The failure of capitalism (again)

[idleidolidyll]

The failure of capitalism (again)
<o></o>
It’s happening again, capitalism is failing society. Capitalism and free trade, markets, exchanges…they’re all failing society for exactly the reasons they always fail it: they serve the minority, the greedy few.
<o></o>
We don't live in a country, countries have sovereignty. We live in just another commodity to be bought and sold by anyone from anywhere with the money to do so. And we are so damn small there are millions of people out there who can buy us with change left over.
Our businesses, our resources, our sovereignty; it’s all being sold to the very people who manipulate the system to make it easier for themselves to buy the system ad infinitum.
<o></o>
Our farmers sell produce to the rich countries and expect us on lower wages in NZ to pay the same prices. Increasingly those ‘kiwi’ farmers are selling out and the ‘kiwi’ is fading. Like other developed nations our future is Monsanto and the other monopolies, the users without honest social consciences.
Those same companies don’t really want us to be able to afford our food, they need low wages to feed the rich elsewhere.
<o></o>
I ask you, what use is a food export market when your own countrymen can’t afford what you grow? What use is such business to the society it operates in? Dumb shit indeed.
<o></o>
Traders are forcing fuel prices up and at the same time; fleecing the planet of wealth. They’re driving our costs up while multi national and even local companies are driving our wages down on the open market. We compete with foreigners for the scraps off the table.
<o></o>
‘Free trade’ is closer to cheap slavery than social benefit. It allows the greedy rich to buy our arses at a time when we don’t have the power to fight back. Free trade is an abrogation of social responsibility in our nation. Gestures disguised as charity don’t cut it. When they’re driving income down and buying property, resources and control; the charity is a cheap price to pay for 4 million servants.
<o></o>
Markets and exchanges ensure the rich get the best of everything. The kicker is they also manipulate the currency markets to make it easier for themselves to afford the commodities and resources. Sometimes surreptitiously as here where they’re just buying our entire economy, and to places like <st1:country-region><st1>Iraq</st1></st1:country-region> where the Yanks actually had the arrogance to draft laws in a foreign sovereign nation donating that economy to foreign corporations in perpetuity!
<o></o>
Capitalism is failing society, not just here but everywhere. Labour, the centrist party, won’t make it better. National, the right wingers will make it worse.
<o>
</o>Bend over people, put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, you’ll soon be property if you’re not already.

[Ixion]

Oh, you are SO going to get infracted.

[98tls]

Maybe they thought we couldnt care less what became of "kiwidom" after watching us give it away for the last 20 years or so.

[idleidolidyll]

Oh, you are SO going to get infracted.

infracted by capitalism; like i've ever given a shit

[Headbanger]

No great revelation there, Small guy gets kicked around by the big guy.Been that way since day one.

What do you suggest to do about it?

Take up arms?, Behead our heads of state?, Lock NZ away from the rest of the world and create some fantastical utopia?

Humans, being human, will always display human traits, You need to come to terms with it and find your own peace, rather then writing all that dribble. You have no insight.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Boring (again).

[98tls]

No great revelation there, Small guy gets kicked around by the big guy.Been that way since day one.

What do you suggest to do about it?
Take uppers not downers.:2thumbsup

[davereid]

Hmm... capitalisim and free trade are not the same, although they are first cousins.

I checked everywhere. Even in my undies.

Everywhere I checked, the concept of willing buyer, willing seller was working just fine.

OK, the Socialists were using violence to take money off me so they could give it to their voters.

And the Socialists were taking $1 in direct taxes on my petrol.
And 12.5% GST, and 30% of any profits the people making the petrol, driving the trucks that delivered it, fixing the pumps that put it in my car made.

Actually, free trade appears to have in the last 100 years alone, doubled my life span. Given me personal transport. Given me effective medicine and a means to access it.

Capitalisim ? Well, thats about the control of money.
Its different to free trade.

Generally, capitalisim can't work unless free trade works.

But of course, a canny capitalist likes to control everything. Thats not good.

But its not common. As fortune would have it, we normaly reserve total control for the socialist.

[idleidolidyll]

Maybe they thought we couldnt care less what became of "kiwidom" after watching us give it away for the last 20 years or so.

and that's the trick: spin it so it looks like we wanted to give it away

they took it;
from douglas onward, the right wing rewrote society and fucked us over with it.

douglas was the biggest coup capitalism ever had here. a bloke who pretended socialism long enough to impose a heartless capitalism that kick started the rot. National amplified it with the ECA and the centrists don't have the balls to dump it.

[idleidolidyll]

Hmm... capitalisim and free trade are not the same, although they are first cousins.

who said they were the same? not me. I just recognise that one is the tool of the other.

I checked everywhere. Even in my undies.

shudder

Everywhere I checked, the concept of willing buyer, willing seller was working just fine.

you should try walking past your own door, how many 'willing' buyers cough up fuel or food prices? Fuck all. They're forced to pay because ethere's no choice.

willing seller, willing buyer; what a joke!

OK, the Socialists were using violence to take money off me so they could give it to their voters.

yawn, which socialists exactly? What violence?
The violence of starvation, monopoly and wage slavery...............oops! that a capitalist thing!

And the Socialists were taking $1 in direct taxes on my petrol.
And 12.5% GST, and 30% of any profits the people making the petrol, driving the trucks that delivered it, fixing the pumps that put it in my car made.

socialists? you still cling like a dag to propaganda even after the trough has been dragged to the horse.
National has stated it won't take away the taxes either, except the taxes on the weralthy of course.

Actually, free trade appears to have in the last 100 years alone, doubled my life span. Given me personal transport. Given me effective medicine and a means to access it.

rotflmfao! most of medicines real advances were made in state funded universities! capitalists merely profited from them.

Capitalisim ? Well, thats about the control of money.
Its different to free trade.

Generally, capitalisim can't work unless free trade works.

But of course, a canny capitalist likes to control everything. Thats not good.

it's spooky the way you regurgitate the propaganda

But its not common. As fortune would have it, we normaly reserve total control for the socialist.

indeed is is common; capitalism isn't about money, it's about power. the ultimate in capitalsim is fascism.

which nations wield maximum control again? ohh, that's right, the capitalsist do

you'd be funny if you weren't so tragically indoctrinated

[idleidolidyll]

You need to come to terms with it and find your own peace

no, that's called quitting

that's exactly what they program you to think

[Headbanger]

no, that's called quitting

that's exactly what they program you to think


Surely they would program me not to think?

Anyway, we get it, You feel everyone who has ever had any power in government, business or socially has orchestrated massive influence and forces in order to make your life miserable.

[Maki]

Yes, let's kick out capitalism. At best we will all be pulled down to an equal, miserable mediocre level. At worst there will be suffering on a scale seen under the heel of dictators such as Mao and Stalin.

If I make something, I don't care what in the hell it is I want to be free to sell it to whoever I want. NO ONE is more competent than me, the producer to decide who I sell to.

"Our farmers sell produce to the rich countries and expect us on lower wages in NZ to pay the same prices. Increasingly those ‘kiwi’ farmers are selling out and the ‘kiwi’ is fading. Like other developed nations our future is Monsanto and the other monopolies, the users without honest social consciences.
Those same companies don’t really want us to be able to afford our food, they need low wages to feed the rich elsewhere."

Where are all these "rich elsewhere"?

"I ask you, what use is a food export market when your own countrymen can’t afford what you grow? What use is such business to the society it operates in? Dumb shit indeed."

It's a food export market that makes money for the country. Nothing wrong with that.

"Traders are forcing fuel prices up and at the same time; fleecing the planet of wealth."

Nonsense. If you don't want to pay the price, don't buy it. I don't see any "traders" forcing you to buy anything.

"‘Free trade’ is closer to cheap slavery than social benefit. It allows the greedy rich to buy our arses at a time when we don’t have the power to fight back. Free trade is an abrogation of social responsibility in our nation. Gestures disguised as charity don’t cut it. When they’re driving income down and buying property, resources and control; the charity is a cheap price to pay for 4 million servants."

Most of the world is poorer than we are. Free trade is a great equalizer. You are saying that something that drives incomes down here, but helps people elsewhere in the world who struggle to feed, clothe and educate themselves is a bad thing? How self centered...

"Markets and exchanges ensure the rich get the best of everything. The kicker is they also manipulate the currency markets to make it easier for themselves to afford the commodities and resources. Sometimes surreptitiously as here where they’re just buying our entire economy, and to places like Iraq where the Yanks actually had the arrogance to draft laws in a foreign sovereign nation donating that economy to foreign corporations in perpetuity!"

That's NOT free trade.

"Bend over people, put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, you’ll soon be property if you’re not already."

Maybe it's time you took your own head out of your arse.

[imdying]

Don't know what you're bitching about... if what you're saying is true, then the wealth that they're gathering won't be of any use to them :laugh:

[idleidolidyll]

Surely they would program me not to think?

Nah, that was then, this is now. It's easier to program to think badly than to not think at all.

Anyway, we get it, You feel everyone who has ever had any power in government, business or socially has orchestrated massive influence and forces in order to make your life miserable.

miserable? moi? har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har! har!

you're so far away from the truth i can't see you over the horizon

[Headbanger]

Fine by me :clap:

[98tls]

no, that's called quitting

that's exactly what they program you to think Short of moving which will change nothing there's not really a lot one can do.Maybe ignorance is quitting maybe as the saying goes its bliss,if you ignore the baggy panted caps the wrong way round on there heads ones small town NZ is the last stronghold of the NZ past,the place is fucked and i dont envy my children's children living in the place NZ is going to be.Whats that old saying "you cant live in the past":laugh:fwiw for me anyway that's exactly where i will live until my days are done.

[davereid]

Originally Posted by davereid
Hmm... capitalisim and free trade are not the same, although they are first cousins.

who said they were the same? not me. I just recognise that one is the tool of the other.

Yes you did. Read your post

Everywhere I checked, the concept of willing buyer, willing seller was working just fine.

you should try walking past your own door, how many 'willing' buyers cough up fuel or food prices? Fuck all. They're forced to pay because ethere's no choice.

Two parts to your post.
1. Food prices. Yep, they are going up. Really easy to explain that. Producers have higher costs.
Higher labour, as the minimum adult wage has gone up.
Higher labour, as employers now need to pay for kiwisaver.
Higher labour as employers now need to pay for 4 weeks annual leave.
2. Fuel prices.
Only the governments cut has gone up. The guy at your local gas station makes $0.04 a litre, same as he did 4 years ago. Fuel companies ARE making record profits. Thats because they are selling record amounts of gas.


willing seller, willing buyer; what a joke!

Huh ? where are the clubs or guns ?

OK, the Socialists were using violence to take money off me so they could give it to their voters.

yawn, which socialists exactly? What violence?

Thats how NZ works you halfwit. Man in a grey suit says give me money. You refuse ? He sends two men in blue suits with clubs. You refuse ? They send 10 men in ninja suits with clubs. Thats theft by violence yet it escapes you.


The violence of starvation, monopoly and wage slavery...............oops! that a capitalist thing!

Except.. that in a capitalist society, you can pack your bags and move elsewhere, where the pay is what you deserve.
Oops you can't ! Gee, its the socialists that enforce border control ! Cant have free trade or cheap labour fuckeing up your utopia !



And the Socialists were taking $1 in direct taxes on my petrol.
And 12.5% GST, and 30% of any profits the people making the petrol, driving the trucks that delivered it, fixing the pumps that put it in my car made.

socialists? you still cling like a dag to propaganda even after the trough has been dragged to the horse.
National has stated it won't take away the taxes either, except the taxes on the weralthy of course.

Yep, National are socialist, just not as socialists as the other idiots.


Actually, free trade appears to have in the last 100 years alone, doubled my life span. Given me personal transport. Given me effective medicine and a means to access it.

rotflmfao! most of medicines real advances were made in state funded universities! capitalists merely profited from them.

Quote one.

Capitalisim ? Well, thats about the control of money.
Its different to free trade.

Generally, capitalisim can't work unless free trade works.

But of course, a canny capitalist likes to control everything. Thats not good.

it's spooky the way you regurgitate the propaganda

Huh ? Are you stoned ? or are you always this stupid ?

But its not common. As fortune would have it, we normaly reserve total control for the socialist.

Yep. He is the one that cant rely on voluntary co-operation.

[idleidolidyll]

Yes, let's kick out capitalism. At best we will all be pulled down to an equal, miserable mediocre level. At worst there will be suffering on a scale seen under the heel of dictators such as Mao and Stalin.

slap! pay attention son! when did i say kick it out? socialism is always part capitalism. the problem is capitalism without the social bit

If I make something, I don't care what in the hell it is I want to be free to sell it to whoever I want. NO ONE is more competent than me, the producer to decide who I sell to.

ahh yes, the definition of 'me,me me me me me me me me me me me me me'

Where are all these "rich elsewhere"?

good grief charlie brown! a few percent of the people of the world own 90% of its wealth. we're rapidly sliding down that scale

It's a food export market that makes money for the country. Nothing wrong with that.

no, it's a food market that makes money for the farmer, less and less for the country

Nonsense. If you don't want to pay the price, don't buy it. I don't see any "traders" forcing you to buy anything.

duh! of course they are! why don't you try living a life without buying stuff

Most of the world is poorer than we are. Free trade is a great equalizer. You are saying that something that drives incomes down here, but helps people elsewhere in the world who struggle to feed, clothe and educate themselves is a bad thing? How self centered...

I see, so for the sake of making a few kiwis wealthy, the rest should allow ourselves to be dragged into slavery...............capitalshits like your way of thinking


That's NOT free trade.

I said markets! duh again!

"Bend over people, put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, you’ll soon be property if you’re not already."

Maybe it's time you took your own head out of your arse.

after you

[imdying]

Maki and Davereid... and chance you muppets could figure out how the quoting system works... just like everyone else has managed?

/edit: Yes III ain't got is sussed either, but at least he colour codes his.

[idleidolidyll]

No, you can't live in the past 98tls but you can make the future better

i don't subscribe to the "lay back and think of England" theory of society

[scumdog]

Capitalism is failing society, not just here but everywhere. Labour, the centrist party, won’t make it better. National, the right wingers will make it worse.
<o>
</o>Bend over people, put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, you’ll soon be property if you’re not already.

Communism is sooo much better and so much more successful eh?:bash:

[idleidolidyll]

Communism is sooo much better and so much more successful eh?:bash:

communism?

who the fuck wants communism?

a black or white fallacy, a classic abuse of Aristotelean debate

[imdying]

duh! of course they are! why don't you try living a life without buying stuffIt's only you that makes you a slave... you can grow your own food, you don't need to buy petrol... hell, you don't even need electricity or running water. Other people manage it, you just choose to live a particular lifestyle, one that wouldn't exist without capitalism... unless you think that nice sporting motorcycles would exist without it?

[riffer]

You know dude, you start off making a bit of sense (albeit tinged with bias that most of us generally see through) but you really lose me when you start slagging off your debating opponents and the argument generally disintegrates after that.

I'm sure you've got some stuff here that's worthy of debate. If you tone the abuse down a bit we could have a really good discussion.

[imdying]

wrong, i just don't give a damn

i'll post my way, you post yoursYou do give a damn, otherwise you wouldn't go out of you way to do it. The others, they're just lazy (or perhaps retarded, but I'd like to think lazy, it's nicer). A forum only exists for communication, anything that reduces the forums effectiveness in that roll is a little retarded.

[scumdog]

communism?

who the fuck wants communism?

a black or white fallacy, a classic abuse of Aristotelean debate

Make up your mind: Capitalism or Communism, which way d'ya lean?

Can't be buggered reading the whole post, this sort of clap-trap is dead boring...

[idleidolidyll]

and there it is again, propaganda disguised as wisdom

almost another black or white fallacy

[Headbanger]

Short of moving which will change nothing there's not really a lot one can do.Maybe ignorance is quitting maybe as the saying goes its bliss,if you ignore the baggy panted caps the wrong way round on there heads ones small town NZ is the last stronghold of the NZ past,the place is fucked and i dont envy my children's children living in the place NZ is going to be.Whats that old saying "you cant live in the past":laugh:fwiw for me anyway that's exactly where i will live until my days are done.

What past are you looking at?

70 years ago (one mans lifespan) the world was at war, Genocide was the order of the day, Everything was scarce. Life was hard. People died for things that wouldn't even ruin your week in this age.

Before that we have the depression, Before that another world war, Not to long before that we had wars over local lands, People died just trying to grow enough food to live.

Before that?

In the good old days you lived hard, and died young. More often then not most of your children died.

Sounds awesome.

[idleidolidyll]

Make up your mind: Capitalism or Communism, which way d'ya lean?

exactly! a Black or White fallacy offered as argument, the old false dilemma.

You don't even see it do ya?

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html

[puddytat]

Right on man!! Im surprised that so many think capatalism will get us out of the coming problems when it was that very thing thats got us into the shit were in, & its only the beginning....Why is it that nearly every day on Nat. radio that there is more & more experts from around the world saying that were ALL going to suffer from the greatest threat to humanity in the next 50years, & if we stick with this stink systems that encourages greed,then we really dont have a shits show. Sorry if the truth bursts youre little warm bubbles, but keep your heads in the sand all you anti global warming-ists,you pro free traders, tell it to youre kids when the ask YOU why we used everything & left nothing for them except a future on a fucked planet. Youre money will be worth as little as mine then,'cause the billions of poor are going to rise up take what they need ,not buy it.

[98tls]

No, you can't live in the past 98tls but you can make the future better

i don't subscribe to the "lay back and think of England" theory of society
;)Nicely put.I hear what your saying and a few times in my life i have thought "fuck this i am going to do something" but unfortunately a mortgage blah blah blah has reined in my thoughts on changing the world,looking back maybe that could be read as "lay back etc" dunno.What i do know is we can tap keys on here till the cows come home it wont change a thing.

[idleidolidyll]

What past are you looking at?

70 years ago (one mans lifespan) the world was at war, Genocide was the order of the day, Everything was scarce. Life was hard. People died for things that wouldn't even ruin your week in this age.

True, fascism had taken control and we had to fight and die to get rid of it again.
fascism: extreme right wing capitalism....................

Before that we have the depression, Before that another world war, Not to long before that we had wars over local lands, People died just trying to grow enough food to live.

yep, the STOCK MARKET crashed, capitalsim failed again and millions died, fascism, nationalism and racism dominated until we fought back again

Before that?

In the good old days you lived hard, and died young. More often then not most of your children died.

Sounds awesome.

who wants that? oh yeah, conservatives do............

[davereid]

Bend over people, put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, you’ll soon be property if you’re not already.

No free-trader has made me do that, and none has proposed to

But socialists have already turned me into a slave.
Like it or not, they take my production off me by force.

Exactly how much of what I do needs to be taken from me by force before I am a slave ?

Tell me Idle...

If you take everything I produce, by force them I am a slave.

If you feed me, and give me lodgings am I still a slave ?
Yeah, I am, I'm just a slave who will be alive to be a slave next week too.

So what if you only take 50% of what I produce. (Like NZ does)?

Hmm... maybe I'll reserve the right to use force back one day.

[Headbanger]

'cause the billions of poor are going to rise up take what they need ,not buy it.


Don't be silly, The billions of poor will die off. Happens to all species when resources run out.

Its natures way of bringing balance, It works well.

[idleidolidyll]

tell it to youre kids when the ask YOU why we used everything & left nothing for them except a future on a fucked planet.

they'll lie to their progeny. They say they tried to stop it

[idleidolidyll]

Don't be silly, The billions of poor will die off. Happens to all species when resources run out.

Its natures way of bringing balance, It works well.

so now we're calling capitalism 'nature' i see.............

[idleidolidyll]

;)Nicely put.I hear what your saying and a few times in my life i have thought "fuck this i am going to do something" but unfortunately a mortgage blah blah blah has reined in my thoughts on changing the world,looking back maybe that could be read as "lay back etc" dunno.What i do know is we can tap keys on here till the cows come home it wont change a thing.

Yep, those are some of the control systems they use

[Headbanger]

so now we're calling capitalism 'nature' i see.............



Lmao.

Works for me.

[98tls]

What past are you looking at? The only one i feel suitably qualified to comment on,mine.Must have just got lucky but growing up in very rural NZ was a blessing for sure.

[scumdog]

Meh, as long as I get paid enough to fill my Harley I don't care...enjoy..

[idleidolidyll]

some are easy and some are hard......................

[98tls]

Meh, as long as I get paid enough to fill my Harley I don't care...enjoy.. Best ya do some overtime then as you have a sporty muffler to buy.

[Headbanger]

I too need to do some more slave work for my oppressive masters so I can give money to their oppressive masters who have used offshore slaves to make a shoddy product they have brainwashed me into thinking I need/want.

[idleidolidyll]

I too need to do some more slave work for my oppressive masters so I can give money to their oppressive masters who have used offshore slaves to make a shoddy product they have brainwashed me into thinking I need/want.

that's the spirit!

[scumdog]

Best ya do some overtime then as you have a sporty muffler to buy.

Got one for free - how's that for capitalism??

Used the money saved to buy a litre of Famous Grouse which I'm now enjoying.:2thumbsup

[Ocean1]

good grief charlie brown! a few percent of the people of the world own 90% of its wealth. we're rapidly sliding down that scale

Was always somat naggingly familiar about your inane bleating.

Cargo cult mentality.

"Members, leaders, and prophets of Cargo cults maintain that the manufactured goods ("cargo") of the non-native culture have been created by spiritual means, such as through their deities and ancestors, and are intended for the local indigenous people, but that, unfairly, the foreigners have gained control of these objects through attraction of these material goods to themselves by malice or mistake.

Cargo cults thus focus on efforts to overcome what they perceive as the undue influence of the others attracting the goods, by conducting rituals imitating behavior they have observed among the holders of the desired wealth, and presuming that their deities and ancestors will, at last, recognize their own people and send the cargo to them instead."


Piss or get off the pot. Ifn’ you don’t want to pay the asking price for what’s on offer then don’t. Best way possible to deny the rabid corporatist their daily bread, starve the bastards. Too hard for ya? Don’t know how to DIY the flash toys? Then STFU.

[idleidolidyll]

Used the money saved to buy a litre of Famous Grouse which I'm now enjoying.:2thumbsup

pour some down the interweb will ya!?

damit, now i'll have to go get a laphroig!

[davereid]

they'll lie to their progeny. They say they tried to stop it

Come on Idle, you soft-cock.

Exactly HOW MUCH of my production should you be able to take by VIOLENCE before you stop being the good guy ?

Cos I'd like to stop you and your lot using ANY violence. At least I can say I tried to stop it.

[puddytat]

I dont think any of us want communisn,but socialism is rather different philosophy than that....
Im going to use the remaining few years of the capatalist system to buy all the tools i need to SURVIVE...
Plus if you owe money on everthing you own, is it really yours?

[idleidolidyll]

tomorrow i'm off mountainbiking for the weekend, i'll play with my grandkids and hang out with my son.

next week i'm riding around the cape on the katoom and i'll probably go fishing or take a few pinholes on my 5x4

haven't been night riding for a few weeks, how remiss of me!

dog it's depressing being me................oh well, here's my tax and thanks for helping those who need it more than i do

[idleidolidyll]

stop droolin dave, you're embarrassing yerself

[98tls]

tomorrow I'm off mountain biking for the weekend, I'll play with my grandkids and hang out with my son.

next week I'm riding around the cape on the katoom and I'll probably go fishing or take a few pinholes on my 5x4

haven't been night riding for a few weeks, how remiss of me!

dog it's depressing being me................oh well, here's my tax and thanks for helping those who need it more than i do Have fun,whilst your at it consider how we can drug test beneficiaries

[idleidolidyll]

a few more single malts and i can go for a drive.................

[Coyote]

Nothing to see here people. Just vote for act and move along.




You know dude, you start off making a bit of sense (albeit tinged with bias that most of us generally see through) but you really lose me when you start slagging off your debating opponents and the argument generally disintegrates after that.

I'm sure you've got some stuff here that's worthy of debate. If you tone the abuse down a bit we could have a really good discussion.
Sadly, most people will lower themselves to the level of the opponent rather than the opponent raising up. I've all but given up saying anything with a hint of socialism behind it because all you get is the people who don't really follow politics and are only concerned with lowering taxes. Or you get the real hard nut righties that attack the person, not the issue. A good example is the typical school bully. After hearing a witty insult made against them, their automatic response; "... well... uhh... you're gay", followed by the laughter of their minions and themselves. And another example from this thread:

nobody asked you to post it, so f off 2u2
One of the most idiotic posts I've seen on this site.


I for one am building up the skills necessary to start my own business so I don't have to work for a boss. It's a dream really but I'm going to give it a shot. Start out with a day job and doing basic stuff out of the garage and hopefully work my way up into a full time business.

And I know not all bosses are dicks. My boss at work experience is a good bloke.

[idleidolidyll]

Have fun,whilst your at it consider how we can drug test beneficiaries

mate, if ya wanna catch the big fish, drug test capitalists!

but good idea! lets drug test the poor and force them to buy drugs off capitalists at profit (booze, fags, pharma)

[idleidolidyll]

Nothing to see here people. Just vote for act and move along.


yeah, vote for the fascists who started the rot

[jafar]

a few more single malts and i can go for a drive.................

Nice to see your fishing expedition was so successful :Oops:

[idleidolidyll]

"You know dude, you start off making a bit of sense (albeit tinged with bias that most of us generally see through) but you really lose me when you start slagging off your debating opponents and the argument generally disintegrates after that."

dear riffer, as always, when they attack me and the mods do fuck all except join in; how else should i react?

[Coyote]

yeah, vote for the fascists who started the rot
Totally agree!

Hope you read my entire post to know I was on your side...

[98tls]

yeah, vote for the fascists who started the rot Actually every time i switch the tele on at 6 the first few items make me think fascism had its good points.

[idleidolidyll]

Totally agree!

Hope you read my entire post to know I was on your side...

yes, i read your post but the problem is you don't actually know what my 'side' is

you only know what you think it is

[Coyote]

yes, i read your post but the problem is you don't actually know what my 'side' is

you only know what you think it is

You're against the people in power making the lives of the working class harder?

At least that's the impression I got.

[Mikkel]

Get off your arse, get into politics or somehow do something about the matter, if you feel that strongly about it.

I'm quite happy that someone somewhere has found that they can make money by manufacturing nice motorcycles that I can buy and have fun on. :yes:

[davereid]

I dont think any of us want communisn,but socialism is rather different philosophy than that....
Im going to use the remaining few years of the capatalist system to buy all the tools i need to SURVIVE...
Plus if you owe money on everthing you own, is it really yours?

If you owe money is it really yours ? What is capitalisim ? What is socialisim ? What is free trade ?

Idle clearly has strong views, and cares about people, but may mis-understand what he supports.

A PRODUCER
~~~~~~~~~~
Is someone who creates something of value to others, by adding value generally through labour or skill.

So, the guy who takes an empty field, and grows wheat is a producer.

Another Producer, is the guy who takes the wheat, and grinds it in his windmill to make flour.

Next in the chain is the baker. Who takes the wheat, and the yeast from another producer, and makes bread.

Of course he may choose to sell the bread directly to the public.

So could the guy who made the wheat, the flour or the yeast. But they may choose to use

A TRADER
~~~~~~~~
A trader makes nothing, but ADDS value to the producers goods by increasing the potential
market, and helping the producer sell more, at a better price. Once again it is a voluntary
relationship, based on performance. Traders HAVE to perform better than the producer can or
its all over.

A CAPITALIST
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is a trader or a producer who has accumulated a profit, and can now make money without
DIRECTLY producing or trading.

So a producer wants to produce more. He will RENT CAPITAL for INTEREST off a capitalist. It will
buy an extra paddock, or a bigger tractor. The miller will buy another windmill, renting the
capital required from the captalist.

All this is done without violence. By mutual agreement.
There are no losers. It will self balance,because if one producer charges too much,
he will have no customers, and no investors.

BUT.. all of these people will aspire to dominate the market, and ensure they have no
competition. They can't use violence, only cunning. But they can get there.

So we need rules, to ensure that no single supplier strangles the market.
We need rules.. but not theft by violence.

A SOCIALIST
~~~~~~~~~~~
Recognises that the systems discussed above may result in poverty for those who
dont produce, invest or trade.
Socialists believe that this gives then the right to use violence
to re-distribute wealth, to make those who don't produce, trade or invest
enjoy a comfortable
life style.


They like trade barriers. They like border control (as labour is merely another
tradeable commodity.)

They CARE, but they use violence as an essential tool.

And then they cry, when producers ramp down production, as they don't like being slaves.

[scumdog]

Soooo where do people such as I fit in your list???:wait::scratch:

[98tls]

Soooo where do people such as I fit in your list???:wait::scratch:
Speaking as an enviromentalist i abhore your habit of littering our most scenic highways.:cool:

[davereid]

Soooo where do people such as I fit in your list???:wait::scratch:

No one would plant wheat, if they could not ensure they still controlled the land at harvest time.

No one would build a mill, or loan the money either.

Police, and easy access to simple, effective and consistent (uncorrupted) legal process are the basics for productivity.

In Rhodesia, only the legal process has changed... yet it is now a basket case.

[scumdog]

Speaking as an enviromentalist i abhore your habit of littering our most scenic highways.:cool:

Frikkin' expensive and shiney 'litter' - but :cool: litter eh!:msn-wink:

[rainman]

Piss or get off the pot. Ifn’ you don’t want to pay the asking price for what’s on offer then don’t. Best way possible to deny the rabid corporatist their daily bread, starve the bastards. Too hard for ya? Don’t know how to DIY the flash toys? Then STFU.

Harsh. But fair.

[Sanx]

rotflmfao! most of medicines real advances were made in state funded universities! capitalists merely profited from them.

Quote one.

As much as it pains me to agree with Komrade Staliiin here, there have been quite a few medical advances in state-funded universities and hospitals. First heart transplant, in the Groote Schuur Hospital in Western Cape, for instance. First IVF baby born at Oldham and District General Hospital in England and penicillin discovered (admittedly, by chance) at St Mary's hospital in London.

But of course, there have been plenty of discoveries at private research hospitals across the world, notably the John Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore, who have turned out discovery after discovery. Capitalism also play its part by taking the initial discoveries and spending billions on research to produce the drugs that we now take for granted; you don't see medical advancement coming out of communist countries to anywhere near the same extent.

But of course, Komrade Staliiin will just spout off some shite about how he didn't mean communism, before going of on some half-arsed vague definition of socialism that differs from everyone else's. Or he'll just ignore the points he can't argue against and hope people don't realise. Or he'll just type in 'yaaaaaaaaww, boooooooring' or some such highly-intelligent response.

Still, Labour's all about helping the disadvantaged and encouraging the terminally-delusional to participate in normal activities is just one way we, the capitalist privileged few, can help the mentally-ill feel like they're a valued part of society, instead of being a pain in the arse.

[Sanx]

yes, i read your post but the problem is you don't actually know what my 'side' is

you only know what you think it is


Yeah, because you never actually state what your side is. You just attack everyone else's position with (at best) half-baked ideas, conspiracy theories, quotations taken out of context, abuse, and complete tripe strung together in barely literate sentences.

State what your side is and what policies you actually support (and by which I mean real policies, not just nebulous statements about protecting the worker from the evils of the capitalist overlords) and you might start to get some intelligent discussion.

Fuck it - why the hell do I bother? Trying to get sense out of this iiidiot is harder than getting blood out of a stone. (Obviously I'm trying to get the blood or a repressed worker out of a stone owned by rich capitalists - goes without saying.)

Fuckwiiit, welcome to an exclusive club. My ignore list. Your presence on my ignore list will be a lonely one, but I'm not entirely sure your ego would be able to co-exist with anyone else.

[Flatcap]

Capitalism is failing society, not just here but everywhere. Labour, the centrist party, won’t make it better. National, the right wingers will make it worse.

Yes - we need a Bonevolent Dictatorship with me at the helm

[Hitcher]

Gahh! Foam, froth, bile, spit and of course pus. Spew and assorted other bodily fluids, including purilent syphilitic exudates. Burn them all now! Spastic fulminations and facial tics. Seething hoardes of barbarians wait at the gate. Fuck them all! Now.

[Oscar]

The failure of capitalism (again)
<o></o>
It’s happening again, capitalism is failing society. Capitalism and free trade, markets, exchanges…they’re all failing society for exactly the reasons they always fail it: they serve the minority, the greedy few.
<o></o>
We don't live in a country, countries have sovereignty. We live in just another commodity to be bought and sold by anyone from anywhere with the money to do so. And we are so damn small there are millions of people out there who can buy us with change left over.
Our businesses, our resources, our sovereignty; it’s all being sold to the very people who manipulate the system to make it easier for themselves to buy the system ad infinitum.
<o></o>
Our farmers sell produce to the rich countries and expect us on lower wages in NZ to pay the same prices. Increasingly those ‘kiwi’ farmers are selling out and the ‘kiwi’ is fading. Like other developed nations our future is Monsanto and the other monopolies, the users without honest social consciences.
Those same companies don’t really want us to be able to afford our food, they need low wages to feed the rich elsewhere.
<o></o>
I ask you, what use is a food export market when your own countrymen can’t afford what you grow? What use is such business to the society it operates in? Dumb shit indeed.
<o></o>
Traders are forcing fuel prices up and at the same time; fleecing the planet of wealth. They’re driving our costs up while multi national and even local companies are driving our wages down on the open market. We compete with foreigners for the scraps off the table.
<o></o>
‘Free trade’ is closer to cheap slavery than social benefit. It allows the greedy rich to buy our arses at a time when we don’t have the power to fight back. Free trade is an abrogation of social responsibility in our nation. Gestures disguised as charity don’t cut it. When they’re driving income down and buying property, resources and control; the charity is a cheap price to pay for 4 million servants.
<o></o>
Markets and exchanges ensure the rich get the best of everything. The kicker is they also manipulate the currency markets to make it easier for themselves to afford the commodities and resources. Sometimes surreptitiously as here where they’re just buying our entire economy, and to places like <st1:country-region><st1>Iraq</st1></st1:country-region> where the Yanks actually had the arrogance to draft laws in a foreign sovereign nation donating that economy to foreign corporations in perpetuity!
<o></o>
Capitalism is failing society, not just here but everywhere. Labour, the centrist party, won’t make it better. National, the right wingers will make it worse.
<o>
</o>Bend over people, put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye, you’ll soon be property if you’re not already.


Nice rant.
The only problem is that you fail to present any evidence whatsoever to support your theorem.

[Finn]

Faaaarrrrrrrt.

[riffer]

Welcome back Finn.

A little air freshener anyone? :whistle:

[Big Dave]

I have 4 ipods, 2 motorcycles and a Benz. I lurrrve Capitalism.

[alanzs]

So whats the news here? Maybe it's time to change medications? Enjoy tourself while you're here....

[Swoop]

Nice rant.
The only problem is that you fail to present any evidence whatsoever to support your theorem.
He never does.
Sanx has the appropriate response.

[Hitcher]

Sanx has the appropriate response.

So does Finn.

[Big Dave]

At least you don't have to strike a match after Sanx

[devnull]

mmmm... yep... looks like socialism is the answer to all our problems... NOT.

Like it or not, Labour has done what every other socialist govt has done - screw the voters. We can no longer afford to subsidise social experimentation - if it hasn't worked throughout history, why would it work now?

http://www.namyth.com/SocialismWORKS!/

[idleidolidyll]

He never does.
Sanx has the appropriate response.

nah, last time sanx replied with his nonsense he expected me to take the entire food production industry outof the economic equation so that he could say Labour had fucked up the economy.
Not only that, he tried very very hard to blame the sub prime mortgage failure and its flow ons as well as rising fuel prices on the Labour government.

His post was ridiculous propaganda and never even deserved laughter let alone a reply. Much the same as Dave Reid's constant claims of violent tax taking etc.

Of course they never made mention of the fact that National has, like Labour, refused to take away GST or reduce fuel tax.

Sanx is as deep as a puddle, Dave isn't even thatdeep

[Big Dave]

Dave isn't even thatdeep

Internet dribble needs no Plimsoll line.

[stanko]

When you are dead you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

[Indiana_Jones]

Welcome to Helengrad comrades

<img src="http://myninjaplease.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/319406593_65fb5beb80.jpg">

-Indy

[svr]

I have 4 ipods, 2 motorcycles and a Benz. I lurrrve Capitalism.

NOOOOOOOO, Capitalism lurrrves you.

[svr]

It is a reliable disappointment to see another NZ political `discussion' so simplistic, polarised and personally hostile. No wonder we have no imaginative sense for a better world, and keep getting what we deserve.
Utopian visions, anyone?

[Sanx]

It is a reliable disappointment to see another NZ political `discussion' so simplistic, polarised and personally hostile. No wonder we have no imaginative sense for a better world, and keep getting what we deserve.
Utopian visions, anyone?

Any political discussion that ends up involving iiidiot is ultimately pointless. His viewpoint changes from post to post (sometimes within a single post), his arguments are generally semi-literate, filled with quotations that have been fabricated or taken out of context, stated 'facts' that bear no relation to reality and contain such astounding leaps of logic that trying to follow them induces laughter, nausea or a migraine; sometimes all three.

There have been plenty of intelligent, semi-rational political discussions on KB. However, once the iiimbecile joins in, they degenerate into an orgy of abuse, name-calling and hence into complete tripe. And yes, I'm as guilty as anyone else. I have a very low tolerance of idiots and this particular iiidiot never fails to make me bite.

[Forest]

nah, last time sanx replied with his nonsense he expected me to take the entire food production industry outof the economic equation so that he could say Labour had fucked up the economy.
Not only that, he tried very very hard to blame the sub prime mortgage failure and its flow ons as well as rising fuel prices on the Labour government.


Government policy has played a very big part in the development of the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

In particular the following two policies have led to NZers making disproportionate investments into residential real-estate :

1. No capital gains tax on residential property investments.
2. Enabling LAQC tax losses to be applied against investors' personal taxable income (thereby enabling investors to gain deductions on their personal taxable income).

[Sanx]

Government policy has played a very big part in the development of the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

In particular the following two policies have led to NZers making disproportionate investments into residential real-estate :

1. No capital gains tax on residential property investments.
2. Enabling LAQC tax losses to be applied against investors' personal taxable income (thereby enabling investors to gain deductions on their personal taxable income).

And as I can now see what the iiidiot wrote, it's pretty easy for me to contradict the two things he's accused me of. The easiest way to demonstrate this, of course, is simply to link to the post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1583864&postcount=198) I believe the iiidiot's referring to.

But, just in case he can't be bothered reading it:

I never said to take out the entire food industry out of the equation when considering the economy; I said that if it hadn't have been for the large increases in the global commodity prices for dairy and wood, NZ's balance of payments deficit would look much worse than it did. It was the global commodity prices that helped mask the fact that increased compliance and employment costs had stifled trade and industry.
I never mentioned anything about the sub-prime mortgage fiasco or Labour's (non-) involvement in it. For the record, iiidiot, this particular global financial fuck-up had nothing to do with the policies of Labour, though Labour's economic policies have reduced NZ's ability to weather any global economic downturn that may result from it and other factors.


The 18th century British playwright and politician Richard Sheridan once accused a rival in a speech in parliament of being "indebted to his memory for his jests and his imagination for his facts". The same accusation can be levelled at the iiidiot except he doesn't make any jests. His highly selective recall of what people have previously said combined with his provision of fictional facts and figures have only one aim; to support whatever viewpoint he happens to have adopted for that particular post (or paragraph).

Perhaps he'll try a little harder next time, though as a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, the idea of expending effort on anything is probably alien to him.

[Robert Taylor]

You know, I basically agree that unchecked multinational capitalism is destroying this world. Just evidence the totally needless hike in fuel prices alone on the back of speculation and god knows what else. These parasites subscribe to the fatal human flaws of greed, power and corruption. But then those same flaws are just as apparent in full blown socialists, Messrs Clark and Cullen being ''shining'' examples. And why does ''socialist'' China allow its people to be used as battery hens by the multinationals?
I think irrespective of which side of the political fence one sits on we can all agree that there is a hell of a lot of exploitation going on. I subscribe to ''a fair days return for a fair days work'' I also subsrcibe to helping those genuinely in need but what I despise most are those at both the very top and at the very bottom openly milking the system.

[MisterD]

And why does ''socialist'' China allow its people to be used as battery hens by the multinationals?

Maybe because the capitalist economic boom in China is lifting more people out of poverty every month than the socialist politics of jealousy could ever dream of?

[Clockwork]

You know, I basically agree that unchecked multinational capitalism is destroying this world. Just evidence the totally needless hike in fuel prices alone on the back of speculation and god knows what else. These parasites subscribe to the fatal human flaws of greed, power and corruption. But then those same flaws are just as apparent in full blown socialists, Messrs Clark and Cullen being ''shining'' examples. And why does ''socialist'' China allow its people to be used as battery hens by the multinationals?
I think irrespective of which side of the political fence one sits on we can all agree that there is a hell of a lot of exploitation going on. I subscribe to ''a fair days return for a fair days work'' I also subsrcibe to helping those genuinely in need but what I despise most are those at both the very top and at the very bottom openly milking the system.

It seems to me that as soon as you start putting social contraints upon capitalism you are in fact upon the pathway of socialism. From there the debate simply becomes about how far to go.

[Robert Taylor]

It seems to me that as soon as you start putting social contraints upon capitalism you are in fact upon the pathway of socialism. From there the debate simply becomes about how far to go.

Indeed, a balancing act.

[SPman]

It seems to me that as soon as you start putting social contraints upon capitalism you are in fact upon the pathway of socialism. From there the debate simply becomes about how far to go.
A balancing act that seems to be almost impossible to attain, given most countries efforts.
Why do most people on this site equate Socialism, with communist dictatorship? A repressive regime is a repressive regime, whether it be communist dictator or a big business controlled right wing totalitarian state. People suffer under both ends of the scale,

A governments first obligation is to it's people - not big business, not vested power groups, the people, without whom, the government wouldn't exist. Unfortunately it seems that governments conveniently forget this, become arrogant, corrupted and venal. Multi national corporations seem to go the same way - as their power grows, so, too, do they get more arrogant, corrupted and more and more venal. Ultimately, it ends up the same - a small group of people having power and control over the rest, the 10% of the people owning 90% of the assets scenario.

Thomas Jefferson had some things to say on it that are as relevant now as they were 200 yrs ago:-

- "Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe." - lost the battle on that one

- " Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." - nope, that's on the slippery slope as well - the public seems to want to be ignorant

- "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - about time a few more people pulled their blinkers off, walked away from their toys and gizmos and actually looked a little harder at what's going on in the world and their countries

- "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered...” - hmm, sounds like the sub prime criminality, foisted on the world by greedy, unscrupulous bankers, aided and abetted by a venal corrupt US government!

- " I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - well, he failed on that one - multi national corporations anyone.

- " Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." – put up with arseholes like Bush, Blair and co with restrictive laws smothering liberty, movement, communications etc and believing all their induced hype about “terrorists”

- "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - and when they do speak up, it's usually too late!

and the one I like best:-
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[Ixion]

It is one of the foremost duties of every honest subject of Her Majesty to resist, on all possible occasions, whatsoever is proposed by Her Majesty's ministers, whomsoever they may be. Such resistance is the duty which we all owe to generations yet unborn.

[MisterD]

Why do most people on this site equate Socialism, with communist dictatorship?

Because Socialism is all about control, and it's easiest to make the argument if you use the extreme case.

[Swoop]

Maybe because the capitalist economic boom in China is lifting more people out of poverty every month than the socialist politics of jealousy could ever dream of?

Wage rates going up by 15% per annum. Also, labour laws are starting to be enforced. A lot of companies are looking at alternatives to the chinese option for production and Pakistan, Vietnam and India are reaping the benefit.
Unlike NZ which is expanding the benefit...

[Clockwork]

Wage rates going up by 15% per annum. Also, labour laws are starting to be enforced. A lot of companies are looking at alternatives to the chinese option for production and Pakistan, Vietnam and India are reaping the benefit.
Unlike NZ which is expanding the benefit...

Yes, unfettered Capitalism will always serve its own inertests ahead of those of any society. Unless its compelled to do otherwise. Presumably that is why Socilaism will always need to have some element of compulsion.

[Oscar]

Government policy has played a very big part in the development of the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

In particular the following two policies have led to NZers making disproportionate investments into residential real-estate :

1. No capital gains tax on residential property investments.
2. Enabling LAQC tax losses to be applied against investors' personal taxable income (thereby enabling investors to gain deductions on their personal taxable income).

Eh?
What "sub prime mortgage crisis"?
NZ doesn't have any "sub prime" lenders by US definitions.

[slofox]

Maybe because the capitalist economic boom in China is lifting more people out of poverty every month than the socialist politics of jealousy could ever dream of?

With reference to this, you might like to check out the documentary "China Blue" (if you can find it - was on Sky Documentary channel some months ago). The workers featured in this doco were hardly being lifted out of poverty......

[Forest]

Eh?
What "sub prime mortgage crisis"?
NZ doesn't have any "sub prime" lenders by US definitions.

Quite right!

I should really have said "housing bubble".

[Robert Taylor]

Because Socialism is all about control, and it's easiest to make the argument if you use the extreme case.

I would hasten to add that there is one very prolific contributor who always equates capitalism as the extreme. What I am saying is that there is a way without the extremes. The trouble is greed, power and corruption precludes that happening.

[svr]

I would hasten to add that there is one very prolific contributor who always equates capitalism as the extreme. What I am saying is that there is a way without the extremes. The trouble is greed, power and corruption precludes that happening.

Early Socialist thought was actually wonderfully utopian and idealistic - encompassing timeless humanistic values. The recent bloody Marxist regimes (= State seizure of assets, ideological repression, `temporary' dictatorship, etc) were clearly far removed from those values.
Perhaps the real tragedy of the failure of `actual existing socialism' is that we no longer believe that there can be something better / more humane / more sustainable than the the current global corporate antidemocratic nightmare. The scariest bit is that Capitalism has itself become an ideologically sealed system with no real opposition.

[davereid]

...bloody Marxist regimes (= State seizure of assets,.. etc) were clearly far removed from those values....

The seizure of assets is how socialism works.
It's an absolutely necessary part of any socialist system.

If the state did not seize your assets (particularly your income) by force, it would be relying on voluntary donations.

We would call that charity !

[MisterD]

The scariest bit is that Capitalism has itself become an ideologically sealed system with no real opposition.

The trouble is that capitalism has become bastardised too - there is no place in capitalism for government-imposed trade barriers.

[Robert Taylor]

The seizure of assets is how socialism works.
It's an absolutely necessary part of any socialist system.

If the state did not seize your assets (particularly your income) by force, it would be relying on voluntary donations.

We would call that charity !

Actually in some ways socialism can be more insidious than communism, ''communism in drag'' as it were. I suspect many of our so called leaders are in fact closet communists and they have worked their way into power via a false front. Such people are just as corrupt as the uncaring types of capitalists.

[svr]

Communism was supposed to be the later (transcendent) form of post-state socialism. The State never withered of course, it grew.
The idea of the extended family, friends and associates living / working with shared production resources minus landlords / taxmen / central government / wars / fat-rich-bastards taking all the money and hot women etc. was a general utopian dream long before Capitalism or Marx's critique or theory of History.
Now that individual property rights are conceptually inalienable no such form of communism / socialism is really possible or even desirable, apparently.
A few pesky flies in the global capitalist champagne of course - the bloodiest century in human history, escalating state violence `legitimized' by stupid fearful masses, mass economic poverty, real exploitation, spiritual poverty, imminent collapse of our biological life-systems, etc., for a few starters. Enlightenment derailed!
In terms of how we collectively satisfy our needs and wants, maybe its time again for some big, bright ideas?