New biofuel petrol

[fergie]

just heard the govt is planning on changing the composition of petrol to keep the greenies happy. i think they are going to increase the amount of ethanol( i could be wrong here) up to 10%

I wonder how this will affect our engines? hell i've only just come to grips with putting 96 in my bike for the winter!

cheers

ferg

[bungbung]

Ferg,

Using 96 for Winter, is that for easier starting?
I am sure I saw a thread about 91 octane for that same problem.

:confused:

[bluninja]

With all that extra ethanol, will bikes be able to hold their line through corners?:D

TTFN

[fergie]

yea bung, i was tied up with previous threads re octane rating, my bike was hard of starting when running 91 so on the advice of this forum changed to 96 and that was the end of my problems.

as for the ethanol subject, it was an item on the news last night and i was wondering how or if it would affect m/c engines, the report said that late model cars would be ok ,but not sure if older vehicles will be ok.

ferg

[marty]

i was running my gixxer 400 on 91 but it was just running rough, stalling at lights etc etc. i switched to 96 and haven't had any trouble since - it's actually cheaper to run. there are some excellent web pages on ethanol mixing with petrol - i tried tolulene - 1 litre of in 10 of petrol (it's a UK thing) bike runs like it's on rocket fuel! (true octane of about 105) i'm picking ethanol will do the same, as it has a true octane rating of around 130. have a look here.....

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/

or here....

http://www.environmentalchoice.ca/company.cfm?group=18&cat=36

the second site talks about mixing petrol and ethanol. just search the net - there is heaps of quality research going on out there.

as long as it means we can still drink jack daniels instead of sticking it in our bikes........

[NZred]

YES,.. bungbung.. apparently your Fire Storm should be on 96' .. the Honda agents say.

but it is relatively low compression .. :rolleyes: .. mine is on 91'.. and not had any worries.. SO FAR .. :niceone:

[NZred]

I think the USA fuel is ethanol based,.. and if so.. gives a nice clean ex-pipe.

I think that it has to be better than this kero mix oily rubbish that we have now. :niceone:

[What?]

Originally posted by marty
i tried tolulene - 1 litre of in 10 of petrol (it's a UK thing) bike runs like it's on rocket fuel! (true octane of about 105) i'm picking ethanol will do the same, as it has a true octane rating of around 130. ........

When unleaded 96 happened here there was outcry about its poor quality, and the fact that huge levels of toluene had been used to boost the octane rating (RON only). This has since been reduced as toluene is very toxic stuff; known carcinogen etc etc. Be aware that if you are adding it to your fuel you are exposing yourself (and others) to a serious health risk.

And there endeth todays pontification:done:

[Lou Girardin]

It sounds like the ethanol blend will be an extra option over regular and 96. They hate it in the US. It has a lower energy content than normal fuel, so you get less power and higher consumption.
Lou

[What?]

Yeah - think about speedway bikes. They burn alcohol and run HUGE comperession ratios to do it..

[wkid_one]

is this 'Gasahol' - as if it is - most bike manuals have warnings about this stuff!!
There are two types of Gasahol - gasonline containing ethanol and that containing methanol.  Gashol containing ethanol can be used IF the content does not exceed 10%.  Methanol based is not recommended.

From Yam and Honda's manuals

So you should be okay - performance wise??

 

 

[Defiant]

Hey guys....Im new to the site....but i have just returned to NZ after an 8year stay in Oz......just bought my firestorm back with me.....I ahve been running it on the envro-fuel over there and thats the same mix as that the gov is bringing into effect here.....the bike LOVES it runs like a rocket and has heaps more response.....just make sure you dont have crap fuel lines it does have a tendancy to eat thru the cheep stuff if its old.....cheers

[0arbreaka]

dead thread mate

[BMW]

The BMW runs better on 96 even though it has been re programmed to run NZ fuel. I know this as it was back firing alot till they re flashed the chip.

I wonder if they need to do it again?!

[merv]

Old habits die hard I see you are all still calling it 96 when the pumps now say 95.

Have only tried the E10 in Aus with a rental car (Toyota Aurion) coz it was cheaper, the car had a sticker on it saying it was OK so I used it and noticed no difference.

[Freebird]

Hi Merv,
Saw you no the train on Monday night, was not sure it was you till you got up to get off. Sorry to the point 95, 96 and 98 are all available depending on the supplier. :yes:

[Bass]

Yeah - think about speedway bikes. They burn alcohol and run HUGE comperession ratios to do it..
You got that right but back to front - they run big compression ratios because methanol has an octane rating of about 130 and so they can.

[avgas]

You got that right but back to front - they run big compression ratios because methanol has an octane rating of about 130 and so they can.
When are we getting 104 here (as in at the servo)? that stuff is fantastic.

[merv]

Sorry to the point 95, 96 and 98 are all available depending on the supplier. :yes:

You sure, I thought it was a Marsden Point thing that all 96 became 95 while 91 is still available and some 98, or do Gull or someone still do a 96? Certainly the big 3 don't.

[klingon]

Not quite Ferg - Gull is offering a 10% ethanol mix as an option at some of their outlets (two in Auckland, also maybe in Wellington?). Nothing really to do with the government, or the 'greenies', except that the E10 does have a much lower rate of carbon emissions so is a good thing in that respect. Most late model Japanese / Euro cars will run it with no problem - it is commonly available in lots of countries already. For other cars check out the AA website - they are on a bit of a mission to get clarity about the risks / benefits for 'older' vehicles. I haven't a clue about its suitability for bikes, so will be sticking to 95 / 98 for the SV. Keep the shiny side up...

[DISCLAIMER: This post was made by an SV1000 rider who was accidentally logged in as me. I know nothing about ethanol as a fuel! - klingon]


just heard the govt is planning on changing the composition of petrol to keep the greenies happy. i think they are going to increase the amount of ethanol( i could be wrong here) up to 10%



cheers

ferg

[davereid]

Just don't breathe anywhere near a vehicle using ethanol as a fuel.

When ethanol is burned, it emits acetylaldehide — considered a probable human carcinogen by the EPA.

And don't count on it saving the planet, as another byproduct is peroxyacetyl nitrate, which damages plants...

Of course you could catch the bus.. but it produces twice the carbon as your car.

Or you could walk, but if you use steak as a meal to provide your fuel it produces 4 times the carbon emmisions of using your car for the same trip.

Its not easy being green.

[NSR-Dan]

im working for honda now (that accord euro aunty helen filled up is in our show room) and as far as i know there is no problem with the E10 fuel in the engine but its the fuel lines that suffer as ethanol is corosive to rubber and its only the new cars with teflon fuel lines seals etc that can use it.

any way its not to much different in price, (i think its 3c cheaper than regular 98 but still more expensive than 96)

at the end of the day its a politicle ploy that its got less CO2 emissions. but the forget to tell us about the other harmful gasses that are emitted.

[Pancakes]

If they were really serious and not just building up to the election (yep, that bullshit time again folks!) They would have solar and wind farms to turn water into Hydrogen (about 140 octane for those that care) and have several harbours around the country dammed up with turbines in them so the tides could be used to power compressors for the gas. This would mean hydrogen fuel cells in electric cars or Hydrogen engines (have seen a hydrogen rotary, one gas valve for the Hydrogen and something like a normal injector for water mist. If you use straight gas it burns too fast, almost like detonation. The gas/water mix uses the gas to turn the water to steam and makes it all run like an internal combustion steam engine with a great elastic power stroke).

None of our present vehicles would run, the only real solution to that would be to have parts made elsewhere (counties with ore deposits) and assembled here. Heaps of new jobs for NZ and the only real clean fuel there is as Hydrogen burns to leave water and oxygen traces. No waste is produced from the compression part of the process either.

Pity telling people that their beloved vehicles have to go out the window to be replaced by one or two models (at the start anyway) of Govt built hydrogen cars and someone in Parliment would have to find the balls to tell the oil co's their profits in this country will be slashed!

PS, I'm serious about this stuff but know peoples ego's won't make the sacrifice needed to see perfect clean fuel take off.

[rwh]

If they were really serious and not just building up to the election (yep, that bullshit time again folks!) They would have solar and wind farms to turn water into Hydrogen
I'm not convinced you could realistically fit enough solar and wind power stations in NZ to power our vehicle fleet ... possibly workable (solar) in Australia or Africa though?


and have several harbours around the country dammed up with turbines in them so the tides could be used to power compressors for the gas.
I've heard there are problems with extracting tidal energy - most of the water movement is 'slosh', so that when you start damping it by extracting the energy, it doesn't go nearly as far as it otherwise would, and there's bugger all left to extract. Plus of course you probably destroy a bunch of wetlands and other environments that rely on either or both the changing level and the changing salinity of the water.


This would mean hydrogen fuel cells in electric cars or Hydrogen engines (have seen a hydrogen rotary, one gas valve for the Hydrogen and something like a normal injector for water mist. If you use straight gas it burns too fast, almost like detonation. The gas/water mix uses the gas to turn the water to steam and makes it all run like an internal combustion steam engine with a great elastic power stroke).

None of our present vehicles would run, the only real solution to that would be to have parts made elsewhere (counties with ore deposits) and assembled here. Heaps of new jobs for NZ and the only real clean fuel there is as Hydrogen burns to leave water and oxygen traces. No waste is produced from the compression part of the process either.

Pity telling people that their beloved vehicles have to go out the window to be replaced by one or two models (at the start anyway) of Govt built hydrogen cars

Better and cheaper in the interim perhaps to build a few models of engine with more wonderful opportunities for engineering shops to offer mounting kits for various existing cars? You could also melt down those old engines to build more new ones. Otherwise you're replacing exhaust pollution with dead-vehicle pollution :-(


PS, I'm serious about this stuff but know peoples ego's won't make the sacrifice needed to see perfect clean fuel take off.

Unfortunately I think clean fuel (while a worthy challenge) is only a small part of a huge problem. Better of course would be to change our lifestyles so we don't need to burn the stuff at all - work closer to home and walk there, travel or ship goods internationally by sailing ship if at all, etc etc.

I certainly have large internal conflicts on my ideas of going racing - thinking of all that wasted fuel and piles of useless tyres :(

My feeling is the world is somewhat screwed without a large reduction in population - just waiting to see how painful that is :(

Richard

[Pancakes]

Yeah rwh,

Whatever the answer is I don't think it will be able to produce the enery needed to sustain our current lifestyles, pity governments are voted in and telling people they are gonna have to pay more for a less comfortable life doesn't get many votes eh?

Reversing tidal area's doesn't have to ruin that area (ie, salmon flows an industry works alongside power generation dams in Canada) but the state the world is in now we may just have to pick some spots to get sacrificed for the greater good.

Not just population size but standards of living too, I assume people reading this may have environmental intersests. "Collapse" by Jared Diamond is an entertaining and realistic view of todays environmantal situation of the global village we live in, I highly reccomend a visit to the library to get that or any of his other books.

[avgas]

Just don't breathe anywhere near a vehicle using ethanol as a fuel.

When ethanol is burned, it emits acetylaldehide — considered a probable human carcinogen by the EPA.

And don't count on it saving the planet, as another byproduct is peroxyacetyl nitrate, which damages plants...

Of course you could catch the bus.. but it produces twice the carbon as your car.

Or you could walk, but if you use steak as a meal to provide your fuel it produces 4 times the carbon emmisions of using your car for the same trip.

Its not easy being green.
When was carbon bad? It must be easy being green - as 4th form science exam tells you that all things living are carbon based. So if you state that carbon is bad - 4th form science out the window.
Im not a big chemisty person, but as someone who has actually evaluated the whole greenhouse things i do see alot of marketing going on this 'carbon' thing.
Don't even get me started on dioxide and monoxide. As we all know only 1 of these actually is unatural.

[rwh]

"Collapse" by Jared Diamond is an entertaining and realistic view of todays environmantal situation of the global village we live in, I highly reccomend a visit to the library to get that or any of his other books.

Ha! I'm nearly finished it right now (second time through). Recently finished rereading "Guns, Germs and Steel", too.

Good reading all right - I'll second the recommendation. Was thinking of making it myself in that last post :)

Richard

[rwh]

When was carbon bad? It must be easy being green - as 4th form science exam tells you that all things living are carbon based. So if you state that carbon is bad - 4th form science out the window.
Im not a big chemisty person, but as someone who has actually evaluated the whole greenhouse things i do see alot of marketing going on this 'carbon' thing.
Don't even get me started on dioxide and monoxide. As we all know only 1 of these actually is unatural.

Both occur naturally; both occur unnaturally. And like all things, they're only bad when the levels are too high/low.

Richard

[What?]

You got that right but back to front - they run big compression ratios because methanol has an octane rating of about 130 and so they can.

True - it's a sort of chicken-and-egg argument.
I note that Gull are saying the E10 blend is more suitable to high-compresssion engines, and those that are designed to run on 91RON petrol should stay with it.

[avgas]

I got some in the bike, its nice.
Not mega super horsepower or anything - just nice.
Just had to tweak the carbs a little and i was away.
May be ok on EFI bikes if they have a oxy sensor or a PC3.
Would be better if it was a 80/20 mix though. 90/10 is almost a waste of time.

[speedpro]

Methanol and probably Ethanol, need to run a lot richer mixture. At only 10% it isn't much of a problem, the engine will only end up a tiny bit leaner with no modification. I would like to know the results of some dyno runs with and without adjustments for both fuels.

[scumdog]

My feeling is the world is somewhat screwed without a large reduction in population - just waiting to see how painful that is :(

Richard

You said a mouthful there.
The way things are going the world is going to be overpopulated by a dumber population on a meagre income with Lordy-knows what food/water quality.

[Pancakes]

Methanol and probably Ethanol, need to run a lot richer mixture. At only 10% it isn't much of a problem, the engine will only end up a tiny bit leaner with no modification. I would like to know the results of some dyno runs with and without adjustments for both fuels.

Thats about it there a! Just chuck a new fuel in and don't change anything else. If the engine was at optimum tune for the previous fuel sure thing it won't like the new stuff wether it's "better" or not. Like airfilters, people saying an aftermarket cheapie gives more power, maybe on a bike that was rich to start with but wouldn't it be better to tune the bike and have good clean air in too?

[Sanx]

You said a mouthful there.
The way things are going the world is going to be overpopulated by a dumber population on a meagre income with Lordy-knows what food/water quality.

Don't worry - the way the AIDS epidemic in Africa and South America is going, there'll be plenty of room. When you have people like Thabo Mbeki (president of South Africa) claiming there's no such thing as AIDS, and if there was such a thing as AIDS, it isn't spread by sexual intercourse, you do have to wonder about the long-term survival of the population.

[avgas]

Thats about it there a! Just chuck a new fuel in and don't change anything else. If the engine was at optimum tune for the previous fuel sure thing it won't like the new stuff wether it's "better" or not. Like airfilters, people saying an aftermarket cheapie gives more power, maybe on a bike that was rich to start with but wouldn't it be better to tune the bike and have good clean air in too?
Yeh but in saying that some engines of today are built like brick shithouses. I had the great fortune of having a 91 corona with 290,000k's on the clock. I didnt service it for a period of 6 years, i clocked up about 40,000ks on it in that period and it never missed a beat. (it was my piss poor attempt to see how good the engines were). Thrashed the crap out of that car and the chassis failed before the engine did (so i sold it to someone for $600 and its still going in his possession).
Likewise i would put money down that there are CB/GSX/XR/KDX owners out there with the same results.
I'm a big fan of regular services - but in saying that engines of today still go strong when they are 'out-of-tune'.
An example i have is a RG150 i had. This was my mini-monster bike - dyno'd and my pride of joy.
Out of tune, on the dyno she would wack out about 20kW
tuned on the dyno, about 22-24kW
At the end of the day it was the cheap rubbish malaysian oil pump that failed, it failed to show any wear when any services were done. It just happened.
Right now i know the FZ needs a service, but i also know it launches like a motherfucker if i opened up. I'd say a 20-30hp drop max.

[Pancakes]

Oi I fully agree AVgas! Hard to kill most of the Toyota or Nissan product line in std tune especially a! I've had some shitters that were just stupidly reliable. I meant more in terms of judging a fuel by it's power output. It would need to be tested in an engine that was setup for that fuel for the test to be fair, extreme example would be diesel in a petrol car, doesn't work but both are great fuels. Look at engines like the LS1, rich as straight off the showroom floor, cost a few HP but cheaper in warranties tho.

[jazbug5]

So are are we sure that biofuels are all that green (http://www.orangutan.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=176&Itemid=10)?

[mbazza]

My concern is that producing biofuels uses more energy to make them than we presently use with starndard fuels. Surely the major point is to use less energy, not more of it! Just a thought. (I know about sustainability and all that. ) Cheers.

[scumdog]

My concern is that producing biofuels uses more energy to make them than we presently use with starndard fuels. Surely the major point is to use less energy, not more of it! Just a thought. (I know about sustainability and all that. ) Cheers.


Troo dat.
The fossil fuel is already there waiting to be refined.
The 'clean' fuel has to be grown and harvested before being processed using machines that burn fuel....

[Coldrider]

Here's a paper I on what big brother think of biofuels, & how us "Hoons" (official speak) will react.

http://www.eeca.govt.nz/eeca-library/renewable-energy/biofuels/report/umr-biofuels-research-study-05.pdf

[delusionz]

Yeah, I happened to be somewhere in Kingsland when I hit my reserve, So I stop at Gull expecting 95 but instead was faced with 91 and E10. I sat there puzzled as to what to do knowing my fuel lines are made of rubber and alcohol eats rubber so I ended up adding a couple splashes of 91 just to make it to a Caltex to fill up 95.


So how does the E10 run? Is it safe to put in my Ninja 250?