Shocking workmanship

[Robert Taylor]

It has come to my attention that a number of Ohlins road and track front forks have recently been rebuilt in Auckland. The standard of ''workmanship'' was despicable for the following reasons;

1) The top caps were spun off using the 17mm preload adjusters instead of the annular pin holes in the outer bodies. That could result in the preload threads inside the cap jamming up..........but for the lack of the proper Ohlins tool or a good quality close fitting adjustable pin spanner TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE

2) It is clear that a water based degreaser was used to ''clean out'' the fork internals as when the oil was drained there was also a sizable quantity of water, that in turn has rusted the valving shims and check plate springs. The screw in cartridges would have remained in place and if any flushing is done you absolutely cannot get rid of all the flushing fluid without removing the cartridges. It is very clear that the cartridges were not removed as a special tool is required to remove them that is very specific to those forks. I have sold 3 of these tools around NZ over and above the one in my own workshop, to service agents that actually care about doing the job properly. AGAIN, TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

3) Low quality high drag seals were used that have failed in short order. It is also as well to point out that production forks with coatings such as titanium nitrate and dlc etc are sensitive over the long term to seal drag friction and material. These coatings are all microscopically thin and will have accelerated wear when combined with low quality seals. AGAIN, TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

It just isnt good enough to trust a shop at its word that they can do the job to an acceptable standard, do they have the tools, do they have the specific training for that product etc etc??.... CAVEAT EMPTOR

[Disco Dan]

So tell us.. how can the laymen person tell they are getting good forks?

[Robert Taylor]

So tell us.. how can the laymen person tell they are getting good forks?

By implication and my own experience very often they sadly are not. Its a hard question to answer, but there is also a very scary clue in that I was not requested by the said dealer ( and I know who it is ) were their tools and service information available? Frankly, this is take it to ''Fair Go'' material.

[Patch]

So tell us.. how can the laymen person tell they are getting good forks?
by buying from a reputable chap who specializes in their particular field - this does not just apply to forks or bikes.

There is no point asking an aircraft mechanic (who has trained to fix/repair/service a SkyHawk) to apply his trade to a Boeing - in fact, it could be very lethal without being re-trained (and that takes years)

You must ask yourself, if this shits itself - will I live??
If the service agent is not a specialist (in his given field), can you confidently answer that question??

If you are unsure about his background - ask him/her. Their answer or lack of answer (dodgy body behaviour) will speak volumes.

Is "cheap" worth the risk??

[SixPackBack]

Upon request and to help the young fella out [twosmoker], I manufactured a set of tools to allow the disassembly of his Ohlins forks. 'tis not a difficult task for a competent Toolmaker/Engineer. The tool set consisted of the following:

A cap removal device.
A spanner with extended jaws.
A long tube threaded internally.
If anybody needs to save a few dollars give me a yell, the plans are free.

[Robert Taylor]

Upon request and to help the young fella out [twosmoker], I manufactured a set of tools to allow the disassembly of his Ohlins forks. 'tis not a difficult task for a competent Toolmaker/Engineer. The tool set consisted of the following:

A cap removal device.
A spanner with extended jaws.
A long tube threaded internally.
If anybody needs to save a few dollars give me a yell, the plans are free.

But thats only half the equation is it not? How about brand specific training and familiarity with the particular idiosyncracies and precautions involved when servicing / repairing such a product? And I think given the example I cited above the job wouldnt have been done properly anyway, correct tools or not. A little bit of knowledge is often dangerous.

[boostin]

Just out of interest is it usually nessacery to flush/clean out a fork when just changing the oil.

I am talking about standard 93 ZXR400 forks. Thanks

[FilthyLuka]

Just out of interest is it usually nessacery to flush/clean out a fork when just changing the oil.

I am talking about standard 93 ZXR400 forks. Thanks

It couldn't hurt...


How about brand specific training and familiarity with the particular idiosyncracies and precautions involved when servicing / repairing such a product?

Only one way to find out really.

[jrandom]

But thats only half the equation is it not? How about brand specific training and familiarity with the particular idiosyncracies and precautions involved when servicing / repairing such a product? And I think given the example I cited above the job wouldnt have been done properly anyway, correct tools or not. A little bit of knowledge is often dangerous.

Ohlins products, in spite of your frequent assertions to the contrary, are not made from unobtanium.

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.

I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Name and shame, if you have the evidence to do so, or STFU. A simple statement that Workshop XYZ has shown themselves unfit to service Ohlins products would suffice.

[vifferman]

Just out of interest is it usually nessacery to flush/clean out a fork when just changing the oil.
There's usually a build-up of crud in the oil, and sediment etc. in the bottom of the forks. Any bits that have worn off the fork internals (sliders, seals, etc.) and any water or dirt that may have found its way in, will be in the old oil. If the fork oil hasn't been changed since 93, there may also be a nasty emulsion of oil, water, etc. in there. If you don't want it contaminating the new oil, of course you need to clean them out.
No doubt Dr Taylor will be along soon to tell you what's the best thing to use, but most bike bits are cleaned with kerosene: the old oil is soluble in it, and it doesn't usually do any harm to anything. Whatever you use, you will need several rinses, moving the fork sliders up and down to stir it all around. Make sure too that the forks are left to drain thoroughly, as you don't want the new oil diluted by kero.

[SixPackBack]

But thats only half the equation is it not? How about brand specific training and familiarity with the particular idiosyncracies and precautions involved when servicing / repairing such a product? And I think given the example I cited above the job wouldnt have been done properly anyway, correct tools or not. A little bit of knowledge is often dangerous.

Robert. Expecting all motorcyclists within N.Z to utilise the services of a pro like yourself with a corresponding wait time and expense is impractical.
Hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple devices, and while the nuances of set-up escapes most Kiwi's most are going to'give it a go'

[jrandom]

Hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple devices...

Burn him!<tencharacters>

[HenryDorsetCase]

What I dont get is if you have spent a small shedload of money on top quality bits of kit (Ohlins Superbike forks wannit? If you've got a spare set you're going to butcher, send them to me!) why wouldnt you pay the extra for the extra peace of mind knowing they've been serviced properly.

[edit: there is a secondhand (although new unused set of Ohlins forks on my watchlist on tardme, and the buy now on them is three grand: new they're about 6! even the shocks are 1600 (and good value at that IMO]

Just saying.

Our punter who had his forks worked over probably thought he was doing the right thing....

[avgas]

Bring back SHOWA and KONI!!!!!
Marzocci are lovely too.
Never had much luck with Ohlins for some reason.

[Tony.OK]

Our punter who had his forks worked over probably thought he was doing the right thing....

Thats the real issue.................most ppl are in general trusting and going to a workshop would be seen as doing the right thing.
Me............after a few bad experiences,I try and do everything myself now,firstly to know its done right and secondly because I'm tight,but some ppl aren't into that sort of thing either.
There are things I concede that need to be done by an expert,but theres also alot that once researched isn't as scary as ppl think.
I'd hope that Robert has been in contact with "said" workshop to offer advice for any future work,if only to ensure a safety standard exists in future.

[MIXONE]

Bring back SHOWA and KONI!!!!!
Marzocci are lovely too.
Never had much luck with Ohlins for some reason.

KONI is still out there.Now known as Ikon.I've got one and it's far superior to the factory standard.

[Mental Trousers]

Name and shame, if you have the evidence to do so, or STFU. A simple statement that Workshop XYZ has shown themselves unfit to service Ohlins products would suffice.

Far too many people are happy to smear a companies name on kb without checking if their expectations were realistic. More often than not it's a case of that person believing they were getting something they weren't (not saying there isn't shoddy workmanship etc out there, rather most of name and shames on kb weren't warranted)

This particular case is different though and it would be very unprofessional to name and shame. It's like shitting in your own yard. Roberts having a rant. Go with it.

[jrandom]

This particular case is different though and it would be very unprofessional to name and shame. It's like shitting in your own yard.

In that case, the honourable thing to do would be to rectify the issue via private communication with the workshop in question, rather than to post Chicken Little threads on public forums in an attempt to use the incident to drive business in one's own direction.

[Mental Trousers]

In that case, the honourable thing to do would be to rectify the issue via private communication with the workshop in question, rather than to post Chicken Little threads on public forums in an attempt to use the incident to drive business in one's own direction.
Indeed. Although one of the functions that kb serves is it's somewhere for members to have a good old rant. Whether it's about that bunch of lefty tree hugging hippies in government, arsing off on gravel, the phases of the moon or shoddy workmanship, it's all good.

Actually, seeing as this really is a rant it's going to Rant and Rave.

[mashman]

In that case, the honourable thing to do would be to rectify the issue via private communication with the workshop in question, rather than to post Chicken Little threads on public forums in an attempt to use the incident to drive business in one's own direction.

Heaven forbid that you'd use a forum dedicated to NZ bikers to publish a "public service announcement"... which is how i read what Robert had written. Instead of naming teh business, why not name the person responsible for the job as it's them that's at fault, not necessarily the business...

[The Stranger]

But thats only half the equation is it not? How about brand specific training and familiarity with the particular idiosyncracies and precautions involved when servicing / repairing such a product? And I think given the example I cited above the job wouldnt have been done properly anyway, correct tools or not. A little bit of knowledge is often dangerous.

I am NOT speaking for Two Smoker, however, I would just like to point out, that yes mr Sixpack did supply those tools, and they have been very handy and greatly appreciated, and well made too may I add.
That said, and as I am sure Robert well knows, we don't strip and/or rebuild the Ohlins suspension.

[SixPackBack]

I am NOT speaking for Two Smoker, however, I would just like to point out, that yes mr Sixpack did supply those tools, and they have been very handy and greatly appreciated, and well made too may I add.
That said, and as I am sure Robert well knows, we don't strip and/or rebuild the Ohlins suspension.

I am the sexiest Toolmaker I know....*or my cocks a cactus*

[HenryDorsetCase]

Indeed. Although one of the functions that kb serves is it's somewhere for members to have a good old rant. Whether it's about that bunch of lefty tree hugging hippies in government, arsing off on gravel, the phases of the moon or shoddy workmanship, it's all good.

Actually, seeing as this really is a rant it's going to Rant and Rave.

Lemmetellya, that bloody Moon has been really pissing me off lately, what with the waxing and the waning. Bloody typical.

[Hitcher]

I am the sexiest Toolmaker I know....*or my cocks a cactus*

So that's YOU in that photo...

[The Stranger]

I am the sexiest Toolmaker I know....*or my cocks a cactus*

Well I guess your cocks a cactus aye.

[White trash]

I am NOT speaking for Two Smoker, however, I would just like to point out, that yes mr Sixpack did supply those tools, and they have been very handy and greatly appreciated, and well made too may I add.
That said, and as I am sure Robert well knows, we don't strip and/or rebuild the Ohlins suspension.
I think for their intended use, changing fork springs trackside, siringeing oil in and out for minor adjustments, they're exceptional also.

It saves bothering a very busy Mr Taylor on race days for menial jobs such as those outlined.

In saying that, there's a (small) handfull of people I'd trust to work on my suspension for anything more. Easier and better piece of mind just to get the guy who built it to service it.

[enigma51]

Love the tag on this thread

extortion, girl fight, ol cactus cock, scare tactics

[avgas]

KONI is still out there.Now known as Ikon.I've got one and it's far superior to the factory standard.
Yeah i know.......but its just not the same feel about it. A rose by any other name....blah blah blah....
Do KYB make motorbike shocks? i heard a rumor but i don't know it was true or not

[Pussy]

Do KYB make motorbike shocks?

Does Rose Kennedy have any black dresses?

[bully]

these days its easyer to say who does a good job, no matter what the trade or service, most do a crap job, nobody cares anymore.

[avgas]

CAVEAT EMPTOR
There you go boys and girls - you have it in a nut shell. Don't trust anyone who sells or services Ohlins shocks...........:lol:

[White trash]

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.


Every manufacturer does just that though mate, it's to ensure follow up business. Suzuki, Triumph, Harley, all the same. And that's just to name the manufacturers I've dealt with. Can't blame Ohlins for that.


I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

Agreed, it's nuts and bolts. But you'd rather your Lamborghini serviced by the chap trained at the factory rather than the blokes at Mag and Turbo who obviously know their performance car shit. Surely?


If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

I don't understand this bit sorry. What the hell you tryin to say? :D As with anything, you like something, you get told a price, you buy it or you don't. How's that opaque?



Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Yeah but if you "name and shame" on here, you're then bombarded with people wanting to know why the hell you didn't take the issue up with those concerned. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

[HenryDorsetCase]

You're all missing the point: what about the bastard Moon, eh?

[Drew]

Ohlins products, in spite of your frequent assertions to the contrary, are not made from unobtanium.

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.

I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Name and shame, if you have the evidence to do so, or STFU. A simple statement that Workshop XYZ has shown themselves unfit to service Ohlins products would suffice.Often you make informed and funny replies, here you've just made a cock of yourself.

If it were so easy to work on suspension for mechanics, (who have mostly ALL been inside forks for one reason or another), why do they not do it more readily?

It aint hard to pull a fork apart, but doing it properly to change fluid and seals without making the mistakes RT outlines is key to the continued good performance of them.


Burn him!<tencharacters>
Resorting to smart arse sarcastic digs to try getting others on your band wagon is pretty sad man. And I'm pretty sure, Robert is well busy enough at the moment without druming up business this way.

To sum up, ignore list it is for your pompus arse, at the very least it'll halve the number of new posts whenever I log in.
</tencharacters>

[cowpoos]

Often you make informed and funny replies, here you've just made a cock of yourself.

If it were so easy to work on suspension for mechanics, (who have mostly ALL been inside forks for one reason or another), why do they not do it more readily?

It aint hard to pull a fork apart, but doing it properly to change fluid and seals without making the mistakes RT outlines is key to the continued good performance of them.


Resorting to smart arse sarcastic digs to try getting others on your band wagon is pretty sad man. And I'm pretty sure, Robert is well busy enough at the moment without druming up business this way.

To sum up, ignore list it is for your pompus arse, at the very least it'll halve the number of new posts whenever I log in.
</tencharacters>
there is sooo much ironiy and hipocrisy in that post I just fell off the couch laughing...and may have shat a lil in the process!!! bwahahahahahaha!!

[Number One]

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

I don't understand terribly much of the 'technicalities' of this thread but I did get to see Bombastic used in a sentance!

So I am happy :laugh: terribly Shaggy-like of you Mr random :shutup: are you Semi fantastic too?

[Robert Taylor]

Just out of interest is it usually nessacery to flush/clean out a fork when just changing the oil.

I am talking about standard 93 ZXR400 forks. Thanks

Absolutely and if they are 93 vintage dont forget theres 15 years of use and wear

[McJim]

I'm so pleased to be blissfully free from the world of performance forks. In fact my entire bike is worth less than an Ohlins front end.:rofl:

[Robert Taylor]

There's usually a build-up of crud in the oil, and sediment etc. in the bottom of the forks. Any bits that have worn off the fork internals (sliders, seals, etc.) and any water or dirt that may have found its way in, will be in the old oil. If the fork oil hasn't been changed since 93, there may also be a nasty emulsion of oil, water, etc. in there. If you don't want it contaminating the new oil, of course you need to clean them out.
No doubt Dr Taylor will be along soon to tell you what's the best thing to use, but most bike bits are cleaned with kerosene: the old oil is soluble in it, and it doesn't usually do any harm to anything. Whatever you use, you will need several rinses, moving the fork sliders up and down to stir it all around. Make sure too that the forks are left to drain thoroughly, as you don't want the new oil diluted by kero.

Yes we use kerosine as a first degrease followed by a very good proprietory contact cleaner that completely evaporates with no residue. Kerosine will still leave an oily film that can adversely react with the fork oil and degrade its performance.

[Robert Taylor]

Ohlins products, in spite of your frequent assertions to the contrary, are not made from unobtanium.

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.

I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Name and shame, if you have the evidence to do so, or STFU. A simple statement that Workshop XYZ has shown themselves unfit to service Ohlins products would suffice.

I have NEVER made any assertion that Ohlins products are made of anything of the sort

Ohlins are not alone in making tools specific to their product, unless I came down in the last shower this is common in all fields of transport and engineering. Try pulling a set of ( for example ) GSXR1000 cartridges apart without some special tools and not make a meal of them ETC!!!!!!

Frankly I agree with tight control if it serves no purpose than to protect many from their own foolhardy ignorance. ''Bombastic'' if you like, but cold hard reality.

Shortly there is going to be a general price increase of 5% to Ohlins distributors worldwide, nothing opaque in that, it largely reflects the cost of many raw materials skyrocketing, and we all know the reasons for that are less than opaque. Notably also, Ohlins suppliers are not employing labourers at a pittance in battery hen like conditions as occurs in mainland Asia.

Publicly naming the dealer on a public forum, NO ( do you think Im stupid ) Leverage? No, just would like to think that the product I am responsible for in NZ is being serviced and repaired properly. And what in the hell is wrong with that?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????

[Robert Taylor]

Robert. Expecting all motorcyclists within N.Z to utilise the services of a pro like yourself with a corresponding wait time and expense is impractical.
Hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple devices, and while the nuances of set-up escapes most Kiwi's most are going to'give it a go'

We have a number of service agents, no-one bothered to ask...............And in fact if the said dealer had bothered to contact me and was receptive to doing the job PROPERLY I would have run through the precautions involved, e-mailed them a copy of the workshop manual and loaned the appropriate tools for only the cost of courier recovery fees.
The fact that the dealer gave it a half hearted go, fitted low quality seals that failed in short order and damaged key components is unacceptable.
I beg to differ that ALL hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple, the more you get involved with damping technology the more complex they become. Im talking here about top end suspension, not bargain basement mainland Asia ''chatter sticks''
We see stuff ups almost everyday because of the ''kiwi can do it mentality''

[Mikkel]

Ohlins are not alone in making tools specific to their product, unless I came down in the last shower this is common in all fields of transport and engineering. Try pulling a set of ( for example ) GSXR1000 cartridges apart without some special tools and not make a meal of them ETC!!!!!!

I can attest to that. I vividly remember the nightmare it was to take the 20 year old stock standard zxr250 forks apart to change oil and seals. Didn't flush them or take them totally apart - just enough to get the job done. Without the special tools for the job it was bloody difficult to do properly - lot of swearing and cursing. In retrospect I reckon that not fucking them up too badly was mainly due to equal portions of patience, thorough reading of the service manual and blind luck. Oh yeah, it took the two of us the better part of 10 hours to go through them... :weep:

No way I'm going to try my luck with the mean greenie's suspension! :no:

[Crasherfromwayback]

there is sooo much ironiy and hipocrisy in that post I just fell off the couch laughing...and may have shat a lil in the process!!! bwahahahahahaha!!

Oi...I think Drew may have a crush on Robert!

[SixPackBack]

We have a number of service agents, no-one bothered to ask...............And in fact if the said dealer had bothered to contact me and was receptive to doing the job PROPERLY I would have run through the precautions involved, e-mailed them a copy of the workshop manual and loaned the appropriate tools for only the cost of courier recovery fees.
The fact that the dealer gave it a half hearted go, fitted low quality seals that failed in short order and damaged key components is unacceptable.
I beg to differ that ALL hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple, the more you get involved with damping technology the more complex they become. Im talking here about top end suspension, not bargain basement mainland Asia ''chatter sticks''
We see stuff ups almost everyday because of the ''kiwi can do it mentality''

Are you willing to provide tools, workshop manuals and back-up for every Kiwi attempting DIY?...if not you offer rings a little hollow Robert. It would also seem that in being kind enough to offer this service many sets of tools, manuals etc would be needed-you would in effect become a philanthropist helping the poor and needy!
The core of the issue is money, we the motorcycling public cannot afford nor justify 10-30% of the motorcycles cost on shocks and requisite servicing, justifiably we have no choice but to seek other methods, as a business man I am sure you can appreciate this.
As for the complexity issue-a shock is a container containing oil and not much more. 'Fluid loss through an orifice' and 'pressure created as a resistance to flow' pretty much cover the technical side, couple that with attention to detail and your done.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Are you willing to provide tools, workshop manuals and back-up for every Kiwi attempting DIY?...if not you offer rings a little hollow Robert. It would also seem that in being kind enough to offer this service many sets of tools, manuals etc would be needed-you would in effect become a philanthropist helping the poor and needy!
The core of the issue is money, we the motorcycling public cannot afford nor justify 10-30% of the motorcycles cost on shocks and requisite servicing, justifiably we have no choice but to seek other methods, as a business man I am sure you can appreciate this.
As for the complexity issue-a shock is a container containing oil and not much more. 'Fluid loss through an orifice' and 'pressure created as a resistance to flow' pretty much cover the technical side, couple that with attention to detail and your done.

Oh dude. to use your analogy, a saturn five rocket motor is just two bags one containing oxygen, one hydrogen, give it a squeeze and light the blue touch paper and stand clear. The devil is in the detail and thats where the difference is.

Its kind of surprising to me that people DONT spend ten to thirty percent of the cost of a bike on the bits that will without question make the vehicle more pleasurable and safer to ride. People focus too much on the "motor" in motorcycle I guess.

Just apropos of this point, in PB magazine over the past few months they've run a feature on making a bike (2004 or 6 GSXR600) go as well on a track. If you read the articles, the single biggest improvements came with the suspension rebuilds (from memory Maxton rear and a rebuild with (again IIRC)
K Tech cartridges. the other thing was that in both front and rear they had two go-rounds to get it right.

Focus on the hardware side (why does widget X cost so much) ignores all of the value added stuff you get as well which is real, plus the "bling factor" which is in (my) head.

[Ixion]

Such controversy !

I always knew that no good would come of abandoning the good old girder.

The excellent products of Messrs Webb and Brampton never generated such vituperation.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Indeed. I've been fondling my Ohlins shock (far to pretty to sully by bolting to a dirty motorbike) and drinking an impertinent little Valpolicello.

[Robert Taylor]

Are you willing to provide tools, workshop manuals and back-up for every Kiwi attempting DIY?...if not you offer rings a little hollow Robert. It would also seem that in being kind enough to offer this service many sets of tools, manuals etc would be needed-you would in effect become a philanthropist helping the poor and needy!
The core of the issue is money, we the motorcycling public cannot afford nor justify 10-30% of the motorcycles cost on shocks and requisite servicing, justifiably we have no choice but to seek other methods, as a business man I am sure you can appreciate this.
As for the complexity issue-a shock is a container containing oil and not much more. 'Fluid loss through an orifice' and 'pressure created as a resistance to flow' pretty much cover the technical side, couple that with attention to detail and your done.

I think you need to read the second sentence, we would quite correctly make a judgement call and NO that is not playing God, its being vigilant to the job being done properly. Nothing wrong in that, I was bought up to do things properly.
Yes I am well aware of cost and that is why in our business we have several levels of cost to suit a lot of varying pockets. Actually anyone who knows me will testify that I am actually very helpful and mindful / up front about costs.
''Other methods'' become unacceptable when the job is butchered and we see that so often, also units on the road that present danger to the user and others in the ''firing line''
It surprises me that you ''paint'' shock absorbers as being so simple, have you actually seen inside say an Ohlins TT44 or inside a set of their gas charged Superbike forks? Try downloading a TTX40 manual and the valving reference programme at some stage the see if you are prepared to repeat your parting statement?

[Robert Taylor]

Such controversy !

I always knew that no good would come of abandoning the good old girder.

The excellent products of Messrs Webb and Brampton never generated such vituperation.

YES, its amazing that when you dare to mention the need for quality control you have people almost condoning much of the shoddy work that is happening out there. Have our standards and mindsets really deterorated that much? Should Helen Clark be shouldering a lot of the blame for this?

[SixPackBack]

YES, its amazing that when you dare to mention the need for quality control you have people almost condoning much of the shoddy work that is happening out there. Have our standards and mindsets really deterorated that much? Should Helen Clark be shouldering a lot of the blame for this?


Your original post complains about:

The need for proper tooling-good we get that, tooling can be manufactured for the most part.
The correct use of flushing medium and the need to fully disassemble-cool, we now know to take the shocks apart flush with kerosene and finally a suitable light hydrocarbon.
Cheap seals are sub-optimal-we understand buying top quality seals will optimise the fork rebuild giving lower friction and lower life.
Now we all accept you are the top Ohlins man in N.Z, hell perhaps the known universe, but lets get some perspective you and your agency are not the only person/group capable of stripping and rebuilding a device that has been around for probably at least 60 years. However much you mystify the humble shock it remains a container full of oil, a handful of parts and not much more! once stripped and rebuilt a couple of times the mystery disappears. It 'aint brain surgery.


And dude seriously 'Helen Clark'??

[Morcs]

Every manufacturer does just that though mate, it's to ensure follow up business. Suzuki, Triumph, Harley, all the same. And that's just to name the manufacturers I've dealt with. Can't blame Ohlins for that.



Agreed, it's nuts and bolts. But you'd rather your Lamborghini serviced by the chap trained at the factory rather than the blokes at Mag and Turbo who obviously know their performance car shit. Surely?



I don't understand this bit sorry. What the hell you tryin to say? :D As with anything, you like something, you get told a price, you buy it or you don't. How's that opaque?



Yeah but if you "name and shame" on here, you're then bombarded with people wanting to know why the hell you didn't take the issue up with those concerned. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

Fair enough.


Often you make informed and funny replies, here you've just made a cock of yourself.

If it were so easy to work on suspension for mechanics, (who have mostly ALL been inside forks for one reason or another), why do they not do it more readily?

It aint hard to pull a fork apart, but doing it properly to change fluid and seals without making the mistakes RT outlines is key to the continued good performance of them.


Resorting to smart arse sarcastic digs to try getting others on your band wagon is pretty sad man. And I'm pretty sure, Robert is well busy enough at the moment without druming up business this way.

To sum up, ignore list it is for your pompus arse, at the very least it'll halve the number of new posts whenever I log in.


:baby:

Stop brown nosing to mr Taylor. there seems too much of it on KB.

Mr Random has very well put a great post together. I 100% agree with him. If my bike doesnt have Ohlins, it isnt shit.
Half the people who spend $$$ on ohlins will get outridden by ya average joe on a 5k bike anyway.

[White trash]

Often you make informed and funny replies, here you've just made a cock of yourself.

If it were so easy to work on suspension for mechanics, (who have mostly ALL been inside forks for one reason or another), why do they not do it more readily?

It aint hard to pull a fork apart, but doing it properly to change fluid and seals without making the mistakes RT outlines is key to the continued good performance of them.


Resorting to smart arse sarcastic digs to try getting others on your band wagon is pretty sad man. And I'm pretty sure, Robert is well busy enough at the moment without druming up business this way.

To sum up, ignore list it is for your pompus arse, at the very least it'll halve the number of new posts whenever I log in.
</tencharacters>
Possibly a little short sighted there mate.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion sonny, the art of debating your side opf an argument is present yourself clearly and concisely, not simply call your opponent a wanker :lol:

[imdying]

It surprises me that you ''paint'' shock absorbers as being so simple, have you actually seen inside say an Ohlins TT44 or inside a set of their gas charged Superbike forks? Try downloading a TTX40 manual and the valving reference programme at some stage the see if you are prepared to repeat your parting statement?

I tend to agree. A large number of Kiwi males have rebuilt trailer brake master cylinders. And why not? 3 moving parts, 2 rubber seals, and that's it. But give them a Honda Accord ABS modulator unit and they'll be blubbing into their beer in record time. It seems likely that their is a similar relationship in automotive shock absorber units... I'd tackle my FXR150 forks without too many second thoughts, but I'm not so sure I'd want to take my Ohlins R&T forks to pieces. It's not that I couldn't get them to bits or back together, if they're anything like the Marzocchi RAC50s etc that I've looked at, then there's pretty comprehensive servicing manuals available off the net, but the manuals don't go into many of the techniques and intricacies surrounding such a task.

[White trash]

Half the people who spend $$$ on ohlins will get outridden by ya average joe on a 5k bike anyway.

That a challenge? :D

[Deano]

Half the people who spend $$$ on ohlins will get outridden by ya average joe on a 5k bike anyway.

Do you have any evidence of this ?

[White trash]

Actually anyone who knows me will testify that I am actually very helpful and mindful / up front about costs.

I'll attest to that. Read the very first WBP Racing race reporthere (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=54076), Robert closed his very hectic business to spend two full days helping set up our new bike. I don't remember seeing an invoice for that.

In all our upgrades, services or even the purchase of our Ohlins components, not once have we looked at an invoice and said "Shit! That's expensive".

[DEATH_INC.]

That a challenge? :D
Swap ya engines and yer on....

[DEATH_INC.]

Do you have any evidence of this ?

:shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup::shutup:

[DEATH_INC.]

Hmmmm,
I get where RT is coming from, there are some dodgy workshops out there that shouldn't be let near anything, let alone expensive, quality products. I don't doubt for a second that he's right in this case.
BUT I also believe that there are plenty of other people out there more than capable of servicing a set of forks properly. It is all relevant, forks and shocks ARE simple devices, but only if you know what you're looking at. Rebuilding them is simply a matter of using the CORRECT parts and tools and CARE.
RT's expertise is in setting them up of course, this is not being questioned.
I also believe that RT has the right as a distributor to defend and protect his product, you don't have to read his posts......

[Mikkel]

The core of the issue is money, we the motorcycling public cannot afford nor justify 10-30% of the motorcycles cost on shocks and requisite servicing, justifiably we have no choice but to seek other methods, as a business man I am sure you can appreciate this.

Indeed, but could we not agree that if you fork out a significant amount of dollars to get some Ohlins for your bike - then perhaps paying for good servicing by people in the know is just protecting your investment. I don't think you'll see too many people running their custom paintjobs through a Shell car wash TBH.


As for the complexity issue-a shock is a container containing oil and not much more. 'Fluid loss through an orifice' and 'pressure created as a resistance to flow' pretty much cover the technical side, couple that with attention to detail and your done.

If you want to view and treat your suspension with such rough simplicity I am sure that will be reflected in how they work out for you when you are on the road.

Sure enough there are some shocks out there which are incredibly basic without fancy bits and adjustments - and I'm sure you need to put your mind to it in order to screw them up...
But it's no different from saying 'a tyre is just a piece of rubber'. True, but if that's your attitude you won't win any races and chances are next time the road in front of you plays up you'll be sliding along your bike and wondering what just happened.


Oh dude. to use your analogy, a saturn five rocket motor is just two bags one containing oxygen, one hydrogen, give it a squeeze and light the blue touch paper and stand clear. The devil is in the detail and thats where the difference is.

That is an awesome simile! :niceone:


Its kind of surprising to me that people DONT spend ten to thirty percent of the cost of a bike on the bits that will without question make the vehicle more pleasurable and safer to ride. People focus too much on the "motor" in motorcycle I guess.

I wonder what the cycle in motorcycle is then? The 'rider on/off' cycle or the 'on/off the road' cycle...

[jrandom]

Every manufacturer does just that though mate, it's to ensure follow up business. Suzuki, Triumph, Harley, all the same. And that's just to name the manufacturers I've dealt with. Can't blame Ohlins for that.

Oh, it's not a blame thing. Ohlins make great products, they're a fine company, and I'd buy their suspenders myself if I needed to win races.

I'm just pointing out that the fact that they design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly does not imply that you need special black-magic knowledge to use those tools.

Certainly it's always possible to cock up servicing of any mechanical component - what I'm responding to, here, is RT's frequent apparent insistence that his company, and only his company, can be trusted not to do so when it comes to suspenders.


Agreed, it's nuts and bolts. But you'd rather your Lamborghini serviced by the chap trained at the factory...

Of course. But if the bloke at the factory kept banging on in public about how the blokes who work at Mag & Turbo don't have a clue what they're doing, I might start getting annoyed with him for being unnecessarily pompous, and look for ways to take my business elsewhere simply because I didn't like his attitude.


I don't understand this bit sorry. What the hell you tryin to say? :D As with anything, you like something, you get told a price, you buy it or you don't. How's that opaque?

I can get a printed catalogue from Yoshimura with prices for everything they make. If I want to know what a part costs in the USA, I can pretty much just convert the NZD price to USD.

Good luck getting the same from Ohlins. Your only option there is to go, cap in hand, to your local dealer, and take on the chin whatever price he's deciding to charge based on his sales volume and support costs.

Of course, they have a perfect right to conduct their business that way if they so choose. Doesn't mean I have to like it, though.


Yeah but if you "name and shame" on here, you're then bombarded with people...

As I stated earlier, I think the best thing to do in this case would have been to take up the issues with the workshop in question. If one really wanted to be a knight in shining armour, one could look to get some form of compensation for the customers who had to deal with the impact of the shoddy workmanship.

But quietly getting on with sorting that out wouldn't act as an advertisement to thousands of potential customers, would it?

Put it this way - I'm sure RT's a stand-up guy, and he obviously does many great things for his racing and roadriding customers. But I, personally, find his approach to marketing on KB slightly odious.

PS - Since your bro's now got me on his ignore list, would you mention to him when convenient that I'm very, very sorry for being a cock, and that I will present him, by way of apology, with a giant Ohlins-branded teddybear that he can cuddle to sleep every night?

[imdying]

I will present him, by way of apology, with a giant Ohlins-branded teddybear that he can cuddle to sleep every night?Wait, you can get those?!?!?! I'll take one :yes: Robert, if you're reading this, send me the bill immediately!

[White trash]

PS - Since your bro's now got me on his ignore list, would you mention to him when convenient that I'm very, very sorry for being a cock, and that I will present him, by way of apology, with a giant Ohlins-branded teddybear that he can cuddle to sleep every night?

No need mate, I'll just quote and he'll see :D

[Morcs]

That a challenge? :D


Do you have any evidence of this ?

Well you guys are in the other half...

[boomer]

I've had enough of your self righteous posts JRandom, in all honesty. Im puttin you on ignore and maybe you should take some time away from the interweb, specifically KB and go do something else.


And Morcs, i've got Ohlins.. wanna see if you can beat me on your TL?

[mashman]

I can see where JRandom is coming from to a certain degree, but it's all in the translation of how you read the articles on KB. I've never read Robert self promote, advertise or in any way tell people on KB that they should go with him... but that's my translation.

JRandom, would you be happier if Robert imparted his invaluable information to the forum in the Shop Sales, Info & Discounts section? Would that make a difference?

[boomer]

I can see where JRandom is coming from to a certain degree, but it's all in the translation of how you read the articles on KB. I've never read Robert self promote, advertise or in any way tell people on KB that they should go with him... but that's my translation.

JRandom, would you be happier if Robert imparted his invaluable information to the forum in the Shop Sales, Info & Discounts section? Would that make a difference?

who gives a flying fook what Jrandom wants.... believe it or not, this aint HIS web site :wacko:

[jrandom]

JRandom, would you be happier if Robert imparted his invaluable information to the forum in the Shop Sales, Info & Discounts section? Would that make a difference?

Absolutely. Self-promotion's a necessary part of running a business, and that's what the Shop Sales section is there for.

It's:

A. the mixing of self-promotion with technical advice in a technical forum; and

B. self-promotion via put-downs of one's competitors, without hard evidence to back it up,

that I take issue with.

F'rinstance, if Ray Clee turned up around these parts and wrote at length about engine tuning, that'd be awesome, but if he carried on to make endless insinuations about his competitors being crap and anyone not using his services being somehow in support of a socialist reversion to the Stone Age, I'd go off him pretty damn fast.

Now, it's a shame that some folk I would really prefer not to offend have decided that the opinions I've expressed on this are worthy cause for putting me on their ignore lists, but then again, a number of other folk seem to be in strong support of the points I make, so... *shrug*

[Morcs]

I've had enough of your self righteous posts JRandom, in all honesty. Im puttin you on ignore and maybe you should take some time away from the interweb, specifically KB and go do something else.


And Morcs, i've got Ohlins.. wanna see if you can beat me on your TL?

Nah Id use the DRZ ;)

I was never referring to me as the average joe on a 5k bike... I have a will to live nowadays.

Squidding is where its at :2thumbsup


And edit: I think Jrandom is a great guy, and has valid points in this thread, just like most of you think Robert taylor is a great guy who also has valid points -
now the question is, cos I agree with 'random, Does that mean I should call you all cunts and put you on ignore?

Answer: No. Because Im not trying to stick my nose in Mr Randoms arse.

[boomer]

Nah Id use the DRZ ;)

I was never referring to me as the average joe on a 5k bike... I have a will to live nowadays.

Squidding is where its at :2thumbsup


And edit: I think Jrandom is a great guy, and has valid points in this thread, just like most of you think Robert taylor is a great guy who also has valid points -
now the question is, cos I agree with 'random, Does that mean I should call you all cunts and put you on ignore?

Answer: No. Because Im not trying to stick my nose in Mr Randoms arse.

you'd beat me on the SM too :P

I'm not standing up for Robert Taylor.. he's big, old and ugly enough to do that himself. I'm sick of opening KB and reading what JRandom thinks about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

[Morcs]

you'd beat me on the SM too :P

I'm not standing up for Robert Taylor.. he's big, old and ugly enough to do that himself. I'm sick of opening KB and reading what JRandom thinks about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

The edit part of my post wasnt aimed at you. It was aimed at the rest of the thread :)

[mashman]

Absolutely. Self-promotion's a necessary part of running a business, and that's what the Shop Sales section is there for.

It's:

A. the mixing of self-promotion with technical advice in a technical forum; and

B. self-promotion via put-downs of one's competitors, without hard evidence to back it up,

that I take issue with.

Now that's where i disagree with you. the thread was started with a description of some appauling work that had been done, so there was evidence presented.

Where I can't disagree is with the self-promotion side of things. All i can say is that that's not how I read Roberts posts. I see them as pieces of information and again that could mean that i'm ignoring the self-promotion (which I think I would have picked up but likely ignored anyway), or JRandom has picked up on self-promotion where there isn't any, yet he sees it. It's a lose lose situation, the Internerd is exceptional for encouraging people to misread things...

Some people will be offended by JRandoms style of conveying his emotions, he's likely an emotive guy, we all are on certain issues, but at the end of the day the language boils down to a simple emotion, he's unhappy with what he's read and offends some people with how he's written his responses. In which case I can only encourage people to not be offended by the language and focus on the emotion... obviously i have taught my gran to suck eggs before and hold out every hope that we can once again unite and agree to disagree.

[nodrog]

.....lets all have a big cuddle...

:hug::love::grouphug:

[Katman]

Now, it's a shame that some folk I would really prefer not to offend have decided that the opinions I've expressed on this are worthy cause for putting me on their ignore lists, but then again, a number of other folk seem to be in strong support of the points I make, so... *shrug*

I know exactly how you feel. :msn-wink:

[avgas]

Ok, everybody count to 10.
Good?
Get the fuck back to work!

[homer]

Robert. Expecting all motorcyclists within N.Z to utilise the services of a pro like yourself with a corresponding wait time and expense is impractical.
Hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple devices, and while the nuances of set-up escapes most Kiwi's most are going to'give it a go'

yep i agree
soon well all have bloody bikes and no where to take them to get fixed or serviced , this will be due to the fact that no one knows what there doing .
or
Itll be great the first few times till the one doing the work leaves and you didnt know this .
then you end up with someone who dosnt know what there doing on a specific item of the bike .

So what ill just think will be! stuff the ohlins
shag all the other expensive crap , and just stick to the factory products .
no problems .

Just my 2 cents

[nodrog]

it would be quite helpful to know who the authorised service people are.

[Robert Taylor]

I repeat that the reason for my post was to highlight the shoddy workmanship that is going on. Undeniable, indefensible and of course it happens across a much broader range of product than Ohlins.
Having spoken my mind re this I guess it was inevitable that I would be maligned by some for daring to have high standards, well thats how it feels to me anyway! And its interesting to note how some tried to dilute the fact that there actually is quite a lot of complication with high end suspension units. Its actually about a good deal more than just looking at the ''nuts and bolts'' assembly. I think a tendency for many to ( in their own minds ) oversimplify the task is where people often run into trouble. Add to that that many so called service people misrepresent their abilities and I think also that such work requires a very keen eye for detail. I say unapologetically that there are many who lack same... And how many repair bills have a much higher labour hours content than they should have because the mechanic struggled away disassembling and reassembling when the correct special tools would have saved a LOT of time. And also not being privy to service updates, specific precautions etc.
People know where to get hold of me and people that have dealt directly with me know that in fact I most often have a tendency to be very helpful.
Our own turnround time for service / repair is improving enormously with the hiring of excellent staff and more organisation. But we do have a number of people around the country who we entrust to do service work and this will become more formalised later this year with suspension schools for our nominated techs, run by a visiting Swedish engineer.
All it takes is a simple phone call / e-mail so I can then determine the complexity of the job and direct to an entrusted technician within easiest access.

[Sanx]

Oh dude. to use your analogy, a saturn five rocket motor is just two bags one containing oxygen, one hydrogen, give it a squeeze and light the blue touch paper and stand clear. The devil is in the detail and thats where the difference is.

Thanks for the blueprint! I aim to have my first commercial satellite launch later this year. Of course, I'll be using Honda parts for the rocket - Suzuki's parts were cheaper and faster, but wouldn't last beyond the first separation.


Have our standards and mindsets really deterorated that much? Should Helen Clark be shouldering a lot of the blame for this?

That's probably one thing she isn't personally responsible for...


That a challenge? :D

I've got a CBR250 if you want to waste Morcs in a really embarrassing manner.


I can get a printed catalogue from Yoshimura with prices for everything they make. If I want to know what a part costs in the USA, I can pretty much just convert the NZD price to USD.

Good luck getting the same from Ohlins. Your only option there is to go, cap in hand, to your local dealer, and take on the chin whatever price he's deciding to charge based on his sales volume and support costs.


Given that all Yoshi stuff is imported into Australasia via Mat Mladin imports, who proceed to rip everyone off, you cannot simply translate NZD into USD to get the price of the appropriate part in the USA. Ohlins have a policy that dealers can only advertise MRRPs, which is fair enough, given that they (rightly) class their products as premium items. It might make life slightly harder for the average Joe to go online and find out which dealer can give them a better offer, but as RT has outlined a number of times, simply buying an Ohlins shock does not result in better performance. You need the right spring and valving for your weight, and some knowledge of local conditions and what you plan on doing with the bike can be advantageous too.

To take your Yoshimura example, very few bits of their kit are anything other than simple bolt-on items. The bits that aren't simply bolt-on - cams, engine-management devices, etc - are subject to sale only through authorised agents, because of the potential for that item to cause damage to the host machine.


And Morcs, i've got Ohlins.. wanna see if you can beat me on your TL?

I beat your blinged-up Ray Clee-tuned, Ohlins-suspended, Brembo-disked 1000 on a stock 750 ... (and no, I'm never going to forget it!)

[ArcherWC]

Half the people who spend $$$ on ohlins will get outridden by ya average joe on a 5k bike anyway.


Ive got Ohlins Pete, wanna race :wari: