NZ vs rest of world: Toughness and enforcement of traffic laws

[Macstar]

What are your thoughts on NZ's number of, and toughness / enforcement of traffic laws in comparison to other developed countries? Are we tougher than others? Are our fines and penalities comparable?

Is Australia any better?, Canada? USA?

Many potential cans of worms to be opened with these questions, I know. I am trying very hard myself to remain diplomatic and not have a bitch and whine about the situation here - but am genuinely interested to gain a little perspective... is it really that bad here in NZ (traffic rules and enforcement-wise?). Should I pack my bags and bike and head for a more biker friendly country??!!

[Hitcher]

What does Sharia law have to say about traffic offences?

[Big Dave]

What does Sharia law have to say about traffic offences?

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[firefighter]

I just spent a month in the U.S and I had a ride-along with the Las Vegas metro Cops, and they didn't give a shit about traffic offences, unless you were being a complete idiot they didn't really care, and unless you really really deserved it they generally just tell ya off.So yes I do think it's regulated VERY harshly here, I don't know why other than revenue collection as our roads are far superior in markings, signage, and condition, AND our speed limits are slower (significantly)

[Headbanger]

Funny thing, 5 years in Aussie, I got pulled over and ticketed just once.

Come back to NZ and I get three tickets in 2 weeks.

When I was in Aus the only time I ever saw police was when they had the sirens on and were going somewhere in a hell of a hurry, or when 10 of em were manning a speed trap.


I think the main issue is kiwi's are shitheads.



Sorry:crybaby:

[jimbo600]

Aussie is really anal about infringements. 1kmh over and you're done.

UK are more tolerant towards speeding and if you pass the tried and true attitude test you'll get away with a warning.

NZ, I believe have hammered roading at the expense of other forms of policing and we are now seeing the manifestations of that policy in Sth Auckland.

It would help if the traffic depts actually policed accident black spots.

[Swoop]

As long as our limited police force is concentratin on the serious issues.
Auckland hasn't had any sort of serious crime (Murders, Armed robbery, etc) in ages, so they can concentrate on minor road offences now.

[vifferman]

We would be very similar to Victoria, seeing as how LTNZ likes to adopt anything the Victoria polis think is a good idea.
Like many countries, there's an obsession with policing speed, because it's easy to measure and a good moneyspinner. Like many countries, the lawmakers and enforcers have lost sight of the primary focus of our rules'n'regulations: safe motoring. F'rinstance: a polis will happliy scream though heavy holiday traffic in order to catch a vicious criminal he's pinged with his raygun going 12km/h over the limit, even though the pursuit in itself endangers other motorists.
F'rinstance: to meet quotas, a polis will crack a u-turn and cause an accident. Luckily, all polis drivers are highly trained, and their cars never have 'physical interactions' with other vehicles. :rolleyes:

It would be OK if traffic laws were enforced more rigidly, as long as it included running red lights, failure to indicate, following too closely, talking on cellphones, failure to keep left, etc etc, and as long as it was sensible. I mean, what's the point of pinging someone for 10km/h over the limit on the Canterbury Plains, when there's very little traffic? Or for passing a slow-moving, fume-belching, shit-spraying stock truck quickly and efficiently, and momentarily exceeding the speedlimt by a few km/h?

[NOMIS]

As long as our limited police force is concentratin on the serious issues.
Auckland hasn't had any sort of serious crime (Murders, Armed robbery, etc) in ages, so they can concentrate on minor road offences now.

So what about the 3 homocides in south auckland?

[Swoop]

So what about the 3 homocides in south auckland?
Three gays? What did they do?

[firefighter]

So what about the 3 homocides in south auckland?

I think he was taking the piss mate..... at least I hope so!

[portokiwi]

Portugal the traffic police or GNR are strict but fair.
I never once saw a police officer in Spain.
france had so many speed camreas it wasnt funny. Well it was till the fines arrived.
But the uniforms are so cool.:Police:
Got to remember that they all have BMWs and other Euro bikes and cars.
Very fast.

[Macstar]

I think we all have a fairly good grasp of the current situation in NZ. I researched and posted some facts last year in another thread:

*In the last 12 months there have been 408 deaths on NZ roads, Police want to reduce this to 300.
*The instances of Police recorded speed camera offences (classified seperately to Traffic Offenses / infringements) have increased marginally from 363,578 in 1996/7 to 394,585 in 2005/6.
*The number of traffic offenses / infringements have increased from 513,563 to 1,064,489 in the same period.
*In 2004/5, (12 month period) a total of 1.6 million traffic infringements were issued (speed cameras and cop issued). If you consider that around 50% of Kiwis drive vehicles on the road (underage and old geezers), that means about 80% of NZ drivers received a traffic fine that year.

Question is, do other countries give 80% of their driving citizens traffic infringements on an annual basis?

[K1W1]

Cops are getting a lot tougher here in Colorado AND are getting pretty sneaky about where they hide with their speed guns! The speed limits are are higher though - 65 MPH or 75 MPH on the freeways. Cops don't usually mind 10 MPH or so higher but I got stung recently in my cage doing 65MPH in a 45MPH zone - ugh!

It seems like the cops are very tough in NZ these days... what is the tolerance levels like? 110 KPH on the motorways acceptable?

[Tank]

Depends - I think in general that NZ is BETTER than most of the UK and US.

Ive driven a lot in both.

In the US - yep cities etc as mentioned above are not too bad - but drive between cities and every little hick town will try and get ya - its their main revenue stream and local coppers get cash bonuses for it.

In the UK you get pulled over a lot less - BUT there are over 4000 fixed speed cameras alone. In london they are everywhere.

Anyway -0 Ive driven here the best part of 15 years and only been pulled over twice - and Im not slow in the car. Im guessing its more how you drive - time place and all that

[spudchucka]

I think we all have a fairly good grasp of the current situation in NZ. I researched and posted some facts last year in another thread:

*In the last 12 months there have been 408 deaths on NZ roads, Police want to reduce this to 300.
*The instances of Police recorded speed camera offences (classified seperately to Traffic Offenses / infringements) have increased marginally from 363,578 in 1996/7 to 394,585 in 2005/6.
*The number of traffic offenses / infringements have increased from 513,563 to 1,064,489 in the same period.
*In 2004/5, (12 month period) a total of 1.6 million traffic infringements were issued (speed cameras and cop issued). If you consider that around 50% of Kiwis drive vehicles on the road (underage and old geezers), that means about 80% of NZ drivers received a traffic fine that year.

Question is, do other countries give 80% of their driving citizens traffic infringements on an annual basis?

This says more about the stupidity of the average motorist than anything else.

[Macstar]

This says more about the stupidity of the average motorist than anything else.

"Stupid" for not evading the law? or "stupid" for not complying?

[Swoop]

*In the last 12 months there have been 408 deaths on NZ roads, Police want to reduce this to 300.
That is never, ever going to happen. Period.
The road toll sits around 500. The population has grown substantially, yet they still trot out the old propaganda of "under 400" (or whatever the favourite number of the day is).
They are attacking the sympton but not the cause, and the brainwashed cannot see this.

[vifferman]

*In the last 12 months there have been 408 deaths on NZ roads, Police want to reduce this to 300.
Firstly, is that the Polis, or the bureaucrats?
Secondly, the statistics regarding road deaths and injuries are BOLLOCKS.
They should be stated as Deaths/injuries per vehicle kilometres traveled.


This says more about the stupidity of the average motorist than anything else.
Not necessarily; it might mean that the laws (or enforcement thereof) are out of step with the will of the general public.
Aren't our civil servants (politicians, bureaucrats, and polis oroficers) supposed to serving US, and following the will of the people (at least, in theory)? If a large proportion of the public are deliberately choosing to disobey said laws, what does that tell us?

[vifferman]

They are attacking the sympton but not the cause, and the brainwashed cannot see this.
Yup.
The Gubmint supposedly has a plan to lower the road toll (or is that Rode Troll?!?)
It's Education, Engineering and Enforcement.
Education consists of bullshit ads about if you speed, you're a criminal, and if you speed, you will die.
Engineering consists of robbing us blind with rad taxes, and NOT spending them on improving the roads. And if they are spent on roading, it's on cheescutters.
Enforcement consists of a blind focus on speed, not on other things that endanger our safe motoring, such as following too closely, inattention, driving a Japanese import, or being a braindead moron. 'Enforcement' should be renamed 'Extracting', as in "extracting dollars to finance election year bribes".

[Headbanger]

I can't see anything wrong with having a target to aim for, And if reached, lower it again.

That aside, IMO safer roads and modern wagons have more to do with lowering the road toll then any police action, No matter how many tickets the policy hand out it doesn't take the "human" out of the equation. Speed doesn't kill, crashing does.

[vifferman]

What are your thoughts on NZ's number of traffic laws
Too many, some of which are unnecessary, duplicating existing laws. Like, we don't need a law banning cellphones while driving - it's already covered under careless / dangerous use of a motor vehicle. If you cause and accident while wanking on on your cellphone, that should cover it.

The GreatUnwashedMasses have become brainwashed: every time something 'untoward' happens, they cry, "There should be a law against it!'" (Or, alternatively, "The Gubmint should do summat about tit!"

Fuck off! There are already too many laws, rules and regulations, and not enough of taking personal responsibilty for your own actions.

[Swoop]

I can't see anything wrong with having a target to aim for,
Yup. I have a target that I would like to arrive in my bank account (each week)...$10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000.00

Glad I have a realistic target to strive for.

[firefighter]

Depends - I think in general that NZ is BETTER than most of the UK and US.

Ive driven a lot in both.

In the US - yep cities etc as mentioned above are not too bad - but drive between cities and every little hick town will try and get ya - its their main revenue stream and local coppers get cash bonuses for it.

In the UK you get pulled over a lot less - BUT there are over 4000 fixed speed cameras alone. In london they are everywhere.

Anyway -0 Ive driven here the best part of 15 years and only been pulled over twice - and Im not slow in the car. Im guessing its more how you drive - time place and all that

Well I drove from Las Vegas (Nevada) to Arizona, back up to vegas, up to Utah, back down to vegas, to L.A (California) and then up to San Francisco and hardly saw anyone getting tickets. I'd have to disagree on it being less harsh here than the states, we cruised at between 10-15 mph over the limit everywhere, 10 mph is 16 km/h and 15mph is 24 km/h, and here we get pinged at 11km/h over in a passing maneuvere......I'm pretty sure it's safe to say it's way harsher here......

[Forest]

I've been around the world, and driven in many different countries.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with NZ isn't the enforcement of traffic laws but rather the absolutely shitty driving. Seriously, NZ has some of the worst drivers I have ever observed in first world countries.

I don't know why this but I expect it is a consequence of many separate factors e.g. inadequate driver training, easily obtained driver licenses, cheap import vehicles, entrenched hoon culture etc

[Swoop]

Seriously, NZ has some of the worst drivers I have ever observed in first world countries.
NZ is a first-world country?
Buahahahahahahahaha

Tui time!

[popelli]

I left over 9 years ago

used to collect 2-3 speeding tickets a year in NZ and get stopped 2-3 times a year in random breath tests

havn't been stopped or ticketed once in 9 years of riding in the uk or europe

visited nz about 5 years ago, plods every where, driving standards totally appalling, worse than most third world countries and the traffic in auckland was more congested than wher eI live in the uk

[James Deuce]

This says more about the stupidity of the average motorist than anything else.

Doesn't it though?


"Stupid" for not evading the law? or "stupid" for not complying?

Take your pick. It's not rocket science.

[mstriumph]

...............*In the last 12 months there have been 408 deaths on NZ roads, Police want to reduce this to 300.
.........................

sorry - nice thought but it ain't gonna happen ...
once they are dead they are dead

:dodge:

[Blackshear]

sorry - nice thought but it ain't gonna happen ...
once they are dead they are dead

:dodge:
Sadly, that made me laugh a little :Pokey:

[SPman]

Seriously, NZ has some of the worst drivers I have ever observed in first world countries.

You've obviously never driven in Perth!

W.A. - 5k over and you get a ticket! Open road limit 110kph, but they seem to be intent on lowering this by stealth, because of the country road toll. Drivers, normally by themselves, in the early hours of the morning are killing themselves at a steady pace, in the country. So,they immediately target speeding drivers during the day - not bothering to note, tiredness, errant wildlife, 3m wide sealed lane widths with a 1m gravel edging, normally lined by trees, that give you no margin for error if you make a mistake! ie - Pollies here are as much obsessed with speed and "hoonish" behaviour as NZ. Spin your tyres around a cop - lose your car for 28 days!
40k over the limit - $1000 fine plus (currently) 48hrs immediate l.o.l and probably a "hoon law" charge of some sort - dangerous driving or whatever. Radar detectors are currently legal, but there are moves to come into line with the rest of Aus, and make you an Arch-criminal if you dare "cheat" (the cops out of their money, I suppose)
The good thing is cops are spread thinner over the ground and, outside the cities, away from the main freeways, you don't see many.......

[vamr]

Here in Taipei it's fairly tame as far as inforcement of traffic offences go. It's best not to stop for anything, especially a downed scooter.

Saying that my gf did get a ticket the other day for being 2km over the limit on the freeway... go figure.

[alanzs]

Speeds are slower here and the fines are much less than Lost Angeles.

In a bad week, I got three tickets in L.A. Each ticket had multiple infractions. One had five infractions; passing too fast, going too fast, riding on sidewalk, tires too low, muffler too loud (the last three were thrown out). The cop was in a bad mood. I had to go to traffic school for 24 hours (Six nights @ four hours a night, spread over a month and a half) and it cost about $400. Insurance also went up about 50%.

But, I had a couple times over the years where I was going 130-150 mph on the freeway and got stopped and the cops (both were CHP's) didn't give me a ticket and just wanted to talk about my Busa and motorcycles in general. Assuming they could have caught me, they could have impounded my bike and thrown me in jail for reckless driving. These were motorcycle cops though.

Got a red light ticket once (I was 6/10 of a second in the intersection on Sunset Blvd in Beverly Hills). It cost $300, plus court costs. Ouch!

Generally, when being pulled over by the LAPD, they draw their guns and point them at you. Not a fun experience. I never say thank you after getting the ticket, needless to say. :2guns:

[Lord Zod]

I live in Perth, Western Australia at the moment and start shaking whenever I see a cop because they will nearly always pull you over and try to ping you for something :angry2:

[CookMySock]

Here in Taipei it's fairly tame as far as inforcement of traffic offences go. It's best not to stop for anything, especially a downed scooter.This sounds interesting.. do tell us more !

I think we do ok in NZ. I haven't driven in any other country so I have no comparison. I haven't had a ticket of any sort for probably 15 years. I get stopped ALL the time. Today it was like this ;

"yes officer?"
"just a License check"
"my license is in my motorcycle jacket sir"
"in your motorcyle jacket?"
"yes sir. I have a class 1 full and a class 6 learners and exemption for my 650 blah di blah, so I leave it all in my jacket pocket."
"oh, ok. But you do have a license? "
"Yes sir."
Officer checks rego, wof, and ruc.
"I suppose I should take the Learners plates down - I just dropped my learner son at soccer" :banana:
"yes, well there is only one person int he car. hrm you don't look like a criminal, or a learner!" (officer grins)

I volunteered my personal details, but he refused and sent me on my way. $200 fine evaded. Three times now. Did I even have a class 6 learners ? yes, I do.

Many many times I get let off stuff - I moan like hell when I don't, but there is lots I get away with. Usually I can offer a reeeeeel good explanation, and they are like "oh, I see. Ok well carry on then." Usually the explanation is kosher lol.

Once I had a vehicle with no WOF or rego. I drove around this s-bend and UH OH, nowhere to go! straight into a checkpoint! dammit! So I hauled up short of the area, lept of of the vehicle before he could lift his finger and ran up to him "do you know what the status of the road is with the kids marathon today?" and he was like "wha? don't know nuthin about it sorry". So I said "ok thank you officer" and ran back to my vehicle, lept in, and drove straight past him. I don't know if realised later he got done or what. Was there a kids marathon on that day ? no, there wasn't.


DB

[scumdog]

"Stupid" for not evading the law? or "stupid" for not complying?

Just stupid.

They think stupid, they drive stupid, they are stupid.

[scumdog]

Well I drove from Las Vegas (Nevada) to Arizona, back up to vegas, up to Utah, back down to vegas, to L.A (California) and then up to San Francisco and hardly saw anyone getting tickets. I'd have to disagree on it being less harsh here than the states, we cruised at between 10-15 mph over the limit everywhere, 10 mph is 16 km/h and 15mph is 24 km/h, and here we get pinged at 11km/h over in a passing maneuvere......I'm pretty sure it's safe to say it's way harsher here......

And we're on waay worser roads here too..

[firefighter]

And we're on waay worser roads here too..

Errrrrm, nope actually they aren't......the roads there (not including the interstate) are so terrible it can be very difficult to even see where the lanes are.........the roads here are far superior in condition

[scumdog]

Errrrrm, nope actually they aren't......the roads there (not including the interstate) are so terrible it can be very difficult to even see where the lanes are.........the roads here are far superior in condition

But the roads you mentioned are way better than our SH1, I've driven then several times - and their 'side-roads' (which can be rougher) than ours don't have the same volume of traffic, I've driven them too.

[firefighter]

But the roads you mentioned are way better than our SH1, I've driven then several times - and their 'side-roads' (which can be rougher) than ours don't have the same volume of traffic, I've driven them too.

Yes but your comparing the Interstate with SH1, I already said not including the interstate, which I will definately admit is far superior, (I love the interstate it's brilliant) I'm mainly meaning the city roads (outer city roads) and places like the spaghetti bowl - inner freeways etc...I found them to be really rough, no painted lanes just very old cats-eyes which hrdly showed up at all.did you notice that the traffic never ever gets as bad as here? I found a traffic jam was at least moving at 30mph at the slowest.....

[Ocean1]

Fuck off! There are already too many laws, rules and regulations, and not enough of taking personal responsibilty for your own actions.

Sickening innit.

Let's restrict the number of liqour stores in south orks 'cause that's wot causes murders... :pinch:

[Ocean1]

I can't see anything wrong with having a target to aim for, And if reached, lower it again.

What's wrong with it is that the effect is not linear wrt the cause.

Check the stat's for fatalities/Km over the last few decades. Large gains slowly reducing to small ones (timing more in line with improved vehicle specifications than anything else) and then for the last decade fuck all improvement in spite of massively increased emphisis on speed enforcement.

We're past the point of deminishing returns and well into the realms of fantasy.

[Ocean1]

You've obviously never driven in Perth!

Was out east of Mandura last year, counted 12 changes in posted speed limit in 9Km. OK, 2 of 'em were on account of roadworks, but that's fuckin' ridiculous. What' smore the one cop on the stretch had 3 cars pulled over, maybe 40 metres after one of the 50Kph roadworks signs...

[Headbanger]

What's wrong with it is that the effect is not linear wrt the cause.

Check the stat's for fatalities/Km over the last few decades. Large gains slowly reducing to small ones (timing more in line with improved vehicle specifications than anything else) and then for the last decade fuck all improvement in spite of massively increased emphisis on speed enforcement.

We're past the point of deminishing returns and well into the realms of fantasy.


Nothing wrong with having a target, There is always room for improvement. The major reductions may have already been done, But you would slightly retarded to say that's good enough, Lets just sit on it.

[Ocean1]

Nothing wrong with having a target,

Couldn’t agree more, as long as it’s a valid one and you’re using your own ammunition. What’s the target in the case of the current focus on speed enforcement? It sure as hell isn’t the reduction of accidents and injuries, the numbers clearly show it doesn’t work.

[Macstar]

What's wrong with it is that the effect is not linear wrt the cause.

Check the stat's for fatalities/Km over the last few decades. Large gains slowly reducing to small ones (timing more in line with improved vehicle specifications than anything else) and then for the last decade fuck all improvement in spite of massively increased emphisis on speed enforcement.

We're past the point of deminishing returns and well into the realms of fantasy.

I am impressed with this comment. Anyone who knows anything about statistics & mathematical modelling (and/or just has plain common sense) will know that in real life there are limits to any relationship between two variables i.e. Q: Is this true? - Double the rate of traffic infringements = halve the rate of road deaths, 4 x traffic infringements = 1/4 the road deaths etc.

Conversely - what is the ratio of total estimated Police time on traffic vs non-traffic duties. What impact to actual criminal crime does an increase in traffic duty time have?

My job as a business analyst is essentially all about finding such optimal balances. I too would question the significance further increases of the rate of traffic infringements would have on a reduction in the road toll.

If anyone wants to post a reliable source of the annual number of traffic infringements vs. the annual road toll, I'd be happy to throw the two into a graph for all to see.

Another bit of interesting info would be the historical annual revenue from traffic infringements which I could adjust for inflation and plot again.

Oh, and maybe other developed countries road toll's vs number of traffic infringements or revenue collected which could then be adjusted to a per capita figure and then overlayed with governmental roading expenditure... that would really give some perspective on NZ vs. other countries.

The LTSA, ACC and NZ Police must collectively have hundreds of people with access to this sort of information - though I wonder when they crunch 'their numbers' what the goal is? It may have started out as savings lives and probably still is, though somewhere along the way did making a few dollars get unofficially added?

Hell, we know that sometimes it takes a certain number of deaths on a section of dangerous road before Government authorities will react with improvements to the road or cheaper speed limit reductions, so don't think for one minute that from a Government agency perspective - dollars and traffic deaths aren't linked.

In a nutshell, it's fair to say a number of Kiwis are now pretty suspicious and/or doubting the: thinking behind; and resulting policies that are arising in the traffic relm. We're told the road toll must come down, that it's too high and for that we see a doubling of the number of issued traffic infringements over a 10 year period to the point where 1.6 million were issued in a single year!

Here's my challenge (please don't actually do it):

A. Drive on your local motorway or main highway at 115-120kph - see how far you get before being busted.
B. Phone the Police for a "minor crime" i.e. a stolen car stereo, a spotted tagger in action etc - what is the response?

How many other Kiwi lives could be saved if the equivalent man-power and resources that the NZ police dedicate to traffic were deployed towards other Kiwi-killers? Think obesity related deaths, suicide etc.

[James Deuce]

The goal of any statistical analysis is simple. What does the client want?

Pure research is dead. Expecting "Government" to analyse and react to "pure" stats is a fantasy.

The only solution is revolution.

[Headbanger]

Obviously they will need new and improved plans of action in order to achieve any revised target from year to year.

Is everyone stating the road toll can't be lowered just assuming that no more road improvements, car improvements, and postive police action will ever happen?

Hell, Give me half an hour of power and I'll slash the road toll by a half.

[Macstar]

Obviously they will need new and improved plans of action in order to achieve any revised target from year to year.

Is everyone stating the road toll can't be lowered just assuming that no more road improvements, car improvements, and postive police action will ever happen?

Hell, Give me half an hour of power and I'll slash the road toll by a half.

No!, I/we are saying that what is up with the core focus of road toll reduction being on traffic infringements?! Why isn't more done on road improvements, car safety etc etc?. Oh wait, THAT COSTS MONEY AS OPPOSED TO THE MONEY RECEIVED FROM FINES!

If we all wait a little longer the bloody petrol price rises (another cost punishment) is more likely to reduce the road toll than anything else hapenning right now.

[Headbanger]

No!, I/we are saying that what is up with the core focus of road toll reduction being on traffic infringements?! Why isn't more done on road improvements, car safety etc etc?. Oh wait, THAT COSTS MONEY AS OPPOSED TO THE MONEY RECEIVED FROM FINES!

If we all wait a little longer the bloody petrol price rises (another cost punishment) is more likely to reduce the road toll than anything else hapenning right now.


Funny thing, We are all pretty much in agreement.......

[Pedrostt500]

we know that the government is revenue collecting through speeding fines, we know what the open road speed limit is, 100kmph, we know that there is a tollerance of 10% because most vechicles speedos do not read true for various reasons, if we are obsevant we have a reasonable idea where most of the speed traps are, in our local areas.
So ok if you get a speeding ticket for 112 kmph well i geuss that is your bad luck, you know the rules to the game, you know the risks you take, so dont bleat about it.
When you get on your bike and go out and ride at 180 kmph, hit a bridge and kill your self with no one else involved, the general public isnt that interested, ya mum might miss you so might your girlfriend, but when you cause the bus full of school children to plunge over the bridge and kill every one on the bus, then the Public wants you to be hung drawn and quartered.
Its not when our actions only endanger our selves that is the issue, it is when our actions endanger others, that is the main issue.
So we need to take responsibility for our own actions, and understand that there is a cost when we get it wrong.
speeding is easy to calibrate and there isnt a public road in NZ that isnt covered by a speed restriction, ie open road speed limit, the chioce is ours as drivers and riders if we choose to speed or not.

[spudchucka]

tag threatening to come and get me when you are back on duty on Monday.
You mean the "its booked in on Monday" one? No that's not a threat its just one of the typical excuses heard by the traffic enforces, as the "I was just" line, which was in the tag line too but for some reason has now disappeared.

[RDJ]

This says more about the stupidity of the average motorist than anything else.

Mmmm I think we're all familiar with your opinion of the rest of us.

[RDJ]

Here's my challenge (please don't actually do it):

B. Phone the Police for a "minor crime" i.e. a stolen car stereo - what is the response?


(Stereo stolen, windows broken, seats slashed etc.)

Quote - "Come to the station and fill out a report if you want but if it's under your insurance excess you might as well just buy another one".

Mmmkay.

[Titanium]

NZ got it easy ....

Victoria Australia

3 km over the limit you get a ticket
24 km over the limit you are walking, bike / car impounded
Demerit points on speed camera tickets
Most overhead bridges and tunnels have speed cameras attached to them.
Distance over time cameras in most states on main highways.
Victoria, the most taxed, regulated and policed state in Australia.
Alcohol interlock devices on drink drive offenders vehicle.
Rego on a bike $550 or more per year.
Police allowed bait you (entrapment) to "make" you infringe.

But ...

They do have CTP (compulsory third party insurance in your registration fee).
$750 fine for not driving with rego, therefore no CTP Insurance.
Bikes exempt from tolls on toll roads.
Drivers licencing more stringent than NZ.

[Ocean1]

If anyone wants to post a reliable source of the annual number of traffic infringements vs. the annual road toll, I'd be happy to throw the two into a graph for all to see.


The goal of any statistical analysis is simple. What does the client want?

Pure research is dead. Expecting "Government" to analyse and react to "pure" stats is a fantasy.

Douglas Adams postulated a sort of reverse-logic software in “The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul” whereby one defined the answers/results one wanted and the program defined the questions/variables required to produce them.

I strongly suspect our leadless fearlers, having cottoned on to the fundamentals of the basic protection racket, have carefully defined how data used to answer certain questions should be collected using just such. Any genuine attempt to use official data available on road stat’s (or anything else of a nature useful in describing how effectively our public purse is spent) would be well fooked. The data simply ain’t clean.


The only solution is revolution.

See you tonight at the rate-payers association meeting Jim.

Bring yer 12 gauge.

[CDFloss]

Never rode bikes back home (S.Africa), but it was normal to cruise on the highways at around 140-150k. Limit is 120, traffic cops wont do much until its over 130. I never got a ticket except once when I got pulled over doing 147k passing a truck. I only got the ticket cos I was in a bad mood, so made the cop walk the 100-odd meters to where I had eventually stopped. She wasn't happy either.
Also drove past a cop at 175, but he didn't even bother getting in his car (with a top speed of around 150; 1.3 VW Golf Chico).

But plenty of friends on bikes, who were admittedly hoons, and never heard of any of them getting caught. Licenses were pretty much optional depending on how much cash you had on you at the time.

Even road blocks were ok if you were over the limit and slipped the nice occifer a 50/100. (very foolish days/nights)

And of course there's no WOF system, and probably 40% of the cars on the road aren't roadworthy by any stretch of the imagination. Cardboard brake pads and vice-grip steering wheel anyone?

I'm not sure which is better, but it was pretty good having separate "real" police and then traffic police. The "real" cops could get on with more serious crime, and wouldn't give a shit if you went past them at whatever speed, and the revenue collecting was left to the traffic police (or as we used to call them; those who couldn't finish high school).

Ooh, and the cops back there didn't have radar equipment mounted in the cars either (scared me shitless when I first got here!) - so you only had to worry about static speed traps.

This was all 5 years ago though, and sounds as though its gone even more downhill since.

Overall the NZ cops are strict, which I don't have a problem with mostly. Its just the blatant revenue gathering that ticks me off. A friend got a ticket in the city the other day for going through an orange light!? He was on a bike, with a car on his tail, and was only meters away from the line when it switched, so thought nothing of going through. He asked the cop if it was dangerous, or where they draw the line; is it "x" meters or seconds etc - but the cop didn't answer and said "I just have to give you the ticket". :Police::stupid:

[scumdog]

I'm not sure which is better, but it was pretty good having separate "real" police and then traffic police. The "real" cops could get on with more serious crime, and wouldn't give a shit if you went past them at whatever speed, and the revenue collecting was left to the traffic police (or as we used to call them; those who couldn't finish high school). :

NZ use to be like that.

Then they gave Traffic Officers and Police the same uniform.

Now a lot of people expect traffic laws to go unenforced and a total focus on 'real crime'.

And these people also pull the 'good' bits out of other countries traffic laws, enforcement of same and road conditions - and expect NZ to be just like that.

Dreamin' frikkin Pollyannas the lot of 'em.

Gaaagh!:rolleyes:

[Headbanger]

Dreamin' frikkin Pollyannas the lot of 'em.

Gaaagh!:rolleyes:

Hand out any tickets to the Mongrel Mob today?

If so, Thank you for making the world a better place.:clap:

[scumdog]

Hand out any tickets to the Mongrel Mob today?

If so, Thank you for making the world a better place.:clap:

Nah, not today, (have done so though) 'cos I was too busy cruising in my Thunderbird after spending some of the money gleaned from the tax-payer on fuel, as gas is now $9:80 a gallon I suggest you tax-payers pay me more.

[PirateJafa]

Here's my challenge (please don't actually do it):

A. Drive on your local motorway or main highway at 115-120kph - see how far you get before being busted.

I don't know what it is with you mate - I cruise at that speed all the time (accelerate until she's shaking herself to bits, then cruuuuise...) and yet I've hardly had one of our fine law enforcement officers so much as blink bemusedly in my direction.

Maybe it's the inoffensive nature of the SMC tow truck?

[CookMySock]

A friend got a ticket in the city the other day for going through an orange light!? He was on a bike, with a car on his tail, and was only meters away from the line when it switched, so thought nothing of going through. So don't pay it. Do you think they will beat him in court over it ? Of course not. So do nothing.


DB

[scumdog]

So don't pay it. Do you think they will beat him in court over it ? Of course not. So do nothing.


DB

And DB will cough for all expenses involved with this too...

[CookMySock]

And DB will cough for all expenses involved with this too...And that is the way of it isn't it scumdog ? Trump up any old bullshit allegation, write out some ticket because you CANT actually book them for the thing that pissed you off, then let their fears run wild about losing in court, sooo they just pay the fine, knowing that the allegation is bullshit.

It's all cool for the officers on the coalface though innit ? They won't suffer the public backlash when one day enough-is-enough.

Or will they ? It would be nice to be involved in an industry where I could misbehave to the point of destruction of said industry, then just walk away. I could have a lot of fun with that.


DB

[scumdog]

And that is the way of it isn't it scumdog ? Trump up any old bullshit allegation, write out some ticket because you CANT actually book them for the thing that pissed you off, then let their fears run wild about losing in court, sooo they just pay the fine, knowing that the allegation is bullshit.

It's all cool for the officers on the coalface though innit ? They won't suffer the public backlash when one day enough-is-enough.

Or will they ? It would be nice to be involved in an industry where I could misbehave to the point of destruction of said industry, then just walk away. I could have a lot of fun with that.


DB

Hey, sounds just like me!!
Ticket 'em 'Driving in a manner likely to damage a road, $600' for hooning around town for 5km with one bare rim on the rear of their Honda.

Easier to do than book him for pissing me off - haven't found a charge yet that covers "Dragging me out of my warm office away from my coffee and do-nuts while Overhauling' is on TV"':shutup:

Meh, I feel you overemphasise your fear that all will rise up against those on the coal face when enough is enough - if that was the case they would have frequently done that in the M.O.T. days.

Of course if they DO rise up I'll walk away and get another job.

(Full time KB poster would be good!:woohoo:)

[spudchucka]

Meh, I feel you overemphasise your fear that all will rise up against those on the coal face when enough is enough -

Its just part of the "Edgecumbe goes International" prophecies. Tame Iti did it for Ruatoki and the Ureweras so stay tuned to CNN because you never know when the hillbilly hordes of the Rangitaiki plains will rise up and stick it to the man.

Yeee Haaaa!

[vamr]

This sounds interesting.. do tell us more !

Well not much to it. Because of the population/traffic density combined with the sheer amounts of scooters on the road enforcement of things such as red light running (chronic here) becomes very difficult.

I swear, some of the locals have balls of steel to be able to blindly ride through a red light, through fast moving traffic with the belief that they will brake. Same goes with overtaking without checking to see what's to their left.

Riding here isn't too bad but driving a car the first time nearly gave me a heart attack. My gf's continuous screaming next to me didn't help either. Subsequently, I learnt never to fall asleep in the back of cars, the one time I did I woke up to the sensation of the car fishtailing towards the side barrier because a scooter pulled out in front of us without looking.

As far as not stopping goes... well, the locals don't stop unless they have to. So if one knocks the other off a scooter and remain upright they'll most likely keep on going. And if a kind hearted good sumeritan pulls over to see if the downed rider is alright would most likely be pointed at as the culprit and sued. It's been known to happen before.

[CookMySock]

And if a kind hearted good sumeritan pulls over to see if the downed rider is alright would most likely be pointed at as the culprit and sued. haha :first: Classic!


DB

[vifferman]

Anyone who knows anything about statistics & mathematical modelling (and/or just has plain common sense) will know that in real life there are limits to any relationship between two variables etc etc.....
Great post, Sir!
People like simplistic models, and tend to think that way (cause and effect). The Gubmint using statistix would be a little more palatable, even if the models were simplistic, if they were reporting something a bit more meaningful, that related to carnage per vehicle mile traveled.
I suspect it's either that they're very stupid, or (more likely) it's deliberate obfuscation.
Fusking deliberate obfuskers that they are! :Pokey:

[vifferman]

If we all wait a little longer the bloody petrol price rises (another cost punishment) is more likely to reduce the road toll than anything else hapenning right now.
But of course the blardy Gubmint will take credit for it, and use it to justify some more draconian measures.

[CookMySock]

or (more likely) it's deliberate obfuscation.It's very easy to pull out some "statistics" to persuade any group of people to see it your way. The interesting question, is "why?"


DB

[Sanx]

It's very easy to pull out some "statistics" to persuade any group of people to see it your way. The interesting question, is "why?"

86.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
- Spike Milligan

[scumdog]

86.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
- Spike Milligan

So THAT'S what's on the spot on my bottom!!

[Coyote]

Just stupid.

They think stupid, they drive stupid, they are stupid.
Agreed

10C

[Grahameeboy]

So THAT'S what's on the spot on my bottom!!

Umm..it's not a spot SD, it's your left cheek....

[Macstar]

I diverge a little here (apologies) but would like to deliver one last lecture on causality and statistical relationships for anyone who cares:

A few weeks back on the news there was one of those stupid "latest breakthrough discoveries on health" where it was proclaimed that people who play golf are less likely to suffer from diabeties, heart disease etc. i.e. More golf = less health problems (a statistically provable relationship by some BS study).

Anyone like to take a COMMON SENSE GUESS on why this is full of s%^t?



Demograhically what members of society are most likely to play the sport of golf? Poor folk that eat shit food, don't have access to private healthcare and regular doctor's visits, gyms, health products etc? ANS: NO

Just because there is a relationship between two variables, doesn't necessarily mean one "causes" the other i.e. causality.



Anyway, another mind-twister: I am currently in the recruitment process to become a NZ firefighter - (career change number 3). Firefighters see some pretty messed up stuff (vehicle accidents) - so it will be interesting for me to come back to this thread in a couple of years (if I get in) and see if my views on speeding and traffic infringements have changed.

One thing I am sure that won't change is fines and penalties on "bad behaviour" with no acknowledgement or reward for "good behaviour". It's one-sided negative reinforcement for no other reason than making money.

[Forest]

It's very easy to pull out some "statistics" to persuade any group of people to see it your way. The interesting question, is "why?"

"Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” --Aaron Levenstein

[Lord Zod]

In Perth they are cracking down on fender eliminators. If you get caught with one you get a "yellow sticker" (defect notice) and I think the fine is $100-$150 and then you have to put the original fender back on and then send it over the "pits" to be inspected and that's another $60 (I think).

[vifferman]

In Perth they are cracking down on fender eliminators.
:eek5:












So, how many deaths and injuries is this radical piece of policing expected to prevent?

[scumdog]

In Perth they are cracking down on fender eliminators. If you get caught with one you get a "yellow sticker" (defect notice) and I think the fine is $100-$150 and then you have to put the original fender back on and then send it over the "pits" to be inspected and that's another $60 (I think).

Obviously waay more cops over there if they have time to look for that kind of shit....

[Lord Zod]

One of the guys here at work made up a fender that looks like the stock one for his ZX10R just so he wouldn't get busted by the cops.

[SPman]

Obviously waay more cops over there if they have time to look for that kind of shit....
Naah - cops over here generally just don't like bikes - any excuse to pull them over...Mind you, it doesn't help that a lot of riders are more like US squids - tricked up bling bikes but their road riding leaves a bit to be desired - bugger all real twisties over here, ya see!
Mind you, they've got some mean track riders.........

Just stay out of town and you're normally OK

[Sanx]

Currently outside the office I'm working in, which also houses some Aussie Federal Police, is a rather shiny ZX-9R. Judging by the business card taped to the seat, it's owned by an AFP Officer. Which would probaby explain why he gets away with having a tail tidy fitted ...

[Lord Zod]

I've heard that Aussie cops wake up in the morning and scream their war cry: "Hotdog! Powertrip time!".

And the writers of Xmen 3 stole a line from the cops too, when you try to run away from the cops they get on the loud speaker and say: "Don't you know how I am? I'm the juggernaut bitch!"

[rphenix]

Funny thing, 5 years in Aussie, I got pulled over and ticketed just once.

Come back to NZ and I get three tickets in 2 weeks.

When I was in Aus the only time I ever saw police was when they had the sirens on and were going somewhere in a hell of a hurry, or when 10 of em were manning a speed trap.


I think the main issue is kiwi's are shitheads.



Sorry:crybaby:

My boss got a ticket for 2km above speedlimit in victoria (camera)... which is crap in my opinion so maybe NZ could be worse!

[CDFloss]

Has anyone else noticed a crack-down on going through orange lights in Wellington city recently? At work there have been 2 guys ticketed, and one guy pulled over and warned for going through an orange, all within the last week or so.

I completely agree with jumping on guys going through reds, but its a bit dodge when the cops themselves can't/won't give a straight answer as to what the magic threshold is after which they warn/ticket you? They can't say that it's X-meters before the line, or X-seconds before the red... anyone know of this mythical value and what it may be?? :bleh::Police::devil2:

[Forest]

I diverge a little here (apologies) but would like to deliver one last lecture on causality and statistical relationships for anyone who cares:

A few weeks back on the news there was one of those stupid "latest breakthrough discoveries on health" where it was proclaimed that people who play golf are less likely to suffer from diabeties, heart disease etc. i.e. More golf = less health problems (a statistically provable relationship by some BS study).

Anyone like to take a COMMON SENSE GUESS on why this is full of s%^t?


Provided the study was properly constructed, a competent statistician would be able to remove the effects of underlying bias and hidden correlation.

That's the basis of fields like epidemiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology).

[Badjelly]

Provided the study was properly constructed, a competent statistician would be able to remove the effects of underlying bias and hidden correlation.

That's the basis of fields like epidemiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology).

Indeed, but all the statistical techniques in the world have trouble determining which is cause and which is effect, eg, is it:

More golf -> better health?
Better health -> more golf?

[CookMySock]

Has anyone else noticed a crack-down on going through orange lights in Wellington city recently? hold on, doesn't the law say you have to "stop if you are able to safely" for an orange light ? Which means if you are scootin' along at 50k and the light goes orange at the last second it is perfectly legal to skip through it..

My personal rule is, if I catch a trailing flash of red while running an orange, I cut that one too fine.

DB

[smokeyging]

Some of those darned lights change quick too. i suppose if we locked everything up and got stopped in the middle of an intersection we’d get ticketed for obstructing traffic too, laugh a minute is’nt it....

[CDFloss]

hold on, doesn't the law say you have to "stop if you are able to safely" for an orange light ? Which means if you are scootin' along at 50k and the light goes orange at the last second it is perfectly legal to skip through it..

My personal rule is, if I catch a trailing flash of red while running an orange, I cut that one too fine.

DB

Yup, sounds right to me. 2 of the guys I spoke to both said that the light was orange the whole way through, meaning they exited the other side of the intersection while it was still orange. Pretty fkn confusing if they cant clarify when exactly you're breaking the law enough to be ticketed (which by the way is a full $200 ticket, same amount as for going through red afaik!).


Some of those darned lights change quick too. i suppose if we locked everything up and got stopped in the middle of an intersection we’d get ticketed for obstructing traffic too, laugh a minute is’nt it....

Sure is. Funny thing is that its probably cheaper to hoon through the lights and get caught speeding than it is trying to be safe and going through an early orange. :rolleyes:

[swbarnett]

I've been around the world, and driven in many different countries.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with NZ isn't the enforcement of traffic laws but rather the absolutely shitty driving. Seriously, NZ has some of the worst drivers I have ever observed in first world countries.

I don't know why this but I expect it is a consequence of many separate factors e.g. inadequate driver training, easily obtained driver licenses, cheap import vehicles, entrenched hoon culture etc
Perhaps it's got something to do with the attitude that "The Government will look after me so why should I take responsibility for myself?"

[swbarnett]

NZ is a first-world country?
Buahahahahahahahaha

Tui time!
Last I heard NZ was a fourth-world country (one that used to be first-world and has reverted to third-world).

[swbarnett]

Nothing wrong with having a target, There is always room for improvement. The major reductions may have already been done, But you would slightly retarded to say that's good enough, Lets just sit on it.
I think you have an over inflated opinion of human infallibility. People make mistakes. This cannot be eliminated completely. No matter how good the education, roads etc. there will still be accidents. What is retarded is to hold us to a super human standard that is simply unachievable.