in the industry is old (like 60+ year old overcurrent relays :devil2::crybaby:) but it also is an industry that uses the "if it aint broke dont fix it" mentality. This is bad and good - bad cos its old, good cos its reliable.
All im stating is that it is all fine for people to say "they should do this", "they need to make more".........but it doesn't stop the problem that is the increase in INDIVIDUAL CONSUMER SUPPLY.
That is the customers responsibility, and the only way the supplier can change it is by affecting the price to the end user. But once again everyone points a finger and no-one shields the blame.

[The Stranger]

Power crisis?

K&N, modify the air box, gut the cats and add a PC3 should help.

[Mikkel]

- Manapouri is a engineering achievement for NZ. I hope the old girl never gets decommisioned.

-Built by American cooperations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manapouri_Power_Station#Construction_history

:bleh:


Power crisis?

K&N, modify the air box, gut the cats and add a PC3 should help.

If that doesn't do it, just chuck a turbo on it.

[SPman]

Unfortunately it was caused by Leaky building syndrome:rofl:. More like crap designing, shit inspections and poor quality workmanship by carpenters.
Oh, also using untreated timber...:blink:
Shit inspections - inspected according to the rules in place at the time,- badly.
Not when I was around though!

[Goblin]

Here's my contribution to the power crisis. :niceone:

[avgas]

-Built by American cooperations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manapouri_Power_Station#Construction_history
Make it sound like thats a bad thing. So was most of the good stuff in NZ. Thanks to these guys... (http://www.downeredi.com/Default.aspx?aCateId=816)

[avgas]

noticed that a few people here have their own 'back-up supply' at home.
just a short question out their - how many people have thought of running their own supply (solar/generator/wind........mouse on a wheel) and going off the grid?
I currently am starting to convert my stuff at home to "worse-case-scenario" setups - Solar charging for the PDA cellphone, dyno powered torch......and looking into solar charging for the laptop. Not due to any power crisis - but because i want to put this gear in a backpack and go for a ride, or go for travels.
However if i owned my own house i would consider keeping it off the grid and going self-sufficient rather than 'extending the deck etc'. Dunno why - but mabey just to feel good. Anyone else had these thoughts?

[McDuck]

noticed that a few people here have their own 'back-up supply' at home.
just a short question out their - how many people have thought of running their own supply (solar/generator/wind........mouse on a wheel) and going off the grid?
I currently am starting to convert my stuff at home to "worse-case-scenario" setups - Solar charging for the PDA cellphone, dyno powered torch......and looking into solar charging for the laptop. Not due to any power crisis - but because i want to put this gear in a backpack and go for a ride, or go for travels.
However if i owned my own house i would consider keeping it off the grid and going self-sufficient rather than 'extending the deck etc'. Dunno why - but mabey just to feel good. Anyone else had these thoughts?

I have thought about it. And asked a few people who have. I have not yet found a person who had the choice and has gone with it for more than about 5 years. You need to spend damn near 60 000 dollers on a set up if you want to have a 'normal' usage pattern-not financially worth it unless you have to install power poles to get mains to your house. Even then for many it is not worth it.

[FLYMO]

we should go fart in front of a wind farm
no harm in blocking a few shitty rivers for more dams either

[Disco Dan]

I have a gas stove (and a BBQ if needed) and lotsa candles. The biggest problem would be my tropical fish tank. Poor little fishies don't like the cold! :cold:

Buy yourself a computer UPS - hook your tank up to that. Most power cuts dont last more than 3 hours. If you only hook up the filtration and the heater, it will last no problem.

[Shadows]

The main point about the list of new generation is that apart from the Manapouri Tailrace project, they are all baseload stations or wind farms which puts more stress on hydro storage.

I don't get it.

Baseload stations or not, how can increased generation put more stress on hydro storage?

Please explain for the benefit of myself and the rest of the dumb cunts.

[Zookey]

noticed that a few people here have their own 'back-up supply' at home.
just a short question out their - how many people have thought of running their own supply (solar/generator/wind........mouse on a wheel) and going off the grid?
I currently am starting to convert my stuff at home to "worse-case-scenario" setups - Solar charging for the PDA cellphone, dyno powered torch......and looking into solar charging for the laptop. Not due to any power crisis - but because i want to put this gear in a backpack and go for a ride, or go for travels.
However if i owned my own house i would consider keeping it off the grid and going self-sufficient rather than 'extending the deck etc'. Dunno why - but mabey just to feel good. Anyone else had these thoughts?
For all its worth Super Cheap have a generator on sale for $300 bucks that will keep the deep freeze running at least in a power blackout
.but would defeat owning an ecological car as youd double the fuel bill:whocares:

[Jantar]

I don't get it.

Baseload stations or not, how can increased generation put more stress on hydro storage?

Please explain for the benefit of myself and the rest of the dumb cunts.
OK, I realise that it is counter intuitive.

New Zealand is on a single time zone. That means that not much generation is needed overnight. Most people get out of bed at around the same time in the morning, so the demand increases rapidly; around 2000 MW increase between 6:00 am and 8:00 am. Baseload stations, are quite slow at ramping, or changing their generation, that is why they are called baseload. Hydro is required to ramp up quickly to meet this increase in demand, and as a result spends a lot of time in an inefficient range. This wastes water, and often requires the use of stored water, just to meet frequency keeping or PLSR that baseload stations can't provide.

Two months ago, when both Taupo and Waikaremoana were low, frequency keeping prices in the north island reached a record high because both Genisis and Mighty River had to use stored water, which was almost not available, to provide those services that baseload stations require.

[McDuck]

I don't get it.

Baseload stations or not, how can increased generation put more stress on hydro storage?

Please explain for the benefit of myself and the rest of the dumb cunts.

Becasue NZs power usage is not uniform. IE there is a high loading between the times of 7am and about 10am then a very high loading between 5pm and 8pm then it backed right off overnight. The 'base load' stations can not (easily) ramp up production around these times so it is up to the hydros than can easely step up production when needed.

[McDuck]

OK, I realise that it is counter intuitive.

New Zealand is on a single time zone. That means that not much generation is needed overnight. Most people get out of bed at around the same time in the morning, so the demand increases rapidly; around 2000 MW increase between 6:00 am and 8:00 am. Baseload stations, are quite slow at ramping, or changing their generation, that is why they are called baseload. Hydro is required to ramp up quickly to meet this increase in demand, and as a result spends a lot of time in an inefficient range. This wastes water, and often requires the use of stored water, just to meet frequency keeping or PLSR that baseload stations can't provide.

Two months ago, when both Taupo and Waikaremoana were low, frequency keeping prices in the north island reached a record high because both Genisis and Mighty River had to use stored water, which was almost not available, to provide those services that baseload stations require.



theif.....

[dipshit]

New Zealand is on a single time zone. That means that not much generation is needed overnight. Most people get out of bed at around the same time in the morning, so the demand increases rapidly; around 2000 MW increase between 6:00 am and 8:00 am.

Which kind of makes large-scale wind farms in NZ a stupid idea, doesn't it?

How do you get the wind to blow at peak demand times?

What happens to excess electricity generated by wind farms during the middle of the night?

[Winston001]

OK, I realise that it is counter intuitive.

New Zealand is on a single time zone. That means that not much generation is needed overnight. Most people get out of bed at around the same time in the morning, so the demand increases rapidly; around 2000 MW increase between 6:00 am and 8:00 am. Baseload stations, are quite slow at ramping, or changing their generation, that is why they are called baseload.

Hydro is required to ramp up quickly to meet this increase in demand, and as a result spends a lot of time in an inefficient range. This wastes water, and often requires the use of stored water, just to meet frequency keeping or PLSR that baseload stations can't provide.


Silly old me. I thought you opened the intake gate up a bit, the water flow increases, the generator spins faster, drags more electrons out of the Earth, and sends them down the line. Or maybe an idle generator spins up.

No??

[McDuck]

Silly old me. I thought you opened the intake gate up a bit, the water flow increases, the generator spins faster, drags more electrons out of the Earth, and sends them down the line. Or maybe an idle generator spins up.

No??

Its complicated.

[Jantar]

Silly old me. I thought you opened the intake gate up a bit, the water flow increases, the generator spins faster, drags more electrons out of the Earth, and sends them down the line. Or maybe an idle generator spins up.

No??

OK, lets see if I can explain it like this.

Just like any engine, a turbine has a set load at which it is most efficient. The majority of hydro stations in New Zealand are Francis Turbines, which generate 90% of their peak power while using only 80% of maximum water flow. However, when connected to the grid and generating nothing (called speed, no load) they use around 18% of maximum water flow. They also have a minimum load, usually around 50% of maximun generation which requires around 60% of maximum water flow. So any generation point that is not at the optimum uses far more water for each MW of generation.

Its just like riding your bike in the wrong gear with the choke on. You use a hell of a lot more fuel to go the same distance.

Now to "I thought you opened the intake gate up a bit, the water flow increases, the generator spins faster". The generator doesn't spin any faster at all. The speed of the generator is locked by the grid frequency, and once synchronised it doesn't matter whether the gates are only partially open or fully open, the speed wont change. A 40 pole generator will spin at 150 rpm irrespective of the amount of water going through it, or the power being produced.

[Fooman]

Now to "I thought you opened the intake gate up a bit, the water flow increases, the generator spins faster". The generator doesn't spin any faster at all. The speed of the generator is locked by the grid frequency, and once synchronised it doesn't matter whether the gates are only partially open or fully open, the speed wont change. A 40 pole generator will spin at 150 rpm irrespective of the amount of water going through it, or the power being produced.

Just to add to this - it is probably worth explaining that as load increases (i.e. half the country putting the kettle on at halftime), the grid frequency will want to drop - to keep it at the required grid frequency, more mechanical power needs to go into the generator - so you adjust the gates to supply the correct amount of mechanical energy to keep it at the grid frequency.

(all the above is ignorant mechanical engineering arm-wavery on an electrical engineering subject, subject to correction)

However, most power generation machines are designed to operate at a set speed, to avoid harmonic excitation and associated stress/strain cycling that can lead to fatigue failure. Therefore you do not want them to operate away from the design frequency for anything more than a few cycles - in NZ it's 50 Hz ± some small amount. I know Transpower at some point asked if some plants could support 47 or 48 Hz for a short amount of time (30 secs?) at full load, to accommodate fluctuations in load. Technically speaking, that would root a lot of expensive kit, so they were told in no uncertain terms, don't count on it buddy.

This is the thing that all the plant and transmission people have to juggle all the time. And it is one of the reasons why I do not begrudge Transpower having the highest % of staff who earn over 100k of any SOE/COE. It's a big responsibility to ensure everyone has power all of the time, which is why, in my opinion, the currently regulatory environment is poor, as it discourages prudent investment in power infrastructure for things like dry years and increasing demand.

It's all well and good having super efficient, high power power plants, but I was chatting to a former head of EPRI (big power research group in the (mainly) US a couple of years ago, and he ranked efficiency below maintainability, inspectability, reliability and most of all: availability of the power supply.

Cheers,
FM

[portokiwi]

I still like the option of wind farms. I saw the all over Europe.
Never heard any neg comments on it.
Wellington has so much even when the wind isnt blowing there is still a lot of wind comming out of the behive.
Wh cant say we dont get much wind and it dosnt take much wind.:banana:

[Deano]

I still like the option of wind farms. I saw the all over Europe.
Never heard any neg comments on it.
Wellington has so much even when the wind isnt blowing there is still a lot of wind comming out of the behive.
Wh cant say we dont get much wind and it dosnt take much wind.:banana:

I've seen a report that claims that the British and Danish Govt's have stopped ALL further wind turbine generator developments on land because of public health concerns.

Do a google search on windfarms and health or noise.

There is a shitload of debate out there.

[Jantar]

I still like the option of wind farms. I saw the all over Europe.
Never heard any neg comments on it.
Wellington has so much even when the wind isnt blowing there is still a lot of wind comming out of the behive.
Wh cant say we dont get much wind and it dosnt take much wind.:banana:

A small amount of wind as a prportion of the total supply is good. It can save either thermal or hydro energy, but only to a limited degree. Once the amount of wind generation exceeds the swing from the frequency keeping station plus Sustained Interuptable Reserve capacity, then wind will help to destabilise the system, requiring hydro to be run inefficiently, and hence waste stored water.

In New Zealand that amount of wind is around 450 MW in the North Island and 170 MW in the South Island.

[portokiwi]

Thanks for that...... I know Portugal France and spain all use N. Power as well as others.

[RantyDave]

It's been widely reported that even the smallest nuclear power station would produce epic amounts more power then NZ would even know what to do with.
By, like, the windmill lobby. You really think the engine in a nuclear submarine produces more power than an entire country consumes?

Dav

[Jantar]

By, like, the windmill lobby. You really think the engine in a nuclear submarine produces more power than an entire country consumes?

The small maritime nuke units are not economic for general power generation, and they don't need to worry as much abot cooling issues. At present, as has been discussed here many times already, there is no nuke turbine/generator unit small enough to be usefull in New Zealand.

It isn't so much that we are unable to use all the power produced, but that we are unable to use all the power produced, while maintaining spinning reserves, frequency keeping and voltage regulation, and at the same time be able to ramp other plant up and down to meet peak and trough demands.

[dipshit]

I still like the option of wind farms. I saw the all over Europe. Never heard any neg comments on it.

European countries network all of their grids together though, so they have a spread of time zones (hence peak demand times) and weather systems.

New Zealand is on a single time zone and is small enough to be affected by the same weather system over the whole country at the same time. The larger you make a windfarm, the more problematic it becomes.

[RantyDave]

There is no nuke turbine/generator unit small enough to be usefull in New Zealand.
So make one.

We give hundreds of millions of dollars a year to the CRI's - one of which apparently knows about geological and nuclear science. If spending a billion or so on broadband infrastructure is a good use of money, how about the government spinning out a company that's rather good at making small nuclear reactors. It's not like oil is going to get either cheaper or more plentiful.

I just find the whole anti-nuclear thing weird.

Dave

[Jantar]

...I just find the whole anti-nuclear thing weird.

I think you'll find thay it is so much anti nuke, and more that nuke just isn't suitable, yet. Westinghouse are currently developing a 360 MW nuke that is due for certification in 2010, all going well. France has been developing pebble bed reactors that would be suitable, but the earliest that they expect any commercial results is 2020 - 2040. If New Zealand was to begin its own research program right now, we may have something suitable in 2050 - 2070, or we may not.

So lets just wait and watch for Westinghouse or France to certify a suitable plant then open up the debate in NZ. Oh, and if we do get a nuke plant planned before I reach retirement age, my CV will be one of the first they receive.

[Deano]

Oh, and if we do get a nuke plant planned before I reach retirement age, my CV will be one of the first they receive.

Shall we just call you Homer ?:Pokey:

[Jantar]

Shall we just call you Homer ?:Pokey:
As long that is a definite homer and not a homo, that's fine. :shutup:

[KiwiRat]

Shall we just call you Homer ?:Pokey:

It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

If you look at the monitors in the Control Room shot, you will see two readings are in alarm (yellow). This is telling the guys that the Lube Oil supply temperature to this particular gas turbine is too high, and if they don't figure out which corrective course of action to take, and fast, that machine will trip, instantaneously removing 60 MW from the grid. Once the fault has been rectified, it's a 2 hour exercise to start the machine, synchronize it to the grid, and ramp in the boiler which is using the gas turbine exhaust as its heat source.

It's not donuts and Lazyboys all the time, you know.

[Trouser]

I like the sneaky robin small engine manual lying on the desk. Back up generator for home perhaps?

[KiwiRat]

I like the sneaky robin small engine manual lying on the desk. Back up generator for home perhaps?

Well spotted, but no. It's just the manual for a portable pump set that we have on site.

[Forest]

Now to "I thought you opened the intake gate up a bit, the water flow increases, the generator spins faster". The generator doesn't spin any faster at all. The speed of the generator is locked by the grid frequency, and once synchronised it doesn't matter whether the gates are only partially open or fully open, the speed wont change. A 40 pole generator will spin at 150 rpm irrespective of the amount of water going through it, or the power being produced.

I'd never really thought about it, but that does make a lot of sense.

(150/60) * (40/2) = 50Hz

[BadCompany]

It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

If you look at the monitors in the Control Room shot, you will see two readings are in alarm (yellow). This is telling the guys that the Lube Oil supply temperature to this particular gas turbine is too high, and if they don't figure out which corrective course of action to take, and fast, that machine will trip, instantaneously removing 60 MW from the grid. Once the fault has been rectified, it's a 2 hour exercise to start the machine, synchronize it to the grid, and ramp in the boiler which is using the gas turbine exhaust as its heat source.

It's not donuts and Lazyboys all the time, you know.

Is that power station out in south auckland somewhere? I'm pretty sure I've been up to the top of one of those stacks.

[marty]

When I was a boy I (and my parents) lived in a house with no electricity, no running water, no sewerage connection. We survived well enough. I magine that I still can if needs be. It will all be a storm in a teacup.

when I was a boy, we lived in gutter, got up before we went to bed, and licked road clean for breakfast.....

[Jantar]

Something that the media doesn't put across very well is that it isn't a crisis, and shouldn't become one. The situation is very tight, and there is absolutely nothing to spare. With all plant running to expectations we will get through, just keep your fingers crossed that there isn't a major breakdown.

We have already seen a minor breakdown with Otahuhu off line for 5 days and the lights stayed on. It may be a bit different if the same thing were to happen for 5 weeks though.

[marty]

friend of mine lives next to a substantial waterway - it has multiple generation projects on it already.

he has placed a waterwheel, that is suspended from above, onto the surface of the waterway. gearing it up to run a 24v truck alternator at artound 3000rpm, through a couple of old truck batteries, he now runs: all lights, beer fridge, heats the spa, multiple 24v sytems in the house - cell phone chargers etc etc.

his power bill dropped from $400/month, to less than $100.

total cost of system, less than $1000. energy taken from the waterway. neglible (not even measureable)

[KiwiRat]

Is that power station out in south auckland somewhere? I'm pretty sure I've been up to the top of one of those stacks.

Yeah mate. Penrose.

What were you doing there?

[BadCompany]

Yeah mate. Penrose.

What were you doing there?

Was some tour thing with ESITO. Did a taster course with them a few years ago. Went and checked out a few plants around the place, don't really remember them though :P

[Mikkel]

when I was a boy, we lived in gutter, got up before we went to bed, and licked road clean for breakfast.....

But when you tell the young kids today, they won't believe you!

[Bullitt]

One thing thats always confused me is the different capacity of different hydro plants. eg Benmore Avimore and Waitaki all flow exactly the same amount of water (more or less) but have vastly different outputs due to (presumably) the size of the station and when it was built.

Is it possible to knock down Waitaki dam and build a new one that puts out three times as much power while using the existing (albeit temporarily drained) lake and therefore not do any environmental damage?

[Mikkel]

One thing thats always confused me is the different capacity of different hydro plants. eg Benmore Avimore and Waitaki all flow exactly the same amount of water (more or less) but have vastly different outputs due to (presumably) the size of the station and when it was built.

Is it possible to knock down Waitaki dam and build a new one that puts out three times as much power while using the existing (albeit temporarily drained) lake and therefore not do any environmental damage?

It's the elevation change which is crucial. The bigger the difference the more energy you get out...

[Jantar]

One thing thats always confused me is the different capacity of different hydro plants. eg Benmore Avimore and Waitaki all flow exactly the same amount of water (more or less) but have vastly different outputs due to (presumably) the size of the station and when it was built.
Mikkel got it. The power produced (P) is a function of thre different values. The flow of water (Q), the height of the water in the dam (H), and the efficiency of the plant (e). Most hydro stations will have an efficiency of between 0.87 and 0.91, so there isn't a lot in it. There is also a constant that man can't change, ie Gravity (G).

P = GHQe

So on a river system like the Waitaki, the only real reason for the diffence in output is due to the height of the dams. This height is measured as the diffence between the water surface at the top of the dam minus the water surface at the downstream side of the dam minus any head loss in the penstocks. So if Waitaki was to be knocked down, and a new higher dam built, that would raise the downstream water level at Avimore, and hence decrease the available power at that site.

[Mikkel]

Mikkel got it. The power produced (P) is a function of thre different values. The flow of water (Q), the height of the water in the dam (H), and the efficiency of the plant (e). Most hydro stations will have an efficiency of between 0.87 and 0.91, so there isn't a lot in it. There is also a constant that man can't change, ie Gravity (G).

0.87-0.91 - sounds like a bloody high efficiency to me. I would have thought it to be quite a bit lower than that... (or do you mean 0.87%-0.91% which would seem very low on the other hand.)

But I guess, since there isn't any significant heat involved, that the efficiency could potentially be much much higher than for any thermal powerplant.

Aren't there also some energy loss due to friction in both penstock and tailrace? I would guess that this loss would be higher for higher velocities...

As for gravity - hypothetically you could chuck some superdense material at the end of the tailrace and that should increase your local gravitational pull :D

And yes, I am being silly...

[McDuck]

[QUOTE=Mikkel;1609010]Aren't there also some energy loss due to friction in both penstock and tailrace? I would guess that this loss would be higher for higher velocities...

[QUOTE]

There are special coatings on the inside of the penstokes and tailraces meaning that they dont have much.

[Jantar]

0.87-0.91 - sounds like a bloody high efficiency to me. I would have thought it to be quite a bit lower than that... (or do you mean 0.87%-0.91% which would seem very low on the other hand.)....

Hydrelectric plant is about the most efficient form of conversion that there is. Turbine efficiencies are often over 92%, and generator efficiencies are often around 96%. Transformer efficiency is close to 99% because hydro plant use excitation to control power factor, rather than transformer tapping.

That is why hydro engineers keep laughing when claims are made about E3P or Otahuhu B being the most efficient plant around.

[Edbear]

[QUOTE=Mikkel;1609010]Aren't there also some energy loss due to friction in both penstock and tailrace? I would guess that this loss would be higher for higher velocities...

[QUOTE]

There are special coatings on the inside of the penstokes and tailraces meaning that they dont have much.


Having worked in them, I was involved in "painting" the coatings inside them and it was a real experience to climb down the ladder and walk up the race to the gate, noting the trickle of water coming under the gate and contemplating the enormous pressure on it from the other side, and then walking all the way down to the turbine, clambering through the turbine, (HUGE!), and out into the station. Those pipes are between 15' - 20'ft in diameter if I remember correctly! Fascinating places!

[Mikkel]

There are special coatings on the inside of the penstokes and tailraces meaning that they dont have much.

Interesting - must be quite a task to keep those coatings in good condition at all times :yes:


Hydrelectric plant is about the most efficient form of conversion that there is. Turbine efficiencies are often over 92%, and generator efficiencies are often around 96%. Transformer efficiency is close to 99% because hydro plant use excitation to control power factor, rather than transformer tapping.

That is why hydro engineers keep laughing when claims are made about E3P or Otahuhu B being the most efficient plant around.

That's bloody impressive! I assume that the reason behind this is that you convert potential energy directly into kinetic energy and skip the thermal energy step... (Higher temperature -> higher entropy)


Having worked in them, I was involved in "painting" the coatings inside them and it was a real experience to climb down the ladder and walk up the race to the gate, noting the trickle of water coming under the gate and contemplating the enormous pressure on it from the other side, and then walking all the way down to the turbine, clambering through the turbine, (HUGE!), and out into the station. Those pipes are between 15' - 20'ft in diameter if I remember correctly! Fascinating places!

Nice :D

You just hope they haven't forgotten your walking around in there with your paintbrush :yes: Would be the mother of all waterslides though :2thumbsup

I definitely would like to visit and have a look around one of the larger hydro powerplants! :yes:

[Edbear]

...
You just hope they haven't forgotten your walking around in there with your paintbrush :yes: Would be the mother of all waterslides though :2thumbsup

I definitely would like to visit and have a look around one of the larger hydro powerplants! :yes:


Your imagination does tend to play up a bit at those times.... There's no quick way out of there! Plus I was fairly young then too.

[ManDownUnder]

I think I've got it... I unplugged my laptop... and it just kept on going!

Why didn't I think of that earlier. So obvious and think of the power saved :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

[Fooman]

That is why hydro engineers keep laughing when claims are made about E3P or Otahuhu B being the most efficient plant around.

Interesting point about gas turbines: overall simple, open cycle thermal efficiencies are between 30 to 40% conversion of chemical energy into mechanical energy (i.e. power at a shaft that can drive a generator or a fan or a pump). Now, the actual efficiency of the turbine end is quite high - around 90%+ conversion of thermal energy into mechanical energy. Where does the rest of it go? Into driving the compressor. A 45 MW LM6000 (like southdown or unit 6 at huntly) actually generates ~100 MW of mechanical energy, but 50 to 60 MW is needed to run the compressor section. And a lot of that is actually supplied by the first stages of turbine blading. Each 1st stage blade (worth about $20,000 US each), a hunk of nickel alloy about the size of two thumbs placed together, is pulling about 750 hp out of the gas stream at about 1100 C.

A colleague once described the working life of a turbine blade as holding a double decker bus while it is glowing red hot!

Cheers,
FM