Clearly we are all filthy anti-semites

[Flatcap]

So the Israeli Embassy thinks we are "repugnant and negative"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4582227a10.html


Who the hell does Dor Shapira think he is, telling us how we should act, and is he not stereotyping New Zealanders?

What does he want? Public floggings?

[Big Dave]

What does he want? Public floggings?

Circumcisions.

[CookMySock]

ah yeah, clearly the "even from Jews" thing is in jest, but some people just aren't going to take it that way. I find it amusing, but I wouldn't say it in certain company, and I certainly wouldn't put it up in writing in a public place, and put my name on it. If it was "even from women" there would likely be hell to pay, rightly so. snort..

edit: It is function of what they believe.. "It is our hope that an apology will only be the start of an entire campaign to remove this repugnant and negative mindset from the culture and political environment in New Zealand." New Zealanders don't HAVE this "negative mindset" - they never did. They wouldn't find it amusing if they did - thats how humour works - stuff that is too close to home isn't funny at all. It is fair for them, or anyone, to need time to repair the harm that has been done to them in the past, as long as they actually do that. After all, it is our kiwi culture they came here for, and we have every right to insist that they not colour our culture with their negative projections, just like they have every right to enjoy our free spirit and happy-go-lucky nature.

DB

[Mikkel]

I generally don't like Israelis TBQH. Nothing to do with their religion or whether they were subjected to hardship during the war... Nothing to do with how the conflict in the middleeast is subtly tied into Israel...

But when you meet them when out travelling, I have never encountered a group which so consistently have behaved in an arrogant and aloof manner. Ask the next hostel owner you meet about stories about Israelis - I'm sure they'll have more than a few.


...and just for the record, I don't like Nazis either... :rolleyes:

[jonbuoy]

I generally don't like Israelis TBQH. Nothing to do with their religion or whether they were subjected to hardship during the war... Nothing to do with how the conflict in the middleeast is subtly tied into Israel...

But when you meet them when out travelling, I have never encountered a group which so consistently have behaved in an arrogant and aloof manner. Ask the next hostel owner you meet about stories about Israelis - I'm sure they'll have more than a few.


...and just for the record, I don't like Nazis either... :rolleyes:

He's not wrong you know.

[imdying]

Pssssh... I rag on every ethic group... if kykes think they're gonna be excluded, they're mistaken!

[Donor]

Oh for fucks sakes.

As a person of jewish descent...

When will these bearded torah wielding sooks get the hell over themselves?

Not only did they steal a country, they've also nicked the word holocaust and bloody well trade marked it, and have booked the WAAAAAAAHmbulance solid for the foreseeable future.

Shit oh dear, these pricks need a sense of humor - thank blazes I have no interest in my heritage...

[James Deuce]

He's not wrong you know.

He is. I don't know if they still do it now, but it used to be quite common to find a couple of Israeli lads (or ladettes) touring the Sth Is. after finishing their compulsory military service.

For some reason I always used to bump into them on those one lane road/rail bridges on the West Coast and would invariably end up helping them pick their bike up after they'd wedged a wheel in a railway line and tumbled to their doom.

Friendly to a fault, pleasant and interesting to talk to as well.

[Mikkel]

For some reason I always used to bump into them on those one lane road/rail bridges on the West Coast and would invariably end up helping them pick their bike up after they'd wedged a wheel in a railway line and tumbled to their doom.

Friendly to a fault, pleasant and interesting to talk to as well.

Oh sure, if they are not in a big group and they actually want/need something from you there are no hassles...

[Big Dave]

Aye James, folks is folks.

Until they get to be a spokesperson or an Official.
Then the law of 'none of us is as stupid as all of us' applies.

[dipshit]

But when you meet them when out travelling, I have never encountered a group which so consistently have behaved in an arrogant and aloof manner.

I have a friend that was a tour guide at a wildlife park and she said pretty much the same thing once.

BTW... being an Israeli does not mean being a Jew. It is not the same thing.

[jim.cox]

I would almost be prepared to listen them - if they treated the Palestinians fairly.

Pot meet Kettle - Kettle meet Pot

[Flatcap]

And another thing:

If he thinks NZ needs a attitude change, why doesn't he tell the mossad to fake some other country's passports.

[Steam]

The rudest people I ever met tramping were Israelis.
They didn't bring any food, they went around the hut and begged food from other trampers.
They followed our family group and stopped when we stopped for chocolate breaks, even though we finally asked them not to.
They shit right beside the track and didn't bury it or cover it.
They didn't pay any hut fees even when they were challenged about it by a hut warden and other trampers.

[SpankMe]

:shutup:  

[Hitcher]

The response from our Israeli friend in this morning's paper is, quite frankly, predictable and pathetic.

Jews, blondes, gingas, Irish, Catholics, Maoris, disabled people all find themselves the butt of jokes from time to time. Where this humour has no malice, surely there is no crime? Particularly if it's bloody funny.

[Swoop]

But when you meet them when out travelling, I have never encountered a group which so consistently have behaved in an arrogant and aloof manner. Ask the next hostel owner you meet about stories about bikers - I'm sure they'll have more than a few.
Hmm, Seems the same, yet slightly different...

Public perception 'n' all.

[MisterD]

He's probably just upset that because we've got the Maoris, the Jews don't have a monopoly on the greivance industry.

[koba]

I generally don't like Israelis TBQH. Nothing to do with their religion or whether they were subjected to hardship during the war... Nothing to do with how the conflict in the middleeast is subtly tied into Israel...

But when you meet them when out travelling, I have never encountered a group which so consistently have behaved in an arrogant and aloof manner. Ask the next hostel owner you meet about stories about Israelis - I'm sure they'll have more than a few.


...and just for the record, I don't like Nazis either... :rolleyes:


The rudest people I ever met tramping were Israelis.
They didn't bring any food, they went around the hut and begged food from other trampers.
They followed our family group and stopped when we stopped for chocolate breaks, even though we finally asked them not to.
They shit right beside the track and didn't bury it or cover it.
They didn't pay any hut fees even when they were challenged about it by a hut warden and other trampers.

I hear Danes can be similar but I would hate to stereotype...... guess it just depends on the individual.

Seriously tho, I say just let them wallow in their own self pity.

[Sanx]

That's the problem with Jews generally; absolutely no sense of humour when it comes to people taking the piss out of their piss-ant religion.

And the New Zealand Jewish Council chairman, Geoff Levy, is no exception. He has absolutely no tolerance for anyone who dares say anything negative about Jews / Israel (to him they're one and the same), even if it is obviously a piss-take. And this is despite him having watched both his sons progressively (one more progressively than the other) join the lunatic orthodox fringe of Judaism causing much hurt for him. his wife and other families.

He's a lawyer that always expresses his admiration for British common law and the due processes that form part of it; and by inheritance, New Zealand law. But he's entirely in favour of Israel's policy of carrying out extra-judicial executions of anybody they suspect of being a terrorist. Logic and religion don't mix...

How do I know all of this? He's my uncle. In the seven years I lived in NZ, I saw more of this crap than most people. Protests and complaints every time someone said or did something the Jewish Anti-Defamation League or Jewish Council or B'nai Brith didn't like. From cartoons in The Harold to TVNZ broadcasting a BBC documentary written by (I think) Robert Fisk which the NZ Jewish group felt didn't portray a balanced viewpoint (and by balanced, they mean nothing critical of Israel).

But then, I shouldn't be surprised. Jewish groups around the world never have a sense of humour. You only have to look at the comments from one US-based Jewish pressure group after the Borat movie was released. They accused the writer, one Sascha Baron Cohen of being blatantly anti-semitic...

[imdying]

Gas is the best way to cook.... after all, 14 million Jews can't be wrong :rofl:

[avgas]

bah like Jews now how to laugh anywho.
changing the joke for them telling Billy T he is racist........take away to good parts will you

[Mikkel]

I wasn't aware there was a swastika ascii character - the tag kinda suggests it though.


Gas is the best way to cook.... after all, 14 million Jews can't be wrong :rofl:

'Only' 9-11 million according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust).

That is of course - if holocaust indeed ever happened :rolleyes:

[sosman]

Im not Racist!....I think everyone should own one :innocent:

[Ixion]

Im not a racist. I watch them occasionally, especially Paeroa and the classics, but I've never been interested in being a racist my self.

I am a tourist though, cos I own a toiuring bike.

[Big Dave]

They accused the writer, one Sascha Baron Cohen of being blatantly anti-semitic...

Not all Cohens are jewish. my old man was C of E and I'm slightly to the right of Genghis Kahn.

[SpankMe]

I wasn't aware there was a swastika ascii character

Microsoft removed it (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/02/11/ms_tears_swastika_from_roof/) when twats complained, so to be really PC, they removed the star of david too. Chinese fonts have it thou.

[Pedrostt500]

Joseph Stalin did it better 20 million.
Gas is the best way to cook.... after all, 14 million Jews can't be wrong :rofl:

[CookMySock]

That's the problem with Jews generally; absolutely no sense of humour when it comes to people taking the piss out of their piss-ant religion.They have had a tough time though, and it is fair that they are still sensitive about it. Thats going to wreck their self-esteem for many many years.

But as I said earlier, they choose to come here and be part of our culture, so they can suck it up - Its the kiwi way to take the piss in the friendly non-nasty manner, and mean nothing by it. Process it, boys and girls.

DB

[imdying]

Im not Racist!....I think everyone should own one :innocent:I think it goes "I've nothing against niggers, every home should have one." :whistle:

I recommend this site (rsdb.org) to the our Jewish friends. Then they can rest easy that it's not just them who get the mick taken out of them. Find an ethnicity that's missing from that list, I dare ya!

[Ixion]

That is a very useful site :yes:. I never knew the Arabic for dick was zeb. That will come in handy , I'm sure.

[riffer]

Many of my family are still members of the Jewish church. However - my grandfather was excommunicated from the Jewish church in Wellington for the crime of marrying an English woman. He's the only member of our family not buried in the Jewish cemetary in Makara. The same fate awaits my father, myself, my sons, my brothers and their sons. So be it. At least they relented when my uncle Gerry died and let us in the Synagogue.

It's not just the Holocaust guys - my family on my father's side hail from Riga, Latvia. A certain bloke called Josef Stalin did a good job of trying to wipe out a lot of my family.

Without taking away from the deprivations of God's chosen over the years I would venture there would be a bit more support for the Israelis if they stopped appropriating Palestinian land and bombing their children.

Personally I thought the billboard was pretty funny, especially in the context of which it was written.

[Hitcher]

Not all Israelis are jewish, and not all jews are Israelis. And there are many shades of grey within each category. Generalisations, stereotypes and cheap slurs (such as the tags added to this thread) add little value to the intent of this thread.

[Dave Lobster]

I wasn't aware there was a swastika ascii character - the tag kinda suggests it though.



'Only' 9-11 million according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust).

That is of course - if holocaust indeed ever happened :rolleyes:

My goodness. It's going up all the time. From 2.5 million at the end of the war.. Just lately it was about 4 million.. Feck.. they're all coming out of the woodwork to be part of it. It can't be THAT bad..

[fridayflash]

The response from our Israeli friend in this morning's paper is, quite frankly, predictable and pathetic.

Jews, blondes, gingas, Irish, Catholics, Maoris, disabled people all find themselves the butt of jokes from time to time. Where this humour has no malice, surely there is no crime? Particularly if it's bloody funny.
yep too troo! i belong to at least two thirds of those 'sub groups'
and dont feel the need to attempt to hold the remaining population
of the western world to ransom over it

[McJim]

That is of course - if holocaust indeed ever happened :rolleyes:
Aha! - It was you that drew those cartoons to annoy the Muslims wasn't it bacon boy? :rofl: (Denmark = Major bacon producer for all you non-europeans out there - all the more reason for his anti semitic comments.)

I have to confess that I have lost count of the number of times I have seen Scots and Scotland ridiculed in the name of advertising. Even funnier is the fact that you don't catch any of us whinging about it though.

Odd innit?

[Ixion]

Is it possible to ridicule the Scotch. Surely they are in all cases proof that truth is stranger than fiction ?

[McJim]

Is it possible to ridicule the Scotch. Surely they are in all cases proof that truth is stranger than fiction ?

Not all scotch is delivered in cases. Sometimes it's in miniature bottles and sometimes it can even be supplied by the keg :rofl:

[Dave Lobster]

Is it possible to ridicule the Scotch.

Oh yes.. Apologies for the age of this joke..


Fast forward to 2006 - it is just before Scotland v Brazil at the next World Cup Group game. Ronaldo goes into the Brazilian changing room to find all his teammates looking a bit glum.

"What's up?" he asks.
"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only Scotland. They're sh*te and we can't be bothered".

Ronaldo looks at them and says "Well, I reckon I can beat these by myself, you lads go down the pub."

So Ronaldo goes out to play Scotland by himself and the rest of the Brazilian team go off for a few jars.

After a few pints they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads "Brazil 1 - Scotland 0 (Ronaldo 10minutes)". He is beating Scotland all by himself!

Anyway, a few more pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on". They put the teletext on.

"Result from the Stadium "Brazil 1 (Ronaldo 10 minutes) - Scotland 1 (Angus 89 minutes)".

They can't believe it, he has single handedly got a draw against Scotland!! They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate him. They find him in the dressing room, still in his gear, sat with his head in his hands.

He refuses to look at them. "I've let you down, I've let you down."

"Don't be daft, you got a draw against Scotland, all by yourself. And they only scored at the very, very end!"

"No, No, I have, I've let you down... I got sent off after 12 minutes"

:lol:

[Street Gerbil]

No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.



Where this humour has no malice, surely there is no crime? Particularly if it's bloody funny

Yes, very fucking funny, my ass! We are not overreacting (yes I am Jewish and fucking proud of it). It is just how dehumanization starts. It starts with shits and giggles, and then one idiot takes it seriously and the next thing you know there is a bloodbath. Trust me, we take the "Never again" business very seriously. We fucking mean it.



New Zealanders don't HAVE this "negative mindset" - they never did.

Yeah right. Just read the fucking thread.



But as I said earlier, they choose to come here and be part of our culture, so they can suck it up - Its the kiwi way to take the piss in the friendly non-nasty manner, and mean nothing by it. Process it, boys and girls.

I would almost agree, but we tried it once and it didn't quite work out in Germany in late 30th. Some things should not be uttered even as a joke (see above).



yep too troo! i belong to at least two thirds of those 'sub groups' and dont feel the need to attempt to hold the remaining population of the western world to ransom over it
Let me guess. Could it be because none of those sub groups were dehumanized and exterminated like vermin in the recent past? Forgive me, that's not ransom. That's resisting dehumanization. We know all too well where it leads. Trust me. I've seen it in action (happened to be born in the wrong neighborhood).



there would be a bit more support for the Israelis if they stopped appropriating Palestinian land and bombing their children
Let me guess, we should stop using their blood for Matzos too? Uh oh. It is very easy to pass judgment if you only know one side of the story, especially as biased as it is being presented in New Zealand. What's much harder is to actually fire up your brains and to figure out what's actually going on and what are you not being told. Besides you really do not seem to be as worked up over daily missile attacks, snipers, lynchings and suicide bombers. What gives?

One last thing. I understand I am making myself a lot of enemies on on this forum by posting this. It is ok. If you think that the whole story is funny and the Jews must just suck it up, I do not want you to be my friend anyhow. Thank you all for clarifying where you stand. SG out.


My goodness. It's going up all the time. From 2.5 million at the end of the war.. Just lately it was about 4 million.. Feck.. they're all coming out of the woodwork to be part of it. It can't be THAT bad..
Dave, I hope it is just a poorly phrased joke. It is really difficult you know to figure out fast how many of my people died, when we were processed on the industrial scale. Ovens and mass graves have the tendency to hide the exact fugures.
Unfortunately both figures quoted in your post were optimistic (if the word "optimistic" can even be used here) estimates which proved to be inaccurate. We will never know the exact figure. We can just fight bigotry tooth and nail to ensure that it will never ever happen again. As above.

[CookMySock]

if they stopped appropriating Palestinian land and bombing their children.oh come on now, take all the fun away why dontcha !!

DB

[Flatcap]

One last thing. I understand I am making myself a lot of enemies on on this forum by posting this.

Why would you think that? The purpose of this site is to exchange views.

It would be bloody boring if everyone agreed with each other...

[Dave Lobster]

Dave, I hope it is just a poorly phrased joke. It is really difficult you know to figure out fast how many of my people died, when we were processed on the industrial scale.

Not so. The Germans were/are VERY methodic in their documenting. The figures are massaged all the time by Israel/american sympathisers in order to further the jewish revenge that started when they ran the shambles that was the 'war crimes' tribunal post WW2.



Ovens and mass graves have the tendency to hide the exact figures.

No, it's jewish propaganda that is more effective at that. Ask any Palestinian..



Unfortunately both figures quoted in your post were optimistic (if the word "optimistic" can even be used here) estimates which proved to be inaccurate. We will never know the exact figure. We can just fight bigotry tooth and nail to ensure that it will never ever happen again. As above.

Proved by whom? Someone that was there? Someone without an agenda?
It's been happening for centuries. There were masacres of jews in England centuries before the one in Germany.

[McJim]

No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.

There are more aspects to Judaism perceived by the great unwashed than the Holocaust or Israel. Is it not possible that the advert penned by Draft FCB was alluding to neither of those aspects and was, in fact, passing comment on how difficult it is to do business with a Jew since they are such hard negitiators (a reputation shared with my own folk!).

I don't work for Draft FCB so I'm not asserting anything. Just relating how I read the copy.

As another example - I would not wager money on myself to beat a person of African descent in the 100 metre dash nor would I pick me in a boxing match with a Maori. Does that make me a racist?

[Ixion]

...
No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.
...


To be sure I would, if they sold that which I required. I am entirely liberal in such matters. Why, I'll even deal with establishments vthat do business with women. Or, dwarves, even . Indeed, so much so that I suspect that I amy have even done business with a establishment that would serve moderators. Can't get more liberal than that (can I add any more minorities to my list ?)

But, I will ask you , do you consider the joke, below, about the Scotch, to be equally objectionable? It too pokes fun at a particular race.

And if you do not, why not?

And do not, pray, respond, with something along the lines of "Because someone tried to kill our ancestors , and not theirs". I remember Culloden, and the clearances.

The Scotch got over it.

[Ixion]

T.. passing comment on how difficult it is to do business with a Jew since they are such hard negitiators (a reputation shared with my own folk!).

..v

Ah, would that you might have known my great-grandsire, Solomon McTavish. He who was so tragically mothed to death. We are of mixed blood. Very mixed.

[Dave Lobster]

And if you do not, why not?



It isn't racist at all. Jewism (or whatever they want to fucking call it) is a religion, not a race.

Remember.. It's shite being Scottish. (Scotch is something you do an egg :niceone:)

[McJim]

The Scotch got over it.

Maybe so Ix but I'd like to clarify for you that the word Scotch refers to:

Scotch Whisky
Scotch Eggs
Scotch Mist
Butter Scotch
Hop Scotch

and NOT the the people from Scotland who are Scots.

You New Zealandish bar steward.

[Flatcap]

No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.
.

Now, this is a fair statement. The ad was uncalled for and in my opinion not at all funny.

The ad was pulled and we can all exercise our right to boycott the company.

My issue is with Dor Shapira asserting that a poorly thought out advertising campaign reflects "a repugnant and negative mindset [in] the culture and political environment in New Zealand." I would like to see the research he has done to back this up. I would suggest he is engaging in the stereotyping he proports to abhor

[Flatcap]

Maybe so Ix but I'd like to clarify for you that the word Scotch refers to:

Scotch Whisky
Scotch Eggs
Scotch Mist
Butter Scotch
Hop Scotch

and NOT the the people from Scotland who are Scots.

You New Zealandish bar steward.

They are Scotch after 9 pints, or if their name is Sean Connery

[McJim]

They are Scotch after 9 pints, or if their name is Sean Connery

that's King Sean to you sonny :rofl:

[Ixion]

Maybe so Ix but I'd like to clarify for you that the word Scotch refers to:

Scotch Whisky
Scotch Eggs
Scotch Mist
Butter Scotch
Hop Scotch

and NOT the the people from Scotland who are Scots.

You New Zealandish bar steward.

Oh goody. I have done this before

I cannot be having with running after every passing linguistic fad at my time of life. The habits of early life stay with us for aye. If we are to gae aboot after the latest faddishness, your preference would needs to rendered into txt , and become Sctz

Scotch was good enough for Sam Johnson, and Boswell and Burns . And Sir Alexander Macdonald, no less! And Charles Stuart, the Royal Martyr. As a good Jacobite, I can take no higher authority




and that all such His Majesty's subjects of England and Ireland as shall join with him in pursuance of this Agreement may come to the Scotch army and join with them (K Chas I , Engagement)

Mr. Arthur Lee mentioned some Scotch who had taken possession of a barren part of America, and wondered why they would choose it.Johnson: "Why, Sir, all barrenness is comparative. The Scotch would not know it to be barren." (SJ)

I have been correcting several Scotch accents in my friend Boswell. I doubt, Sir, if any Scotchman ever attains to a perfect English pronunciation(AM)

My heart warmed to my countrymen, and my Scotch blood boiled with indignation. I jumped from the benches, roared out 'Damn you, you rascals!', hissed and was in the greatest rage . . . I hated the English; I wished from my soul that the Union was broke and that we might give them another battle of Bannockburn (JB)

On A Scotch Bard, Gone To The West Indies (RB)


Three of the four authorities I mentioned being Scottish. Or Scots. Or Scotch. Or Scottis (the most technically correct term) . If Sir Alexander MacDonald, MacDonald of Sleat, does not know what he ought to be termed, I know not who would. Not to mention Mr Burns.


The same applies to Welch, BTW

(And besides, it does annoy them so :devil2:)

[Dave Lobster]

Tsk.. Teuchters. :laugh:

[McJim]

Oh goody. I have done this before

I cannot be having with running after every passing linguistic fad at my time of life. The habits of early life stay with us for aye. If we are to gae aboot after the latest faddishness, your preference would needs to rendered into txt , and become Sctz

Scotch was good enough for Sam Johnson, and Boswell and Burns . And Sir Alexander Macdonald, no less! And Charles Stuart, the Royal Martyr. As a good Jacobite, I can take no higher authority



Three of the four authorities I mentioned being Scottish. Or Scots. Or Scotch. Or Scottis (the most technically correct term) . If Sir Alexander MacDonald, MacDonald of Sleat, does not know what he ought to be termed, I know not who would. Not to mention Mr Burns.


The same applies to Welch, BTW

(And besides, it does annoy them so :devil2:)

My Bad Ix (boy who is not able satisfactorily to explain what a Hrung is, nor why it should choose to collapse on Betelgeuse Seven) I thought the thread title was we're all dirty and into semantics. :rofl:

[El Dopa]

Scotch was good enough for Sam Johnson, and Boswell and Burns . And Sir Alexander Macdonald, no less! And Charles Stuart, the Royal Martyr. As a good Jacobite, I can take no higher authority


They are Scotch after 9 pints, or if their name is Sean Connery

I'm rather surprised that anyone can pronounce anything after 9 pints of scotch.

[Flatcap]

I'm rather surprised that anyone can pronounce anything after 9 pints of scotch.

You underestimate the Skirt-wearing Sweaties

[Dave Lobster]

I'm rather surprised that anyone can pronounce anything after 9 pints of scotch.

It's the only way none Scottish people can understand what's being said. ;)

[McJim]

You underestimate the Skirt-wearing Sweaties


It's the only way none Scottish people can understand what's being said. ;)

Is it just me or are the scooter boys havin' a wee go at the Scots?

Come doon here 'till ah pit the heid in yez ya bassas! :rofl:

Ah hivnae bin called a sweatie since I worked in London.

[Flatcap]

Ah hivnae bin called a sweatie since I worked in London.

You've discovered the wonders of anti-persperant then!


I'm half sweaty meself so you can't call me racist

[Shadows]

The fuckers make martyrs of themselves at every opportunity. Almost as embarrassing as the Maoris.

[riffer]

The fuckers make martyrs of themselves at every opportunity. Almost as embarrassing as the Maoris.

Would that be the Scottish or the Jews? It's tough for me being Latvian Jew on one side and Scottish on the other.

Just interested to know which part of me you're trying to offend. :crazy:

[Shadows]

Would that be the Scottish or the Jews? It's tough for me being Latvian Jew on one side and Scottish on the other.

Just interested to know which part of me you're trying to offend. :crazy:

Fuck it. Must try harder.

Could be worse though. At least you're not part Hori as well.

[Street Gerbil]

It isn't racist at all. Jewism (or whatever they want to fucking call it) is a religion, not a race.
Oh. Pray tell, does it make me a Tunguse or a Native American?


But, I will ask you , do you consider the joke, below, about the Scotch, to be equally objectionable? It too pokes fun at a particular race.

And if you do not, why not?
Because in your own words "It [...] pokes fun at a particular race"
If the original billboard was saying "Our prices are so low that even a Jew would agree he's got a bargain", I would call it bad taste. The one I am upset with is not a bad taste. It is dehumanizing.



I remember Culloden, and the clearances. The Scotch got over it.
Have you ever heard "it is a shame that Cumberland hasn't finished off you vermin"? I heard that regarding Hitler and Jews for the first time when I was five. I will "get over it" when I am certain that the world has overgrown a desire to declare the whole ethnicity not worthy of existence. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, unfortunately.


My issue is with Dor Shapira asserting that a poorly thought out advertising campaign reflects "a repugnant and negative mindset [in] the culture and political environment in New Zealand." I would like to see the research he has done to back this up. I would suggest he is engaging in the stereotyping he proports to abhor
I just came across a letter to the editor published in yesterday's Herald, saying that "rather than an insult to Jews, the ad is an insult to all decent New Zealanders". Are you saying that an average Joe Bloggs shares this sentiment and the rest is just a bunch of bad apples? If yes, I have to agree with your statement about stereotyping.

[Ixion]

Fuck it. Must try harder.

Could be worse though. At least you're not part Hori as well.

Oi. Watch it, I'm part hori. Next thing I suppose you'll be poking the borak at the geordies. Ain't nowhere further down to go once you reach them. Except the spics of course , but they don't even rank mention

Can y'guess some of the other parts of m' ancestry. Mixed pickles, decidedly mixed pickles.

[Shadows]

Oi. Watch it, I'm part hori. Next thing I suppose you'll be poking the borak at the geordies.

Awwww shit, don't get me started...

[MisterD]

my grandfather was excommunicated from the Jewish church in Wellington for the crime of marrying an English woman.

Was that crime in the eyes of the Jewish faith, or just typical Kiwi pom-bashing?

[MisterD]

No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.


Frankly, I don't think many people would have batted an eyelid, other than those whose job is to get all upset about such things. The point is, that this advert is for a TV program set in the 1960's when such sentiments were common - I thought that was perfectly obvious context.

If there's one interesting thing this saga shows, it's how similar the Arabs and Jews really are when it comes to being professionally touchy (hat tip:Pat Condell) it must be something to do with the desert heat. But then strictly speaking "Semitic" refers to Arabs, Jews, Phonecians...not just followers of the first Abrahamic faith.

[Dave Lobster]

Have you ever heard "it is a shame that Cumberland hasn't finished off you vermin"? I heard that regarding Hitler and Jews for the first time when I was five. I will "get over it" when I am certain that the world has overgrown a desire to declare the whole ethnicity not worthy of existence. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, unfortunately.




Don't jews stop and have a think about WHY there is such wide sentiment for this?

[James Deuce]

The Celts had a much harder time of it.

I think I should start getting offended at ginga, Welsh, Basque, Irish, and Scots jokes, and any joke containing a knot.

[Flatcap]

I just came across a letter to the editor published in yesterday's Herald, saying that "rather than an insult to Jews, the ad is an insult to all decent New Zealanders". Are you saying that an average Joe Bloggs shares this sentiment and the rest is just a bunch of bad apples? If yes, I have to agree with your statement about stereotyping.

Yes I would say that.

It is also an insult to New Zealand comedians -the 'humour' was poorly executed, lame and obvious. A small child could think up a catchier punchline.

[Street Gerbil]

Don't jews stop and have a think about WHY there is such wide sentiment for this?
Oh, I know exactly why it is happening. I've been trying to tell you all along. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization)

[Dave Lobster]

No. The dehumanisation is what you think is the result of everyone else having a thing about jews.

My question (which you seem to have missed the point of) is WHY do you think that people have something against them?

You must have done something to deserve it.

[Street Gerbil]

You must have done something to deserve it.
Please, enlighten me, where did we misstep to raise such an ire of people like you?

[Dave Lobster]

Please, enlighten me, where did we misstep to raise such an ire of people like you?


By harping on about all the bad things that have happened to the jewish people. The CONSTANT tirade of feel sorry for us, the nazis killed loads of our familes. The massaging of the figures..

But most of all, you organised the hanging of people at Dachau only because they were members of the SS. As an ex member of the forces, it disgusts me that people would be hanged purely because of the unit they were in.

Edit.. And another thing.. The It shouldn't be allowed to happen again sentiment. It's happening now, in Africa. Why doesn't israel do something about it, to stop it happening? It has an army.. it has the money (thanks to america).. it has the tanks, etc. Or is it more of a It shouldn't be allowed to happen to usagain sentiment?

[Big Dave]

The Celts had a much harder time of it.

I think I should start getting offended at ginga, Welsh, Basque, Irish, and Scots jokes, and any joke containing a knot.

This piece of string walks into a bar....

[imdying]

If you think that the whole story is funny and the Jews must just suck it up, I do not want you to be my friend anyhow. Thank you all for clarifying where you stand. SG out.Yes, now fuck up yid or we'll make you suck on a shower head :rolleyes:

[Shadows]

No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.


Shit no - I would go near them if they deal with niggers!

[riffer]

Was that crime in the eyes of the Jewish faith, or just typical Kiwi pom-bashing?

I was always told it was the former. Hardly surprising. IMO the Jewish are the most racist of the lot.

[Sanx]

I was always told it was the former. Hardly surprising. IMO the Jewish are the most racist of the lot.

Yup. They are, generally...

[motorbyclist]

My issue is with Dor Shapira asserting that a poorly thought out advertising campaign reflects "a repugnant and negative mindset [in] the culture and political environment in New Zealand." I would like to see the research he has done to back this up. I would suggest he is engaging in the stereotyping he proports to abhor

yeah i was thinking that too..

i mean, prime is an aussie owned and run channel, so how does their advertisement reflect on NZ culture?


and wtf is on with people not being able to take a joke? i mean, do you REALLY think in this day and age NZ of all nations will start gassing jews? i mean, seriously? what's the harm in a smart-ass joke?

jews seem to share a common problem with maori's - whenever they get offended over a seemingly harmless transgression they go all nuts playing the race card while the rest of the nation rolls it's eyes and the net result is further damage to the group's reputation.

the main reason it's funny to see a jew joke is it's taboo - stop making a fuss and it wont be funny. better yet, lighten up

you'd be better off ensuring the safety of your people by stopping "ethnic cleansing" across the board, rather than antagonising the general populace whenever someone cracks a joke about jews

[jonbuoy]

He is. I don't know if they still do it now, but it used to be quite common to find a couple of Israeli lads (or ladettes) touring the Sth Is. after finishing their compulsory military service.

For some reason I always used to bump into them on those one lane road/rail bridges on the West Coast and would invariably end up helping them pick their bike up after they'd wedged a wheel in a railway line and tumbled to their doom.

Friendly to a fault, pleasant and interesting to talk to as well.

What a bizzar coincidence - you meeting every single Israeli person I've met.

[crynsie]

This goes a little :Offtopic:, but stay with me...

i mean, prime is an aussie owned and run channel, so how does their advertisement reflect on NZ culture?

Prime has been owned by SKY for over 2 years now and all of the advertising / marketing (billboards etc) are done by a New Zealand agency.
I know because I work at Prime.

These billboards have done their job in getting people to talk about the show and hopefully people will tune in for (caution, blatant advertising coming...) Madmen on Sunday 22nd June at 8.30pm.
The more people tune in, the more Prime / SKY can charge for advertising and I may get a pay rise in September to buy more bike gear.


So everyone watch Prime!



(puts on flame retardant suit)

[Pedrostt500]

A lesson I learned years ago is if you are willing to take the piss out of your self, then others are less likly to take the piss out of you, and funnily enough I learned this leasson in the 70s when there were alot of Jew jokes around, then the Jews started telling jokes about them selves, that were funnier, and then the jew jokes stopped being funny unless being told by a Jew.
35 years on and it seams that the Jews / Israilies seem to have had a humour labotomy and cant see the funny side of life any more. I wonder if it is a case of that they have been at war for so long that they have forgotten what and who they are fighting, because I offten wonder what good ever comes out of Israil at this present time, what contributions to Humanity as a whole is made by that particurlar state, what motorbikes do they make?.
Kiwis dont mind being the butt of the joke in general as long as the joke teller realises pay backs are a bitch.

[Street Gerbil]

By harping on about all the bad things that have happened to the jewish people. The CONSTANT tirade of feel sorry for us, the nazis killed loads of our familes. The massaging of the figures..

Ok, work with me here. How many people shall we pretend never even existed to make you feel comfortable, Dave?


But most of all, you organised the hanging of people at Dachau only because they were members of the SS. As an ex member of the forces, it disgusts me that people would be hanged purely because of the unit they were in.
Oh, so Nuremberg Trials were one of those Jewish witch hunts. Thanks goodness, at least Germans do not share this opinion.


Edit.. And another thing.. The It shouldn't be allowed to happen again sentiment. It's happening now, in Africa. Why doesn't israel do something about it, to stop it happening? It has an army.. it has the money (thanks to america).. it has the tanks, etc. Or is it more of a It shouldn't be allowed to happen to usagain sentiment?
You know, Dave, I've been thinking a lot about that myself. Assuming hypothetically that Israeli Defense Forces are not needed to guard the gates at home, could you really imagine what the reaction of the world to such a sortie would be? Americans are now learning the hard way what happens to your reputation when you send an army to correct the injustices in some distant part of the globe. They are taking quite a pounding and they are not even Jewish. Get real! The intellectuals of the world would instantly accuse Israel in all conceivable (and otherwise) sins from expanding the "Liebensraum", to penis snatching (http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=penis+snatchers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a). All Israel can do is send the unmarked aid packages to disaster zones, so that people being rescued won't feel bad for being saved with Jewish equipment. Of all the places, they were even asked not to send emergency teams to New York on 9/11 "to avoid possible tensions in a delicate situation".



how does [...] advertisement reflect on NZ culture?

I agree. It does not. Ad agencies are known for their gaffes, some worse than others. One of the other examples I remember, was a photo of a freshly slaughtered Bosnian guy in a pool of blood under the caption "United colors of Benetton". That one however caused an outrage of a global scale.


and wtf is on with people not being able to take a joke? i mean, do you REALLY think in this day and age NZ of all nations will start gassing jews? i mean, seriously? what's the harm in a smart-ass joke?

A good joke is something funny. A poor joke is based on a racial stereotype. I would not be happy about it but I wouldn't call it racist, just bad taste, but then ad agencies just do not know any better (see above). This ad, however, implies that one sub-group of human beings is less human than the rest, and the agency in question is actually so liberal and progressive (or desperate) that they are willing to do business even with that sub-group. That, mon ami, is no joke. My issue is not with the ad. I am perfectly satisfied that the ad was pulled and the apology was offered. My beef is with a reaction of a few folks here on KB to the article.
P.S. Flatcap, I started to see what you meant when I started getting PMs of support. Yes there are bad apples, as always, but the vast majority of Kiwis are nice blokes. Glad to agree with you on that one. Thank you guys for your support! It means heaps to me.



the main reason it's funny to see a jew joke is it's taboo - stop making a fuss and it wont be funny.
I welcome a good joke. As long as it is a joke and it is funny.



A lesson I learned years ago is if you are willing to take the piss out of your self, then others are less likly to take the piss out of you, and funnily enough I learned this leasson in the 70s when there were alot of Jew jokes around, then the Jews started telling jokes about them selves, that were funnier, and then the jew jokes stopped being funny unless being told by a Jew.

As above. I agree that making fun of one's own stereotypes defuses the situation, and those who follow my postings on this board know that I do that a lot, but some "jokes" are inherently not funny.




because I offten wonder what good ever comes out of Israil at this present time, what contributions to Humanity as a whole is made by that particurlar state, what motorbikes do they make?.

Guilty as charged. There is no Israeli made motorcycles. The best I can tell there is an incalculable number of scooters of all sizes, makes, and models, a certain percentage of hogs, a fair share of European and Japanese superbikes, and a few dozens of Goldwings. Google if you are interested in Israeli contribution to the humanity in science and technology. There is a plenty of articles about the Pentium lineup and Internet Explorer, and some really useful medicines, just to name a few. Not to mention our contribution to journalism - judging from the number of headlines we inspire, one can assume that Israel is the biggest and the most important country right in the middle of the world.


Kiwis dont mind being the butt of the joke in general as long as the joke teller realises pay backs are a bitch.
THere is that. During my recent trip to Australia, I was asked whether I find Aussie sheep more sexually attractive than the ones in NZ. I was so taken aback, I could only mutter "How the hell am I supposed to know? You guys are the experts" and that was it :-)))

[MisterD]

Ok, work with me here. How many people shall we pretend never even existed to make you feel comfortable, Dave?


How about the same number of victims of attempted genocides in Bosnia or Rwanda, added to the gays, gypsies, communists...who were also gassed by Mr Hitler.

The Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering and victimisation and the sooner they stop pretending otherwise the better disposed everyone else might be towrds them...

[Kickaha]

Americans are now learning the hard way what happens to your reputation when you send an army to correct the injustices in some distant part of the globe.

What injustice was the American army sent to correct? I hope you're not talking about Iraq?

[McJim]

THere is that. During my recent trip to Australia, I was asked whether I find Aussie sheep more sexually attractive than the ones in NZ. I was so taken aback, I could only mutter "How the hell am I supposed to know? You guys are the experts" and that was it :-)))
So you're telling me that Jewish New Zealanders are forbidden from 'Porking' Mutton? :rofl:

[Street Gerbil]

So you're telling me that Jewish New Zealanders are forbidden from 'Porking' Mutton? :rofl:
McJim, you can't be serious? How can we possibly "pork" it? That would not be kosher!!! :shifty:

[Sanx]

A lot of the problem stems from the general belief of those who have a religion that because they follow a partcular religious creed, the belief should automatically be respected. Jews don't have the monopoly on this; arguably the Muslims are the worst proponents with calls for immediate death / censorship / apologies should anyone dare sully the name, reputation or memories of a certain sixth century merchant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad)and paedophile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha). Last year, a British teacher in Sudan was arrested (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7112929.stm) and threatened with jail and / or 40 lashes for allowing the class she taught to name a teddy bear "Mohammed". And I don't think anyone's forgotten the Danish cartoon madness.

Some Jews do, however, share the same tendency of getting very uptight when anyone questions their beliefs or the rationale behind them (usually non-existent, but that's one for the Scottish thread). Some Jews also do have a tendency to take the tag of "God's Chosen People" a little to literally, and I've often got the distinct impression that they look down upon anyone who doesn't happen to share their particular beliefs. I've witnessed this in my own family; from my mother's annoying habit of, when talking about some random person, saying "Did you know he's Jewish?" to other family members stand-offish treatment of my (nominally) Muslim wife.

In more recent years, the issue of the Nazi genocide has become intrinsically linked to the Jewish faith by that faith's proponents. There is an assertion that the world should never be allowed to forget what happened to the Jews under the Nazis. Anyone who questions it, or even some aspect of it, is immediately dismissed as a "holocaust-denier". Debate is simply not allowed. Whilst it is absolutely certain that millions died in appalling circumstances, there are many Jews who conveniently forget and therefore regard the deaths of homosexuals, gypsies, communists and anyone else who didn't happen to agree with the Nazis are less important than the deaths of Jews. More people died under Stalin than under Hitler, but their deaths don't rate a mention. Neither do the non-Jewish victims of the Khmer Rouge, Mao's purges, Pinochet, Idi Amin, Pap Doc Duvalier or the Hutu.

It is certainly true that Jews have been treated quite badly over the years. The stereotype of Jews being very tight with money probably stems from various Papal edicts starting in around 1100AD that banned Jews from many occupations. One of the few trades left to them was money-lending as usuary was condemned by the Vatican as being un-Christian. Given that the Catholic church labelled the Jews as Christ-killers, it was easy for priests to lay blame on the Jewish community for anything that happened to need a scapegoat. Largely ignorant populations simply believed whatever they were told by priests (ever wonder why priests refer to their congregations as their 'flock') and would then proceed to run the Jews out of town. Because this happened with such monotonous regularity, Jews tended to keep their money in a form that was easily transportable; gemstones were popular because of the high value-to-size ratio. To this day, the proportion of Jews in the big diamond cutting and polishing houses far outstrips the proportion in the local populations.

But some of the blame for the attitude of the local populations must lie fairly at the door of the Jews too. As a group, they are staggeringly insular, especially the more orthodox Ashkenazi (black hat and silly beard brigade) communities. There is little attempt to integrate with the host population, especially when compared to more recent immigrants; in the UK, for instance, compare the Indian community in Cheatham Hill in Manchester to the Jewish population. Even in liberal NZ, hardly a hotbed of Jewish orthodoxy, I've seen fathers refuse to attend their daughter's wedding because her husband-to-be wasn't Jewish. I've seen fathers engineer the dissolution of their son's engagement for the same reason. Two of my first cousins refused to come to my wedding, as it was on a Saturday - the Jewish Sabbath.

Jews have also suffered massacres at the hands of local populations over the centuries. In 1190, Jews took shelter from a violent mob in Clifford's Tower (http://www.yorkcastle.com/pages/jewish_history.html)in the English city of York. Those that didn't die when the wooden tower was torched either took their own lives or were murdered by the mob outside.
German Jews were massacred by Crusaders in the early 13th century; many joined the Khazari Jews in Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine. Jews in that area became known, and hated for, their role in the Polish government; the collection of taxes and duties from the nobility and land-owners. With prompting from the Catholic church, the country's lower classes - including Ukrainian Cossacks - began to rise up against the ruling classes, and their agents, the Jews. The Cossacks, seeking to free their country from Polish rule, launched a series of uprisings in 1648 and 1649 that resulted in the deaths (in spectacularly horrific manners) of over 200,000 people, about half of which were Jewish. 350 years later, after the 1917 revolution, over 100,00 Jews were killed by their fellow Ukranians who still regarded the Jews as having undue financial influence and power. During WWII, many Ukranians collaborated with the Nazis in exterminating what was left of the Jewish population.

So it is against this background that the Jews might be regarded as having something of a valid persecution complex, and are therefore rather touchy about any threats made against their religion. It's brought about an us-against-the-world mentality, along with the far-from-groundless viewpoint that Jews have to stand up for themselves, because history has shown that no-one else will. And the way Israel behaves now is a good example of this mentality in action. Invaded four times by its Arab neighbours between independence in 1948 (independence brought about by the same kind of terrorism Israel now condemns), Israel now has military power that outstrips anything in the region, and it isn't afraid to use it to protect the country, no matter how nebulous that threat may be. They will viciously defend their country, and help fellow Jews, but show very little concern for anyone who isn't Jewish.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel mounted two huge operations to bring the Falasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel) to Israel to escape civil war and famine in Ethiopia. More than 120,000 Falasha emmigrated. Millions of non-Jewish Ethiopians died of starvation but Israel did very little to help. Once the Jews were out, involvement stopped.

Personally, I think if Jews stopped being so bloody precious about their religion, tolerated questioning and criticism, and stopped automatically linking being anti-Israel to being anti-semitic, they might find people's regard of Judaism and its followers increase. But while you have these over-the-top reactions to anything the most-touchy Jew finds slightly insulting, people's general perception of Jews will continue to fall. There is nothing more guaranteed to foster dislike of a minority than that minority's habit of thinking of themselves as being better than everyone else and automatically being deserving of respect because of who they are...

[Street Gerbil]

I am too lazy to answer to such a detailed posting, containing so much accurate and quite a bit of inaccurate information. Please forgive me for just highlighting just a few cherry-picked points.


A lot of the problem stems from the general belief of those who have a religion that because they follow a partcular religious creed, the belief should automatically be respected.

Here comes a leap from issues of ethnicity to faith. Sanx, I know it is your favorite subject, but what on earth has it got to do with the issue at hand?



In more recent years, the issue of the Nazi genocide has become intrinsically linked to the Jewish faith by that faith's proponents.
Wrong. It was never a question of faith, always of a lineage. Short version: "if you are jewish, half-jewish, or quarter-jewish, you are in a big fat trouble".


There is an assertion that the world should never be allowed to forget what happened to the Jews under the Nazis.
Why not? Forgetting history is the first step towards repeating it, you know.



There are many Jews who conveniently forget and therefore regard the deaths of homosexuals, gypsies, communists and anyone else who didn't happen to agree with the Nazis are less important than the deaths of Jews.

Bull. No one discounts their deaths.But consider this: Some were massacred in the framework of nazi eugenics program. Others were rounded up for being transients (i.e. leading a nomadic way of life). Only Jews were exterminated solely for having Jewish, half-Jewish, or quarter-Jewish blood. It was genocide in its strictest academic definition - an extermination of the ethnicity. Herein lies the difference.


More people died under Stalin than under Hitler, but their deaths don't rate a mention.
Here is something I agree with. It is a bit of a travesty. Germany was defeated, so saying it out loud was easy. No one on the other hand dared mention crimes perpetrated in Russia, especially given their contribution in the war against Nazi Germany. By the way, in terms of body count, Stalin did slightly worse than Hitler, if you do not take military losses during WWII into account. For almost entire period of his reign, Stalin was an equal opportunity murderer. He did plan a mass execution of Soviet Jews, but luckily, died hours before signing the order.



There is little attempt to integrate with the host population,
Does the term "Germans of Abrahamaic persuasion" ring a bell?


Two of my first cousins refused to come to my wedding, as it was on a Saturday - the Jewish Sabbath.
I am trully sorry, but are you quite sure that was the reason rather than an excuse? It is perfectly ok to attend a wedding during Shabbat, as long as you don't have to drive to get there. Nor there is a ban on attending non-Jewish weddings as long as it does not involve idol-worshiping (neither Christian, not Muslim traditions involve idol-worshiping according to Judaism).


independence brought about by the same kind of terrorism Israel now condemns)
Wrong. Only military objects were targeted. Authorities were always notified in advance to avoid collateral damage.


[Israelis] will viciously defend their country, and help fellow Jews, but show very little concern for anyone who isn't Jewish.
Again, not so (e.g. 90% of children from Tchernobyl were rehabilitated in Israel), but yes, most of the time they just airlift their own, as any other country would. If you blame Israel for that, why don't you criticize NZ embassy in China for not ordering to fill the planes bound for NZ with everybody in sight but rather rendering assistance to fellow Kiwis only?


Personally, I think if Jews stopped being so bloody precious about their religion
Jews believe that it was their faith that kept the people alive for the last 4000 years. Those were not the most user friendliest years as you said yourself. Why would not they be protective about the culture that they believe was instrumental to their survival?


tolerated questioning and criticism
Do you classify the particular ad that sparked this discussion as questioning or as criticism? There are boundaries. Besides, as I mentioned already, if the ad was mentioning anybody but Jews, there would have been a waterfall of apologies from the beehive the very next day. Just try to pull that sh!t with Maori.



and stopped automatically linking being anti-Israel to being anti-semitic,
Criticizing Israel is ok. Israelis are often quite vicious in their criticism of Israel. Singling out Israel for criticism and holding it to a different standard than everybody else is a textbook antisemitism.


The rest appears to be quite rational. Good job, Sanx! I disagree with you on oh so many levels, but at least you put rationale, rather than stereotypes and canards behind what you stand for. I respect that.

[Swoop]

I remember Culloden...
Bloody hell! You are much older than I thought!

[McJim]

McJim, you can't be serious? How can we possibly "pork" it? That would not be kosher!!! :shifty:

Yeah well I try not to be too shellfish either since it's definately not Kosher bro.

[motorbyclist]

A good joke is something funny. A poor joke is based on a racial stereotype.

oh i beg to differ ;)



Personally, I think if Jews stopped being so bloody precious about their religion, tolerated questioning and criticism, and stopped automatically linking being anti-Israel to being anti-semitic, they might find people's regard of Judaism and its followers increase. But while you have these over-the-top reactions to anything the most-touchy Jew finds slightly insulting, people's general perception of Jews will continue to fall. There is nothing more guaranteed to foster dislike of a minority than that minority's habit of thinking of themselves as being better than everyone else and automatically being deserving of respect because of who they are...

+1

[Sanx]

Have to split this in two. I'm writing too much.


Here comes a leap from issues of ethnicity to faith. Sanx, I know it is your favorite subject, but what on earth has it got to do with the issue at hand?

It's entirely relevant to the point at hand. Take the advert and replace the word "Jews" with "vegetarians" or "trade unionists" or "people who play lawn-bowls". Would anyone have even questioned it? Probably not. But when you think about it, being Jewish is a lifestyle choice, in exactly the same way that being a vegetarian is. There's no legislation protecting someone's choice of diet, music or political view (Electoral Finance Bill notwithstanding) from ridicule. But as soon as you mention somebody's religious lifestyle choice, suddenly that belief must be respected. WHY?

Being a member of a particular ethnic group is not something you can choose; you can choose to identify with that group should you so please, but you can't change your genetic make-up. Although some people like to think as much (Hitler included, as it happens) being Jewish is not a genetic condition. If it were, I'd be Jewish, and I can assure you I'm far from it.



Wrong. It was never a question of faith, always of a lineage. Short version: "if you are jewish, half-jewish, or quarter-jewish, you are in a big fat trouble".

Actually, not wrong. "Aryans" (for want of a better term) who had converted to Judaism received the same cattle-truck treatment. There weren't many of them, of course, as Judaism isn't a religion that seeks converts. But there were some, and they got gassed just the same. And Gypsies / Romanies were exterminated on the basis of their lineage. Hitler regarded the Gypsies as a race in exactly the same way he did the Jews.

Why not? Forgetting history is the first step towards repeating it, you know.

There's a difference between forgetting, and constantly reminding.


Bull. No one discounts their deaths.But consider this: Some were massacred in the framework of nazi eugenics program. Others were rounded up for being transients (i.e. leading a nomadic way of life). Only Jews were exterminated solely for having Jewish, half-Jewish, or quarter-Jewish blood. It was genocide in its strictest academic definition - an extermination of the ethnicity. Herein lies the difference.

As I said earlier, not true. Whilst homosexuals, communists and other enemies of the regime were exterminated solely because of their beliefs or practices, Gypises were targetted by their lineage. Others, such as the disabled and mentally-unwell were simply 'put-down' so as to lessen the burden on the state. However, in the numerous commerorations (wrong word, I know) of the Nazi genocide, especially those carried out in Israel, no mention is given to the other victims of Nazi persecution. Just look at the Knesset's web page entitled The Holocaust - Historical Overview (http://www.knesset.gov.il/shoah/eng/ehashoah.htm) for proof - not one solitary mention of any of the other groups murdered by the Nazis. I have personally sat through two such Yom Hashoah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_HaShoah) events, one in England and one in Auckland, and was outraged each time when the congregation was asked to remember the Jews killed by the Nazis. Not the 'victims' or 'those who perished at the hands of the Nazis' but the Jews.


Here is something I agree with. It is a bit of a travesty. Germany was defeated, so saying it out loud was easy. No one on the other hand dared mention crimes perpetrated in Russia, especially given their contribution in the war against Nazi Germany. By the way, in terms of body count, Stalin did slightly worse than Hitler, if you do not take military losses during WWII into account. For almost entire period of his reign, Stalin was an equal opportunity murderer. He did plan a mass execution of Soviet Jews, but luckily, died hours before signing the order.

I was always under the impression he managed to exceed Hitler's body count by a fair margin, but I could be wrong. But yes, with the exception of his fellow Georgians who he targetted pretty ruthlessly, race didn't play much of a part when it came to handing out the death sentences.


Does the term "Germans of Abrahamaic persuasion" ring a bell?

No - it doesn't actually, Doesn't ring Google's bell either, but your original phrase may not be entirely accurate. What are you referring to?


I am trully sorry, but are you quite sure that was the reason rather than an excuse? It is perfectly ok to attend a wedding during Shabbat, as long as you don't have to drive to get there. Nor there is a ban on attending non-Jewish weddings as long as it does not involve idol-worshiping (neither Christian, not Muslim traditions involve idol-worshiping according to Judaism).

They'd have had to drive. However, there are plenty of ways that particular rule can be bypassed, even it just means arranging a lift (with a gentile) in advance. Or even staying overnight near the venue provided you're there by sundown on Friday. However, I found it telling that their observance of the something that happens every seven days was more important than attending my wedding. Obviously one of the core tenets of Judaism - that you don't do anything that causes unnecessary hurt or suffering - took a back seat during that decision.

[Sanx]

And continued...


Wrong. Only military objects were targeted. Authorities were always notified in advance to avoid collateral damage.

Crap, as I'm sure the 200+ Jewish civilians killed when Irgun bombed the cruise ship Patria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster) in 1940, would agree. Sure, Irgun intended only to disable the ship to prevent it leaving Haifa, but it sank in fifteen minutes. I'm sure that Count Bernadotte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Folke_Bernadotte_of_Wisborg), the UN mediator assasinated by Lehi in 1946 would also agree; members of Lehi objected to his perceived pro-Arab stance during cease-fire negotiations. I'm also sure the non-combatant Arabs of Deir Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) would also agree.


Again, not so (e.g. 90% of children from Tchernobyl were rehabilitated in Israel), but yes, most of the time they just airlift their own, as any other country would. If you blame Israel for that, why don't you criticize NZ embassy in China for not ordering to fill the planes bound for NZ with everybody in sight but rather rendering assistance to fellow Kiwis only?

But the Falasha were not their own. They were Ethiopians. They weren't Israelis. What singled them out for special treatment was they were also Jews. And the children of Chernobyl came to Israel not at the behest of the Israeli government, but through a not-for-profit charity, admittedly founded by a Rabbi.


Jews believe that it was their faith that kept the people alive for the last 4000 years. Those were not the most user friendliest years as you said yourself. Why would not they be protective about the culture that they believe was instrumental to their survival?

One could equally argue that their religion and culture were the things that caused them to be persecuted also. Surely that in itself would be a good enough reason for abandoning it, or at leas studying it a little to work out what it was about the culture that so pissed off the natives. And I'd say the last 2000 years, not 4000. 2000 years ago, the Jews were very firmly based in Israel and represented the dominant belief, if not the dominant military power. In fact, one could argue that it was down to one particular fundamentalist Jew of the time, whose name has temporarily deserted me, that the world has half the religious problems it does now. Shortly after the Roman ocupation of Palestine, the Jews were undergoing something of a renaissance, with new appreciation of Greek philosophy and an appreciation of science. The old rabbinical laws were being more and more widely ignored as the local population sought out ideas and explored other beliefs. This one Jew, however, decided to collaborate with the Romans and persuaded them to enforce rabbincal law as a method of keeping the local population under control. Had he not done so, it's entirely possible that Judaism would have quietly faded from history, thus rendering Jesus's teachings irrelevant. The world could have been saved from a whole heap of hurt.


Do you classify the particular ad that sparked this discussion as questioning or as criticism? There are boundaries. Besides, as I mentioned already, if the ad was mentioning anybody but Jews, there would have been a waterfall of apologies from the beehive the very next day. Just try to pull that sh!t with Maori.

I don't regard the ad as either criticism or questioning. I regard it as a harmless joke, albeit not a very good one. I doubt the Beehive would have responded any differently had the name of any other religion appeared on the ad, but certainly their would have been an almighty shitstorm if it had said "Maori". But, as I said earlier, being Maori is a matter of ethnicity; being Jewish is a matter of choice. If you're born of Maori parents, you'll always have Maori blood, no matter how much you identify with the culture of that group. But if you're born of Jewish parents, you can choose to be Jewish (as you have, choose to abandon the entire belief structure (as I have). You can even choose to be Jewish if your parents are typical WASPs. It's all down to choice.

So unless you subscribe to Hitler's theory that Jews are a race, rather than a group of people connected solely as a result of their beliefs, being Maori and being Jewish are two very different things.



Criticizing Israel is ok. Israelis are often quite vicious in their criticism of Israel. Singling out Israel for criticism and holding it to a different standard than everybody else is a textbook antisemitism.

No no no. Criticising Israel is not being anti-semitic. It's simply criticising Israel. Criticising Israel on the basis of the religion of the ruling body may be anti-semitic, but saying "I don't like Israel because they captured territory and now treat the inhabitants badly", whilst not mentioning China's continued occupation of Tibet (for instance) does not make someone an anti-semite. Too many Jews regard an attack on Israel as an attack on their religion. They are two different things. Take this for an example: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran and former mayor of Tehran has repeatedly and vehemently expressed his wish to see Israel wiped off the map. Is that anti-Israel, anti-zionist or anti-semitic? He also makes regular charitable donations to one of the very few Jewish charity hospitals in the world, the Dr. Sapir Hospital and Charity Center, in Tehran. He also sent out the Revolutionary Guard to protect Tehran synagogues after a Tehran newspaper stirred up the local mobs by publishing a photo of Jews in an Israeli synagogue waving Israeli flags on Yom Ha'atzmaut, but saying it happened in Tehran. Are those the actions of an anti-semite, or an anti-zionist? Surely an anti-semite - someone who hates Jews and Judaism - would have happily let the angry mobs ransack the synagogues and would never dream of supporting a Jewish hospital?

[Mikkel]

I don't regard the ad as either criticism or questioning. I regard it as a harmless joke, albeit not a very good one. I doubt the Beehive would have responded any differently had the name of any other religion appeared on the ad, but certainly their would have been an almighty shitstorm if it had said "Maori". But, as I said earlier, being Maori is a matter of ethnicity; being Jewish is a matter of choice. If you're born of Maori parents, you'll always have Maori blood, no matter how much you identify with the culture of that group. But if you're born of Jewish parents, you can choose to be Jewish (as you have, choose to abandon the entire belief structure (as I have). You can even choose to be Jewish if your parents are typical WASPs. It's all down to choice.

Hmmm, I had actually gotten the impression that being Maori was solely a matter of identifying yourself with the Maori culture - not your genetic lineage. If that is indeed the case, it would be a lifestyle choice like any other...

[alanzs]

Jews make the best pastrami sandwich in the world. Check out this for a mouth watering treat: www.brentsdeli.com. Takes two hands to hold one of these beasts. Every trip back to LA, I go there for a meal. Amazing food!

I used to do a really hot Israeli girl, she could suck the chrome off a bumper and not even pause to breathe. I guess she learnt that trick in the army... :2thumbsup

[CookMySock]

But as soon as you mention somebody's religious lifestyle choice, suddenly that belief must be respected. WHY?We don't. But, its nice to, because people hold those beliefs very closely, and they mean a lot to them. It's like taking the piss out of your bike - someone may find it amusing, but done regularly its quite demoralizing.

Having said that, I don't think anyone has the right to demand that their beliefs are respected.



I'm writing too much.Yes you are. :laugh: Surely you have some cool thing to muck around with ? We can't change the internet.


DB

[Dave Lobster]

Hmmm, I had actually gotten the impression that being Maori was solely a matter of identifying yourself with the Maori culture - not your genetic lineage. If that is indeed the case, it would be a lifestyle choice like any other...

Heh heh.. when the redneck inlaws went to a 'cultural display' in Taupo earlier this year, two of the 'maoris' were white guys!!

[Mikkel]

Jews make the best pastrami sandwich in the world.

Now, let's not go bringing cannibalism into this matter too! :bash:

[Street Gerbil]

Sanx, I am really envious of your lifestyle. I really cannot afford spending that much time on those essays. And trust me, not everything in this world has something to do with religion. You know, even Freud sometimes had those ridiculous dreams that do not mean a damn thing!



...I'm sure the 200+ Jewish civilians killed when Irgun bombed the cruise ship Patria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster) in 1940, would agree.

It was an accident (or sloppy job). It was not planned to happen this way and just shows the tendency of best laid schemes of mice and men to go to the dogs at the worst possible moment. And that if you fuck around with explosives, bad things happen. It served no benefit for the underground movement (I think it was Haganah, rather than Irgun, but I may be wrong on that one) to get all those folks killed.


Count Bernadotte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Folke_Bernadotte_of_Wisborg), the UN mediator assasinated by Lehi in 1946 would also agree; members of Lehi objected to his perceived pro-Arab stance during cease-fire negotiations.

Pardon my french, but Mr. Beradotte was an asshole. He had it coming, although personally I think assassination of bad guys has a downside of turning them into martyrs.


I'm also sure the non-combatant Arabs of Deir Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre) would also agree.

I bet you believe in 'massacre of "Jeningrad" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin)' too, do you? The Israeli side naively hoped that an imaginary massacre and a ridiculously inflated body count would serve as a deterrent.



But the Falasha were not their own. They were Ethiopians. They weren't Israelis. What singled them out for special treatment was they were also Jews.
Yes. Israel prides itself as being the only safe haven in the world for Jewish people. What's wrong with that?



Shortly after the Roman ocupation of Palestine, the Jews were undergoing something of a renaissance, with new appreciation of Greek philosophy and an appreciation of science. The old rabbinical laws were being more and more widely ignored as the local population sought out ideas and explored other beliefs. This one Jew, however, decided to collaborate with the Romans and persuaded them to enforce rabbincal law as a method of keeping the local population under control. Had he not done so, it's entirely possible that Judaism would have quietly faded from history, thus rendering Jesus's teachings irrelevant. The world could have been saved from a whole heap of hurt.
Wow! I should have known where you are heading. Do you realize that nature abhors vacuum? Granted, if Romans had succeeded in eradicating Judaism, Jews would have disappeared, thus saving KB from this boring and protracted discussion, but what all the people who in our reality chose to become Christians, would have worshiped? They would not have turned into atheists just because Jesus missed the train, you know. And worse yet, if not for Christians, who would have opposed Muslims in Iberia? How do you know that hellenization of Jews would have prevented pain instead of making it worse?



So unless you subscribe to Hitler's theory that Jews are a race, rather than a group of people connected solely as a result of their beliefs,
Ok, so when one is being born to a Jewish mom and Jewish dad, what does it make him/her? A Maori? In your previous posting you mentioned Sephards and Ashquenazis. Are they mythical creatures of Hitler's propaganda machine? What I can agree with is if you are Maori, you are Maori for life, but according to Jewish beliefs, if you worship idols you cease being Jewish. So don't be in such a hurry, Sanx. Have you worshiped at the altar of Moloch lately? Any child sacrifices? Wicca? For all I know you are still a Jewish lad yourself, just may be a bit misguided one :chase: :-))))))))





No no no. Criticising Israel is not being anti-semitic.
[...]
Too many Jews regard an attack on Israel as an attack on their religion.
This article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism) in Wikipedia is highly enlightening on this matter.



Take this for an example: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran and former mayor of Tehran...
I have no knowledge of his motives. It is entirely possible that he is a teddybear and has to put up a show to keep everybody happy as a part of job description. I have no idea. Nor do you, right? But it is said that every antisemite has a lap jew.

[Street Gerbil]

Now, let's not go bringing cannibalism into this matter too! :bash:
I have to admit the same thing crossed (circled) my mind too...

[Sanx]

Sanx, I am really envious of your lifestyle. I really cannot afford spending that much time on those essays. And trust me, not everything in this world has something to do with religion. You know, even Freud sometimes had those ridiculous dreams that do not mean a damn thing!

My wife's in Auckland. I'm in Brisbane, and I'm sharing a flat with a couch potato whose two hobbies are drinking and golf. What else am I meant to do? :cool:


It was an accident (or sloppy job). It was not planned to happen this way and just shows the tendency of best laid schemes of mice and men to go to the dogs at the worst possible moment. And that if you fuck around with explosives, bad things happen. It served no benefit for the underground movement (I think it was Haganah, rather than Irgun, but I may be wrong on that one) to get all those folks killed.

Yes - you're right. It was Haganah. But regardless of which particular Jewish terrorist organisation it was, claiming "Yes, sorry m'lud, we only meant to prevent the ship leaving the harbour. Accidents happen. Whatcha gonna do?" doesn't wash as a valid defence.


Pardon my french, but Mr. Beradotte was an asshole. He had it coming, although personally I think assassination of bad guys has a downside of turning them into martyrs.

So it's OK to assassinate anyone you don't agree with? Come on... But calling a diplomat who secured the release of 15,000 (including between 6,500 and 11,000 Jews, apparently, though the margin of error in those figures is a little bit suspect) prisoners in Nazi concentration camps an asshole is a bit rich...


I bet you believe in 'massacre of "Jeningrad" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin)' too, do you? The Israeli side naively hoped that an imaginary massacre and a ridiculously inflated body count would serve as a deterrent.

I believe that something pretty bad happened there, but I imagine the true situation lies somewhere between what's claimed by both sides. Ariel Sharon certainly got his hands dirty though. Incidentally, you might be interested to know that the Deir Yassin incident was condemned by a number of groups, including Haganah themselves...


Yes. Israel prides itself as being the only safe haven in the world for Jewish people. What's wrong with that?

Nothing in particular...


Wow! I should have known where you are heading. Do you realize that nature abhors vacuum? Granted, if Romans had succeeded in eradicating Judaism, Jews would have disappeared, thus saving KB from this boring and protracted discussion, but what all the people who in our reality chose to become Christians, would have worshiped? They would not have turned into atheists just because Jesus missed the train, you know. And worse yet, if not for Christians, who would have opposed Muslims in Iberia? How do you know that hellenization of Jews would have prevented pain instead of making it worse?

Judah the Macabee. It wasn't him, but some relation or compatriot. Name still escapes me ... And why assume that there had to be an alternative something to worship? And if there hadn't have been Christianity and Judaism to rail against, who knows if there would have been Islam?


Ok, so when one is being born to a Jewish mom and Jewish dad, what does it make him/her? ...

It makes them a child of Jewish parents. Nothing more, nothing less.


In your previous posting you mentioned Sephards and Ashquenazis. Are they mythical creatures of Hitler's propaganda machine?

What are you on about? You're not making much sense in this paragraph... Ashkenazi and Sephardi are simply sects of Judaism (as are the Falasha), not races of people. In fact, the probably have more of a claim to be a race than "the Jews" simply because of the Jewish stigma against marrying out will have led to chronic inbreeding and therefore a very slight departure from the genetic average of the local population.


What I can agree with is if you are Maori, you are Maori for life, but according to Jewish beliefs, if you worship idols you cease being Jewish. So don't be in such a hurry, Sanx. Have you worshiped at the altar of Moloch lately? Any child sacrifices? Wicca? For all I know you are still a Jewish lad yourself, just may be a bit misguided one :chase: :-))))))))

No, all out of children to sacrifice this week... Well, Palestinian ones anyway. Need some blood to make some hamentashen. And white or Islander children don't taste the same.

But no - I don't need to worship anything - idol or otherwise - to happily claim I'm not Jewish. Being Jewish is a matter of belief, and I don't believe. Just because my mother's Jewish (she married out), does not automatically make me believe as well. She'd certainly like it to be the case, but she's reluctantly accepted I'm old and ugly enough to make up my own mind. But I'm certainly not misguided.


I have no knowledge of his motives. It is entirely possible that he is a teddybear and has to put up a show to keep everybody happy as a part of job description. I have no idea. Nor do you, right? But it is said that every antisemite has a lap jew.

That's the wierd thing; he made the same donations when he was merely the mayor of Tehran, and not on the world stage. Could it just be that he has made the distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism, and doesn't care that many (including, of course, many of the people he's preaching to) fail to recognise the distinction.

[Winston001]

Good stuff Sanx and Gerbil, saved me a lot of typing. At least you guys have a global and historical perspective, most posters here have no conception of anti-Semitism. Jewish people aren't noticed in NZ and are pretty safe.

Couple of points:

1. Being Jewish is both racial and religious. That is hard for us to get our heads around and I cannot think of another ethnic group it applies to - but that's the way it is. Of course a jewish person can walk away from both if they choose - provided the local population let him.

2. Jewish people have maintained racial purity far above any other population group over 2000 years. It's quite remarkable and demonstrated by DNA. Unfortunately, as Sanx says, as a group Jewish people have been insular and outsiders view them with suspicion. Unfair as it may be, this lies at the heart of anti-Semitic prejudice.

[imdying]

Jews make the best pastrami sandwich in the world.They're a smart people alright... someone mentioned that the Intel P4 was developed by Israeli workers, well, the Core series of CPUs which replaced them was designed by them too!

They also do a mighty impressive job of defending their home given their limited resources. They've never admitted to to having nuclear weapons, but we're all going to enjoy watching them turn the rag heads into glass soon enough :yes:

[Hitcher]

They also do a mighty impressive job of defending their home given their limited resources.

Most countries that size could do a similar job, given preferential arms deals from the USA and unlimited funds.

[PirateJafa]

They're a smart people alright... someone mentioned that the Intel P4 was developed by Israeli workers, well, the Core series of CPUs which replaced them was designed by them too!

[insert large list of things not invented by Israelis here]

By that logic, the Romans were pretty smart because they invented the trireme despite the fact that the framework for that allowed the triremes to first be constructed had been built up over centuries by other races and civilisations.

Saying the Israelis are smart because they they developed the P4 chip ignores all the "smart" people who developed metallurgy, electricity, the first computers and all the other prerequisites that allowed the Intel P4 chip to be designed.

(Yes, technically speaking the Romans were not the first to build triremes, but since noone knows their exact origin, I'm using the Romans to put my point across rather than splitting hairs. Bah.)


They also do a mighty impressive job of defending their home given their limited resources. They've never admitted to to having nuclear weapons, but we're all going to enjoy watching them turn the rag heads into glass soon enough :yes:

Yes. Limited resources being years of support from the most technologically advanced military superpower in the world. Yeeees. I can see that.

[imdying]

Most countries that size could do a similar job, given preferential arms deals from the USA and unlimited funds.No, NZ is of a similar size, and we'd piss it all away saving lepers, give it to the Maoris under some sort of customary rights deal, or fuck it up in any one of a number of other ways. Most countries couldn't organise a fuck in a brothel, let alone defending their borders on all sides from hostile scarabs and yet still producing worthy advancements in a variety of fields.



Yes. Limited resources being years of support from the most technologically advanced military superpower in the world. Yeeees. I can see that.Yes, because it's all about teh weapons...

[James Deuce]

I've thought about this a lot and I have come to a decision:

I shall eat more bacon.

[Mikkel]

Stay away from the Jew Pastrami!

[Wally Simmonds]

Yes, because it's all about teh weapons...

And money, doctrines, intelligence, support at the UN

[pete376403]

If the Jews are so smart, how come they spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness then settled on the only piece of the middle east without oil?:lol:

[Street Gerbil]

If the Jews are so smart, how come they spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness then settled on the only piece of the middle east without oil?:lol:

This is one of the biggest mysteries of the ancient world. I do believe that that G-d really meant to give Moses the land of Canada, not Canaan. Moses was asked by G-d to which country he would like to take the children of Israel. Moses was a stutterer and he wanted to say Canada, but it came out as Ca-ca-ca-na-na-na. So God thought he meant Canaan and sent the children of Israel there. And so, instead of being US of A's next door neighbors, we ended up in the Middle Eastern blight, surrounded by sand and Arabs and with no oil well in sight...

[pete376403]

2. Jewish people have maintained racial purity far above any other population group over 2000 years. It's quite remarkable and demonstrated by DNA. .

There is a Jewish gene? Then there must be a catholic or protestant gene also?
An atheiest gene or just a lack of one?

[alanzs]

Now, let's not go bringing cannibalism into this matter too! :bash:

Properly sliced on rye bread, with mustard, slice of swiss cheese, little bit of cole slaw, DAMN, can't be beat! :gob:

[alanzs]

Originally Posted by Winston001 View Post
2. Jewish people have maintained racial purity far above any other population group over 2000 years. It's quite remarkable and demonstrated by DNA. .


It would be 5768 years. The Christian calendar is 2008 years old, the Jewish calendar is 5768 years old... :Oops:

[MisterD]

If the Jews are so smart, how come they spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness then settled on the only piece of the middle east without oil?:lol:

Yeah, they really got stung on the milk and honey futures market eh.

[SpankMe]

:shutup: :Pokey:

[Winston001]

It would be 5768 years. The Christian calendar is 2008 years old, the Jewish calendar is 5768 years old... :Oops:

Mmmm The purity has been maintained since the Diaspora which, if we are to be accurate, began about 800BC, but really got underway when the Romans suppressed the Jewish people after 66AD. They were kicked out of Palestine and that's where today's Polish and Russian Jewish populations originated from.

Its kinda remarkable after all that time that this ethnic group has kept marrying and having children within the group. Maori by comparison are highly diluted.

Ain't life interesting!!

[McJim]

Its kinda remarkable after all that time that this ethnic group has kept marrying and having children within the group. Maori by comparison are highly diluted.

Ain't life interesting!!
So is the banjo a Jewish invention then? :rofl:

[pete376403]

Mmmm The purity has been maintained since the Diaspora which, if we are to be accurate, began about 800BC, but really got underway when the Romans suppressed the Jewish people after 66AD. They were kicked out of Palestine and that's where today's Polish and Russian Jewish populations originated from.

Its kinda remarkable after all that time that this ethnic group has kept marrying and having children within the group. Maori by comparison are highly diluted.

Ain't life interesting!!
I find it a bit remarkable that a discussion about Jews should be bringing up "ethnic purity" given that the nazis also used the same thing (but *aryan* ethnic purity) as one reason for the holocaust (TM).
And you're suggesting the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia are ethnically the same as a EuroJew from Russia or Poland? Or maybe there are different kinds of Jew? Then it must be a religion, not a race, just as there are different kinds of catholic, prod, etc.

[Sanx]

I find it a bit remarkable that a discussion about Jews should be bringing up "ethnic purity" given that the nazis also used the same thing (but *aryan* ethnic purity) as one reason for the holocaust (TM).
And you're suggesting the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia are ethnically the same as a EuroJew from Russia or Poland? Or maybe there are different kinds of Jew? Then it must be a religion, not a race, just as there are different kinds of catholic, prod, etc.

The Polish / Russian / Lithuanian Jews are known as Ashkenazi Jews do have a remarkable degree of genetic similarity. Ethiopian Jews, the Falasha, and those Jews that originated from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsular - Sephardi Jews - do not share this same genetic prevalence.

Of course, this genetic purity is often a sign of chronic inbreeding, which can lead to all sorts of interesting hereditary diseases. Tay-Sachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_Disease) disease is almost always limited to someone of Ashkenazi descent, and there are other hereditary diseases which are markedly more prevalent in Ashkenazis. Canavan Disease, which causes a build-up of a toxic substance in the brain, and Gaucher Disease, which causes an enzyme to be missing resulting in lipid build-up within the body, are two such examples.

[Street Gerbil]

I find it a bit remarkable that a discussion about Jews should be bringing up "ethnic purity" given that the nazis also used the same thing (but *aryan* ethnic purity) as one reason for the holocaust (TM).
And you're suggesting the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia are ethnically the same as a EuroJew from Russia or Poland? Or maybe there are different kinds of Jew? Then it must be a religion, not a race, just as there are different kinds of catholic, prod, etc.

As Winston mentioned earlier, it is both, mainly, I think, because one can be Jewish, being born to a Jewish mother, or become Jewish by conversion.
You are right, by the way, stating that Falashmurah i.e. Ethiopian Jews are mainly Jewish by conversion, as explained in this article (http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html), and yes, they are genetically different from the rest of otherwise fairly uniform Jewish population. I didn't know that. Live and learn.

Research into genetics is not an issue of ethnic "purity" per see but rather whether the Diaspora Jews have the same common ancestors and share the same roots or whether it is just a collection of "nutcases, sharing the same imaginary friend", as some of our forum members would express it.
This article (http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp)offers a good insight into the matter.
Unfortunately, apart from historical and ethnological value, this research also has an important practical application, because having a unique genetic makeup means having unique genetic diseases, including such pretties, as Tay-Sachs.

EDIT----
Sepharadim i.e. Jews booted from Spain in 15th century, may look very different from Asquenazim, but they do share many traits suggesting common ancestry, such as (enjoy!) a nasty habit of answering questions with questions, two Jews having 3 opinions, and as the joke goes, "this temple where I will pray, that, where I won't pray, and another one won't even look at and it may burn for all I care".

[fridayflash]

It isn't racist at all. Jewism (or whatever they want to fucking call it) is a religion, not a race.

Remember.. It's shite being Scottish. (Scotch is something you do an egg :niceone:)
too troo! 20 million russian christians 20MILLION!!!!!!
died at the hands of stalin,yet ive never taken it personaly

[fridayflash]

I wasn't aware there was a swastika ascii character - the tag kinda suggests it though.



'Only' 9-11 million according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust).

That is of course - if holocaust indeed ever happened :rolleyes:
9-11??? it used to be 6million?

[Street Gerbil]

too troo! 20 million russian christians 20MILLION!!!!!!
died at the hands of stalin,yet ive never taken it personaly
Actually, for the most part, Stalin was an equal opportunity murderer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#Purges_and_deportations). He did plan his personal "solution to the Jewish problem" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot), but luckily, kicked the bucket hours before signing the order.