Safety and race-field size

[Clivoris]

Some of you may not be aware that I am a member of the Victoria MC committee. We have a policy of restricting the size of race fields at Manfield to 35, in an effort to restrict the chaos and carnage, i.e. make things as safe as we can. This thread is not being started on behalf of the Victoria MC, it is an attempt to do some of my thinking online and take advantage of the KB membership to get some feedback.

Many of you will be aware that the Actrix Winter Series is growing like Jack's stalk of beans. This means that in some of the heavily subscribed races it is likely that some racers will not qualify in the top 35. The supplementary regulations state that "Non qualifying riders will not be moved into an alternative class. Appeals at Clerk's discretion." In practice, this has not often been necessary, as despite 40 bikes being entered there are the inevitably riders who end up not being able to make the meeting, and those who have dnfs on the day. When required, the Clerk has found space for people.

Is there anyone out there in cyberland who has any thoughts about how we might manage the over-subscription?

The reality is that much of it is due to the ease of cross-entry for a paltry $10. F2 into F1, Post Classic Senior into F1, Many F3 400s into Pre 89, F3 into F2 etc. It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries? Is there another fairer solution that eludes me? Is it just tough titties if you don't qualify and you should have entered Clubmans? Should we just stop accepting entries once we get to 35? It might mean the entries get in nice and early.

Another pressure point is the necessity of running multiple classes together in the one race because of limited time. Post classic senior, junior, pre82 and pre89 all together; F3 and pro twins. How can we accomodate all our classes in a one day meeting? A suggestion that rears it's head every now and then, is dropping one of the less full classes. Bags not me to make that decision. All the classes are growing and valid. Another suggestion has been to have Super Motards and maybe Street Stocks running on the Manfield extension at the same time as the rest of the meeting. This would have it's logistical and other challenges but it is possible. We would need to have someone who is keen on growing motard racing step up and explore this. Are you there?

What about 2 day meetings? Probably more expense and more difficult for racers, supporters and volunteers in our time poor world.

I fully support the practice of restricting field size. But what would be the risk if we increased the field sizes? If we allowed up to 40 bikes, if they qualify within 115% of fastest qualifier; would this be any more risky than the top 35 qualifiers regardless of lap-time? As a past volunteer, I can testify to the increased sense of chaos that happens with large fields at club racing.

Once again, I am pushing this out there to harvest some ideas. This may or may not go back to the committee for discussion, but I would like to ensure that we are thinking of options and solutions. Please remember that we are all unpaid volunteers, barely coping with the organising of this series as it is. Any extra demand on time or personal resources, is likely to require more people on board.

[Shaun]

Eliminate 600 from the SB class, OR at least eliminate enough 600 bikes, to allow all sb to try and Qualify

You could elimnate 600 riders based on the riding history?

I know this is not a big help, but a thought at least

[Shaun]

18 TRUE SB entered in the class! Sorry 600 riders, back to you own class now maybe?

Guess this groth is good for the sport though, try to be positive about the growth

I also noted there is a TZ125 entered in the Derik Hill class? Should that be in there?

[ArcherWC]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

[Shaun]

all SV 650 bikes to be removed from the Derik Hill Class as well, and put back in with the Pro Twins for now, these grids are huge, and bloody well done to all in the club. The Vic club series has been the best in NZ for ever

[FROSTY]

Cut and dry really isn't it?
either enforce the 115% rule or the first past the post rule.
Being as its a club series--ie grass roots stuff then id say first past the post--ie fastest 35 bikes.
Would reducing the classes you can enter on any one bike help?
In other words given that feilds are indeed huge why not enforce a one bike /one class rule?

[Deano]

I would have no problem with being restricted to one class. I only entered F2 on my pro twin for shits and giggles and to show up some of the 600's.

[quallman1234]

I also noted there is a TZ125 entered in the Derik Hill class? Should that be in there?

According to the MNZ rules thats fine. I know a certain glen skectchy qualified in the top 10 on a 125 in F2

[Nicksta]

tough one Clive as in club level its all about giving everyone a chance isant it? and to get more people into racing.
i'm with you guys so far on cross entering... i think F1 bikes should have precedent over F2 in the F1 race and 600 have it over 650's in F2 for example. someone eligable for F1 should be able to race their class and not worry about a faster F2 bike kicking them out.

I think the road race spectacular limited cross entering by stating, you may enter a different class but on a different bike... Like what I do... I have the CBR for postys and VFR for F3... that would cut back cross entering!

If you want to accommodate everone and cross entering... in the long run we may all have to face a 2 day event... which in itself will weed out those not as committed as others.

[Tony.OK]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

Wot he said..........................For F1 at least that leaves 17 spots open for the fastest F2 riders,start grids would need to either go from fastest times for both(safest) or the F2 grid up behind the F1(not so safe).

Same would work with any cross entries really

[CHOPPA]

I think for sure that in lets say F1 that all F1 bikes get priority to the grid and the 600 riders get the rest of the spots but i as long as the grid positions for the 35 riders is still determined by lap times

The main reason i cross enter is to get more riding, if they cut down on classes made no cross entering and run longer races that would sort the problem

They cant really change it now though cause what would happen if 35 sbk riders turned up all the 600 riders would lose there decent positions in the points series

[steveyb]

In many ways this is the best situation that the sport could possibly be in.
How to manage too many people wanting to do it? Great!!

We are now REALLY going to have to look outside our box for solutions, and this will mean examining the solutions found overseas and adapting them to our environment here. In the UK for example at BemCee and MRO meetings (which are almost now the VMCC comparison) there is no such thing as cross entering (at least in the main part). As a competitor you decide what you want to ride, select the appropriate class and stick with it. The US is the same.
This invariably means that you get one or two races per weekend. And you must qualify. If you don't, the only place you are going is into the stands to watch, end of story. You enter knowing that is the case. If you don't meet the standard, you need to go somewhere else to practice until you can meet the standard.

But of course their populations are higher and therefore they have more people wanting to do it. But we are now almost in the same situation.

Let us have some perspective on why we have the situation we now have at VMCC.

Some years ago (early-mid 90's) the numbers of people in the sport were falling dramatically even though we had at least 3 clubs running racing meetings at Manfeild and elsewhere around the place. Then Mr and Mrs Gibbes launched the Suzuki Central RoadRace series and things started to turn the corner. There was a short term attendance problem for VMCC due to SCRRS but the products were different enough that many riders decided to opt for one over the other, but SCRRS seemed to be the preferred supplier.

Numbers at VMCC meetings were so low that in order to make the grids viable cross-entering was encouraged and the karts were invited along to help pay for the events.

After a while the VMCC series lifted its game to meet the market and numbers picked up and then the SCRRS folded for a variety of reasons (the viability or attractiveness of the product I reckon was NOT one of them). So the riders started to come back more and more to VMCC.

So then time became precious, so VMCC needed to uninvite the karts and now space is precious, so maybe cross entering needs to be un-invited also.

So, I agree with the suggestion that PRIMARY entrants into a class get priority over cross-entered classes where classes are oversubscribed.

The issue of course boils down to the fact that riders want to ride all day long and want to get it all for one low entry fee.

My answers to this are three fold:
1) If you can ride more than one class then I believe that you are not riding hard enough, or are superfit. I am no super athelete (Dodgy Simy can vouch for that), but after finding out how hard I had to ride to win a round of NZ SBK 250GP and how buggered I was afterwards, I know that all the racing I had done previously was really just riding around. Are you there to race and race properly, or is it really just a glorified trackday for you? Do you really give 101% in every lap? If not, are you really racing, or just practicing each lap? And this applies to EVERYONE, not just the front runners. Why are you there? Think about that.

2) We have too many classes. This means that the meetings become totally time poor and we are left with 6 lap races. Whatever! 6 laps?? It is not long enough to really test anyone but the best first lap riders.

3) Two day meetings. I know this is the most difficult, if not impossible part of it, but that is how Bemcee and MRO are run in the UK and it works for them, why not for us? Yes, there are many reasons why not, but it is a possible solution at some time in the future.

Another part of the issue is the tacit agreement that VMCC run under F1 and F2 rules, rather than Superbike and Sports Production (Supersport). The former was done to allow all the 'special' bikes out there a place to compete, the latter very clearly legislates the types of machines that can be run. Actually 600cc bikes are probably not legal for Formula 1 anyway, but traditionally there have been insufficient Superbikes to make that class viable, so 600's and other bikes (250GP)have been allowed in. If VMCC adopted the MNZ class structures then there could be no confusion. But then where would all the others go? There are now perhaps enough Superbikes to make this a viable consideration.

I've said enough for now, lunch break is over.

Cheers

Steve

[bistard]

Hey Clive,good question,but the answer should be the fastest 35 bikes,no arguement
At least if the riders decide to move up from the Vic Club meetings & go to the nationals,they wont be disapointed,as the rules will be the same,you have to qualify
It is a sad fact that some people will miss out,they either go to another class,or even better go faster next time & qualify
If you start swapping & changing the rules,expections will also change,so you will get the"You did it for so & so,why not me"
I keep thinking back to the PC world we now live in where,kids at school there are no winners & losers,they dont pass or fail exams,its bull shit,harden up,this is life & there will be disapointment!!

[wharfy]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

This makes the most sense to me too.

If you don't get into a cross entered class you get your $10 back ?
(lucky I'm still in clubman's :-)

[wharfy]

Hey Clive,good question,but the answer should be the fastest 35 bikes,no arguement
At least if the riders decide to move up from the Vic Club meetings & go to the nationals,they wont be disapointed,as the rules will be the same,you have to qualify
It is a sad fact that some people will miss out,they either go to another class,or even better go faster next time & qualify
If you start swapping & changing the rules,expections will also change,so you will get the"You did it for so & so,why not me"
I keep thinking back to the PC world we now live in where,kids at school there are no winners & losers,they dont pass or fail exams,its bull shit,harden up,this is life & there will be disapointment!!

School is about learning the subjects - not how to be a double hard bastard.

Racing is supposed to be "safe, fair and fun".
1/ Limiting the grid makes it safe.
2/ The 115% rule makes it safe
3/ Letting the people who have that class as there primary one have first crack (provided 1 & 2 are met) makes it fair
4/ Allowing other classes to fill in rest of the places should keep it fun

Soften up a bit :-)

MCNZ Production Superbike Regulations
Rule 1 Capacity
700cc ñ Open 4-stroke 3 & 4 Cylinder
800cc ñ Open 4-stroke Twin Cylinder


argument
disappointment
expectations

[Clivoris]

Eliminate 600 from the SB class, OR at least eliminate enough 600 bikes, to allow all sb to try and Qualify

I think prioritising places for those not cross entered and leaving the rest to fight for the left overs would achieve this. The grid placings would still be decided by laptimes to keep things safest.

Guess this groth is good for the sport though, try to be positive about the growth

I also noted there is a TZ125 entered in the Derik Hill class? Should that be in there?
Yep, our supplementary regs allow this.


if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it
You may be right but it would make a big difference to the 5 extra racers that get to compete. If all goes well and the growth continues we may be able to have full fields without cross-entry.

Cut and dry really isn't it?
either enforce the 115% rule or the first past the post rule.
Being as its a club series--ie grass roots stuff then id say first past the post--ie fastest 35 bikes.
Would reducing the classes you can enter on any one bike help?
In other words given that feilds are indeed huge why not enforce a one bike /one class rule?
I don't think it is that cut and dried, and it is starting to look like doing something about cross-entries might address some of the problems. For me, the fact that it is club-racing, increases the importance of giving people an opportunity to have a go.

I think for sure that in lets say F1 that all F1 bikes get priority to the grid and the 600 riders get the rest of the spots but i as long as the grid positions for the 35 riders is still determined by lap times

The main reason i cross enter is to get more riding, if they cut down on classes made no cross entering and run longer races that would sort the problem

They cant really change it now though cause what would happen if 35 sbk riders turned up all the 600 riders would lose there decent positions in the points series
In the current situation I don't think any of the high placed 600 riders would miss out.

In many ways this is the best situation that the sport could possibly be in.
How to manage too many people wanting to do it? Great!!

In the UK for example at BemCee and MRO meetings (which are almost now the VMCC comparison) there is no such thing as cross entering (at least in the main part). As a competitor you decide what you want to ride, select the appropriate class and stick with it. The US is the same.
This invariably means that you get one or two races per weekend. And you must qualify. If you don't, the only place you are going is into the stands to watch, end of story. You enter knowing that is the case. If you don't meet the standard, you need to go somewhere else to practice until you can meet the standard.

So, I agree with the suggestion that PRIMARY entrants into a class get priority over cross-entered classes where classes are oversubscribed.

My answers to this are three fold:
1) If you can ride more than one class then I believe that you are not riding hard enough, or are superfit. Are you there to race and race properly, or is it really just a glorified trackday for you? Do you really give 101% in every lap? If not, are you really racing, or just practicing each lap? And this applies to EVERYONE, not just the front runners. Why are you there? Think about that.

2) We have too many classes. This means that the meetings become totally time poor and we are left with 6 lap races. Whatever! 6 laps?? It is not long enough to really test anyone but the best first lap riders.

3) Two day meetings. I know this is the most difficult, if not impossible part of it, but that is how Bemcee and MRO are run in the UK and it works for them, why not for us? Yes, there are many reasons why not, but it is a possible solution at some time in the future.

Another part of the issue is the tacit agreement that VMCC run under F1 and F2 rules, rather than Superbike and Sports Production (Supersport). The former was done to allow all the 'special' bikes out there a place to compete, the latter very clearly legislates the types of machines that can be run. Actually 600cc bikes are probably not legal for Formula 1 anyway, but traditionally there have been insufficient Superbikes to make that class viable, so 600's and other bikes (250GP)have been allowed in. If VMCC adopted the MNZ class structures then there could be no confusion. But then where would all the others go? There are now perhaps enough Superbikes to make this a viable consideration.

Good to have the historical context Steve. As the series gets bigger there will be some hard decisions made alright.

Hey Clive,good question,but the answer should be the fastest 35 bikes,no arguement
At least if the riders decide to move up from the Vic Club meetings & go to the nationals,they wont be disapointed,as the rules will be the same,you have to qualify
It is a sad fact that some people will miss out,they either go to another class,or even better go faster next time & qualify
If you start swapping & changing the rules,expections will also change,so you will get the"You did it for so & so,why not me"
I keep thinking back to the PC world we now live in where,kids at school there are no winners & losers,they dont pass or fail exams,its bull shit,harden up,this is life & there will be disapointment!!
Good points Baz. It's exactly the kind of thing that Delboy reinforced to me when I'd get all soft-hearted at meetings. It's harder work but I think it should be possible to retain the competitive nature of racing and give people space to develop skills in the class they prioritise racing in.

If you don't get into a cross entered class you get your $10 back ?
(lucky I'm still in clubman's :-)

Err..No. Not worth the hassle. You pays your money and takes your chances.
Thanks for the ideas and keep them coming.

[White trash]

Reverse Grid Races!!!! :d

[montsta56]

What About cracking down on bikes in post classics that are not eligable for instance 1991 VFR's an 1990-1991 ZXR's 400's that seem free to run??

[Toast]

I think prioritising places for those not cross entered and leaving the rest to fight for the left overs would achieve this. The grid placings would still be decided by laptimes to keep things safest.


I don't think that this would have much of an effect, at least not right away. I don't think that any of the 18 Superbike riders would fail to qualify. If they did though, they should probably be in Clubmans anyway.

Fair enough though, F1 bikes should get priority in F1 over cross entering 600s, 250s, etc. If the idea is to give everyone a go though, fill Clubmans up first, especially as it's no longer a championship class.

As for grid sizes, I would think that the fact they're 6 lap races would mean that it's less important. The ones at the back, assuming the 115% rule is applied, aren't going to get in the way of anyone. True that more bikes on the track means more likelihood of crashes, but I don't think that it exponentially increases past 35 bikes. Adding 5 or 10 more bikes won't mean that there's more stuffed in to the same width of corner at one time, just that the train is a bit longer.


I would have no problem with being restricted to one class. I only entered F2 on my pro twin for shits and giggles and to show up some of the 600's.

Some of those for whom it's a 1000km+ round trip might care a little more though. Track time is important to me, and if I couldn't double up I might not turn up. Not that this would be a huge loss to the club

Club's call though.

[Shaun P]

If 600's are stopped from going into F1 it would make the class more desireable and get more popular increasing numbers.

Why not make a feature or teams race with 1 race per event for the fastest riders on any bike? Then it wouldnt only favour f2. Like Paeroa King of streets etc grid positions of race lap times - that would give the quick guys in whatever class more race time if they choose. Not an original idea, but one that im sure would be popular and time efficient.

[Sparky Bills]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it



My thoughts too.
Why should someone miss out cause another rider has crossed entered.
600 stay in F2, 650 and 400 stay in F3/Pro Twin and so on.

Maybe when numbers thin out a bit then look at cross enteries again. But with the numbers we have these days, it just cant be done.

[Sparky Bills]

Just keep in mind...
This series is club racing. If people cant race at these events, how would they ever get fast enough to race anywhere??

[driftn]

My thoughts too.
Why should someone miss out cause another rider has crossed entered.
600 stay in F2, 650 and 400 stay in F3/Pro Twin and so on.

Maybe when numbers thin out a bit then look at cross enteries again. But with the numbers we have these days, it just cant be done.

I concurr.

[White trash]

Why not make a feature or teams race with 1 race per event for the fastest riders on any bike? Then it wouldnt only favour f2. Like Paeroa King of streets etc grid positions of race lap times - that would give the quick guys in whatever class more race time if they choose. Not an original idea, but one that im sure would be popular and time efficient.

That's actually a friggen good idea Shaun, good thinking. That'd be cool.

From a safety point of view, the 600s entered in F1 aren't actually an issue. Look at the fall rate from Round I last month. I'd hazard a guess that F1/F2 had the least amount of crashers of all classes.

[lostinflyz]

as someone just starting out if i showed up for a race and got told i wasn't in the top 35 and couldnt race in my class (be it f1, 2 or 3 or whatever) i doubt id show back up for your meetings.

Its fairly key to remember that these are club meetings and the only way to get faster is to go racing. No one wants to be told you have to go racing clubmans if you dont want to either.

In terms of solutions is there any reason that each rider can't nominate a single class as there primary and then nominate secondary classes so that the tracks always full. You are garanteed a spot in your primary class and that way can go racing where u belong. secondary classes filled as Vmcc sees fit be it fastest or first in the door.

[Tony.OK]

as someone just starting out if i showed up for a race and got told i wasn't in the top 35 and couldnt race in my class (be it f1, 2 or 3 or whatever) i doubt id show back up for your meetings.

Its fairly key to remember that these are club meetings and the only way to get faster is to go racing. No one wants to be told you have to go racing clubmans if you dont want to either.


The problem is though that how many do you allow on the track just because you want to race,if you have read your entry info you'll already know what to expect regarding cutoffs.
Its my 1st season too and I checked last years times to see if I could have a go in F1 without embaressing myself,or getting in the way,but was preparing to enter clubmans if I had too.
Its always gonna be a sticky topic but sometimes ppl have to be real with their abilities.

[roadracingoldfart]

The last time i commented on this subject i had my ass chewed by people so im gonna sit and watch what develops.

I agree for the record that something has to be ironed out to make it fair and safe for all concerned.

Paul.

[lostinflyz]

i agree with you TOny.OK, you do have to be in the field to play but the field is pretty spread quite often. but to be bumped outta your field by guys cross entering seems dumb. I know a few guys on older (early 00's) litre bikes that only hold it with guys on newer 600's. It would be kinda dumb if they showed up and got kicked cause they can't afford to replace a bike every few seasons. This may well not be happening but it will eventually. the same case can be applied to all classes too.

[CHOPPA]

Reverse Grid Races!!!! :d

Im sure your kidding but that would be fun!

[White trash]

I know a few guys on older (early 00's) litre bikes that only hold it with guys on newer 600's. It would be kinda dumb if they showed up and got kicked cause they can't afford to replace a bike every few seasons.


With all due respect (and good on ya for getting involved) in 1991 Aaron Slight was lapping Manfeild in 1.07 on a ZXR750 with around 140hp. Don't tell me a 01 GSXR1000 with modern suspension and 160 hp aint up for those lap times. If your mates are getting roosted by blokes on 600s riding those bikes, it aint because the bike's outdated.

That being said, Club events are for Club racers, first and formost. We need to remember that. The club racers should NEVER be turned away, I'm just not sure how to make it easier.

Perhaps a fastest cutoff. Those that run under 1.10 go home. Ya HEAR that Craig!!!!

[DEATH_INC.]

I know a few guys on older (early 00's) litre bikes that only hold it with guys on newer 600's.
Try it on an old 750 :)
The problem with saying not 'fast enough, do clubmans' is that there is a cutoff time for clubmans too, you could easily end up between classes.
If I can ever afford to get down again (yeh I know, waa waa) I'd be pissed if I didn't qualify for any classes.....
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea :niceone:

[Ivan]

The only thing I can see is if the cross entrys dont get to go out at all some of them will uproar on wanting there money back.

I am a cross entry and would like the track time but also i go with the flow.

I think its a hard one really working out what to do as the club really is to over sized now, its at the stage of needing F3 a F3 B classes F2 a F2 B etc but there is no time to run these races bar the event of say running them in another class but then those classes are over subscribed as well...

And you have no classes to bump off the charts bar clubmans but then they are a class as well to so your stuck....

:gob:

[White trash]

Perhaps Clive, a format similar to Tim Gibbes Suzuki Series of the late nineties might be the go.

"A" "B" and "C" grades. Based on lap times. Fair as fuck, can't argue with the stop watch.

[Tony.OK]

but to be bumped outta your field by guys cross entering seems dumb. .
Yeah with you on that 100%
I was thinking into the future when a class is overfilled with just its own class,then it'd have to be the 115% rule or something.

Try it on an old 750 :)
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea :niceone:

Yep:2thumbsup


What if the meetings got separated into 2 days but having half the classes run on separate days?Sat=F1/F2/F3 Sun=Motards/GP/post classsics etc.
That way there'd be plenty of track time and longer races;)
If there were enough entries then hopefully that'd cover extra track hirage.Volunteers would be the next problem:pinch:

[CHOPPA]

Its looking like most believe the problem on the surface is cross entering classes which it probably is but please if your gonna change the cross entry rule have a look at the reason so many of us do it and come up with a solution to that problem ie less classes longer races.

A feature race like shaun was saying at the end of the day would be cool! maybe charge everyone who wants to enter $10 for that 1 race thats $350

1ST $200
2ND $100
3RD $50


BTW Im not complaining im more then happy with the series just the way it is!

[Grub]

But what would be the risk if we increased the field sizes? If we allowed up to 40 bikes.

Just a clarification confirmed tonight .... the grid numbers are determined by each circuit's licence. Taupo is allowed 40 on the grid, Manfield 35. so we are stuck with those numbers.

BTW .. excellent thread Clive and good stuff from everyone out of it

[lostinflyz]

is the 2 day thing really possible. as in could u have as many rounds considering you would need to book the track twice as much. would it be more practical to have an additional round or two (or three or four....) with some sort of restrictions on entries to give people a go. Its a compromise in a way i guess

not to mention the additional costs and people you have to hunt down to marshall the course.

[Petrolic]

first time racer here (so what do I know)and I had a thought, heaven forbid I get kicked out of clubmans bcos of my time and f1 is full where can I go on a litre bike??? When I see 600s in the f1. Do the 600s take f1 seriously or is it just more track time, I think we know the answer and I would do the same thing for 10 lowsey bucks . double the track time double the entry fee, sounds fare. I would be the first to get check book out but I am limited for classes on an r1...????

[Tony.OK]

first time racer here (so what do I know)and I had a thought, heaven forbid I get kicked out of clubmans bcos of my time and f1 is full where can I go on a litre bike??? When I see 600s in the f1. Do the 600s take f1 seriously or is it just more track time, I think we know the answer and I would do the same thing for 10 lowsey bucks . double the track time double the entry fee, sounds fare. I would be the first to get check book out but I am limited for classes on an r1...????

Seeing as there are six 600's in the top 10 spots,i think they are kinda serious.
Gonna have to do something about that though:bleh::chase:

[Grub]

Just keep in mind...
This series is club racing. If people cant race at these events, how would they ever get fast enough to race anywhere??

Exactly why we're having this discussion. A number here have raised the question of people being sent home without having a race. It would be fair to say that the reason we are having this discussion is because there's no way we want this to happen ... so we have to explore all of the alternatives to make sure it doesn't.

[roogazza]

Perhaps Clive, a format similar to Tim Gibbes Suzuki Series of the late nineties might be the go.

"A" "B" and "C" grades. Based on lap times. Fair as fuck, can't argue with the stop watch.

Excellent Mr Trash , the aussie system works doesn't it ? we'd have to contend with a few shattered egos though ?
But really stopping the cross entering would cure it for the mo. I see there are only 8 entries for pro twins again thats a bit sad, stick em in with me I don't give a shit who's out there. Gaz.

[Shaun]

Reverse Grid Races!!!! :d




Exciting, but a little unsafe really I think

[twinshock750]

has been an interesting read and it would seem the common theme coming through is:
1) You have first right of entry into your primary class
2) Remainder slots in that class by other bikes where allowed

Thus If I rode an R1/GSXR1000/ZX10 etc I'd be in F1.

If I had a GSXR600/R6/ZX6R etc - I'd be F2 and if space available, I'd have a shot at F1.

The thing that came to my mind though is that cross entry ishould be a "Bonus" because you might have a bike that allows it. However, remember, there are a bunch of guys ( ie an open class bikes in F1), don't have anywhere else they can cross enter to. So fairs fair for them

Which leads me me back to confirming my thoughts on points 1 & 2.

Reducing cross entry won't add space into your programme - as you will still be running the same number of races. just will be a little less pressure on qualifying for tose races that are "full"

[Clivoris]

This is so good to hear these ideas, especially as they seem to confirm that this is a difficult situation for the club and the riders that we need to be thinking about now before it becomes a crisis.


What About cracking down on bikes in post classics that are not eligable for instance 1991 VFR's an 1990-1991 ZXR's 400's that seem free to run??
This is a really good call monsta. I have had discussions with a couple of people experienced in the administration side of post classic racing (in an attempt to establish the legitimacy of my bike) and it would seem that at their meetings it is largely self policing. They all know what other guys are running and have a good idea of the legality of it. The VMC on the other hand are not as knowledgeable. If there was a formal complaint, we would follow up on it but until now have relied on the integrity of the riders. My bike is a case in point. It apparently qualifies because the model was actually manufactured in 1989 and able to be purchased despite being a 90 model. If challenged I would have to produce documentation confirming this, and thereby it's eligibility. It is the rider's responsibility to do this if challenged. My understanding is, that if we don't have the appropriate evidence, no entry. Best I get onto this:confused:. I think I will talk with the post classic geezers to see if there is a way that all post classic entries can be reviewed for validity, at the meeting. Is that nervous shuffling I hear?

As for grid sizes, I would think that the fact they're 6 lap races would mean that it's less important.

Track time is important to me, and if I couldn't double up I might not turn up. Not that this would be a huge loss to the club

As already noted, 35 is the max and out of our ability to change. Regarding track time, there is no way to know if the series will keep growing or if this is it. But if I was a gambling man, I'd be betting on further growth in road racing, in the immediate future. I certainly want to get my share of recreational fossil-fuel before it's all gone. It seems like we will have to choose between giving lots of classes a small bite of the apple, or a reduced number of classes a bigger bite each.


If 600's are stopped from going into F1 it would make the class more desireable and get more popular increasing numbers.

Why not make a feature or teams race with 1 race per event for the fastest riders on any bike? Then it wouldnt only favour f2. Like Paeroa King of streets etc grid positions of race lap times - that would give the quick guys in whatever class more race time if they choose. Not an original idea, but one that im sure would be popular and time efficient.
I'm not so sure about your first comment above. The second one is indeed a great idea, but normally we are lucky to get through the race program we have already. If we have to take a race away from a class to hold a king for the day race, who do we take it away from?

as someone just starting out if i showed up for a race and got told i wasn't in the top 35 and couldnt race in my class (be it f1, 2 or 3 or whatever) i doubt id show back up for your meetings.

Its fairly key to remember that these are club meetings and the only way to get faster is to go racing. No one wants to be told you have to go racing clubmans if you dont want to either.

In terms of solutions is there any reason that each rider can't nominate a single class as there primary and then nominate secondary classes so that the tracks always full. You are garanteed a spot in your primary class and that way can go racing where u belong. secondary classes filled as Vmcc sees fit be it fastest or first in the door.
No disrespect intended mate but if someone failed to qualify for their class and didn't come back because of this, it's probably the right decision for them. If they don't want to race clubmans and decide not to, it's the right decision. They obviously aren't as fast as they think they are and are too proud to work on it. Clubmans is the class where someone can run what they brung and develop some skills and learn about racing. Street stock is the other awesome class for this. The suggestion you have made at the end is where we are probably heading as an interim solution to some of the issues.

Try it on an old 750 :)
The problem with saying not 'fast enough, do clubmans' is that there is a cutoff time for clubmans too, you could easily end up between classes.
If I can ever afford to get down again (yeh I know, waa waa) I'd be pissed if I didn't qualify for any classes.....
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea :niceone:
I think the odds of someone falling between classes is very slight. As others have noted, this is club-racing and we really do want to be inclusive and have a good time.

The only thing I can see is if the cross entrys dont get to go out at all some of them will uproar on wanting there money back.
I think its a hard one really working out what to do as the club really is to over sized now, its at the stage of needing F3 a F3 B classes F2 a F2 B etc but there is no time to run these races bar the event of say running them in another class but then those classes are over subscribed as well...

And you have no classes to bump off the charts bar clubmans but then they are a class as well to so your stuck....
:gob:
Refunding entry fees if people fail to qualify just isn't going to happen. Stevie's history above put it into context well. It may be time to change with the times. There may be some pain involved. I also can't imagine that clubmans will ever be dropped as a class.

Perhaps Clive, a format similar to Tim Gibbes Suzuki Series of the late nineties might be the go.
"A" "B" and "C" grades. Based on lap times. Fair as fuck, can't argue with the stop watch.
The biggest problem with this is finding the time to run these races. I can imagine it happening if the growth keeps occurring but I am hoping that we can find a fair way to give everyone a crack, as it is. It would be smart of me to pick Mr Gibbes' brain about how this worked, number of classes etc. I keep forgetting that these old geezers have had the answers all the time. Didn't roadracingoldfart mumble something earlier?

Its looking like most believe the problem on the surface is cross entering classes which it probably is but please if your gonna change the cross entry rule have a look at the reason so many of us do it and come up with a solution to that problem ie less classes longer races.

A feature race like shaun was saying at the end of the day would be cool! maybe charge everyone who wants to enter $10 for that 1 race thats $350

1ST $200
2ND $100
3RD $50

BTW Im not complaining im more then happy with the series just the way it is!
Yep.

first time racer here (so what do I know)and I had a thought, heaven forbid I get kicked out of clubmans bcos of my time and f1 is full where can I go on a litre bike??? When I see 600s in the f1. Do the 600s take f1 seriously or is it just more track time, I think we know the answer and I would do the same thing for 10 lowsey bucks . double the track time double the entry fee, sounds fare. I would be the first to get check book out but I am limited for classes on an r1...????

Many of us have had a similar dilemna. I know many racers who have ditched the big road-bike so they can afford a dedicated race-bike in a class that suits them better. Tough choices.

[steveyb]

Time bracket or Grade racing is an idea that comes around every so often, and might be seen as a panacea to the current problems.
In many ways it might be, but of course there are problems with it also.

SCRRS ended up with 7 brackets as my dusty memory recalls, or was it 8?
A, B+, B, C+, C, D+ and D I think (happy to be corrected).

It makes it very easy to find a place for virtually any rider/racer within a group of apparent peers. But it makes it virtually impossible to create a proper championship when riders who are on the cusp of any bracket improve enough during the season and really should be moved to a different bracket.

If a rider improves by 10-20 sec/lap over the season it is clearly unfair for them to remain in the bracket in which they started. So what do you do about their championship points?

It is also a problem for any afficianados who want to see peered machines racing against each other. For the general viewer this is no problem as it is bikes against bikes, all good.

The BIG problem comes when you have machines that get around the circuit very differently coming up against one another. E.G. It is easily possible for a good 125 rider to lap Manfeild in 1:16-1:13 or even better. But many clubman 1000 riders will be doing similar lap times. BUT along the straights the 125s are doing 60-75% of the speed of the 1000's. SuperMotos vs other bikes create similar problems and GP vs Prod bikes in the corners. These immense speed differences create potential for major calamities. It has not happened in the past in racing at Manfeild but has at Pukekohe. This is the major reasons for not favouring grade racing as it has been identified as a potential removable hazard, and if it were to happen then VMCC committee could be held liable.

I will also add my personal view point on first timers and clubmans racers as reinforced by Clive earlier.

If you end up not qualifying for your class and end up not racing (which as is pointed out time and again when this subject comes up, is VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN AS THE CLUB IS INCLUSIVE and will try its best to find a place for you) and you decide that is that and don't come back, then the sport is unlikely to be worse off for it, because you clearly don't want to try hard enough to improve your skill base.

There are places and times for you to train (trackdays in racebike class) so if you make the decision to chuck it in because of that, then as Delboy said to our mate Rob "Maybe this isn't for you ay?"

My other gripe while I am at it: Why the fuck are some of you novices racing (and I use the word advisedly) R1's and the like as a novice??? I know, I know, I've heard all the excuses. I firmly believe it is inappropriate, for any rider of any age. As I said earlier, are you really racing, or just riding around?

There, spleen vented. But keep up the thinking, eventually a best practice solution will be found that suits the majority.

Cheers

Steve

[slowpoke]

less classes longer races.



Wot he said!!

OK, so one problem is solved (number of competitors) and surely the next problem to be tackled is the progression of competitors such that the we have a true PREMIER class. Big fields of the best riders on the best bikes....as opposed to a bulging 600 field and just a handful of Superbikes.

I reckon remove the cross entering and have superbike races 2 laps longer than the rest of the classes. This would result in racers wanting to move up to the big bangers and being rewarded for their efforts.

As a point to consider, I'm in Perth on a training course at the moment and last weekend I attended a car club meeting at Wanneroo. There were seven classes with a 10min practice/qualifying and three 8 lap races for each class (28 track outings in total). They were all done by 4:30pm. Organisation and strict dummy grid timing is the key, along with a safety car in the event of an off (there were plenty). No reason we can't do the same.

[Clivoris]

Time bracket or Grade racing is an idea that comes around every so often, and might be seen as a panacea to the current problems.
In many ways it might be, but of course there are problems with it also.


Aha, now I know what people are talking about. Thanks Doc. It's not the solution I thought it might be.


OK, so one problem is solved (number of competitors) and surely the next problem to be tackled is the progression of competitors such that the we have a true PREMIER class. Big fields of the best riders on the best bikes....as opposed to a bulging 600 field and just a handful of Superbikes.

I reckon remove the cross entering and have superbike races 2 laps longer than the rest of the classes. This would result in racers wanting to move up to the big bangers and being rewarded for their efforts.

As a point to consider, I'm in Perth on a training course at the moment and last weekend I attended a car club meeting at Wanneroo. There were seven classes with a 10min practice/qualifying and three 8 lap races for each class (28 track outings in total). They were all done by 4:30pm. Organisation and strict dummy grid timing is the key, along with a safety car in the event of an off (there were plenty). No reason we can't do the same.

Giving F1 more laps is a bloody good idea, and we do try to give the big boys the extra laps when time is available. If we did it as a matter of course and restricted cross entry, it might build the class up.
We run 8 races/classes, and I think that the plan for this weekend is to run 3 6 lap races for each class. 32 races in total. Dummy grid timing is a lot more difficult than people seem to realise and I feel obliged to say that our grid marshalls do the best they can to keep it ticking over. There will invetibly be times where there are delays. I might be misinterpreting your post but it feels like a suggestion that if we were more organised we could get through more. The feed-back I have had is that the Vic MC has the best run bike meetings in NZ.

[Ivan]

Yeah the Vic Club is a very organised club and its good to be a part of.

I guess the rpoblem with being such a good club is that you get a good reputation so you get alot of riders for me it makes it awsome heaps more people to race agaisnt but for you organisers I know what its like being involved for 2 years i think on commitee it is a stress trying to find room and I say good on you guys for doing what you have done and making round 1 move so smoothly as we know a few people were finding it hard to be there and you kept it ticking over and smoothly top marks guys keep at it:wari:

[driftn]

Try it on an old 750 :)
The problem with saying not 'fast enough, do clubmans' is that there is a cutoff time for clubmans too, you could easily end up between classes.
If I can ever afford to get down again (yeh I know, waa waa) I'd be pissed if I didn't qualify for any classes.....
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea :niceone:


Yes what he said. Ill fly the srad flag for us tough bastards this weekend.
Stay in your appropriate class and there shouldnt be a prob. Until we have 40 super bikes enter that is

[Marknz]

I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea :niceone:

Yep, that would be the concept I would support too. Looking at getting back into it next year on a 600 (only in clubmans 'cause I'm a slow old c%nt) and I would be happy with that plan of attack.

[Marknz]

Exciting, but a little unsafe really I think


Yep, but what about reverse grid with handicap starts? Is that safer? Might stop the carnage going into turn 1? Don't know, just putting it out there.

[Tony.OK]

We run 8 races/classes, and I think that the plan for this weekend is to run 3 6 lap races for each class. 32 races in total.

I hope you're telling porkies:shit:
I was going by last years mylaps results and expecting something similar(15laps) or at least 10.
How do ya get 32 from 3 x 8 classes:blink:

Edit:Sorry i'm a dumbass......................was obviously looking at the 2 day event from last year:crazy:

[Frenchy]

I hope you're telling porkies:shit:
I was going by last years mylaps results and expecting something similar(15laps) or at least 10.
How do ya get 32 from 3 x 8 classes:blink:

Easy Clivoris wnet to the smae scohol as me :eek5:

[Tony.OK]

Easy Clivoris wnet to the smae scohol as me :eek5:

hahaa you were too busy wagging and doin wheelies n stoppies on ur bmx:whistle:

[steveyb]

Didn't get where he is today by being able to count, read, write........:shifty:

[Petrolic]

theres no problem with cross entry, if there is room however why is the cost only ten bucks for all those xtra sessions???? and track time. If a space is available to enter another class as well and you qualify, why not charge a full entry fee for that class. This would mean an xtra several hundred dollars to help share around the running costs of the marshals and those doing such a great job running the club meet. If I could cross over or enter another class I'd be more than willing to pay again. sound fair don't you think? if it means that much to these few.
Just a thought ????

[CHOPPA]

theres no problem with cross entry, if there is room however why is the cost only ten bucks for all those xtra sessions???? and track time. If a space is available to enter another class as well and you qualify, why not charge a full entry fee for that class. This would mean an xtra several hundred dollars to help share around the running costs of the marshals and those doing such a great job running the club meet. If I could cross over or enter another class I'd be more than willing to pay again. sound fair don't you think? if it means that much to these few.
Just a thought ????


Na not really, most of the entry fee is to pay for mnz levies and track hire the clubs prob only left with $10 from each entry so once a rider has paid the initial large entry then i think the $10 is good. Thats why the entry fee is so high in the first place, mx is only $20 to $30 sign on

[Grub]

How do ya get 32 races from 3 x 8 classes:blink:

You're not taking into account the
- race to get a pit bay
- race to get signed on before the scrub session
- race to get to the front of the dummy grid to be first on the track for qualifying
- race to have a pee between races
- race to get a coffee at lunch time
- race to finish lunch and have a pee before next race
- race to get to the race with tyres still hot
- race to get home before you nod off at the wheel

[lostinflyz]

in relation to a few posts there are alot of people down south on older superbikes and even more people on new 600's. The guys on the new 600's usually seem to do better than the older superbike guys. It seems unreasonable to ask a good (but not fucking fantastic) rider to ride in clubmans cause theres alot of 600 bikes doubling up into f1. and i assume they dont want 600's cause they have an attachment to the machinery between there legs.

I doubt that this is happeneing yet but it will and if VMCC is looking at changing the rules of running race days forethought is a great idea or else you stand to piss off more people in the future. If there arent 35 people stacking a class does it matter as well.

but i agree with what most are saying, if you cant qaulify a superbike there must be a reason. If your slow, your slow accept it. but if your on a 7-8 year old sbk is it really reaonsable to make u update it.

[Clivoris]

I hope you're telling porkies:shit:
How do ya get 32 from 3 x 8 classes:blink:


Easy Clivoris wnet to the smae scohol as me :eek5:

Didn't get where he is today by being able to count, read, write........:shifty:
Umm..err..:doh:

You're not taking into account the
- race to get a pit bay
- race to get signed on before the scrub session
- race to get to the front of the dummy grid to be first on the track for qualifying
- race to have a pee between races
- race to get a coffee at lunch time
- race to finish lunch and have a pee before next race
- race to get to the race with tyres still hot
- race to get home before you nod off at the wheel

Nice try Grub, but simple is as simple does. I was busted.

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

To get faster you go to track days and practice there if you are really serious about racing and entering into the "fuller/full" classes.

Yes we are still Club level racing - we have the Clubmans class and the post classic class - interesting that there are not many entries in Clubmans this series ok there are cut off times for these but it is for safety.

As Grub said, Manfeild is only licenced to grid 35 at a time. We cannot put more bike on the grid.

[roadracingoldfart]

To get faster you go to track days and practice there if you are really serious about racing and entering into the "fuller/full" classes.

Yes we are still Club level racing - we have the Clubmans class and the post classic class - interesting that there are not many entries in Clubmans this series ok there are cut off times for these but it is for safety.

As Grub said, Manfeild is only licenced to grid 35 at a time. We cannot put more bike on the grid.


Open days and practice days at the track will not make you go faster unless you have a benchmark to work with to start off. Timing is not available and like type bikes may not be in attendance, a 400 rider wanting to learn to go faster will get nowhere trying to mimic a 1000 or 600.

Club level racing it may be but its the largest series held in NZ and will continue to grow in its present format.
Clubmans is vital for entry level racers and Post Classic is now a very popular class due to the older bikes we all ride and still find fun , not always competative but fun.

May i ask why Manfeild claims to be ALLOWED to run a field of only 35 bikes ?
Who imposes the rule and why is it imposed? , safety , noise ?

I have been involved for many years , decades and have ben in races with many more entries including the Castrol 6 hour and the Shell 2 wheeler all held at Manfield.
Not that im wanting to shit :nono: stir , i just want to know why and what for.

Paul.

[Grub]

Nice try Grub, but simple is as simple does. I was busted.

Bugger ... it was a bit hard thinking of 8 extra 'races'.

[Grub]

May i ask why Manfeild claims to be ALLOWED to run a field of only 35 bikes ?.
Paul, I can't claim to know for certain, but I believe that is the terms of the MSN Licencing of that circuit for motorcycle racing.

[roadracingoldfart]

Paul, I can't claim to know for certain, but I believe that is the terms of the MSN Licencing of that circuit for motorcycle racing.


Thats exactly why im asking my question , nobody seems to know for sure and yet its widely quoted as a rule thats not flexible.

Is it documented anywhere. Does club racing have to adhere to it ?
wanders away to look out the rule book !!

Paul.

[Grub]

Thats exactly why im asking my question , nobody seems to know for sure and yet its widely quoted as a rule thats not flexible.

That's perhaps a little unfair, I said I didn't know for sure but the Vic Race committee do. And yes, we do have to adhere to it. It's mandated by Manfield, just as 40 was by Taupo and is a condition of our hire of the tracks.

Plain and simple, it's a dead duck.

[roogazza]

[QUOTE=roadracingoldfart;1614772
Club level racing it may be but its the largest series held in NZ and will continue to grow in its present format.
I have been involved for many years , decades and have ben in races with many more entries including the Castrol 6 hour and the Shell 2 wheeler all held at Manfield.
Paul.[/QUOTE]

Two Wheeler meets were great, huh Paul ? even though they were club meets, riders would come from all over the country. They were just like points races. (which goes for just about all meets in those days including of course the Street meets)
I can remember having to qualify in fields of 45 !!! (how terrible !) But then those were the days when you had to pass exams at school !! you know pass or fail !!!!! Gaz.

[roadracingoldfart]

Two Wheeler meets were great, huh Paul ? even though they were club meets, riders would come from all over the country. They were just like points races. (which goes for just about all meets in those days including of course the Street meets)
I can remember having to qualify in fields of 45 !!! (how terrible !) But then those were the days when you had to pass exams at school !! you know pass or fail !!!!! Gaz.


Yer i used to qualify for races much better than i did pass exams .
But hell i didnt turn out two bad und i can spull some big wirds and i learnd to talk propperer.

Ahh the good old days

[Clivoris]

Ahh the good old days

Slept in a cardboard box full of glass int middle oft road n all:bleh:

[roadracingoldfart]

That's perhaps a little unfair, I said I didn't know for sure but the Vic Race committee do. And yes, we do have to adhere to it. It's mandated by Manfield, just as 40 was by Taupo and is a condition of our hire of the tracks.

Plain and simple, it's a dead duck.


Please dont get all precious on me GRUB ... its not aimed at you, or anybody in particular.

All i am saying is that we are told its a rule but nobody can tell us either why or when it came into effect or who enforces the rule or who made the rule.
My investigations have all drawn a blank and the rule is not known by all in power of motorcycle racing in NZ.
I dont personally care as i normaly qualify easily for my own class, but it would be nice to have a definative answer from an authority that made the rule or enforces the rule.
The question about it just keeps coming up and has never been answered fully to allay further questioning of it. Lets get it clarified.

I have emailed a few leaders in the field to clarify and i will let you all know what the answer is.
When i rang them they didnt know and were surprised to hear of the rule , so even the upper regions of the sport are perplexed enough to go to thier own rule book , no wonder im confused am as well.

A dead duck it may well be but i live up wind from the carcass so im ok about it if it sits in the sun for a while.

Paul.

[twinshock750]

Please dont get all precious on me GRUB ... its not aimed at you, or anybody in particular.

All i am saying is that we are told its a rule but nobody can tell us either why or when it came into effect or who enforces the rule or who made the rule.
My investigations have all drawn a blank and the rule is not known by all in power of motorcycle racing in NZ.
Paul.

Who actually have you asked?

Rung MNZ, they should/would know because they would be dealing with the guys who do the track inspections?

My understanding is that most tracks are certified by the international bodies and their safety officers (Ie FIA for cars, FIM for bikes) if they are to be used for international events (which most in NZ will have at some point). The guru's look at all sorts of aspects including length and then they stick a number on it.

This # related to their certification or track licence I bet ties into some for of libability insurance and hence the contract.

Manfield would have been inspected numerous times in various guises, including for WSBK over the years.

Hampton downs will no doubt have (or already have had) an inspection by the various bodies at some point or other.

Puke had a FIA (ie car) rep there a year or so ago I understand and it was them who said pull the poxy wall that caused all the problems for bikes, by the pit entry.

For info: Phillip Island at 4.45km is still only limited to 39 starters.

[Clivoris]

My impression, rightly or wrongly that it is about some kind of manfield licencing that Pres Melintino had checked out. Might ask again tomorrow and see if Andrew Jones (steward) knows.

[Racey Rider]

Vic club race days for VIC CLUB MEMBERS.

If your a member of the club, your guaranteed first right into your chosen class.

Outsiders by Bribes and Corruption. :whistle:

:calm:

[Clivoris]

Mmmm. Bribes:apint::chase:

[Grub]

Forget the Bribes .. what about the corruption? Are raping and pillaging involved?

[scracha]

will talk with the post classic geezers to see if there is a way that all post classic entries can be reviewed for validity, at the meeting.
Very difficult to police. You'll quite possibly loose half the entrants and increase costs (wasn't one of the reasons for pre89 to reduce costs?) to achieve very little. What's the point of banning 1995 ZXR's anyway? Are they considerably better than 1989 ZXR's or likely to blow away FZR4/600's and suchlike.



Is that nervous shuffling I hear?

I'd say, but not for the age of the bike. If the scruts start checking the engine and frame numbers they'll probably find half the bikes are stolen.

Realistically, people are attracted to the VMCC events because of the sheer amount of tracktime that cross entering allows. Due to time and costs, I for one probably would not enter the whole series were it not for cross entering. If the fields are so large, make it a 2 day event. This will allow the club to explore having more races in a given class, splitting classes or having more laps in every race. Increase the additional "cross entered" class fee to compensate for the extra costs. Arrange the most popular "cross entered" classes so that there's more likelyhood a rider can do all their racing on just one day. With all the peso's involved in racing, I doubt many riders would complain about spending an extra few bucks considering the additional track time this achieves.

[Clivoris]

Top thinking Stevie. It doesn't seem that I need to panic too much now that we have confirmation that up to 40 bikes can be accommodated within the terms of Manfields licence.
My simplistic understanding of the pre 82/89 era ethic is that it's ok to enter a bike built after 82/89 as long as it is identical to an earlier model or doesn't use technology that wasn't in use or available pre 82/89. Of course this is endlessly debateable but it would seem that the post classics guys generally sort this out well.
Mmmm. I hadn't really considered the possibilty of stolen bikes being raced. Must be a regulation against that somewhere too.

[Grub]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

[Tony.OK]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

:2thumbsup:Punk::niceone:

[flame]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

AWESOME:woohoo:

Well done VMCC, another awesomely run event.

[wharfy]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

sounds good to me:yes:

[ajturbo]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

it was a good thing to watch..

testing the fitness of the riders AND the bikes...

shame old WT wasn't up to it...

[Clivoris]

shame old WT wasn't up to it...

:Oi:He wasn't the only fast and good-looking rider caught out on the hairpin:whistle:

[ArcherWC]

One other thing we did at our MX club was you only got championship points for your primary class.

IE if you want to win a Superbike title, you must be riding a superbike

[ajturbo]

:Oi:He wasn't the only fast and good-looking rider caught out on the hairpin:whistle:
was TRYING to by-pass that bit....lol

[CHOPPA]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?


so good!!!!!!!

[Deano]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

Two thumbs up Grub !!

[scracha]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?
Really enjoyed it...even on someone else's bike. Think everyone did.

[Matt Bleck]

Thanks to all who gave up there time to make this event possible!! :niceone:

[Toast]

And so what is the reaction to the program format of 1x6 lapper and 1x12 lapper on Saturday instead of 3 x 6laps?

Yeah it was good fun. Damn good call whoever made that.

[driftn]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::2thumbsup:clap:

6 lap then the 12 was wicked realy hope we can have that again:banana: